Re: [TLS] ECDHE_PSK as WG item?

[Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>]

At Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:25:20 +0200,
<[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> <wg chair hat on>
> 
> Mohammad Badra has requested that the TLS WG adopt
> draft-badra-ecdhe-tls-psk as a WG item. This draft was presented 
> in Vancouver, but few comments have been received so far.
> 
> Please use this thread to comment; not only the technical
> details, but whether you think this is useful; should it be
> done as WG item or individual document; and whether you're
> willing to work on this document.

I think it's generally useful to have a reasonably orthogonal
suite of cipher suites, so it would be good to have PSK usable
with ECDH. I'm willing to commit to reviewing this draft.

-Ekr

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Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:58:55 -0800
From: Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>
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OK, I've now fixed this stuff in my local copy. I propose we wait
and see if anyone else has anything by like Monday and otherwise
I'll roll -10 and we can submit to Tim. WFY?

-Ekr


At Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:34:33 +0200,
<[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> Three nits from my personal review:
> 
> Section 4.7: the example at the end of section isn't any more 
> fully correct with the changed definition of digitally-signed 
> (since the "digitally-signed" construct now includes the hashing 
> step). Suggested rephrasing:

Well, you could double hash, but i take your point.


>    In the following example
> 
>       stream-ciphered struct {
>           uint8 field1;
>           uint8 field2;
>           digitally-signed struct { 
>              opaque field3<0..255>;
>              uint16 field4;
>           };
>       } UserType;
> 
>    the contents of the inner struct (field3 and field4) are used 
>    as input for the signature/hash algorithm, and then the entire
>    structure is encrypted with a stream cipher. [...]
> 
> 
> 7.4.3/A.4.2, ServerKeyExchange definition: the second "case dhe_dss"
> should be "case dh_dss".

Fixed.


> 7.4.3 and A.4.2, KeyExchangeAlgorithm lists dh_anon twice

Doh! I added those cause I thought I had missed them and
my eyes have gone numb.


> Also couple of typos (could be fixed later, too):
> 
> 7.4.3/A.4.2: extra blank lines in definition of ServerKeyExchange.

You mean:

    };

} ServerKeyExchange;

Fixed.


> A.4.2: should delete descriptions of dh_p/dh_g/dh_Ys, since
>   the appendix is supposed to contain only the struct definitions

Agreed. I'm finding it a real pain to keep these harmonized.
Next time I do one of these I'm going to have some auto-appendicizer :)

> 7.4.7/A.4.3, weird indentation (and extra blank lines) in definition
>   of ClientKeyExchange.
The extra blank line was intentional for readability, but now that
you seay it, sure.


> 4.6.1, the example struct has weird indentation around the 
>   orange/banana cases.
These are fixed.

> 4.7, "pplus" -> "plus"
> 7.4.7.1, "premaster_secert" -> "premaster_secret"
> References: [IDEA] is not cited anywhere, can be removed 

Fixed.
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From: Uri Blumenthal <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:19:45 -0500
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Subject: Re: [TLS] shared secrets from passwords
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On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:44 PM, Florian Weimer wrote:

> * Yoav Nir:
>
>> The idea is that this shared secret has the properties that (a) it
>> can't be used for anything other than IKEv2 so storing it is
>> presumably OK (why?), and (b) it looks random. The RFC goes on to
>> state this:
>>
>>                                As noted above, deriving the shared
>>   secret from a password is not secure.  This construction is used
>>   because it is anticipated that people will do it anyway.
>
> [RFC 4306]
>
> In retrospect, this is a bit off--it's insecure in what context?

Depends on the usage. If one uses password-derived shared secret to   
authenticate key agreement (using it in HMAC-like construct or  
otherwise in place of a "good" shared secret), or worse - as keying  
material - then it's insecure because an attacker can perform off- 
line brute-forcing on the observed exchange targeting the weak link -  
the password itself. However there are ways (Encrypted Key Exchange  
is the best example) to authenticate DH using password-derived shared  
secret with sufficient security.

Also, the more complex the password is (length, distance from  
dictionary-found words, use of full-spectrum alphabet) - the more  
computing resources the attacker would need to have a reasonable  
chance of success.
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Thread-Topic: [TLS] SIV as WG item?
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Subject: Re: [TLS] SIV as WG item?
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<wg chair hat on>

Only one slightly positive comment has been received so far, 
and nobody has indicated willingness to work on this document 
in TLS WG. Thus, we do not, at this time, have sufficient
support for adopting this document as TLS WG item.

Note that this decision is solely about adopting this document 
as TLS WG item. We are not deciding whether this document can 
be published as RFC, or deciding whether SIV mode in general 
is a good idea. If the authors believe it worthwhile, this 
decision does not prevent them from continuing the work.

Best regards,
Pasi
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