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Re: [Ohttp] Discovery (no)

Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> Tue, 27 July 2021 17:30 UTC

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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:30:07 -0400
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Cc: Thomas Mangin <thomas.mangin@exa.net.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "ohttp@ietf.org" <ohttp@ietf.org>, Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net>
To: Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.CONSULTING>
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Subject: Re: [Ohttp] Discovery (no)
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Hi Andrew,

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.CONSULTING> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 21:07 Thomas Mangin <thomas.mangin@exa.net.uk <mailto:thomas.mangin@exa.net.uk>> wrote:
>  
> > 
> > 
> I feel we will have to agree to disagree: if developers can not create two interoperable implementations from a draft/RFC alone, this is not a complete document.
>  
> They *can* create an interoperable implementation. The entities that interoperate are (a) the client/origin-server and (b) the proxy. It's just that the client/origin server are in two pieces. But that's no more a problem than that in order to do QUIC you need a QUIC stack and a UDP stack but there's not really a standardized interface that goes between them.
> > 
> > With the same argument, the port could/should be left out of HTTP RFC. You can make interoperable implementations without it, you just need to agree the port outside the RFC. I fail to see your QUIC parallel, I had no issue with the QUIC drafts but I its has been well over a year since I read a draft and I have not read the published RFC. Also there is quite a few "end-to-end" OSS QUIC implementations where developers were able to create QUIC clients and servers. I can not implement a OHTTP stack and make it work with anyone, without out-of-draft discussion.
> > 
> > But again, I feel that it does no matter on long we discuss this on the ML, we will probably not agree. That said, the draft encoding and components description is very good and clear and I can see no issue with it.
>  
> I agree that discovery is a necessary part of the development of this protocol: if we rely on unspecified, out-of-band methods for proxies to be determined then we are open to collusion between parties, with associated loss of any privacy protections, as well as risk of further centralisation. 

Parties can always collude whether or not a discovery mechanism is specified.

Alissa

> In my view, the WG should commit to documenting a fair, open discovery mechanism for proxies that is published alongside the main protocol. 
>  
> No doubt this will come up in the BOF discussion later today. 
>  
>  
> Andrew 
>  
>  
>  
> -- 
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