Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: [mpls] New Liaison Statement, "LS on the consent of draft Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962 (ex. Q.joint_tr) Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute of joint Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching

[Joel Halpern <[e-mail]>]

I checked with the IETF's liaison manager for ITU-T.  It turns out, 
process-wise, that the underlying document this refers to was fully 
approved by ITU-T  in December.  So there is nothing to respond to and 
no benefit for the IETF in generating a response.

Yours,

Joel

On 2/17/2024 12:13 AM, [e-mail] wrote:
> Greg,
>
> I'm not the expert on ICMP, but as far as I see you are correct.
>
> I very much would like an ICMP expert to look at this, but I don't know
> who to contact. Can anyone help me?
>
> /Loa
>
>
>> Hi Loa,
>> thank you for bringing to the discussion this liaison. I've looked through
>> the prescribed processing and I have concerns about the scenario when an
>> ICMP packet arrives at PE1 with the TTL=3. If I understand the process
>> correctly, IP TTL is decremented and since it is non-zero, the ICMP packet
>> is encapsulated in MPLS with MPLS TTL set to 2. If the MPLS network has
>> more than one P node, that MPLS TTL expires at the second downstream P
>> node. That node discovers the ICMP packet with TTL=2. And here I see two
>> cases:
>>
>>     - IP Dst is unknown to the P node
>>     - IP Dst is, somehow, known to the P node
>>
>> In the latter case, the P node will route the ICMP packet. In the former,
>> as I understand it, will drop its ICMP Host unreachable. Either case is
>> troublesome.
>> Am I missing something in the process described in the liaison? Do you see
>> a mistake in my thinking?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 2:08 AM <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> We have the liaison:
>>>
>>> "LS on the consent of draft Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962 (ex. Q.joint_tr)
>>> Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute of joint
>>> Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching".
>>>
>>> I have tried to read the Recommendation, still have some concerns and
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> The liaison was addressed to the OPSAWG, but Tianran (OPSAWG co-chair)
>>> sent this to the MPLS WG that seem better fitted to respond if we want
>>> to.
>>>
>>> One questions for the OPSAWG is that if the MPLS WG decides to respond
>>> would the OPSAWG want to join in on the response?
>>>
>>> My concerns at moment are (possible there will be more) are rather  high
>>> level.
>>>
>>> The consented document is about "IP/MPLS" traceroute. This is core
>>> IETF/IP
>>> areas, and within the IETF design authority.. If the intention is to
>>> align SG-11 protocols with IETF technology that is OK.
>>>
>>> If it is it is a bit odd that neither STD5  (which include ICMP) nor
>>> RFC
>>> 8029 are mentioned. In fact a consented Recommendation on IETF core
>>> technology does not mention a single RFC.
>>>
>>> If the intention is to create an ITU-T owned version of traceroute we
>>> are
>>> back in the discussion on honoring design authorities.
>>>
>>> The terminology is not well aligned with the IETF RFC. There are
>>> "MultiProtocol Label Switch" rather than "MultiProtocol Label
>>> Switching",
>>> MPLS tags (sic!), CE is said to be expanded as "Customer Equipment",
>>> while
>>> the common IETF usage is "Customer Edge", and there is more.
>>>
>>> Figure 6-1 deserves some scrutiny
>>>
>>> - the PEs seem to belong to both carrier and enterprise network
>>> - half of the CE seem to belong to the enterprise network and the
>>>    other half to something undefined.
>>>
>>> Also figure 6-1, a normal MPLS network deployment would have IP
>>> connectivity end to end and traceroute would just work over IP.
>>>
>>> Havin said that there is not always IP, e.g. MPLS-TP is built on the
>>> assumption. that IP connectivity is not necessary.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think we have good reason to respond even though the Liaison is "For
>>> Information".
>>>
>>> I don't know where the responsibility for STD5/ICMP lies, but possibly
>>> someone that know could forward.
>>>
>>> And I think it would be a good idea to call on Scott to coordinate a
>>> response.
>>>
>>> /Loa
>>>
>>>
>>>> <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
>>>> charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><br
>>>> id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my
>>> iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br>Begin forwarded
>>>> message:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div
>>> dir="ltr"><b>From:</b>
>>>> Greg Mirsky &lt;[e-mail]&gt;<br><b>Date:</b> 29 October
>>> 2023
>>>> at 04:21:17 GMT+8<br><b>To:</b> Tony Li
>>>> &lt;[e-mail]&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> [e-mail], Henk Birkholz
>>> &lt;[e-mail]&gt;, [e-mail],
>>> Tianran Zhou &lt;zhoutianran=[e-mail]&gt;, Warren
>>> Kumari &lt;[e-mail]&gt;, Joe Clarke &lt;[e-mail]&gt;,
>>> [e-mail], Robert Wilton &lt;[e-mail]&gt;,
