Re: [TICTOC] draft minutes of tictoc meeting at IETF 81
Karen O'Donoghue <kodonog@pobox.com> Tue, 16 August 2011 19:04 UTC
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Subject: Re: [TICTOC] draft minutes of tictoc meeting at IETF 81
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Folks, I've heard that my .txt file attachment was stripped off on some systems. Here are the minutes in line for your review... Karen DRAFT (15 Aug 2011) Minutes for TICTOC meeting @ IETF-80 28 July 2011, 15:20 EDT (19:20 UTC) The meeting started at 15:20 EDT. Karen O'Donoghue and Yaakov Stein chaired the meeting Dave Marlow took minutes. Karen was jabber scribe. Karen bashed the agenda and the blue sheets were distributed. Karen provided the status for the Working group since the last meeting: 3 working group drafts, 3 individual submissions, and no interim meetings. Stefano Ruffino provided slides for an ITU-T SG15/Q13 update which Yaakov presented. SG15/Q13 had an interim meeting in May 2011. There were two primary topics of interest to TICTOC: (1) Packet timing performance aspects for frequency (G.826x series); and (2)Time Sync in packet networks (G.827x series). The frequency work is maturing while the time/phase work has its requirements document (G.8271) updated and other documents are identified and being started. SG15/Q13 is also working on a definition and terminology document for both frequency and time of day (G.8260). Yang Cui provided a Security Requirements discussion based on IPsec security for packet based synchronization, draft-xu-tictoc-ipsec-security-for-synchronization-01. As described by its Abstract, this document analyses the need for security methods for synchronization messages distributed over the Internet and gives a solution on how to mark the synchronization message when IPSec is implemented in end to end frequency synchronization. It was pointed out that the Introduction has requirements language (i.e. SHALLs) and these will need to be taken out of this section. There was considerable discussion on the IEEE 1588 PTP use case across the Internet where Yaakov and Greg Dowd pointed out you cannot have transparent clocks you must tunnel. On a discussion of whether to encrypt packets across 3GPP, someone from the jabber room pointed out that with 3GPP you must encrypt. Yaakov asked whether the authors have talked with anyone in the closing IPsec WG about this draft and Yang indicated that he has and they do not have any questions. Karen asked whether the Working Group thought this work should be pursued, but got little feedback. Peter Lothberg said that in some use cases this could be useful but this provides no value for the Internet use case. Yang said that the femtocell is getting greater use and there is no protection in the femtocell. Greg Dowd said that femtocells are meant to provide telephone calls and that they can be stopped by dropping all data. He said we needed to clarify the threat models we are building the security for. Karen discussed time synchronization protocol security requirements. The expired TICTOC Requirements draft had recently been resubmitted (draft-ietf-tictoc-requirements-01). This draft identifies three security mechanisms to consider. Karen went over a survey that was done at the beginning of the TICTOC work where four questions were identified that cover the different aspects for possible security services. Karen said that a volunteer editor has been identified to work on general time synchronization security requirements. The goal is to have a draft by the next meeting. Greg Dowd provided a PTPv2 MIB discussion based on draft-ietf-tictoc-ptp-mib-00. This MIB goes beyond the earlier drafts that only covered the PTPv2 telecom profile. This MIB covers all the PTPv2 devices. The current draft is in its third version and Greg felt it was now semantically correct. Asked whether this MIB has been deployed, Greg said that it has. Measuring the performance of a PTPv2 node is outside the present scope, but this could be added later. Yaakov asked whether there was commonality between this MIB and the NTPv4 MIB (RFC 5907), Greg said that this MIB was PTPv2 specific with little commonality to the NTP MIB. Dave Marlow said that he had read the draft and found little commonality with the NTP MIB but was very supportive of this draft which appears very thorough. The Chairs said that there needs to be MIB Doctor review (which they would pursue) and review by TICTOC participants for this draft to progress. Yaakov lead a discussion on Transporting PTP messages (IEEE 1588) over MPLS Networks, draft-ietf-tictoc-1588overmpls-01. He said that the draft very mature with three individual drafts and now one TICTOC version. There has been considerable discussion on the list. Yaakov asked what was needed before this goes to WGLC? Luca Martini said that there are some text formatting issues and that some sections have given a a wrong impression. Of particular concern were the two modes (IP over MPLS and Pseudowire), Pseudowire is not needed if timing is a service of the network and there is only one clock over the network. Pseudowire is needed if PTP is used directly over Ethernet, and Yaakov pointed out that in many parts of the world there are many clocks that a carrier transports separately. There were some concerns from the MPLS community, George Swallow pointed out an issue with fast reroute to address a fault. There were concerns whether the draft was ready for last call or not, and what procedure should be taken to get comments from the MPLS community. George suggested to at least announce to the MPLS list about a WGLC in TICTOC. Tal Mizrahi briefed UDP Checksum