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Re: [Moq] How complicated is WebRTC?

Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> Wed, 23 March 2022 06:07 UTC

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From: Justin Uberti <juberti@alphaexplorationco.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:07:13 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOLzse2cVqNYHYpypoPcCBS3eOfhfKA0ZZzTZx2GVbMFw3pgSQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
Cc: MOQ Mailing List <moq@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Moq] How complicated is WebRTC?
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I think the truth is that there are two different sets of things that
people want to be able to do:
a) get HLS-style distribution with ~1s latency
b) deploy WebRTC-based interactive services (~100ms latency) with the
benefit of modern public cloud infrastructure

Maybe there is a pony in there somewhere that can do both, but I wonder if
we'd be best off considering these efforts separately, and seeing if the a)
solution grows upwards to solve b) or vice versa.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 3:27 PM Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

>
> As background info on the pro/cons of WebRTC ….  You can see the main
> specification that WebRTC depended on in
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-deps-27
>
> It is approximately about the following (with some mistakes):
>
>   [RFC2198]  Perkins, C., Kouvelas, I., Hodson, O., Hardman, V.,
>               Handley, M., Bolot, J.C., Vega-Garcia, A., and S. Fosse-
>               Parisis, "RTP Payload for Redundant Audio Data", RFC 2198,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC2198, September 1997,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2198>.
>
>    [RFC3264]  Rosenberg, J. and H. Schulzrinne, "An Offer/Answer Model
>               with Session Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 3264,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC3264, June 2002,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3264>.
>
>    [RFC3388]  Camarillo, G., Eriksson, G., Holler, J., and H.
>               Schulzrinne, "Grouping of Media Lines in the Session
>               Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 3388,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC3388, December 2002,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3388>.
>
>    [RFC3389]  Zopf, R., "Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) Payload for
>               Comfort Noise (CN)", RFC 3389, DOI 10.17487/RFC3389,
>               September 2002, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3389>.
>
>    [RFC3550]  Schulzrinne, H., Casner, S., Frederick, R., and V.
>               Jacobson, "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time
>               Applications", STD 64, RFC 3550, DOI 10.17487/RFC3550,
>               July 2003, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3550>.
>
>    [RFC3551]  Schulzrinne, H. and S. Casner, "RTP Profile for Audio and
>               Video Conferences with Minimal Control", STD 65, RFC 3551,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC3551, July 2003,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3551>.
>
>    [RFC3556]  Casner, S., "Session Description Protocol (SDP) Bandwidth
>               Modifiers for RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Bandwidth",
>               RFC 3556, DOI 10.17487/RFC3556, July 2003,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3556>.
>
>    [RFC3611]  Friedman, T., Ed., Caceres, R., Ed., and A. Clark, Ed.,
>               "RTP Control Protocol Extended Reports (RTCP XR)",
>               RFC 3611, DOI 10.17487/RFC3611, November 2003,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3611>.
>
>    [RFC3711]  Baugher, M., McGrew, D., Naslund, M., Carrara, E., and K.
>               Norrman, "The Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP)",
>               RFC 3711, DOI 10.17487/RFC3711, March 2004,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3711>.
>
>    [RFC3758]  Stewart, R., Ramalho, M., Xie, Q., Tuexen, M., and P.
>               Conrad, "Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)
>               Partial Reliability Extension", RFC 3758,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC3758, May 2004,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3758>.
>
>    [RFC3890]  Westerlund, M., "A Transport Independent Bandwidth
>               Modifier for the Session Description Protocol (SDP)",
>               RFC 3890, DOI 10.17487/RFC3890, September 2004,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3890>.
>
>    [RFC4145]  Yon, D. and G. Camarillo, "TCP-Based Media Transport in
>               the Session Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 4145,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4145, September 2005,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4145>.
>
>    [RFC4566]  Handley, M., Jacobson, V., and C. Perkins, "SDP: Session
>               Description Protocol", RFC 4566, DOI 10.17487/RFC4566,
>               July 2006, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4566>.
>
>    [RFC4571]  Lazzaro, J., "Framing Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP)
>               and RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Packets over Connection-
>               Oriented Transport", RFC 4571, DOI 10.17487/RFC4571, July
>               2006, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4571>.
>
>    [RFC4572]  Lennox, J., "Connection-Oriented Media Transport over the
>               Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol in the Session
>               Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 4572,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4572, July 2006,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4572>.