>>>> [e-mail], [e-mail]<br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Re:
>>> [mpls]
>>> New Liaison Statement, "LS on the consent of draft Recommendation ITU-T
>>> Q.3962 (ex. Q.joint_tr) “Requirements and Reference Model for
>>> optimized
>>>> traceroute of joint Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label
>>>> Switching”"</b><br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote
>>> type="cite"><div
>>> dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi Tony,<div>it appears to me that what this
>>> recommendations describes is Uniform tunneling model (<a
>>>> href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3443">RFC 3443</a>) for
>>> treating&nbsp;ICMP over MPLS (not sure whether the proponents of the
>>> recommendation argue for using the uniform model for subscriber traffic
>>> in
>>> general).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div
>>> class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Oct 28,
>>> 2023
>>>> at 10:35 AM Tony Li &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>&gt;
>>>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
>>> 0px
>>>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> Perhaps a pointer to IOAM-DEX and a “thanks, already done”?<br> <br>
>>>> T<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> &gt; On Oct 28, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Thanks Tianran,<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; I think you're right that these requirements are something the
>>> MPLS
>>> working group may want to look at.<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Working group: unless you have ITU-T internal access, look at the
>>> copy of Q.3982 that was attached and can be seen at <a
>>>> href="
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-1.pdf
>>> "
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-1.pdf
>>> </a>
>>> Don't follow the URL in the liaison statement.<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; The liaison is "for information", but we might want to look to
>>> see
>>> whether there is anything we can learn from the requirements presented,
>>> whether we think there are existing ways of solving the problem
>>> presented,
>>>> and whether there is any response we want to send.<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Thanks,<br>
>>>> &gt; Adrian<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>> &gt; From: mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Tianran
>>> Zhou<br>
>>>> &gt; Sent: 28 October 2023 10:10<br>
>>>> &gt; To: Liaison Statement Management Tool &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Joe Clarke
>>> &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> <a href="mailto:[e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>; <a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a><br>
>>>> &gt; Cc: Tatiana Kurakova &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; <a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>; Robert Wilton &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> <a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>; Joe Clarke &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> Operations and Management Area Working Group Discussion List &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>> Warren Kumari &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;<br>
>>>> &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] New Liaison Statement, "LS on the consent of
>>> draft Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962 (ex. Q.joint_tr) “Requirements and
>>> Reference Model for optimized traceroute of joint Internet
>>>> Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching”"<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Hi MPLS WG,<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; I forward this LS to MPLS because I believe it not really belongs
>>> to
>>>> OPSAWG.<br>
>>>> &gt; I think MPLS WG should be the right place to receive.<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Best,<br>
>>>> &gt; Tianran<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>> &gt; From: Liaison Statement Management Tool [mailto:<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>]
>>>> <br>
>>>> &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2023 11:23 PM<br>
>>>> &gt; To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Joe Clarke
>>> &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> Tianran Zhou &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;<br>
>>>> &gt; Cc: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Joe Clarke
>>> &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> Operations and Management Area Working Group Discussion List &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>> Robert Wilton &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Scott Mansfield
>>>> &lt;[e-mail]&gt;; Tatiana Kurakova &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Tianran Zhou &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;; Warren Kumari &lt;<a
>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;;
>>>> <a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>; <a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a><br>