Trailer in Timing Protocols, draft-mizrahi-tictoc-checksum-trailer-00. This draft proposes a Checksum Trailer extension to NTP, OWAMP and TWAMP that allows intermediate nodes to reflect the checksum modification in the last 2 octets of the packet rather than in the UDP checksum field. This is to bring a capability already in IEEE 1588 into these other protocols. Yaakov asked why this is being brought into OWAMP and TWAMP. Tal said these are performance protocols that transfer time and could be benefited as well. An issue related to the NTP extension field had been raised and discussed on the mailing list. This proposed technique requires an extension field without authentication (i.e. without a MAC) to be practical; however, the NTPv4 spec (i.e. RFC 5905) REQUIRES all extension fields to include authentication. Discussion on the list included opinions that the RFC was wrong and this is not a requirement for NTPv4. Additional effort is needed to determine if NTPv4 spec should be changed or not. Yaakov pointed out that both OWAMP and TWAMP have authenticated modes. This draft is intended for non authenticated packets only. Yaakov said that in the case of OWAMP this is very limiting because its default is to be authenticated. In addition Yaakov said that OWAMP and TWAMP would require an extension to their control protocols. OWAMP and TWAMP are IPPM protocols, the Chairs took an action to send this draft to the IPPM chairs. Tal was asked whether the mechanisms discussed in the draft had been implemented and he said the mechanisms had not yet been implemented. Dave Marlow discussed Network Time Mechanisms for Improving Computer Clock Accuracy, draft-marlow-tictoc-computer-clock-accuracy-00. This draft had not been updated since the last meeting but Dave briefed the discussion that had been on the list. Vladimir Smotlacha provided to the list, references to his papers describing NTP servers which use OCXO oscillators to achieve much higher synchronization accuracy than the experimental results described in this draft. The use case in the draft covers client accuracy and thus is outside the Vladimir's use case which addresses server accuracy. In June, Karen had forwarded a note from Dave Mills to the list which mentioned that additional experimental results with NTP Interleave are in his book. Dave Mill's book provides experimental results for both an unloaded scenario (which is a very similar to the experiment described in the draft) and a loaded scenario. Dave Mills, in his email, pointed out that Interleave showed greater improvement in the loaded scenarios and with digest computations (e.g. Autokey). Dave Marlow and Tim Plunkett are looking at the experimental results in the book and comparing this to their results. Tim Frost provided a paper on Minimum Time-Dispersion Metrics to the list. Dave indicated that this provides direction towards identifying a common set of metrics for network time synchronization experiments. A common set of metrics or perhaps a benchmarking draft could be a candidate for future TICTOC work. Greg Dowd said that there are products on the market that can provide a hardware time stamp based on a programmable sequence off of a packet data network, this provides a direction for the second mechanism outlined in the draft. Yaakov mentioned that his company tried NTP interleave on their highly optimized products and did not see a significant difference in performance. Dave said he and Tim Plunkett would like to update their draft with the new information. He solicited comments and contributions on mechanisms to achieve greater client accuracy. Karen led an additional NTP discussion. The NTP control protocol which is an appendix of RFC 1305 (NTPv3) is not in a current standard since RFC 1305 was deprecated. Volunteers are needed to get this important work documented and standardized. Brian Haberman (along with Karen, co-chair of the NTP working group) suggested in line with Dave Hart to get rid of mode 7 and just document mode 6. Harlan Stenn, via jabber requested that mode 7 be documented as well. Dave Hart, via jabber, said that mode 7 is fragile and vendor specific, so that there is no use in standardizing it. Harlan volunteered to document the NTP control protocol. It was pointed out that RFC 5905 needs to be redone since mode 6 is identified for future use; however, if this is an IANA controlled field then just a change by IANA is needed. Karen asked for volunteers to document the NTP interleave extensions. There has been email on list discussing Autokey bugs/vulnerabilities being found by PTB (Germany's Standards Organization). There were no details discussed at this meeting but this is a concern that must be followed. There was a short discussion on what work would be carried out in the NTP WG and what should be done in the TICTOC WG. Brian said that all NTP control protocol work should be done in the NTP WG but he had no opinion at this time as to where Interleave work should be done. All co-chairs agreed that email on any NTP topic should be sent to both lists. The meeting adjourned at 17:20 EDT (21:20 UTC). On 8/15/11 10:25 AM, Karen O'Donoghue wrote: > Folks, > > Below are the draft minutes for the recent tictoc meeting. Thanks to > Dave Marlow for the timely production of the minutes. Please review > and submit any comments or changes as soon as possible. > > Regards, > Karen > > > > _______________________________________________ > TICTOC mailing list > TICTOC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tictoc
- [TICTOC] draft minutes of tictoc meeting at IETF … Karen O'Donoghue
- Re: [TICTOC] draft minutes of tictoc meeting at I… Karen O'Donoghue