Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cases
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Wed, 08 November 2017 00:27 UTC
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:27:31 -0800
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To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" <fandreas@cisco.com>, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cases
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On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Stephen, > Please see below: > > On 11/7/17, 4:08 PM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > > Hiya, > > On 07/11/17 23:53, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > > Hi Stephen, Adding to Flemming’s comment, finding “exact quotes” > > will be difficult > > I'm sorry but when making a claim that such and such a regulation > *requires* breaking TLS then you really do need to be that precise. > [NCW] In TLS 1.2, not sure why you state *requires* as there is the visibility afforded to > at least allow for the identity disclosure to enable white or blacklist for example. > > > as their intent is really not to break things but > > rather want to ensure that inspection and oversight is available to > > affect guards/protections within an (enterprise/data center) > > infrastructure. That said, PCI and other regulations will have a > > lot of documents that one has to go through….one that kind-of calls > > explicitly to the use of packet inspection, firewalling and such is > > in: > > > > https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/documents/SAQ_D_v3_Merchant.pdf > > The first mention of TLS there talks about protecting administrator > passwords via TLS. That totally argues against deployment of any kind > of MitM infrastructure. > [NCW] Agreed, they also state in ensuring that the newest TLS version where > possible is used. BUT, they also expect monitoring and troubleshooting. > > > > > It is an assessment questionnaire for vendors to evaluate their > > compliance, the requirements speak to securing the network and > > systems including firewalls, DMZs and the ability to do packet > > inspection. > > Please point me at the specific text. Given you added PCI-DSS to > your document I would assume you did the work already. If not, > that's a bit odd. > [NCW] From the link above, you can look at requirements in 1.3, > also Requirement 10 details the need to monitor and provide audit trails > for network resources and cardholder data. None of the questions in requirement 10 require middlebox interception. > > S. > > > > > > Thanks, Nancy > > > > On 11/7/17, 3:27 PM, "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" > > <fandreas@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > Thanks for taking an initial look at the document Stephen - please > > see below for responses so far > > > > On 11/7/17 4:13 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > >> Hiya, > >> > >> On 07/11/17 02:48, Flemming Andreasen wrote: > >>> We didn't draw any particular line, but the use case scenarios > >>> that we tried to highlight are those related to overall security > >>> and regulatory requirements (including public sector) > >> I had a quick look at the draft (will try read properly en-route > >> to ietf-100) and I followed the reference to [1] but that only lead > >> to a forest of documents in which I didn't find any reference to > >> breaking TLS so far at least. Can you provide an explicit pointer > >> to the exact document on which that claim is based? > > For NERC, you can look under "(CIP) Critital Infrastructure > > Protection". CIP-005-5 for example covers the electronic security > > perimeter, which has a couple of relevant requirements and associated > > text: > > > > http://www.nerc.com/_layouts/PrintStandard.aspx?standardnumber=CIP-005-5&title=Cyber%20Security%20-%20Electronic%20Security%20Perimeter(s)&jurisdiction=United%20States > > > > > > > > To be clear though, the document does not specifically call out > > breaking TLS, but it does clearly call out the need to detect > > malicious inbound and outbound communications by leveraging an > > "Electronic Access Point" (e.g. IDS/IPS) to enforce the Electronic > > Security Perimeter. > >> I'd also claim that your reference to PCI-DSS is misleading, as > >> that same spec also explicitly calls for there to be good key > >> management specifically including minimising the number of copies > >> of keys, so at most, one might be able to claim that PCI-DSS is ok > >> with people who break TLS in a nod-and-a-wink manner. But if you do > >> have a real quote from PCI-DSS that calls for breaking TLS then > >> please do also send that (it's been asked for a bunch of times > >> without any answer being provided so far). > > > > I will need to look more closely for such a quote - if anybody else > > knows of one, please chime in as well. > > > > Thanks > > > > -- Flemming > > > > > >> Thanks, S. > >> > >> > >> [1] > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-00.html#ref-NERCCIP > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls -- "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains". --Rousseau.
- [TLS] network-based security solution use cases Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Flemming Andreasen
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
- Re: [TLS] network-based security solution use cas… Eric Rescorla