>
>    [RFC4585]  Ott, J., Wenger, S., Sato, N., Burmeister, C., and J. Rey,
>               "Extended RTP Profile for Real-time Transport Control
>               Protocol (RTCP)-Based Feedback (RTP/AVPF)", RFC 4585,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4585, July 2006,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4585>.
>
>    [RFC4588]  Rey, J., Leon, D., Miyazaki, A., Varsa, V., and R.
>               Hakenberg, "RTP Retransmission Payload Format", RFC 4588,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4588, July 2006,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4588>.
>
>    [RFC4756]  Li, A., "Forward Error Correction Grouping Semantics in
>               Session Description Protocol", RFC 4756,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC4756, November 2006,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4756>.
>
>    [RFC4820]  Tuexen, M., Stewart, R., and P. Lei, "Padding Chunk and
>               Parameter for the Stream Control Transmission Protocol
>               (SCTP)", RFC 4820, DOI 10.17487/RFC4820, March 2007,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4820>.
>
>    [RFC4856]  Casner, S., "Media Type Registration of Payload Formats in
>               the RTP Profile for Audio and Video Conferences",
>               RFC 4856, DOI 10.17487/RFC4856, February 2007,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4856>.
>
>    [RFC4895]  Tuexen, M., Stewart, R., Lei, P., and E. Rescorla,
>               "Authenticated Chunks for the Stream Control Transmission
>               Protocol (SCTP)", RFC 4895, DOI 10.17487/RFC4895, August
>               2007, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4895>.
>
>    [RFC4961]  Wing, D., "Symmetric RTP / RTP Control Protocol (RTCP)",
>               BCP 131, RFC 4961, DOI 10.17487/RFC4961, July 2007,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4961>.
>
>    [RFC5052]  Watson, M., Luby, M., and L. Vicisano, "Forward Error
>               Correction (FEC) Building Block", RFC 5052,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5052, August 2007,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5052>.
>
>    [RFC5061]  Stewart, R., Xie, Q., Tuexen, M., Maruyama, S., and M.
>               Kozuka, "Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)
>               Dynamic Address Reconfiguration", RFC 5061,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5061, September 2007,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5061>.
>
>    [RFC5104]  Wenger, S., Chandra, U., Westerlund, M., and B. Burman,
>               "Codec Control Messages in the RTP Audio-Visual Profile
>               with Feedback (AVPF)", RFC 5104, DOI 10.17487/RFC5104,
>               February 2008, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5104>.
>
>    [RFC5124]  Ott, J. and E. Carrara, "Extended Secure RTP Profile for
>               Real-time Transport Control Protocol (RTCP)-Based Feedback
>               (RTP/SAVPF)", RFC 5124, DOI 10.17487/RFC5124, February
>               2008, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5124>.
>
>    [RFC5245]  Rosenberg, J., "Interactive Connectivity Establishment
>               (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT)
>               Traversal for Offer/Answer Protocols", RFC 5245,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5245, April 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5245>.
>
>    [RFC5285]  Singer, D. and H. Desineni, "A General Mechanism for RTP
>               Header Extensions", RFC 5285, DOI 10.17487/RFC5285, July
>               2008, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5285>.
>
>    [RFC5389]  Rosenberg, J., Mahy, R., Matthews, P., and D. Wing,
>               "Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)", RFC 5389,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5389, October 2008,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5389>.
>
>    [RFC5506]  Johansson, I. and M. Westerlund, "Support for Reduced-Size
>               Real-Time Transport Control Protocol (RTCP): Opportunities
>               and Consequences", RFC 5506, DOI 10.17487/RFC5506, April
>               2009, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5506>.
>
>    [RFC5576]  Lennox, J., Ott, J., and T. Schierl, "Source-Specific
>               Media Attributes in the Session Description Protocol
>               (SDP)", RFC 5576, DOI 10.17487/RFC5576, June 2009,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5576>.
>
>    [RFC5583]  Schierl, T. and S. Wenger, "Signaling Media Decoding
>               Dependency in the Session Description Protocol (SDP)",
>               RFC 5583, DOI 10.17487/RFC5583, July 2009,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5583>.
>
>    [RFC5705]  Rescorla, E., "Keying Material Exporters for Transport
>               Layer Security (TLS)", RFC 5705, DOI 10.17487/RFC5705,
>               March 2010, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5705>.
