Re: [PMOL] [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload design teamupdate?
"Saverio Niccolini" <Saverio.Niccolini@nw.neclab.eu> Fri, 04 April 2008 04:54 UTC
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Thread-Topic: [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload design teamupdate?
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From: Saverio Niccolini <Saverio.Niccolini@nw.neclab.eu>
To: Scott Poretsky <SPoretsky@nextpointnetworks.com>, Daryl Malas <D.Malas@cablelabs.com>, sipping@ietf.org
Cc: Rosario Garroppo <rosario.garroppo@iet.unipi.it>, pmol@ietf.org, bmwg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PMOL] [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload design teamupdate?
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Dear all, I think there are many unclear points and I do not know what is the best mailig list where to discuss this (I added PMOL but maybe the cross posting become too big now...) I think the bmwg draft (http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-poretsky-bmwg-sip-bench-meth-02) does not really help in getting what the sense of "goodput" means in the overload control simulation resutls presented by Volker. Would you (Daryl) suggest such metric is: "Maximum Session Attempt Rate"? Or whatelse? Are we sure that the goodput Volker is referring to is not the same metric as you (Daryl) describe in Session Establishment Rate (SER): http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-malas-performance-metrics-08#section-3.6 Actually, in my opinion, is none of both. I understand that the "goodput" is a *load* metric but that Volker and the design team simulated it with *performance* constraints, i.e., if call set up delay is high than a configurable treshold T then the call is not considered in the goodput --> which leads to the assumption that it is a kind of a mixed metric... Other interesting sentence from Volker in his email is: "T does not have a significant impact, as long as it is chosen reasonably, since the buffer occupancy stays within a given limit with overload control" I hope someone can clarify, from my perspective: -- either such metric must be included in the drafts (as I wrote I do not see cuh a metric in any draft) -- or the goodput should be adapted to show metrics that are described in the drafts Am I missing something? Saverio ============================================================ Dr. Saverio Niccolini Senior Researcher NEC Laboratories Europe, Network Research Division Kurfuerstenanlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg Tel. +49 (0)6221 4342-118 Fax: +49 (0)6221 4342-155 e-mail: saverio.niccolini@nw.neclab.eu <-- !!! NEW ADDRESS !!! ============================================================ NEC Europe Limited Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL Registered in England 2832014 > -----Original Message----- > From: bmwg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:bmwg-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Scott Poretsky > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:02 PM > To: Daryl Malas; sipping@ietf.org > Cc: bmwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload > design teamupdate? > > Thanks Daryl. We will make sure this is considered in the > next revision. > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: bmwg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:bmwg-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Daryl Malas > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:09 PM > To: sipping@ietf.org > Cc: bmwg@ietf.org > Subject: [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload > design team update? > > FYI...I believe there was a draft written in BMWG to help > clarify some of these single DUT performance metric terms. I > am forwarding this thread to the BMWG mailing list for > additional review as necessary. > > --Daryl > > -----Original Message----- > From: sipping-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:sipping-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Volker Hilt > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:59 PM > To: Saverio Niccolini > Cc: Rosario Garroppo; sipping@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload design team update? > > Saverio, > > > > I have two questions regarding the overload topic: > > > > 1- in the simulations results reported in > > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/tsvarea-3.ppt > > I see that many mechanisms reach the theoretical bound and the > > performance is referred to as "goodput" > > > > What is the meaning of goodput here? Is the "call set up delay" > > of the calls a parameter investigated in the simulations? > > > It is the number of calls that were successfully set up, > i.e., for which an INVITE transaction could be successfully > completed. The call setup delay is considered in that a > request is abandoned if it could not be set up within 10 > seconds. The number of seconds does not have a significant > impact, as long as it is chosen reasonably, since the buffer > occupancy stays within a given limit with overload control. > > > I try to explain my question better: > > is the 140 cps goodput all related to calls that achieve a > call setup > > delay which is acceptable for a real-time call? (e.g. a > call that is > > set up but with a 20 sec can not be really considered goodput) > > > Yes. See above. > > Volker > > > > > 2- terminology problem > > I have a problem with seeing the term overload "control" > used here, if > > > you refer to the literature you will see terms like > > congestion/overload "avoidance" and "control" > > > > the former refers to avoiding a congestion/overload > situation happens > > (this is what the mechanisms and the simulations investigated in > > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/tsvarea-3.ppt > > in my opinion) > > the latter refers to controlling such a situation once it happened > > (e.g., because a server went down, because something unexpected > > happened) > > > > Can you please clarify and tell me why we are not using overload > > avoidance when referring to this work? > > > > Thanks a lot in advance, > > Saverio > > > > ============================================================ > > Dr. Saverio Niccolini > > Senior Researcher > > NEC Laboratories Europe, Network Research Division > > Kurfuerstenanlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg > > Tel. +49 (0)6221 4342-118 > > Fax: +49 (0)6221 4342-155 > > e-mail: saverio.niccolini@nw.neclab.eu <-- !!! NEW ADDRESS !!! > > ============================================================ > > NEC Europe Limited Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, > > London W3 6BL Registered in England 2832014 > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sipping-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:sipping-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg > >> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 10:43 PM > >> To: Mary Barnes > >> Cc: sipping; Gonzalo Camarillo > >> Subject: Re: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No overload design > team update? > >> > >> There has also been progress since last ietf. > >> > >> One of the main points of feedback from last ietf, was that all of > >> the proposed algorithms showed the overall goodput going > to zero. As > >> we dug into this, the real problem is the simulation > model; the model > > >> assumes the senders never back off, and assumes that there > is finite > >> resources in all nodes, some amount of which is needed even to > >> discard a request. > >> So, when you put those together, the simulation model means ALL > >> algorithms would have this property. > >> > >> SO we've adjusted the models to focus on server to server > first, and > >> see whether the algorithms can adjust the load between servers by > >> asking the previous hop to reduce its rate. We don't worry for now > >> about how the previous hop does that. > >> > >> Volker will be presenting results that show several > algorithms do a > >> pretty good job of coming close to the optimal goodput > curve. Another > > >> result in the slides is that rate-based feedback, where the > >> downstream node tells the upstream to slow down to a > specific rate, > >> works better than 'bang-bang' algorithms which use the Retry-After > >> field in a > >> 503 to tell the upstream neighbor to stop completely for a > specific > >> amount of time. So, though we are not ruling such > algorithms out yet, > > >> our focus will be on driving additional simulation cases > around the > >> rate-based mechanisms, all of which perform pretty > similarly based on > > >> current simulations. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Jonathan R. > >> > >> Mary Barnes wrote: > >>> Thank you for asking, as I wanted to highlight that Volker > >> Hilt will > >>> be presenting on behalf of the Overload Design team at the ICCRG > >>> meeting next week. Related to that presentation, Lars Eggert > >>> (Transport AD) has given agenda time in the Transport Open Area > >>> meeting for Volker to provide a summary of that presentation: > >>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/agenda/tsvarea.txt > >>> > >>> Note that this does conflict with XCON (and folks in SIMPLE > >> will have > >>> to run to catch the presentation as the TSVAREA slot > >> overlaps the 10 > >>> minute break), but this is likely that best that could have > >> been done > >>> given the difficulty in scheduling RAI sessions in general. > >>> > >>> As folks might recall, the primary feedback at IETF-70 on > >> the Overload > >>> presentation was that we needed to involve the congestion control > >>> experts in the Transport area to get their input in this area, so > >>> that's why this topic is being discussed there this time around. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Mary. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Asveren, Tolga [mailto:tasveren@sonusnet.com] > >>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:40 AM > >>> To: Gonzalo Camarillo; sipping > >>> Cc: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00) > >>> Subject: Draft agenda / No overload design team update? > >>> > >>> Noticed the absence of an update from overload design team, > >> and am now > >>> wondering whether there is any new data ready to be shared > >> with the WG. > >>> Maybe some non-WG meeting to inform the curious crowd? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Tolga > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: sipping-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:sipping-bounces@ietf.org] On > >>> Behalf > >>>> Of Gonzalo Camarillo > >>>> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 7:02 AM > >>>> To: sipping > >>>> Cc: Mary Barnes > >>>> Subject: [Sipping] Draft agenda > >>>> > >>>> Folks, > >>>> > >>>> as you probably know, you can find the draft agenda for > >> the SIPPING > >>>> sessions at: > >>>> > >>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/agenda/sipping.htm > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> > >>>> Gonzalo > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sipping mailing list > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >>>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use > >>>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on > current sip Use > >>>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sipping mailing list > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use > >>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > >>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >>> > >> -- > >> Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 499 Thornall St. > >> Cisco Fellow Edison, NJ 08837 > >> Cisco, Voice Technology Group > >> jdrosen@cisco.com > >> http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: > (408) 902-3084 > >> http://www.cisco.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sipping mailing list https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use > >> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > >> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sipping mailing list https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > > sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > > > -- > Volker Hilt Bell Labs / Alcatel-Lucent > phone: +1 732 888 7206 791 Holmdel-Keyport Rd > email: volkerh@bell-labs.com Holmdel, NJ 07733 > > _______________________________________________ > Sipping mailing list https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current > sip Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > _______________________________________________ > bmwg mailing list > bmwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bmwg > _______________________________________________ > bmwg mailing list > bmwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bmwg > _______________________________________________ PMOL mailing list PMOL@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pmol
- Re: [PMOL] [bmwg] FW: [Sipping] Draft agenda / No… Saverio Niccolini