Re: [Stackevo-discuss] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-welzl-irtf-iccrg-tcp-in-udp-00.txt

Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> Wed, 23 March 2016 23:51 UTC

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 16:51:28 -0700
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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
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Cc: stackevo-discuss@iab.org, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: [Stackevo-discuss] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-welzl-irtf-iccrg-tcp-in-udp-00.txt
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On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>
>> On 24. mar. 2016, at 00.05, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/2016 4:42 AM, Michael Welzl wrote:
>>> I'm sending this here as well because it relates to the idea of "running the Internet over UDP" (which, I noticed, is presentation that Brian will give in MAPRG: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/95/agenda/maprg/ ).
>>> This draft explains how we think it should be done with TCP; we believe that it can have quite significant positive side-effects, mainly because of the opportunity to combine the congestion controls of multiple connections.
>>
>> Ick.
>>
>> We went through this before multiple times. One notable was the impact
>> of chunking and muxing in HTTP, effectively reinventing IP inside.
>>
>> "A person with one watch always knows what time it is. A person with two
>> is never sure.”
>
> I don’t think I follow this, sorry.
>
>
>> I can't imagine what combined congestion control of TCP would mean
>> inside the network - we had a hard enough time defining it for either
>> TCB sharing or the Congestion Manager just at the endpoints.
>
> I don’t get this either; it sounds like a misunderstanding?
>
> So the encapsulation here is just meant to force packets to take the same path - else the Congestion Manager may be doing something pretty wrong.
> The sender-side behavior then couples connections; this could be done via the Congestion Manager, or in a way similar to TCB sharing, or with our algorithm (which is somewhat similar to TCB sharing). That’s why we call it “example algorithm” - think of this as “UDP encapsulation forces TCP connections on the same path so we can use the CM”. That’s really all it is.
>
You should be able to accomplish the "same path" behavior by setting
IPv6 flow label same value for different connections between same IP
pair. This avoids all the unpleasantness that accompanies
encapsulation.

Tom

> Cheers,
> Michael
>
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