>>>> &gt; Subject: New Liaison Statement, "LS on the consent of draft
>>> Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962 (ex. Q.joint_tr) “Requirements and
>>> Reference
>>>> Model for optimized traceroute of joint Internet
>>> Protocol/Multi-Protocol
>>> Label Switching”"<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Title: LS on the consent of draft Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962
>>> (ex.
>>> Q.joint_tr) “Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute
>>> of joint Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching”<br> &gt;
>>> Submission Date: 2023-10-24<br>
>>>> &gt; URL of the IETF Web page: <a
>>>> href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1869/" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1869/</a><br> &gt;
>>> <br>
>>>> &gt; From: Denis ANDREEV &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;<br>
>>>> &gt; To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Joe Clarke
>>> &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Tianran Zhou &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;<br>
>>>> &gt; Cc: Robert Wilton &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Warren Kumari &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a> &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Joe Clarke &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Scott Mansfield
>>>> &lt;[e-mail]&gt;,Operations and Management Area
>>> Working Group Discussion List &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
>>>> href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt;,Tianran Zhou
>>> &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt; Response Contacts:
>>> Tatiana
>>>> Kurakova &lt;<a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a>&gt; Technical Contacts:
>>> <br>
>>>> &gt; Purpose: For information<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Body: This liaison statement provides information about the
>>> consented
>>>> item as a result of the ITU-T SG11 meeting (Geneva, 10-20 October
>>> 2023).<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; ITU-T SG11 would like to inform ITU-T Study Group 13 and IETF
>>> about
>>> the draft new Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962 (ex. Q. joint_tr)
>>>> “Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute of joint
>>> Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching” which was consented
>>> during the ITU-T SG11 meeting (Geneva, 10-20 October 2023).<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; The draft new Recommendation ITU-T Q. 3962 (ex. Q. joint_tr)
>>> “Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute of joint
>>> Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching” is attached for your
>>> convenience.<br>
>>>> &gt; ITU-T SG11 looks forward to collaborating with ITU-T Study Group
>>> 13
>>> and IETF on this matter.<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; Attachment:<br>
>>>> &gt; SG11-TD747/GEN: Consent – draft Recommendation ITU-T Q.3962
>>> (ex.
>>> Q.joint_tr): Requirements and Reference Model for optimized traceroute
>>> of
>>>> joint Internet Protocol/Multi-Protocol Label Switching (Geneva, 10-20
>>> October 2023)<br>
>>>> &gt; Attachments:<br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SG11-LS108-Att-TD747<br>
>>>> &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a
>>>> href="
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-1.pdf
>>> "
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-1.pdf
>>> </a><br>
>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SG11-LS108<br>
>>>> &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; <a
>>>> href="
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-2.docx
>>> "
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">
>>> https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2023-10-24-itu-t-sg-11-opsawg-ls-on-the-consent-of-draft-recommendation-itu-t-q3962-ex-qjoint_tr-requirements-and-reference-model-for-optim-attachment-2.docx
>>> </a><br>
>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; <br>
>>>> &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> &gt; mpls mailing list<br>
>>>> &gt; <a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a><br>
>>>> &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><br>
>>> &gt;
>>> <br>
>>>> &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> &gt; mpls mailing list<br>
>>>> &gt; <a href="mailto:[e-mail]"
>>> target="_blank">[e-mail]</a><br>
>>>> &gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><br>
>>> <br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> mpls mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:[e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]</a><br>
>>> <a
>>> href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><br>
>>> </blockquote></div>
>>> <span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>mpls
>>> mailing
>>>> list</span><br><span>[e-mail]</span><br><span>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>> </span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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