Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides
Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Mon, 15 March 2021 10:47 UTC
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From: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
To: ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org
CC: Kevin.Smith=40vodafone.com@dmarc.ietf.org, ietf@bobbriscoe.net, tsvwg@ietf.org
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides
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Hi Ingemar, That depends. For WiFi, draft-ietf-tsvwg-nqb-05 specifies mapping L4S to a priority bearer based PHB. Then this stops to be an L4S problem. Id like to be clear about that issue and the question is, whether there will be a recommendation to assign L4S traffic to a 4G or 5G priority bearer. If your answer is no, why is there a draft specifying a priority bearer for WiFi L4S traffic? The underlying question is, to which extend does the end-to-end performance of L4S depend on suitable radio schedulers coupling two congestion control algos or queuing behaviours, like L4S standardises for fixed line schedulers. And how to operate a network, if these are absent. Regards, Ruediger Von: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von Ingemar Johansson S Gesendet: Montag, 15. März 2021 10:55 An: Smith, Kevin, Vodafone Group <Kevin.Smith=40vodafone.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>; tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org> Betreff: Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Hi Kevin, Bob + others CC Davide (thesis author) Yes, there was a test with the use of the dedicated bearer (DBS) and no-L4S. This is exemplified in section 5.3.6 in the thesis report. In short the outcome is that the background traffic will be severely affected. The reason is that the DBS scheduler (originally devised for e.g. VoLTE) prioritizes a bearer when the queue delay exceeds a given low threshold (e.g 10ms). And because SCReAM without L4S targets larger queue delay, the outcome is that it will hog an unreasonable share of the available resourses. What this means is that it is necessary to use some extra guard mechanism when prioritized bearers are used, but this is of course not only an L4S problem. /Ingemar * http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1484466 <http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1484466&dswid=-2512 > &dswid=-2512 From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> > On Behalf Of Smith, Kevin, Vodafone Group Sent: den 12 mars 2021 14:56 To: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net <mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net> >; tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Hi Ingemar, Just to ask, was there also a variant of the test with no L4S but with the dedicated bearer? Id be interested to see that comparison. @Bob, regarding UPF placement: the ability to virtualise network functions in 5G Core allows easier scaling of UPFs as required. All best, Kevin C2 General From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> > On Behalf Of Bob Briscoe Sent: 10 March 2021 17:41 To: tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> > Subject: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides CYBER SECURITY WARNING: This email is from an external source - be careful of attachments and links. Please follow the Cyber Code and report suspicious emails. tsvwg, Fwd'ing to list, with permission... In case anyone else had the same questions -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: RE: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:33:42 +0000 From: Ingemar Johansson S <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> To: Bob Briscoe <mailto:research@bobbriscoe.net> <research@bobbriscoe.net> CC: Ingemar Johansson S <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Hi Please see inline [IJ] /Ingemar -----Original Message----- From: Bob Briscoe <mailto:research@bobbriscoe.net> <research@bobbriscoe.net> Sent: den 10 mars 2021 14:46 To: Ingemar Johansson S <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Subject: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ingemar, #5 "Dedicated bearer / QoS flow for L4S traffic" Is this a per-app microflow or a per-user flow? [IJ] It is per-user flows, i.e each bearer can handle many flows And I think you'll need to explain where the UPF is typically located. I believe it's close to the edge, isn't i? Further into the network (beyond the UPF) these flows just become an aggregate of all the users. [IJ] The UPF is close to the edge somehow, it is hard to say for certain where they are located, they can be real close to the base stations or >100km away. #6 Question: Do you have any feel for qDelay & throughput if a "Classic ECN AQM" like PIE or CoDel was used? [IJ] No, it was not studied in the master thesis work. #6 - #11: Is the DBS scheduler between users, or between flows? [IJ] Per user (bearer) #12: L4S is meant to greatly reduce the throughput-delay tradeoff, and in our results it did. Any idea why not here? I guess, with video, it's the 'getting up to speed' fast problem (that I'm working on with Joakim). [IJ] One reason is the large variation in frame sizes that video coders generate. Another is that SCReAM paces out the video frames as 50% higher rate than the nominal video target bitrate. This pacing overhead can be configured lower but then the video frames (RTP packets) are more likely to become queued up in the sender instead. I really believe that it can be done better, was hoping to have time to improve SCReAM in this respect but the work hours fly in other directions . With that said. Also a DCTCP flow (with L4S) marking will get a reduced throughput compared to e.g a Cubic flow (without L4S) over cellular. The reason is that the large buffers with Cubic absorb the fast fading dips in LTE and NR. With DCTCP + L4S some extra headroom is needed to avoid queue build up. Bob -- __________________________________________________________ ______ Bob Briscoe https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=828d3ddc- dd1604f1-828d7d47-8692dc8284cb-1ab58b5eb7943901&q=1&e=b0160f51- 6418-41ea-9221-efaca6b7cec8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbobbriscoe.net%2F
- [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Smith, Kevin, Vodafone Group
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Qs on your 5G L4S slides Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: Qs on your 5G L4S slides Ingemar Johansson S