Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month

[Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>]

Are we looking at a race condition.  Each side needs the other's 
official piece and neither can move first?  :(

On 7/12/23 08:15, Stu Card wrote:
> I have not seen any official notice of approval or assignment, as we 
> are all hoping to see before IETF 117 begins JUL 22, but the link from 
> [1] below now points to
>
> https://www.icao.int/airnavigation/IATF/Documents/ASTM%20F3411-22a%20SAM%20ID%20%20Registry_Public_10.07.23.xlsx?Web=1
>
> which now shows the 4 SAM codes 1 through 4 "reserved" for 
> draft-ietf-drip-auth (albeit with incorrect "notes" fields, which 
> probably don't matter, but should be corrected, perhaps when the draft 
> is published as an RFC).
>
> :-)
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Tm-rid <[e-mail]> on behalf of Jay Daley 
> <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 1, 2023, 04:52
> *To:* Adam Wiethuechter <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; 
> Philip Kenul (ASTM) <[e-mail]>; Da Silva, Saulo 
> <[e-mail]>; Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting 
> in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
>
> Also, you probably all know this, but just in case, the list of 
> existing numbers already includes one for the IETF:
>
> https://www.icao.int/airnavigation/IATF/Documents/ASTM%20F3411-22a%20SAM%20ID%20%20Registry_Public_29.06.23.xlsx 
> (linked to from [1] below)
>
> Jay
>
> > On 1 Jul 2023, at 09:49, Jay Daley <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Adam
> >
> > All four requests have now been submitted.  The response to each was:
> >
> >> Your Request was submitted, it will be reviewed and confirmed that 
> it meets the requirements stated above. Once the request is approved, 
> the disposition (and number assignment as appropriate) will be sent to 
> the Primary Contact E-mail Address and the registration table will be 
> updated. The Service Level Agreement (SLA) for processing a request is 
> 4 weeks, although processing may be much sooner.
> >
> > I will keep an eye out on the IESG list for the responses.
> >
> > No payment has yet been requested.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >> On 30 Jun 2023, at 19:07, Adam Wiethuechter 
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Jay,
> >>
> >> The portal is now open [1]. Follow this direct link [2] for the SAM 
> ID registration form.
> >>
> >> This is the final registration information set for the SAM IDs 
> taking everything from this thread in for DRIP.
> >>
> >> Specification Name: Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) Link
> >> Org: Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
> >> Org Address: 1000 N West Street, Suite 1200, Wilmington, DE 19801
> >> Contact Name: Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG)
> >> Contact Email: [e-mail]
> >> Support Email: [e-mail]
> >> Specification: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-drip-auth/
> >>
> >> Specification Name: Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) Wrapper
> >> Org: Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
> >> Org Address: 1000 N West Street, Suite 1200, Wilmington, DE 19801
> >> Contact Name: Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG)
> >> Contact Email: [e-mail]
> >> Support Email: [e-mail]
> >> Specification: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-drip-auth/
> >>
> >> Specification Name: Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) 
> Manifest
> >> Org: Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
> >> Org Address: 1000 N West Street, Suite 1200, Wilmington, DE 19801
> >> Contact Name: Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG)
> >> Contact Email: [e-mail]
> >> Support Email: [e-mail]
> >> Specification: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-drip-auth/
> >>
> >> Specification Name: Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) Frame
> >> Org: Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
> >> Org Address: 1000 N West Street, Suite 1200, Wilmington, DE 19801
> >> Contact Name: Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG)
> >> Contact Email: [e-mail]
> >> Support Email: [e-mail]
> >> Specification: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-drip-auth/
> >>
> >> [1] https://www.icao.int/airnavigation/IATF/Pages/ASTM-Remote-ID.aspx
> >> [2] https://forms.office.com/r/7pijHKCm97
> >>
> >> --------
> >> 73,
> >> Adam T. Wiethuechter
> >> Software Engineer; AX Enterprize, LLC
> >> From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> on behalf of Jay Daley 
> <[e-mail]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:15 AM
> >> To: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <[e-mail]>
> >> Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>; Philip Kenul (ASTM) 
> <[e-mail]>; Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>; 
> Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting 
> in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >> It’s still not possible to register these online as of this morning 
> UTC.  I’ll try again throughout the day.
