[rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing STDs
john-ietf at jck.com (John C Klensin) Sat, 12 April 2014 20:17 UTC
From: "john-ietf at jck.com"
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:17:57 -0400
Subject: [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing STDs
Message-ID: <DB74E354ADF4ACD6A0F54713@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
--On Saturday, April 12, 2014 08:28 +1200 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote: > This is indeed all very problematic. Yes. One additional observation, based on trying to fix the underlying (citations supplied by Brian and a few more) and having written a number of RFCs that fall into the relevant grey areas: (1) There are circumstances in which a reference to an STD as the "current and most up to date version of things that make up that potentially-compound thing" makes sense. I think such references can are only be informative because of the "STDs change" discussion in the earlier notes in this thread. And, to avoid silly states, STD numbers pretty much have to be assigned at PS -- either always or as soon as a new PS updates something that is already part of a STD (hmm... the latter proposal hasn't been made yet although I think it would be the wrong solution). (2) What I have proposed several times now is that the style guide and xml2rfc allow nested references, allowing [STDxx] ... [RFCnnnn] bloggs, J., .... [RFCmmmm] Smith, X., .... (with the RFCxxxx anchors being optional). That would permit a reference to the STD when needed but enumerates the particular RFCs involved, eliminating the volatility problem. Julian's "consisting of" form is consistent with that general idea. Something along those lines is, IMO, the only form that ought to be allowed in a normative reference, with the alternative being no normative STD references at all. The approach does have a significant problem however, which is that STDs (and BCPs) don't have either titles or authors (Julian caught that too). The last time we tried to fix that (but not the first) and some related pieces of the problem was https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-newtrk-repurposing-isd/ I'm actually not sure whether this is an IETF matter or an RFC Editor one. I am sure that the RFC Editor can't fix it without a change in procedures that would permit assigning STD numbers to proposed standards, at least those that update parts of full standards. So it is either an IETF matter or it is blocked until the IETF takes action. The problem is that, IIR, there are published, standards-track, RFCs that reference STDs. Certainly there are published RFCs that reference multi-document BCPs that raise almost the same issues (other than the "what to do about Proposed Standards" one). So, unless the RFC Editor simply wants to ban such references going forward, the Style Manual should probably say something. IMO, it should be very, very, conservative, especially wrt normative references (even normative references to a BCP or STD that currently consists of only a single document). best, john p.s. the main reason I've largely withdrawn from these discussions and am unlikely to see anything on which I'm not explicitly copied is that I have decided to treat "make suggestions, get no response" as equivalent to "no one is interested in your ideas, perspective, or experience; please go away". That personal policy considerably improves the S/N ratio, reduces the workload, and reduces the aggravation load even more.
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Julian Reschke
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Paul Hoffman
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… John C Klensin
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Dave Crocker
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Julian Reschke
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Dave Crocker
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Dave Crocker
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… John Levine
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Dave Crocker
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Dave Crocker
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Heather Flanagan RFC Series Editor
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Paul Hoffman
- [rfc-i] draft-iab-styleguide-02 on referencing ST… Brian E Carpenter