Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming
CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> Tue, 22 October 2019 07:12 UTC
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From: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:12:05 +0200
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To: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "raw@ietf.org" <raw@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming
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Hi Ethan, Pascal, The use case described in the use-cases draft was intended to be generic, so it describes the Internet gaming with a special focus on the wireless part. If you believe it is clearer to rename it to wireless gaming and to rewrite it a bit so the focus is 100% crystal clear, we can do that. My two cents, Carlos On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 8:59 AM Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> wrote: > Just that as described in the DetNet use case given (and deemed > unsupported), it was Internet-based. That’s it. If it clearly isn’t that, > then no problem. > > Ethan. > > > > *From:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2019 11:03 PM > *To:* Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> > *Cc:* raw@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: gaming > > > > Hello Ethan > > > > I missed the conversation on gaming at DetNet; but RAW might not be a > perfect subset of DetNet and gaming was a core requirement for 802.11 RTA. > > > > Would you have more on why DetNet would not have it? > > Take care, > > > > Pascal > > > > Le 22 oct. 2019 à 04:43, Grossman, Ethan A. <eagros@dolby.com> a écrit : > > > > Hi Pascal et al, > > As I am reading through this draft here are my thoughts: > > > > 1. “provide a Reliable and Available service” – I don’t think this is > a clearly defined term, particularly when capitalized as a proper name. In > lower case each word could be parsed for a definition (“reliability” and > “availability” each have definitions in this context, I would say, e.g. > https://reliabilityweb.com/tips/article/understanding_the_difference_between_reliability_and_availability/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__reliabilityweb.com_tips_article_understanding-5Fthe-5Fdifference-5Fbetween-5Freliability-5Fand-5Favailability_&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=s6yG2meL6NSsvmY66p01BSmIkKPQ07RWSVIXMFRWHRo&s=vUnJ3E-S5ijRAzUE9-I2Uas8goTa_nrxoI1ssy9-L_g&e=>). > I think early in the draft we should carefully define what RAW means in > practice, and how it differs from “deterministic”, the word we are trying > to avoid. Perhaps this definition could be based on the sentence from > section 4: “[A] prerequisite is that an IP link can be established over the > radio with some guarantees in terms of service reliability, e.g., it can be > relied upon to transmit a packet within a bounded latency and provides a > guaranteed BER/PDR outside rare but existing transient outage windows that > can last from split seconds to minutes.” > 2. “getting traction in various industries including .. online gaming… > “. Online gaming is explicitly out of scope for DetNet so even if it has > some possible relevance it will just raise the wrong questions, please > delete. I see that there is a reference to gaming at > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bernardos-raw-use-cases-00#page-10 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dbernardos-2Draw-2Duse-2Dcases-2D00-23page-2D10&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=s6yG2meL6NSsvmY66p01BSmIkKPQ07RWSVIXMFRWHRo&s=WAHEAfxOqBBbkM8-TyoreUuj1Rgqu7Ou25AYTGKy2ns&e=>, > and there the variants appear to be differentiated from “online” (which I > interpret to mean Internet-based) gaming. Maybe one could say “wireless > gaming”, although in the interest of cleanliness I would rather drop it > entirely for the Problem Statement. > 3. “as a first approximation can ignore flapping” – is the meaning of > “flapping” really understood outside the wireless community? > 4. “This signaling enables relays to tune retries and replication to > be met” – Somehow this sentence doesn’t converge for me – maybe you are > trying to say “This signaling enables relays to tune retries and > replication to meet the required QoS”? > 5. Can Informative RFC/drafts be referenced Normatively as done here > with the DetNet and RAW Use Case drafts? > 6. It seems DLEP is rather close to what RAW needs, but extended > (presumably by an independent layer/protocol) to include a more dynamic and > interactive parameterization of the link? I would like to hear in a little > more detail how DLEP could fit in with RAW. > 7. Perhaps a diagram of how RAW would fit in with DetNet would be > helpful? Like what would be the analogous diagram to > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-detnet-ip-over-mpls-02 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Ddetnet-2Dip-2Dover-2Dmpls-2D02&d=DwMGaQ&c=lI8Zb6TzM3d1tX4iEu7bpg&r=ZcHC6wX_gDwPDcfMaFNZiQ&m=s6yG2meL6NSsvmY66p01BSmIkKPQ07RWSVIXMFRWHRo&s=LZQ1i4J_bjDHNEt5b7WdlS59W4sBWOqzAbEWksFdRHk&e=>, > figure 1? I feel like I can see what RAW is trying to do, i.e. enable > per-packet path decisions, but I don’t quite see