Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive)
Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Tue, 11 December 2001 13:35 UTC
Delivery-Date: Mon Jan 28 09:04:15 2002
Replied: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:30:51 -0500
Replied: "Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> "
Return-Path: owner-pilc@grc.nasa.gov
Delivery-Date: Tue Dec 11 15:49:38 2001
Delivery-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:49:38 -0500
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:35:28 +0000
Subject: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive)
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
To: pilc@grc.nasa.gov
Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk
Message-Id: <B83AFDAB.44%gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-pilc@grc.nasa.gov
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO
Content-Length: 9707
Lines: 253
While awakening several hours too early, after failing to adapt to US time zones, I read the link-id again. These comments refer to the ID revision 07 as held in the IETF archives. Comments are mainly NiTs, and some consistency issues between pilc drafts. Gorry Fairhurst --------- In the section "Bandwidth on Demand (BoD) Subnets" The ID says: "The resource shared may be a terrestrial wireless hop, a satellite uplink, or an end-to-end satellite channel." These techniques are also used in other places than those listed. This statement should be more inclusive. I suggest, for example: "Examples of the resource that may be shared include a terrestrial wireless hop, a cable modem uplink, a satellite uplink, and an end-to-end satellite channel." --------- In the section "Recovery from Subnetwork Outages" Para 6 of the ID says " Only a single packet per TCP connection, including ACKs, need be held in this way to cause the TCP sender to recover from the additional losses once the flow resumes. [ARQ-DRAFT]" Reference should come before the full stop. --------- In the section "Recovery from Subnetwork Outages" Para 7 of the ID says " Because it would be a layering violation (and possibly a performance hit) for IP or a subnetwork layer to look at TCP headers (which would in any event be impossible if IPSEC [RFC2401] encryption is in use), *** But, still not sure about this - In [arq-id], section 3.3, we discuss flow separation from the ARQ viewpoint and the practical difficulties in doing this. Some of this surely applies here, in particular how is a network device to identify TCP flows when IPSEC ESP is being used? Life gets more tricky when the link includes tunnels/MPLS/etc. etc. This problem issue should at least be highlighted somewhere! It continues: ..."it would be reasonable for the IP or subnetwork layers to choose, as a design parameter, some small number of packets that it will retain during an outage." The above sentence referes to one or more layers. Suggest: ..." it would be reasonable for the IP or subnetwork layers to choose, as a design parameter, some small number of packets that will be retained during an outage." --------- In the section " CRCs, Checksums and Error Detection" The final paragraph on IPv6, may be better placed as the third paragraph of the section, since it follows logically the thoughts in paras 1,2. The rest of the section seems to talk about link CRCs, which applies to IPv6 and IPv4. --------- In the section "CRCs, Checksums and Error Detection" The paragraph below is possibly misleading: "For link layers that can differentiate between flows, it may be appropriate to reduce the error detection level for certain flows with large numbers of small packets, such as voice flows. As such flows also benefit significantly from header compression, this should only be combined with a header compression scheme that is robust against residual bit errors [RFC3095]." The requirement is not that the link layer is able to "differentiate between flows" which simply means separation of the IP (or TCP) flows - something which again, is not always possible or easy in the general Internet - it also assumes that the link is able to identify the ***actual*** transport/application requirements. Reducing the CRC coverage / power should only be done with the knowledge that the ***application*** can correctly utilise corrupted information, doing this with arbitary application protocols carries a serious danger that the link may deliver data with errors which usually remain undetected by the application and hence can corrupt the user data. This is evil. On the other hand, it can be good if you have a suitable audio/video format and codec that's able to accommodate loss using "erasure" techniques. This paragraph needs to be changed. --------- In the section "How TCP Works" Paragraph 4: "TCP uses sequence numbering and acknowledgments (ACKs) on an end-to- end basis to provide reliable, sequenced, once-only delivery. TCP ACKs are cumulative, i.e., each implicitly ACKs every segment received so far. If a packet is lost, the cumulative ACK will cease to advance." The last sentence isn't too clear. Slightly better: "If an ACK is not received, the acknowledgment value carried in the cumulative packet will cease to advance" --------- The section "Delay Characteristics" Says some important things, but also partly re-iterates what is said elsewhere in the document on the impact of delay and also in the [arq-id]. It may be better to re-edit this or place it near the start? at the end? of the document. --------- The section "Bandwidth Asymmetries" Since ASYM is now a working group document, which has been agreed, I think you really should replace "[BPK98]" with a reference to the asym-id. The text in the link-id now pre-dates the text in the asym-id, which now talks about much more than simple differences in link bandwidth and the few mitigations cited in the link-id. The ID says: "Some subnetworks may provide asymmetric bandwidth and the Internet protocol suite will generally still work fine." Yes, but asymmetry may also arise because the forward and return paths used by a TCP connection use different subnetworks with different available capacities as well. This may be better: "Some subnetworks may provide asymmetric bandwidth (or may cause TCP packet flows to be experience asymmetry in the capacity) and the Internet protocol suite will generally still work fine." I also dislike the work "bandwidth" here, because it's not bandwidth that matters, but available capacity. Bandwidth asymmetry may lead to asymmetric capacity. The ID says: "Therefore, when the ratio of the bandwidth of the subnetwork carrying the data to the bandwidth of the subnetwork carrying the acknowledgments is too large, the slow return of of the ACKs directly impacts performance. " Suggest you replace "bandwidth" by "available capacity" as below: "Since ACKs are generally smaller than data segments, TCP can tolerate some asymmetry, but as a general rule designers of subnetworks should avoid large differences in the incoming and outgoing bandwidth." Is this really the correct recommendation? - I don't agree. The phrase "should avoid" seems very strong, the asym-id gives many examples of situations other engineering trade-offs result in high asymmetry. I would suggest the best advice is something like: "Since ACKs are generally smaller than data segments, TCP can tolerate some asymmetry, but as a general rule designers of subnetworks should be aware that subnetworks with significant asymmetry can result in reduced performance, unless issues are taken to mitigate this [asym-id]." The ID says: "One way to cope with asymmetric subnetworks is to increase the size of the data segments as much as possible. This allows more data to be sent per ACK, mitigating the slow flow of ACKs. Using the delayed acknowledgment mechanism [Bra89] that reduces the number of ACKs transmitted by the receiver by roughly half can also improve performance by reducing the congestion on the ACK channel. These mechanisms should be employed in asymmetric networks." The above paragraph is not advice to a link designer! Anyway, this is one of a number of ***mitigations***, it only works in some cases, it doesn't always help much - see [asym-id]. Can we delete the above paragraph? The ID says: "Several researchers have introduced strategies for coping with bandwidth asymmetry. These mechanisms generally attempt to reduce the number of ACKs being transmitted over the low bandwidth channel by limiting the ACK frequency or filtering out ACKs at an intermediate router [BPK98]. While these solutions mitigate the performance problems caused by asymmetric subnetworks, they do have some cost. Therefore, as suggested above, bandwidth asymmetry should be minimized in subnetwork designs." This isn't in agreement with the discussion in the [asym-id]. Suggest you replace this paragraph with: "Several strategies have been identified for reducing the impact of asymmetry of the network path between two TCP end hosts, e.g. [asym-id]. These techniques attempt to reduce the number of ACKs transmitted over the return path (low bandwidth channel) by changes at the end host(s), and/or by modification of subnetwork packet forwarding. While these solutions may mitigate the performance issues caused by asymmetric subnetworks, they do have associated cost and may have other implications. A fuller discussion of strategies and their implications is provided in [asym-id]" --------- In the section "Buffering, flow & congestion control" Para 4 of the ID ends by saying "as a rule of thumb, each node should have enough buffering to hold one bandwidth*delay product's worth of data for each TCP connection sharing the link." Is bandwidth - is this "link bandwidth"? Is delay also "link delay" - or is it "path delay"? - Can we make this clear? --------- In the section "Multicasting" There is no statement about IPv6, requiring multicast support at the network layer - Thus is needed even if multicast is not natively supported by a subnetwork. --------- In the section "Broadcasting and Discovery" There is no statement about IPv6!!!!! --------- In the section "Security Considerations" Paragraph 5 "The majority of the working group held that" --- I think someone's already said something, but this is not necessarily true or useful to say!!! -----
- Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Joe Touch
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Dan Grossman
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archiveā¦ Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Dan Grossman
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Mostly NiTs on link-id (-07 from IETF archive) Markku Kojo