Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd)
"Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Fri, 01 July 2005 03:48 UTC
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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:46:51 -0400
From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>
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Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd)
References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de>
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Frank Ellermann wrote: > Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > >>5. Agents MAY remove comments from References. > > > BTW, are you sure that we want this in USEFOR ? The proper > way to generate and trim References is in USEPRO. And if we > move this issue to USEPRO we could combine Bruce's 4th point > "delete SHOULD NOT" with your 5th point "agents MAY remove". > > All we then need is a hint that the separator used to be SP, > now it's CFWS, and that's not the same as 2822 [CFWS]. > > Here's an idea of 4+5 in USEFOR-05 > > === OLD === > o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS. > > o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause > interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, > but MUST be accepted. > > > references = "References:" SP [CFWS] msg-id *(CFWS msg-id) > [CFWS] CRLF > === NEW === > o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS, typically a > space or FWS. > > references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF > msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] CRLF > === END === > > Your point 5 going to USEPRO, is that okay ? Bye, Frank > USEFOR can CFWS in ABNF without limit, but in USEPRO have this idea.... Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted, and MAY be removed. I know, "MUST accept+MAY remove" is probably unheard of, but that MAY puts "innovators" on notice that they can't expect comments to propagate, and helps implement a messy place that XSS scripting could happen in web UIs. Should a web UI be forced to accept (and display?) a hacked up References field in an attempt to XSS? There have been too many clever XSS and "response splitting" style attacks to think that all HTML that gets a green-light in one browser is not a XSS in another. Sure, avoiding XSS is a problem for a web agent to handle CFWS in any header fields, but References is likely to go through an additional level of processing that gets A HREFs added (to link back to precursors.) No, I don't like it that there might be two non-identical copies of an article propagating, but I suppose you can limit the MAY remove to non-transport agents. Yes, this is probably a weird idea, but please find a real reason to dismiss it, not just that it is weird to write a "MUST accept+MAY remove." Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j615Sx3c025869 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j615Sxc9025865 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j615SuSp025757 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j615SgF1012475; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j615SgFN012473; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. In-Reply-To: <IIwv9K.4qw@clerew.man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050701011732.11184B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Charles Lindsey wrote: > Legacy software does all sorts of things which we don't want them to do > any more. > Therefore, we write our standard so that those legacy implementations > become non-compliant (because that is a good carrot to encourage them to > be upgraded). > OTOH, of course, we so arrange things (by making transitional/fallback > arrangements where necessary) that the legacy software can continue to > interoperate at least for the medium term... Exactly. It is important that legacy software continue to *work*, because there is a lot of it around, and even with the best intentions, getting even a large fraction of it upgraded will take a while. But there is no reason to declare it compliant, and indeed every reason not to. Backward compatibility is a technical issue, not a compliance issue. It does not require us to permanently endorse every old mistake, only to provide a transition path, so that software can move toward future full compliance while remaining interoperable with the old mistakes for now. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614cEZu080148 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j614cE0I080147 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614cDBu080141 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DoDAM-0000ET-6p for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:30:14 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:30:14 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:30:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Typo (was: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT?) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:36:48 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 8 Message-ID: <42C4C860.119B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42C4BCAB.9030505@mibsoftware.com> <42C4C419.66B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> >>> o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS, >>> typically a space or FWS. >>> >>> references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF >>> msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] CRLF msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614MUnQ066899 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j614MUkt066898 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j614MSsr066834 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DoCvP-0007ag-Eq for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:14:47 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:14:47 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:14:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 06:18:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 37 Message-ID: <42C4C419.66B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42C4BCAB.9030505@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: >> === NEW === >> o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS, typically a >> space or FWS. >> >> references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF >> msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] CRLF >> === END === >> Your point 5 going to USEPRO, is that okay ? > USEFOR can CFWS in ABNF without limit, but in USEPRO have > this idea.... > Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause > interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be > generated, but MUST be accepted, and MAY be removed. > I know, "MUST accept+MAY remove" is probably unheard of, No, it's almost like RFC 2821 about source-routes "MUST accept, SHOULD ignore, MAY respect". > this is probably a weird idea, but please find a real reason > to dismiss it I've no reason to dismiss it, we already discussed "MAY remove" in conjunction with trimming. Charles started a quest for the "semantical content" (= no comments, but then we stumbled over the problem with backslashes within <no-fold-2822-crap>). And somebody else also wanted to strip the comments in an attempt to stay within our obscure unfolded length limit 998. Strip comments and reinject, that could be evil, I've no idea how stuff like a signed header works. But you didn't propose to strip and reinject, so that point is probably moot. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j613l3Di039723 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j613l3Al039722 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j613l2KQ039714 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-165-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.165]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j613kngt006721 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C4BCAB.9030505@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:46:51 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: > Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > >>5. Agents MAY remove comments from References. > > > BTW, are you sure that we want this in USEFOR ? The proper > way to generate and trim References is in USEPRO. And if we > move this issue to USEPRO we could combine Bruce's 4th point > "delete SHOULD NOT" with your 5th point "agents MAY remove". > > All we then need is a hint that the separator used to be SP, > now it's CFWS, and that's not the same as 2822 [CFWS]. > > Here's an idea of 4+5 in USEFOR-05 > > === OLD === > o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS. > > o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause > interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, > but MUST be accepted. > > > references = "References:" SP [CFWS] msg-id *(CFWS msg-id) > [CFWS] CRLF > === NEW === > o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS, typically a > space or FWS. > > references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF > msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] CRLF > === END === > > Your point 5 going to USEPRO, is that okay ? Bye, Frank > USEFOR can CFWS in ABNF without limit, but in USEPRO have this idea.... Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted, and MAY be removed. I know, "MUST accept+MAY remove" is probably unheard of, but that MAY puts "innovators" on notice that they can't expect comments to propagate, and helps implement a messy place that XSS scripting could happen in web UIs. Should a web UI be forced to accept (and display?) a hacked up References field in an attempt to XSS? There have been too many clever XSS and "response splitting" style attacks to think that all HTML that gets a green-light in one browser is not a XSS in another. Sure, avoiding XSS is a problem for a web agent to handle CFWS in any header fields, but References is likely to go through an additional level of processing that gets A HREFs added (to link back to precursors.) No, I don't like it that there might be two non-identical copies of an article propagating, but I suppose you can limit the MAY remove to non-transport agents. Yes, this is probably a weird idea, but please find a real reason to dismiss it, not just that it is weird to write a "MUST accept+MAY remove." Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6136e96011662 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6136enn011661 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:06:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6136cu2011631 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DoBjx-0007ow-4G for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:58:53 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:58:53 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:58:53 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:54:51 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 34 Message-ID: <42C4B07B.793C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > 5. Agents MAY remove comments from References. BTW, are you sure that we want this in USEFOR ? The proper way to generate and trim References is in USEPRO. And if we move this issue to USEPRO we could combine Bruce's 4th point "delete SHOULD NOT" with your 5th point "agents MAY remove". All we then need is a hint that the separator used to be SP, now it's CFWS, and that's not the same as 2822 [CFWS]. Here's an idea of 4+5 in USEFOR-05 === OLD === o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS. o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. references = "References:" SP [CFWS] msg-id *(CFWS msg-id) [CFWS] CRLF === NEW === o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS, typically a space or FWS. references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] CRLF === END === Your point 5 going to USEPRO, is that okay ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j612GmJL082175 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j612GmIB082174 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:16:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j612Gk8O082157 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DoAxR-0000Ai-0n for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:08:45 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:08:45 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:08:45 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:09:25 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 61 Message-ID: <42C4A5D5.2B9B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C47A7B.767C@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506302022.50782.