> >>
> >> Jay
> >>
> >>> On 26 Jun 2023, at 21:44, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) 
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The support should also be [e-mail] IMHO to ensure long term 
> reachability.
> >>> Kim, replicating the entry of ASTM/ICAO in the IANA pages is 
> indeed attractive.
> >>> Now, let's hope that the ICAO shop page will be back soon on line...
> >>> Regards
> >>> -éric
> >>> From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> on behalf of Adam 
> Wiethuechter <[e-mail]>
> >>> Date: Monday, 26 June 2023 at 20:00
> >>> To: Stu Card <[e-mail]>, Jay Daley 
> <[e-mail]>, Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>
> >>> Cc: Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>, "Joel M. Halpern" 
> <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, 
> "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" 
> <[e-mail]>, "Philip Kenul (ASTM)" 
> <[e-mail]>, "Da Silva, Saulo" <[e-mail]>, 
> "Goodfellow, Michael" <[e-mail]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting 
> in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>> To respond directly to Stu's point. Here is the information needed 
> to fill out the form on ICAOs website again with the updates. Things 
> may want to be spelled out; I leave that to the enterer of information.
> >>> Org: IETF
> >>>
> >>> Org Address: 1000 N West Street, Suite 1200, Wilmington, DE 19801
> >>> Contact Name: IESG
> >>> Contact Email: [e-mail]
> >>> Support Email: [e-mail]
> >>> Specification: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-drip-auth/
> >>> To be clear this needs to be done four times due to us having four 
> code points (the webform is only for one code point at a time).
> >>> --------
> >>> 73,
> >>> Adam T. Wiethuechter
> >>> Software Engineer; AX Enterprize, LLCFrom: Stu Card 
> <[e-mail]>
> >>> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 1:36 PM
> >>> To: Jay Daley <[e-mail]>; Stephan Wenger 
> <[e-mail]>; Adam Wiethuechter <[e-mail]>
> >>> Cc: Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>; Joel M. Halpern 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; 
> [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>; Philip Kenul (ASTM) 
> <[e-mail]>; Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>; 
> Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >>> Subject: RE: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting 
> in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>> As this whole thing has reached levels way above mine, I await 
> specific instructions and authorization from the DRIP WG chairs, which 
> I assume they will clear with our AD, after consultation with you all, 
> before I individually do anything, if indeed I even need to continue 
> to be part of this process, which I was just trying to encourage to 
> move along by suggesting a clear step-wise path to completion. I am 
> sure I would not be alone in being very relieved if we were to 
> complete steps 1 through 3 by the end of the day tomorrow, before 
> Wednesday’s DRIP interim meeting (thanks Eric for the weekday correction).
> >>> Adam, in my suggested plan, you had Step 1. I strongly suggest you 
> exhume the registration request information you had drafted, correct 
> the typos, update it per what appears to be the latest consensus in 
> this thread on who the registrant and contacts are, and circulate it 
> to a distribution no narrower than the one to which this thread has 
> evolved, so that when we finally do register (which Jay says he will 
> do tomorrow, so I assume he is satisfied this is what the IESG wants), 
> all the information will be correct on the 1st pass.
> >>> Thank you all.
> >>> From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Jay Daley
> >>> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 12:18 PM
> >>> To: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>
> >>> Cc: Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>; Joel M. Halpern 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; 
> [e-mail]; Philip Kenul (ASTM) <[e-mail]>; 
> Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>; Goodfellow, Michael 
> <[e-mail]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim meeting 
> in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>> Stephan
> >>> To be clear - there is no Trust involvement; IANA involvement is 
> under discussion but no commitments; the LLC will be registering and 
> paying tomorrow (and we will not reimburse if someone pre-empts that).
> >>> Jay
> >>>
> >>>> On 26 Jun 2023, at 16:52, Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>> Bob,
> >>>> More and more I feel that we are overthinking this whole thing.  
> I think we should do exactly what Stu prescribed.  No Trust 
> involvement, no IANA involvement.  LLC involvement primarily to pay 
> the bill.  The LLC personnel requests the codepoints, ICAO assigns 
> them, and the Drip WG puts them into the draft. Or, one of you DRIP 
> guys does the registration mechanics, and gets reimbursed for the $400 
> by the LLC.
> >>>> S.
