Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures?
Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> Mon, 12 January 2015 09:50 UTC
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 10:50:29 +0100
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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To: Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, 'Richard Barnes' <rlb@ipv.sx>
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Subject: Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures?
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Hi Guys, Happy New year! Should I interpret the silence as "no interest"? Since it has been proved beyond doubt that there's are no unsolved/unsolvable technical issues using the principles of JCS, communities working with "business messaging" will most likely (due to the absence of a standard) all develop their own take of clear-text signatures. This is perfectly OK but reduces the value of the great JOSE work which is the rationale for considering a clear-text alternative as a JOSE.Next task. It's easy to get some feeling for JCS; you can test it on-line at: https://mobilepki.org/jcs Recently I updated JCS to use the same ECDSA signature encoding as JOSE/WebCrypto/XML DSig rather than the encoding used by OpenSSL, Oracle JCE and CMS. Standards? The more the better :-) A subset (only public keys are supported) but normalization-wise 100% JCS-compliant Python implementation shows how painfully simple JCS is: https://code.google.com/p/openkeystore/source/browse/python/trunk/src/org/webpki/json There's no benefit with sorting properties since predictable serialization order is anyway something lots of people have requested. Humans <> Computers. Cheers, Anders On 2014-12-21 06:21, Anders Rundgren wrote: > On 2014-12-20 23:55, Jim Schaad wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jose [mailto:jose-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren >>> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:16 AM >>> To: Richard Barnes >>> Cc: jose@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? >>> >>> On 2014-12-20 18:33, Richard Barnes wrote: >>> > Clear-text signing requires c14n or some other representation-fixing. >>> > If you have proposals for at least one of those, this may be viable. >>> >>> As mentioned in the "prospectus" there are multiple ways ahead. Some kind >>> of canonicalization scheme is undoubtedly one of them. >>> >>> > Relying on implementation quirks is not OK. >>> >>> My specific proposal does not build on implementation quirks but on an >>> explicitly required serialization method which doesn't "scramble" data. >>> This may or may not be supported by the target JSON parser. Since JSON >>> parsers usually are pretty simple I don't see this as a insurmountable >> obstacle: >>> https://openkeystore.googlecode.com/svn/resources/trunk/docs/jcs.html#Int >>> eroperability >> >> Based on a quick scan of this, all we need to do is to define a new parser, >> a new data format (need to keep both the original text and the value for >> some types) and a new serializer and we are home free. >> >> I don't think that is a viable proposal. > > The floating point issues may be a show-stopper from a standardization > point of view but it has few practical implications since the target for > JCS is security-protocols (its "cradle") and payments which rarely depends > on floating point data. 99% "coverage" seems good enough :-) > > There's no need for new parser, a minute update of existing such may be required in some cases. > A quick scan of programmer hangouts like "stackoverflow" shows that quite a few > people ask for JSON parsers that honor property order regardless of the fact that > JSON doesn't in any way require that so such an update have uses outside of signatures. > > As an exercise you could visualize the following counter-signed message in JWS: > https://openkeystore.googlecode.com/svn/wcpp-payment-demo/trunk/docs/messages.html#UserAuthorizesTransaction > Well, to make it easier, here it is: > > { > "payload":"<base64>", > "protected":"<base64>", > "header":<base64>, > "signature":"<base64>" > } > > Now consider how you would communicate that to a payment community who > to date have been using XML. > > Somewhat related: Although Google's U2F is incompatible with "gold standards" > like ISO 7816 and PKCS #11/NSS, it has gotten the biggest interest I have > ever seen in this space. The "traditional" software industry bogged down by > legacy designs and ideas would never be able to pull off such a stunt. > > Anders > "almost" standards-compliant > >> Jim >> >> >>> >>> Targeting the lowest common denominator is the governing standards >>> strategy. >>> IMO, this [often] thwarts innovation and creates lousy systems so I don't >> care >>> :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Anders >>> >>> >>>> >>>> --Richard >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Anders Rundgren >>> <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com >>> <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi List, >>>> In theory JOSE is done since we have key containers, as well as >> signature >>> and encryption constructs. >>>> >>>> In reality it is not because the topic I raised a long time ago >> namely the >>> ability to sign clear-text >>>> JSON data in a similar fashion like in XML DSig simply isn't going >> away: No, >>> it is not only yours >>>> truly who is into JSON clear-text signing although it seems that >> everybody >>> is dealing with this >>>> issue in quite different ways. This may actually only be good since >> then >>> there are some >>>> real-world (tested) schemes to select from. AFAICT they all have >> (even >>> including my own take >>>> on the subject...), clearly identifiable pros and cons. >>>> >>>> The rationale is simple: Documentation, Validation, Development and >>> Debugging of >>>> complex JSON messages becomes easier if the content is provided in >>> clear. >>>> >>>> There could be justification for IETF taking on such a work-item. >>>> >>>> Anders >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________ >>>> jose mailing list >>>> jose@ietf.org <mailto:jose@ietf.org> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/__listinfo/jose >>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> jose mailing list >>> jose@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose >> >
- [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Anders Rundgren
- Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Richard Barnes
- Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Anders Rundgren
- Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Jim Schaad
- Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Anders Rundgren
- [jose] Implementation details. Was: JOSE.Next - C… Anders Rundgren
- Re: [jose] JOSE.Next - Clear-Text Signatures? Anders Rundgren