Re: [Simple] OMA and draft-niemi-simple-chat-03.txt

[Hisham Khartabil <[e-mail]>]

No one is denying MSRP the chat functionality. People want it and need  
it. But there is nothing wrong with arguing the technical solution at  
hand.

I agree with you that we need a solution *now*, and no one can argue  
against the fact that XCON has been slow in producing results. My  
objection to the draft is the LISTSEND method.

Can you remind folks why a solution similar to  
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipping-uri-list- 
message-06.txt is not acceptable?

Hisham

On Feb 10, 2006, at 9:49 AM, Miguel Garcia wrote:

> I want to stress Aki's point here. Existing proprietary systems all  
> offer multiuser chat type of functions. Other standards, namely  
> jabber, offer also the same function. I can't understand why are we  
> neglecting MSRP the well-deserved chat functionality. Or is the a plan  
> to make MSRP a looser?
>
> /Miguel
>
>
> Aki Niemi wrote:
>> Paul,
>> I'm not half as concerned about this balkanization of conferencing  
>> features as you appear to be. In fact, I think what you describe is  
>> only a problem if we look at things with the standards-committee  
>> glasses on. Of course then, everything even remotely resembling  
>> conferencing needs to be dumped to XCON, which we are now eagerly  
>> waiting to get their act together so we can make forward progress.
>> Why I think MSRP chat is important and needs to get done *now* is  
>> that without multi-user chat, MSRP will pale in comparison to every  
>> other chat out there. Check out IRC or Jabber MUC. They both have  
>> nicknames, private messages (!=sidebar) and sidebars. Done in  
>> chat-specific way.
>> I happen to believe we can make these features in a chat specific way  
>> in MSRP and whenever XCON gets the generic mechanisms ready, we can  
>> migrate to them. So where's the problem?
>> Cheers,
>> Aki
>> ext Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>> I'm in violent agreement with Mary and Hisham.
>>>
>>> There are a number of things that concern me:
>>>
>>> - the balkanization of media, in that certain features that
>>>   ought to be media independent are instead implemented in
>>>   a unique way for this one medium.
>>>
>>> - I never liked distsend, for the reason above - it is an
>>>   end run around sidebars. But in addition to that it has
>>>   been recently pointed out on the list that it can't work,
>>>   because only SEND is chunked in MSRP.
>>>
>>> - as Mary mentions, nicknames aren't just an IM issue.
>>>   (Balkanization again.) And getting the semantics of
>>>   nicknames right may be tricky. (Within a particular
>>>   context (greater than a single conference session)
>>>   I don't want the same nickname to be grabbed by
>>>   different people too easily.)
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>>> Mary Barnes wrote:
>>>
>>>> When this draft was discussed previously, the discussion was that  
>>>> the
>>>> aliasing (nickname) problem was a more general SIP problem and it  
>>>> was
>>>> proposed that a team be assembled to address that general problem.  
>>>> I'm
>>>> assuming that team never formed or if they did are there any  
>>>> conclusions
>>>> to share?
>>>> And, I thought the sidebar functionality was suggested to be  
>>>> supported
>>>> by the work in XCON.
>>>> I'm in agreement with Hisham in that I'd rather not see a  
>>>> specialized
>>>> solution for OMA pushed through when general solutions are more
>>>> appropriate.
>>>> Mary.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On  
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Dean Willis
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 12:05 PM
>>>> To: Hisham Khartabil
>>>> Cc: Simple WG
>>>> Subject: Re: [Simple] OMA and draft-niemi-simple-chat-03.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just had a chat with some of the OMA messaging people, and the  
>>>> main  thing they're dealing with is sidebar conversations in MSRP   
>>>> conferences. They also want dynamic alias negotiation. They'll send  
>>>>  some requirements docs and supporting material to the list in the   
>>>> next few days.
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice to find a path towards a solution that works for   
>>>> everybody involved.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Dean Willis
>>>> IETF liaison to OMA.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Hisham Khartabil wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This draft is not mature at all and I hope OMA don't force SIMPLE   
>>>>> to stick to whatever is in there just because that's how they   
>>>>> defined their service to be (some of us have the opinion that   
>>>>> whatever is in there now is broken and does not work with MSRP   
>>>>> properly).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Hisham
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 9, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Dean Willis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> OMA's messaging working group is all abuzz about their alleged   
>>>>>> need for draft-niemi-simple-chat-03.txt to become an RFC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm trying to figure exactly which part of this draft they think   
>>>>>> they need, and I'll get back with you when I have more   
>>>>>> information. So far, they've told me that their entire chat room   
>>>>>> approach is built around this draft. I presume they're using the   
>>>>>> MSRP extension in this draft, but don't know for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, it may be time to give this draft another read, and see   
>>>>>> what we think about the problem set it's trying to solve -- N-way  
>>>>>>  centralized MSRP conferencing with sidebars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Dean
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
> -- 
> Miguel A. Garcia           tel:[phone]
> sip:[e-mail]
> Nokia Research Center      Helsinki, Finland
>
>
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