> >>>> From: Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>
> >>>> Date: Monday, June 26, 2023 at 08:46
> >>>> To: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>, Jay Daley 
> <[e-mail]>, Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail]>
> >>>> Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, 
> Philip Kenul (ASTM) <[e-mail]>, Da Silva, Saulo 
> <[e-mail]>, Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim 
> meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>>> If any IETF work ever needs a new SAM code point, it will be in 
> the document that specifies it.
> >>>>
> >>>> In normal IETF life, an IANA registry is created.  But here we 
> are using values in someone else's registry.  With over a years' 
> knowledge that this was the plan.
> >>>>
> >>>> So how to break this logjam that we all had a hand in.
> >>>> On 6/26/23 11:33, Stephan Wenger wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Adding Joel.
> >>>>> Hi Eric,  if I understood Stu’s “checklist” correctly 
> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tm-rid/ifJHJyB7zCA7l0Wc4XETdekCb0E/ 
> , step 7), DRIP’s idea is to hard-code the four codepoints into 
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-drip-auth-30.html into 
> section 3.2.3.1.1 before publication as an RFC.  At which point we 
> would have a) the ASTM-designated registry, b) the hard-coded values 
> extracted from this registry, and potentially c) a IANA-maintained 
> copy of the ASTM-designated registry.  That’s an overkill, no?
> >>>>> One potential question is whether that hard-coding of SAM Types 
> in an RFC is a good idea. But I have not followed in sufficient detail 
> the WG to have an opinion here.
> >>>>> Stephan
> >>>>> P.s.: not adding [e-mail].  Clearly, this is not IETF 
> Trust business.
> >>>>> From: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Date: Monday, June 26, 2023 at 08:23
> >>>>> To: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>, Jay Daley <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Cc: Stu Card <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, 
> [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, Philip Kenul (ASTM) 
> <[e-mail]>, Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>, 
> Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim 
> meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>>>> I think that Joel's point would be more suitable for the case 
> where IETF would acquire a large number of code points and only re-use 
> part of them for one draft. In this specific case, we would acquire 
> only 4 of them and allocate all of them for a specific protocol. So, I 
> am not sure whether an IANA registry would be required *but* listing 
> those code points on the IANA would be good (like done for some IEEE 
> ones).
> >>>>>   From: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Date: Monday, 26 June 2023 at 16:59
> >>>>> To: Jay Daley <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Cc: Stu Card <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" 
> <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, 
> "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>,"[e-mail]" 
> <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" 
> <[e-mail]>, "Philip Kenul (ASTM)" 
> <[e-mail]>, "Da Silva, Saulo"<[e-mail]>, 
> "Goodfellow, Michael" <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim 
> meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>>>> Resent from: <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Resent to: Erik Kline <[e-mail]>, Eric Vyncke 
> <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Resent date: Monday, 26 June 2023 at 16:59
> >>>>> Yes, but I don’t understand Joel’s answer either.  S.
> >>>>> From: Jay Daley <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Date: Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:53
> >>>>> To: Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Cc: Stu Card <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, 
> [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, Philip Kenul (ASTM) 
> <[e-mail]>, Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>, 
> Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim 
> meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>>>> Hi Stephan
> >>>>> As noted in my email below, the following recommendation came 
> from your fellow Trustee: "to work with IANA to create a DRIP registry 
> that explicitly records those code points assigned to the IETF by ICAO".
> >>>>> cheers
> >>>>> Jay
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 26 Jun 2023, at 15:45, Stephan Wenger <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>> I got on this through the IETF Trustees list—I follow drip only 
> from a distance nowadays.