how that interface to > DetNet would work, e.g. from a layering standpoint. Of course, this may all > be perfectly obvious to one skilled in the art, but sadly I am not. Looking > forward to item #14 below, perhaps we would be replacing the Forwarding > plane shown in [the above mentioned ip-over-mpls figure] with the “RAW > Forwarding plane”? If so, then what else would have to change in that > diagram? > 8. Is the result to be a draft like “detnet-ip-over-raw”? Perhaps a > sort of “imaginary” version of this might be constructed, almost as an > appendix to the Problem Statement? I mean, having some way(s) to let > people visualize more precisely the desired outcome of the exercise I feel > would be helpful to the cause. > 9. “RAW is to provide DetNet elements” – what would those elements > look like? How would they differ from the currently defined elements? How > are they layered and connected? I don’t mean you have to solve the problem, > just visualize what an “ideal” solution would look like. > 10. Is “preserving energy and optimizing the use of the shared > spectrum” too large of an ask here? Perhaps those can be orthogonal to > “reliable and available transport”, and thus we could simplify the problem? > Perhaps they might come along as “free baggage” without having to address > them directly? > 11. “possibly combined with wired Segments” – doesn’t this just come > for free with DetNet? > 12. “possibly sharing physical resources with non- deterministic > traffic” – If this is going to happen below a DetNet flow, shouldn’t this > be out of scope? If it is at the level of DetNet flows, then why does RAW > need to address this? Again I am just trying to simplify to focus the > problem. I gather there is some concern about “is there enough work for a > workgroup here” but I feel like the goals of this draft still seem a bit > diffuse – I would rather see laser focus on the “just in time” per-packet > path decisions, and how that could be interfaced to DetNet. To me that > sounds like a substantial task, worthy of a WG (or not to be expected of > the DetNet WG, anyway). > 13. “a RAW solution will need to address less consistent > transmissions, energy conservation and shared spectrum efficiency.” – Same > comment as above about teasing these apart. (Same comment for similar text > elsewhere). > 14. “it makes sense in the wireless case to provide redundant > forwarding solutions along a complex path and to leave it to the RAW > Network Plane to select which of those forwarding solutions are to be used > for a given packet based on the current conditions.” – So we are to define > the “RAW Network Plane”? Or is that still below us? I think expanding on > this idea would be helpful. “leaves it to the forwarding plane to make the > per-packet decision of which of these possibilities should be used”. Is the > “RAW Network Plane” the “forwarding plane”? If so we should clearly define > this and then use this terminology consistently. > 15. “RAW formalizes a routing time scale that is order of magnitude > longer than the forwarding time scale” – I think this would be clearer if > it were stated the other way around - “RAW formalizes a forwarding time > scale that is an order(s) of magnitude shorter than the [wired DetNet] > routing time scale”. > 16. “RAW needs feedback that flows on the reverse path and gathers > instantaneous values from the radio receivers at each hop to inform back > the source and replicating relays so they can make optimized forwarding > decisions.” – Perhaps this is the key to the whole thing? It is based on > essentially specialized OAM in-band traffic? Maybe that could be shown in > the [proposed] diagram? > 17. “There is a need for an observation method to provide the RAW > forwarding plane with the specific knowledge of the state of the Track for > the type of flow of interest (e.g., for a QoS level of interest). To > observe the whole Track in quasi real time, RAW will consider existing > tools such as L2-triggers, DLEP, BFD and in-band and out-of-band OAM.” – > Again, maybe this starts to answer my questions? Somehow this key > information should be front and center rather than buried late in the Gaps > section of the draft? The following paragraphs (i.e. after the afore-quoted > one) in the Gaps section all seem to me to be key, and should be up front > in trying to describe the approaches considered to solve the problem. Again > maybe this could be structured in the form of a “straw man” solution, to > give the sense of what RAW is going for. > > > > Anyway so much for my uninformed observations. Please make of it what you > will. > > Best, > > Ethan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > > -- > Raw mailing list > Raw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/raw > -- Special Issue "Beyond 5G Evolution": https://www.mdpi.com/journal/electronics/special_issues/beyond_5g
- [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… John Grant
- Re: [Raw] Thoughts on Problem Statement draft: ga… Grossman, Ethan A.
- [Raw] Draft about LDACS just submitted, waiting f… Dr. Corinna Schmitt
- Re: [Raw] Draft about LDACS just submitted, waiti… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- [Raw] draft-maeurer-raw-ldacs-00 is published Dr. Corinna Schmitt