Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC
Bruce Fields <bfields@fieldses.org> Fri, 04 September 2020 00:32 UTC
Return-Path: <bfields@fieldses.org>
X-Original-To: nfsv4@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: nfsv4@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26643A140E for <nfsv4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:32:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fieldses.org
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oCpUOQpoRjh for <nfsv4@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:32:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fieldses.org (fieldses.org [IPv6:2600:3c00:e000:2f7::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03E043A140C for <nfsv4@ietf.org>; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by fieldses.org (Postfix, from userid 2815) id 008CF1C25; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 fieldses.org 008CF1C25
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fieldses.org; s=default; t=1599179563; bh=dLAB1MPBVRT7GKapn7gbbNjUolzi9JXeotoop74XbFs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=ik3rQwmx2aKZ9mSf86uK6FtCSmUEE5+lVYMnTKVMy7CoBa+N3sQ0CgWHfpoOTpleZ sfMB4IkdFmJzkBBEhOm2Wq1ETOT/mWg3xRRIWczLF8fI8/ix8Ps1Zp3r/o+0TAERa3 84f9vW5bg+kgTFfOnNk4RbL8IB57cp4MmtBcJKeY=
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 20:32:42 -0400
From: Bruce Fields <bfields@fieldses.org>
To: Chuck Lever <chucklever@gmail.com>
Cc: Linux NFS Mailing List <linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org>, nfsv4@ietf.org, stfrench@microsoft.com
Message-ID: <20200904003242.GB4788@fieldses.org>
References: <20200903215242.GA4788@fieldses.org> <EFDBAD41-E0BE-4AEF-8E37-18A414CE8588@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <EFDBAD41-E0BE-4AEF-8E37-18A414CE8588@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/nfsv4/fJxZGlHTNO8uuCCO8MV24BGJif4>
Subject: Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC
X-BeenThere: nfsv4@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: NFSv4 Working Group <nfsv4.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/nfsv4>, <mailto:nfsv4-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/nfsv4/>
List-Post: <mailto:nfsv4@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:nfsv4-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nfsv4>, <mailto:nfsv4-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 00:32:46 -0000
On Thu, Sep 03, 2020 at 07:48:19PM -0400, Chuck Lever wrote: > Hi Bruce- > > > On Sep 3, 2020, at 5:52 PM, J. Bruce Fields <bfields@fieldses.org> wrote: > > > > I've been thinking about what might be required for NFS to run over > > QUIC. > > > > Also cc'ing Steve French in case he's thought about this for CIFS/SMB. > > > > I don't have real plans. For Linux, I don't even know if there's a > > kernel QUIC implementation planned yet. > > > > QUIC uses TLS so we'd probably steal some stuff from the NFS/TLS draft: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cel-nfsv4-rpc-tls/ > > The link to the latest version of that document is > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-nfsv4-rpc-tls/ > > > For example, section 4.3, which explains how to authenticate on top of > > an already-encrypted session, should also apply to QUIC. > > Most of the document's content will be re-used for defining > RPC-over-QUIC, for example the ALPN defined in Section 8.2. > Lars Eggert, a chair of the QUIC WG, has been helping guide > the RPC-over-TLS effort with an eye towards using QUIC for > RPC when QUIC becomes more mature. > > I thought the plan was to write a specification of RPC-over- > QUIC as a new RPC transport type with a netid and uaddr along > with a definition of the transport semantics (a la TI-RPC). > The document would need to explain record marking, peer > authentication, how to use multi-path and multi-stream support, > and so on. > > Making NFS work on that transport should then be straightforward > enough that perhaps additional standards work wouldn't be > necessary. Oh, OK, good. Sounds like you're way ahead of me, then, I didn't know there was a plan. --b. > > QUIC runs over UDP, so I think all that would be required to negotiate > > support would be to attempt a QUIC connection to port 2049. > > > > The "Transport Layers" section in the NFS RFCs: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5661#section-2.9 > > > > requires transports support reliable and in-order transmission, forbids > > clients from retrying a request unless a connection is lost, and forbids > > servers from dropping a request without closing a connection. I'm still > > vague on how those requirements interact with QUIC's connection > > management and 0-RTT reconnection. > > > > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-quic-applicability-07.txt looks > > useful, as a guide for applications running over QUIC. It warns that > > connections can time out fairly quickly. For timely callbacks over NFS > > sessions, that means we need the client to ping the server regularly. > > Sounds like that's what they do for HTTP/QUIC to make server push > > notifications work: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-09#section-5 > > > > HTTP clients are expected to use QUIC PING frames to keep > > connections open. Servers SHOULD NOT use PING frames to keep a > > connection open. A client SHOULD NOT use PING frames for this > > purpose unless there are responses outstanding for requests or > > server pushes. > > > > QUIC allows multiple streams per connection--I wonder how we might use > > that. RFC 5661 justifies the requirement for an ordered transport with: > > > > Ordered delivery simplifies detection of transmit errors, and > > simplifies the sending of arbitrary sized requests and responses > > via the record marking protocol. > > > > So as long as we don't try to split a single RPC among streams, I think > > we're OK. Would a stream per session slot be reasonable? I'm not sure > > what the cost of a stream is. > > > > Do we need to add a new universal address type so the protocol can > > specify QUIC endpoints when necessary? (For server-to-server-copy, pnfs > > file layouts, fs_locations, etc.) All QUIC needs is an IP address and > > maybe a port, so maybe the existing UDP/TCP addresses are enough? > > -- > Chuck Lever > chucklever@gmail.com > >
- [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC bfields
- Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC Chuck Lever
- Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC Bruce Fields
- Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC Chuck Lever
- Re: [nfsv4] NFS over QUIC Brian Pawlowski
- Re: [nfsv4] [EXTERNAL] Re: NFS over QUIC Steven French