[mpls] Re: PSD technical issues

Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Wed, 30 April 2025 17:15 UTC

Return-Path: <tony1athome@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: mpls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: mpls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774DD2337DA8 for <mpls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.997
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgSUYQm3PEOl for <mpls@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com (mail-pf1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D91D82337D95 for <mpls@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-736a7e126c7so141293b3a.3 for <mpls@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1746033348; x=1746638148; darn=ietf.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nw4i1RjbWcX86dC5voi2Ve5lbchup9StnBe1FeKeL24=; b=EagKz/7ItKvj35tRGW8otg2F8fhS9ibFXZBjNp58659M/OG7vzz7xUaEjEupfm34rP Phw3fbni8geAsYUh6dj78TJEBPLctmhZAVpadyDfMlskD5f6TDh/KE2wWIGJBnqKGnux 9UsufOL7A6Epu6sZn6kQEFhS8kEGsBCxlY8FQQK5AhFFchnM7sHuP7MGgdMasmIuqd4l 11GPUebQRexQczvLAKA8GTXMQO/7MMh+RDfR1QDhJGo8TwsRnToz6S2Ygff/OR5T7Poj q4RpE/sWXElQP3rquNoBOXbOCVEa8tmZa8OedeDCLxxgQezMOCsCiC/dj2z941uMD73d 6eOA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1746033348; x=1746638148; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nw4i1RjbWcX86dC5voi2Ve5lbchup9StnBe1FeKeL24=; b=c2n5HUJ2wCWrJhBxjEvD1dPb1FzfLQayO08jqLdjatdOybISWiRhjYyjEC0h5S13KH Jmp2JZzHf3dEtqYeQKPo826xsza7NmY6+RDqHCkp5oKkTEIT2q1My+cOwLEGr5gPvmok CIvuTxL8RuC1HJ/kdH8p3R+zIR2gXRCWqRPfDgvabt6hLqRakG/oLAel8IfbhbecbWlu Nx4m3OORa0Fvp5pO6TzDJqIsp3Xe+Rt3zcpDfbJWe9trzLyZVDArjYSJInVtt/Tko+To 0NDN/89+Z31xBG0Q7hGB/InmeSVy3VpseCLFXT5gxyHugGedc8hkSCTEPQboWqw2krdK zEjg==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUGqmNt9RE2cOlYjcOjXDdIdYs9m3GalelnS3GuSEYNDmA1bTvIFDTp718vs/ZDH/McR/fd@ietf.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyOCuvo3t/x9pP8oCv1OT4iekckkKneVmGm8Aw70Yy9hwM+4L+/ G/8gCH0AqUigzpQxX67satcl+oYvJicwSTmS/Pn+m+FOcP+oOzE/
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct2gOIlBc/twLt1LrcLA0XhEXI0gqUWXQ6XRuE+FPH4SspqkGEkkyqunRk5pE/ zUwl4sn+yaBeF8RV9qsMh0+WeHXkptcMkyRg9M8E4I9WC8sg16sVGji4BU0+HGMXUqiUaZfcV53 F5EMEzOtjFzY73OTIPVkLBaNyL8kiJNMbO2qNiN/S4Fi2c5qiqYTxc7iZ8qzX+mTRNT4OUwf/cU /DQrWpBaF9OFYO/n7LWYnvT+sMLguIJ1Dr4+VlcsrBIL91f5KsVNbsAPKaKK4IJToTUTi+n4s3q eLI/nujPlS9RrU9BDXOjtJQgjRg+EoEJO8/KaHxLLdQrdkthgM/U8Ca8vH3DL6wPhDuwVHBDFl0 jsz99FA3O
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG8bXl/RbdUDrOn04m0GzE8e/GVsssuAZk7U3DqREydjqpwHldpj0VJd0W/UqjPMcVqpC5vFQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2e05:b0:73e:2359:4115 with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7403a82d834mr5179398b3a.23.1746033347904; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-73-93-167-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.93.167.4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-74039a94853sm1966897b3a.179.2025.04.30.10.15.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Sender: Tony Li <tony1athome@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.400.131.1.6\))
From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
In-Reply-To: <BY3PR13MB4787A0C6BA7C7E06133825F89A832@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 10:15:36 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <101A473F-B607-4D0E-9A62-F43AD842DDED@tony.li>
References: <026801db83da$30a3ec40$91ebc4c0$@olddog.co.uk> <9D3BA859-A778-4DE6-9839-401ACA913861@tony.li> <027901db83e1$104f6300$30ee2900$@olddog.co.uk> <db7fc5cb1f4544f6a03014274351e515@huawei.com> <CA+RyBmXLtNPe5hfTswXtnEF7sk8YifZ7GpMv8+QH5yz+hqJEgA@mail.gmail.com> <BY3PR13MB47870B745E9E819A0285B7659AC72@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <9cc9b17a-a9ba-4f1d-b3e7-20643c530e66@pi.nu> <BY3PR13MB4787FAC8DCF28DC3A6FBCEE39A802@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <5417fd83-90d4-48f1-86af-8fd528fe7b32@joelhalpern.com> <BY3PR13MB478768E31D3FBE4284E755959A832@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <54d853cb-b17a-4f9c-ac7d-f34f2bef8205@joelhalpern.com> <cef379a8-d163-42ea-90d1-35ea1f4405fc@pi.nu> <4e1ee7cf-ce3f-42ed-b903-0f084830e1bb@joelhalpern.com> <BY3PR13MB4787A0C6BA7C7E06133825F89A832@BY3PR13MB4787.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.400.131.1.6)
Message-ID-Hash: 6AZ4HNRZWYAOZJMJEFHESIWA5S4G5E4V
X-Message-ID-Hash: 6AZ4HNRZWYAOZJMJEFHESIWA5S4G5E4V
X-MailFrom: tony1athome@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-mpls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [mpls] Re: PSD technical issues
List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG <mpls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/Oea0F453fWsvwL0GHN9Q-4Sg1LU>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mpls>
List-Help: <mailto:mpls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:mpls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:mpls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:mpls-leave@ietf.org>

[WG chair hat: off]

Hi Haoyu,


> <HS> So we have only three cases to consider: pseudowire, detnet, and BIER.
> If only the egress node needs to process them, they can be located after PSD.
> If the intermediate nodes also needs to process them, then they can be normally parsed and followed by PSD. I didn't look into those use cases in detail. Can anybody tell me why the above suggestion doesn't work.


BIER is the interesting case, as it’s multicast and definitely requires intermediate nodes to examine the BIER information and act on it.

Placing MNA PSD after the BIER header requires that all nodes have an intimate knowledge of BIER and its variable length encapsulation. Finding the PSD header would be dependent on first correctly parsing BIER.

This dependency is most unfortunate as it makes the entire architecture brittle and tightly coupled.  We would much rather have things be loosely coupled and allow one protocol to be independent of other protocols. Unfortunately, no mechanism was put in place for this when we started MPLS, so we want to do what we can to avoid these dependencies.

Regards,
Tony