>
>    [RFC5761]  Perkins, C. and M. Westerlund, "Multiplexing RTP Data and
>               Control Packets on a Single Port", RFC 5761,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5761, April 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5761>.
>
>    [RFC5763]  Fischl, J., Tschofenig, H., and E. Rescorla, "Framework
>               for Establishing a Secure Real-time Transport Protocol
>               (SRTP) Security Context Using Datagram Transport Layer
>               Security (DTLS)", RFC 5763, DOI 10.17487/RFC5763, May
>               2010, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5763>.
>
>    [RFC5764]  McGrew, D. and E. Rescorla, "Datagram Transport Layer
>               Security (DTLS) Extension to Establish Keys for the Secure
>               Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP)", RFC 5764,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5764, May 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5764>.
>
>    [RFC5766]  Mahy, R., Matthews, P., and J. Rosenberg, "Traversal Using
>               Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session
>               Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)", RFC 5766,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5766, April 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5766>.
>
>    [RFC5768]  Rosenberg, J., "Indicating Support for Interactive
>               Connectivity Establishment (ICE) in the Session Initiation
>               Protocol (SIP)", RFC 5768, DOI 10.17487/RFC5768, April
>               2010, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5768>.
>
>    [RFC5888]  Camarillo, G. and H. Schulzrinne, "The Session Description
>               Protocol (SDP) Grouping Framework", RFC 5888,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5888, June 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5888>.
>
>    [RFC5928]  Petit-Huguenin, M., "Traversal Using Relays around NAT
>               (TURN) Resolution Mechanism", RFC 5928,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5928, August 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5928>.
>
>    [RFC5956]  Begen, A., "Forward Error Correction Grouping Semantics in
>               the Session Description Protocol", RFC 5956,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC5956, September 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5956>.
>
>    [RFC6051]  Perkins, C. and T. Schierl, "Rapid Synchronisation of RTP
>               Flows", RFC 6051, DOI 10.17487/RFC6051, November 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6051>.
>
>    [RFC6062]  Perreault, S., Ed. and J. Rosenberg, "Traversal Using
>               Relays around NAT (TURN) Extensions for TCP Allocations",
>               RFC 6062, DOI 10.17487/RFC6062, November 2010,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6062>.
>
>    [RFC6096]  Tuexen, M. and R. Stewart, "Stream Control Transmission
>               Protocol (SCTP) Chunk Flags Registration", RFC 6096,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6096, January 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6096>.
>
>    [RFC6184]  Wang, Y.-K., Even, R., Kristensen, T., and R. Jesup, "RTP
>               Payload Format for H.264 Video", RFC 6184,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6184, May 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6184>.
>
>    [RFC6188]  McGrew, D., "The Use of AES-192 and AES-256 in Secure
>               RTP", RFC 6188, DOI 10.17487/RFC6188, March 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6188>.
>
>    [RFC6236]  Johansson, I. and K. Jung, "Negotiation of Generic Image
>               Attributes in the Session Description Protocol (SDP)",
>               RFC 6236, DOI 10.17487/RFC6236, May 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6236>.
>
>    [RFC6263]  Marjou, X. and A. Sollaud, "Application Mechanism for
>               Keeping Alive the NAT Mappings Associated with RTP / RTP
>               Control Protocol (RTCP) Flows", RFC 6263,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6263, June 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6263>.
>
>    [RFC6336]  Westerlund, M. and C. Perkins, "IANA Registry for
>               Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Options",
>               RFC 6336, DOI 10.17487/RFC6336, July 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6336>.
>
>    [RFC6363]  Watson, M., Begen, A., and V. Roca, "Forward Error
>               Correction (FEC) Framework", RFC 6363,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6363, October 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6363>.
>
>    [RFC6437]  Amante, S., Carpenter, B., Jiang, S., and J. Rajahalme,
>               "IPv6 Flow Label Specification", RFC 6437,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6437, November 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6437>.
>
>    [RFC6464]  Lennox, J., Ed., Ivov, E., and E. Marocco, "A Real-time
>               Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Client-to-
>               Mixer Audio Level Indication", RFC 6464,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6464, December 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6464>.
>
>    [RFC6465]  Ivov, E., Ed., Marocco, E., Ed., and J. Lennox, "A Real-
>               time Transport Protocol (RTP) Header Extension for Mixer-
>               to-Client Audio Level Indication", RFC 6465,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6465, December 2011,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6465>.
