RFC 5436 on Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto
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Subject: RFC 5436 on Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5436 Title: Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto Author: B. Leiba, M. Haardt Status: Standards Track Date: January 2009 Mailbox: leiba@watson.ibm.com, michael.haardt@freenet.ag Pages: 12 Characters: 26519 Updates: RFC3834 I-D Tag: draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-10.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5436.txt This document describes a profile of the Sieve extension for notifications, to allow notifications to be sent by electronic mail. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qsTA069944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n113qsg2069943; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qrYm069937 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 688502044BF; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:53 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 5437 on Sieve Notification Mechanism: Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-Id: <20090201035253.688502044BF@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5437 Title: Sieve Notification Mechanism: Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) Author: P. Saint-Andre, A. Melnikov Status: Standards Track Date: January 2009 Mailbox: psaintan@cisco.com, Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com Pages: 14 Characters: 28448 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-sieve-notify-xmpp-09.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5437.txt This document describes a profile of the Sieve extension for notifications, to allow notifications to be sent over the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), also known as Jabber. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qhQd069927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n113qhn8069926; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qhNx069920 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 1F96E2044BD; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:43 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 5436 on Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-Id: <20090201035243.1F96E2044BD@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:43 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5436 Title: Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto Author: B. Leiba, M. Haardt Status: Standards Track Date: January 2009 Mailbox: leiba@watson.ibm.com, michael.haardt@freenet.ag Pages: 12 Characters: 26519 Updates: RFC3834 I-D Tag: draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-10.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5436.txt This document describes a profile of the Sieve extension for notifications, to allow notifications to be sent by electronic mail. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qeSE069916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n113qep1069915; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bosco.isi.edu (bosco.isi.edu [128.9.168.207]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n113qTps069908 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:52:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org) Received: by bosco.isi.edu (Postfix, from userid 70) id 5A9452044BB; Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:29 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org Subject: RFC 5435 on Sieve Email Filtering: Extension for Notifications From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-Id: <20090201035229.5A9452044BB@bosco.isi.edu> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 19:52:29 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 5435 Title: Sieve Email Filtering: Extension for Notifications Author: A. Melnikov, Ed., B. Leiba, Ed., W. Segmuller, T. Martin Status: Standards Track Date: January 2009 Mailbox: Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com, leiba@watson.ibm.com, werewolf@us.ibm.com, timmartin@alumni.cmu.edu Pages: 17 Characters: 36181 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-sieve-notify-12.txt URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5435.txt Users go to great lengths to be notified as quickly as possible that they have received new mail. Most of these methods involve polling to check for new messages periodically. A push method handled by the final delivery agent gives users quicker notifications and saves server resources. This document does not specify the notification method, but it is expected that using existing instant messaging infrastructure such as Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP), or Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) Short Message Service (SMS) messages will be popular. This document describes an extension to the Sieve mail filtering language that allows users to give specific rules for how and when notifications should be sent. [STANDARDS TRACK] This document is a product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html. For downloading RFCs, see http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html. Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team USC/Information Sciences Institute Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UMbne0008729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:37:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UMbneJ008728; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:37:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UMbbAm008716 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:37:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so310351bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:37:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UdECObcTU52rP9AT+58Ah1FhpA9Q0wFijWaT0GsAEIM=; b=V5+tLOS/MEF+UnbY5Iab4+Y31pF+vIq8RM2lbh0CIPfxysxlQosNiVjgdD/qoZLONk mA4rKmutQwFIoV0OcAwp5/5kAAYcXAVoV9U4VgoC4e4Xwfg9O+5IydikMnK0p85EWcwa Di7atUq4k50YmbIUmmgFmrs2breb3gBX20FVo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=xejQVIXjUOkVbo053t0T649m+o4FC5UJc3iwqKZ9C9Xevxelf0ljhpBapYn89tHJHk KjL3zKSQ5w3ESbJJcc2JbstCd46xkx+HaSA1fJCEyrXCwJI/kfji5QHAoCFXLkB//b5M kJMHQCoLBSTi0vC78rF7Tx+/5XZqtvZILA+YA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.245.15 with SMTP id s15mr414950bkh.169.1233355056928; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:37:36 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901301437o4faa94djfbeb44061048ad53@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Unknown Markup From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> (i left till last since i find this issue difficult to explain and easy to misunderstand. i have proposed the de facto status quo, as i see it. it is a reasonable position though probably not one that i would strongly advocate.) Background ---------- A. Validation Validating that an arbitrary XML document satisfies an specific schema (as opposed to satisfying schema it declares) is - in practice - inconvenient. As a library author, I would not validate unless this was explicitly required by the specification for the following reasons: 1. Though - in theory - modern validating parsers run almost as fast non-validating parser, there is still - in practice - a performance hit associated with obtaining a copy of the schema and parsing it. A catelog would be required for urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:sieve which is often inconvenient. 2. When dealing with a mixed namespace, it is often inconvenient to validate unless a unified schema is available. When mixing a urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:sieve with unknown namespaces, obtaining such a schema would be difficult unless the document supplied one. 3. Schema validation is not - in practice - quite as portable as might be desired. Instead, I would attempt to process the document and then stop the processing with an error if elements were encountered that could not be mapped. It is therefore likely that some processor implementations will choose not to validation using a schema. B. Extension Future extension and versioning of schema is still an open problem. Suppose that a later revision of this specification adds attribute "foo" to "displayblock", and that this attribute may be safely ignored by any older processors which do not understand it. Older processor which validation the document will reject the it. Those which do not will work fine. The ability to extend the specification will therefore vary on the choice made by implementors to valid or not. This makes the ability to extend the specification less certain. Issue ----- The expected behaviour when a processor encounters a document containing markup which it does not understand is not clear. Proposal -------- A processor MAY validate documents against the standard schema and MAY reject any which do not conform. For any document that a processor does not reject as invalid, any markup that the processor cannot understand by reference to this specification MAY be discarded. Rationale --------- I think it is better to say something explicit about this issue. This proposal is not one that I particularly favour but is the de facto status quo as I see it. It is not unreasonable. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJqg6U002040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:52:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UJqgRN002039; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:52:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJqell002032 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:52:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so239289bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:52:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vVGvlUb9LKCXbzjUnzbjhOBW7p9cCdHhvhbXm7nFYnA=; b=i3Vnex504B87XrlcRNLldaJcUwmMhezuRQn0/Ezif2VcaD7zJlSkJ5sxd2ITY7gQJH zS4zdDGYkKoWk72QYMm99My9C2mLZsAF+KtoHiZD2DH6Xgr+9VxrATK0+az1er1wuqJt SJHi+TTJBLCipzF0tB32LdDGjVUATioglcXbM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jGHas3o5TO6DPgIUAnP9tRvytTRRNNH4SDhOiOnfL0fPoK9rjcZM5jGdO0nlw2eEdC YK3Lx7lP/MxHFghWFvIlRWdG/y9RYDaCGGBVoPJddBzwDpITnQnUGstrCBg0gesBWwkU QxzfpxbALYEpdo3qyuahddc+5Q7hrJh/9AIj0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.181.216.14 with SMTP id t14mr551635bkq.8.1233345159285; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:52:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSO.2.00.0901301046400.9809@vanye.sendmail.com> References: <f470f68e0901300913o76065b2dr1d5ec17c61039d11@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.BSO.2.00.0901301046400.9809@vanye.sendmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:52:39 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901301152ud363241x686408b8ed8c9904@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Escaping "*/" In Structured Comments From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2009, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: > ... >> Proposal >> -------- >> To "4.2. Structured Comments" Add: >> >> If "*/" is found in the XML content, when mapped into a comment it >> would prematurely terminate that comment. Escaping of this sequence >> would often be inconvenient for processors. Editors SHALL NOT include >> "*/" within displayblock, displaydata or foreign markup. Processors MAY >> regard documents containing "*/" in foreign markup, displayblock >> or displaydata as invalid. > > Ick. Wouldn't it be better to tell processors to generate '#' style > comments instead of /*...*/ style comments, at least in that case? better for some editors but worse for some processors and line endings would also need some thought. this would be tricky to implement in XSLT (say). i think it not unreasonable to expect sieve editors to adopt a meta-data schema that plays well with Sieve >> To "5. Security Considerations" Add: >> >> Little effective protection can be offered by a processor to the user >> of a malicious editor. > > How is this specific to sieve-in-xml and not just a general consideration > for anyone using any editor for any purpose? yes, it is a general consideration. i thought the rest of that section similar. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJICWE000756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:18:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UJICcP000755; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:18:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJI0Zo000747 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:18:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00D74AC5B; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:17:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1233343079-9030-1/6/97 (3 recipients); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:17:59 +0100 Message-Id: <7BYuAbmrBYL+LrlFbeaiTA.md5@lochnagar> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:18:40 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Emphasis Whitespace Preservation Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> <01N4WK05GMNY00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N4WK05GMNY00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: > In any case, I agree with you that emphasizing this is a good idea and > will add the suggested requirement to the specification. An example using vacation mighth also help, perhaps vacation :text since trimming whitespace often $#@$#@$! breaks that. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJ9U8w000298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:09:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UJ9UhO000297; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:09:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ladle.sendmail.com (ladle.sendmail.com [209.246.26.53]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJ9JbS000283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:09:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from spork.sendmail.com (tls.sendmail.com [209.246.26.41]) by ladle.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Sentrion-3.0.0) with ESMTP id n0UJCgcG029736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:12:42 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=ladle.dkim; t=1233342762; bh=3+wtNDIiHKpYLy5AnYidJB22xSvJtVnCEzlw ui6iz1Y=; h=Received:X-DKIM:DKIM-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To: cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:User-Agent: MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-MM-Ex-RefId; b=YmaZr9z3UOVOxkKtm0GT8yi Evnpm00j5bt8yjKAVuXi2X0/BxxcTxshktV0rYaJiORWPLrpx6ojGmKhTTkkNK+ZmRi ds1CcYCc78vKXG7BcODDfi2vdVEMIOipU3RHQDK9K2+5oK7SqSeL7Lr++tgu/4CX+r5 VMun+Vmsjk0SWg= Received: from [10.210.202.20] ([10.210.202.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by spork.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.3mp/Switch-3.3.2mp) with ESMTP id n0UJ9EZD012563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:09:15 -0800 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.5.6 spork.sendmail.com n0UJ9EZD012563 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=spork.dkim; t=1233342556; bh=3+wtNDIiHKpYLy5AnYidJB22xSvJtVnCEzlw ui6iz1Y=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID: References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZcnPPW0OI+VfNmaBFkLcFKpBSZ vir7RnBYo9a0Sr95NtTKEoXYOW1jiPJ7A1ZfShtpTA/zDVsf9wVB8wbAAhjHE9B7BQI csAgFuq5TDdYR6mOqEVuhrCq0aUaaPwFbTvhkL6bdvoZYrDHQx4Cjvyq9aDxitIp65t wqanutDO8o0= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:09:14 -0800 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.sendmail.com To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> cc: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Escaping "*/" In Structured Comments In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901300913o76065b2dr1d5ec17c61039d11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.BSO.2.00.0901301046400.9809@vanye.sendmail.com> References: <f470f68e0901300913o76065b2dr1d5ec17c61039d11@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSO 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-MM-Ex-RefId: 149371::090130110915-1112CB90-546C33EF/0-0/0-1 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: ... > Proposal > -------- > To "4.2. Structured Comments" Add: > > If "*/" is found in the XML content, when mapped into a comment it > would prematurely terminate that comment. Escaping of this sequence > would often be inconvenient for processors. Editors SHALL NOT include > "*/" within displayblock, displaydata or foreign markup. Processors MAY > regard documents containing "*/" in foreign markup, displayblock > or displaydata as invalid. Ick. Wouldn't it be better to tell processors to generate '#' style comments instead of /*...*/ style comments, at least in that case? > To "5. Security Considerations" Add: > > Little effective protection can be offered by a processor to the user > of a malicious editor. How is this specific to sieve-in-xml and not just a general consideration for anyone using any editor for any purpose? Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJ8WgQ000262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:08:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UJ8WYv000261; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:08:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UJ8Ut8000254 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:08:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WKVEJMU800WSWN@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:08:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WIIQ1C9S00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:08:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:53:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Emphasis Whitespace Preservation In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:42:23 -0800" <6425358d47383796985622e2a4fd9378@serendipity.cx> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Message-id: <01N4WKVDBG2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> <6425358d47383796985622e2a4fd9378@serendipity.cx> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Also, the RFC Editor will want to add Oxford commas and quotes around > "str", "num", and "tag" for clarity :-) Yes, I'm well aware of the RFC Editor's fondness for Oxford commas, so I try to include them when I'm writing specifications even though I generally don't use them in other contexts. If you spot any place I've left out one of these commas let me know and I'll insert it. (Minimizing the number of changes the RFC Editor does makes the AUTH48 process go smoother.) As for Oxford quotes, I'm not entirely clear on the convention the RFC Editor prefers, so I looked at a few published RFCs. It seems the general idea is to quote it the first time it appears (but not counting an appearance in a section title) but not subsequently. I'll try and follow that practice in the next revision. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIhJIS099210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:43:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UIhJFC099209; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:43:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIhI1t099203 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:43:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WK06HZLS00WOQZ@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WIIQ1C9S00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:43:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:41:01 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Emphasis Whitespace Preservation In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:27:44 +0000" <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Message-id: <01N4WK05GMNY00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Issue > ----- > Implicit whitespace preservation. > Original > -------- > In "4. XML Representation of Sieve" > String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and > tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag > identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these > elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments > have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test > examples. > Proposal > -------- > String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and > tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag > identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these > elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments > have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test > examples. Any whitespace in the str body content MUST be preserved > by the processor. > Rationale > --------- > This isn't a major issue but based on experience with HTML, developers > too often assume that whitespace should be trimmed. It is therefore > worthwhile emphasizing explicitly that whitespace is expected to be > preserved. Yeah, it sort of falls out of the whole empty whitespace text node thing and how whitespace is dealt with in stylesheets. In any case, I agree with you that emphasizing this is a good idea and will add the suggested requirement to the specification. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIdNuV099033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:39:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UIdN1l099032; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:39:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIdDh7099023 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:39:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from serendipity.cx (unknown [10.10.10.34]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EA62936; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:42:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:42:23 -0800 From: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Emphasis Whitespace Preservation In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> References: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6425358d47383796985622e2a4fd9378@serendipity.cx> X-Sender: aaron@serendipity.cx User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:27:44 +0000, Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote: > Issue > ----- > Implicit whitespace preservation. > > Original > -------- > In "4. XML Representation of Sieve" > > String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and > tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag > identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these > elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments > have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test > examples. > > Proposal > -------- > String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and > tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag > identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these > elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments > have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test > examples. Any whitespace in the str body content MUST be preserved > by the processor. > > > Rationale > --------- > This isn't a major issue but based on experience with HTML, developers > too often assume that whitespace should be trimmed. It is therefore > worthwhile emphasizing explicitly that whitespace is expected to be > preserved. +1, whitespace should be preserved for string arguments. Also, the RFC Editor will want to add Oxford commas and quotes around "str", "num", and "tag" for clarity :-) Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIcgdj099005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:38:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UIcgXQ099004; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:38:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UIcfm5098998 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:38:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WJTH6V6800VEM5@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4WIIQ1C9S00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:38:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:19:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Minor Improvements In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:39:32 +0000" <f470f68e0901300839l778e52ffkb8079904e093f47@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N4WJTG8XM600007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0901300839l778e52ffkb8079904e093f47@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > (Some minor suggestions, typos, etc. I've batched these up since they > are not substantial.) > In "3. Grammatical structure of Sieve" > ====================================== > Original > -------- > Finally, comments are allowed between lexical elements in a Sieve > script. It is very important that comments be preserved in the XML > representation. > Comment > ------- > This is covered later but perhaps a little justification should be > offered at this point for the last remark > Suggested > --------- > Finally, comments are allowed between lexical elements in a Sieve > script. One important use case for comments is encoding meta-data > about the script, a facility which is lacking in the Sieve language. > Therefore comments should be preserved in the XML representation. Good idea. I'll add this or something very close to it. > In "4.1. XML Display Directives" > ================================ > Original > -------- > However, such information can be represented in XML very easily so it > makes sense to define a framework to do this as part of the XML > format. Implementations may choose to use structured comments to > retain this information when the script is converted to normal Sieve > format. > Comment > ------- > I think "may" should be "MAY" > Suggested > --------- > However, such information can be represented in XML very easily so it > makes sense to define a framework to do this as part of the XML > format. Implementations MAY choose to use structured comments to > retain this information when the script is converted to normal Sieve > format. Seems reasonable. Changed. > In "4.2. Structured Comments" > ============================= > Original > -------- > 2. Displaydata elements are placed in Sieve bracketed comments > begining with the string "/* [|" and ending with the string "|] > */". > Comments > -------- > Typo (begining) > Easier to read when quoted text is not split > Suggested > --------- > 2. Displaydata elements are placed in Sieve bracketed comments > beginning with the string "/* [|" and ending with the string > "|] */". Good catch - since I'm usually looking at the XML source I tend to miss stuff like this in the final output. Unfortunately AFAIK xml2fc doesn't have a "nonbreaking space" construct available, so I had to reword the sentence to get the break to appear in the right place. Of course the RFC Editor gets a crack at this, and has been known to reword things, so this problem may reappear. I'll try to be alert to it during the final approval process so we don't end up with this problem in the RFC. > Original > -------- > 3. The begininng of a displayblock element is mapped to a bracketed > Sieve comment beginning with the string "/* [*" which then lists > any displayblock attribute names and values in XML format. The > end of a displaydata element is mapped to a comment of the form > "/* *] */". > Comments > -------- > Typo (begininng) > Suggested > --------- > 3. The beginning of a displayblock element is mapped to a bracketed > Sieve comment beginning with the string "/* [*" which then lists > any displayblock attribute names and values in XML format. The > end of a displaydata element is mapped to a comment of the form > "/* *] */". Fixed. Thanks for the review. I'll post a revised draft in a day or to that includes these and a few other fixes. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UHRtQV095348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:27:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UHRtSI095347; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:27:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.240]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UHRi7B095331 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:27:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so618129rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:27:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1DJTmOraVLdpkYHw7Jg8cADhEjr/D7/723zfeMDIwcE=; b=L+7ctksUZsfpuSFaXkJWwCqwwu9/dDVVzY+cXcCGTZrIG0UKtveGTtOlvO0Ln6SkJF EpoxAuTJ4bBkdCwvxWNu3UCRPDc7zkYstkiwhOjPGdqWtsKb+M5feKd/QmJ6Omd7ZQ4W 9BrrW+JNles0u28ru4t2iGelEz4Z9RrDbIiqs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=tufFfjwz6svNSysCvRk6rbZXs6mkUIFtcOzLLXDDMJ+ZS8AxoM8ENCvwNa/1pyP82o qWLP2XpRRjsD7yEfoo1MV7ZH8ei+6LHYh1dTJ0rGT/H/TTO0wdExyQY9G4XFwnOBnSBC meVxaQXJRMsVIH+MmO3ei4Etjs5kTLmdLhpMg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.168.1 with SMTP id q1mr550867wae.152.1233336464213; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:27:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:27:44 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901300927q36de6cf7m317c3107285f8cf3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Emphasis Whitespace Preservation From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Issue ----- Implicit whitespace preservation. Original -------- In "4. XML Representation of Sieve" String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test examples. Proposal -------- String, number, and tag arguments are represented as str, num, and tag elements respectively. The actual string, number, or tag identifier appears as text inside the element. None of these elements have any defined attributes. Several examples of arguments have already appeared in the preceding control, action and test examples. Any whitespace in the str body content MUST be preserved by the processor. Rationale --------- This isn't a major issue but based on experience with HTML, developers too often assume that whitespace should be trimmed. It is therefore worthwhile emphasizing explicitly that whitespace is expected to be preserved. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UHDNOX094375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:13:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UHDNn7094374; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:13:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.181]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UHDC8O094358 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:13:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so256069waf.26 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:13:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fqi9tekbNSzv27XCrHnbSmp1f14xToAQMYzQBPiSN7w=; b=S95t8dTqCoX5XtKC1IYYKFVpadpIo9qJKvRaPuRBNXCF9qQC/sIV65rbxY11ty1WVG i/zDFrXBsgjspOJANl4GQjYeTFmhjQL8Ruj4WG7n5ZI4LlzZfbEfNL4AlWUA+3phzDhM 3snuN0VHKKPCClR1MGKS6v78wtt/mYoH6Y1cc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=M2jIhQ2A7Z0T6MAg3zjfKTNMO41QY9x0tPtvFZq1m7d7cqZJjcowpCGyE+U71kUJph mKoQGExA1gU+6FNby6TB01yB8LzZ4hOZk+YxGPtHiBqzGjoTeBON31gfU8UyLe0759ci +IEzNS8uzwdAP5LlZ6CyAOIfWuvZ7Jw24pzBc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.197.10 with SMTP id u10mr908942waf.174.1233335592332; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:13:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:13:12 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901300913o76065b2dr1d5ec17c61039d11@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Escaping "*/" In Structured Comments From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Issue ----- No discussion is made about the merits of escaping content which will be transformed into structured comments. For example, the following fragment might be used to smuggle content into the script: <displayblock><trouble>*/ if header :contains "from" "enemy@example.edu" { discard; } /*</trouble></displayblock> Proposal -------- To "4.2. Structured Comments" Add: If "*/" is found in the XML content, when mapped into a comment it would prematurely terminate that comment. Escaping of this sequence would often be inconvenient for processors. Editors SHALL NOT include "*/" within displayblock, displaydata or foreign markup. Processors MAY regard documents containing "*/" in foreign markup, displayblock or displaydata as invalid. To "5. Security Considerations" Add: Little effective protection can be offered by a processor to the user of a malicious editor. Rationale --------- Only limited protection can be offered to the user by a processor against a malicious or buggy editor. The effectiveness of that protection should b weighed against the implementation complexity. Escaping is inconvenient for processors and introduces complexity for very little security gain. Editors control the meta-data they wish to insert and it is simpler just to ensure that this meta-data does not contain "*/". Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UH4YXp093658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:04:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UH4Ywj093657; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:04:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.170]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UH4N2v093638 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:04:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so559906wfc.28 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tA/F2TE5sxdi71SjK6T+TtRX1ln9Ro3fOjpMYPnWgIc=; b=Vwy6tiM2eqqsm1Lsj/FtxP/1Cmf84XZ8eH0yUB+bY4UOlxFEtEtUQU7DcIFuXZcrTA VEby6Cm+HbIABIh4AM48fzIlk/xy5pNIY1oYEwemUXQ2TzbqimNuygD3epgSR1g+6WGb LBTpGowq0wqV4CcToZCcIrH+2UKwLzE+d4QwI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cF43DN0JuHBiDf48tagxGv8zv1SCR/WFKTiAhVZxX4t/jNwKvBu6RtVBHWSc03IQZJ 9s0Bw8m2RT+C0kku903ZmIuZ+CByOdeFcKKNlZMkiBUE03Nxv37buhOSN4C7YpLxiKVR xi48mxVPCC6t7b3/5MLVA78Mz1kRkKiWBTrX0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.91.11 with SMTP id t11mr909834wal.117.1233335062439; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:04:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:04:22 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901300904q5a439ae7ia0cc0532ecd830d8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Preservation Of Meta-Data During An Editing Session From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Issue ----- Clarify expectations of meta-data preservation during editing. Proposal -------- To "4.1. XML Display Directives" add: Editors MAY use displayblock, displaydata and foreign namespaces to associate meta-data which SHOULD be preserved by the processor during Sieve script translation. Some editors find it inconvenient to preserve this additional data during an editing session. Editors MAY preserve this data during an editing session for compatibility with other editors. Rationale --------- Use Case A: A class of XML editors work on document structure, as expressed by the schema. These editors find it inconvenient to work with schema containing elements not intended to be user editable. Use Case B: An editor may find it difficult to reconcile it's own meta-data with meta-data added previously by a different implementation. This makes it difficult to preserve foreign meta-data during an editing session. The proposal clarifies this issue by recommending (but not insisting) that editors preserve existing meta-data during an editing session. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UGhXIg092586 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:43:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UGhXOW092585; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:43:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.180]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UGhM1o092572 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:43:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so250102waf.26 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:43:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Lq2Crbp0ASJxx43tJ1EcZ3hFpr4qEkiXAugdr8O5+fU=; b=f9lax3iuXVmPUsBniWN9O1IFVpeb6vrudSkoAelE42uxlgewWasvsEKeiS1/Hd931+ haN/GjoEwwkDpsswydsuLqYAwCqJrCmJGOG5UhU+EkleB+WQUNsIEK51zx736G+GWBXq W3qZ5UgkEBvTGzOoCcsuaoXTMuaSHEewcOGCM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Uy0MRf7dPBu7bvvvg2s7FlNJsH1Ts5Oj9SJHSHLcfHWFCV8HWhhMslYs294ZUtQnVk I7Nl9i8UtKqROMu3FEeBkB6I9PtksqzTdewBarJL3w2w++VAO5nfChmQy6/1yDrzxXbE HyNST93opFObWYXUk5GtvNY4Z7yL7xxn+ZUOE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.67.2 with SMTP id p2mr888064waa.208.1233333802009; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:43:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:43:21 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901300843o266f2d91j2f45aa99fe6b39d8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Commentary On displayblock and displaydata Elements From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> I regard displayblock and displaydata as inelegant and I do not see their necessity. However, I am satisfied that the new draft both describes them well, provides a rationale for their existance, and specifies a clear and reasonable way to map them into a Sieve script. As an library author, this is sufficient. I therefore have no complaint about their inclusion in the draft. Robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UGditK092311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:39:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0UGdiBe092309; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:39:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.250]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0UGdWvV092298 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:39:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so596122rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:39:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gn+YbRYJbL9eETbtqe2x6gq8UvsXfwUnKqUqQPJfQDM=; b=ADHpcDMrwJAg6mFOJRZT/KhkZsXvAfDCfW+rAoy0Xes4o/D2TUe5qSdGHOTbRzW9So 44OOehWrKd4cqwodqnMHU2zSjVndgZj0rtLv4JVRTCSKyhkTSZiKmMbxcckIGzlZp+Nw BFUSArKiCs71zRIqY9ypXPSTYGKGc4jl3Xe5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=f9z8TXd4OLU05spJkGgeFW9ued0atW/P4sHzhSGIMuZKHSgfQyJ/2kMCjduFidVmI8 OlyYiVTxieblYjzAeEdXDK/xO4uIGgqhnee8pmN02+luKLelZbT1OoDvJzxHHR+CijYe nEhx5sqq5YdftQVMPWi5qGWIYHBLJhRSOBPTQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.111.1 with SMTP id j1mr891743wac.153.1233333572575; Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:39:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:39:32 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901300839l778e52ffkb8079904e093f47@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02] Minor Improvements From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> (Some minor suggestions, typos, etc. I've batched these up since they are not substantial.) In "3. Grammatical structure of Sieve" ====================================== Original -------- Finally, comments are allowed between lexical elements in a Sieve script. It is very important that comments be preserved in the XML representation. Comment ------- This is covered later but perhaps a little justification should be offered at this point for the last remark Suggested --------- Finally, comments are allowed between lexical elements in a Sieve script. One important use case for comments is encoding meta-data about the script, a facility which is lacking in the Sieve language. Therefore comments should be preserved in the XML representation. In "4.1. XML Display Directives" ================================ Original -------- However, such information can be represented in XML very easily so it makes sense to define a framework to do this as part of the XML format. Implementations may choose to use structured comments to retain this information when the script is converted to normal Sieve format. Comment ------- I think "may" should be "MAY" Suggested --------- However, such information can be represented in XML very easily so it makes sense to define a framework to do this as part of the XML format. Implementations MAY choose to use structured comments to retain this information when the script is converted to normal Sieve format. In "4.2. Structured Comments" ============================= Original -------- 2. Displaydata elements are placed in Sieve bracketed comments begining with the string "/* [|" and ending with the string "|] */". Comments -------- Typo (begining) Easier to read when quoted text is not split Suggested --------- 2. Displaydata elements are placed in Sieve bracketed comments beginning with the string "/* [|" and ending with the string "|] */". Original -------- 3. The begininng of a displayblock element is mapped to a bracketed Sieve comment beginning with the string "/* [*" which then lists any displayblock attribute names and values in XML format. The end of a displaydata element is mapped to a comment of the form "/* *] */". Comments -------- Typo (begininng) Suggested --------- 3. The beginning of a displayblock element is mapped to a bracketed Sieve comment beginning with the string "/* [*" which then lists any displayblock attribute names and values in XML format. The end of a displaydata element is mapped to a comment of the form "/* *] */". Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0TMEZIN043196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:14:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0TMEZSp043195; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:14:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.184]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0TMEN5k043173 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:14:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w9so116064mue.4 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:14:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3PBdw+5SCKZg7GcFz7d5IboHPg9leuIA0YtYsp0We5Q=; b=eqrltJZpwzsZFFErny5UAcr0n1ZcVBqvlzyVHn5YaHA8Fqe+NyHz2ZYNLO3fMZB6tX 3nsh1pDQ3uBAkixX5unsBBVb9JEVToWZMP9gHUeQRVsKBDYqBlzb2TJcXRFFovUkr6im 3GKWZmd5fb5VlTAKGiu5Dq2fNNIM1BASE31ig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IMruhqXD2WXMQj0R36k85JTmcKiuQw+5GyC+grz758gjuMhCo/5MVvDp0aKLK2sm+d MKa9HbIO5rdxYoURJ7o3kmOQfBVccSdeswb4ftKv4umhobcOKNIC7mdq71bFj3Z0fYqY yXpONfICYI53eHqDVsC9m563hITLw6EKRknCQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.181.58.9 with SMTP id l9mr173259bkk.98.1233267262591; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:14:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <496FBBF7.1050504@isode.com> References: <496FBBF7.1050504@isode.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:14:22 +0000 Message-ID: <f470f68e0901291414q21cac5d5o5640c27298c0d3bd@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: WGLC on draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02.txt From: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote: > > Hi folk, > With my co-chair hat on: > > This message officially starts the Sieve Working Group Last Call for the > following document: > > Sieve Email Filtering: Sieves and display directives in XML > > <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02.txt> > > The Working Group Last Call for this document starts on January 15th and > will end on January 30th. Please send any comments to the Sieve mailing list > or to the document authors. If you chose to do the latter, please CC both > Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> and Alexey Melnikov > <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>. Reviews that found no issues are also welcomed, > so if you review the document and find it acceptable, please let the mailing > list/authors+chairs know as well. > > Also, in order to simplify tracking of various issues, please clearly mark > each issue in the message (ideally in the subject header field, sending 1 > issue per email message). Also, I would strongly encourage to provide > specific suggestions for solving issues you've raised (or at least show an > example of how your issue can be addressed). i'm in general much happier with this draft. i have a small number of issues which i'll raise in separate mails tomorrow. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0MEZPNL070916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:35:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0MEZPfg070915; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:35:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0MEZCl4070902 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:35:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC89D4AC44; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:35:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1232634911-9030-1/6/10 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:35:11 +0100 Message-Id: <4fmKg5w/V+h9VUUApWGx8w.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:35:38 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4JUHG5P4Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N4JUHG5P4Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: >> I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. > > Me too. In fact I had to deal with exactly this case recently because > I just improved checking of tagged arguments in our implementation. > And I have to agree there's nothing to be done about it. Heh. Improve it to handle this. Consider the extensions random, which provides a test which returns true or false randomly, and well, which provides a tag for fileinto. require [ "random", "ihave" ]; if anyof( random, not ihave "well" ) { fileinto :well "a"; } elsif random { fileinto :well "b"; } else { fileinto :well "c"; } Two of those three blocks are bad. Which ones? I have NOT improved my code to the point of handling this. > A similar case I've seen come up many times over the years is that of > scripting languages that allow abbreviations. So you write something > like this in a script: > > $ rec foo (REXX?) > I suppose another way to think of it is as an untested code path > which, when finally activated, is found to contain a bug. But thqt > doesn't provide much solace either. No... I hate it when person x changing something here breaks something for person y over there. Too great potential for sending either/both of them chasing wild geese. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LLp6me011105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LLp6mF011104; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx-p2.cc.nd.edu (mx-p2.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.58]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LLosB1011081 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from prussell@nd.edu) Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by mx-p2.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.3.0/Switch-3.3.0) with ESMTP id n0LLpgHH027824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:51:43 -0500 Received: from [172.19.226.65] (nat20.cc.nd.edu [129.74.4.120]) (authenticated bits=0) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.2.2/Switch-3.2.2) with ESMTP id n0LLopeI015515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:50:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <497798B9.4030701@nd.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:50:49 -0500 From: Paul Russell <prussell@nd.edu> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ietf-mta-filters@imc.org" <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4JUHG5P4Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N4JUHG5P4Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Source-IP: 129.74.250.227 X-ND-MTA-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:51:43 EST Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On 1/21/2009, someone who shall remain nameless wrote: > > A similar case I've seen come up many times over the years is that of > scripting languages that allow abbreviations. So you write something like this > in a script: > > $ rec foo > > where rec is an abbreviation for "recover". This works because there's no other > command that begins with "rec". Then the system is upgraded, and a new "recall" > command is added. And the script breaks because now "rec" is ambiguous. (And > yes, this example really happened.) Gosh, I can't remember the last time I was bitten by that kind of sloppy coding, but it was probably shortly after I started programming on an IBM 370-148, back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth. -- Paul Russell, Senior Systems Administrator OIT Messaging Services Team University of Notre Dame prussell@nd.edu Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LGnDrp095055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:49:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LGnDK7095054; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:49:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LGnCBL095048 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:49:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from [172.16.1.33] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170412936; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:51:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades From: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> Cc: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>, Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <60B92C4661E40FB8DD5F41E6@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> <60B92C4661E40FB8DD5F41E6@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:49:19 -0800 Message-Id: <1232556559.11360.42.camel@turtle> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 10:46 -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > --On Wednesday, January 21, 2009 07:37:46 AM -0800 Aaron Stone > <aaron@serendipity.cx> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 09:57 -0500, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >> Hi Kjetil, > >> > >> --On January 21, 2009 2:37:50 PM +0100 Kjetil Torgrim Homme > >> <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> wrote: > >> > >> >> I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles > >> >> me. > >> > > >> > good point. one solution is to remove dead code (e.g, like Cyrus' > >> > "byte compile") from the script at upload time. > >> > >> Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" > >> tool that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an > >> upload a script) and report problems that the admin can take action on. > > > > I don't think that's realistic -- some extensions can be implemented > > entirely by the interpreter, with no need for any other part of the mail > > system to get involved. So if the interpreter (a shared library, let's > > say) is upgraded, there's no good way to inform the mail system what > > changed and to run a lint process. > > I think you're misinterpreting Cyrus's point. The idea is not that the > mail system somehow automagically looks for problems and starts notifying > people about them. The idea is that there is a tool the admin can run to > look for problems in a script. Depending on the implementation model, this > might come with the interpreter or with the mail server. Ah, the existence of such a tool is certainly reasonable (as I note to myself to write one for my mail server). And to Cyrus' reply on reading release notes, yes, that's very reasonable, too. Failing both, though, I'd handle it just like any other unexpected runtime failure of a script -- drop a note in the user's Inbox indicating that their Sieve script isn't working and all mail will be delivered to their Inbox for now. Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LGNTRG093486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:23:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LGNTMF093485; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:23:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LGNIs5093476 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:23:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4JUHHTTHC00IE2E@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4J88PSFM800007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:23:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:12:32 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:54:52 +0100" <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N4JUHG5P4Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > I implemented ihave. It was easy. I ran into a strange point, though. > require "ihave"; > if ihave "foo" { > foo :dwimfactor 4; > } > There are three cases. > 1. Server supports foo at upload. Upload results in a managesieve error > such as "NO Maximum DWIM factor is 3". Fine. > 2. Server doesn't support foo, period. Upload succeeds, execution > succeeds. Fine. > 3. Server doesn't support foo at upload, but is later upgraded to a new > version which supports foo. Now the script fails when run. Not so fine. > It riles me that one thing can break because another is upgraded. > I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. Me too. In fact I had to deal with exactly this case recently because I just improved checking of tagged arguments in our implementation. And I have to agree there's nothing to be done about it. A similar case I've seen come up many times over the years is that of scripting languages that allow abbreviations. So you write something like this in a script: $ rec foo where rec is an abbreviation for "recover". This works because there's no other command that begins with "rec". Then the system is upgraded, and a new "recall" command is added. And the script breaks because now "rec" is ambiguous. (And yes, this example really happened.) I suppose another way to think of it is as an untested code path which, when finally activated, is found to contain a bug. But thqt doesn't provide much solace either. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFkcav091009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:46:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LFkc9R091008; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:46:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFkQ9D090994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:46:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from atlantis-home.pc.cs.cmu.edu (ATLANTIS-HOME.PC.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.184.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n0LFkGbC006367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:46:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:46:20 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx>, Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, jhutz@cmu.edu Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades Message-ID: <60B92C4661E40FB8DD5F41E6@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --On Wednesday, January 21, 2009 07:37:46 AM -0800 Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 09:57 -0500, Cyrus Daboo wrote: >> Hi Kjetil, >> >> --On January 21, 2009 2:37:50 PM +0100 Kjetil Torgrim Homme >> <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> >> >> I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles >> >> me. >> > >> > good point. one solution is to remove dead code (e.g, like Cyrus' >> > "byte compile") from the script at upload time. >> >> Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" >> tool that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an >> upload a script) and report problems that the admin can take action on. > > I don't think that's realistic -- some extensions can be implemented > entirely by the interpreter, with no need for any other part of the mail > system to get involved. So if the interpreter (a shared library, let's > say) is upgraded, there's no good way to inform the mail system what > changed and to run a lint process. I think you're misinterpreting Cyrus's point. The idea is not that the mail system somehow automagically looks for problems and starts notifying people about them. The idea is that there is a tool the admin can run to look for problems in a script. Depending on the implementation model, this might come with the interpreter or with the mail server. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFj40K090866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LFj4WI090865; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFj3c0090857 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cyrus@daboo.name) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45B910F8D9C; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:45:03 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvrDDEIwgajt; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id D522510F8D95; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:45:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:44:59 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades Message-ID: <DBD5248E7F95860352D5E4D4@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=942 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi Aaron, --On January 21, 2009 7:37:46 AM -0800 Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> wrote: >> Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" >> tool that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an >> upload a script) and report problems that the admin can take action on. > > I don't think that's realistic -- some extensions can be implemented > entirely by the interpreter, with no need for any other part of the mail > system to get involved. So if the interpreter (a shared library, let's > say) is upgraded, there's no good way to inform the mail system what > changed and to run a lint process. Well the system administrator better read the release notes and those better say that the interpreter was changed significantly and that all existing scripts should be checked. An admin blindly doing upgrades without checking release notes/instructions is asking for trouble... -- Cyrus Daboo Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFbq3B090486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:37:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LFbq4o090485; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:37:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LFbeML090462 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:37:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from [172.16.1.33] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B002936; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:40:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades From: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> To: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> Cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:37:46 -0800 Message-Id: <1232552267.11360.37.camel@turtle> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 09:57 -0500, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Hi Kjetil, > > --On January 21, 2009 2:37:50 PM +0100 Kjetil Torgrim Homme > <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> wrote: > > >> I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. > > > > good point. one solution is to remove dead code (e.g, like Cyrus' "byte > > compile") from the script at upload time. > > Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" tool > that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an upload a > script) and report problems that the admin can take action on. I don't think that's realistic -- some extensions can be implemented entirely by the interpreter, with no need for any other part of the mail system to get involved. So if the interpreter (a shared library, let's say) is upgraded, there's no good way to inform the mail system what changed and to run a lint process. Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LF0R9U087674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:00:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LF0R4p087673; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:00:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LF0Qva087667 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:00:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8CE4AC4B; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:00:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1232550025-52018-1/6/37 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:00:25 +0100 Message-Id: <jpwjEjlAu8TfroDE3vqt1w.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:00:50 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Cyrus Daboo writes: > Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" > tool that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an > upload a script) and report problems that the admin can take action > on. Personally I like that better. Or at least so the admin will know what's broken (ie. that it's not the upgraded server). Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LEwFrs087501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:58:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LEwE2G087500; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:58:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LEw3A8087488 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:58:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cyrus@daboo.name) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B91710F89C1; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:58:03 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A3QZ8GublDyd; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6FC10F89BA; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:58:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:57:59 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades Message-ID: <F1AA223EBB69CCF718B55486@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=528 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi Kjetil, --On January 21, 2009 2:37:50 PM +0100 Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. > > good point. one solution is to remove dead code (e.g, like Cyrus' "byte > compile") from the script at upload time. Or when you upgrade a server, the server ought to have a "sieve lint" tool that can scan all existing scripts (as would happen during an upload a script) and report problems that the admin can take action on. -- Cyrus Daboo Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LDc5sh081703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:38:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LDc5S4081702; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:38:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out2.uio.no (mail-out2.uio.no [129.240.10.58]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LDbrMZ081690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:38:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx4.uio.no ([129.240.10.45]) by mail-out2.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>) id 1LPdHE-0003nP-Az; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:37:52 +0100 Received: from feh.linpro.no ([87.238.42.45]) by mail-mx4.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) user kjetilho (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>) id 1LPdHD-0007F2-UD; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:37:52 +0100 Subject: Re: ihave and server upgrades From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> References: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:37:50 +0100 Message-Id: <1232545070.1604.135.camel@feh.linpro.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 (2.22.3.1-1.fc9) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: E23C428527592861F0CAE6B44BBBADF0325529A4 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 87.238.42.45 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 200 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 1 total 152 max/h 3 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 13:54 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > I implemented ihave. It was easy. I ran into a strange point, though. > > require "ihave"; > if ihave "foo" { > foo :dwimfactor 4; > } > > There are three cases. > > 1. Server supports foo at upload. Upload results in a managesieve error > such as "NO Maximum DWIM factor is 3". Fine. > > 2. Server doesn't support foo, period. Upload succeeds, execution > succeeds. Fine. > > 3. Server doesn't support foo at upload, but is later upgraded to a new > version which supports foo. Now the script fails when run. Not so fine. > It riles me that one thing can break because another is upgraded. > > I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. good point. one solution is to remove dead code (e.g, like Cyrus' "byte compile") from the script at upload time. -- regards, Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LCsfuk079502 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:54:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0LCsffS079501; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:54:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0LCsS3K079487 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:54:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DCA34AC44; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:54:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1232542467-52018-1/6/32 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:54:27 +0100 Message-Id: <3epm48fYykYMumGCDySmVQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:54:52 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: ihave and server upgrades Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> I implemented ihave. It was easy. I ran into a strange point, though. require "ihave"; if ihave "foo" { foo :dwimfactor 4; } There are three cases. 1. Server supports foo at upload. Upload results in a managesieve error such as "NO Maximum DWIM factor is 3". Fine. 2. Server doesn't support foo, period. Upload succeeds, execution succeeds. Fine. 3. Server doesn't support foo at upload, but is later upgraded to a new version which supports foo. Now the script fails when run. Not so fine. It riles me that one thing can break because another is upgraded. I don't suppose there's anything to do about it, but it still riles me. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0KFS1Fe021757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:28:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0KFS1H9021756; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:28:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0KFS0bU021749 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:28:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wwwrun@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id BC3C83A69F9; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:28:15 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org> Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, sieve mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>, sieve chair <sieve-chairs@tools.ietf.org> Subject: Protocol Action: 'A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <20090120152815.BC3C83A69F9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:28:15 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> The IESG has approved the following document: - 'A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts ' <draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt> as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Lisa Dusseault and Chris Newman. