[TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Standalone and Hybrid ML-KEM Key Exchange in TLS 1.3
Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> Mon, 08 June 2026 08:28 UTC
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2026 18:27:53 +1000
From: Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org>
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References: <cec4e220-0842-486d-9c69-ddaf37260da4@tu-dresden.de> <MN2PR17MB40310B7FDC1875D16334B680CD102@MN2PR17MB4031.namprd17.prod.outlook.com> <154E6BD1-8F60-4E84-930D-751A812840C8@joseon.com> <CAGgd1OeM=b+g-SCtbQuV9OprSDFHRPk=xcnzqRY0Jd7JQsxeng@mail.gmail.com> <8BF77F56-3E92-490A-A15B-ECA803E745D4@joseon.com> <CAOvwWh3JY6u_vBMtwMOZ96UyM1-uYwuy+9m9xEUXwt+QDK0bbA@mail.gmail.com> <SYBPR01MB6336522468BC74BDCB5C99FCEE1C2@SYBPR01MB6336.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com> <CACSbMKkOw=aHWp3b=gnyd1DBMs4Vd3p11cF_EjCuqkaxvUQStA@mail.gmail.com> <AS4PR07MB88256CB335FB9CC86009170A891C2@AS4PR07MB8825.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <874ijdv63m.fsf@josefsson.org>
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Subject: [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Standalone and Hybrid ML-KEM Key Exchange in TLS 1.3
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2026 at 09:33:49AM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> The above argument is often repeated, but I think there are naunces that
> get lost when phrased like that. Security is rarely binary either or,
> but more of a spectrum. All ECDSA keys in the world won't automatically
> be revealed on the first day a CRQC is demonstrated. People still run
> RSA 1024 deployments (e.g., DNSSEC)
In DNSSEC, ECDSA P-256 exceeds the deployment of RSA, and with RSA
domains, the KSKs are most commonly 2048 bits, with RSA-1024 KSKs on
only ~0.2% of signed domains. Yes, migration to PQC will take time.
Today's numbers:
- Algorithm frequencies:
https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/#/?dnssec_param_tab=0
KSK Alg Domain count
13 (ECDSA P-256) | 14891802
8 (RSA SHA2-256) | 10202696
15 (Ed25519) | 576447
10 (RSA SHA2-512) | 179838
14 (ECDSA P-384) | 166224
7 (RSA SHA1 NSEC3) | 73316
5 (RSA SHA1) | 11194
- RSA KSK bit count frequencies:
https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/#/?dnssec_param_tab=2
Bits Domain Count
2048 | 10008497
4096 | 405294
1024 | 24925
1280 | 17001
1536 | 5251
3072 | 2138
512 | 388
2024 | 148
2560 | 139
For ZSKs (that are much easier to rotate, if the operator bothers)
RSA-1024 is dominant at ~90%.
- RSA ZSK bit count frequencies:
https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/#/?dnssec_param_tab=3
Bits Domain Count
1024 | 9039068
2048 | 1066378
4096 | 72116
1280 | 8079
3072 | 2753
512 | 433
1032 | 277
1536 | 271
2304 | 137
--
Viktor. đŸ‡ºđŸ‡¦ Đ¡Đ»Đ°Đ²Đ° Đ£ĐºÑ€Đ°Ñ—Đ½Ñ–!
- [TLS] FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Standalon… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Ilari Liusvaara
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Songbo Bu
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Ilari Liusvaara
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Songbo Bu
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Songbo Bu
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Jacob Appelbaum
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Deb Cooley
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Soatok Dreamseeker
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Soatok Dreamseeker
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Ted Lemon
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Andrew Lee
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nathanael Ritz
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Nadim Kobeissi
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… David Stainton
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… DA PIEVE Fabiana
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Ilari Liusvaara
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… DA PIEVE Fabiana
- [TLS] Re: FATT Chance: On the Robustness of Stand… Salz, Rich