Re: Receiver Estimated Bitrate Extension

Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> Fri, 12 June 2026 01:17 UTC

Return-Path: <mt@lowentropy.net>
X-Original-To: quic@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: quic@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965A0FFC80DB for <quic@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2026 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1781227066; bh=bNRCDnbs13kVQsL/sp3tji0FvyjZYm1JOXCUQHnDZT4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=sWOuQJnyoWvG/YoShTlGON1yNum1SxXyBWWLNToiWzp1Ld0azsT4zAbMuQKAgdbig OwvCNyHSIvGfeD3LsTRfwVdRkspmyDTCIMN8LnCVe2mLfFA27K5bjKnXcDZPVOcQE9 DB+g+kIqKVN4GjAR0/EbJ+qMAD++fV42eGLfMwwk=
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.799
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b="DTVQ/0MD"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b="RI4U8SrS"
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2uNL16cHcZU for <quic@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2026 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from fout-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com [202.12.124.145]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00F10FFC7ECE for <quic@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2026 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897291D00157; Thu, 11 Jun 2026 21:15:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from phl-imap-15 ([10.202.2.104]) by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Jun 2026 21:15:24 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type :date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1781226924; x=1781313324; bh=j/iSsrVSPTMjd0EcnPcEiNwAY8Xbr9/e dCNJQpsmySk=; b=DTVQ/0MD7nmnI69duWOtg0/CiHqOHzE2+81C2NmX7BnGd2vw 72MC65HVznF7SvnSluAR5POe3pxBs2e3iWsNRxd6jx5m9vmXzoGdVY7Ae9nI9ipo mzkMMM0y3nCdRlTcfCelxyLeL6VF3vlMhn8L3lq+h8NMCZ8XuJh+qQD5a6Rup2WX gKUlbclC2FJ0ZqtQ7v0WGnJSpMtIOayVzU6qxSJOw73ZRt+yJpaXK6A5kfYCJqEE eBsWIFdahpK+Fw0DZ/bGLhUlYK4icES0jP85kEDCsIOLn6fKfZ8SWl3H527Q4OEK gjX5PrzkVWFoLljBy2E5H3iEuqAkuSCR+Cg7LQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1781226924; x= 1781313324; bh=j/iSsrVSPTMjd0EcnPcEiNwAY8Xbr9/edCNJQpsmySk=; b=R I4U8SrSME+cCg3N5XJpC5grP7+LP3tgMuPhpp1zAFxY2UwHQtJ8/tq3yCzts2e8K 9HWIajPP/Hh2X2JL6inFP16TtvF2+gfWFCst9OTVqv8TO12o+2m9P19ndSKEoUn0 MqxD51t6rtvMlM5wh2+sp3vLwIQVXXuLnYFAIQkr/0Q5sHzZhh6adtgTVGYHe/Jr /AK4gCEBDf0EMOhIXacthaEtts9Wh023tgWzgDlBD7836sisd0r0c6rJEiXUbVok JvLkOIhpvDwpXl7iqyRl5Y0J/vkfxYf6ntbkLG8mWglRjPbvmkUoY0kNGOu4p0Et tlEy+2YpdcEmSJvWIPMMw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:rF0ragvqaajiwy29dzrh4aghRInZrah25aBh7M-cD7OhLC6eWO5cmQ> <xme:rF0raoRcEQWozoDPSqiBr_mTnqkAhEVDOKu_vFdBtuS5y8fgVtsd7K6GF3xGTd947 0kW8udnvCUzcYtb6AmInuLHMhdGGEGU2aJPNIaev2kNa9UatXpAzMU>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: dmFkZTFgD7y81GxoITd9QDZ4H2QIu0L6+rE/DRYctAf3oYFi5JOBbf4QMSIUPUqbWLiZxV 6Ky/BoZ7S1vXeS5ue5X2ltGpAiGH1isqg14r1kNgN4ay3ZNdjRHseYGHiNwzC+/cBM6DE9 Ya1uuAVmp5O1lRQ1S87inG+nc4zVNAjfl8i+k/WW0own/ZNBLtZXcwuVAtNt3OAiLnOpf9 kkGwyOW4W64Phz9WeSCtyTj2xTFHX8NG0UbL84SH7zTt21fNy/qk7zBd6FppzzWhrx1yXv EmqTdnaJRXj/RirhpP804YQbGNhanMgs39xtm5cOkXNJwhnxMP9KeQ1k0hIjpnD8Cjh2Y2 CidrRwCBo/i98osRRrexLijQC7Y+sWEQRWM5nNShrVNIVj9xTKRp3FJkAxeYkwv44IjVlg TqtPpy8/U+ED7iXwNlcvIUx17yUEg2heGSym5aQkcVu5VjB5NSwgHRgELGuEDLnnLGa6c1 Gf7baxoFzX8DWC9aU8jCL68Nbo14tWvsuM51+KaPMQEL0Q5rAXCqiaWC8nRZpRKtljaQ1Y oGRohodf6+8c8k8gY9mPy/uG0tqYmPE/6/nvlYv1PfBKVtx+FlTpkhnvAOk8WngHty43Ro WnD6UtMLj8++NBFo/z6PFJMML5QzNkVCavAQ7kLh/zrNltx0/TQAuu77l9bQ
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:rF0ravbp_r4O8_UJxgTXwqK8DUy5Y-sMCxXkR1FmPk96ju3Qjwh8Vg> <xmx:rF0rasXqXoPntTTMQvqhcWeg1Qc2Opl3ou35MbXgeQdfiJNXhAnMfQ> <xmx:rF0raphxuWPYgZoHJu85B5RznlrBJpt1ZcDYJ8Imb4qyTbxDSZJSig> <xmx:rF0raiXZuzdfY8UDPhm4i73bqtbQLw_-bBWVIWuoTCec5raWIGYj5Q> <xmx:rF0rakiUTFnCRYJWcrpxjpK3-EBhVhoobZ5vt9iKyo1p15P-eyTrR23l>
Feedback-ID: ic129442d:Fastmail
Received: by mailuser.phl.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id F026B780070; Thu, 11 Jun 2026 21:15:23 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2026 11:15:02 +1000
From: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: Roberto Peon <fenix=40meta.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Message-Id: <c3207806-2ff9-4e80-aec2-b8a4de248186@betaapp.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAM4vngURKjX0jxqRJqA7DL0sQ7t8XdUVb5oPjQCu=j8snnzrZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVo=Z=ikyys23reoq_ff20PeUfp0Y4Zo3hjCufMA37niyA9Aw@mail.gmail.com> <18940f6a-f921-4854-b91d-bed0b9944660@betaapp.fastmail.com> <CAM4vngURKjX0jxqRJqA7DL0sQ7t8XdUVb5oPjQCu=j8snnzrZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Receiver Estimated Bitrate Extension
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID-Hash: OHA25FCRQQBUL2QRQW2FK6BN5ZSGDZC2
X-Message-ID-Hash: OHA25FCRQQBUL2QRQW2FK6BN5ZSGDZC2
X-MailFrom: mt@lowentropy.net
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-quic.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/afkTHJeORN1CrmMmfN-JZhqBvAI>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:quic-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:quic-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:quic-leave@ietf.org>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2026, at 10:34, Roberto Peon wrote:
> This seems like a variant of FEC?

I don't think that the intent is to specify exactly how the sender probes for more capacity.   It's just that Luke identified redundant sending as a simple way to ensure that the bytes aren't *completely* wasted.  Using full-blown erasure codes might cost more CPU than is justified in this case, but they would work even better.