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt Technical Summary Sieve scripts allow users to filter incoming email. Message stores are commonly sealed servers so users cannot log into them, yet users must be able to update their scripts on them. This document describes a protocol "ManageSieve" for securely managing Sieve scripts on a remote server. This protocol allows a user to have multiple scripts, and also alerts a user to syntactically flawed scripts. Working Group Summary There was a discussion on the mailing list about use of synchronizing literals in the protocol. An earlier version incorrectly documented existing practice and at the same time was inconsistent with IMAP LITERAL+ extension. So there was a concern that some existing implementation might implement this incorrectly. However the author is not aware of any such implementation. More recently, there has been discussion of the overall command structure, mandatory-to-implement security mechanisms, and of some specific details in the sieve URL format. Consensus appears to have been reached on all of these issues. Document Quality There are multiple server and client implementations of the ManageSieve protocol. The following is an incomplete list of servers implementing ManageSieve: CMU, Dbmail, Dovecot, Isode, ArchiveOpteryx, pysieved (Python Managesieve Server), Citadel. The following clients are known to implement ManageSieve: Mulberry, Phil Pennock's sieve-connect, Polymer, Ruby/ManageSieve, Net-ManageSieve (perl), SIEVE plugin for Thunderbird, KMail, gsieve, Emacs-based ManageSieve implementation. Note that many if not most of these implementtations were written according to earlier versions of the specification and may require updates to be compliant with the current version. Personnel Ned Freed is the Document Shepherd. Lisa Dusseault reviewed this for the IESG. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0KFQqhs021698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:26:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0KFQqbZ021697; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:26:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0KFQqTj021691 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:26:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wwwrun@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 89E6328C1F8; Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org> Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, sieve mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>, sieve chair <sieve-chairs@tools.ietf.org> Subject: Protocol Action: 'Sieve Email Filtering: Ihave Extension' to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <20090120152641.89E6328C1F8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:26:41 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Sieve Email Filtering: Ihave Extension ' <draft-freed-sieve-ihave-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Lisa Dusseault and Chris Newman. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-ihave-04.txt Technical Summary This document describes the "ihave" extension to the Sieve email filtering language. The "ihave" extension provides a means to write scripts that can take advantage of optional Sieve features but can still run when those optional features are not available. The extension also defines a new error control command intended to be used to report situations where no combination of available extensions satisfies the needs of the script. Working Group Summary There were some discussions about whether the ihave test should only enable an extension for the if block it is used in, or whether it should enable the extension till the end of the script. The latter was chosen due to perceived ease of implementability and this represents rough consensus of the WG. Document Quality There is at least 1 server implementations of this document. At least 1 more server vendor is implementing it and at least a 3 more are interested in implementing it. At least 4 people have reviewed the document. Majority of posted comments were addressed in the latest revision. Personnel Alexey Melnikov is the Document Shepherd. Lisa Dusseault is the Sponsoring AD. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0HJTm8k098869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:29:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0HJTmMD098868; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:29:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0HJTlEx098860 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:29:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 672683A694D; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:30:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090117193001.672683A694D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:30:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts Author(s) : A. Melnikov, T. Martin Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt Pages : 52 Date : 2009-01-17 Sieve scripts allow users to filter incoming email. Message stores are commonly sealed servers so users cannot log into them, yet users must be able to update their scripts on them. This document describes a protocol "ManageSieve" for securely managing Sieve scripts on a remote server. This protocol allows a user to have multiple scripts, and also alerts a user to syntactically flawed scripts. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-09.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-17112040.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G9IATj007205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:18:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G9IACh007204; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:18:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G9HxAE007193 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:18:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [92.40.144.84] (92.40.144.84.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.144.84]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SXBQxQBwvnF=@rufus.isode.com>; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:17:58 +0000 Message-ID: <497050B7.4020508@isode.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:17:43 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Next Sieve drafts to work on References: <twig.1232063102.23100@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> In-Reply-To: <twig.1232063102.23100@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Aaron Stone wrote: >On Thu, Jan 15, 2009, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> said: > > >>Folks, >>I've just checked our milestones and found there: >> >>Feb 2009 WGLC RegEx >>Mar 2009 WGLC Include/multi-script >> >>We don't have drafts for either item yet. I think Ned is already doing >>lots of work in this WG, so chairs would appreciate if somebody can step >>up to the plate and volunteer to edit one of these documents. We already >>have 1 volunteer for include/multiscript, but, speaking personally, I >>would prefer to have 2 people on each document. Any takers? >> >> >If the one volunteer wasn't already me, I volunteer me :-) > > That was you. Any other takers? >Should new revisions of the documents be posted from the expired >revisions? > > That would be fine with me. We have 2 expired drafts to choose from. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G7sQun002105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:54:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G7sQtJ002104; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:54:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G7sDdf002090 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:54:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CA24AC6C; Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:54:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1232092452-96043-1/6/5 (4 recipients); Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:54:12 +0100 Message-Id: <P4WCponUDSX8wrcr6VeDqA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:54:28 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4AQTPILMS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <lLhXm2d90PH6pOJE0Q6t2Q.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4C4OEK0UG00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N4C4OEK0UG00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: > Really, I think this is just lack of familiarity with how things play out in > the XML world more than anything. I am indeed not familiar with the XML world. > Everywhere you look in XML-based languages you'll find <comment>, > <annotation>, and similar constructs. Fine then. When in Rome, etc. Other stuff later; I'm squeezed now. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G3n6gY091102 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:49:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G3n6eZ091101; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:49:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G3mtnP091077 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:49:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4C4OFVL4000TZCT@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4A8TPPXSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:48:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:54:40 +0100" <lLhXm2d90PH6pOJE0Q6t2Q.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Message-id: <01N4C4OEK0UG00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4AQTPILMS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <lLhXm2d90PH6pOJE0Q6t2Q.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Ned Freed writes: > >> Ned Freed writes: > >> > The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The > >> > stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock > >> > material into structured comments. This can easily be > >> > extended/changed to cover the handling of material in other > >> > namespaces. But do we want to formalize the structured comment > >> > convention? > >> > >> My desire for structured comments is vanishingly small. My two cents. > > > > I don't think we have a choice. The problem is the XML representation > > is richer and since it isn't intended as a storage format there has > > to be a way to map the additional information to something in regular > > sieve. Unless we want to do something along the lines of the meta > > extension Kjetil proposed - which I don't think we want to do, pretty > > much the only place for it is in comments. > I didn't reply... but at least I would have preferred such a meta thingy > at 302 time. Now it may be too late. If it was in the base specificaiton, maybe. But having to support a brand new Sieve extension in order to handle preservation of XML content while round tripping scripts sounds like a bad idea to me. > > I apologize for not being clearer here - I made this sound like it's a > > processor quality thing, which it isn't. > You were clear enough for me at least. > > The problem is more fundamental: In XML comments are not considered to > > be part of the infoset. This means conforming XML processors are > > explicitly allowed to drop them. Which in turn means you cannot count > > on them being available for processing. > Sure. The question is whether that's a problem. > If you write a script in xmlsieve, convert it and then convert it back, > then any comments you added may have been deleted. AFAICT this is not a > problem. Well, I don't know about you, but if I have a complex script that I have carefully commented, and when I use a new GUI editor on it that transforms it to XML and back again and loses the comments in the process, I'm not going to be a happy camper. Sure, there are lots of cases where it doesn't matter and comments can be dropped, assuming there are any there in the first place. But there are going to be cases where comments need to be preserved and any mapping needs to support that. Really, I think this is just lack of familiarity with how things play out in the XML world more than anything. Everywhere you look in XML-based languages you'll find <comment>, <annotation>, and similar constructs. For better or worse, XML just doesn't worry too much about this stuff. > If you write it in plain old sieve, convert it and then convert it back, > then comments are preserved due to <comment>. AFAICT this is neat, but > it's not clear to me that it's necessary. (Btw. Now that I think about > it. Is whitespace preserved in arguments?) Whitespace in string constants darned well better be preserved. (And come to think of it, I need to put in something about how to map text: constructs.) Whitespace in comments can also be preserved for the most part - there may be some edges where it's a bit difficult. But whitespace between lexical tokens in either representation isn't going to be preserved. The solution I adopted in the sample stylesheet was to output stuff using a simple indentation scheme. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G0imtE081652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:44:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G0imDP081651; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:44:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G0ilsP081645 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:44:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D5B253A691B; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-freed-sieve-notary-04.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090116004501.D5B253A691B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:45:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Delivery Status Notifications Extension Author(s) : N. Freed Filename : draft-freed-sieve-notary-04.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2009-01-15 This document describes the "envelope-dsn" and "redirect-dsn" extensions to the Sieve email filtering language. The "envelope-dsn" extension provides access to additional envelope information provided by the delivery status notification extension to SMTP defined in RFC 3461. The "redirect-dsn" extension extends Sieve's redirect action to provide control over delivery status notification parameters. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-notary-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-freed-sieve-notary-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-15163803.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G0RWxf081034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:27:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0G0RWjs081033; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:27:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0G0RLJ5081014 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:27:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4BXMJAH2800U0TB@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4A8TPPXSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:27:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:15:35 +0000" <twig.1232057735.74397@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N4BXMH6W3E00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20090115183001.9EBC928C27C@core3.amsl.com> <twig.1232057735.74397@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Hi Ned, a really brief review below... Thanks for taking the time to do it. > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org said: > > > > Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Delivery Status Notifications Extension > > Author(s) : N. Freed > > Filename : draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt > > Pages : 8 > > Date : 2009-01-15 > > > > This document describes the "envelope-dsn" and "redirect-dsn" > > extensions to the Sieve email filtering language. The "envelope-dsn" > > extension provides access to additional envelope information provided > > by the delivery status notification extension to SMTP defined in RFC > > 3461. The "redirect-dsn" extension extends Sieve's redirect action > > to provide control over delivery status notification parameters. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt > > > In Section 4.0: > The "relational" extension [RFC5231] adds a match type called > ":count". The count of an envelope test of with an envelope-part of > ^^^^ > Leftover word "of". Fixed. > In Section 4.1 I do not understand the examples :-( Not sure what to say to that ... I tried some wordsmithing in hopes of making things clearer, but really, I don't think these are all that complex or obscure as long as you understand the DSN extension, which seems like a prerequisite here. > In Section 5.0: > Usage: redirect [NOTIFY] [RET] <address: string> > It seems awkward to me to mix the formal EBNF with the more casual usage > description. This would be better IMHO: > Usage: redirect [:notify "value"] [:ret "FULL"|"HDRS"] > <address: string> > (Unless other extensions are already doing inline EBNF, in which case > consistency says keep it that way, but I personally don't prefer it.) I'm not sure what the state of play is but this has already confused at least one reader I know of. So I'm going to try it your way. > Also Section 5.0: > These parameters are only available when the delivery status > notification (DSN) ESMTP extension is available; they are simply > ignored and MUST NOT cause an error if the DSN extension is > unavailable. > Easier to understand like this: > These parameters are only available when the delivery status > notification (DSN) ESMTP extension is available. When the DSN > extension is not available, the parameters MUST be ignored and > MUST NOT cause an error. Changed. > Section 5.1: > One possible use of :notify on redirect is to ccmbine the copy > ^^^ > Misspell of "combine". Fixed. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FNguFl078981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:42:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FNgu9O078980; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:42:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FNgtRO078974 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:42:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us (unknown [10.10.10.34]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with SMTP id 0734F1F8F; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:45:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:45:02 -0000 To: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Re: Next Sieve drafts to work on From: "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.cx> X-Mailer: TWIG 2.8.3 Message-ID: <twig.1232063102.23100@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> In-Reply-To: <496FBE5E.7040707@isode.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> said: > > Folks, > I've just checked our milestones and found there: > > Feb 2009 WGLC RegEx > Mar 2009 WGLC Include/multi-script > > We don't have drafts for either item yet. I think Ned is already doing > lots of work in this WG, so chairs would appreciate if somebody can step > up to the plate and volunteer to edit one of these documents. We already > have 1 volunteer for include/multiscript, but, speaking personally, I > would prefer to have 2 people on each document. Any takers? > If the one volunteer wasn't already me, I volunteer me :-) Should new revisions of the documents be posted from the expired revisions? Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMsLLn077335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FMsLZD077334; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMsKJQ077328 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:54:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [92.40.202.159] (92.40.202.159.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.202.159]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SW--mABwvnm5@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:54:18 +0000 Message-ID: <496FBE5E.7040707@isode.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:53:18 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Next Sieve drafts to work on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Folks, I've just checked our milestones and found there: Feb 2009 WGLC RegEx Mar 2009 WGLC Include/multi-script We don't have drafts for either item yet. I think Ned is already doing lots of work in this WG, so chairs would appreciate if somebody can step up to the plate and volunteer to edit one of these documents. We already have 1 volunteer for include/multiscript, but, speaking personally, I would prefer to have 2 people on each document. Any takers? Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMiEZS077013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:44:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FMiEg7077012; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:44:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMi32j076999 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:44:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [92.40.202.159] (92.40.202.159.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.202.159]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SW-8LwBwvpaK@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: <496FBBF7.1050504@isode.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:43:03 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: WGLC on draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi folk, With my co-chair hat on: This message officially starts the Sieve Working Group Last Call for the following document: Sieve Email Filtering: Sieves and display directives in XML <http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-in-xml-02.txt> The Working Group Last Call for this document starts on January 15th and will end on January 30th. Please send any comments to the Sieve mailing list or to the document authors. If you chose to do the latter, please CC both Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> and Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>. Reviews that found no issues are also welcomed, so if you review the document and find it acceptable, please let the mailing list/authors+chairs know as well. Also, in order to simplify tracking of various issues, please clearly mark each issue in the message (ideally in the subject header field, sending 1 issue per email message). Also, I would strongly encourage to provide specific suggestions for solving issues you've raised (or at least show an example of how your issue can be addressed). Thank you, Alexey, Sieve WG co-chairs Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMDe63075929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:13:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FMDeoH075928; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:13:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FMDTas075921 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:13:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us (unknown [10.10.10.34]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with SMTP id BA3232936; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:15:35 -0000 To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt From: "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.cx> X-Mailer: TWIG 2.8.3 Message-ID: <twig.1232057735.74397@serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us> In-Reply-To: <20090115183001.9EBC928C27C@core3.amsl.com> Cc: <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi Ned, a really brief review below... On Thu, Jan 15, 2009, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org said: > > Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Delivery Status Notifications Extension > Author(s) : N. Freed > Filename : draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2009-01-15 > > This document describes the "envelope-dsn" and "redirect-dsn" > extensions to the Sieve email filtering language. The "envelope-dsn" > extension provides access to additional envelope information provided > by the delivery status notification extension to SMTP defined in RFC > 3461. The "redirect-dsn" extension extends Sieve's redirect action > to provide control over delivery status notification parameters. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt > In Section 4.0: The "relational" extension [RFC5231] adds a match type called ":count". The count of an envelope test of with an envelope-part of ^^^^ Leftover word "of". In Section 4.1 I do not understand the examples :-( In Section 5.0: Usage: redirect [NOTIFY] [RET] <address: string> It seems awkward to me to mix the formal EBNF with the more casual usage description. This would be better IMHO: Usage: redirect [:notify "value"] [:ret "FULL"|"HDRS"] <address: string> (Unless other extensions are already doing inline EBNF, in which case consistency says keep it that way, but I personally don't prefer it.) Also Section 5.0: These parameters are only available when the delivery status notification (DSN) ESMTP extension is available; they are simply ignored and MUST NOT cause an error if the DSN extension is unavailable. Easier to understand like this: These parameters are only available when the delivery status notification (DSN) ESMTP extension is available. When the DSN extension is not available, the parameters MUST be ignored and MUST NOT cause an error. Section 5.1: One possible use of :notify on redirect is to ccmbine the copy ^^^ Misspell of "combine". Cheers! Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FITxW7067311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:29:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FITxTP067310; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:29:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FITmtQ067278 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:29:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 9EBC928C27C; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:30:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090115183001.9EBC928C27C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:30:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : Sieve Email Filtering: Delivery Status Notifications Extension Author(s) : N. Freed Filename : draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2009-01-15 This document describes the "envelope-dsn" and "redirect-dsn" extensions to the Sieve email filtering language. The "envelope-dsn" extension provides access to additional envelope information provided by the delivery status notification extension to SMTP defined in RFC 3461. The "redirect-dsn" extension extends Sieve's redirect action to provide control over delivery status notification parameters. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-freed-sieve-notary-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-15102041.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FHim7V063265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:44:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FHim7V063264; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:44:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FHillS063258 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:44:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D617F28C245; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-08.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090115174501.D617F28C245@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:45:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts Author(s) : A. Melnikov, T. Martin Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-08.txt Pages : 51 Date : 2009-01-15 Sieve scripts allow users to filter incoming email. Message stores are commonly sealed servers so users cannot log into them, yet users must be able to update their scripts on them. This document describes a protocol "ManageSieve" for securely managing Sieve scripts on a remote server. This protocol allows a user to have multiple scripts, and also alerts a user to syntactically flawed scripts. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-08.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-15093833.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FGEnU4058430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0FGEn4E058429; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0FGEm1J058423 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:14:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D377728C14B; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:15:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-07.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090115161502.D377728C14B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:15:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts Author(s) : A. Melnikov, T. Martin Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-07.txt Pages : 51 Date : 2009-01-15 Sieve scripts allow users to filter incoming email. Message stores are commonly sealed servers so users cannot log into them, yet users must be able to update their scripts on them. This document describes a protocol "ManageSieve" for securely managing Sieve scripts on a remote server. This protocol allows a user to have multiple scripts, and also alerts a user to syntactically flawed scripts. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-07.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-15080046.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0F8sfij032503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:54:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0F8sfY2032502; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:54:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0F8sSHF032490 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:54:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016634AC46; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:54:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1232009666-21270-1/6/28 (4 recipients); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:54:26 +0100 Message-Id: <lLhXm2d90PH6pOJE0Q6t2Q.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:54:40 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N4AQTPILMS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N4AQTPILMS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: >> Ned Freed writes: >> > The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The >> > stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock >> > material into structured comments. This can easily be >> > extended/changed to cover the handling of material in other >> > namespaces. But do we want to formalize the structured comment >> > convention? >> >> My desire for structured comments is vanishingly small. My two cents. > > I don't think we have a choice. The problem is the XML representation > is richer and since it isn't intended as a storage format there has > to be a way to map the additional information to something in regular > sieve. Unless we want to do something along the lines of the meta > extension Kjetil proposed - which I don't think we want to do, pretty > much the only place for it is in comments. I didn't reply... but at least I would have preferred such a meta thingy at 302 time. Now it may be too late. > I apologize for not being clearer here - I made this sound like it's a > processor quality thing, which it isn't. You were clear enough for me at least. > The problem is more fundamental: In XML comments are not considered to > be part of the infoset. This means conforming XML processors are > explicitly allowed to drop them. Which in turn means you cannot count > on them being available for processing. Sure. The question is whether that's a problem. If you write a script in xmlsieve, convert it and then convert it back, then any comments you added may have been deleted. AFAICT this is not a problem. If you write it in plain old sieve, convert it and then convert it back, then comments are preserved due to <comment>. AFAICT this is neat, but it's not clear to me that it's necessary. (Btw. Now that I think about it. Is whitespace preserved in arguments?) >> I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. So many of these things are just >> better than some even worse alternative. > > Yeah, that's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. Yes. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0F41qkG019369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:01:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0F41q8M019368; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:01:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0F41cFL019358 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:01:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4AQTSELA800VE1B@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4A8TPPXSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:01:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:23:12 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:25:09 +0100" <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Message-id: <01N4AQTPILMS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Ned Freed writes: > > The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The > > stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock > > material into structured comments. This can easily be > > extended/changed to cover the handling of material in other > > namespaces. But do we want to formalize the structured comment > > convention? > My desire for structured comments is vanishingly small. My two cents. I don't think we have a choice. The problem is the XML representation is richer and since it isn't intended as a storage format there has to be a way to map the additional information to something in regular sieve. Unless we want to do something along the lines of the meta extension Kjetil proposed - which I don't think we want to do, pretty much the only place for it is in comments. > > Finally, there's the issue of how to handle other comments, which > > we've discussed in the past but may be worth revisiting now. > > Currently regular Sieve comments are mapped to <comment></comment> > > blocks rather than to proper XML comments. The reason for this is > > that not all XML processors provide access to stuff inside of <!