[netext] Draft minutes of WG meeting minutes from IETF77
<Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> Thu, 22 April 2010 20:34 UTC
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Subject: [netext] Draft minutes of WG meeting minutes from IETF77
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Please review the minutes and let the chairs know if any change is needed. -Basavaraj =========================================== Network-Based Mobility Extensions (netext) WG meeting minutes from IETF77 Date: March 25, 2010 (1300-1500) Chairs: Basavaraj Patil (basavaraj.patil@nokia.com) Rajeev Koodli (rkoodli@cisco.com) Minutes by: Ryuji Wakikawa Jabber scribe: Behcet Sarikaya Thanks to Ryuji and Behcet for volunteering. Audio archive: ftp://videolab.uoregon.edu/pub/videolab/media/ietf77/ietf77-ch8-thur-afnoon. mp3 Jabber archive: http://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/netext/2010-03-25.txt ----------------------------------------------------- - Agenda Bashing - WG Status o Charter approved with work items that include flow mobility, inter-technology handovers and radius extensions for PMIP6 o Bulk re-reg I-D published as WG doc o Localized routing PS I-D is fairly stable and we may go to WG LC soon. Scope of PS I-D includes scenarios which may be greater than what the solution I-D will tackle. --------------------------------------- 1. LMA runtime selection (Jouni Korhonen) I-D: draft-ietf-netext-redirect-01 Raj (Chair hat): In order to go for WGLC, we need more reviews from WG Please review this doc and feedback to authors. Chairs also request some volunteer for review. After further improvements to this document, following reviews we will take it to WGLC. Suresh Krishnan, Jonne Soininen and, Qin Wu volunteer for the review during the meeting. Raj requests Mohana Jeyatharan to review the I-D. --------------------------------------- 2. Bulk Re-registration for PMIP6 (Fuad Abinader) I-D: draft-ietf-netext-bulk-re-registration-00 Raj (chair hat): For the bitmap proposal, we should analyze the scenario and applicability first. We should take that discussion on the list and see how we can optimize the bulk registration. As discussed for the previous document, this one also needs review to improve the document. Chairs create tracker for this document. --------------------------------------- 3. Radius support for PMIP (Frank Xia) I-D: draft-xia-netext-radius-00 Chairs: This was a NETLMM chartered item. Chairs of NETLMM/NETEXT and relevant AD (Jari) discussed it and decided to take this item in NETEXT. Raj: We agreed on taking this doc to NETEXT. Any objection to use this document as a baseline? Alper: Have you looked at WiMAX attribute? Frank: Yes, Damjan is co-author and inputs the WiMAX parts to this document. Chairs: consensus call Any objection to use this as a baseline? Clearly no objection. Raj: WG will take the doc as a WG document after following up on the ML. --------------------------------------- 4. PMIP6 Local Routing (Suresh Krishnan) I-D: draft-krishnan-netext-pmip-lr-01 How many people have read the problem statement doc? About 10-15 in the room Suresh: Authors have not reached consensus on the A12 scenario. Sri: In A21, what is the optimized routing path here? Suresh: The optimized path is bypassing the tunnel. Sri: For the inter-domain optimization, it requires security relationships between domains. Suresh: right Frank: All solutions assume communication between mobile nodes. Any consideration of fixed nodes? Suresh: It's all connecting to the PMIP domain, all the communication go to LMA. Rajeev: If LMA does not have a binding (i.e. for fixed nodes), it's impossible to run LR. Kent: About scenario A11, Any indication to know whether MAG supports LR. Suresh: there is mechanism to tell "cannot do it", "don't want to do it". Kent: At least, there is a mechanism to support the indicator of LR. Rajeev; other choice is configuration. Suresh: You don't need to know which MAG support LR. There is a flag in the signaling. Jari: This design choice is right one. The minimum amount of info to configure on LMA/MAG. It supports the scenarios of mixing MAGs supporting LR or regular MAG. There is no need to negotiate LR dynamically. Kent: Clarification. When a mobile moves away from MAG, is LR implicitly or explicitly tore down? Suresh: update or tore down. Kent: In A11, LMA can explicitly team down LR to MAG1. Suresh: Yes, explicit tear down from LMA. Suresh: rough consensus not to support A22 scenario among authors. Everything we've discussed in PS does not need to be supported in the solution. More importantly we should quickly finish this work. Now it's open questions to the room. Sri: The PMIP protocol assumes clear security assumption between LMA and MAG. Putting A22 in Appendix. Suresh: We don't have any solution. Scenario is captured in the PS draft. So no need to discuss it in this doc. Marco (via jabber): In A12, what happens if MN2 hands over to a different MAG? The protocol runs into an out of scope situation. How do we handle this? Suresh: Drop LR session. we don't know how