Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

["Richard Hill" <[e-mail]>]

Dear Tom,


Thank you for this. My point is that you are more likely to be able to
develop solutions with the requisite flexibility if you get inputs from
national regulators early on. And that that is more likely to happen if the
matters are discussed in ITU-T.


Best,

Richard

 

From: McGarry, Tom [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 19:11
To: Richard Hill; Peterson, Jon; 'Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]'; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

They most likely would be involved in deciding whether that use case can
happen (one entity delegating numbers to another), but it is unlikely they
would be involved in the actual interaction.  Even if there are cases where
they would, there are certainly cases where they wouldn't.  This is why the
solutions need to be flexible enough to account for different policies.  

 

From: Richard Hill <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, June 26, 2015 1:02 PM
To: Jon Peterson <[e-mail]>, Pierce Gorman
<[e-mail]>, Tom Mcgarry <[e-mail]>, Modern
List <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

A "VoIP service provider who wants to receive a block of new numbers through
a delegation from a carrier" might well be subject to national regulation,
so the national regulator might well be involved in that use case.


Best,

Richard

 

From: Modern [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Peterson, Jon
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 19:00
To: Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]; Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

 

One would be an enterprise IP phone that has just been deployed and wants to
acquire a new number from an IP PBX. Another would be a VoIP service
provider who wants to receive a block of new numbers through a delegation
from a carrier. I ran through such use cases at the MODERN BoF.

 

Jon Peterson

Neustar, Inc.

 

From: <Gorman>, "Pierce A [CTO]" <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, June 26, 2015 at 9:55 AM
To: Jon Peterson <[e-mail]>, Richard Hill <[e-mail]>,
"McGarry, Tom" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]"
<[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

"Many use cases under consideration would not have a national regulator as
an actor."  - J. Peterson

 

I've struggled with this point.  What are the "many" use cases?  For
example, I've not been able to envision the use case that would require a
device to use a MODERN protocol tool to acquire an RFC 3966 telephone
number.  What is this use case?

 

This continues to baffle me.  Why is the IETF proposing to develop protocol
tools to manage telephone numbers?  What is broken about the existing
system(s)?

 

And I really struggle with how this is supposed to work because there are so
many different kinds of telephone numbers such as service numbers (e.g.,
211, 911, etc.), Toll Free numbers, mobile numbers, wireline numbers, TLDNs,
IMRNs, ported numbers, and multiple administrative databases, NPAC, LERG,
SMS800, et cetera.

 

And the administration is distributed (in the US) at national and state
levels.

 

Has anyone from any of the US or international number management
administrative organizations requested that the IETF build tools for them?
If they don't use them, who will?  And how can they integrate with an
existing system?  Sorry Jon.  Still lost.

 

 

Pierce Gorman

Core Network Planning

O: 913-439-4368

[e-mail]

cid:408000_086801428601145001@pvmxe13g01

 

From: Modern [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Peterson, Jon
Sent: June 26, 2015 11:35 AM
To: Richard Hill; McGarry, Tom; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

 

Your arguments here could equally well be applied to any important resource
on which the IETF does protocol work - like, say, the DNS. The IETF manages
the DNS protocol and publishes RFCs about it. But since national authorities
are responsible for ccTLDs, surely the IETF is not a suitable body for
managing the DNS! And it isn't. But it is a suitable body for managing the
protocol work on the DNS. Other, effectively unrelated entities handle the
administrative dimensions of operating the DNS, and yes, at those bodies
there are lots of national regulators and they worry about the sorts of
things you are worrying about here. The IETF just produces tools, and that
is all MODERN proposes to do. Trying to characterize this effort otherwise
is simply an error.

 

All work at the IETF is done by a coalition of the willing. If it turns out
that the coalition is not representative of the needs of the community, then
what happens? Well, the work built here doesn't get used. The only people
who wasted any time or effort were the members of that coalition. No
national interests can possibly be harmed by that, even if the failed work
involved ways of talking about telephone numbers. This makes the IETF really
different from places like the ITU, where the products of work have some
binding effect on the world.