-- > > foo --> constructs, so comments may get lost when converting from > > Sieve-in-XML back to regular Sieve. Do we want to continue to do > > things this way? > It's a decent reason at least, but it doesn't make me very happy. I apologize for not being clearer here - I made this sound like it's a processor quality thing, which it isn't. The problem is more fundamental: In XML comments are not considered to be part of the infoset. This means conforming XML processors are explicitly allowed to drop them. Which in turn means you cannot count on them being available for processing. > > In any case, here's a concrete proposal for how to move forward: > > > > (1) Add the necessary stuff to allow use of XML in other namespaces > > whereever displaydata is currently allowed. This has been done in the new revision of the draft. > > (2) Drop displaydata, making the use of namespaces required if you want > > to embed other stuff inside of a Sieve-in-XML. This has not. I don;t think we have consensus on this yet, and it is much easier to remove something than to put it back in once it is gone. > > (3) Add a section defining the structured comment convention for > > representing this other stuff in regular Sieve format. Done. > > (4) Change displayblock to just block, making it clear it can be used for > > other sorts of groupings. Not done yet, as it kinda depends on the removal of displaydata to make sense. > > (5) Leave the current mapping of unstructured Sieve comments to > > <comment></comment> blocks alone. This was actually inconsistent in places and required some changes. > OK. > I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. So many of these things are just better > than some even worse alternative. Yeah, that's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. > <comment> exists so that even bad XML processors must preserve comments > in a round-trip conversion, which seems weak justification. Not so weak > that I actively disagree, but weak enough to make me unhappy. Mostly agreed, except that such processors are in fact fully compliant and therefore not considered "bad", at least in any sense that matters. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0ENN5bU007550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:23:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0ENN5Vb007549; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:23:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0ENMsCT007541 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:23:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4AH3873E800R2AR@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N4A8TPPXSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:22:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:05:14 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:47:47 -0800" <1231732067.16458.214.camel@turtle> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N4AH354CJO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231732067.16458.214.camel@turtle> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> First of all, I've been holding off on responding to this thread because I wanted to get a new version pushed out. I have now done so. The new version contains a fair number of changes, including: (1) Definition of a URN for our namespace and registration of said URN with IANA. (2) Allow material from other namespaces in Sieve XML. (3) Specify the structured comment convention (this was implicit in the stylesheet example but needed to become explicit). (4) Addition of a compact Relax NG grammar. (5) Made the handling of comments consistent. (5) Cleaned up a number of bugs in the schema and stylesheet. And now back to the discussion. > Let's try to keep this conversation on the path of concrete examples. I agree and will try to do so. > I had no idea what this entire thread was about until Robert gave a > specific XML snippet to illustrate what he wanted to do, and you gave a > different one in response to illustrate the document state. > My current understanding from trying to follow this thread is that this > snippet (from Robert) is not valid according to the document: > <control name="if"> > <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> > <test name="header"> > <tag>is</tag> > <str>Sender</str> > <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> > </test> > <action name="fileinto"> > <str>filter</str> > </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> > </control> This is now valid according to both schema in the document. > This is syntactically valid XML, but semantically the element from the > 'mix' namespace isn't going to make sense to a naive Sieve-XML parser. > By some magic of XML specification buzzwords, I gather that the above > snippet can be declared valid or invalid by the schema definition. Yes. As I explained previously, a schema gets to control whether or not elements in other namespaces are allowed, and where. I have allowed them in most of so-called "complex" elements, i.e., elements that in turn contain other elements. > How are mixed-namespace documents like this handled by XML parsers / > editors / UIs / etc? Is it reasonable to disallow a mixed namespace like > this? That reallly depends on the application. Keep in mind that this is a building block, not a finished protocol or service. Even asssuming every application out there ends up embedding elements from other namespaces, in a typical setup you're going to use additional schemata to constrain those elements in various ways. This is entirely reasonable - XML fully support the idea of having multiple schemata in play for different namespaces. > Is there a reason not to allow such mixing? IMO no. > What if someone wants to use the Sieve-XML schema within a larger > document? For example: > <foomail:config> > <foomail:service service="smtp"> > <foomail:port>25</foomail:port> > <foomail:listen>127.0.0.1</foomail:listen> > </foomail:service> > <foomail:user id="1"> > <foomail:name>Username</foomail:name> > <foomail:sieves> > <foomail:sieve> > <foomail:name>On vacation</foomail:name> > <foomail:script> > <sieve:action name="vacation"> > <sieve:str>I'm away on vacation.</sieve:str> > </sieve:action> > </foomail:script> > </foomail:sieve> > </foomail:sieves> > </foomail:user> > </foomail:config> This is also fine, modulo a couple of details - you're missing the necessary xmlns attributes to identify the namespaces and the <sieve:sieve> wrapper around the entire script. Fixing these, you'd end up with: <foomail:config xmlns:foomail="http://exammple.com/foomail" xmlns:sieve="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:sieve"> <foomail:service service="smtp"> <foomail:port>25</foomail:port> <foomail:listen>127.0.0.1</foomail:listen> </foomail:service> <foomail:user id="1"> <foomail:name>Username</foomail:name> <foomail:sieves> <foomail:sieve> <foomail:name>On vacation</foomail:name> <sieve:sieve> <sieve:control name="require"> <sieve:str>vacation</sieve:str> </sieve:control> <sieve:action name="vacation"> <sieve:str>I'm away on vacation.</sieve:str> </sieve:action> </sieve:sieve> </foomail:sieve> </foomail:sieves> </foomail:user> </foomail:config> Of course this is just one possible variant out of many - you could use different prefixes, or use no prefix for one of the two namespaces, you could have an additional set of wrapper elemenets or even switch some foomail elements to attributes and use fewer, etc. etc. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EIfTOL092597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:41:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0EIfTTV092596; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:41:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EIfIQb092575 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:41:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E054AC46; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:41:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231958476-21270-1/6/24 (5 recipients); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:41:16 +0100 Message-Id: <LBO2HrQHchxFuQqfNZoevQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:41:29 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <f470f68e0901140846o4f94d3a4s32b5c0f467d7cb45@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901140846o4f94d3a4s32b5c0f467d7cb45@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Robert Burrell Donkin writes: > if a parser is generally expected to map the data block to sieve > comments, [...] Well, is it? That's the big question, isn't it? Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EGkkIS083108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:46:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0EGkkN6083107; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:46:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.184]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EGkYvV083079 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:46:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so353981fkq.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:46:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=uMHJ6nhTMjQtU00tGtgpB7mgg8pZ7oiHUOWOObfburs=; b=vTR81JA5lsp9ObaDdSo2pUbQqHph9t4c9nbJFAxcBtdqTDFiEHbDDTTmU8W2uRMMiW 0PNDxgvLmanBUn6YM8b4fBfuSrQQAYSlOcrSaJ7CL4KUxQU+mvMRXkAH+UnbymjCTOE2 wB6WccxAwEOnB9eHQ73GKznSTlH7oJVpLesrw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=aomYB7bmMHrOIJMiqtQWPWnKNBJrKezKv+cdvkWZPF8/ASAOYdtqN3S/Xf6OIpF3sj YtnjZp/tt1Oys9LISexBDyOoSkXAmGCBjgKz0u3Gtx4i7i+H9Sk3IRU4KEQ/zi/QEBQi yiSMx7aZ8KQyT0SMoBieqSeZ4gUtvELIgyFPM= Received: by 10.181.220.19 with SMTP id x19mr80246bkq.136.1231951593700; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:46:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901140846o4f94d3a4s32b5c0f467d7cb45@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:46:33 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.cx> In-Reply-To: <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > > Ned Freed writes: >> >> The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The >> stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock material >> into structured comments. This can easily be extended/changed to cover the >> handling of material in other namespaces. But do we want to formalize the >> structured comment convention? > > My desire for structured comments is vanishingly small. My two cents. > >> Finally, there's the issue of how to handle other comments, which we've >> discussed in the past but may be worth revisiting now. Currently regular >> Sieve comments are mapped to <comment></comment> blocks rather than to >> proper XML comments. The reason for this is that not all XML processors >> provide access to stuff inside of <!-- foo --> constructs, so comments may >> get lost when converting from Sieve-in-XML back to regular Sieve. Do we want >> to continue to do things this way? > > It's a decent reason at least, but it doesn't make me very happy. modelling sieve comments as elements (as opposed to XML comments) is a very natural and obvious way to map these domains and separates the concerns of commenting on the XML serialization from comments in the sieve script. >> In any case, here's a concrete proposal for how to move forward: >> >> (1) Add the necessary stuff to allow use of XML in other namespaces >> whereever displaydata is currently allowed. >> >> (2) Drop displaydata, making the use of namespaces required if you want >> to embed other stuff inside of a Sieve-in-XML. >> >> (3) Add a section defining the structured comment convention for >> representing this other stuff in regular Sieve format. >> >> (4) Change displayblock to just block, making it clear it can be used for >> other sorts of groupings. >> >> (5) Leave the current mapping of unstructured Sieve comments to >> <comment></comment> blocks alone. > > OK. > > I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. So many of these things are just better than > some even worse alternative. > > <comment> exists so that even bad XML processors must preserve comments in a > round-trip conversion, which seems weak justification. Not so weak that I > actively disagree, but weak enough to make me unhappy. XML comments tend to be difficult to preserve when transforming documents and so on. XML binders are unlikely to support semantic content in comments, so it's not just bad XML processors which are going to have problems. using an element to model the comment part of the grammar is very natural and makes the relationship between the XML structure and the sieve structure clear and obvious. if a parser is generally expected to map the data block to sieve comments, replacing both separate block structures with support for structure comments would not only make this clear and obvious but would mean that the XML structure would have a simple and obvious isomorphism to the Sieve structure. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EGVB9h081180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:31:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0EGVB11081179; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:31:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.185]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0EGUxbd081147 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:31:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so349180fkq.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:30:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=+AJm8eQSTFqBEzRt/2+Jj50TLy5UHUDfK71+H4GJ+4A=; b=Z6CpxHLO5bXulivgcVjlVpYwVUXSsLyPTTal4nr1r3xR6FO569E5dFuA5enaFYWGXd QfyZMqN4ZMgHq+j3dbn4aqkhPzT0f2/v1HJru/6+HqbtzktmesY8eeuNx5yaTL8akV+h GDiiwjxp3A3qZ2cmrjspfa5ZmHbXAP78IiFqI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=hUOb79JQyKf8Ak7MJI4kERa3TzqeG1VBXNLVVf/Tyq+i3GI10HTa93KomMnmTgBHkm IW265yCHB9JxOta5p4APXzvMEECElhM97EtiBgHl3VsmdBIBrfk9mRnSgEWBEHTZaiKq FhTUppLLC1SOQDCfkhyZBGUFUBZe8C0K8A2o8= Received: by 10.181.37.6 with SMTP id p6mr70781bkj.197.1231950657706; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:30:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901140830u46bedac8nd517f5c404d1a878@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:30:57 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Subject: Re: How to get implementors involved (was Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status?) Cc: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <49537759.5020809@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <493E908E.70504@isode.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <01N332VSGLBC00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141424k40d5e528oc0ccc908288de442@mail.gmail.com> <01N33HK2005W00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812191054l6669929bq6b9d430f93fe4bd3@mail.gmail.com> <49537759.5020809@isode.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote: > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: >>>> >>>> IMO it is a method (but not the only one) of producing reliable >>>> relatively bug free software. i think this is a reasonable >>>> pre-requisite for good interoperability. a good suite should aim to >>>> reduce the numbers of poor implementations which claim compatibility >>>> rather than try to ensure that good implementations interoperate >>>> perfectly. >>>> >>> >>> I'm always cautious about extrapolating from limited data - and we >>> haven't seen >>> all that much use of scripts being moved from one implementation to >>> another. >>> But to the extent we have, the problems that have shown up have been >>> interop >>> issues. Unfortunately there are several Sieve implementations out there >>> that >>> have chosen to ignore the extensions we've defined and roll their own to >>> do >>> things the base specification does not cover. >>> >> >> is there any (lightweight) way for implementors to let this group know >> about the extensions they've rolled? (other than showing on this list) >> > > I think subscribing to the mailing list is a low enough bar, but if people > think that that is too heavyweight, then they may contact me directly. i did ask a few people a few months ago but they declined. my experiences in this group have not been positive enough for me to be to be able to offer them any encouragement to join. i have some private correspondence which i may be able to get permission to forward to you. > But note that such contacts are going to be purely informal in their nature > and have nothing to do with me be the Sieve WG chair. I just happen to know > authors of various Sieve extensions ;-) and also happen own sieve.info > domain. ok - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFoAOo099534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:50:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DFoA4P099533; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:50:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFnxne099514 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:50:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cyrus@daboo.name) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A3610B9F5A; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:49:58 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z7bqGsqaDWGa; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C0C10B9F53; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:49:55 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Message-ID: <FCE08BD7EFB1D0B8C8F92EEB@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <01N48MAB6P5Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> <01N48MAB6P5Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=715 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi, --On January 13, 2009 7:22:28 AM -0800 Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> The latest ManageSieve draft already does that ;-). > > Sorry, forgot that was in there. > > Given that support for SRV records is already required, old servers that > are listening on port 2000 can be made to work with a new client that > defaults to a different port simply by adding an appropriate SRV record. > And an old client that goes straight to port 2000 on the named server > isn't going to interoperate with a new SRV-dependent setup anyway. So I > see no compelling reason to continue to mess around with port 2000. Let's > just get a new port assigned, put it in there and be done with it. +1 -- Cyrus Daboo Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFXnK0098454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:33:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DFXnvY098453; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:33:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from excalibur.hozed.org (excalibur.hozed.org [209.234.73.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFXaNX098436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:33:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from hozer@hozed.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by excalibur.hozed.org with local; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:33:27 -0600 id 000055CA.496CB447.00006FCD Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:33:27 -0600 From: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Message-ID: <20090113153322.GH16813@excalibur.hozed.org> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 09:38:13AM -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > --On Tuesday, January 13, 2009 09:28:27 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen > <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > > >Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest > >getting a new port (x) and using these rules: > > > >Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on the > >right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out > >for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line > >starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP > >banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. > > Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we > standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve servers. > > -- Jeff I would second the DNS SRV record approach. It would be quite convenient to have a MUA that used DNS SRV records to find it's IMAP, SMTP-MSA, and Managesieve servers. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFTn2U098063 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:29:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DFTn56098062; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:29:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFTmSv098056 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:29:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N48MACZVA8007MPH@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N48LWD53FK00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:29:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:22:28 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:02:37 +0000" <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> Message-id: <01N48MAB6P5Y00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > > > >> --On Tuesday, January 13, 2009 09:28:27 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen > >> <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > > > >> > Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest > >> > getting a new port (x) and using these rules: > >> > > >> > Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on > >> > the > >> > right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out > >> > for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line > >> > starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP > >> > banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. > > > >> Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we > >> standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve servers. > > > > Excellent idea. I strongly support doing this. > The latest ManageSieve draft already does that ;-). Sorry, forgot that was in there. Given that support for SRV records is already required, old servers that are listening on port 2000 can be made to work with a new client that defaults to a different port simply by adding an appropriate SRV record. And an old client that goes straight to port 2000 on the named server isn't going to interoperate with a new SRV-dependent setup anyway. So I see no compelling reason to continue to mess around with port 2000. Let's just get a new port assigned, put it in there and be done with it. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFBlHM096882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:11:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DFBlpL096881; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:11:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.169]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DFBaRG096872 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:11:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so46087wfc.28 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=zhO6rYYe6/tEtlq0kCtB4kXXmpDbH8cRJQua69QnS8I=; b=soyyiPdGUfyzgr4x8Se1nXRQ7Jh/Vg4+IKimxUs+2xcFDEvMLp2hX/OMa7O6RuUANH 9l4AH0c8jJ8pFTYjG34oELxRSLudRb21o/dnAjKsJPh1YAsmQdz5UqdV2PxBBNLcndFw xRozY0Z7dwx8DnUdXN9hpArbUq9j9Cz+LdlTY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=B4ebtiAmD7WsrPuD7888G6IQ6DQ65K+PPoHk7ir7PJrqK+QNyAiPwzJJk1mtGRjCY1 G0QMQyJq79n7J+Ls1vrSD4wsumjrTP99IM+ysBt8cd2DsVaHQGCX0lkpNgtmScIm2B7y TGKhzjfej9JKW21AvIUQAbKIkqKmXAdxOOm/w= Received: by 10.143.2.19 with SMTP id e19mr12907649wfi.96.1231859496134; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.42.15 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:11:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29d3c4cb0901130711h3cba0da4l11bf4f0d35ab4321@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:11:36 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <wqapB8qDZsDWI1JRSaJ+pg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> <wqapB8qDZsDWI1JRSaJ+pg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0fd65642a78e165e Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: >> The latest ManageSieve draft already does that ;-). > > Did you use the text I suggested ages ago? I had misgivings later... I don't remember which version I've used. Please review the latest draft. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DF7Ips096600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:07:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DF7Ibp096597; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:07:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DF7FDv096590 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:07:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321F44AC46; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:07:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231859234-21270-1/6/12 (6 recipients); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:07:14 +0100 Message-Id: <wqapB8qDZsDWI1JRSaJ+pg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:07:28 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Cc: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Alexey Melnikov writes: > The latest ManageSieve draft already does that ;-). Did you use the text I suggested ages ago? I had misgivings later... Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DF2nS3096389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:02:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DF2ntn096388; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:02:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.156]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DF2cHd096368 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:02:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so19775ywr.4 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:02:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=g9ltuouPmEgZ63xBUieJIF1vqzMOx8uO0QHjZSMoLB0=; b=eV5b09BUl9Ob2reO1913knlagsRF/Ku3sCfBcUZ1EON+jtd1CVPQmj45fDaoTy3g// WnMxsy3IE/Bh+P+XCgBWVBofhuFOV8XzaBsRPlQoylccHfiNVpJ6W1TPpN9gkMI2dK43 wZmtWBJvcPCEqQPtFesRuiWoFa7P15CAmxTHQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=duv6l9Lf5eXE1fJyRlrf5WHbODSdoB0aocCkv30l5EExv1PHWAj7TavQ2zGxcrqINB SGFAYLH4oHa0n8GXBnXEV3vrcgheKvB+cxBuEyPUNuOqKpUWTPWt6IL5EaetuJW1wmiB cqKwbzmtxdo3qi+JiWG6y1777FNZoDemSh5BA= Received: by 10.142.191.5 with SMTP id o5mr4165025wff.244.1231858957612; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.42.15 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29d3c4cb0901130702m6185c110xf349368f076eea1e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:02:37 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Cc: "Jeffrey Hutzelman" <jhutz@cmu.edu>, "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2b423c3b39121494 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > >> --On Tuesday, January 13, 2009 09:28:27 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen >> <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > >> > Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest >> > getting a new port (x) and using these rules: >> > >> > Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on >> > the >> > right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out >> > for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line >> > starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP >> > banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. > >> Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we >> standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve servers. > > Excellent idea. I strongly support doing this. The latest ManageSieve draft already does that ;-). Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DF0Akm096187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DF0ABw096186; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DExxgv096129 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N48L8FW8RK00R682@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N48L2WT474000078@mauve.mrochek.com>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:59:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:38:13 -0500" <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, jhutz@cmu.edu Message-id: <01N48L8EWBMA000078@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > --On Tuesday, January 13, 2009 09:28:27 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen > <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > > Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest > > getting a new port (x) and using these rules: > > > > Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on the > > right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out > > for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line > > starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP > > banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. > Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we > standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve servers. Excellent idea. I strongly support doing this. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DEt8Q7095203 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:55:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DEt8ZU095202; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:55:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DEsvFN095171 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:55:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9474AC72; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:54:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231858496-21270-1/6/11 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:54:56 +0100 Message-Id: <J2+FlgMufCh++uZa/22BkQ.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:55:10 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Jeffrey Hutzelman writes: > Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we > standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve > servers. I thought so too, but I couldn't formulate a good and complete set of rules. That's why I haven't suggested that (for a couple of years). The best I could come up with is: 1. Get a port (x) from IANA. 2. Servers listen to port x by default, but must be configurable to use another port. 3. Clients do an SRV lookup for _managesieve._tcp.target and fall back to target port x if no SRV record is found. It's possible to make old clients work (except for the literal/literal+ problem) by pointing at port 2000 in the SRV record. But I'm not happy enough to really like this solution. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DEcZID094303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:38:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DEcZs6094302; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:38:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from chokecherry.srv.cs.cmu.edu (CHOKECHERRY.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.185.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DEcNNr094291 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:38:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from 68-246-211-13.pools.spcsdns.net (173-101-174-117.pools.spcsdns.net [173.101.174.117]) (authenticated bits=0) by chokecherry.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n0DEcDcN021051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:38:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:38:13 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org cc: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, jhutz@cmu.edu Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Message-ID: <F984A5C2B76DBB9FD6A25818@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.185.41 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --On Tuesday, January 13, 2009 09:28:27 AM +0100 Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest > getting a new port (x) and using these rules: > > Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on the > right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out > for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line > starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP > banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. Instead of standardizing a multi-port search procedure, I suggest we standardize the use of DNS SRV records to discover managesieve servers. -- Jeff Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DAr7Jl079428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:53:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0DAr7IM079427; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:53:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0DAr4cR079421 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:53:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACF24AC46; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:53:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231843983-21270-1/6/9 (4 recipients); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:53:03 +0100 Message-Id: <RJcIRUAky7b53hc+APKutg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:53:17 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <f470f68e0901120517x70d5bc01l2e2decece600a366@mail.gmail.com> <rf4tjGEuy9QaQHhyKfcSHw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <f470f68e0901120911r710183b0k63d39d0c8d7ebc37@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901120911r710183b0k63d39d0c8d7ebc37@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Robert Burrell Donkin writes: > On 1/12/09, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: >> It isn't limited to that. Borderline issues are in, only issues which >> do not apply to delivery over the internet are out. > > I think that makes sense to me now ("borderline" -> "border-straddling") > So, providing a use case could be equally applied to a synchronously > processed mail, it doesn't matter that the known examples are in > servers using asynchronous processing, right? Right. Provided that people think the known examples have plausible in-scope parallels. Arguing ONLY from out-of-scope use cases has bad karma. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D8STjE069835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:28:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0D8STZb069834; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:28:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0D8SGr5069815 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:28:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4007C4AC46; Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:28:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231835293-21270-1/6/5 (3 recipients); Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:28:13 +0100 Message-Id: <h5Wo2mXiNb1sS/3UMF8Uiw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:28:27 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Cc: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Pushing SCCCP out of the way isn't going to work very well... I suggest getting a new port (x) and using these rules: Clients MUST try port x first. If a client gets connection refused on the right port number, it MAY try 2000, but in that case it should watch out for SCCCP. Sieve banners look like <example>, and always contain a line starting with "SIEVE " and one starting with "IMPLEMENTATION ". SCCCP banners look like <example>, and always <dan?>. Servers MUST listen to port x, and MAY also listen to 2000 to cater to old clients. Client and server implementers using port 2000 should note that some/many old servers and clients have a bug wrt. literals. Sending correct literals may cause the peer to detect a "syntax error", and so does sending incorrect literals. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CJX7RF036037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:33:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CJX7Lv036036; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:33:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CJWumb036005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:33:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dwing@cisco.com) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,254,1231113600"; d="scan'208";a="121766635" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2009 19:32:55 +0000 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n0CJWtbx006810; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:32:55 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp01 ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0CJWt1h014143; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:32:55 GMT From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com> To: "'Alexey Melnikov'" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> References: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:32:55 -0800 Message-ID: <05a301c974ec$911d4c10$6157150a@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: Acl06yAD8c3W28brRuWgHO3w4kbR4wAAQNAQ In-Reply-To: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1406; t=1231788775; x=1232652775; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20<dwing@cisco.com> |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Recommended=20ManageSieve=20TCP=20port= 202000=20is=20already=20allocated=20to=20Cisco=20SCCP |Sender:=20; bh=w1yP7ptslGJtVmkc+mw3yxl31NoaJDBZ8BUY5k0EflI=; b=sIWI1Ny+10OdOCJVJbuU4+dTULay3BMwJ3lxN2Yb+E9KKAO4OlwpE8R5Ro Wug2AUy1VdzjWi2OUs5QxJ1n4CUS8JqYCzXG3oRAdgGzM/6tXD5DntoBpciB A2JgZ1ILav6vYI6sVRSgZg7ommbbNF2IBzuqsPpnrc6dtaNXXFPsM=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > -----Original Message----- > From: lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com > [mailto:lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com] On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 11:23 AM > To: Dan Wing; ietf-mta-filters@imc.org > Subject: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already > allocated to Cisco SCCP > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Amanda Baber via RT > <drafts-lastcall@icann.org> wrote: > > IESG: > > > > IANA has questions about draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-05.txt: > > > > - This document requests the allocation of a TCP port that has > > already been registered (2000, Cisco SCCP). Should the existing > > registration be changed from "Cisco SCCP" to "ManageSieve"? > > Dan, > ManageSieve was invented about 10 years ago and some implementations > used port 2000 (unfortunately without registering it with IANA). How > widely is Cisco SCCP implemented and would be changing the IANA > allocated port number an option for you? SCCP is our proprietary signaling protocol between our VoIP phones and Unified Communication Manager (formerly called Call Manager), with somewhere above 6 million IP phones in the field (as of 2005, <http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/global/asiapac/news/2005/pr_09-23.html>, most of which use SCCP. -d > To the WG: how widespread is usage of port 2000 for ManageSieve? Are > people using any other port numbers? Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CJMi40035624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:22:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CJMiGB035623; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:22:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com (yx-out-1718.google.com [74.125.44.152]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CJMXR2035613 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:22:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com) Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 36so4951669yxh.4 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; bh=SWAvWlUt6dUmTiXGGAhhtkR9MTRVZFgvBy8s8ov5BUs=; b=DDZ+rECMYj0zSTfnrB33iI2ZOa/7Uwo5ITCb9OlI3MUw9VfE0Kv4YaYYy0VZFeK31e exJZVDi5wGJv29D6AaebvxksgTqZZQbaP73gkSon7L+5TMmwVuZNQJ+iIiY7NZbmrnPK EFAwqiKI9wxtyVdaaN8kQIk5Sf2PgBsO5bJSo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=hbLnneMnjfKDzsxK9lPuq9H1TYCg/GUk/PVSGI4xkSTMT2EDghfLuEB098kUp+STQj EE1heL4NQk31dwvl8BYdMvep03BFcZh5SCpZgtPDr4YSo/1X2H8ldZr1Gs6HAI6CBb3D DfpRDnwcx0d4wYZLNy4p8Rp20UeA8emTOVknc= Received: by 10.143.6.19 with SMTP id j19mr12498004wfi.128.1231788152579; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.42.15 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29d3c4cb0901121122m55f1630fn3d3a375427b188b4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:32 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> To: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Recommended ManageSieve TCP port 2000 is already allocated to Cisco SCCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9cca278710a4ee1e Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Amanda Baber via RT <drafts-lastcall@icann.org> wrote: > IESG: > > IANA has questions about draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-05.txt: > > - This document requests the allocation of a TCP port that has > already been registered (2000, Cisco SCCP). Should the existing > registration be changed from "Cisco SCCP" to "ManageSieve"? Dan, ManageSieve was invented about 10 years ago and some implementations used port 2000 (unfortunately without registering it with IANA). How widely is Cisco SCCP implemented and would be changing the IANA allocated port number an option for you? To the WG: how widespread is usage of port 2000 for ManageSieve? Are people using any other port numbers? Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CHFO6t029114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:15:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CHFOQl029113; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:15:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CHFB6F029069 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:15:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so21452605bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=netM9NacJGCQsIYHLQTXdMSBE2/8S4XZba7ROH4Ro3Q=; b=ASLMtPd4t/dWnOlQh9019KJsGuoPzAT/m4IgfGCKNTBKatRyQbMxz1a1TsUg5wlAD5 88N07qbCVYV5zGQxPPkXWNULttCB7b/dW+d8+bFXPspl+S1yiwt8I6jV2yxwW7CQ+qJg HfaWejI1MaOgO8ZktLNx2TLz39JY7ZehDQisk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=ecpDM/gwjNuol1zEPyjVe9hkc8PGXwEB4AWbyT1uGreXNmR8mc1u65xKKWxiAOk1TF 6QMjVtK3s3aFM139o5upy/f73OIDX6g8xfFTfIXLeM8jKV0SpLRZvGBsVVvDoH4o33nY /D8RgNPzyfhFYH34Ktg41WXD0yLiDOUiIhgSU= Received: by 10.180.222.14 with SMTP id u14mr11037048bkg.141.1231780275820; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:11:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901120911r710183b0k63d39d0c8d7ebc37@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:11:15 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <rf4tjGEuy9QaQHhyKfcSHw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <f470f68e0901120517x70d5bc01l2e2decece600a366@mail.gmail.com> <rf4tjGEuy9QaQHhyKfcSHw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On 1/12/09, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > Robert Burrell Donkin writes: >> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen >> <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: >>> How to spool mail on disk is out of scope, and now to operate on the >>> spooled mail is, too. >> >> AIUI spooling does not imply that it's stored to disc, just that the >> SMTP transaction has completed and that the mail has been committed >> to permanent storage. > > Careless of me. Please allow me to rephrase my sentence: =ABHow to spool > mail is out of scope, and now to operate on the spooled mail is, too=BB. Ok >> however, the limit of the end of the SMTP transaction is an arbitrary >> restriction based on a particular mail server architecture. there are >> many ways that mail can enter a system over the public internet >> before final delivery. the working group documentation is anything >> but clear on the point that this working group is limited to the >> consideration of filter a single protocol (SMTP). > > It isn't limited to that. Borderline issues are in, only issues which do > not apply to delivery over the internet are out. I think that makes sense to me now So, providing a use case could be equally applied to a synchronously processed mail, it doesn't matter that the known examples are in servers using asynchronous processing, right? > Is there any such issue in Ned's draft? This issue arose from disputes about whether some use cases were in scope. I should have been a bit careful not to let it spiral out of control but some of Ned's at hominem comments got to me a little more than they deserved. Thanks Robert > > Arnt > Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CF1tth021658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:01:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CF1tWg021657; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:01:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CF1huK021629 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:01:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1864AC6A; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:01:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.0.5) with esmtp id 1231772502-21270-1/6/1 (4 recipients); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:01:42 +0100 Message-Id: <rf4tjGEuy9QaQHhyKfcSHw.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:01:54 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <f470f68e0901120517x70d5bc01l2e2decece600a366@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901120517x70d5bc01l2e2decece600a366@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Robert Burrell Donkin writes: > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen > <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: >> How to spool mail on disk is out of scope, and now to operate on the=20 >> spooled mail is, too. > > AIUI spooling does not imply that it's stored to disc, just that the=20 > SMTP transaction has completed and that the mail has been committed=20 > to permanent storage. Careless of me. Please allow me to rephrase my sentence: =ABHow to spool=20 mail is out of scope, and now to operate on the spooled mail is, too=BB. > however, the limit of the end of the SMTP transaction is an arbitrary=20 > restriction based on a particular mail server architecture. there are=20 > many ways that mail can enter a system over the public internet=20 > before final delivery. the working group documentation is anything=20 > but clear on the point that this working group is limited to the=20 > consideration of filter a single protocol (SMTP). It isn't limited to that. Borderline issues are in, only issues which do=20 not apply to delivery over the internet are out. Is there any such issue in Ned's draft? Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CDsI16014498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:54:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CDsIGD014497; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:54:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CDs6Pg014477 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:54:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so21263513bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:54:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=8Y9lyJ2EcjiDl0fzhl0m7cxTq+s7o/L1kuAjn4ZO/mU=; b=OMahpijjsMqNAfRSEg6ibPG6YdlQftZJsDXRhvPnfFOlK8TwZNsTpGOcv+/B/LFVWD n0A0mJ8/SAD/S//aS8Wx4S38HUeY/l1IP0ipx1uyHP21on3EpC7aiS581IrBBti/KzbQ Otvx81CyH4gbCUXcREuYzCWya4G/Z8H3MOG7Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=VgHYXib/YCeTsOJp4e5oKMeXhuzXooYpYjdjeqkKIGdRW6X9JmH7ckShmuoUKl4iRN +wkeNS+fgqkiN0OHSpgtrzwJySbQCMgUdL0AUH3+YguehmgR6Tm/31+jWRHjx2PrvEl/ 6yAOJlaYU8rI7cYkN5z9B3bNoBJT42KI3+h40= Received: by 10.181.50.1 with SMTP id c1mr10991823bkk.3.1231768214601; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:50:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901120550p550e357cqf53454b551cbed5b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:50:14 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Aaron Stone" <aaron@serendipity.cx> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1231732067.16458.214.camel@turtle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231732067.16458.214.camel@turtle> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> wrote: > On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 18:30 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: >> > so, just to ensure i understand this issue - you've decided to support >> > namespaces fully and drop support for namespace unaware parsers? >> >> > (FWIW this is fine by me) >> >> Nope. I've decided not to specify any sort of "standard namespace prefix" >> in the document. That's all. >> >> I have no idea what you mean by "support namespaces fully". But given the tone >> of your most recent responses I'm no longer willing to spend time in a >> give-and-take trying to figure what you mean by this. > > Let's try to keep this conversation on the path of concrete examples. I > had no idea what this entire thread was about until Robert gave a > specific XML snippet to illustrate what he wanted to do, and you gave a > different one in response to illustrate the document state. this isn't what i wanted to do but it was intended to illustrate a point. i will try to remember to include more examples in future, though. > My current understanding from trying to follow this thread is that this > snippet (from Robert) is not valid according to the document: > > <control name="if"> > <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> > <test name="header"> > <tag>is</tag> > <str>Sender</str> > <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> > </test> > <action name="fileinto"> > <str>filter</str> > </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> > </control> > > This is syntactically valid XML, but semantically the element from the > 'mix' namespace isn't going to make sense to a naive Sieve-XML parser. yes - i think this goes to the heart of the discussion > By some magic of XML specification buzzwords, I gather that the above > snippet can be declared valid or invalid by the schema definition. > > How are mixed-namespace documents like this handled by XML parsers / > editors / UIs / etc? it depends on the approach generative approaches generally handle this poorly. hand crafted approaches handle this fine. these days, using SAX directly is rare and DOM is out of fashion (too slow) so generative approaches tend to dominate (at least in the java and .NET). generative editors struggle with semantically mixed domains: it needs some clue about which are annotations and which are sieve. this can be fixed by editing the schema to remove the annotations. > Is it reasonable to disallow a mixed namespace like > this? Is there a reason not to allow such mixing? disallowing mixed means that the schema can be used directly to generate a good domain model which maps easily to the nodes in a sieve processor. allowing mixing means that existing editors which use their own annotations can be used reasonably directly. mixed content makes binding more fiddly. most likely, the XML binding would either need to be done by hand, some kind of DOM used or a SAX filter with conventional XML binding framework upstream. not a major issue when loading the XML directly from a stream, quite possibly more difficult if you want to use a framework of some kind (eg web services). a secondary question is what library creators (as opposed to application creators) should do when they encounter mixed markup. i think it's reasonable just to ignore it and concentrate just on the elements which have semantic meaning in sieve (but others may disagree). > What if someone wants to use the Sieve-XML schema within a larger > document? For example: > > <foomail:config> > <foomail:service service="smtp"> > <foomail:port>25</foomail:port> > <foomail:listen>127.0.0.1</foomail:listen> > </foomail:service> > <foomail:user id="1"> > <foomail:name>Username</foomail:name> > <foomail:sieves> > <foomail:sieve> > <foomail:name>On vacation</foomail:name> > <foomail:script> > <sieve:action name="vacation"> > <sieve:str>I'm away on vacation.</sieve:str> > </sieve:action> > </foomail:script> > </foomail:sieve> > </foomail:sieves> > </foomail:user> > </foomail:config> this isn't usually such a problem since the foomail schema can either specify any element, or just include sieve. (this is very similar to SOAP so i'll include some general comments about web services) in practice, though, most generative approaches to web services don't work that well with schema that include arbitrary elements. so, the main issue would be whether the particular web service framework would work without editing the schema. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CDHTaa011776 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CDHTlv011774; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:17:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.184]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CDHHM7011762 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:17:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so5552285fkq.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:17:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=XHdFozUEuoDCVRXw5E/mTvmtZVrHP6guKHVULP+g0qc=; b=dpDvIa20zPFolKEzAoBOrXDoSPA3NjZXa18WWpywx7vL2pjQciPZrEt1+USQTS0ZXW Qb2yd5uX+60wGv7EFpdiCiHG/HBw20ZJuY11ilo9KHE7KEAnDiQKQtDcx3YSmC9Q2g28 L73t3E1tJLBtu6ckZ/JNwLGJfyNAVzjrQcCSE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=wNIj/x5aMIagOLcDBzQlTY1+MtLCNriYZ1v1bLbh42Q9WimXFbxhXcCpvGdMEhJ/90 W1tdEkr2i/Hy1PIZ3pcNyTIEJO0Rxf6WenzcGEplfxR84KQpVmJ6pMzkzbQJLql0P6In 0OvQqwGI4WKibyjLios3cfI5cQHznUfCY9mPM= Received: by 10.180.214.15 with SMTP id m15mr10966883bkg.78.1231766236819; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:17:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901120517x70d5bc01l2e2decece600a366@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:17:16 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org, "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote: > Robert Burrell Donkin writes: >> >> I undestand now that this working group has been intentionally chartered >> to exclude mail servers with a spooling architecture. Can anybody explain >> why the IETF decided to exclude this class of mail server from it's >> specification process? > > The IETF limits itself to things used over the public internet. agreed > How to spool > mail on disk is out of scope, and now to operate on the spooled mail is, > too. AIUI spooling does not imply that it's stored to disc, just that the SMTP transaction has completed and that the mail has been committed to permanent storage. however, the limit of the end of the SMTP transaction is an arbitrary restriction based on a particular mail server architecture. there are many ways that mail can enter a system over the public internet before final delivery. the working group documentation is anything but clear on the point that this working group is limited to the consideration of filter a single protocol (SMTP). - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CBP0fG004298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:25:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CBP0hB004297; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:25:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CBOwRd004288 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:24:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A133C4AC5A; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:24:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1231759497-75452-1/6/25 (4 recipients); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:24:57 +0100 Message-Id: <IvwUgzzICmnHRBvykAYmkg.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:25:09 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: > The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The > stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock > material into structured comments. This can easily be > extended/changed to cover the handling of material in other > namespaces. But do we want to formalize the structured comment > convention? My desire for structured comments is vanishingly small. My two cents. > Finally, there's the issue of how to handle other comments, which > we've discussed in the past but may be worth revisiting now. > Currently regular Sieve comments are mapped to <comment></comment> > blocks rather than to proper XML comments. The reason for this is > that not all XML processors provide access to stuff inside of <!-- > foo --> constructs, so comments may get lost when converting from > Sieve-in-XML back to regular Sieve. Do we want to continue to do > things this way? It's a decent reason at least, but it doesn't make me very happy. > In any case, here's a concrete proposal for how to move forward: > > (1) Add the necessary stuff to allow use of XML in other namespaces > whereever displaydata is currently allowed. > > (2) Drop displaydata, making the use of namespaces required if you want > to embed other stuff inside of a Sieve-in-XML. > > (3) Add a section defining the structured comment convention for > representing this other stuff in regular Sieve format. > > (4) Change displayblock to just block, making it clear it can be used for > other sorts of groupings. > > (5) Leave the current mapping of unstructured Sieve comments to > <comment></comment> blocks alone. OK. I wish I'd kept my mouth shut. So many of these things are just better than some even worse alternative. <comment> exists so that even bad XML processors must preserve comments in a round-trip conversion, which seems weak justification. Not so weak that I actively disagree, but weak enough to make me unhappy. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CAcZWS000627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:38:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0CAcZVj000626; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:38:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0CAcNLH000606 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:38:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24F4AC6A; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:38:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1231756701-75452-1/6/23 (4 recipients); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:38:21 +0100 Message-Id: </te0ORth/hAITHcbKReg0g.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:38:33 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Robert Burrell Donkin writes: > I undestand now that this working group has been intentionally > chartered to exclude mail servers with a spooling architecture. Can > anybody explain why the IETF decided to exclude this class of mail > server from it's specification process? The IETF limits itself to things used over the public internet. How to spool mail on disk is out of scope, and now to operate on the spooled mail is, too. There are some borderline cases. Sieve is one. The text format for IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are another. I guess ARP is a third, come to think of it. I suppose RFCs 2852 and/or 5321 might contain words about spools and timeouts. But in general, the IETF is about the public internet. Maybe the IETF should have a wider scope. I don't want to discuss that (not here and now, perhaps even never). Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C7xGJT091771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:59:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C7xGaw091770; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:59:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C7xEFs091764 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:59:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so20945164bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:59:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Q8EgoE66jgv+kHvXSk9TvdNu0o4iPJY06yJa84lcnY0=; b=Nc4ggufXvyWxtVfkHYgOF4UaHAgd0nUX2DpR4XNeIJ/VxzyTmunrXMVZVqw/wI4VDP p+A6d9AVi6rmnEDgCQQGd949xUgo80/DpNWED7h1QltNXbYrkut8SAh+YYT1FQbHoQqM cXH2gE8nOvmE5Z7Lb7Q6FiMhNdkhP7v467VeY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=evfaTmZ+mPbRSsjxCiJISX28PrTCYg4Y/WLT8f1gW39/4mohKstJKtmLBVVo5XE1YZ 8hABBo2lkNrasR1/QyYirSgc1akRL8AFmIo45fsZojApbU4iSJfFiTOAHQZxq8j1iper yCYuaqWlxJbbYTYog3qn+k4zw9xvsqPK1hoUk= Received: by 10.181.199.11 with SMTP id b11mr9947429bkq.105.1231747153873; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:59:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901112359n171e010aq7bf0a17efc2ef66c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:59:13 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On 1/12/09, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> so, just to ensure i understand this issue - you've decided to support >> namespaces fully and drop support for namespace unaware parsers? > >> (FWIW this is fine by me) > > Nope. I've decided not to specify any sort of "standard namespace prefix" > in the document. That's all. > > I have no idea what you mean by "support namespaces fully". But given the > tone > of your most recent responses I'm no longer willing to spend time in a > give-and-take trying to figure what you mean by this. This point arose from the discussion on namespace support. Since then you have moved from a refusal to support namespacing to effectively dropping your requirement to support compatibility with legacy namespace unaware parsers. Fine by me. Robert > > Ned > Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C7f1XC091096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:41:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C7f1wn091095; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:41:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C7em69091083 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:40:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so20929687bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:40:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=+Hooew0dQzxoWn40S0Y+sE2v6mhLfZltGUUekeMAvfo=; b=oIsy1CJQhyNPvgGPfTAND735hXbeO9BpZAq21o/Skh52IMCs4bBG++fS/fyKOh6bTf AtWeSLyJHmGAZhV8PT40uYR2Z8yGm1BtlsVUuti8sLcdGxo8julGrJiZw+U+RnhzZtyg vscKn8lx3d6TjMXtJvC+6QFFHhLdt5If1Qe7s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=Tu/Im7PS8QNh9SMY2eX+A+bv6y4nmqP0t+MYdwJF1THhNSpcwpZJDayfYjSQQSfPMq Py2udt5++/ns333LgWoKg3aCy8EcGDsJ9T9oJW6NCJaIpA+SHV41MlLeYiHUDMObEp4R PCm0YT3C1WhBEkQa5RzTpspyRA5wktGdrYbw8= Received: by 10.181.201.18 with SMTP id d18mr10875321bkq.125.1231746047550; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:40:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901112340g3598c37am7b9af06df9e0290b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:40:47 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On 1/12/09, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > >> <snip> > >> >> > But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it >> >> > or not, >> >> > Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at >> >> > or around >> >> > the time of final delivery. >> >> > The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may >> >> > be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of >> >> > the work >> >> > this group is chartered to do. >> > >> >> is this http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sieve-charter.html the >> >> charter? >> > >> > Yes > >> could anyone kindly point me to the sections which indicate that only >> mail servers of a particular class of architecture are in scope? > > I've already done so in previous messages. It's the very first thing RFC > 5228, > the Sieve base specification, says: > > This document describes a language for filtering email messages at > time of final delivery. > > Final delivery is a formal term used in many IETF email standards. It refers > to > the point at which the message exists the SMTP transport infrastructure and > enters the message store. > > As its charter makes clear, the current Sieve group is chartered to work on > a > very specific set of Sieve extensions. There is nothing in there about > revisiting the scope of applicability of Sieve. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I undestand now that this working group has been intentionally chartered to exclude mail servers with a spooling architecture. Can anybody explain why the IETF decided to exclude this class of mail server from it's specification process? Robert > > Ned > Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C3qvQ5080697 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:52:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C3qvD5080696; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:52:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C3qlPn080684 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:52:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from [172.16.1.33] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26BC2940; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:54:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? From: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:47:47 -0800 Message-Id: <1231732067.16458.214.camel@turtle> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 18:30 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > > so, just to ensure i understand this issue - you've decided to support > > namespaces fully and drop support for namespace unaware parsers? > > > (FWIW this is fine by me) > > Nope. I've decided not to specify any sort of "standard namespace prefix" > in the document. That's all. > > I have no idea what you mean by "support namespaces fully". But given the tone > of your most recent responses I'm no longer willing to spend time in a > give-and-take trying to figure what you mean by this. Let's try to keep this conversation on the path of concrete examples. I had no idea what this entire thread was about until Robert gave a specific XML snippet to illustrate what he wanted to do, and you gave a different one in response to illustrate the document state. My current understanding from trying to follow this thread is that this snippet (from Robert) is not valid according to the document: <control name="if"> <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> <test name="header"> <tag>is</tag> <str>Sender</str> <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> </test> <action name="fileinto"> <str>filter</str> </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> </control> This is syntactically valid XML, but semantically the element from the 'mix' namespace isn't going to make sense to a naive Sieve-XML parser. By some magic of XML specification buzzwords, I gather that the above snippet can be declared valid or invalid by the schema definition. How are mixed-namespace documents like this handled by XML parsers / editors / UIs / etc? Is it reasonable to disallow a mixed namespace like this? Is there a reason not to allow such mixing? What if someone wants to use the Sieve-XML schema within a larger document? For example: <foomail:config> <foomail:service service="smtp"> <foomail:port>25</foomail:port> <foomail:listen>127.0.0.1</foomail:listen> </foomail:service> <foomail:user id="1"> <foomail:name>Username</foomail:name> <foomail:sieves> <foomail:sieve> <foomail:name>On vacation</foomail:name> <foomail:script> <sieve:action name="vacation"> <sieve:str>I'm away on vacation.