Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 29 October 2003 03:17 UTC
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:03:15 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>
cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)
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In-Reply-To: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com>
References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <Pine.LNX.4.60.0310270838030.13643@shiva1.cac.washington.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com>
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Dave, (distro trimmed to IMAA and IETF lists; I hope we can soon get rid of the latter too). One large problem with the charter draft (I'm too tired to know if there are small ones)... If one is going to consider internationalization of email addresses in a way that permits them to move through the mail protocol in some traditional Unicode encoding (e.g., UTF-8), then I believe that we at least need to entertain the notion that what we are going after is "mailbox", rather than "local part". Yes, the hard work lies in the local part. But, to me, the goal is to have an I18N presentation form that is also carried over the protocol. That implies that one should be able to have local-part-i18n@FQDN-i18n (UTF-8 on both sides or, if you prefer, throughout the string (since the coding of "@" in UTF-8 is the same as it is in ASCII) rather than, e.g., local-part-i18n@FQDN-IDNA (UTF-8 on the LHS, but punycode for any domain labels that use non-ASCII). Again, the goal is that this should be natural for the user, using the user's script (or the script of the recipient), both in protocol transactions and in the case of "My email address is xx@yy." in the body of a message... where the only parts of that sentence (appropriately translated) which are a ASCII characters are the @-sign and _maybe_ the TLD (whether the TLD can be non-ASCII is presumably an ICANN problem unless the user interface does something akin to draft-klensin-idn-tld-01.txt). If the email address the user sees _looks_ like local script in the local part, but is forced into ASCII/punycode in the domain part, I think the users will assume that we have been smoking something. And, arguably, they will be right --punycode is a way of transporting internationalized data so it doesn't foul up other systems or cause DNS damage. But, from the user standpoint, however much users hate, e.g., a string representing a name transliterated into Roman characters, they will hate looking at punycode-- which has no mnemonic value at all for non-Roman scripts-- even more. So please don't prejudge the question of what happens to the domain part (right hand side) of an email address in the charter: this set of issues should at lease be considered very carefully. john --On Monday, October 27, 2003 16:19 -0800 Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote: > Folks, > > On the theory that discussions go better when they have a > concrete deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a > proposed working group. > > The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it > might not look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the > following text attempts to specify the problem domain in the > narrowest feasible form that is valid. If anyone thinks the > scope is too narrow, they need to explain why. > > > > DRAFT CHARTER > > Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) > --------------------------------- > > The <local-part> portion of RFC2822 and <Local-part> portion > of RFC2821 mail addresses are restricted to a subset of ASCII. > This poses a fundamental barrier for users needing mail > addresses to be expressed in a richer set of characters, such > as Latin characters with diacriticals and the many Asian > characters. The goal of the current work is to add local-part > support for these additional characters, while preserving the > large, installed base of ASCII usage. > > The group will take: > > draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt > draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt > draft-duerst-iri-04.txt > > as input to discussions. > > The group will pay particular attention to barriers to > adoption and utility, as well as any impact the new scheme > might have on the existing base of Internet mail usage. > > > Milestones > ---------- > > Nov, 03: BOF > > Dec, 03: WG chartered > > Feb, 03: Initial draft of working group specifications. > > Jun, 03: Specifications submitted for IETF approval > > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker <dcrocker-at-brandenburg-dot-com> > Brandenburg InternetWorking <www.brandenburg.com> > Sunnyvale, CA USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253> > > >
- FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IE… Patrik Fältström
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Keith Moore
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Pete Resnick
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Marc Blanchet
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Keith Moore
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Mark Crispin
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… WJCarpenter
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Aronson
- Re: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Add… James Seng
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Marc Blanchet
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Pete Resnick
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Zefram
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Roy Badami
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Crispin
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Crispin
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Abhijit Menon-Sen
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Mark Crispin
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Mark Crispin
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Zefram
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Marc Blanchet
- RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Margaret.Wasserman
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… John C Klensin
- Location of the IMAA list (was: RE: FYI: BOF on I… Paul Hoffman / IMC
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Valdis.Kletnieks
- RE: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Madan Ganesh Velayudham
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Davis
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Dave Crocker
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… John Cowan
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… John Cowan
- Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email… James Seng
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… James Seng
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… vinton g. cerf
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Crocker
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Aronson
- RE: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Add… Michel Suignard
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Tan Tin Wee
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Steve Dyer
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… niket
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Vernon Schryver
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Markus Stumpf
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… jfcm
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Dave Aronson
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… John Stracke
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Jean-Jacques Puig
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Markus Stumpf
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Markus Stumpf
- Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: IEA Bottom Line Jeffrey Altman
- IEA Bottom Line (was: Re: FYI: BOF on Internation… John C Klensin
- Re: IEA Bottom Line John C Klensin
- Re: IEA Bottom Line Jeffrey Altman
- Re: IEA Bottom Line John C Klensin
- LEA Bottom LIne (was Re: IEA Bottom Line) masataka ohta