 

Virtually all proposed work at the IETF also faces a coalition of the
unwilling. People who aren't interested, or who think the work should be
done elsewhere, or that the work simply shouldn't be done at all. But I
maintain your "formal objection" treats the scope of the proposed work as
being different than it is, and I'd agree that if this proposed work
required regulatory oversight, that the IETF shouldn't do it. But we're just
building some protocol tools. There is also related work here for ATIS to
do, and I'm sure ATIS or some other body could later take some the protocol
tools developed in the IETF and conduct an experiment with various carriers
to see if it works for that interest group or not, and that would be
interesting information. But the IETF doesn't do that part, and doesn't
aspire to do that part.

 

Finally, I'm not really sure how much I would expect "national regulators"
to literally use the tools proposed in this work. They are tools for the use
of a diverse industry of enterprises, carriers, end users, and so on. Many
use cases under consideration would not have a national regulator as an
actor. This work was in part instigated by an FCC workshop, yes, and someone
associated with the FCC spoke at the MODERN BoF. But I don't anticipate that
the FCC would be propping up servers to deploy this work - surely they would
leave that to industry. 

 

Jon Peterson

Neustar, Inc.

 

From: Richard Hill <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, June 26, 2015 at 8:09 AM
To: "McGarry, Tom" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]"
<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

Thank you for this clarification.

 

Since the intent is to create tools and solutions that would be used by
national regulators, presumably they should be involved in the development
of the tools.  


As far as I know, national regulators from most countries don't normally
participate in the IETF, for a number of reasons, including the IETF's
decision-making process and the fact that the IETF works in English.
National regulators do participate in ITU-T, for a number of reasons,
including the ITU's decision-making process and the fact that documents are
translated into the six UN languages before they are formally approved (and
some discussions takes place with interpretation in six languages).

 

If the intent is to develop tools that would be used only in the USA at
first, then I would suggest that it would be more appropriate to develop
them in a forum such as ATIS or an ad-hoc group created specifically for the
purpose. If the US experience proved successful, then the tools could be
proposed for adoption elsewhere, for example through ITU-T.

 

If the intent is to develop tools for use in many countries right at the
start, then I would suggest that the appropriate forum would be ITU-T, not
IETF, for the reasons outlined above.

 

Thus, I formally object to the creation of this new working group, and this
even if the Charter is modified as suggested below.

 

Please see additional comments inline.

 

Thanks and best,

Richard

 

From: Modern [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of McGarry, Tom
Sent: vendredi, 26. juin 2015 00:31
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

 

This effort is intended to create tools and solutions to enable flexibility
in the process of managing numbers among national administrators, service
and application providers, and consumers.  Entities can choose to use these
tools or not.  These tools are not for the ITU-T's processes or role, nor
for how national administrators interact with the ITU-T.  But of course we
want your input and feedback, so thanks for sending this along.  More
comments in line below.  

 

 

From: Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, June 25, 2015 7:44 AM
To: Modern List <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Modern] Fwd: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering,
Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

 

Would appreciate people's thoughts on whether any charter edits may be
warranted in response to these comments, and/or whether a separate response
may be useful for addressing some of the questions below. 

 

Alissa

 

Begin forwarded message:








From: "Zhang, Jie" <[e-mail]>

Subject: RE: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering, Distributing,
Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

Date: June 23, 2015 at 1:56:42 PM GMT-3

To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>

Cc: "Jamoussi, Bilel" <[e-mail]>

Dear Sir/Madam,

Below please find comments from the ITU Telecommunication Standardization
Bureau on the proposed IETF working group MODERN.

1. Potential impacts on Recommendation ITU-T E.164 and E.164.1 
It is stated at the beginning of the Charter that the MODERN working group
will define a set of Internet-based mechanisms for the purposes of managing
and resolving telephone numbers (TNs) in an IP environment. And it is
mentioned that TNs are defined in RFC 3966 "The tel URI for Telephone
Numbers". Does that mean the mechanism being referred to here only deals
with Tel URI? Would there be any impact on Recommendation ITU-E E.164 and
E.164.1 which are core recommendations on Telephone Numbers?