>
>    [RFC6520]  Seggelmann, R., Tuexen, M., and M. Williams, "Transport
>               Layer Security (TLS) and Datagram Transport Layer Security
>               (DTLS) Heartbeat Extension", RFC 6520,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6520, February 2012,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6520>.
>
>    [RFC6525]  Stewart, R., Tuexen, M., and P. Lei, "Stream Control
>               Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Stream Reconfiguration",
>               RFC 6525, DOI 10.17487/RFC6525, February 2012,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6525>.
>
>    [RFC6544]  Rosenberg, J., Keranen, A., Lowekamp, B. B., and A. B.
>               Roach, "TCP Candidates with Interactive Connectivity
>               Establishment (ICE)", RFC 6544, DOI 10.17487/RFC6544,
>               March 2012, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6544>.
>
>    [RFC6555]  Wing, D. and A. Yourtchenko, "Happy Eyeballs: Success with
>               Dual-Stack Hosts", RFC 6555, DOI 10.17487/RFC6555, April
>               2012, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6555>.
>
>    [RFC6562]  Perkins, C. and JM. Valin, "Guidelines for the Use of
>               Variable Bit Rate Audio with Secure RTP", RFC 6562,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6562, March 2012,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6562>.
>
>    [RFC6716]  Valin, JM., Vos, K., and T. Terriberry, "Definition of the
>               Opus Audio Codec", RFC 6716, DOI 10.17487/RFC6716,
>               September 2012, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6716>.
>
>    [RFC6749]  Hardt, D., Ed., "The OAuth 2.0 Authorization Framework",
>               RFC 6749, DOI 10.17487/RFC6749, October 2012,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6749>.
>
>    [RFC6904]  Lennox, J., "Encryption of Header Extensions in the Secure
>               Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP)", RFC 6904,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6904, April 2013,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6904>.
>
>    [RFC6951]  Tuexen, M. and R. Stewart, "UDP Encapsulation of Stream
>               Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Packets for End-Host
>               to End-Host Communication", RFC 6951,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC6951, May 2013,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6951>.
>
>    [RFC7022]  Begen, A., Perkins, C., Wing, D., and E. Rescorla,
>               "Guidelines for Choosing RTP Control Protocol (RTCP)
>               Canonical Names (CNAMEs)", RFC 7022, DOI 10.17487/RFC7022,
>               September 2013, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7022>.
>
>    [RFC7053]  Tuexen, M., Ruengeler, I., and R. Stewart, "SACK-
>               IMMEDIATELY Extension for the Stream Control Transmission
>               Protocol", RFC 7053, DOI 10.17487/RFC7053, November 2013,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7053>.
>
>    [RFC7064]  Nandakumar, S., Salgueiro, G., Jones, P., and M. Petit-
>               Huguenin, "URI Scheme for the Session Traversal Utilities
>               for NAT (STUN) Protocol", RFC 7064, DOI 10.17487/RFC7064,
>               November 2013, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7064>.
>
>    [RFC7065]  Petit-Huguenin, M., Nandakumar, S., Salgueiro, G., and P.
>               Jones, "Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) Uniform
>               Resource Identifiers", RFC 7065, DOI 10.17487/RFC7065,
>               November 2013, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7065>.
>
>    [RFC7160]  Petit-Huguenin, M. and G. Zorn, Ed., "Support for Multiple
>               Clock Rates in an RTP Session", RFC 7160,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7160, April 2014,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7160>.
>
>    [RFC7164]  Gross, K. and R. Brandenburg, "RTP and Leap Seconds",
>               RFC 7164, DOI 10.17487/RFC7164, March 2014,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7164>.
>
>    [RFC7301]  Friedl, S., Popov, A., Langley, A., and E. Stephan,
>               "Transport Layer Security (TLS) Application-Layer Protocol
>               Negotiation Extension", RFC 7301, DOI 10.17487/RFC7301,
>               July 2014, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7301>.
>
>    [RFC7345]  Holmberg, C., Sedlacek, I., and G. Salgueiro, "UDP
>               Transport Layer (UDPTL) over Datagram Transport Layer
>               Security (DTLS)", RFC 7345, DOI 10.17487/RFC7345, August
>               2014, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7345>.
