Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud
Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org> Wed, 01 April 2020 11:19 UTC
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "danwing@gmail.com" <danwing@gmail.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>
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From: Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 04:19:17 -0700
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Subject: Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud
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Hi Magnus, On 4/1/20 4:03 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 05:49 -0700, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> Hi Magnus, >> >> On 3/23/20 8:40 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Hi Marc, >>> >>> Yes, you are correct that draft-ietf-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud has a specific >>> scope. It is targeting a single path used by the transport protocol between >>> two >>> peers. When you go beyond that use case the document may not give you >>> answers. >>> The TSVWG needs to discuss your last call comments. >>> >>> If the goal of the usage is different than finding the actual working PMTU >>> for >>> the current packet flow then other considerations come into play. And yes, >>> the >>> protocol definitions in the stun-pmtud document could be used for a >>> different >>> purpose. I think you even can implement the tie in without really making it >>> more >>> complicated for another document to use the STUN-PMTUD mechanism. >> >> I think that the reasonable thing to do in stun-pmtud is to consider tsvwg- >> datagram-plpmtud as just one algorithm of what RFC 4821 permits. We need to >> add how stun-pmtud is answering the points in 6.1, probably in a new section >> by itself. > > I think that is fine. What I am really where asking for was to ensure that it is > clear how one use stun-pmtud as a packetization layer for the algorithm intsvwg-datagram-plpmtud. That's definitively the plan we put together in our recurrent authors call last Monday. Expect a new version of stun-pmtud soon. > >> >>> >>> Marc, can you uplevel the below desription from mechanisms to what you see >>> as >>> goals with the proposal. Soley as a tool for investigation, or as mechanism >>> for >>> diagnostics, measurements or probing what capabilities exists prior to >>> actual >>> demand for its usage? >> >> That proposal is purely for collecting results on various PLPMTUD algorithms >> for UDP protocols, to be able to make informed decisions in a future version >> of RFC 4821. Another questions I could not find answers to is how often does >> a PMTU change in the network. A tool based on that proposal would help >> collect answers for that too. >> >> A tool implemented on top of that proposal would: >> >> - Implement the protocol in the proposal itself, to allocate a port and >> collect reports. >> - Implement as many PLPMTUD algorithms as possible on the client side. >> - Implement as many UDP protocol behaviors as possible on the client side (on >> the server side, the UDP packets are simply dropped). By behavior, I mean how >> regular packets are generated and sent to the other side (basically >> establishing size and timing patterns). >> >> Then the client can continuously try the cartesian product of the PLPMTUD >> algorithms and the UDP protocol patterns on a set of servers that implement >> the protocol proposed. With enough clients and servers we could get some hard >> numbers on the reality of PLPMTUD. > > I think this is an interesting research question that can greatly benefit future > evolution of the IETF recommendations. However, I don't see a need for > publication in an standards track document to document more then the basic > building blocks. And are you actually proposing any changes to the current > document that relates to the above? No, if I see some interest in that proposal (which is not the case currently) I'll write a separate draft. Thanks. -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
- [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-p… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Dan Wing
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-st… Marc Petit-Huguenin