Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfill of QUIC for TCP (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt)
Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> Sat, 17 February 2024 06:11 UTC
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 07:11:23 +0100
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Hugo Landau <hlandau@openssl.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com>
Subject: Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfill of QUIC for TCP (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt)
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Hi Christian, On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 08:26:55PM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > I like this design. I know that I will have to add a QUIC over TCP option to > cross some firewalls. QUIC over Streams looks fine, and is a lesser burden > for me than having to implement H2. But then, let's take a step back. > > We want a TCP solution because some networks block UDP. AFAIK, they do that > because they want to monitor the TCP connections, either because they rely > on features of TCP to manage a NAT, or because they rely on features of HTTP > or H2 to manage proxies. I am concerned that the networks that block QUIC > over UDP will also block QUIC over TCP, because they expect H2, not H3S. > > Do we have data on the fraction of networks that block UDP today but would > let H3S through? It depends. I've heard some resistance against QUIC from people operating their own infrastructure who were quite relieved from having managed to totally get rid of UDP in their infrastructure because UDP is significantly more prone to DDoS than TCP, and for them, having to re-enable UDP is perceived as a regression. I'm well aware that it's possible (and to some extents easier) to recognize QUIC datagrams and implement some anti-DDoS mechanism on them, but I can also understand the concerns of those who had to suffer from this for years and who are constantly responding "no" to their customers asking for HTTP/3. I anticipate that some of these might feel safer offering HTTP/3 over QUIC over TCP to their customers. Of course, until browsers implement it, it will be useless, but it already changes the response to "we have H3, it's not our fault if browsers don't use it", then under maintained pressure they might be tempted to go a bit further and finally try to enable QUIC on some servers and see what happens. Thus QUIC over TCP might constitute a less frightening first step for some future adopters. And finally there are probably some applications that would like to use APIs over HTTP/3 inside the infrastructure, which is currently rejected for the same reasons (no UDP here) where H3S could be a nice option. Regards, Willy
- Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfil… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Hugo Landau
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Willy Tarreau
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Poul-Henning Kamp
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Stefan Eissing
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Victor Vasiliev
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Watson Ladd
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Christian Huitema
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Willy Tarreau
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Paul Vixie
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Michael Welzl
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Hugo Landau
- Re: QUIC on streams compared to Minion (was Re: P… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Matt Mathis
- QUIC on streams compared to Minion (was Re: Propo… Lucas Pardue
- Re: QUIC on streams compared to Minion (was Re: P… Michael Welzl
- Re: QUIC on streams compared to Minion (was Re: P… Michael Tuexen
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Florentin Rochet
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Dmitry Adamushka
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Roberto Peon
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Roberto Peon
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Kazuho Oku
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a pol… Lucas Pardue