Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - multi-party
Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Mon, 26 August 2019 17:04 UTC
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - multi-party
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:03:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-channel - multi-party
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Hi Gunnar, >Bringing the "label" discussion into the right thread: > >The discussion about the use of "label" for a visible representation of >the source of text belonged of course to the multi-media aspects, and >came from this proposal for text in a new section 4.5 > >"Presentation should be made so that the source of the real-time text is >perceivable and the relative time relations in the conversation approximately presented. >The "label" attribute may be used to convey a presentable source." > > As I said, I discovered that currently "label" is required in draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 > section 6.4 to be identical in both directions. > > And you commented: > "If we want to change the identical requirement we need to raise it in RTCWEB. > > It's probably a good idea to also ask them if they think 'label' is good for indicating source in the first place." > > Yes, I think it is good to raise the issue in RTCWEB. > >"label" could possibly be made good for indicating source in a similar way as CNAME is used for that in RTCP. >It is not guaranteed to be unique, so it cannot be part of the protocol for appending incoming T140blocks to the >right real-time text stream. That is instead the task for the stream-id. > >Without the "label" used for this purpose, we have no mechanism for knowing the source of a T.140 data channel. Correct. Just to clarify, though: as each data channel will use a unique SCTP port/stream-id, it will be possible to associate each T140block with a data channel. The "label" would be used to provide additional information (e.g., source) about a data channel, but it is not needed to determine on which data channel a T140block is received. >But we also need to consider what happens when a T140 data channel breaks because of network problems and >is then reconnected. Can the stream-id be reused for the reconnection, so that we can continue placing the new >incoming text where it belongs? I would need to double-check what the specs say, but if the stream-id change I assume there will a new offer/answer exchange to indicate that. >Or do we need to create a unique source attribute and add a place for it to the protocol? If we indicate the source in the SDP it is not needed. (In future, if a single data channel will be used for multiple sources, then you obviously need something in the protocol - as we will indicate in the NOTE). Regards, Christer Den 2019-08-26 kl. 11:15, skrev Christer Holmberg: > Hi, > >> I can accept to not include "the T140 data channel data format". > > Note that we are not restricting how the problem can be solved in the future. It's a note, and the sentence contains an "e.g.," in the so we are just giving examples :) > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > > Den 2019-08-26 kl. 09:33, skrev Christer Holmberg: > > Hi Gunnar, > > > >>>>> So, what about the following text: > >>>>> > >>>>> "If an implementation needs to support multi-party scenarios, > >>>>> implementations (both clients and servers) need to support multiple > >>>>> simultaneous T.140 data channels, one for each source. At the time of > >>>>> writing this document, this is true even in scenarios where each participants > >>>>> communicate via a centralized conference server. The reason is that, unlike > >>>>> RTP media, WebRTC data channels and the T.140 protocol do not support the > >>>>> indication of the source of T.140 data. > >>>> "participants" s.b. "participant" > >>> Will fix. > >>> > >>>>> NOTE: Future extensions to T.140, or to the T140block, might allow > >>>>> indicating the source of T.140 data, in which case it might be possible to use > >>>>> a single T.140 data channel to transport data from multiple sources." > >>>> Should also "the T140 data channel data format" be among the options for where to place the source information? > >>> What is the "data format"? Isn't the T140block the data format? > >> > >> Currently yes, but a more complex format could be defined, e.g. with a > >> structure containing a source indicator and the T140blocks with some > >> separator or structure. Of coulse it would be best to have that > >> structure in place already from the beginning in this draft, so that > >> there will be no interworking problems when a source address is > >> introduced. Or at least a specified way to extend the format. > > Yes. But, again, that work would have to be done elsewhere. It is not within the charter of MMUSIC to define media plane formats. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > -- > ----------------------------------------- > Gunnar Hellström > Omnitor > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > +46 708 204 288 > > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic -- ----------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellström Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se +46 708 204 288
- [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-us… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Belling, Thomas (Nokia - DE/Munich)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… R.Jesske
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Draft new: draft-holmberg-mmusic-t14… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-data-ch… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Roni Even (A)
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] draft-holmberg-mmusic-t140-usage-dat… Paul Kyzivat