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > To borrow a statement from another list, we also don't have > a general rule against drinking gasoline. Sometimes the > obvious does NOT need to be stated. In that case it's not so obvious: We know that some UAs have difficulties with excessively long References. We know that some servers reject excessively long References. We know that I might be able to trim References manually, but we're even less confident about UAs. We have a simple followup-and-trim algorithm, but we're far from sure that all UAs get it right in the presence of comments. And of course we know this... > msg-id = [CFWS] "<" id-left "@" id-right ">" [CFWS] ...and so the implementation strategy "grab <msg-id> content and add it to the old <msg-id-list> separated by CFWS, then trim it" might introduce [CFWS] found in the <msg-id>. Stupid or not, shit happens. In that case it's not really broken, it is only stupid, potentially causing harm for the next (old) UA that didn't expect the legal [CFWS] => the first UA SHOULD NOT. > BTW, there is no msg-id-list, In some cases where I disagree with Charles' ABNF I use my own: references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF msg-id-list = [CFWS] *( msg-id CFWS ) msg-id [CFWS] > -list rules usually imply comma separators A list can be: item *( delim item ) or: *( item delim ) item Among other ideas, let's not start with LISP. And delim can be what it takes to separate items, if you're lucky nothing at all, in fact this _could_ work for a msg-id-list, but we want a CFWS. Check out <path-list> (no comma), <key-value-list> (semicolon, in the SPF-1 RFC proposed here to get <injection-info> right), I won't dig through more RFCs to find lists not using a comma. > I find it hard to get worked up about a lack of second-hand > interoperability problems related to comments which are > rarely inserted in a References field. Not rarely, it used to be NEVER based on s-o-1036, and we want to change this adopting the RfC 2822 format. Carefully and not wholesale, e.g. "we" (TINW) want a CFWS instead of 2822 [CFWS]. > in the grand scheme of things a > you-don't-have-to-parse-obs-references-because-MUST=MAY > contortion is going to do a great deal more harm than a > comment. Well, that's the law of unintended consequences > for you. That's "when Bruce starts to rant there are no more serious bugs and showstoppers" for me... <gd&r> Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6127mu9077917 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j6127m27077916 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j6127lN3077901 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-165-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.165]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j6127cgt026127 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C4A56D.2010503@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:07:41 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On Thu June 30 2005 15:15, Frank Ellermann wrote: > >>Bruce Lilly wrote: >> >> >>>the only issue appears to be that some UAs (no other >>>software has need to parse a References field) are not >>>compliant with the specifications >> >>That's not exactly the point: >> >>A few of these "UAs" can be Web interfaces trying to display >>some sort of "threads" using (among others) the References. >> >>Some of these broken UAs can mangle the References in wild and >>wonderful ways causing more wonderful side effects with other >>UAs, which can normally handle all syntactically well-formed >>References. > > > Do you mean when creating a f^H(avoiding controversial term) response? > If so, and the UA/posting agent/(controversial word) agent generates > invalid syntax, then the injection agent ought to reject that response > article, avoiding damage. If not, then how does such mangled content > get from one UA to another? > > I believe that rejecting invalid articles at the injection agent is > consistent with WG consensus, though USEPRO section 7.2 doesn't > actually say that an injection agent may reject a non-conforming > article, even though it is tasked with ensuring conformance. > Perhaps forwarding to a moderator (permitted as the sole alternative > to injection)... but I digress. > > We are after all talking about parenthesized comments, which > have always been part of RFC 822 syntax and aren't exactly rocket > science. > > >>>that isn't an interoperability problem of the sort described >>>in BCP 14. >> >>If one UA gets it wrong and that causes another UA to crash it >>is only a SNAFU. But if the crshing UA is a Web interface or >>another piece of software running in unattended mode it's bad. > > > I think the answer is to reject non-articles at the earliest > opportunity (injection agent). I.e. prevent the rogue UA/posting > agent/whatever from causing damage; the injection agent enforces the > syntax rules. > > >>>s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by >>>non-conforming parsers/ would be more accurate >> >>IBTD, it's about conforming parsers confronted with the invalid >>input caused by another non-conforming parser elsewhere. > > > In that hypothetical case, it's not the comment that's causing a > problem, it's something else. So it would be incorrect to say > that the comment(s) "cause interoperability problems". The > "something else", whatever that might be, either results in a > syntactically valid field or not. If not, then it along with > the article containing it is rejected (or forwarded to some > moderator) instead of being injected. If the field is > syntactically valid, what is the problem? > > >>If >>what you said boils down to a "don't replace the SHOULD NOT >>by a MUST NOT" I'd support it. > > > What it boils down to is: "interoperability problems" implies "MUST NOT". > The original suggestion was to therefore replace SHOULD NOT with MUST > NOT. If (and only if) I can be convinced that there really is an > interoperability problem caused by a mere comment, I'll support that > change. I don't see such an interoperability problem, so my counter- > proposal is to avoid the conflict by replacing "interoperability > problems" with something more accurate, and I have suggested *specific* > text for that replacement, with some sort of relevant argument to > support that suggestion (the argument is NOT "because unripe bananas > are green"). I'm ambivalent about leaving the "SHOULD NOT"; comments > are for human consumption, and few people care about reading > References fields, even if their UA displays them -- of course adding > human-readable comments that are unlikely to be read isn't a great > idea. For that matter, the entire text could be elided; lots of > non-conforming UAs will misparse lots of things causing no perceptible > problems elsewhere (provided injection agents reject invalid syntax > that such a UA might generate in a response) -- if we add text to cover > every such possibility we'll be back to 115 pages, at least if the WG > stays active for another 8 years so any masochists with the stomach for > it can do so... > > I guess we have at least the following options: > 1. no change > 2. s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ > 3. s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by non-conforming > parsers/ > 4. elide the entire text > > Although I suggested the third option, on further consideration I'd like > to switch to the fourth (with the third as a fallback) Based on recent discussion, and after seeing how long this went unresolved, I want to suggest a fifth alternative that takes care of one of my concerns that people start putting structured comments in references, or start using them to XSS web interfaces.... 5. Agents MAY remove comments from References. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j611nNgJ065402 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j611nNOD065396 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j611nMqa065387 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E93B29921; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j611nH1T006348(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:49:20 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j611nGtC006347(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:49:17 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:49:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301914.36651.blilly@erols.com> <42C49381.4C4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C49381.4C4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506302149.13144.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 20:51, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > doesn't address (no pun intended) where IP address literals > > are or are not allowed. > > It was based on Charles' revised syntax for a <path-identity>: > > | path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) > | *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) / > | IPv4address / IPv6address ; see [RFC 3986] That's inconsistent with Harald's "diagnostic stuff". > > That text (and the draft ABNF) implies that > > Path: MISMATCH!example.net!tail-entry > > is a valid complete field, which might not be what is > > intended; the text doesn't say that there needs to be > > anything to the left of MISMATCH. > > Then it was wrong, "!MISMATCH!" is the same idea as "!!", only > for a mismatch. In my hardcore nitpicking mode it should be: I guess it's up to somebody who cares for the newfangled "feature" to open a ticket proposing a specific text change... > path-identity "!" path-identity "!MISMATCH!" path-list > > a!b!MISMATHCH!c!...!not-for-mail as in "I got this starting > with c!... but I think it should be b, anyway I am a, enjoy". > > Or should this be a!!b!MISMATCH!c!...!not-for-mail (?) Bye. Good question; sounds reasonable to me. Anyway, I'm waiting for resolution of the issues before ABNF-wrangling. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610sIFd034028 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j610sI1v034027 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610sHhE034013 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do9ff-0002N5-8h for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:46:19 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:46:19 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:46:19 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:51:13 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 58 Message-ID: <42C49381.4C4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IIwxny.5D6@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C467D8.72C5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301914.36651.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > That still permits foo!!tail-entry, foo!MISMATCH!tail-entry Yes, and I wasn't consequent with the [FWS], next attempt: path-list = [FWS] path-identity [FWS] *( path-delimiter [FWS] path-identity [FWS] ) ( "!" [ "POSTED!" ] ) [FWS] tail-entry [FWS] path-delimiter = "!" [[ "MISMATCH" / "POSTED" ] "!" ] That's a bit convoluted, maybe a simple list of delimiters is better, see above: ( "!" / "!POSTED!" ) [FWS] tail-entry [FWS] path-delimiter = "!" / "!!" / "!MISMATCH!" / "!POSTED!" > doesn't address (no pun intended) where IP address literals > are or are not allowed. It was based on Charles' revised syntax for a <path-identity>: | path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) | *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) / | IPv4address / IPv6address ; see [RFC 3986] > I made some quick notes this morning: > path-identity "!POSTED" needs to be a group Okay, path-identity "!POSTED!" tail-entry catches the normal case, path-identity "!POSTED!" path-list is for reinjection. > path-identity "!!" path-identity needs to be a group Also okay, I have path-identity "!!" path-list, and no way to combine it with a tail-entry. > "MISMATCH!" path-identity needs to be a group Dito as path-identity "!MISMATCH!" path-list, not with a tail. > That text (and the draft ABNF) implies that > Path: MISMATCH!example.net!tail-entry > is a valid complete field, which might not be what is > intended; the text doesn't say that there needs to be > anything to the left of MISMATCH. Then it was wrong, "!MISMATCH!" is the same idea as "!!", only for a mismatch. In my hardcore nitpicking mode it should be: path-identity "!" path-identity "!MISMATCH!" path-list a!b!MISMATHCH!c!...!not-for-mail as in "I got this starting with c!... but I think it should be b, anyway I am a, enjoy". Or should this be a!!b!MISMATCH!c!...!not-for-mail (?) Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610N4TQ005775 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j610N4pQ005774 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610N4Qs005767 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BEE29993; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j610MvGA005915(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:23:00 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j610Mt70005914(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:22:56 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:22:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> <42C47A7B.767C@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C47A7B.767C@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506302022.50782.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 19:04, Frank Ellermann wrote: > We have no general rule stating that unnecessary comments > in a field not designed to be displayed are a stupid idea. To borrow a statement from another list, we also don't have a general rule against drinking gasoline. Sometimes the obvious does NOT need to be stated. > IIRC 2822 only says "if you must do this use at least the > end of a syntactical unit" (or similar), that doesn't help > for a <msg-id-list>, the only unit in sight is a <msg-id>. 2822 says (in accordance with RFC 2234 sect. 3.1): msg-id = [CFWS] "<" id-left "@" id-right ">" [CFWS] which explicitly says where CFWS may appear. BTW, there is no msg-id-list, -list rules usually imply comma separators, and there are none in References or In-Reply-To. 822/2822 specify that comments are semantically equivalent to a space character, and a space character is a typical separator between msg-ids. > Without a general rule removing the entire text (your 4) > is not among my preferences. I find it hard to get worked up about a lack of second-hand interoperability problems related to comments which are rarely inserted in a References field. The only UAs I know of that do that are the ones that used to put (badly broken) phrase syntax (which is MUST NOT generate in 2822) in References fields. Those broken messages are still around, and in the grand scheme of things a you-don't-have-to-parse-obs-references-because-MUST=MAY contortion is going to do a great deal more harm than a comment. Well, that's the law of unintended consequences for you. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610CXOZ095466 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j610CXgG095460 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j610CVoX095409 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do91U-0005mM-Vc for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:04:49 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:04:48 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:04:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:10:30 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 50 Message-ID: <42C489F6.17AE@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301159.20031.blilly@erols.com> <Xns9685EA29A9D5grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <200506301937.20039.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > o there exist archived messages Sure, no reason to consider e.g. the A-News format. > o combined mail/news UAs (the norm; Communicator, > Thunderbird, Outlook Express, pine, etc.) need > to deal with standard 2822 semantics for the > standard 2- and 3-letter zone abbreviations. Sorting by date, yes, but in that case "MUST accept" doesn't necessarily imply "interpret correctly". > o of course, "GMT" was also declared obsolete four > years ago... Unlike the rest of this zoo, that was declared obsolete 11 (eleven) years ago: | timezone = "UT" / "GMT" | / ( "+" / "-" ) hh mm [ space "(" zone-name ")" ] [...] | This is a restricted subset of the MAIL date format. [...] | The timezone name in parentheses, if present, is a comment; | software MUST ignore it, except that reading agents might | wish to display it to the reader. Timezone names other than | "UT" and "GMT" MUST appear only in the comment. | | NOTE: Attempts to deal with a full set of timezone names | have all foundered on the vast number of such names in use | and the duplications (for example, there are at least FOUR | different timezones called "EST" by somebody). Even the | limited set of North American zone names authorized by MAIL | is subject to confusion and misinterpretation. Hence the | flat ban on non-UT timezone names except as comments. | | NOTE: RFC 1036 specified that use of GMT (aka UT, UTC) was | preferred. However, the local time (in the poster's | timezone) is arguably information of possible interest to | the reader, and this requires some indication of the | poster's timezone. Numeric offsets are an unambiguous way | of doing this, and their use was indeed sanctioned by RFC | 1036 (that is, this is a change of preference only). Now is it already time again to go through the WG Charter, find s-o-1036 as relevant, etc., the whole drill for every minor point with a minor difference from RFC 2822 ? Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UNbVYS061013 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UNbVvY061012 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UNbUbR060960 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFD22999E; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UNbRkO005674(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:27 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UNbNCe005673(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:25 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Graham Drabble <usenet05@drabble.me.uk> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301159.20031.blilly@erols.com> <Xns9685EA29A9D5grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> In-Reply-To: <Xns9685EA29A9D5grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301937.20039.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 18:01, Graham Drabble wrote: > FWIW I'm quite happy to allow them to do so. Nothing critical is likely > to break because something has the time +-12hrs so making people code > exceptions for things that were declared obsolete (and MUST NOT > generate) four years a go seems silly. A few points to bear in mind: o if we paid due attention to backward compatibility, existing software will be largely conforming, and we're not making people code exceptions because the 822 2- and 3-letter zone abbreviations have long been required o there exist archived messages (e.g. Frank's favorite non-Netnews but news-like mailing list interface gmane). Many are more than four years old o while an Injection-Date field could not have been generated 4 years ago (as it was not then, and is not yet, standardized), that doesn't apply to Date, Expires, etc. There remains the possibility of a special exemption for Injection-Date. o FAQs and other old material may be periodically reposted with a new Injection-Date field, but with a Date field corresponding to the last change. That applies to things like a response to "can somebody please post a copy of..." requests also. o combined mail/news UAs (the norm; Communicator, Thunderbird, Outlook Express, pine, etc.) need to deal with standard 2822 semantics for the standard 2- and 3-letter zone abbreviations. o of course, "GMT" was also declared obsolete four years ago... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UNEnsi036302 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UNEntb036301 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UNEmCa036267 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EDC29935; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UNEiL0005327(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:14:46 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UNEgLX005326(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:14:35 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IIwxny.5D6@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C467D8.72C5@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C467D8.72C5@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301914.36651.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 17:44, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Some of Bruce's points are not yet covered, MISMATCH!MISMATCH > etc., maybe we have to declare these beasts as special cases > of a path-delimiter, brain-storming: > > > path-list = [FWS] path-identity > *( path-delimiter [FWS] path-identity [FWS] ) > path-delimiter tail-entry [FWS] > > path-delimiter = "!" / "!!" / "!MISMATCH!" / "!POSTED!" > > No more path-keyword. Does that solve Bruce's problem ? Bye That still permits foo!!tail-entry, foo!MISMATCH!tail-entry, and doesn't address (no pun intended) where IP address literals are or are not allowed. I made some quick notes this morning: path-identity "!POSTED" needs to be a group path-identity "!!" path-identity needs to be a group "MISMATCH!" path-identity needs to be a group based on the text description following the ABNF in the usefor draft. That text (and the draft ABNF) implies that Path: MISMATCH!example.net!tail-entry is a valid complete field, which might not be what is intended; the text doesn't say that there needs to be anything to the left of MISMATCH. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UN81Rm028047 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UN81xS028046 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UN7wCS028000 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do80k-0007FL-CG for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:59:58 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:59:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:59:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 01:04:27 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 29 Message-ID: <42C47A7B.767C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > I guess we have at least the following options: > 1. no change > 2. s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ > 3. s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by > non-conforming parsers/ > 4. elide the entire text > Although I suggested the third option, on further > consideration I'd like to switch to the fourth (with the > third as a fallback) We have no general rule stating that unnecessary comments in a field not designed to be displayed are a stupid idea. IIRC 2822 only says "if you must do this use at least the end of a syntactical unit" (or similar), that doesn't help for a <msg-id-list>, the only unit in sight is a <msg-id>. Without a general rule removing the entire text (your 4) is not among my preferences. It's also very different from Forrest's MUST NOT (your 2). If that would be only between you and me we'd end up with your 3rd option. From Harald's "hat on" POV it's probably "no change" (1). Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UMJbmP074551 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UMJbeu074549 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ID-77355.user.dfncis.de ([82.133.101.159]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5UMJZIg074542 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet05@drabble.me.uk) Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (192.168.254.2) with news-to-mail ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:01:09 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. From: Graham Drabble <usenet05@drabble.me.uk> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506301159.20031.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:01:08 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns9685EA29A9D5grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 30 Jun 2005 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote in news:200506301159.20031.blilly@erols.com: > My interpretation is that some WG members might favor that for > Injection-Date specifically (although no text has been proposed > even though there is an open ticket for that purpose), but I see > no discussion that explicitly supports interpreting "EST" as > unknown in the legacy fields. FWIW I'm quite happy to allow them to do so. Nothing critical is likely to break because something has the time +-12hrs so making people code exceptions for things that were declared obsolete (and MUST NOT generate) four years a go seems silly. My view would be to go with something like: Agents MAY accept the obs-zone syntax specified in RFC2822 section 4.3 but MUST NOT generate it. Any zone that the agent is unable to parse SHOULD be treated as -0000. This way even if they don't follow the MAY accept they SHOULD still get GMT right. -- Graham Drabble http://www.drabble.me.uk/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UM9xXQ063660 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UM9wkB063658 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:09:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UM9wg8063584 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5UM9pDC022593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:09:51 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506301458280.21152@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >To describe a substantial part of your audience as "irrelevant" He didn't describe a substantial part of our audience as irrelevant. He ("Forrest J. Cavalier III") said: ]...BUT WE HAVE NO CONCERN for people who refuse to read and ]understand NORMATIVE references. We can totally ignore such people when ]writing, because they are irrelevant. People who refuse to read normative references have no business implementing news software according to our standard, and are thus not our audience. Specifically, when we explicitely point people to RFC2822 as a basis for our standard, those who refuse to read RFC2822 are irrelevant. We cannot force them to read anything, but neither are we bound to consider them when we write the standard. If your attitude is that we must accept every person who refuses to read RFC2822 and hold their tiny little hands through the process of implementing news software, then you have no business editing a news standard. You will be too likely to stuff in extraneous material and rewrite perfectly acceptable material in your goal to protect the ignorant from themselves. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULwwvJ051926 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULwwSw051925 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULwusI051902 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-202-57-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.202.57]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ULwlgt016405; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C46B18.5070707@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:58:48 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> <IIt1Cv.or@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C2919D.70301@mibsoftware.com> <IIwvwo.4xu@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIwvwo.4xu@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <42C2919D.70301@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > > >>Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >>>I pointed out that in the real world implementors and other readers DO >>>take shortcute when reading documents. That is a fact of life. You have to >>>live with it. > > >>No I do not have to live with it. As has been said so many times: we >>need a clear, complete, unambiguous specification that is as easy to read >>as possible, BUT WE HAVE NO CONCERN for people who refuse to read and >>understand NORMATIVE references. We can totally ignore such