>
>    [RFC7496]  Tuexen, M., Seggelmann, R., Stewart, R., and S. Loreto,
>               "Additional Policies for the Partially Reliable Stream
>               Control Transmission Protocol Extension", RFC 7496,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7496, April 2015,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7496>.
>
>    [RFC7515]  Jones, M., Bradley, J., and N. Sakimura, "JSON Web
>               Signature (JWS)", RFC 7515, DOI 10.17487/RFC7515, May
>               2015, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7515>.
>
>    [RFC7587]  Spittka, J., Vos, K., and JM. Valin, "RTP Payload Format
>               for the Opus Speech and Audio Codec", RFC 7587,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7587, June 2015,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7587>.
>
>    [RFC7635]  Reddy, T., Patil, P., Ravindranath, R., and J. Uberti,
>               "Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Extension for
>               Third-Party Authorization", RFC 7635,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7635, August 2015,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7635>.
>
>    [RFC7639]  Hutton, A., Uberti, J., and M. Thomson, "The ALPN HTTP
>               Header Field", RFC 7639, DOI 10.17487/RFC7639, August
>               2015, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7639>.
>
>    [RFC7657]  Black, D., Ed. and P. Jones, "Differentiated Services
>               (Diffserv) and Real-Time Communication", RFC 7657,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7657, November 2015,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7657>.
>
>    [RFC7675]  Perumal, M., Wing, D., Ravindranath, R., Reddy, T., and M.
>               Thomson, "Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Usage
>               for Consent Freshness", RFC 7675, DOI 10.17487/RFC7675,
>               October 2015, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7675>.
>
>    [RFC7728]  Burman, B., Akram, A., Even, R., and M. Westerlund, "RTP
>               Stream Pause and Resume", RFC 7728, DOI 10.17487/RFC7728,
>               February 2016, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7728>.
>
>    [RFC7741]  Westin, P., Lundin, H., Glover, M., Uberti, J., and F.
>               Galligan, "RTP Payload Format for VP8 Video", RFC 7741,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7741, March 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7741>.
>
>    [RFC7742]  Roach, A.B., "WebRTC Video Processing and Codec
>               Requirements", RFC 7742, DOI 10.17487/RFC7742, March 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7742>.
>
>    [RFC7850]  Nandakumar, S., "Registering Values of the SDP 'proto'
>               Field for Transporting RTP Media over TCP under Various
>               RTP Profiles", RFC 7850, DOI 10.17487/RFC7850, April 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7850>.
>
>    [RFC7918]  Langley, A., Modadugu, N., and B. Moeller, "Transport
>               Layer Security (TLS) False Start", RFC 7918,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7918, August 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7918>.
>
>    [RFC7941]  Westerlund, M., Burman, B., Even, R., and M. Zanaty, "RTP
>               Header Extension for the RTP Control Protocol (RTCP)
>               Source Description Items", RFC 7941, DOI 10.17487/RFC7941,
>               August 2016, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7941>.
>
>    [RFC7982]  Martinsen, P., Reddy, T., Wing, D., and V. Singh,
>               "Measurement of Round-Trip Time and Fractional Loss Using
>               Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)", RFC 7982,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC7982, September 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7982>.
>
>    [RFC7983]  Petit-Huguenin, M. and G. Salgueiro, "Multiplexing Scheme
>               Updates for Secure Real-time Transport Protocol (SRTP)
>               Extension for Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS)",
>               RFC 7983, DOI 10.17487/RFC7983, September 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7983>.
>
>    [RFC8035]  Holmberg, C., "Session Description Protocol (SDP) Offer/
>               Answer Clarifications for RTP/RTCP Multiplexing",
>               RFC 8035, DOI 10.17487/RFC8035, November 2016,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8035>.
>
>    [RFC8083]  Perkins, C. and V. Singh, "Multimedia Congestion Control:
>               Circuit Breakers for Unicast RTP Sessions", RFC 8083,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8083, March 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8083>.
>
>    [RFC8108]  Lennox, J., Westerlund, M., Wu, Q., and C. Perkins,
>               "Sending Multiple RTP Streams in a Single RTP Session",
>               RFC 8108, DOI 10.17487/RFC8108, March 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8108>.
>
>    [RFC8122]  Lennox, J. and C. Holmberg, "Connection-Oriented Media
>               Transport over the Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol
>               in the Session Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 8122,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8122, March 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8122>.
