Re: [rfc-i] Seeking community input: Issues with accessibility of artwork used in RFCs

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 06 July 2023 05:11 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: rfc-interest@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rfc-interest@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3CC15106F for <rfc-interest@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 5 Jul 2023 22:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.096
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jPpJafUclQna for <rfc-interest@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 5 Jul 2023 22:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C13EC15199E for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 5 Jul 2023 22:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-66c729f5618so347758b3a.1 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 05 Jul 2023 22:11:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1688620304; x=1691212304; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Mi9SZW+ZBmjfkyUwuXRQZAPxIyk63BcTmp3X55QBmvo=; b=Tj5opFQ84a51VyisDUI8bPfWJq7SHx6M2nQk42vP2Wq1MwE2ALzdMaNr05e06kgrX8 Jdp7LdtTN4sHm5aVhB/Q50y7AB3J7Kns9pSeAJtkkuX9o/yS0h01gT6QOHEVXUYDLY7u ba2nvc5z4oCVYblErabp/AggVRHfOH37cxl/19zWj5SHi0TmkTA2OEOoAgImoHSaUywi KHjLKCmbjU0tfsUX46hDJ7O2G2ERDu75V1LC+oSWk+0qVroVe5IQAzU5KCoEEaf4LnnL a8OyRD2QJKTRT7d4zg87YuhOVvJ9DijD4qMVZJIl425Ta0wKEqzH7l89W+CfFZHnbZGw kujw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1688620304; x=1691212304; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Mi9SZW+ZBmjfkyUwuXRQZAPxIyk63BcTmp3X55QBmvo=; b=ETWtcAir+0ammhvxGoT+AHTaT5TBfJ/6J4No1x/Sa1aZOynAHMjogPEY3wFrvWz/0R CCxZOQ7n5dFHv4eBIrZAPZcj7ErXGnmub6txETYqgDOcMlKpxbhsA0liq7D/qWlECMHf c+dqt3DzZP0vQHSOiGRx6/xJKl0MFamWk2ST27bl86oAcR4Z1LQhu7nkXkw2ZPCSsAuT wvdjFBNWifDSJ/OAYcNKCp1PhFPjrx04wRZc0A5R75Hlg4aKJgVlEt8kcKyM7lmTqDao VM4D8nS/EYRA68M6zJXZ9WYMX3Kla3npGau3DGJOin6MqfYPwF028abiFSDzy2b7n4qU gA+Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLa+lgg0/7gsDPwAy7NcJu/dT74GQV8hg5vE25hbWWaxzTiyG5P/ oanshRlejFcwPf4uOBBrS9V2QqFWWpw=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlHaH97yf+UU73tw1DjOu0nK7PMaUdLYbxkW1wN7BCir3R+RDYsS/u6+R4vrdLBJ3wpyKsy+jA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1803:b0:666:ae6b:c484 with SMTP id y3-20020a056a00180300b00666ae6bc484mr1186298pfa.13.1688620304449; Wed, 05 Jul 2023 22:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPV6:2406:e003:10cc:9901:b2e1:1101:7ba7:19fd? ([2406:e003:10cc:9901:b2e1:1101:7ba7:19fd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s20-20020aa78294000000b0066e7a540ea5sm361705pfm.205.2023.07.05.22.11.43 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jul 2023 22:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <da6446dc-981a-29b6-2eeb-e7753425a20b@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 17:11:39 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.10.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>
References: <2700295F-EE85-44C1-9300-B6C1BAB6A8F8@rfc-editor.org> <16AA303E-82FE-4F09-ADCC-7807D5FA4EF1@tzi.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <16AA303E-82FE-4F09-ADCC-7807D5FA4EF1@tzi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfc-interest/UfZ52dzXzzpn_AR-wQdb32K05wo>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Seeking community input: Issues with accessibility of artwork used in RFCs
X-BeenThere: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "A list for discussion of the RFC series and RFC Editor functions." <rfc-interest.rfc-editor.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/options/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rfc-interest/>
List-Post: <mailto:rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2023 05:11:49 -0000

Not directed at Carsten particularly, but Alexis was asking whether those are the right questions to ask an accessibility expert, not what the answers are.

Regards
    Brian

On 06-Jul-23 15:48, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 5. Jul 2023, at 20:09, Alexis Rossi <rsce@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>>
>> * Greyscale and color are currently forbidden in SVGs. Do they need to be? If either are allowed, what guidance can we use to create a palette and ensure that it is used in an acceptable way?
> 
> Note that there is nothing wrong with using color (hues, lightness/grayscale, saturation) for additional illustrative value, as long as the document is still useful without this.
> 
> E.g., “the red items in the table MUST NOT be used” should not be acceptable if it is the only way a normative requirement is presented, but indicating such a requirement with an asterisk as well as red color is absolutely fine.
> 
> Also, information that is delivered in one way (e.g., ABNF) and then additionally illustrated in another, less accessible way (e.g., railroad diagrams [1]) should never be a problem.
> 
> These examples should make it obvious that striving for accessibility by enforcing some mechanic limitation on expressibility is a misguided approach.
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 
> [1]: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-core-href-12.html#section-5.1.2-1
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
> https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest