Re: [Lsr] Seeking feedback to the revised draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute

[Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]>]

> Flows among micro-services are very short.

While that can be true - there is nowhere in the document a restriction or
even a warning that this solution is aiming for short lived flows only and
that users should be well aware about drastic nature of proposed
mechanism to their established flows.

In one of the companies I worked for average  TCP flow duration was
anywhere from 8-18 hours and it was a very drastic event for the user to
loose it in the middle of the day.  Various means where taken and applied
to protect such sessions from any form of disconnects.

I think we are shooting here with the wrong weapon to the target.

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:23 PM Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> Your link to Traefik  adds more reasons why “Site index and preference”
> should be distributed by IGP:
>
>    - Site index and preferences for a cluster of micro-service instances
>    are rarely dynamically changed. Most of those values are configured.
>    Therefore, the oscillation is minimal.
>    - Flows among micro-services are very short. Put less requirements to
>    flow affinity.
>    -
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:00 AM
> *To:* Gyan Mishra <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <[e-mail]>; Linda Dunbar <
> [e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] Seeking feedback to the revised
> draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute
>
>
>
>
>
> And just to provide a sound alternative to the objective of this work.
>
>
>
> Please consider using Traefik - https://traefik.io/
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftraefik.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb7985d17f6cf4691516c08d9d683cb4c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637776683827234342%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=DTSgF4GOdBXmJmF18s%2BhPYpod1g2wul6z%2BY6Gi6a%2F14%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 11:56 AM Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Gyan,
>
>
>
> I see what the draft is trying to do now. /* I did not even consider this
> for the reason described below. */
>
>
>
> But what you wrote requires little correction:
>
>
>
> "So now the server you are on gets overloaded and a site cost gets
> advertised in the IGP at which point the connection receives a TCP reset"
>
>
>
> if you *s/connection/all connections/* then you quickly realize that what
> is proposed here is a disaster.
>
>
>
> Breaking all existing flows going to one LB to suddenly timeout and all go
> to the other LB(s) is never a technique any one would seriously deploy in a
> production network.
>
>
>
> Leave alone that doing that has potential to immediately overload the
> other LB(s)/server(s) too.
>
>
>
> For me the conclusion is that IGP transport level is not the proper layer
> to address the requirement.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 7:05 AM Gyan Mishra <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Les
>
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> My thoughts are that the context of the draft is based on an Anycast VIP
> address of a server which is proximity based load balancing and not
> necessarily ECMP/UCMP and only if the proximity is the same for multiple
> paths to the Anycast VIP would there be a ECMP/UCMP possibility.
>
>
>
> Let’s say if it’s proximity based and one path is preferred, the flow will
> take that path.  So now the server you are on gets overloaded and a site
> cost gets advertised in the IGP at which point the connection receives a
> TCP reset and flow re-establishes on the alternate path based on the site
> cost and remains there until the server goes down or  gets overloaded or a
> better path comes along.
>
>
>
> For ECMP case, ECMP has flow affinity so the flow will stay on the same
> path long lived until the connection terminates.
>
>
>
> So now in ECMP case the flow hashed to a path and maintains its affinity
> to that path.  Now all of sudden the server gets overloaded and we get a
> better site cost advertised.  So now the session terminates on current path
> and establishes again on the Anycast VIP new path based on the site cost
> advertised.
>
>
>
> The failover I believe results in the user refreshing their browser which
> is better than hanging.
>
>
>
> As the VIP prefix is the only one that experiences reconvergence on new
> path based on site cost if there is any instability with the servers that
> will be reflected to the IGP Anycast prefix as well.
>
>
>
> Is that a good or bad thing.  I think if you had to pick your poison as
> here the issue Linda is trying to solve is a server issue but leveraging
> the IGP to force re-convergence when the server is in a half baked state
> meaning it’s busy and connections are being dropped or very slow QOE for
> end user.  If you did nothing and let it ride the the user would be stuck
> on a bad connection.
>
>
>
> So this solution dynamically fixed the issue.
>
>
>
> As far as oscillation that is not a big deal as you are in a much worse
> off state connected to a dying server on its last leg as far as memory and
> CPU.
>
>
>
> This solution I can see can apply to any client / server connection and