>
>    [RFC8260]  Stewart, R., Tuexen, M., Loreto, S., and R. Seggelmann,
>               "Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for the
>               Stream Control Transmission Protocol", RFC 8260,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8260, November 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8260>.
>
>    [RFC8261]  Tuexen, M., Stewart, R., Jesup, R., and S. Loreto,
>               "Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) Encapsulation of
>               SCTP Packets", RFC 8261, DOI 10.17487/RFC8261, November
>               2017, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8261>.
>
>    [RFC8285]  Singer, D., Desineni, H., and R. Even, Ed., "A General
>               Mechanism for RTP Header Extensions", RFC 8285,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8285, October 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8285>.
>
>    [RFC8305]  Schinazi, D. and T. Pauly, "Happy Eyeballs Version 2:
>               Better Connectivity Using Concurrency", RFC 8305,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8305, December 2017,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8305>.
>
>    [RFC8421]  Martinsen, P., Reddy, T., and P. Patil, "Guidelines for
>               Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual-Stack Interactive
>               Connectivity Establishment (ICE)", BCP 217, RFC 8421,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8421, July 2018,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8421>.
>
>    [RFC8445]  Keranen, A., Holmberg, C., and J. Rosenberg, "Interactive
>               Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network
>               Address Translator (NAT) Traversal", RFC 8445,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8445, July 2018,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8445>.
>
>    [RFC8489]  Petit-Huguenin, M., Salgueiro, G., Rosenberg, J., Wing,
>               D., Mahy, R., and P. Matthews, "Session Traversal
>               Utilities for NAT (STUN)", RFC 8489, DOI 10.17487/RFC8489,
>               February 2020, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8489>.
>
>    [RFC8627]  Zanaty, M., Singh, V., Begen, A., and G. Mandyam, "RTP
>               Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Correction
>               (FEC)", RFC 8627, DOI 10.17487/RFC8627, July 2019,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8627>.
>
>    [RFC8656]  Reddy, T., Ed., Johnston, A., Ed., Matthews, P., and J.
>               Rosenberg, "Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN):
>               Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT
>               (STUN)", RFC 8656, DOI 10.17487/RFC8656, February 2020,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8656>.
>
>    [RFC8825]  Alvestrand, H., "Overview: Real-Time Protocols for
>               Browser-Based Applications", RFC 8825,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8825, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8825>.
>
>    [RFC8826]  Rescorla, E., "Security Considerations for WebRTC",
>               RFC 8826, DOI 10.17487/RFC8826, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8826>.
>
>    [RFC8827]  Rescorla, E., "WebRTC Security Architecture", RFC 8827,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8827, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8827>.
>
>    [RFC8829]  Uberti, J., Jennings, C., and E. Rescorla, Ed.,
>               "JavaScript Session Establishment Protocol (JSEP)",
>               RFC 8829, DOI 10.17487/RFC8829, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8829>.
>
>    [RFC8830]  Alvestrand, H., "WebRTC MediaStream Identification in the
>               Session Description Protocol", RFC 8830,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8830, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8830>.
>
>    [RFC8831]  Jesup, R., Loreto, S., and M. Tüxen, "WebRTC Data
>               Channels", RFC 8831, DOI 10.17487/RFC8831, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8831>.
>
>    [RFC8832]  Jesup, R., Loreto, S., and M. Tüxen, "WebRTC Data Channel
>               Establishment Protocol", RFC 8832, DOI 10.17487/RFC8832,
>               January 2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8832>.
>
>    [RFC8833]  Thomson, M., "Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation
>               (ALPN) for WebRTC", RFC 8833, DOI 10.17487/RFC8833,
>               January 2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8833>.
>
>    [RFC8834]  Perkins, C., Westerlund, M., and J. Ott, "Media Transport
>               and Use of RTP in WebRTC", RFC 8834, DOI 10.17487/RFC8834,
>               January 2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8834>.
>
>    [RFC8835]  Alvestrand, H., "Transports for WebRTC", RFC 8835,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8835, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8835>.
>
>    [RFC8836]  Jesup, R. and Z. Sarker, Ed., "Congestion Control
>               Requirements for Interactive Real-Time Media", RFC 8836,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8836, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8836>.
>
>    [RFC8837]  Jones, P., Dhesikan, S., Jennings, C., and D. Druta,
>               "Differentiated Services Code Point (DSCP) Packet Markings
>               for WebRTC QoS", RFC 8837, DOI 10.17487/RFC8837, January
>               2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8837>.
