Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.txt
Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> Fri, 09 March 2012 00:10 UTC
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Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 16:10:11 -0800
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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To: Naiming Shen <naiming@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-ping-ext-04.txt
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I remain confused. ICMP doesn't use ports; it uses IDs, and the ID space is not registered by IANA, so there's no meaning to a reserved ICMP echo ID value. As I noted, there is a specific value - not legacy, but current utility - in sending TCP or UDP packets to specific ports to test reachability. I don't see any value in reserving a port here. Joe On 3/8/2012 4:04 PM, Naiming Shen wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > some replies inline, > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:29 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > >> Hi, all, >> >> On 3/5/2012 11:46 PM, Naiming Shen wrote: >> ... >>> The previous version of this draft didn't have this well-known port defined, and we got >>> many comments on how to distinguish the packets with new features from the general >>> traceroute/ping packets on the Internet, as you mentioned below, it needs more deeper >>> packet inspection. With this well-known port, a provider's internal use of certain feature with >>> this extension can be more easily sort out from normal trace/ping packets (before the deeper >>> packet inspection). >> >> A ping (ICMP echo request) message has no port. It has an Identifier field that is used "like a port in TCP or UDP to identify a session" [RFC792], but it identifies a session not a protocol. I.e., it should change for subsequent echo requests, so this should not be fixed at a specific value. > > Actually the current implementations I have looked, this ID of ICMP echo request > is used to identify a ping process in a multi-threaded system such as linux/bsd. It > is fixed during the session, which the "Sequence number" field changes with each > packet. In this draft, we suggest if the implementation uses this fixed ID in the > ICMP echo-request, the multi-thread process-id information can be moved to the > firest 64 octets, which is reserved for private use. > >> >> Traceroute uses ICMP with varying TTLs, so a port number is equally meaningless there. > > For traceroute application, it's the same usage for the ID field as above. > >> >> Sec 5 of this doc redefines how ping works - when it reaches the valid destination, an echo response is sent back. That's how ping knows it works, and how traceroute knows to stop. > > That is true. But for udp traceroute stops or udp ping reaches the destination, > it uses the property of either the destination port is not open, or the port is open > but the source address of the udp packet does not match with any of the socket. > Here in this draft is a little different, the port is a well-known, and is intended to > receive this ping or traceroute packet, thus we just emphasis that so there is no > confusion. > >> >> If you intend on using these inside UDP or TCP segments, you need to be much more specific about what you mean by 'traceroute/ping' - notably, citing an RFC or other spec on the variant you're using. However, it would be important to first make the case that this information is relevant for those protocols. > > This is only applied to traceroute/ping type of the applications. Although there is no > specific RFCs to cover those applications, we can certainly add more text to describe > them more clearly. > >> >> However, why would you then want to limit those protocols to a specific UDP or TCP port number? their value is in being used to test various port numbers that are blocked (or not) along various paths - e.g., to find out that HTTP isn't blocked all the way to a destination, or if so on what hop. > > It's just an option offered by this extension, it's not a must. As mentioned above, > this is for providers to distinguish new services using this extension from the trace > and ping packets of legacy usage. > > thanks. > - Naiming > >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >
- [Int-area] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute… Naiming Shen
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Naiming Shen
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Naiming Shen
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Naiming Shen
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Naiming Shen
- Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-shen-traceroute-… Joe Touch