Re: Why need single hop BFD? Does single Hop BFD requires to travese all possoble links beween the two neighbors?
Dave Katz <dkatz@juniper.net> Sun, 08 November 2009 22:36 UTC
Return-Path: <dkatz@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: rtg-bfd@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtg-bfd@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA8E28C0D7 for <rtg-bfd@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:36:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.346
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.252, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSgE56bT85cn for <rtg-bfd@core3.amsl.com>; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:36:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from exprod7og123.obsmtp.com (exprod7og123.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414813A6826 for <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:36:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob123.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKSvdH5Q4KykbKs4u7tGY47NDrIwRuqrkL@postini.com; Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:37:06 PST
Received: from p-emfe01-sac.jnpr.net (66.129.254.72) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.375.2; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:32:47 -0800
Received: from p-emlb01-sac.jnpr.net ([66.129.254.46]) by p-emfe01-sac.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:32:47 -0800
Received: from emailsmtp56.jnpr.net ([172.24.60.77]) by p-emlb01-sac.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:32:46 -0800
Received: from merlot.juniper.net ([172.17.27.10]) by emailsmtp56.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:32:45 -0800
Received: from nimbus-sf.juniper.net (nimbus-sf.juniper.net [172.16.12.139]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id nA8MWiM29237; Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net)
Message-ID: <AE9EB8F4-2D55-4EE0-8A80-B4CBBEAA22C2@juniper.net>
From: Dave Katz <dkatz@juniper.net>
To: Linda Dunbar <ldunbar@huawei.com>
In-Reply-To: <001001ca6074$ef084590$9b805d85@china.huawei.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail-12-239490069"
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Subject: Re: Why need single hop BFD? Does single Hop BFD requires to travese all possoble links beween the two neighbors?
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:32:44 -0700
References: <001001ca6074$ef084590$9b805d85@china.huawei.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936)
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2009 22:32:45.0777 (UTC) FILETIME=[64B23410:01CA60C3]
Cc: rtg-bfd@ietf.org, dward@cisco.com
X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" <rtg-bfd.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtg-bfd>, <mailto:rtg-bfd-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtg-bfd>
List-Post: <mailto:rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtg-bfd-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtg-bfd>, <mailto:rtg-bfd-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:36:42 -0000
On Nov 8, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > Dave and David, > > Forgive me for not aware of the history of the BFD development. > Reading through the “BFD for IPv4 and IPv6 (Single Hop)” (draft-ietf- > bfd-v4v6-1hop-10.txt), I am not clear why single hop BFD is needed, > especially for two immediately connected neighbors. There is Hello > message between two immediate neighbors. Of course, the entire point of 1hop is to run on immediately connected neighbors. > If two immediate neighbors need logical layer to detect any failure > between the two immediate neighbors, they can use the Hello message > to achieve this purpose. Even though Hello message is from control > Plane, it would be much less work for routers/LSRs to monitor the > Hello messages than creating a new BFD session. (a) There may not be any Hello protocol running between adjacent nodes. (A number of folks are using BFD to protect static routes.) (b) The existing Hello protocols in IGPs have a number of failings, which are spelled out elsewhere. (c) BFD is modeled to run in the data plane (though of course implementors can put it wherever they want.) In particular, it's a goal to make it possible to continue to forward traffic (and thus to protect the forwarding path with BFD) even when the control plane is resetting or having other issues. > > Any physical media, like 802.3, SONET, DWDM wavelength all have > physical failure indication. Each neighbor can also use the physical > failure indication to declare the connectivity between two immediate > neighbors, which is much faster than a BFD session, isn’t it? It > also needs less processing on the router/LSR, there won’t be any > proactive periodical sending BFD over the link anymore. There is no system-to-system failure indication in Ethernet, particularly when switches are involved (which is *always* at this point, unless you know someone still using yellow hose and vampire taps) which was a driving reason for doing BFD in the first place. Those of us in the Big Iron business saw lots of Ethernet showing up in POP interconnects, and waiting for IGPs to time out was causing huge traffic losses. > > Can you explain (or add to the document) what is the reason for > having single hop BFD? > Is single Hop BFD only for the Tunnel scenario? From the spec: One very desirable application for BFD [BFD] is to track IPv4 and IPv6 connectivity between directly-connected systems. This could be used to supplement the detection mechanisms in routing protocols, or to monitor router-host connectivity, among other applications. ... This application of BFD can be used by any pair of systems communicating via IPv4 and/or IPv6 across a single IP hop that is associated with an incoming interface. This includes, but is not limited to, physical media, virtual circuits, and tunnels. It's primarily for router interconnection, which given the authors' employers makes sense. But it can be used in any single-hop scenario that fits the deployment requirements. > > In Section 2 (Application and Limitation), the last paragraph does > indicate that the transmitted packets are immediately routed back > towards the sender on the interface over which they where sent if > BFD Echo function is used. But when Link Aggregation is used to > bundle the multiple parallel links between two neighbors, how does > the network layer enforce which link to send back the “echo” message? It can't, obviously. There's no magic. One could argue that it shouldn't, as it is monitoring the liveness of the L3 path, not the individual links. The theory at the time was that BFD could be used at L2 across the individual links if someone wanted to do that, but the Ethernet folks wanted to roll their own OAM or somesuch. > > Even if BFD ECHO can be enforced to be sent back on the same > interface port so that the individual link’s failure can be > detected, what can this fault do when this fault can’t affect the > connectivity between the two immediate neighbors in control plane’s > view? All the links are bundled and two immediate neighbors are > still connected? See above. The 1hop spec is explicitly an L3 play; aggregate links are just single links in that case, so from BFD's standpoint the failure of an individual link will be invisible. --Dave >