[Ltru] (no subject)
tex <textexin@xencraft.com> Wed, 28 May 2008 18:34 UTC
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Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:34:22 -0700
From: tex <textexin@xencraft.com>
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Peter, Actually, I have the research book of Berlin and Kay. I thought I might have been the only one in the world to have read it. But you make quite a leap in the last para when you equate the focal point to the tag. Making the ideal equivalent to the tag, then makes everything non-ideal excluded, when in fact until now it is a superset. (Which is what this discussion revolves around.) Rather, I would think you would make the ideal a subtag. In fact standardizing the subtag for the most representative dialect would then help define the more general case while not limiting it. So if N1 is used to represent number 1 or best case, then you can identify best cases for each language and still have primary tags be more inclusive; de-N1 Also people can then specify if they want the most general or the most representative languages for langs like zh. tex > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Constable [ > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:53 AM > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Does 'de' really mean "only standard German"? > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [ > On Behalf > > Of Randy Presuhn > > > Perhaps this would be a question for > ietf-languages@iana.org, but I'll > > ask it here: how then would one tag the "Stadtsprache" > (city dialect) > > of Mannheim? > > While clearly not "standard German", it seems quite a > stretch to lump > > it with the Pfaelzisch one might run into among the elderly in the > > countryside. > > I don't have an answer but rather another question -- a thought > experiment: > > The colour space is homogeneously continuous and for that reason we > can describe individual colour varieties with fine granularity as an > array of integers over some range. (I suppose in principle we could > use real numbers instead of > integers.) But suppose it were not always continuous and certainly not > homogeneous: how would we create a system to describe colour > varieties? How would we define basic, commonly-used concepts such as > RED? In terms of a range or in terms of a particular, focal target > colour? > > It happens that there was some linguistic research done related to > this in the 1960s by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay; this is described in > their book _Basic Color Terms_. First, they found certain regularities > regarding the basic colour terms found in different languages, but > then they also looked at how those basic terms could be defined. It > turns out that if you define them in terms of ranges over the > spectrum, there are no regularities, either across languages or across > speakers within any given language. On the other hand, if you ask > individuals to select a best example for a given basic colour term out > of a large set of candidate colours (they used a standardized chart of > 320 small colour chips), then there is a high degree of regularity > across individuals both within a single language and also across > languages. > > Now, there has been subsequent research suggesting that there may be > human-physiological factors contributing to that regularity. I don't > know of any such factors contributing to how we define concepts > _language X_ or _language Y_, and I doubt any such physiological > factors exist. Even so, I find the situation with colour terms to be a > useful analogue for considering how to define language concepts: it > suggests to me that we would probably have an easier time attaching > labels like "de" to certain focal points in the plane rather than > trying to define them in terms of some specific set of limits. > > Now, _defining_ those basic labels in terms of particular focal points > doesn't mean that we never need to have labels > (tags) for varieties other than the focal points -- of course, we do. > It just means that we face a certain challenge in devising tags for > those other varieties. In particular, it's likely that we might > encounter some issues in arriving at a single consensus on a tag for > particular non-focal > varieties: because there are no regularities in how people define the > boundaries, one will consider a particular variety to be a variant of > X while another will prefer to consider it a variant of Y. > > So, let me come back to Randy's question. What's the best way to > define something like "de"? If you're a contributor to Ethnologue, > then a very reasonable answer is probably Standard High German -- the > focal value (best example). How should something like Stadtsprache be > tagged? Well, quite possibly with a tag of the form de-X (for some X), > though it should be recognized in advance that there may be some > debate as to whether it shouldn't rather use a tag of the form Y-Z for > some other ISO 639 code element Y. > > > > Peter > mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org]
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