>
>    [RFC8838]  Ivov, E., Uberti, J., and P. Saint-Andre, "Trickle ICE:
>               Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive
>               Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol", RFC 8838,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8838, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8838>.
>
>    [RFC8839]  Petit-Huguenin, M., Nandakumar, S., Holmberg, C., Keränen,
>               A., and R. Shpount, "Session Description Protocol (SDP)
>               Offer/Answer Procedures for Interactive Connectivity
>               Establishment (ICE)", RFC 8839, DOI 10.17487/RFC8839,
>               January 2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8839>.
>
>    [RFC8840]  Ivov, E., Stach, T., Marocco, E., and C. Holmberg, "A
>               Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Usage for Incremental
>               Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive
>               Connectivity Establishment (Trickle ICE)", RFC 8840,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8840, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8840>.
>
>    [RFC8841]  Holmberg, C., Shpount, R., Loreto, S., and G. Camarillo,
>               "Session Description Protocol (SDP) Offer/Answer
>               Procedures for Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)
>               over Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) Transport",
>               RFC 8841, DOI 10.17487/RFC8841, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8841>.
>
>    [RFC8842]  Holmberg, C. and R. Shpount, "Session Description Protocol
>               (SDP) Offer/Answer Considerations for Datagram Transport
>               Layer Security (DTLS) and Transport Layer Security (TLS)",
>               RFC 8842, DOI 10.17487/RFC8842, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8842>.
>
>    [RFC8843]  Holmberg, C., Alvestrand, H., and C. Jennings,
>               "Negotiating Media Multiplexing Using the Session
>               Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 8843,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8843, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8843>.
>
>    [RFC8844]  Thomson, M. and E. Rescorla, "Unknown Key-Share Attacks on
>               Uses of TLS with the Session Description Protocol (SDP)",
>               RFC 8844, DOI 10.17487/RFC8844, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8844>.
>
>    [RFC8851]  Roach, A.B., Ed., "RTP Payload Format Restrictions",
>               RFC 8851, DOI 10.17487/RFC8851, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8851>.
>
>    [RFC8852]  Roach, A.B., Nandakumar, S., and P. Thatcher, "RTP Stream
>               Identifier Source Description (SDES)", RFC 8852,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8852, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8852>.
>
>    [RFC8853]  Burman, B., Westerlund, M., Nandakumar, S., and M. Zanaty,
>               "Using Simulcast in Session Description Protocol (SDP) and
>               RTP Sessions", RFC 8853, DOI 10.17487/RFC8853, January
>               2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8853>.
>
>    [RFC8854]  Uberti, J., "WebRTC Forward Error Correction
>               Requirements", RFC 8854, DOI 10.17487/RFC8854, January
>               2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8854>.
>
>    [RFC8858]  Holmberg, C., "Indicating Exclusive Support of RTP and RTP
>               Control Protocol (RTCP) Multiplexing Using the Session
>               Description Protocol (SDP)", RFC 8858,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8858, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8858>.
>
>    [RFC8859]  Nandakumar, S., "A Framework for Session Description
>               Protocol (SDP) Attributes When Multiplexing", RFC 8859,
>               DOI 10.17487/RFC8859, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8859>.
>
>    [RFC8860]  Westerlund, M., Perkins, C., and J. Lennox, "Sending
>               Multiple Types of Media in a Single RTP Session",
>               RFC 8860, DOI 10.17487/RFC8860, January 2021,
>               <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8860>.
>
>    [RFC8861]  Lennox, J., Westerlund, M., Wu, Q., and C. Perkins,
>               "Sending Multiple RTP Streams in a Single RTP Session:
>               Grouping RTP Control Protocol (RTCP) Reception Statistics
>               and Other Feedback", RFC 8861, DOI 10.17487/RFC8861,
>               January 2021, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8861>.
>
>
> Thank you for scrolling all the way to the bottom.
>
> You can view this one of two ways. There is a lots of stuff in WebRTC that
> does useful things and one can leverage it. Or you can view it as there
> must be a simpler way to accomplish what we need.
>
> WebRTC is a great for what it does - the number of different ways it has
> been used in the last two years alone makes it one of the most important
> protocols of the internet. But I don’t find it to be a good match to the
> problem we want to solve here.
>
> I’m sure there is a pony in there somewhere :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Moq mailing list
> Moq@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/moq
>

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