Re: [Sedate] A syntax proposal: floating and future times

Neil Jenkins <neilj@fastmailteam.com> Mon, 08 November 2021 04:51 UTC

Return-Path: <neilj@fastmailteam.com>
X-Original-To: sedate@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: sedate@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBE73A08B0 for <sedate@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 20:51:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=syumiKOg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iF4LX9OI
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wABSeyONRPXc for <sedate@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 20:51:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B580B3A08AE for <sedate@ietf.org>; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 20:51:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCB75C0090 for <sedate@ietf.org>; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 23:51:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from imap43 ([10.202.2.93]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 07 Nov 2021 23:51:15 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=Mce/qdk AbXd4Qa9ZR2UQNmYbgFvRU7gvXLgRpns2Phw=; b=syumiKOguk1dl3h80i8Sbrm tNxGpqEFfzOkpZNbmO9stO4cm6dRJnQXCegW6a1ls1B+oY3Vnm1MArydk8ARj1bT 74s7dLwIlx6tsqKQVIH3u43VGXbmqpeVIs+j9epfJayhrP7a8aNA6u1H7ZvrLzAA DA6aVJN4rtNBOkzvNq4Qp2lz5IoZKFM8zc1Q+Ird0AVqdWmtTtBw6q1Y2uVNPx3p IZwobNWLEIpKLv/1LnzBF/1RS3krHVWHZtIuRpx9u2lEemuDOlkBXoSJj1FGXXaD D7fGChE6QRBHy366jW5b+EFqIYS/+es82aMAhr33BB/DTzGBIAjkLmBRWmeqRww= =
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Mce/qd kAbXd4Qa9ZR2UQNmYbgFvRU7gvXLgRpns2Phw=; b=iF4LX9OIkR2A//fG+Uuhn+ H/lY2EmYj3c3eYOXgVnhRJEooqpZZIjx9lf1vSVM165xsxrA6JgI0U4Olr83rz77 lsB5VE6WLLMooRDUzv8ONreN+xx6zk9a3YgV5wOFzkWuVIeRxPZzJ12/gq/Jp6g5 X2epWvL7hxZ3YUAkM0wq2af8ck6Fpe1H3lFL1Fl2MKwNPGzm+X+VR9mL6P3tuTEZ VaxnxJsI1C+rjigEBL36Smo3yu6lBh6Jqusw23cVZK2CokFQnLGifA55whUIz96A 42aj0MZ3qAX/+R3YEulwOmomcLCEJH+HHsuXcQUrVz6ceplwpvlve1ISgFMMbK6Q ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:w6yIYTorrJLDWyGDNqfxyfD7_hJwqBMS3-3dSXSOBd8iYVdaY7QsRw> <xme:w6yIYdqfko8hA-r4MVNdjwgs-0MJFFGF2bBxVd9HjKekFct3s5nOOl7NTYMhSygED U15DlAErruaaA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddruddugdejtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtre erreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdfpvghilhculfgvnhhkihhnshdfuceonhgvihhljhesfhgr shhtmhgrihhlthgvrghmrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehuefhudejtdeive ekvdfhfffgleeflefhfeekhefhkeelkefhfeeufeevffejieenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehnvghilhhjsehfrghsthhmrghilh htvggrmhdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:w6yIYQNEZD0NMN0nCejy6zyGudg_SMIXQIxjLOglxzQLy_3tgOy2eQ> <xmx:w6yIYW4Tc8rfyhwqAJ7kbgFhIsLc65Flz6dLDrnujbguHDrkYAu9zg> <xmx:w6yIYS7eHyBR4Dn5CD326Hfs_LRCtF183MLtXvHNW7JO2uqUPkaiVQ> <xmx:w6yIYUEDvagH1XK67L-Ls7KIX3Y64bm9q-CKwOHCDNXgLMg6UNJ5qg>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2C55DAC0DD1; Sun, 7 Nov 2021 23:51:15 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1420-gdf09e8761c-fm-20211101.001-gdf09e876
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <8964ee5c-463e-44cd-a2b4-e1e1a419337b@dogfood.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <088a5135-1a39-4135-b8d7-e61113e3c143@beta.fastmail.com>
References: <dd7c1028-09bc-4839-b6d4-68e14e99b349@dogfood.fastmail.com> <c0dbaa85-5e5e-409d-a613-9302e9103283@dogfood.fastmail.com> <088a5135-1a39-4135-b8d7-e61113e3c143@beta.fastmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 15:51:14 +1100
From: Neil Jenkins <neilj@fastmailteam.com>
To: sedate@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="559960e6ae0d4175b0d79d01a9885cd6"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sedate/ye1rqEXUxw0bfnxau-sfLds1Bck>
Subject: Re: [Sedate] A syntax proposal: floating and future times
X-BeenThere: sedate@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Serialising Extended Data About Times and Events <sedate.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/sedate>, <mailto:sedate-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/sedate/>
List-Post: <mailto:sedate@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sedate-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sedate>, <mailto:sedate-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 04:51:23 -0000

On Mon, 8 Nov 2021, at 15:23, Bron Gondwana wrote:
> Yes, but... the problem is that this is NOT an RFC3339 plus an extension, it's a subset of RFC3339.  So by putting the offset and the extension to say "adjust the offset to the current timezone", you get a treatment of floating which is basically "local time but we don't know the location/timezone yet".

It strikes me then that the fundamental problem here is that the goal is really to create a standardised serialisation of some date formats **that are not datestamps**, that are commonly used across applications on the web. It should use the same elements of syntax as RFC3339 but it's not exactly an "extension". All the problems seem to stem from trying to enforce that they can also be treated as single points in time.

—Neil