Re: design teams (was Re: v 1.2, IETF material)

[Dave Crocker <[e-mail]>]

Frank,

    with David Brandin).  Similarly, design teams will be a major piece
    of work, requiring lots of time, etc, etc, etc.

Mumble.  I agree with you, darn it!
    
    I would hate to hold up progress on the IAB/IESG/IETF Reform because
    we are bogging down in the swamps of Design Teams. All I am asking is

Completely agree.  double darn.
    
    Also, even with Formal Design Teams I feel that the issues that you
    cite will arise and that they will take up approximately the same amount

Well, I believe that that is unaacceptable as a steady-state affair.  We
simply _must_ fix this issue.  But no, I don't think a sweep of the 
hand or quick writing of a document will do it.  As with most of our
work, we need to start with a reasonable 'spec' and then refine it
based on experience.  Hence, you are clearly quite right that it
will take time.

     >                           public discomfort about the SMP/SNMPv2 
     > process
    
    I think that the discomfort is not about the fact that Marshall, Keith,
    Jeff and Steve went off and wrote something up. The discomfort that I

Sorry, but I heard strong, frequent grumblings from the start, not just
later.  But I don't want to go into the details of this specific case.
It's one example, albeit a major one.

    	1. J-Random Member says "add foo"
    	2. J-Random Original Author says "No -- foo is a bad idea because..."
    	3. Go to step 1.
    
    This algorithm would be invoked regardless of whether the D.T. concept
    is formalized or not. What is needed in this instance is some mechanism
    to break the loop.

Separate from whether it is an accurate description of the SNMPv2
situation (I truly do not want to get into _any_ of that) the style
you describe sounds pretty generic and is _exactly_ why we need to
flesh out the details of design team, working group, and working group
chair authorities and responsibilities.  E.g., my perception is that
the style you describe happens in many groups and is broken primarily
by a groundswell of wg membership pushing back on the authors.  (Doesn't
matter if I'm right.  My point is that I believe we can deal with this.
But it does further substantiate your initial point that that topic isn't
going to be resolved trivially.)

Dave