Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities
Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com> Thu, 10 March 2016 20:46 UTC
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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>, "Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com)" <ekr@rtfm.com>
References: <CABcZeBO4FEACT851653xA5=onorvPe30Hoc6Lp79KRftRtoZGA@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E591A9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E59A2E@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CABcZeBMfvvhQmF4+G+9fXfDHq50caBqP3wG=nVNVTD-m0=4iew@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E5BC45@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CABcZeBMZ2Z9Rgzx_4FWKyEE51SC=DXC18Kwzqah6L1xxX311BQ@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E5C221@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CABcZeBOe8SPa0XBuaah+dFWGWx318xmLKosA4SsPjTZ_iYuLbg@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E787FB@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <56DCAF02.5010200@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E81B18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E85B18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <56DE4CAB.7070503@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37E90164@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
From: Flemming Andreasen <fandreas@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:46:21 -0500
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Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities
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On 3/7/16 11:41 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi Flemming, > > Note that I did the change to "specified by" only when talking about > media. Parameters etc are still "associated with" m- lines. > Right - overall I think readability is improved here, especially where you changed "associated" to "corresponding". I'd still prefer keeping "associated" when you refer to "m=" lines, but in the interest of moving forward, I won't insist on that if EKR is happy with the current text and nobody else complains either. Thanks -- Flemming (as individual) > Regards, > > Christer > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Flemming Andreasen <mailto:fandreas@cisco.com> > Sent: 08/03/2016 05:53 > To: Christer Holmberg <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Paul > Kyzivat <mailto:pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>; mmusic@ietf.org > <mailto:mmusic@ietf.org>; Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) > <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com> > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities > > Hi Christer > > I don't think the change from "associated with ...'m=' line" to > "specified by ...'m=' line" is a good change (and I thought you were > against that based on your earlier e-mail too, but the draft I pulled > from github seems to have made that change). Attributes and other > parameters are not specified by 'm=' lines; they are indeed "associated" > with them (or more generally speaking they can be seen as part of the > media description which is another way of referring to 'm=' line and its > various "associated" parameters). > > I realize the term "associated" is used a lot in the current document > and it doesn't improve overall readability, however I think technical > accuracy needs to come first. I don't see the current usage as being > overloaded, but I'm certainly open to alternative text suggestions as > long as they are technically sound and we can get everybody (that cares) > to agree on them. > > Lastly, given the substantial amount of work the primary author has put > into this document, incl. trying to accommodate input from many > different people, going through multiple WGLCs, etc., I would also ask > people to be mindful of how much an issue they really see here. > > Thanks > > -- Flemming > > > On 3/7/16 6:36 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've compiled a new version of draft-bundle, where I've replaced > "associated" in a number of places. > > > > I've not submitted the draft yet, but you can see the changes on github: > > > > https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-sdp-bundle > > > > NOTE: I have not yet added the additional text requested by Ekr - > this version only does the terminology changes. > > > > Ekr/Paul/Flemming, please indicate whether you are ok or not with > the changes. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer > Holmberg > > Sent: 7. maaliskuuta 2016 10:32 > > To: Paul Kyzivat; mmusic@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities > > > > Hi, > > > >>>> S1. > >>>> The offerer and answerer [RFC3264] use the BUNDLE extension to > >>>> negotiate the BUNDLE addresses, one for the offerer (offerer > BUNDLE > >>>> address) and one for the answerer (answerer BUNDLE address), > to be > >>>> used for receiving the bundled media associated with a > BUNDLE group. > >>>> > >>>> S 5. > >>>> All media associated with a BUNDLE group share a single > 5-tuple, i.e. > >>>> in addition to using a single address:port combination all > bundled > >>>> media MUST be transported using the same transport-layer > >>>> protocol > >>> In those cases the text talks about the MEDIA, not SDP parameters. > I am happy to change it to something else, but I am not sure whether > we could say "media attached to the bundle group", "media that appears > in the bundle group" or "media that is a member of the bundle group"? > >> How about "media {described / identified / specified} by the bundle > group"? > > I've probably tried that already in the past too, but if people are > ok with it, then fine... :) > > > > ----------------- > > > >>>>> - You suggest saying "attribute appearing in m- line". Such > terminology has been used in the past, and I was asked to change it, > because attributes are not part of m- lines. > >>>> I would recommend the JSEP terminology of "appearing within an m= > section" > >>>> In any case, the problem is the use of "associated" here. Feel free > >>>> to use another term that's not "associated" > >>> "m= line" is used throughout the document, so I don't want to > change that to "m= section", because I don't think it can be done with > a simple search/replace. > >>> > >>> At one point I think I suggested "media description", which would > include both the "m=" line and the attributes. Then we could have said > "within the media description", "add to the media description", etc. > But, people weren't happy with that either. > >>> > >>> Whatever change I do, it has to be something that EVERYONE agrees > with. Otherwise, when X reviews the document, I may end up having to > change it all again... > >>> > >>> I know that at least Paul and Flemming have had comments on the > terminology, so I'd like to get some input from them. > >> Yes, I was one of the people that had problems with prior terminology. > >> And "associated" seemed to work at the time. > >> > >> I agree that now we do have a problem with "associated" being used > in other contexts to mean something different, and the result again > being confusing. > >> > >> I am not attached to "associated", as long as we end up with > something clear, that uses the same terminology consistently for a > concept, and clearly different terminology for *different* concepts. > But it is hard. > >> So I share Christer's desire to be conservative about making > changes now. > >> > >> So I guess I would prefer to keep with "associated with an m= line" > >> for attributes and the like that follow an m-line, > > I agree, and at this point I will actually refuse to change that. > But, if someone else wants to take the pen, then fine... > > > >> and something different for other uses of "associated", especially > in the same sentence or paragraph. > > I guess we could use "corresponding" when we match offers and > answers, and when we match "m=" lines in an offer and answer. > > > > For example: > > > > "Take the value from the corresponding "m=" line in the > corresponding offer". > > > > Yes, we'd use "corresponding" for two things, but at least we'd get > rid of one "associated" usage. > > > > But, if someone has another suggestion, please let me know. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mmusic mailing list > > mmusic@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > . > > >
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Bundle rejection oddities Flemming Andreasen