RE: [AAA-DOCTORS] [Dime] FEDAUTH BOF request

["Bernard Aboba" <[e-mail]>]

Previous tests have shown problems with use of RADIUS/EAP over UDP in
federated scenarios:

http://www.cesnet.cz/doc/techzpravy/2008/eduroam-authentication-over-jammed-
network/

 

As noted in the above paper, once packet loss is introduced, completing the
multiple roundtrips of EAP authentication becomes increasingly difficult. 

 

RADIUS over TCP holds up much better until a threshold is reached, and then
authentication success fractions fall dramatically.   

 

Due to the transport issues and RADIUS packet size limitation of 4096 (which
may impact the ability to transport SAML assertions), it seems like Diameter
would be more suitable.  

 

 

 

 

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Alper Yegin
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:31 AM
To: 'Bernard Aboba'; [e-mail]; [e-mail];
[e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [AAA-DOCTORS] [Dime] FEDAUTH BOF request

 


In particular, the problems of EAP auth (e.g. multiple round-trips, general
fragility in federated uses) become highly toxic when applied to Realtime
applications such as XMPP and SIP.  As we have learned, Digest auth (RFC
5090) has not been widely deployed, in part because of concern about the
additional latency added by a AAA exchange.  For users of real-time
applications, additional latency is a basic, non-negotiable goal.  If the
relatively modest number of exchanges implied by RFC 5090 were intolerable
in realtime applications,  how can we expect EAP exchanges (which can
involve 4-5 times the number of roundtrips of RFC 5090) to be deployed?  The
answer unfortunately, is that there is no chance at all.  

So in summary, I believe that some aspects of the problem statement make
sense, but that a solution has been chosen prematurely.  The right way to
move forward in a situation like this is to begin with a problem statement,
which should include carefully validating the uses cases.  

 

 

Alper> I agree. 

 

Alper> Anyone who was around the ICOS BoF in IETF 62 would remember that the
community was convinced(!) that using EAP for anything other than network
access was a no-no. Now before we embark on marching in  180-degree opposite
direction, I'd say the community needs to be "unconvinced" first. I'm not
saying this is not doable, but something we need to go through first.

 

Alper

 

 

  

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>; "radext mailing list" <[e-mail]>; 
> <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 10:56 PM
> Subject: FEDAUTH BOF request
> 
> 
> Diameter and RADIUS experts should pay attention to the request to hold
> a Federated Authentication (FEDAUTH) BOF which will be discussed this
> morning by the IAB and the IESG.
> 
> The Draft Charter is available at
> http://www.project-moonshot.org/bof/charter/, and more information about
> this BOF or other BOF requests can be examined at
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/
> 
> Dan
> 
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