Re: [tsvwg] David Black (individual) on safety of L4S for the Internet

Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> Fri, 08 May 2020 22:37 UTC

Return-Path: <chromatix99@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318453A1043 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 May 2020 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.848
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pB5lKOLlEYA6 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 May 2020 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D67A3A1034 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 May 2020 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id w20so3351978ljj.0 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=YNssYpB34rJ3Qc86/aeXhUM7S2QbpbUL5Enp+N5IH4s=; b=RI6Oa8kYf4KRRrrF/CIL41mIsKLz0ur3b6TkkYcc/HPSzeNTBg1hm8+napcit2ZPrY Qsxn0FJoBG+fI5xFXXCvRg4bspriFY0b3n14NUxzjGucgNIx4y1CxW22vsKp7fHiuKYW N2Cp7VCEPFioWx7k0HpuCTfUqhkg0SUX2JqhWMzKci0rnPQBBBhj5adCt35s4TOSYLiP JG+QOfaSsPCkEU5nt21bKypHieghHRGaE8Kig2uepaSkyXbtPGiwRnE8nnCn8rvZnMwh oFswNpgqkXMnt6TOS17mqhjF5nRPTOXHVawoVGnvff8fsmSXBUrgcBs4sOFanIGxQTNx BmMg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=YNssYpB34rJ3Qc86/aeXhUM7S2QbpbUL5Enp+N5IH4s=; b=iwSyv8E//hWGqL8Y74biO7vR8SBs3vYU12YcgbSQJblgIOJm0HLou5ZVEOiJoOVldM E9xUdRzHvGu8tHdvOpmu5k8qUPI1Hyg5qphHmYtV0VUAocCctdPkkL5BMjBQC09CnW5g f5Lp/tR8oLdqnzKMpCfL25STZcP5n4NY8y/JBIWZH+uGDpL4bk/oZ15HxgjrT3Kv1Y8c M0/NSBIQNHR96EEoNG+U/YizdkUDBvsEUE5axqCHPjngv3iaoqh9+aCwK9IfTiEaRrJc vCD4ibY3ZhZx8OpUOc6umu2/12UUl5U92lIfd/dYOtjqDqMenJobPolaA8Dd3DSMi+8C 6Icw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Jhuecg57B3yjbFOeZga+4fVo2REwq3L4sk/w23ABA20s8O4Z1 es15WI8bksc5v3pOLsD95oDCdAmm
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw92tF8XbWXs9p9SJbQj4yFvGY1ZP4Qf6SN1XibMuTXLX/gxCV/GQ08OZXaWE6WilRMOybeXw==
X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7d0c:: with SMTP id y12mr2745566ljc.18.1588977464549; Fri, 08 May 2020 15:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-235-192-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.235.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm2202110ljh.83.2020.05.08.15.37.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 May 2020 15:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\))
From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CADVnQymXFe7o4M_GgwqxDP0x5UsAKE+1oQcavyDTF04gP-S34Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 01:37:42 +0300
Cc: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6E67B51E-6F0A-4BC9-9A77-478F6C5B1222@gmail.com>
References: <MN2PR19MB4045DBC270D70DECE5F2B4AC83A20@MN2PR19MB4045.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CADVnQymXFe7o4M_GgwqxDP0x5UsAKE+1oQcavyDTF04gP-S34Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Neal Cardwell <ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/Z9m7xrOwmq-F6e-lhgopeQCydVQ>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] David Black (individual) on safety of L4S for the Internet
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 22:37:48 -0000

> On 9 May, 2020, at 1:04 am, Neal Cardwell <ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
>> Current practice is not to mix DCTCP-like traffic (1/p-class congestion
>> control) with TCP-like traffic (1/sqrt(p)-class congestion control, e.g.,
>> NewReno) in the same queue because the DCTCP-like traffic outcompetes the
>> TCP-like traffic to the point of starvation of the latter.
> 
> For my education, does someone have a pointer to the experiments
> underlying that description of DCTCP outcompeting Reno/CUBIC? I'm not
> aware of that being a fundamental property of DCTCP. The DCTCP
> algorithm specifies a Reno-style response to loss -
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8257#section-3.5 - and has Reno-style
> increase functions as well. So the algorithm should be Reno friendly,
> AFAIK.

The problem with DCTCP is not its response to loss, though there was a serious bug that apparently went unnoticed for a long time.  Rather, it has to do with the response to CE marks applied by an AQM.  We can analyse this qualitatively and show a clear difference which will always result in severe unfairness.  This is also easy to confirm by experiment.

Assume that a single queue exists at the bottleneck, with a single ECN AQM which does not discriminate between flows and classes of traffic.  This queue and AQM are shared by diverse traffic flows, some of which adhere to RFC3168 and RFC-8511, some of which are Not-ECT, and some of which are DCTCP.  The Not-ECT packets will, in accordance with RFC-3168, be dropped if they would have been marked CE.

The steady state for both Not-ECT and RFC-3168/8511 transports (which include NewReno and CUBIC) is multiple RTTs between CE marks.  Each round-trip containing a CE mark (or a packet loss) causes a Multiplicative Decrease to between 50% and 85% of the previous congestion window, as defined by RFC-8511 and earlier well-known specifications.  It then takes several RTTs to grow the congestion window to its previous value, where a further congestion signal can be expected.

The steady state for DCTCP is two CE marks per round-trip.  Each CE mark causes half a segment to be subtracted from the congestion window, on average.  This is qualitatively different from the response specified by RFC-8511.  In particular, to obtain the 50% reduction to a single CE mark that NewReno implements, an entire congestion window's worth of segments must be marked CE by the AQM.

Two results should be obvious from the above.  First, an AQM response that causes RFC-8511 compliant transports to back off substantially may cause very little response from DCTCP.  Second, an AQM response that produces the steady state in DCTCP will also apply CE marks (or packet loss) to almost every round-trip of other competing flows, which will cause conventional TCPs' congestion windows to collapse to very small values.

That is why DCTCP is specified for deployment only in controlled environments where its interactions with conventional TCP can be strictly managed.

 - Jonathan Morton