</sieve:str> </sieve:action> </foomail:script> </foomail:sieve> </foomail:sieves> </foomail:user> </foomail:config> Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C3Kmo3079959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:20:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C3Km13079958; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:20:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C3Kl3r079952 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:20:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46IJ6GYV400PZH8@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46FUPZOSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:20:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:45:16 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:57:43 -0800" <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> To: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N46IJ4SZ8G00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > > So I guess the question for the group here is what extensibility model do we > > really want here? Do we want to require enclosure of material from other XML > > sources in displaydata blocks, or do we want to allow other stuff to appear > > without such blocks as long as it's in another namespace? > I plead ignorance to the finer details of the XML Schema stuff described > above, but off the cuff, not requiring displaydata seems cleaner to me. Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple. The question is whether or not to require the use of namespaces in order to embed stuff inside of a Sieve script expressed in XML. Both XML Schema and Relax let you say "allow any additional elements you want here as long as it's in a different namespace". Alternately, you can say "allow absolutely anything here", but if you do that you have to put it inside of a container element of some sort, which is exactly what <displaydata> is. What you cannot do is simply allow arbitrary content in the same namespace at the same level as other elements that are schema validated. (Actually, you can specify something like this in Relax, but the result is that you're validating almost nothing.) > Is the reason for the displaydata tag to tell an otherwise ignorant > Sieve-XML-only program that the contents of the displaydata should be > handled as verbatim data? Yes, more or less. There has to be some indication that this content lies outside the Sieve schema. That can done either with a namespace label or with a container element. So if we want to rely on namespaces, which IMO is a fine thing to do, we can simply loosen the schema to allow material from other namespaces in and drop displaydata entirely. (Displayblock, OTOH, still serves a useful purpose - you need something like it to provide a higher level grouping construct.) The other issue here is how to map this stuff to regular Sieve. The stylesheet given in the appendix maps displaydata and displayblock material into structured comments. This can easily be extended/changed to cover the handling of material in other namespaces. But do we want to formalize the structured comment convention? Finally, there's the issue of how to handle other comments, which we've discussed in the past but may be worth revisiting now. Currently regular Sieve comments are mapped to <comment></comment> blocks rather than to proper XML comments. The reason for this is that not all XML processors provide access to stuff inside of <!-- foo --> constructs, so comments may get lost when converting from Sieve-in-XML back to regular Sieve. Do we want to continue to do things this way? In any case, here's a concrete proposal for how to move forward: (1) Add the necessary stuff to allow use of XML in other namespaces whereever displaydata is currently allowed. (2) Drop displaydata, making the use of namespaces required if you want to embed other stuff inside of a Sieve-in-XML. (3) Add a section defining the structured comment convention for representing this other stuff in regular Sieve format. (4) Change displayblock to just block, making it clear it can be used for other sorts of groupings. (5) Leave the current mapping of unstructured Sieve comments to <comment></comment> blocks alone. Comments? Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2a2is077889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:36:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C2a2VQ077888; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:36:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2a1DT077882 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:36:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46GYPU0RK00UTW4@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46FUPZOSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:35:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:30:28 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:05:18 +0000" <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N46GYO3T2Q00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > so, just to ensure i understand this issue - you've decided to support > namespaces fully and drop support for namespace unaware parsers? > (FWIW this is fine by me) Nope. I've decided not to specify any sort of "standard namespace prefix" in the document. That's all. I have no idea what you mean by "support namespaces fully". But given the tone of your most recent responses I'm no longer willing to spend time in a give-and-take trying to figure what you mean by this. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2EuU9077182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:14:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C2Euwj077181; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:14:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C2EjZ9077171 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:14:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46G8BPSM800V35K@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N46FUPZOSW00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:05:01 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:01:34 +0000" <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N46G8A8H6K00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > <snip> > >> > But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it or not, > >> > Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at or around > >> > the time of final delivery. > >> > The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may > >> > be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of the work > >> > this group is chartered to do. > > > >> is this http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sieve-charter.html the charter? > > > > Yes > could anyone kindly point me to the sections which indicate that only > mail servers of a particular class of architecture are in scope? I've already done so in previous messages. It's the very first thing RFC 5228, the Sieve base specification, says: This document describes a language for filtering email messages at time of final delivery. Final delivery is a formal term used in many IETF email standards. It refers to the point at which the message exists the SMTP transport infrastructure and enters the message store. As its charter makes clear, the current Sieve group is chartered to work on a very specific set of Sieve extensions. There is nothing in there about revisiting the scope of applicability of Sieve. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C26B28076718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:06:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0C26BQU076717; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:06:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ladle.sendmail.com (ladle.sendmail.com [209.246.26.53]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0C260Uk076707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:06:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from fife.sendmail.com (fife.sendmail.com [209.246.26.50]) by ladle.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.1/Sentrion-3.0.0) with ESMTP id n0C28rII014989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:08:53 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=ladle.dkim; t=1231726133; bh=QNLpUvl6f9UE3W94WMQaSxUzPM7fIoSoJVrO BouyqOU=; h=Received:X-DKIM:DKIM-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To: cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:User-Agent: MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-MM-Ex-RefId; b=CgBxYZBXzH/BAVsxACAGH1a m7XrEcPxTe9ulznDjyWN0tBS7Jnkx3MQzH/g0HMs8vATWUQTOMrBqY2uPHL0oRP3ZLV u05i9vI9S48A6kIWJHFIv3LWC/c+YzvCjGaP/U4dsVtLH2ST+ZLUfxoJMsU8W/vxYOm Jfsfiw3Fnh4ljQ= Received: from [10.210.202.20] ([10.210.202.20]) (authenticated bits=0) by fife.sendmail.com (Switch-3.3.3mp/Switch-3.3.2mp) with ESMTP id n0C25wtq019738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:05:58 -0800 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.5.6 fife.sendmail.com n0C25wtq019738 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=fife.dkim; t=1231725959; bh=QNLpUvl6f9UE3W94WMQaSxUzPM7fIoSoJVrOB ouyqOU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID: References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=H2GkE0qRie6/jxL+L7BHQ7gXOf NDqEAO36Xt6OZvcAFqhGlagX8eFt0KFRtwCDLcujgzQ3xDbPFq5pv7DRb1T1Zz37pBQ UwdU3dQXdB1eAfH1rSBei39Nbt6wDY64tOaxHDHTu3MLW+tVjmNHBg8AfeZ46aXNkQv vVS1Ei1wX3g= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:05:55 -0800 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.sendmail.com To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-Reply-To: <f470f68e0901100952q8e5e0fex6b99e9c137ec4021@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.BSO.2.00.0901111754090.24319@vanye.sendmail.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901100952q8e5e0fex6b99e9c137ec4021@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSO 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-MM-Ex-RefId: 149371::090111180558-11670B90-004A4D08/0-0/99-17 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote: ... > we're currently adding xml serialisation for jsieve over at apache. > there are number of concrete use cases that this serialisation needs to > satisfy. This entire discussion might have been less painful if the concrete use cases the jsieve developers have had been brought up at the beginning. The discussion that has progressed has been almost completely abstract; the one time someone actually said "for example, such-and-such doesn't work" the subthread seemed to resolve itself almost directly. As is, the "does it support namespaces" thread is completely confused in my mind because I have been unable to determine what you consider necessary and sufficient, Robert. (Fortunately, I'm just a bystander on this doc, so I'm not sweating my failure here.) Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BM5NXR068526 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:05:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BM5NvQ068525; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:05:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BM5K5Y068518 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:05:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so20576514bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:05:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Vwb30xxvFsFubnibO733HGE7GfH+oNMl6CgRHSqln+A=; b=ptEjwprMpOkLvnp2fgc4U+vaXzR9G+hHfyd38kPSgP0HKK+LdcTLSjkfuKn7gboLrI 94sPxgNQMKxi9XRje1ZalSuGgYzDmHm/Pqz+SgRt3HTj+Sva4uWo806M+iltDAWhSnbO U36cTqRhrZhuMj2mgGwTCcLGEjtrJqEJX+88I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=jf16azr0VjGsOscBxKwAH1lepO4aoKkSTZtF0w/AdiAohAx4V/T8rLf1lKHbxab5OT ISqm0x85oLSuzbo6CtpEYPaEkhl+VYoJ3e27PrQegJbOVn1mDyyPu96UOJhEFfB2PyvT bGF8rXkr6/nXeap8yO1+rjh9lkEa+faiG9Z64= Received: by 10.181.146.11 with SMTP id y11mr10717190bkn.5.1231711518705; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901111405h3a65f384qb1df274b2cf35f60@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:05:18 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> > AFAIK the specific namespace prefix that gets bound to the namespace name is >> > not something that can or should be standardized. Rather, it is declared on a >> > per-document basis using an xmlns attribute. Any agent out there that supports >> > namespaces should support the use of xmlns to pick whatever prefix a given >> > document binds to the urn:ietf:params:xml:sieve namespace. > >> this choice of namespace prefix is the root cause of incompatibility >> between namespace aware and unaware parsers > >> for example, 'sieve:abc' is just a name to unaware parsers while aware >> parsers understand this as a namespace prefix and a local part. the >> namespace prefix is resolved to a URI and that is used as the basis of >> comparison. specifing a standard prefix (for example, sieve) ensures >> that in both cases equality works as expected. > > This is finally something I can understand as a rationale for wanting > to define a standard namespace prefix. > > This doesn't appear to be specific to Sieve-in-XML either - if this makes sense > it should be something we're doing in similar XML specifications. So the first > thing I did was check out a bunch of other RFCs - not an exhaustive search but > I did check a dozen or so - to see if this has been done and if so, how. But > AFAICT this has not been done elsewhere. The closest thing to it are statements > of the general form "this document uses the prefix foo to identify the bar > namespace throughout". This falls far short of a "MUST use foo: as the > namespace prefix" or even a SHOULD. In fact some RFCs go out of their way to > make it clear the use of a particular prefix is NOT being standardized. > > For example, RFC 5023 (ATOM) has this to say: > > This specification uses the prefix "app:" for the namespace name. The prefix > "atom:" is used for "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom", the namespace name of the > Atom Syndication Format [RFC4287]. These namespace prefixes are not > semantically significant. > > Note that last sentence and the lack of any compliance language. > > In other words, this is apparently not current practice for IETF use of XML. > But should it be? I decided the answer to this general question is a little > above my pay grade. Fortunately, the IETF has this thing called the XML > directorate, where people with XML issues can reach out to folks with real > expertise. > > I sent a query to the directorate yesterday, which included your statement > verbatim, and received two responses almost immediately, from Tim Bray and Lisa > Dusseault. (Tim you probably know - he's one of the coauthors of the XML > namespace specification, among other stuff. And Lisa is the area director > responsible for this WG.) I've asked for permission to resend their responses > to the Sieve WG, but in the meantime what I can say is that both were opposed > to doing this on the grounds that prefixes cannot be tied down this way because > of the potential for conflicts. > > Given the apparently lack of stated support from others in the group and the > lack of support for this from the directorate, I now regard this issue > as closed. so, just to ensure i understand this issue - you've decided to support namespaces fully and drop support for namespace unaware parsers? (FWIW this is fine by me) - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BM1bGx068427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:01:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BM1bC2068426; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:01:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BM1atE068418 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:01:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so20573905bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:01:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=s9RLg8UriIqhfmsqLMam1pqjlagAhrEZxdNXLBNqKp0=; b=oV/HAYCvA3POkgANz/hb2SJaENwg9h8whTK+6FzKBYJeNKAHHBYYsZ8tp4NLgDT8iZ /VJyQ51P0were8+dtwEax7i3lpGWA7/hK9sURS2swvOjDPwfEeEAqC+mevDq9vNxlFUt 5ub2FTJ4f+dyJa1y1IKVGGNmz/L3Fswy1HqHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=bHFYb8VWWPMNEs6FVswiyfnz1DPi1rVjEK1moDAQT6jwi9xBUD0IQbO7Rnn9mn3zgO POy97HH9INwdL5BI+FzE80hwL46zby+dgbINPIj4+W3GirbOD9VI5ouvbpA7vPkXntAh woJUdt8OpD6Cgh1N55rVm1G3r7PCratbnLhfs= Received: by 10.180.213.14 with SMTP id l14mr10708217bkg.107.1231711294912; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:01:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901111401w7a8f9bccv9a19b6ec46e83253@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:01:34 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: <snip> >> > But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it or not, >> > Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at or around >> > the time of final delivery. >> > The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may >> > be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of the work >> > this group is chartered to do. > >> is this http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sieve-charter.html the charter? > > Yes could anyone kindly point me to the sections which indicate that only mail servers of a particular class of architecture are in scope? - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLw5Lf068311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:58:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BLw5xN068310; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:58:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLvqML068301 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:58:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so20570899bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:57:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=dirx6j02/h+9Cw+fznvucmyzq0uor7+JEkf/hnRjrvE=; b=xeSCg22e1z60gVzbjEh2LF7pEfmU2VqpWcYxpwTKpheJpfuCRoOadfq8wE02H3RA2t BiJgmfRFA8/9LUxG7DnrEHw+zuGOsiLUvPJz3wO5s2tqIvG66stETC6AyU3SJMpa1k4H zW/m6daOjuC92ABtBQhSsWFG/OioqelVVTOBY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=HDghvda4if9OL593oQWYfQLap3LkMOyiJItp+lX3ybTNfLJBYpbqGqkkVtA8AFhskD sb7sP2fLGI6/4Bwp9i2qxFNVQZ0k6MlldG9ho7NF8TKTy8l+U+/+3n9FIcrFM5D3K/I8 LQ/CmtQ+7Ax2S96BMIJwtIInq7gcM7wgtCEzQ= Received: by 10.180.244.19 with SMTP id r19mr9749059bkh.9.1231711071294; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:57:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901111357i3970cf89wf3f761c2ca06baf5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:57:51 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: <snip> >> >> for the class of application (enterprise mail servers is a name that's >> >> sometimes used but quite possibly that's not familiar to others in the >> >> group), unfortunately it is >> > >> > Robert, developing enterprise and ISP class mail servers is what I do for a >> > living. I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So I think this is something >> > I might know just a little bit about. > >> i am not unaware of your background but i fail to see why i should >> respect your arguments when you are so clearly uninformed about a >> class of mail server which are almost a decade old now > > And by the same token, why should I respect any of your arguments when you > clearly have minimal knoeledge of overall email architecture, Sieve semanticss, > or IETF processes? ad hominem are widely acknowledged to be the best way to win discussions on the internet and play a vital role in the creation of high standard specifications i think i understand why the IEFT is now held in such low regard by most modern developers and why i was warned against participating in this group - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLHKSS067101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:17:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BLHKIp067100; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:17:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLH9WI067087 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:17:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N465TCWA5S00UJEN@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N43Q7ZZWTS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:17:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:21:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:20:48 +0000" <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N465T9JTGS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > > AFAIK the specific namespace prefix that gets bound to the namespace name is > > not something that can or should be standardized. Rather, it is declared on a > > per-document basis using an xmlns attribute. Any agent out there that supports > > namespaces should support the use of xmlns to pick whatever prefix a given > > document binds to the urn:ietf:params:xml:sieve namespace. > this choice of namespace prefix is the root cause of incompatibility > between namespace aware and unaware parsers > for example, 'sieve:abc' is just a name to unaware parsers while aware > parsers understand this as a namespace prefix and a local part. the > namespace prefix is resolved to a URI and that is used as the basis of > comparison. specifing a standard prefix (for example, sieve) ensures > that in both cases equality works as expected. This is finally something I can understand as a rationale for wanting to define a standard namespace prefix. This doesn't appear to be specific to Sieve-in-XML either - if this makes sense it should be something we're doing in similar XML specifications. So the first thing I did was check out a bunch of other RFCs - not an exhaustive search but I did check a dozen or so - to see if this has been done and if so, how. But AFAICT this has not been done elsewhere. The closest thing to it are statements of the general form "this document uses the prefix foo to identify the bar namespace throughout". This falls far short of a "MUST use foo: as the namespace prefix" or even a SHOULD. In fact some RFCs go out of their way to make it clear the use of a particular prefix is NOT being standardized. For example, RFC 5023 (ATOM) has this to say: This specification uses the prefix "app:" for the namespace name. The prefix "atom:" is used for "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom", the namespace name of the Atom Syndication Format [RFC4287]. These namespace prefixes are not semantically significant. Note that last sentence and the lack of any compliance language. In other words, this is apparently not current practice for IETF use of XML. But should it be? I decided the answer to this general question is a little above my pay grade. Fortunately, the IETF has this thing called the XML directorate, where people with XML issues can reach out to folks with real expertise. I sent a query to the directorate yesterday, which included your statement verbatim, and received two responses almost immediately, from Tim Bray and Lisa Dusseault. (Tim you probably know - he's one of the coauthors of the XML namespace specification, among other stuff. And Lisa is the area director responsible for this WG.) I've asked for permission to resend their responses to the Sieve WG, but in the meantime what I can say is that both were opposed to doing this on the grounds that prefixes cannot be tied down this way because of the potential for conflicts. Given the apparently lack of stated support from others in the group and the lack of support for this from the directorate, I now regard this issue as closed. > >> for the class of application (enterprise mail servers is a name that's > >> sometimes used but quite possibly that's not familiar to others in the > >> group), unfortunately it is > > > > Robert, developing enterprise and ISP class mail servers is what I do for a > > living. I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So I think this is something > > I might know just a little bit about. > i am not unaware of your background but i fail to see why i should > respect your arguments when you are so clearly uninformed about a > class of mail server which are almost a decade old now And by the same token, why should I respect any of your arguments when you clearly have minimal knoeledge of overall email architecture, Sieve semanticss, or IETF processes? > > But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it or not, > > Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at or around > > the time of final delivery. > > The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may > > be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of the work > > this group is chartered to do. > is this http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sieve-charter.html the charter? Yes. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLE2ci066955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:14:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BLE2KJ066954; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:14:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BLDn0K066939 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:14:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692BD4AC5A; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:13:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1231708426-75452-1/6/21 (4 recipients); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:13:46 +0100 Message-Id: <akHIf79YN8ji5RX4WMpYvA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:13:57 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed writes: > So I guess the question for the group here is what extensibility model > do we really want here? Do we want to require enclosure of material > from other XML sources in displaydata blocks, or do we want to allow > other stuff to appear without such blocks as long as it's in another > namespace? Using displaydata for that purpose sounds like a hack, or do I misunderstand? "Displaydata" doesn't sound like a natural name for importing data from another schema. The uses cases I've thought of involve sieve stuff embedded in a greater context, not other stuff included in the sieve blah. So I don't care very much about how importing things into sieve... but if that is to be allowed, allowing it properly is better than hackily. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BJ2sQ3061131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:02:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BJ2sRU061130; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:02:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.serendipity.cx (serendipity.palo-alto.ca.us [66.92.2.87]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BJ2hJh061120 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:02:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aaron@serendipity.cx) Received: from [172.16.1.33] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.serendipity.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0176540FF; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:04:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? From: Aaron Stone <aaron@serendipity.cx> To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Cc: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:57:43 -0800 Message-Id: <1231700263.16458.102.camel@turtle> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.24.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, 2009-01-11 at 07:48 -0800, Ned Freed wrote: > > no, not at all > > > i'll explain at more length what i meant > > > the draft does not allow xml from other namespaces within sieve > > fragments. for example (assuming sieve is the default namespace and > > mix is some other namespace), the following is excluded by the current > > draft schema: > > > <control name="if"> > > <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> > > <test name="header"> > > <tag>is</tag> > > <str>Sender</str> > > <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> > > </test> > > <action name="fileinto"> > > <str>filter</str> > > </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> > > </control> > > > does my comment make sense now? > > Nope. First of all, it simply isn't true: The <displaydata> element is defined > as an xsd:any without a namespace attribute (which defaults to ##any, meaning > any namespace is allowed) and with a processContents attribute set to skip, > meaning no schema is required for anything inside. So your example can be > written: > > <control name="if"> > <displaydata> > <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> > </displaydata> > <test name="header"> > <tag>is</tag> > <str>Sender</str> > <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> > </test> > <action name="fileinto"> > <str>filter</str> > </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> > </control> > > and be schema-valid. (Actually, I cheated a little here - the schema in the > current draft has a bug where it is missing displaydata and displayblock in the > first choice in the command type definition. This has to be fixed for the > above to validate. But this has nothing to do with the use or non-use > of other namespaces.) > > Now, perhaps your objection is that you have to use displaydata containers in > order to embed material from other namespaces and you don't want to have to do > that. If so, that's easily remedied by adding some > > <xsd:any namespace="##other" processContents="lax"/> > > directives. The equivalent in Relax is something like: > > any = element * { mixed { ( any | attribute * { text } )* } } > extelements = element * - ( local:* | sieve:* ) { any }* > extattributes = attribute * - ( local:* | sieve:* ) { text }* > extnodes = ( extattributes extelements) > > So I guess the question for the group here is what extensibility model do we > really want here? Do we want to require enclosure of material from other XML > sources in displaydata blocks, or do we want to allow other stuff to appear > without such blocks as long as it's in another namespace? I plead ignorance to the finer details of the XML Schema stuff described above, but off the cuff, not requiring displaydata seems cleaner to me. Is the reason for the displaydata tag to tell an otherwise ignorant Sieve-XML-only program that the contents of the displaydata should be handled as verbatim data? Aaron Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BIIa1B059307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:18:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BIIaTY059306; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:18:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BIIOrR059289 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:18:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N45ZKH31K000U1UQ@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N43Q7ZZWTS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:18:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:13:33 +0000" <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N45ZKF5YYO00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > no, not at all > i'll explain at more length what i meant > the draft does not allow xml from other namespaces within sieve > fragments. for example (assuming sieve is the default namespace and > mix is some other namespace), the following is excluded by the current > draft schema: > <control name="if"> > <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> > <test name="header"> > <tag>is</tag> > <str>Sender</str> > <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> > </test> > <action name="fileinto"> > <str>filter</str> > </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> > </control> > does my comment make sense now? Nope. First of all, it simply isn't true: The <displaydata> element is defined as an xsd:any without a namespace attribute (which defaults to ##any, meaning any namespace is allowed) and with a processContents attribute set to skip, meaning no schema is required for anything inside. So your example can be written: <control name="if"> <displaydata> <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> </displaydata> <test name="header"> <tag>is</tag> <str>Sender</str> <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> </test> <action name="fileinto"> <str>filter</str> </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> </control> and be schema-valid. (Actually, I cheated a little here - the schema in the current draft has a bug where it is missing displaydata and displayblock in the first choice in the command type definition. This has to be fixed for the above to validate. But this has nothing to do with the use or non-use of other namespaces.) Now, perhaps your objection is that you have to use displaydata containers in order to embed material from other namespaces and you don't want to have to do that. If so, that's easily remedied by adding some <xsd:any namespace="##other" processContents="lax"/> directives. The equivalent in Relax is something like: any = element * { mixed { ( any | attribute * { text } )* } } extelements = element * - ( local:* | sieve:* ) { any }* extattributes = attribute * - ( local:* | sieve:* ) { text }* extnodes = ( extattributes extelements) So I guess the question for the group here is what extensibility model do we really want here? Do we want to require enclosure of material from other XML sources in displaydata blocks, or do we want to allow other stuff to appear without such blocks as long as it's in another namespace? Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BADkCu036441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:13:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0BADkkD036440; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:13:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.240]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0BADYRB036415 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:13:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11571702rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:13:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=ewP0sb0uCjoBhX+KJ+u3/qVaA+ax4ibtRtBFMg1+Awk=; b=PEQECPLYxGwLqze3OBO5z7OJGtUQY3ZeoOlDw2uSi6rM6SBlDTgwLBXB2WPCdplCR+ A/8QozgadFOX0COyOwApivYqzW6z4ppP6p0ToIqO0LrmN/QHT1jXEtg7aim10URqbU+z mhnucOC9amghmGDaC1KttUonjhBfTOgPYO+YA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=k91cyjgxd63oj2vcGs+zotj1tafxhXIMmJ8ChxTDxSNAnUi79Qp7Rbzyy/YvdMv4z2 nYRlaW9dila/DmH7GF08DnCDtkM3bAFyupDn5cg8r5eOZfnrwiU/QilCUjmvqXn6s7yh 9Hhc1Y1PqIksS0p4VKamMqX1qghrMK1I2nITE= Received: by 10.114.60.19 with SMTP id i19mr18208977waa.62.1231668814030; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.126.11 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:13:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901110213g43a646c4ke6e1672489be04bd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:13:33 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 1:18 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Alexey Melnikov writes: >> >> > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be >> >> > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically >> >> > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I >> >> > don't think the document needs another namespace. >> > >> >> Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular >> >> foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, >> >> then that should be illustrated in an example or two. >> > >> > I certainly want to allow that - indeed, I don't know of a way to disallow >> > it. >> > But I don't want to require this approach. > >> AFACT the current draft does not allow mixing of namespaces > > Say what? All the current draft does is define a way to represent Sieve scripts > in XML. Nowhere does it specify how the resulting representation is to be used. > It could be used as a standalone thing where a given XML object only contains > Sieve content and nothing else. Or it could be used to embed Sieve material > inside of some more general sort of XML content (of course using namespaces to > keep things clear) - which in fact is exactly one of the ways we're using it. > > You appear to be confusing this specification with others the IETF has done > that use XML as part of defining a protocol, e.g., XMPP. In such cases where > the goal is specifically for clients and servers written by different people to > be able to interoperate and that means there have to be tight constraints on > what can appear on the wire. no, not at all i'll explain at more length what i meant the draft does not allow xml from other namespaces within sieve fragments. for example (assuming sieve is the default namespace and mix is some other namespace), the following is excluded by the current draft schema: <control name="if"> <mix:editor-specific foo='bar'></mix:editor-specific> <test name="header"> <tag>is</tag> <str>Sender</str> <str>owner-ietf-mta-filters@imc.org</str> </test> <action name="fileinto"> <str>filter</str> </action> <comment>move to "filter" mailbox</comment> </control> does my comment make sense now? - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0B2TOr9015952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:29:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0B2TOqW015951; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:29:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0B2TB4d015937 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:29:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N452FUIL0W00W2FK@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N43Q7ZZWTS00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:29:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:18:40 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:03:03 +0000" <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N452FS1U8O00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be > >> > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically > >> > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I > >> > don't think the document needs another namespace. > > > >> Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular > >> foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, > >> then that should be illustrated in an example or two. > > > > I certainly want to allow that - indeed, I don't know of a way to disallow > > it. > > But I don't want to require this approach. > AFACT the current draft does not allow mixing of namespaces Say what? All the current draft does is define a way to represent Sieve scripts in XML. Nowhere does it specify how the resulting representation is to be used. It could be used as a standalone thing where a given XML object only contains Sieve content and nothing else. Or it could be used to embed Sieve material inside of some more general sort of XML content (of course using namespaces to keep things clear) - which in fact is exactly one of the ways we're using it. You appear to be confusing this specification with others the IETF has done that use XML as part of defining a protocol, e.g., XMPP. In such cases where the goal is specifically for clients and servers written by different people to be able to interoperate and that means there have to be tight constraints on what can appear on the wire. Sieve-in-XML is not a protocol or service. It is at most a tool someone can use in building a protocol or service that needs to operate on Sieve content. Exactly how it would be used to, say, have a Javascript-based Sieve editor fetch and return Sieve content from a central server would require considerable elaboration beyond what's already there. (This would be true even if XML were not involved - I would expect in many cases for applications to require certain Sieve extensions be supported and possibly be unable to deal with some others.) Here's a concrete example of how this might play out. Suppose we decide to define an extension to the managesieve protocol to allow clients to fetch and store sieves using the XML representaation. In addition to the usual rigamarole of having to specify the extension name, new commands or arguments, and so on, such an extension would have to specify exactly what sort of XML would be used. Are namespaces allowed? Required? Can other content be included in the XML or is it forbidden? I actually toyed with the idea of including a managesieve extension in this specification for fetching and returning XML. I eventually decided against it because I was concerned that we might run into the problems that have plagued similar specifications in the past, most notably the abortive attempt to define XCal, an XML representation of iCal. To the extent such specificastions look like they are attempting to replace an original format with an XML-based one, there has been opposition from people who are not, shall we say, believers in the XML religion. This is also the reason I avoided coining any sort of cute name for this like XSieve. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AIKxOj098897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:20:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0AIKxXX098896; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:20:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.178]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AIKm4g098851 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:20:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j32so5718146waf.26 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:20:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=dnh/kVnWs6GoAmD2xvbQ4x1u3bB39BcYcKaOLjMbtL0=; b=wegRCU3fzGxfH16OnFXZwroCNJXW9IlWqQww9jyecJ3638pqvNk+YbJabJxUrhNJGU qGGU/ZdXKYp47+dU1q3yX5SbKXZxj0NNMj7e8jgYaggyfUBlfh3Ptn/BJHm2/Dfat6na mlaBx3KsspbHrcfLDXzTeZkXjS1J/2nPGLeCc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=wQIxPwCNh6dPmh63pFLcVDq+IDPfsgi7BVTw4Po2v80EenJtC8rp00zi5r/IFMspT0 t9JimoCzoNeq6na4HSJ/6DxINO8JMlWOSJsuRcmD09K87h6RGmnw1WWST/oh2fQMs8vX 9gO+oNeCo9hi37fqAvZR3sTRKgLRVEaQBrwxY= Received: by 10.114.59.1 with SMTP id h1mr16054320waa.87.1231611648143; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.126.11 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:20:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901101020i7f12bce7j8d22748b596285a9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:20:48 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> > > however (in my experience) the generative tools commonly used for XML >> > > and web service binding, and editor generation tend not to offer good >> > > relax support. IMO the draft should offer secondary informative XML >> > > Schema or Schemata to assist developers using these tools. > >> > The problem is that the unique particle attribution limitation in XML Schema >> > effectively precludes using it without some compromises. I am therefore opposed >> > to continuing to include it. > >> adopting a standard prefix - sieve, say - is all that is required > > To get around the unique particle attribution restriction that prevents XML > Schema from describing many legitimate schemata? If that's truly the case a lot > of XML developers would love to hear more. > >> is this really too much to ask? > > I fail to see what defining a prefix has to do with the use or non-use of XML > Schema, but for about the tenth time, I have already added a namespace name > registration to the specification. > > AFAIK the specific namespace prefix that gets bound to the namespace name is > not something that can or should be standardized. Rather, it is declared on a > per-document basis using an xmlns attribute. Any agent out there that supports > namespaces should support the use of xmlns to pick whatever prefix a given > document binds to the urn:ietf:params:xml:sieve namespace. this choice of namespace prefix is the root cause of incompatibility between namespace aware and unaware parsers for example, 'sieve:abc' is just a name to unaware parsers while aware parsers understand this as a namespace prefix and a local part. the namespace prefix is resolved to a URI and that is used as the basis of comparison. specifing a standard prefix (for example, sieve) ensures that in both cases equality works as expected. <snip> >> for the class of application (enterprise mail servers is a name that's >> sometimes used but quite possibly that's not familiar to others in the >> group), unfortunately it is > > Robert, developing enterprise and ISP class mail servers is what I do for a > living. I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So I think this is something > I might know just a little bit about. i am not unaware of your background but i fail to see why i should respect your arguments when you are so clearly uninformed about a class of mail server which are almost a decade old now > But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it or not, > Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at or around > the time of final delivery. > The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may > be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of the work > this group is chartered to do. is this http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sieve-charter.html the charter? - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AI3Emw098039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:03:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0AI3EG8098038; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:03:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.242]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AI33aa098030 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:03:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11214232rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:03:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=ha1xH+KM9Ln23pIw8SRZb8HAUUaEAX4SC5UPhY1tWcA=; b=NrB9mpR5E5/o9SzSf4hR/5tE7uLMHB2oe6y62gTotqoAPvJbM6jQfkF/45Llzcfkos 55fnHsz50AqilmCpv3fl6cHYTIfIepsrfotqMbXpMwBrJw1yAj8wvRnNV1KK9USH1gc5 FzAtosUURC6K0do5fVhiKWvgQ2b6A+pSjJuL4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=jQ/g9LcSoaFZ8idGXqosMZrv1Og48d5GPLm2VYNsOdfZqzhtyKfa4rpwb3isbfxMdN 0c2JlhGBSDfBHBexHF+33Hbk4LZJJeHzEfQQyHpEjkcW+8K8F5H2yoxnNjs0LaOyyvbi BYk1khUAH7arXibb5zjZQjeLejsEhgsNdJxfE= Received: by 10.114.211.1 with SMTP id j1mr17757401wag.176.1231610583357; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.126.11 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:03:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901101003g5d17df85y270b4afbef54e72b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:03:03 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > > >> Alexey Melnikov writes: >> > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be >> > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically >> > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I >> > don't think the document needs another namespace. > >> Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular >> foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, >> then that should be illustrated in an example or two. > > I certainly want to allow that - indeed, I don't know of a way to disallow > it. > But I don't want to require this approach. AFACT the current draft does not allow mixing of namespaces - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AI0ZCI097953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:00:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0AI0ZY7097952; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:00:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.179]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AI0NrN097945 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:00:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j32so5714251waf.26 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=g7AHO3RoxZQ1Q4GNm0d1DOyYio+qNlaciVn0s4cC4GI=; b=Pi5E8SUttEpgCMMnfbXlIdcyOr5npRXp7aUgF4swhPw/VWnMLAg6Hall7pq5OuLVLz 1thZMOFxd9LAhi0Juto6zaHt7aZquqY1ZXqbbmi/scpBlFawSJbtJSXFufY/0hC5+Yd7 SkIta2ETDhSiVMQ5Mi2os/+JeoxvUKofXNe+M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=vJjUNkT5q7s2j0rIkP5TUotosi704Z/xZf0PZOdzkZMyoPaaIl81EgYZ5e10hrDkI6 AmG0RZS4UozXpXUiOIvfkHpmS07C8ceVSEf8lB3j32K3XLOEmWKJKPwxca0wi+/1yFag teSHv0F6nAy2BzvgO9xFUNlq4XzVE1t92IenQ= Received: by 10.115.22.1 with SMTP id z1mr17729134wai.216.1231610423318; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.126.11 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901101000tb9456c9if0acf224da509603@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:00:23 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote: > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > [...] >> >> > 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains. >> > mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to >> > be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern >> > generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the >> > specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be >> > needed for these use cases. >> I take this to mean that you want separate namespaces for annotations and >> sieve >> proper. I'm against this because I dislike the complexity it adds, which I >> see >> as unnecessary. And unless there's some evidence of support for your view >> from >> other quarters I'm not going to revisit this. > > > Excuse my ignorance, but I fail to see why it would be necessary to use a > different namespace for Sieve comments. Programs that interpret Sieve from > XML representation would just ignore such elements. Programs that generate > XML representation automatically (e.g. from some rule based UI) are unlikely > to generate them anyway. for generative web services, i agree that this is mainly annoying and inelegant. however, a library which claims compatibility would need to deal with them if they are mandatory which would is a PITA. > Am I missing some use using eclipse (for example) it's possible to generate an editor from a schema. mixing the domains means that the annotations will appear as editable to the user. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AHqP1j097729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:52:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n0AHqPYI097728; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:52:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.249]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0AHqEg5097715 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:52:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so11209749rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=+K76u72tb6jnmLv0ol+a951eLRACQdn8xsxgx/bNCe4=; b=uWKDORR6XAzJich7mR0cr32wHobkQyMs2KGZpXjDXKQiaxoKddUsccTdDNpS6LSAl9 iNWrcDUzuP1sqWm2O6eAaMivdCMmjwBMggyg4+mxkscDr5XwqVax05opMPw5XcOlDp5U Pe2OR+O6i6W+pWnkBE0kBmtaZE2wSPfEGnvkw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=fBA5UmRsjwtcXOE2x35hxctBgf61HE+LY2EbvswOBb4NpBJrGm0atdglBKzhsHTimC 4Iexth+Bca3yAjzMBpNv1frcJp7twhh/zE/Yqz2ALdvaZ9VNFZMbW9+uAnntenQE8VLR LbGTR2teVG9jzBgzyJQv7bHizKzkx/QI0JhAc= Received: by 10.114.148.2 with SMTP id v2mr12255959wad.169.1231609933840; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.126.11 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901100952q8e5e0fex6b99e9c137ec4021@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:52:13 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> (i'm unlikely to contribute to a flawed specification unless there is >> some hope that it will be fixed) > > First of all, there is no such thing as a perfect specification; they are all > flawed to some extent. It's the nature of the beast. > > Second, and perhaps more to the point, we demand rough consensus on > specifications, nothing more. I could probably list a couple of things I'm > unhappy about or don't agree with in any specification I've participated in > developing, and for the major ones I can easily list a dozen issues or more. > Once more this is the nature of the beast. But the fact that I didn't agree > with the consensus on some points - and in some cases on many points - didn't > prevent me from contributing to those efforts. thanks for the explaination we're currently adding xml serialisation for jsieve over at apache. there are number of concrete use cases that this serialisation needs to satisfy. the current draft is currently unsatisfactory so we'll probably just need to go ahead and create a competing standard. i think this would be a shame. my experience on this group hasn't exactly been pleasent for me (thankfully most of the name calling has been in private). there don't seem to be very many other implementators on this list with my background so i'm consistently in a monority of one here. i'm unlikely to waste energy contributing to a competing standard. >> using XML Schema as the formal definition means that decisions have to >> be taken which are forced by the language which would not be required >> by an alternative formal method. > > Which is now irrelevant since we're not using XML Schema any more. > >> 1. a decision will be needed to either use the default namespace or >> another namespace. this will mean either sacrificing user who are >> still using parsers from the 1990s or sacrificing those who need >> explicit namespacing. > > Perhaps I don't understand what you're after here, but since the specification > now defines a namespace this also appears to me to be irrelevant. to maintain compatibility between namespace aware and unaware parsers this is necessary but not sufficient. also required is a standard prefix. >> 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains. >> mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to >> be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern >> generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the >> specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be >> needed for these use cases. > > I take this to mean that you want separate namespaces for annotations and sieve > proper. I'm against this because I dislike the complexity it adds, which I see > as unnecessary. And unless there's some evidence of support for your view from > other quarters I'm not going to revisit this. without correct separation of concerns, the specification cannot be used for generation. for developers working in modern langauges using modern toolsets, this is a major limitation. it just means that another standard will be required to support these use cases. making support for annotations optional would be good enough for me. ideally, i would like to see any mixture of XML allowed by the specification. this would allow editors based on different principles to claim support without having to adopt the recommended system of annotations. >> ATM lack of namespace support and a failure to separate the concerns >> in the design of schema means that the specification is useless to me >> and many other developers using modern, namespace aware tools. by >> applying methods used in other RFCs facing these issues, it should be >> possible to create a specification suitable for both legacy and modern >> tooling. > > I'm afraid I just don't see it. The pointers you have given so far have been to > specifications I regard as overdesigned to the point of near unreadability. in the xml community, these specifications are usually held in high regard. it's just surprisingly hard to explain that it works just how you'd hope it would. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08MdJS0077294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:39:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n08MdJXg077293; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:39:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n08Md8IY077283 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:39:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N421S97PUO00P1WB@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N40ZGWJ6JK00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:07:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:27:34 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:57:51 +0000" <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N41Q9BQSU800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <493E908E.70504@isode.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > > > however (in my experience) the generative tools commonly used for XML > > > and web service binding, and editor generation tend not to offer good > > > relax support. IMO the draft should offer secondary informative XML > > > Schema or Schemata to assist developers using these tools. > > The problem is that the unique particle attribution limitation in XML Schema > > effectively precludes using it without some compromises. I am therefore opposed > > to continuing to include it. > adopting a standard prefix - sieve, say - is all that is required To get around the unique particle attribution restriction that prevents XML Schema from describing many legitimate schemata? If that's truly the case a lot of XML developers would love to hear more. > is this really too much to ask? I fail to see what defining a prefix has to do with the use or non-use of XML Schema, but for about the tenth time, I have already added a namespace name registration to the specification. AFAIK the specific namespace prefix that gets bound to the namespace name is not something that can or should be standardized. Rather, it is declared on a per-document basis using an xmlns attribute. Any agent out there that supports namespaces should support the use of xmlns to pick whatever prefix a given document binds to the urn:ietf:params:xml:sieve namespace. > >> > But I'm sitll a little confused as to what you're asking for here. If you're > >> > asking for removal of the explicit inline XML syntax examples in favor of a > >> > more abstract approach, I'd be fine with that if there's a WG consensus to make > >> > such a change. > > > >> no - i'm very happy with the syntax examples > > > >> i would like to see the approach used in RFC 5023 (and others) > >> adopted, adding a normative description of the XML and making the > >> schema only informative. > > > > Personally, I find RFC 5023 approach, like the XOPEN object descriptions it's > > similar to, to be almost totally unreadable. Maybe it's the only reasonable way > > to do it when the element structure is quite complex, but that's not the case > > here. > > > > So, absent some fairly strong support for this from others in the group, I'm > > not going to pursue this. > is there anyone else in group - excepting you and myself - who cares > enough to contribute at all to this discussion? Well, quite a few people have cared enough to discuss other aspects of this document in the past, and now that the topic of comment mapping has come up a number are joining in again. In other words, it seems people care about the document, just not about most of the issues you have raised. > for the class of application (enterprise mail servers is a name that's > sometimes used but quite possibly that's not familiar to others in the > group), unfortunately it is Robert, developing enterprise and ISP class mail servers is what I do for a living. I've been doing it for over 20 years now. So I think this is something I might know just a little bit about. But really, this entire discussion has gone very far afield. Like it or not, Sieve is intended to be a language used to process email messages at or around the time of final delivery. The fact that it can be adapted for other uses may be interesting to you but simply is not relevant in the context of the work this group is chartered to do. I am therefore not going to continue to respond further to this discussion of what applications developers do or do not need to know about email and the specifics of header and envelpe handling. In fact I regret having continued the discussion to this point. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07KBZlW098335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:11:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07KBZFN098334; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:11:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07KBOfu098324 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:11:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cyrus@daboo.name) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0681410936E4; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:11:24 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.mulberrymail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uIh7tsqfV4Bu; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.101.32.44]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3235F10936DD; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:11:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:11:18 -0500 From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Message-ID: <87AC2A2AAE7E3D263362AB24@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=990 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi Ned, --On January 7, 2009 11:38:02 AM -0800 Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular >> foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, >> then that should be illustrated in an example or two. > > I certainly want to allow that - indeed, I don't know of a way to > disallow it. > But I don't want to require this approach. > > It also occurs to me that as a practical matter, a lot of Sieve generators > produce what amounts to a list of rules. (Our implementation works this > way.) > Perhaps an example of a "rule list" sieve done first with the built in > annotation capabilities and then again using the separate namespace > approach > would be helpful. Thoughts? Could this be done in an Appendix that lists some current common practice with sieve scripts and how that might be re-worked for XML? I don't think it needs to be part of the main body of the spec. -- Cyrus Daboo Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07Jg4rH096520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:42:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07Jg4Fo096519; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:42:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07JfpFq096506 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:42:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N40HBV0AZK00O1BW@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N40EOY1N1S00007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:41:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:38:02 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:59:33 +0100" <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N40HBTLOJ800007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Alexey Melnikov writes: > > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be > > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically > > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I > > don't think the document needs another namespace. > Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular > foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, > then that should be illustrated in an example or two. I certainly want to allow that - indeed, I don't know of a way to disallow it. But I don't want to require this approach. It also occurs to me that as a practical matter, a lot of Sieve generators produce what amounts to a list of rules. (Our implementation works this way.) Perhaps an example of a "rule list" sieve done first with the built in annotation capabilities and then again using the separate namespace approach would be helpful. Thoughts? Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07Fqr4x084486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:52:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07FqrU7084485; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:52:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-out1.uio.no (mail-out1.uio.no [129.240.10.57]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07Fqekh084470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:52:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx5.uio.no ([129.240.10.46]) by mail-out1.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>) id 1LKahz-0006kq-H1; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:52:39 +0100 Received: from feh.linpro.no ([87.238.42.45]) by mail-mx5.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) user kjetilho (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>) id 1LKahy-00085a-WB; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:52:39 +0100 Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> Reply-To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:52:36 +0100 Message-Id: <1231343556.29162.21.camel@feh.linpro.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 (2.22.3.1-1.fc9) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: CE6EA58D733F2B67DCF4DEB3ED965AA0B0835186 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 87.238.42.45 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 200 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 1 total 135 max/h 3 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 15:59 +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be > > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically > > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I > > don't think the document needs another namespace. > > Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular > foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, > then that should be illustrated in an example or two. I think that it's bad to make the XML representation more expressive than the basic Sieve language. we can't have two types of comments in XML Sieve, and just one type in plain Sieve. if we want to cater for "magic comments", we should make a mechanism for it in Sieve itself. one way would be to add a new "action", like "meta" UP-TO-DATE TOKEN TEXT where UP-TO-DATE is a boolean, TOKEN is a unique identifier (e.g. domainname of the implementer, I wouldn't want an IANA registry), and TEXT is opaque information. the specification should say that the "meta" is attached to the next non-"meta" statement, and if that statement changes semantic meaning, UP-TO-DATE for unknown TOKENs should be set to FALSE. if a statement is removed, all "meta" statements associated with it should be removed as well. (I only spent five minutes on this "spec", so take it for what it's worth ;-) -- regards, Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07ExgPZ081191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:59:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07ExgWL081190; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:59:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07ExUpD081177 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:59:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BCE4AC44; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:59:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1231340370-64703-1/6/6 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:59:30 +0100 Message-Id: <PCbmC+s//kiDjc43KauGHA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:59:33 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Alexey Melnikov writes: > If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be > in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically > implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I > don't think the document needs another namespace. Each generator may want to use a namespace of its own for its particular foo. I am not an expert in this. If that's considered good XML taste, then that should be illustrated in an example or two. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07E5O87078573 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:05:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07E5OmA078572; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:05:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.173]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07E5DxM078554 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:05:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 25so8402392wfc.28 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:05:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=TaSwGwQf5qZNX17/dgkN47a/jtmYdGR4AhFpzs/5Fpg=; b=nLqv6hptNCFDYMFUiGHIo2tiUal38DMeHY+jPsWCvnriNR98EWKfTMyKMMBuQd9Hv5 sQatAE4FE0wwwgbvg9+cPWteHPrMUS5WCKYntDtuFmL+dQtv8DHyKEABor+ZMUBCQ36T +5/Ld152qBrc8DO4KpZACe8rIW52KZPi0QxDM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=KeAnr6n9RJ/FJOzXnHcGN9YZRQISMfEdFrzpVZM2/1BcEY9bCCafY4li7pHpbk+sbj 4L+kbVnPMqkRca4T5w01IbZR3HsxHQ46g6Fa3olFcpOfPvr90KyxQ+WBSgfQhtAwtXlb H9fm9ESGHBfNX+ghSItsf0wv4dTAs9CBky1eU= Received: by 10.142.164.10 with SMTP id m10mr9670069wfe.27.1231337113543; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.42.15 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 06:05:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29d3c4cb0901070605p4048c78do3a9f35c8b36ac552@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:05:13 +0100 From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_310886_29301460.1231337113532" References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8d81d72a36a8a108 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> ------=_Part_310886_29301460.1231337113532 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>wrote: > Alexey Melnikov writes: > >> Programs that generate XML representation automatically (e.g. from some >> rule based UI) are unlikely to generate them anyway. >> > Uhm. Programs do generate sieve comments, typically containing magic syntax > specific to the generator. > > Am I missing some use cases? >> > > I think the draft would do well to suggest how magic generator-specific > syntax ought to be handled, with an example or two. Magic stuff should not > be syntactically similar to a sieve comment. +1. If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I don't think the document needs another namespace. ------=_Part_310886_29301460.1231337113532 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no">arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <div class="Ih2E3d">Alexey Melnikov writes:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Programs that generate XML representation automatically (e.g. from some rule based UI) are unlikely to generate them anyway.<br> </blockquote></div>Uhm. Programs do generate sieve comments, typically containing magic syntax specific to the generator. <br><br> <div class="Ih2E3d"> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Am I missing some use cases?<br></blockquote><br></div>I think the draft would do well to suggest how magic generator-specific syntax ought to be handled, with an example or two. Magic stuff should not be syntactically similar to a sieve comment.</blockquote> <div>+1.</div> <div> </div> <div>If we want to allow for magic comments, it make sense for them to be in a separate namespace. But then magic comments are typically implementation specific. So I unless we want to startadize them, I don't think the document needs another namespace.</div> <div> </div></div> ------=_Part_310886_29301460.1231337113532-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07ChdPn073513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 05:43:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07Chdc0073512; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 05:43:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07Cha9e073503 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 05:43:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319034AC44; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:43:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from arnt@oryx.com (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com (Archiveopteryx 3.1.0) with esmtp id 1231332215-64703-1/6/5 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:43:35 +0100 Message-Id: <0XUGjMdUgNiZDRONMxbEsA.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:43:39 +0100 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Alexey Melnikov writes: > Programs that generate XML representation automatically (e.g. from > some rule based UI) are unlikely to generate them anyway. Uhm. Programs do generate sieve comments, typically containing magic syntax specific to the generator. > Am I missing some use cases? I think the draft would do well to suggest how magic generator-specific syntax ought to be handled, with an example or two. Magic stuff should not be syntactically similar to a sieve comment. Arnt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n07874qt057183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2009 01:07:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n07874Ig057182; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 01:07:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com (rv-out-0708.google.com [209.85.198.243]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n0786qTF057158 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 01:07:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lunohod.baikonur@googlemail.com) Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c5so9108375rvf.34 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:06:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=AvAQ8eyP+izLGFFppLI9ei1uvZXJ0wOxMVJhjRdX2e4=; b=GueVLkksGNBlYuYB9oyYwXLauLK0jk8/rlubNmsM0DwiyFbxEqfpAjcGep1/P1zVnj bjvXi/cVP52g1/shqZcdl2iTleQT7zxlzST75txXxMHXFjaFAcW5zBJzTWtYFoh/1pr1 39V/qkgzD4bEc6GTYWFlipP1yDk5/FJxYEtcY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=g09KsBPWA20vW/XZyJTHjQxnSLeaP7Dy3Zv4Evdxq8jIhU3PHgPG9aKKZgn4BVy1F8 RPVKL4KycuWSeU3hksbe2rRhBS97hJ8kKvyFiN+fjvkZBT13OZ9cT4mZW9JQZL9A4rlu ezuXwpm+/NIj+VLTz61E6WxWouyA4I3JEv6z8= Received: by 10.142.156.19 with SMTP id d19mr9536910wfe.289.1231315612546; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.42.15 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:06:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <29d3c4cb0901070006i7bfc8f3cy907ba65d91ffd39e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:06:52 +0100 From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> To: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com>, "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_306215_10019195.1231315612539" References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 02fe873feae6b1fb Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> ------=_Part_306215_10019195.1231315612539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: [...] > > 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains. > > mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to > > be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern > > generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the > > specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be > > needed for these use cases. > I take this to mean that you want separate namespaces for annotations and > sieve > proper. I'm against this because I dislike the complexity it adds, which I > see > as unnecessary. And unless there's some evidence of support for your view > from > other quarters I'm not going to revisit this. Excuse my ignorance, but I fail to see why it would be necessary to use a different namespace for Sieve comments. Programs that interpret Sieve from XML representation would just ignore such elements. Programs that generate XML representation automatically (e.g. from some rule based UI) are unlikely to generate them anyway. Am I missing some use cases? ------=_Part_306215_10019195.1231315612539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Ned Freed <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ned.freed@mrochek.com">ned.freed@mrochek.com</a>></span> wrote:</div> <div class="gmail_quote"> [...]<br></div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <div class="Ih2E3d">> 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains.<br>> mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to<br>> be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern<br> > generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the<br>> specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be<br>> needed for these use cases.<br></div>I take this to mean that you want separate namespaces for annotations and sieve<br> proper. I'm against this because I dislike the complexity it adds, which I see<br>as unnecessary. And unless there's some evidence of support for your view from<br>other quarters I'm not going to revisit this.</blockquote> <div> </div> <div>Excuse my ignorance, but I fail to see why it would be necessary to use a different namespace for Sieve comments. Programs that interpret Sieve from XML representation would just ignore such elements. Programs that generate XML representation automatically (e.g. from some rule based UI) are unlikely to generate them anyway.<br> </div> <div>Am I missing some use cases?</div> <div> </div> ------=_Part_306215_10019195.1231315612539-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n073b03f045746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:37:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n073b0cT045745; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:37:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n073am7P045733 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:36:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N3ZJMCKL5S00VJNK@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01N3V14BSTE800007A@mauve.mrochek.com>; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:36:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:07:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:01:57 +0000" <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> To: Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Message-id: <01N3ZJMB3Y6M00007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <493E908E.70504@isode.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > (i'm unlikely to contribute to a flawed specification unless there is > some hope that it will be fixed) First of all, there is no such thing as a perfect specification; they are all flawed to some extent. It's the nature of the beast. Second, and perhaps more to the point, we demand rough consensus on specifications, nothing more. I could probably list a couple of things I'm unhappy about or don't agree with in any specification I've participated in developing, and for the major ones I can easily list a dozen issues or more. Once more this is the nature of the beast. But the fact that I didn't agree with the consensus on some points - and in some cases on many points - didn't prevent me from contributing to those efforts. > using XML Schema as the formal definition means that decisions have to > be taken which are forced by the language which would not be required > by an alternative formal method. Which is now irrelevant since we're not using XML Schema any more. > 1. a decision will be needed to either use the default namespace or > another namespace. this will mean either sacrificing user who are > still using parsers from the 1990s or sacrificing those who need > explicit namespacing. Perhaps I don't understand what you're after here, but since the specification now defines a namespace this also appears to me to be irrelevant. > 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains. > mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to > be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern > generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the > specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be > needed for these use cases. I take this to mean that you want separate namespaces for annotations and sieve proper. I'm against this because I dislike the complexity it adds, which I see as unnecessary. And unless there's some evidence of support for your view from other quarters I'm not going to revisit this. > ATM lack of namespace support and a failure to separate the concerns > in the design of schema means that the specification is useless to me > and many other developers using modern, namespace aware tools. by > applying methods used in other RFCs facing these issues, it should be > possible to create a specification suitable for both legacy and modern > tooling. I'm afraid I just don't see it. The pointers you have given so far have been to specifications I regard as overdesigned to the point of near unreadability. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n070vt7M037721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:57:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n070vtui037720; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:57:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n070vq21037712 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:57:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so15349620bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:57:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=gx759oNeARk68IptmnT18/Q2alpoAwJiARIQIywUeiA=; b=xzzXU77a6ohEHIa2h7mH6y8cwDPe+P3i3b1lF0koMHJm1TCOZkxppy0/OTdbneEt0T yWyU2sLq87MrbafFg2DhmWetvSFNY6LOvaP21jdLimLguF67cVFkocIV84bxQKbfkbBX ih9eqRqcQGQ8r5QWg6v3TR1IX9H7ROZvPezxg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=hjLYj6w7K8Uvqa+QSRGh1IvoZZ5tlzwCM73OL+6F2skY2z56pFXiNiVm0gPkerNKvC vUapPrSHKHP3i5XYJAJR45ZwknNLymreOnArjuYFyR80SRSsfmt4hbs3AA1lXe3vwPvM 0/du/9MSv01w3LnGn5c2ONFQZ2Hgway+pZQ2Q= Received: by 10.181.224.3 with SMTP id b3mr8689319bkr.183.1231289871873; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:57:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901061657g3aa2d63dwcdbee2ae91b3bbda@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:57:51 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <493E908E.70504@isode.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> wrote: >> >> >> i note that the draft describes the infoset rather than defining it in >> >> >> the standard way. is there a reason for this decision? >> >> > >> >> > I don't know what "the standard way" is you're referring to. Perhaps you >> >> > could provide a reference to an RFC where this has been used? >> > >> >> AIUI XML is maintained by w3c (rather than IEFT) so is a >> >> recommendation. http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/ is the current >> >> document. >> > >> > Quite true, however, the IETF has its own specification for XML is supposed to >> > be used in RFCs: RFC 3470. And while infosets are mentioned as one approach to >> > specifying things about an XML format, there's no recommendation, let alone >> > requirement, that they be used. >> > >> >> > This document is a little unusual in that it's defining a mapping of, if you >> >> > will, a non-XML infoset onto XML. As such, the natural approach seemed to be to >> >> > first discuss the structure of the language being mapped, then explain the >> >> > mapping, and finish up with additional unique-to-XML semantics. >> > >> >> i agree that most of this arangement is natural. it's just jumping to >> >> a schema seems - to me - a little premature and inflexible. >> > >> > First of all, the use of XML Schema is in fact too inflexible to be allowed >> > to continue. The next revision will use Relax instead. > >> XML schema is flexible but the flexibility comes at the price of >> readability. one of relax variants would be a better choice. > >> however (in my experience) the generative tools commonly used for XML >> and web service binding, and editor generation tend not to offer good >> relax support. IMO the draft should offer secondary informative XML >> Schema or Schemata to assist developers using these tools. > > The problem is that the unique particle attribution limitation in XML Schema > effectively precludes using it without some compromises. I am therefore opposed > to continuing to include it. adopting a standard prefix - sieve, say - is all that is required is this really too much to ask? >> > But I'm sitll a little confused as to what you're asking for here. If you're >> > asking for removal of the explicit inline XML syntax examples in favor of a >> > more abstract approach, I'd be fine with that if there's a WG consensus to make >> > such a change. > >> no - i'm very happy with the syntax examples > >> i would like to see the approach used in RFC 5023 (and others) >> adopted, adding a normative description of the XML and making the >> schema only informative. > > Personally, I find RFC 5023 approach, like the XOPEN object descriptions it's > similar to, to be almost totally unreadable. Maybe it's the only reasonable way > to do it when the element structure is quite complex, but that's not the case > here. > > So, absent some fairly strong support for this from others in the group, I'm > not going to pursue this. is there anyone else in group - excepting you and myself - who cares enough to contribute at all to this discussion? >> >> sieve). there is a large and growing requirement for integration >> >> between mail and enterprise systems (typically coding in Java and .NET >> >> but also ruby and python). developers from enterprise backgrounds are >> >> typically strong on web+xml but very weak on mail. >> > >> > Yep, I've seen a lot of this as well. And the problem emcompasses far more than >> > Sieve: For example, a lot of people who are unfamiliar with email don't >> > understand very basic concepts such as the separation between envelope and >> > message content. (This particular issue actually pokes through into Sieve in >> > the form of whether an envelope or header test is appropriate.) > >> i beg to differ slightly on this one > >> some enterprise mail processing may happen during the SMTP transaction >> but it is more typical for the mail processing after storage. not all >> mail stored arrives through SMTP and so it is typical for any envelope >> information to be reduced to simple MIME headers. > > Robert, with all due respect, you may have substantial expertise on the XML > front, but your comments here are actually doing little more than illustrate > the validity of my argument that there's a general issue with people not > getting how email works that isn't going to get fixed by anything we do here. ned - with all due respect - your comments illustrate a lack of understanding of this class of mail server > If you want this addressed the place to look is the email architecure > specifications being worked on by Dave Crocker. > > And it is NOT typical for envelope information to be stored as headers. for the class of application (enterprise mail servers is a name that's sometimes used but quite possibly that's not familiar to others in the group), unfortunately it is > There are several reasons for this: > > (1) Envelopes only exist between the time of submission and final delivery. > Transport actions do record certain bits of envelope information in > trace header fields and final delivery is supposed to copy some additional > envelope information into a couple of header fields, but these are NOT > a message envelope and it is mistake to assume they are. > > (2) During the time the envelope exists it is highy mutable, often changing > form at every hop. This makes header storage of envelope information > somewhat problematic. true > (3) There are several SMTP extension that add to the envelope in various ways, > requiring negotiation of what envelope information can and cannot be > passed from one system to another. This tends to interact badly with > schemes that store envelope information as a static part of the message. (when SMTP delivery is just the first step in mail processing, this isn't such a problem) > (4) The fact that protocols other than SMTP are used for various email > operations doesn't necessarily impact header/envelope separability. > Other protocols maintain this separation and at least one of them, X.400, > actually has a far greater degree of separation than SMTP does. (not all protocol maintain this separation and if any mail enters through those protocols, this information will not be available) > (5) Because there are effectively no controls on what ends up in headers, it > is fairly easy for the separation between "header" headers and "envelope" > headers to get lost. Among other things, this can create serious > security vulnerabilities. (only during SMTP delivery ) > Now, this is not to say there aren't various ad-hoc schemes in use where active > envelope information ends up getting stuffed into the header. Such schemes date > back to BITNET's use of X-Envelope-To: to work around the 8x8 limit and > probably long before. But in my experience at least these things invariably > fail to provide a full and correct mapping for all of the possible information > that can exist in an SMTP (or X.400) envelope. And as a consequence they > invariably cause problems because of their inability to truly express envelope > semantics. > > Indeed, if you have to capture envelope information in a static form - the main > current use-case for this is compliance archiving - in most cases you're better > off NOT using header-based schemes. We even have a standard format defined for > this: Batch SMTP. Although the format that's probably used the most is the one > Exchange generates that they call "envelope journaling", which puts the > envelope in the first text part of a MIME multipart. (On a side note, if anyone > knows where there's a precise and complete specification of the syntax used for > envelope journaling, I've appreciate a pointer.) i agree that stuffing this information into headers is a bad idea (i intended to observe not advocate above) i disagree that this is a protocol problem with a protocol solution - it's simply a poor choice of data representation by the designers. more modern approaches to meta-data use namespacing and this prevents loss of information. (this is often then compounded by confusing a dead MIME document with a live email.) >> most developers in >> these mail processing environments do not need to understand the >> difference between envelope and message content because - for them - >> there is no difference. > > Yeah, that's what a lot of them think. The problem is they're quite simply > wrong, and it is isn't a harmless thing to be wrong about. I get plenty of > support calls from customers who got screwed by this lack of understanding. > > And it is NOT a minor detail when someone sets up a compliance archiving system > that ends up in many cases not being able to determine who actually sent or > received a given message. (I only wish I was making up this example.) :-) (that's why containers are now often used in the enterprise) >> Sieve works very well as a general MIME document processing language. > > Actuallly that's not Sieve's purpose at all and it isn't something Sieve is > currently good at. In fact we've only recently taken the first fairly tentative > step down the MIME processing path with the MIME loops extension and possibly > the convert extension. We'll see how well that turns out, but I have to say I'm > not optimistic that it will replace existing ad-hoc MIME processing facilities > like MIMEdefang. AIUI these limitations only apply to multipart documents. outside email, multipart documents are not so common and sieve works fine on those. >> the envelope tests are - in many ways - peculiar since the rest of the >> specification really isn't mail specific. there are potentially some >> very interesting applications in this area so it would be a shame - i >> think - for the expert group to focus too strongly on SMTP at the >> expense of other IMHO equally valid Sieve use cases. > > I don't object to the use of Sieve in other contexts - in principle. But the > devil is in the details. A good example of this is the use of Sieve in an IMAP > server as defined in draft-ietf-lemonade-imap-sieve-05.txt. This doesn't seem > like too much of a stretch from existing usage, but when I reviewed this > document a while back I found all sorts of semantic mismatches, some of them > quite serious. > >> > But here's the dilemma: This stuff is complicated and in some cases fairly >> > subtle. This in turn means that the reiteration of even a subset of the >> > underlying design principles that implementors need to know takes up a lot of >> > space and will still fall short of the mark of giving the necessary guidance. >> > But it may lead to the belief that reading this specification (or for that >> > matter this one and RFC 5228) is in fact sufficient to understand how to use >> > Sieve. It quite simply isn't. > >> again, i beg to differ > >> sieve is very similar structurally to the guerrilla standards used in >> enterprise mail system for more than 5 years now. for most mail >> processing applications, only the container builders need to have a >> good understanding of the protocols. application developers are >> offered a safe environment and an OOP interface. i see no reason why >> sieve should be any different. > > Understanding of the protocols isn't necessary, but I'm very much afraid that > there's no avoiding an understanding of email semantics if you want things to > work properly. We may wish it were otherwise, but it just isn't. depends on what you mean by that if you're talking about processing as part of SMTP processing (or any other protocol) then i agree but often when people think they are processing email, the use case boils down to essentially processing a dead MIME document with meta-data that has been previously delivered through some protocol or other. they may do some other protocol stuff - such as forwarding some result - but that's essentially acting as an email client. this is usually within the capability of most general developers without a good understanding of email semantics. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06N2B8C032880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:02:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n06N2Bg1032879; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:02:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com (mail-bw0-f12.google.com [209.85.218.12]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n06N1wtg032855 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:02:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com) Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so15256464bwz.10 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:01:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=TZYKR3OQXq+SQaujU/8pcEDvCpgcZWoROvhBh1bLMCA=; b=Kqb8deQl9QIzHcgJviDAKaaq4BzG0/hwHfMuPT9KXcLaTnIBvD7yvRoS5ejiVB5S7G cYXRUI9mayJJpTgSJ7pIcNqzhKAjA7TQS7Q0m4EwOv3wvDS7Zaya5R3VWKWXuXcec4Sx wq3GBGzAyc7PBXshIfrA27lFMsyX9fmtt/pQs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=bWrTC6nayww6H/X6aiQynVKlajdi2eo+UCejg0bkl8kYjKvtCOfOAp0nHUWTkm+2n8 ru6jfyo1r5A3EeU8q423bgXCJWNAMH0t65vw85eqxPbcPWpiJKQSgclIy20GF1J0Zs+d 18IGJTERZQAlzqGi4RT+maf0i8C0iWno8ZWaE= Received: by 10.181.193.15 with SMTP id v15mr7696637bkp.168.1231282917420; Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.9.9 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:01:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <f470f68e0901061501m5f59723cu805e0487c548145@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:01:57 +0000 From: "Robert Burrell Donkin" <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> To: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Subject: Re: draft-freed-sieve-in-xml status? Cc: "Ned Freed" <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <495889A0.40505@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <f470f68e0812041225x318bfdccg1bf9201b53ce8c2e@mail.gmail.com> <493E908E.70504@isode.com> <f470f68e0812090956j56c29f17s77fc554adaab1350@mail.gmail.com> <f470f68e0812140301r7ef04460t24f2ea9e6d2ff7a0@mail.gmail.com> <01N32VHWP1EK00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812141304i228b5a03s890e0f101b76b07e@mail.gmail.com> <01N335CY3MAQ00SE3A@mauve.mrochek.com> <f470f68e0812150500r5d1916f4obbd941434295fe07@mail.gmail.com> <01N3MQQCAYL000007A@mauve.mrochek.com> <495889A0.40505@isode.com> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote: > Ned Freed wrote: >>>> >>>> But I'm sitll a little confused as to what you're asking for here. If >>>> you're >>>> asking for removal of the explicit inline XML syntax examples in favor >>>> of a >>>> more abstract approach, I'd be fine with that if there's a WG consensus >>>> to make >>>> such a change. >>>> >>> >>> no - i'm very happy with the syntax examples >>> i would like to see the approach used in RFC 5023 (and others) >>> adopted, adding a normative description of the XML and making the >>> schema only informative. >>> >> >> Personally, I find RFC 5023 approach, like the XOPEN object descriptions >> it's >> similar to, to be almost totally unreadable. Maybe it's the only >> reasonable way >> to do it when the element structure is quite complex, but that's not the >> case >> here. >> > > Speaking as an individual: I tend to agree with Ned here. I prefer having > some formal syntax for defining XML + some examples demonstrating different > Sieve features. > I think adding a descriptive definition of XML is a fair bit of work for > little gain. However, I would not oppose to having some descriptive > definition (which I think should be informative), especially if somebody > suggests some text ;-). (i'm unlikely to contribute to a flawed specification unless there is some hope that it will be fixed) using XML Schema as the formal definition means that decisions have to be taken which are forced by the language which would not be required by an alternative formal method. 1. a decision will be needed to either use the default namespace or another namespace. this will mean either sacrificing user who are still using parsers from the 1990s or sacrificing those who need explicit namespacing. 2. a decision will also need to be taken about the mixture of domains. mixing sieve with annotations about sieve means that the schema has to be edited (to separate these concerns) before being used in modern generators. unless this is supported at least implicitly by the specification, it just means that an alternative specification will be needed for these use cases. ATM lack of namespace support and a failure to separate the concerns in the design of schema means that the specification is useless to me and many other developers using modern, namespace aware tools. by applying methods used in other RFCs facing these issues, it should be possible to create a specification suitable for both legacy and modern tooling. - robert Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n01Jxv8n096141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:59:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n01JxvQm096140; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:59:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [64.170.98.32]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n01Jxorl096130 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:59:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from root@core3.amsl.com) Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 197F128C169; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-06.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090101200002.197F128C169@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:00:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Protocol for Remotely Managing Sieve Scripts Author(s) : A. Melnikov, T. Martin Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-06.txt Pages : 50 Date : 2009-01-01 Sieve scripts allow users to filter incoming email. Message stores are commonly sealed servers so users cannot log into them, yet users must be able to update their scripts on them. This document describes a protocol "ManageSieve" for securely managing Sieve scripts on a remote server. This protocol allows a user to have multiple scripts, and also alerts a user to syntactically flawed scripts. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-06.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-managesieve-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-01-01115449.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart--