[Moq] Re: Request Synchronization Use Case

Cullen Fluffy Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> Sat, 06 June 2026 21:13 UTC

Return-Path: <fluffy@iii.ca>
X-Original-To: moq@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: moq@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD829FC7FF0A for <moq@mail2.ietf.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2026 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1780780437; bh=8Xc8quRfXaQzMmTVLLJCi9OeVtp+5arWP7dHMChnOvE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=oKlRQ2zWQErAF8U0QU5HD7LkUKaCNQ5lQ5wXZT0AJTPGBjAoNJtw7Lx+BmzDIXxlf ptpjWdBDjhIpVLxfD6daXujVHicwfqd63mp547J+biv4nbbJR8lnm4QELp/7JjtpRk 2cFZvCkIAEge9G1lXZ7BLSAYOUWjvX/VwSN7MMjQ=
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.799
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iii.ca header.b="utfg4+LE"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="MSlKT/Gl"
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YyB_SCXDS8_n for <moq@mail2.ietf.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2026 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fout-b3-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-b3-smtp.messagingengine.com [202.12.124.146]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85971FC7FF05 for <moq@ietf.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2026 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC211D0009D; Sat, 6 Jun 2026 17:13:51 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from phl-frontend-03 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 06 Jun 2026 17:13:51 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iii.ca; h=cc:cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date:date :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1780780431; x=1780866831; bh=QTJerdg5rYVUcv6HR56S2qfbD2Mvav1zmiKZv3M8ttM=; b= utfg4+LEpGT5jhQ55s5DiV/ED8yaDdmhYDvDIFBAfpjyxcpWgk0N5seYJwrFb6Lx sJJriESDeOoVi6kcQ91u+bpg0JnvpgyB4c1SBWZ8BYU3Yyjpf0qK3IuPVrichKC9 2faY0NQUDBkRsZvIhR1gbLVlxD8RV35EAh3FmY8jlBPZg3MYHnauNv4vE8a94ZGq b/Kdcjl6o/YwgpN0BUKsjmWwrOJBm9EpAXM98ZBUvWPA1Q+0egM4wbEp+jEsVKAc dNzt9vKXCpM9nm2G5sObxYtE+GZYInGbz2QdZjjXGRYztGhI8wQkP3JkZ7+/kjuM fENg+GGUFqTwc4DWOPRP1w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1780780431; x= 1780866831; bh=QTJerdg5rYVUcv6HR56S2qfbD2Mvav1zmiKZv3M8ttM=; b=M SlKT/Gl1au5w71GgyOI7QqfM/eW/PFyBHeIiMGvMnnULBi/zl9QbTvgxPl/LsWwU /15axSEqXbFrncynimLNckocCJBgqlnue5tZOoB6BCuNXgo9rHnx7WrABihs5vPW EXMpZ0Y9aAWXgpocO+XID7LH1+Yfkr6a/MZ1yq+lIZCEgs76LYJur0DO63BTKZY8 9HsCpQQFV6FqWVcC7l3dFMCbvMx9/eTEQxt5Rtaho/tSWW/ZhvXl3Ec1DYAGshLP uqrU6iIe/FcpkSsGxs3MjWPufq/Z0c3WtTugWQiwgEWo1B8euiXbZFcK6KzwTs3E 6QmSmmmJhGt8TcyXGhDAg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:jo0kavKMZWw4IgFK5Oc0mRafdaEql62Im2vbpSe_830hzfSKNXRTgA> <xme:jo0kajTwhzltBxVsUxUhRhtwrOQFi8agqvyW_B3-C2MigvjVbbdoSs42TdOu-n0l_ 34VfGf0fl_ZnPB9YlVBSYVlDNDDtyoK920n4FOAXOhicaXVCmnMAHM>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:jo0kavoHc5YNfDEskrY9wKBqDgxsGVVl8DQREMQJeTzEtDu1m6qUFqICE4BMT_U2ef5_DExPOdQnE1AQDNQnw0W-rqx_ls4H-7HenEc>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: dmFkZTF0i77jqwCdGKenIGU6MnZEo2M3+OxEKR69FCv7VeEdq/FPoB6GYDVVyz68wMzD0d 4ewlcqnwd+XQFlF4oV3JJTcTuR4ngMqa+lJBS51G2ihk6i34W5Uibj69nloJJ7xOq1yPo+ aOvIeZ3BsJclV7MpWmBxBInihgQCnHScue8tThsXJ9NuiK7igsf1BZZZKGy3EnFJlFkius qE4g2rAX4ga6a5cIgTRbF3j2Yz2eriMxAbtz8qo2XUQ8pJuwvGJh8IaNNY119HW0Y2d5eR GKPOn8nqb1NLSXZyuBrWfgsUMyc+OGFLTRdIHOMeZ+XgEKz2mS7E6OYMZiFngjBTMRLUS3 1T6ZnMSPPXWfC12IpnrE3EbgGsJdkxE561L4ojPyz/5u984/nLTWnwocvl/CUXzZiLDhs4 819rK70V+CJfw85ZWc0lQzgZ7qB9FEN6Ywd/FnPQHxA2rJcHBrMIbQe4gs2UeGsJpkex8Y q9SNui3uq/s4j45/W9XjIu5MlrwjGgBwXQ4wi5w3zHBGRPMReZdOwVysV/IPmTE2XlbWFL hZXtzXmknxDTD2p4iYCgyBeExsO3aSk9E9JNkR9xIDkPocctGBJ4sZ7OpN22I+zbgtazjs tdGbz3HBXZfGTWUJsXLQAOTgRW4UWylwTkf/fLccffBjQNZY0eXehJz0M+xw
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:jo0kagrCy_EkPIdChU0RyCfuWTmtDgzkY5XWNL_lZUHMEzD_vITtlw> <xmx:jo0kahOoOP_MxSbQA7p7Gm1ylbRJxgj5QY75rJDXsp-0Wz6oMxBOnA> <xmx:jo0kahywxNZbelahLGd7qUbwgKcVYUOr1eqWhVDc58yP76PpW-enbw> <xmx:jo0kaqtZCXdz4FBOJok9rZ9ZOBQ_fIybUIHUg8gjGcbIMrcsAam4oA> <xmx:j40karV2Q3BDVYvmYkiH5pky6J1n42gM8O4Om6RcxAS_WHQzPqsSrMZS>
Feedback-ID: icafe48a4:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 6 Jun 2026 17:13:50 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.600.51.1.1\))
From: Cullen Fluffy Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
In-Reply-To: <CANPAELvxW+=e7cnGNXa=FcKF6c=JiBih81-+ENNeq-KiHA_CLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2026 15:13:49 -0600
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <BAC94DD2-1FDB-4696-BB80-8AD8968C17F8@iii.ca>
References: <E4E2EA18-6FA9-48C6-82DB-6F6D59F9F22E@iii.ca> <CANPAELvxW+=e7cnGNXa=FcKF6c=JiBih81-+ENNeq-KiHA_CLQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alan Frindell <afrind@meta.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.600.51.1.1)
Message-ID-Hash: W4AFN2AEQ43ZWQB7LFSVF2P5XOOUKFXI
X-Message-ID-Hash: W4AFN2AEQ43ZWQB7LFSVF2P5XOOUKFXI
X-MailFrom: fluffy@iii.ca
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: Gwendal Simon <gsimon@synamedia.com>, MOQ Mailing List <moq@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [Moq] Re: Request Synchronization Use Case
List-Id: Media over QUIC <moq.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/moq/u_pLRxrAX_3omwZtZEpJAZndMGk>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/moq>
List-Help: <mailto:moq-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:moq-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:moq@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:moq-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:moq-leave@ietf.org>


> On Jun 3, 2026, at 12:14 PM, Alan Frindell <afrind@meta.com> wrote:
> 
> Circling back to the use cases here -- I copied them into issue #1519 last month and there has been some discussion there, but I'd like additional input ahead of next week in case folks have missed it.
> 
> > 3) a stream being paused and unpaused in rapid succession and requests reorders on the wire resulting in the opposite of the desired state.
> 
> Since REQUEST_UPDATEs are serialized on the subscription stream, I believe this use case is already met.  Please correct me if I'm missing something?

Agree  

> 
> > 1) Swap tracks. In a video conference, a subscriber is subscribe to track for Alice and Bob’s video and is watching Alice with Bob paused, but wants to pause Alice and unpause the track with Bob. It’s pretty common to want to ensure to pause the current one before unpausing the new track to not have congestion.
> 
> I just want to clarify -- is this scoped to a single pair of tracks or many pairs (eg Alice's Audio + Video and Bob's Audio + Video), or something that's not even pairwise (Swap Alice's Video for Bob *and* Cindy's)?

Both cases happen but when switching from Alice to Bob & Cindy, if you switch to Bob then put in a separate subscribe update to change Cindy forward to true, it does result with Cindy delayed an bit but this all gets masked a bit as the windows change size. I think we could live with having a bit of delay in that case. 

I’m mostly concerned with the Alice to Bob case. 


> 
> > 2) client side ABR
> 
> Ian added some questions in the issue, but i think it reduces to essentially the same problem as above, except it's Alice's low-quality for Alice's high-quality video.

Agree this is same as Alice to Bob case above. 

> 
> I guess the direction I'm heading in -- is there a possible unification with a slightly simpler SWITCH.  If we reduce SWITCH to only swapping the forward state on two tracks with existing subscriptions (no more SWITCH->PUBLISH), and make "min group" an option, would this meet all our ordering requirements?  This presumes some way to effect a join, which #1642 offers.
> 

I’ll send a review of the PR - I agree something in that direction could work -  thanks. 

> Thanks
> 
> -Alan