There will be no impacts on E.164 and E.164.1.

 

>RH: Given the scope of the work, I think that it is too early to say
whether there would be an impact. Those Recommendations are regularly
updated, in particular E.164.1, so there is nothing wrong with envisaging
changes, with the recognition of course that the changes would have to be
proposed to ITI-T Study Group 2 and agreed by that group.


2. Entities participating in the defined mechanisms
The Charter states that the protocol mechanism for resolving TNs will allow
entities such as service providers, devices, and applications to access data
related to TNs. But it is not clear what kind of entities can participate in
the mechanisms defined by this MODERN working group. Would it be restricted
to the entities who have been assigned a TN or a block of TNS?

Who participates in numbering processes within countries is subject to
regulation.  The WG cannot make any decisions with regard to this.  I expect
the WG to define "roles" within the number management processes; e.g.,
administrator, telecom carrier, application provider, consumer, etc.; and
how those roles could interact with each other.  This will be a baseline for
what tools and solutions would be useful to facilitate those interactions.  

 

>RH: Even that might be subject to, or affect, national regulations.  That
is, the definition of a "role" may well depend on national regulations.


3. Status of Telephone numbers in the defined mechanisms
Several operations related to TNs are mentioned in the Charter, including
requesting, acquiring, resolving and associating. It is also stated that the
protocol mechanism for acquiring TNs will provide an enrollment process for
the entities that use and manage TNs. Does that mean Telephone numbers with
various status, such as assigned, spare and reclaimed numbers will all be
managed in the mechanisms defined by the MODERN working group?

I would expect proposed solutions to be able to address the status of a
telephone number.

 

>RH: Since the terms "assigned", "spare" and "reclaimed" are defined in
ITU-T Recommendations (albeit sometimes implicitly), addressing the status
of a telephone number might well impact E.164 or E.164.1.


4. Regulatory issues
The Charter states that Solutions and mechanisms created by the working
group will be flexible enough to accommodate different policies for TN
assignment and management, for example those established by different
regulatory agencies. We would like to bring your attention to the fact that
the E.164 international public telecommunication numbering plan is a
politically significant numbering resource with direct implications on
national sovereignty. ITU Plenipotentiary Conference Resolution 133 (Rev.
BUSAN, 2014) recognized "the existing role and sovereignty of ITU Member
States with respect to allocation and management of their country code
numbering resources as enshrined in Recommendation ITU-T E.164", and further
instructed the ITU Secretary-General and the Directors of three Bureaux
(Telecommunication Standardization, Development, and Radiocommunication) to
"take any necessary action to ensure the sovereignty of ITU Member States
with regard to Recommendation ITU-T E.164 numbering plans whatever the
application in which they are used".

We are aware of Resolution 133 and will certainly respect it.  I would
propose adding the following text after the first sentence in the last full
paragraph - "The group acknowledges ITU Plenipotentiary Conference
Resolution 133 which recognizes the existing role and sovereignty of ITU
Member States with respect to allocation and management of their country
code numbering resources as enshrined in Recommendation ITU-T E.164."  

 

>RH: That certainly would be a helpful addition. In addition to the above, I
would suggest adding "The group's outputs would be consistent with the
provisions of relevant ITU-T Recommendations, in particular E.164, E.164.1,
E.190 and the Recommendations referenced therein."  

 

>RH: For the sake of clarity I reiterate that I oppose the creation of this
group even if the Charter is modified to include the text above.

 


5. Relationship with .Tel
DNS-based use of international numbering resources has been discussed in
ITU-T Study Group 2 (SG2) since its meeting of 17-26 September 2013. TSB
Director has also exchanged letters with ICANN on issues related to
registering digit strings in the .TEL domain. A representative from ICANN
participated in the ITU-T SG2 meeting (28 May - June 2014) and provided some
background on the TELNIC application. A correspondence group under ITU-T SG2
was also set up in this regard. We would like to know how the work of this
new WG would relate to issues related to registering digit strings in the
.TEL domain and other DNS-based use of telephone numbers.