to solve A22. No support this scenario. drop LR session and go back to the regular one. Yuri: Handover between two LMAs. Prefix allocated to MN will be changed. i.e. Inter-LMA handover. Suresh: we don't go that scenario. no support. However, in A12, we have discussed inter-MAG handover. Yuri: A22 should not include in the solution. This leads complications to the solution. Bechet: why? Marco: taking out A22 is unclear. What is technical issue. Suresh: We can do something else. DIME has to support it. Security relation, when MAG1 and MAG2 in the different domain, how we can establish security relationship for the inter-domain. Consensus call Raj: A22 is relevant to this document? five people. (including jabber) not relevant 10 people Suresh: what are the chairs calling here? Rajeev: We should handle what we know well with 5213 as the basis. Rajeev: Chairs are open to have another document later when there is enough understanding of this case. Raj: Do we need MAG1-MAG2 dynamic tunnel establishment. Should we also specify how to establish tunnels between MAGs. This is open question. at least we should discuss it. Suresh: why is it in the scope? Rajeev: Two distinct function for LR: initiation and termination of LR, handling HO. Qin Wu: We should setup a tunnel between MAGs dynamically. Suresh: do you think we need this LR dynamic support? Or can we assume the tunnel is there?Do you support dynamic path setup or not? Raj: LR can use pre-established or configured tunnels between MAGs. It's straight forward. However this is just one way. Other option is to introduce a new protocol to establish a tunnel dynamically with signaling as an ALTERNATIVE solution. what does WG consider this? Suresh: as an editor, no need to have dynamic tunnel. Qin Wu: scalability is issue. Suresh: what is the benefit. Qin: you just need to define two messages Kent: The statically configured tunnel is just a PIPE. In addition to that, you need something forwarding setup to route the packets to the pipe. signaling for forwarding is required? Suresh: Yes, but it is more a local matter. No message exchange is required. Kent: we still need some external message to route the packets to the right tunnels Suresh: No. Kent: How to pick up which tunnel should be used for LR? Suresh: there is a message from LMA. Kent: Do you say LR is initiated from LMA only when LMA verifies both MAGs agree on LR? Otherwise, it should not initiate LR Kent: more window of failure. Suresh: agree with you. We still need some mechanism to fall back from LR. Rajeev: packets loss is an issue. we do LR for optimized performance. we have a protocol for inter-MAG handover. we should have reference for it. FPMIP. how does source MAG know the destination MAG. You need a routing entry for LR. Suresh: We don't need any message for it. MAG has local database for tunnel. Suresh: Kent requires 3 way hand-shake (both MAG accepted LR, then going to LR), confirm both MAGs and initiates LR. Rajeev: point is "if MAG has one entry it starts forwarding, MAG2 does not have setting yet?" Suresh: half-open state is open problem. Rajeev: talk details offline Kent: Don't state this half-open state issue. Raj: open the tracker for this problem. discuss on the list. Sri: we need consideration section to clarify so many features. Rajeev: Specify default, and if needed choose one of optional features and just configure it. Raj: We will adapt this as a WG doc. ----------------------- Rajeev: new topics after rechartering: 1. logical interface 2. enable flow mobility and 3. inter-tech handover. No host protocol changes is one requirement. ----------------------- 5. Applicability Statement on Logical Interface over Multiple Physical Interfaces (Telemaco Melia) I-D: draft-bernardos-netext-ll-statement-01 Frank: Is it logical or virtual IF? Rajeev: we use the term "logical interface" in the charter. Sri: another presentation from Hidetoshi Yokota has clear discussion of relationship between phy if and virtual IF. This presentation just gives the higher view of this logical interface. Yuri: conceptual question. Is this the case when PMIP is connected. Telmaco: Yes Kent: PMIP6 domain, two different access networks. assumption is assignment of the same prefix. Are Prefix1 and Prefix2 the same prefix during the handover? Sri: This does not deal with the handover scenario, but the MN attached to multiple access networks of the same domain. Julien: The draft is not well fit to what the charter specified. For example, This document doesn't discuss the MTU, no consideration of NDP and Neighbor reachability detection, etc. The desired document should give us recommendation or statement of possible issues per scenarios. Rajeev: We can not violate 4831 in any of the possible solutions Jari: The original idea of this document was to cover the general things. It should talk about the expectation and type of models, requirement. What we should consider for Default router selection, MTU, etc. These discussion must be included in this document. Raj: MN uses only a logical interface when it is multihomed? When a MN is attached with a single PHY interface, it is still using the logical interface? Sri: Yes. Raj: We should have Applicability statement of the logical interface. (flow mobility, inter-tech HO) Jari: I am confused with this picture. Ideally hiding the multihomed phy IF from IP stack, but it exposes multiple prefixes to the IP stack in the picture. Expecting some signaling in L2, hiding phy details from IP. From the IP perspective, it always uses the same default router etc. Is it the case of this picture? Telmaco: yes. Raj: it is basically hiding physical interfaces. It does not mean hiding the prefix. Jari: no flow mobility unless you have multiple prefixes. I am against it. You can still distribute multiple flows without multiple prefixes. Rajeev: Right. Same prefix and split the traffic to multiple phy interface. Sri: this is solution space. Raj: this figure is not the right one to explain the logical interface. one prefix to logical interface. During handover, prefix remains the same Julien: The slide picture is confusing. Raj: obviously more work need to be done for this document. I recommend authors to take these inputs from Julien/Jari to the document and explain it further. Sri: About the structure of this document, it should not get into the solution. high level guideline only. Kent: It needs to consider the ingress filtering Yuri: expecting many solutions for this? Why do we need two documents? Isn't it enough to have a document for the logical interface? Rajeev: this document just analyze what is the concept and what need for flow mobility work. As a result, it may turn out to be one document. Julien: We don't have a charter to hide prefixes by logical interface. Jari: You are chartered to do explaining general approach and another charter to work parts for PMIP6, but not charter for middle part (how to make logical interface work). The first document must be overall document. It should explain the whole picture.This document is pretty far from the expectation. Sri: many protocols are introduced between MAG and LMA, this is the host side solution. ----------------------- 6. Inter-tech HO with PMIP (Hidetoshi Yokota) I-D: draft-yokota-netlmm-pmipv6-mn-itho-support-03 Yuri: Application only sees the virtual interface and multiple prefixes. Which address shall application pick up? Sri: Up to source address selection. Yokota: This document does not discuss which address should be picked. Dapeng: between L2.5-L3. You should have a control for routing table. You need some program interface to the IP layer. Yokota: 2.9? Virtual interface needs to access IP layer somehow. Dapeng you need to change the application? Yokota: no, it's about device driver, bonding driver ?? (ETRI): No modifications from the application layer Julien: Charter review again. This is all about the implementation detail, MAC ID are out of scope in this group. We don't need to discuss this here. Rajeev: Charter said logical interface for flow mobility. we need to know how it works. anyway, we need to figure out what documents WG should deliver? We need some documentation. Jari; For flow mobility support, what is the host expectation, limitation, assumption. From my quick view of presentation/document, it only discusses implementation. It is missing the conceptual part of this issue. It's only describing the end of idea. Implication of what? what is the capability of L2? One example is, in 3GPP, with multiple physical interfaces, link-layer aware of these multiple access networks and host only see one interface. No charter to develop a new link layer. describing existing link-layer, and deal with more general issues in the charter. Rajeev: I don't know we have experts to describe GPRS work. Jari: No, just explaining the assumption for this logical interface. assumption to the IP stack? This documents is only discussed one solution, We need more focus on implication and explanation of whole things. Jari: This is relatively easily to do. It should be short document. Julien: agree with Jari. We don't need to describe the 3GPP work. When hiding movement from wifi to 3G, what shall we expose to IP? Sri: If we don't explain the detail in the document, how can we define the protocol for the further PMIP extension? Jari: we need some level of details, you miss the generic implication to the implementation. Young (ETRI): virtual interface can be easily implemented on linux. virtual interafce is generic to handle multihoming. Using virtual interface for flow mobility, we need more general concept. -------------- 7. Flow mobility for PMIP6 <Out of time to go through the slides proposing various solution approaches> Raj: Scope of flow mobility: a node does not involve in any signaling to direct the flows. Some of the approaches utilize some info from L2 to signal MAG to direct the flows to specific interfaces. We should not look at how the MN is doing signaling to control the flows. Rajeev: The base protocol should look at the LMA and MAG signaling even if there is L2 signaling from MN to MAG.
- [netext] Draft minutes of WG meeting minutes from… Basavaraj.Patil