> >>>>>> I don’t understand: why involve IANA in this?  You are not 
> creating a registry, you are requesting codepoints from someone else’s 
> registry, correct?  Or is this discussion about IANA being a candidate 
> for the registrar that is mentioned in section 3.2.3.1.1 of 
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-drip-auth-30.html? Stephan
> >>>>>>  From: Tm-rid <[e-mail]> on behalf of Jay Daley 
> <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> Date: Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:36
> >>>>>> To: Stu Card <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] 
> <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] <[e-mail]>, 
> [e-mail]<[e-mail]>, Philip Kenul (ASTM) 
> <[e-mail]>, Da Silva, Saulo <[e-mail]>, 
> Goodfellow, Michael <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Drip] plan for SAM codepoints / DRIP interim 
> meeting in 2 days / IETF 117 in 1 month
> >>>>>> To follow up.  I've heard back from the Trust that they are not 
> the right people to be the registrant but they also recommend "to work 
> with IANA to create a DRIP registry that explicitly records those code 
> points assigned to the IETF by ICAO" so I guess that means the following:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - LLC to register these codepoints with LLC as registrant, IESG 
> as the contact email address, using the data supplied
> >>>>>> - If/when an IANA registry is created for this then at that 
> point we discuss with IANA if they should be the registrant and 
> maintain the registration
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kim - if you want to chip in now then please do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> While I understand Eric’s concern about us paying a fee, the 
> view expressed by Lars before he went on PTO was that it was up to 
> them how they managed their registry and we should just pay as asked, 
> so I will do follow that guidance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please let me know if there are any concerns with this, 
> otherwise I will do the deed tomorrow, assuming the ICAO portal is 
> working then.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jay
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 26 Jun 2023, at 14:49, Stu Card <[e-mail]> 
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DRIPsters –
> >>>>>>> This message is just to ensure we are all on the same page, or 
> at least in the same book chapter 😉 and to provide an audit trail.
> >>>>>>> Below is my inquiry, sent to several of the key players a week 
> ago, as to whether indeed this is our plan for SAM codepoints.
> >>>>>>> There seemed to be consensus that it is.
> >>>>>>> Questions have arisen in IETF as to which entity (e.g. IESG, 
> Trust, Admin LLC) should be our registrant.
> >>>>>>> ICAO is having some mundane IT issues that have temporarily 
> taken the registration request portal offline.
> >>>>>>> ASTM has not yet officially responded to our Liaison Statement 
> request, but we do not want that to delay us.
> >>>>>>> We have a DRIP interim virtual meeting JUN 28 THU 1000 EDT via 
> MeetEcho and this is a major agenda item.
> >>>>>>> 
> https://meetecho-interims.ietf.org/conference/?group=54b18b96-cf83-42aa-b57a-c9bd2517fe93
> >>>>>>> All, please, if you have any objections to the plan below, 
> raise them on this list before this Thursday.
> >>>>>>> Likewise, if you have any high confidence, relevant 
> informational updates, please share them ASAP.
> >>>>>>> Only if we get codepoints very soon will the DRIP WG meet in 
> IETF 117 San Francisco JUL 22-28.
> >>>>>>> Thank you!
> >>>>>>> -- Stu
> >>>>>>> 315-725-7002 mobile
> >>>>>>> (if it urgently requires interactive discussion)
> >>>>>>> From: Stu Card <[e-mail]>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2023 11:29 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: ICAO Registration fees
> >>>>>>> …
> >>>>>>> I think at this point our steps are:
> >>>>>>> (1) DRIP WG (starting w/Adam, clearing through chairs Daniel 
> and Med) pass the final consensus registration request data to IESG 
> (starting w/Eric).
> >>>>>>> (2) IESG asks IETF LLC to do it.
> >>>>>>> (3) An IETF LLC staffer goes to the portal… enters the 
> registration request data and pays the $400.
> >>>>>>> (4) ICAO passes the registration request to the designated 
> expert reviewer…
> >>>>>>> (5) The expert reviewer signs off immediately as he has long 
> known it was coming and has had the opportunity to review the required 
> specification (our 2 thus far published RFCs and one of our drafts 
> that for publication as an RFC awaits only assignment of these 
> codepoints).
> >>>>>>> (6) ICAO assigns the codepoints, lists them publicly and 
> informs both ASTM and IETF that they have done so.
> >>>>>>> (7) Adam inserts the codepoints into his Broadcast RID 
> Authentication draft and offers it for DRIP WG Last Call, you all know 
> the process from there…
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Jay Daley
> >>>>>> IETF Executive Director
> >>>>>> [e-mail]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Tm-rid mailing list
> >>>>>> [e-mail]
> >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tm-rid
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Jay Daley
> >>>>> IETF Executive Director
> >>>>> [e-mail]
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Jay Daley
> >>> IETF Executive Director
> >>> [e-mail]
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jay Daley
> >> IETF Executive Director
> >> [e-mail]
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jay Daley
> > IETF Executive Director
> > [e-mail]
> >
>
> -- 
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> [e-mail]
>
> -- 
> Tm-rid mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tm-rid
>
>