The WG will not create any new namespace that would require regulatory
oversight, e.g., a new TLD, SLD, etc.  I wouldn't rule out the WG leveraging
existing namespaces as part of proposed solutions.  But it's too early to
say anything specific about that.  There is nothing in the charter that
references .tel.  


6. Relationship with related existing or concluded WGs
It is stated in the Charter that the working group will take into
consideration existing IETF work including STIR, ENUM, SPEERMINT, DRINKS and
SCIM. Detailed description of the relationship between this new WG and the
above mentioned other existing or concluded WGs would be appreciated.

I agree.  I would modify that sentence to add the following at the end - "as
well as other relevant industry and standards organizations."


7. The name of this new WG
The name of this new WG is "Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, &
Registering telephone Numbers (modern)". But in the Charter, ordering,
exposing and registering TNs are not mentioned, which seems to be a little
bit inconsistent.

The IETF often has fun with creating WG names.  : )  But the charter is
where to look for the scope of work.  The charter uses the following phrases
"distribution, acquisition and management of TNs", "functions involved in
associating information . with TNs", "associating, acquiring and resolving
TNs", "access data related to TNs", and "mechanisms for resolving
information related to TNs".  The functions you believe were left out of the
charter will be part of one or more of these processes.  



Best regards,

Jie Zhang
Advisor, ITU-T SG2
International Telecommunication Union
Place des Nations
CH-1211 Geneva , Switzerland 
Tel :[phone]
[e-mail]
www.itu.int
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-----Original Message-----
From: new-work [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of The IESG
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 8:47 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: [new-work] WG Review: Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, &
Registering telephone Numbers (modern)

A new IETF working group has been proposed in the Applications and Real-Time
Area. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft
charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only.
Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg at ietf.org) by
2015-06-22.

Managing, Ordering, Distributing, Exposing, & Registering telephone Numbers
(modern)
------------------------------------------------
Current Status: Proposed WG

Chairs:
 Tom McGarry <[e-mail]>
 Steve Donovan <[e-mail]>

Assigned Area Director:
 Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>

Mailing list
 Address: [e-mail]
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Charter:

The MODERN working group will define a set of Internet-based mechanisms for
the purposes of managing and resolving telephone numbers (TNs) in an IP
environment. Devices, applications, and network tools increasingly need to
manage TNs, including requesting and acquiring TN delegations from
authorities. The output of the working group should make distribution,
acquisition, and management of TNs simpler for all entities involved.

The working group will define an information management framework for the
roles and functions involved in associating information with one or more TNs
in an IP environment.  The working group will also identify protocol
mechanisms to support the interactions between the functions defined by the
framework. This includes either recommending or defining protocol mechanisms
for acquiring, associating and resolving TNs, with a preference for use of
existing protocol mechanisms. TNs may either be managed in a hierarchical
tree, or in a distributed registry. The protocol mechanism for acquiring TNs
will provide an enrollment process for the entities that use and manage TNs.


The protocol mechanism for resolving TNs will allow entities such as service
providers, devices, and applications to access data related to TNs.
Maintaining reliability, real-time application performance, and security and
privacy for both the data and the protocol interactions are primary
considerations. The working group will take into consideration existing IETF
work including STIR, ENUM, SPEERMINT, DRINKS and SCIM.

The work of this group will focus on TNs, as defined in RFC3966, and blocks
of TNs, that are used to initiate communication with another user of a
service. There is an expectation that aspects of the architecture and
protocols defined by the working group will be reusable for other
user-focused identifiers. Any such extensions or reuse of MODERN mechanisms
are out of scope for the MODERN working group. Solutions and mechanisms
created by the working group will be flexible enough to accommodate
different policies for TN assignment and management, for example those
established by different regulatory agencies.

The working group will deliver the following:

- An architecture overview, including high level requirements and
security/privacy considerations

- A description of the enrollment processes for existing and new TNs
including any modifications to metadata related to those TNs

- A description of protocol mechanisms for accessing contact information
associated with enrollments

- A description of mechanisms for resolving information related to TNs

Milestones:

TBD

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