> not just 5G and can be used by enterprises as well as SP for their
> customers to have an drastically improved QOE.
>
>
>
> I saw some feedback on the TLV and I think once that is all worked out I
> am in favor of advancing this draft.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:16 PM Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Gyan –
>
>
>
> The difference between ECMP and UCMP is not significant in this discussion.
>
> I don’t want to speak for Robert, but for me his point was that IGPs can
> do “multipath” well – but this does not translate into managing flows.
>
> Please see my other responses on this thread.
>
>
>
> Thanx.
>
>
>
>     Les
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 5:26 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <[e-mail]>; Linda Dunbar <
> [e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] Seeking feedback to the revised
> draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> Here are a few examples of UCMP drafts below used in core and data center
> use cases.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-15
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bess-evpn-unequal-lb-15&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb7985d17f6cf4691516c08d9d683cb4c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637776683827234342%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4UNvQ%2BYX070LVrBejcmpx86pXIzfLLnHVyPYde16Nc0%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mohanty-bess-weighted-hrw-02
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-mohanty-bess-weighted-hrw-02&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb7985d17f6cf4691516c08d9d683cb4c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637776683827234342%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Miu9gbzoB9tHmhoNLlO9HnlgPa%2BePOAgyDShwVzCY%2Fw%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-link-bandwidth
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-idr-link-bandwidth&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb7985d17f6cf4691516c08d9d683cb4c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637776683827234342%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=GMZE2%2Fv0HjRkMQhwbEk9m4CwYnXFCJ9PyU%2BmuNGMEmE%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-mohanty-bess-ebgp-dmz&data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7Cb7985d17f6cf4691516c08d9d683cb4c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637776683827390551%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=or%2Bp8uMaRm0a2v7GcCANIy1TijsxaGArdDB3rhLplwM%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There are many use cases in routing for unequal cost load balancing
> capabilities.
>
>
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:23 PM Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Linda,
>
>
>
> > IGP has been used for the Multi-path computation for a long time
>
>
>
> IGP can and does ECMP well. Moreover, injecting metric of anycast server
> destination plays no role in it as all paths would inherit that external to
> the IGP cost.
>
>
>
> Unequal cost load balancing or intelligent traffic spread has always been
> done at the application layer *for example MPLS*
>
>
>
> Thx a lot,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 8:18 PM Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> Please see inline in green:
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 1:00 PM
> *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [Lsr] Seeking feedback to the revised
> draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute
>
>
>
> Hi Linda,
>
>
>
> *[LES:] It is my opinion that what you propose will not achieve your goals
> – in part because IGPs only influence forwarding on a per packet basis –
> not a per flow/connection basis.*
>
> *[Linda] Most vendors do support flow based ECMP, with Shortest Path
> computed by attributes advertised by IGP.*
>
>
>
> I am with Les here. ECMP has nothing to do with his point.
>
>
>
> [Linda] Les said that “IGP only influence forwarding on a per packet
> basis”.  I am saying that vendors supporting “forwarding per flow” with
> equal cost computed by IGP implies  that forwarding on modern routers are
> no longer purely per packet basis.
>
>
>
>
>
> Draft says:
>
>
>
> *When those multiple server instances share one IP address (ANYCAST), the
> transient network and load conditions can be incorporated in selecting an
> optimal path among server instances for UEs.*
>
>
>
> So if we apply any new metric to indicate load of a single anycast address
> how is this going to help anything ?
>
>
>
> [Linda] The “Load” or “Aggregated Site Cost” is to differentiate multiple
> paths with the same routing distance.
>
>
>
>
>
> You would need a mechanism where the network is smart and say per src-dst
> tuple or more spreads the traffic. IGP does not play that game today I am
> afraid.
>
> [Linda] There is one SRC and multiple paths to one DST. IGP has been used
> for the Multi-path computation for a long time.
>
>
>
> Thank you, Linda
>
>
>
> Thx a lot,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email [e-mail] <[e-mail]>*
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
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> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email [e-mail] <[e-mail]>*
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
>