people when >>writing, because they are irrelevant. > > > To describe a substantial part of your audience as "irrelevant" is no way > to write any document, whether technical or otherwise. > > If that is your attitude, then we will just have to agree to differ. > No, we don't have to agree to differ on this either. I request the chairs issue a clear statement that we will use RFC2119 imperatives and when used we expect ALL implementors to understand them as defined in RFC2119. We will also expect them to understand English. I request the chairs issue a clear statement that we expect all implementors claiming conformance are expected to read and understand NORMATIVE references. (I thought we already had that declaration of the obvious, but guess not...) I request the chairs issue a clear statement that we will repeat and highlight text from NORMATIVE references only when we have reason to believe that our draft text is so difficult to write clearly that it is likely to mislead an implementor into violating a normative reference. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULrr6T045334 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULrr9k045333 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULrqK7045311 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5ULrp0F016104 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:52 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 60273E7CC5; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. In-Reply-To: <42C467AA.2070106@mibsoftware.com> (Forrest J. Cavalier, III's message of "Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:44:10 -0400") References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C467AA.2070106@mibsoftware.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:53:51 -0700 Message-ID: <87irzva4uo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J Cavalier <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > Sure, Anyone who writes or maintains date parsers will tell you there is > all sorts of cruft that you see in Date fields. That's why INN's date > parser is written in yacc, and at 500+ lines it's a nightmare to > modify/understand. Who wants to touch that? Thankfully, it's not that bad any more. It's now pure C, and including the code to parse NNTP dates ("20050630 174410" sorts of things that are completely different than what we're talking about) and code to generate the Date header, it's now: 869 288 |date.c ---------------- 869 288 total lines/statements 258 lines had comments 29.7 % 38 comments are inline -4.4 % 93 lines were blank 10.7 % 18 lines for preprocessor 2.1 % 538 lines containing code 61.9 % 869 total lines 100.0 % The yacc stuff couldn't even handle the full RFC 2822 obs syntax, and allowed all sorts of nonsense that really no one should ever use in a Usenet Date (and no one does). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULkY9n036298 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULkYto036297 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:46:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULkXnk036284 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:46:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do6kA-0005P8-8b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:38:51 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:38:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:38:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:44:56 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 57 Message-ID: <42C467D8.72C5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IIwxny.5D6@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > So please can we be as brief as possioble in USEFOR, and > point to USEPRO for the gory details Hear, hear! SCNR > the term <path-identity> needs to include everything that > may occur in the list, except the two keywords ...or the <tail-entry>. > So it would be better as: [...] ACK. > Here, now, is the text currently proposed for USEPRO. [...] >| To ensure that a <path-identity> provides a unique identity >| for the news-server concerned, it SHOULD be one of: How about "it MUST be" ? Or even simply "it is" ?!? [...] >| The FQDN of a news-server is "mailable" if its >| administrators can be reached by email using both of the >| forms "usenet@<FQDN>" and "news@<FQDN>", in conformity >| with [RFC 2142]. Maybe say 'forms "usenet@" and "news@" at the FQDN represented by the <path-identity>, in conformity with [RFC 2142].' Issue: I'm not sure about using <FQDN> if that's no term in the ABNF. >| "abuse@<FQDN>" MUST also be available Dito, '"abuse@" address MUST' etc., if your <FQDN> doesn't fly. >> Does this make sense? > Not yet :-( Getting much better, limiting ":" to IPv6 is a step forward. Some of Bruce's points are not yet covered, MISMATCH!MISMATCH etc., maybe we have to declare these beasts as special cases of a path-delimiter, brain-storming: path-list = [FWS] path-identity *( path-delimiter [FWS] path-identity [FWS] ) path-delimiter tail-entry [FWS] path-delimiter = "!" / "!!" / "!MISMATCH!" / "!POSTED!" No more path-keyword. Does that solve Bruce's problem ? Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULiGpP033594 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULiG6f033593 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:44:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULiGKt033574 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-202-57-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.202.57]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ULi8MB001358 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C467AA.2070106@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:44:10 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > If anyone but Bruce wants to argue in favour of recognizing *all* timezones > mentioned in RFC 2822, which is the logical consequence of Bruce's > argument, please speak up now. Harald, you misinterpreted silence as lack of thought on this issue. You are way to quick to declare "no action needed" in this case. I'm mostly with Bruce. I object to specific text mentioning allowing GMT to be treated as -0000, because in fact RFC2822 says to treat it as +0000 already. Why clutter the draft by repeating what RFC2822 says? I object to any phrasing "unknown timezone." It's ambiguous. Then again, I don't really care if all other timezones are treated -0000 either. RFC2822 already says the military zones, as if they ever show up on Usenet!, should be treated as -0000. (Which is something Russ was concerned about I think he wrote.) The list of obs-timezones in RFC2822 is short and unambiguous, just 8 zones, deferring to that text is not going to burden implementors any more than putting up with all the other RFC2822 baggage. And I'd rather 8 unambiguous things to implement than interpreting any of the text that overrides RFC2822 I've seen proposed for this. Sure, Anyone who writes or maintains date parsers will tell you there is all sorts of cruft that you see in Date fields. That's why INN's date parser is written in yacc, and at 500+ lines it's a nightmare to modify/understand. Who wants to touch that? And for what? So that you can accept some cruft like H:M:S expressed as 5:6:00 and no zone or swahili time? Who cares? It's a stupid date field, parse invalid dates as 1/1/1970 as far as I care about fixing problems as stupid as that. But there is something I do care about..... I say that implementing an RFC2822-compliant date parser is "good enough" to reuse in netnews. I disagree with forcing implementors should have to read this draft, and then wonder "gee, now that I read this tortured usefor-usefor-04 prose with references and modifications to RFC2822, do I have to do anything different, or can I just reuse my RFC2822 parsedate?" Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULL9Pa007209 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULL8RN007208 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULL7Dp007185 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C292993F; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ULL2Sd003920(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:21:06 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ULL1vt003919(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:21:02 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:20:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301720.57848.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 15:15, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > > the only issue appears to be that some UAs (no other > > software has need to parse a References field) are not > > compliant with the specifications > > That's not exactly the point: > > A few of these "UAs" can be Web interfaces trying to display > some sort of "threads" using (among others) the References. > > Some of these broken UAs can mangle the References in wild and > wonderful ways causing more wonderful side effects with other > UAs, which can normally handle all syntactically well-formed > References. Do you mean when creating a f^H(avoiding controversial term) response? If so, and the UA/posting agent/(controversial word) agent generates invalid syntax, then the injection agent ought to reject that response article, avoiding damage. If not, then how does such mangled content get from one UA to another? I believe that rejecting invalid articles at the injection agent is consistent with WG consensus, though USEPRO section 7.2 doesn't actually say that an injection agent may reject a non-conforming article, even though it is tasked with ensuring conformance. Perhaps forwarding to a moderator (permitted as the sole alternative to injection)... but I digress. We are after all talking about parenthesized comments, which have always been part of RFC 822 syntax and aren't exactly rocket science. > > that isn't an interoperability problem of the sort described > > in BCP 14. > > If one UA gets it wrong and that causes another UA to crash it > is only a SNAFU. But if the crshing UA is a Web interface or > another piece of software running in unattended mode it's bad. I think the answer is to reject non-articles at the earliest opportunity (injection agent). I.e. prevent the rogue UA/posting agent/whatever from causing damage; the injection agent enforces the syntax rules. > > s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by > > non-conforming parsers/ would be more accurate > > IBTD, it's about conforming parsers confronted with the invalid > input caused by another non-conforming parser elsewhere. In that hypothetical case, it's not the comment that's causing a problem, it's something else. So it would be incorrect to say that the comment(s) "cause interoperability problems". The "something else", whatever that might be, either results in a syntactically valid field or not. If not, then it along with the article containing it is rejected (or forwarded to some moderator) instead of being injected. If the field is syntactically valid, what is the problem? > If > what you said boils down to a "don't replace the SHOULD NOT > by a MUST NOT" I'd support it. What it boils down to is: "interoperability problems" implies "MUST NOT". The original suggestion was to therefore replace SHOULD NOT with MUST NOT. If (and only if) I can be convinced that there really is an interoperability problem caused by a mere comment, I'll support that change. I don't see such an interoperability problem, so my counter- proposal is to avoid the conflict by replacing "interoperability problems" with something more accurate, and I have suggested *specific* text for that replacement, with some sort of relevant argument to support that suggestion (the argument is NOT "because unripe bananas are green"). I'm ambivalent about leaving the "SHOULD NOT"; comments are for human consumption, and few people care about reading References fields, even if their UA displays them -- of course adding human-readable comments that are unlikely to be read isn't a great idea. For that matter, the entire text could be elided; lots of non-conforming UAs will misparse lots of things causing no perceptible problems elsewhere (provided injection agents reject invalid syntax that such a UA might generate in a response) -- if we add text to cover every such possibility we'll be back to 115 pages, at least if the WG stays active for another 8 years so any masochists with the stomach for it can do so... I guess we have at least the following options: 1. no change 2. s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ 3. s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by non-conforming parsers/ 4. elide the entire text Although I suggested the third option, on further consideration I'd like to switch to the fourth (with the third as a fallback) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULAI3b095370 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ULAIRG095369 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:10:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ULAGsm095317 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do6At-0008Pi-5S for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:02:19 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:02:19 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:02:19 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:08:49 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42C45F61.463B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> <IIwzDM.5oD@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > Do people think that would be a good idea, if it turns out > to be feasible? I'd like it. For some time (back in 2002) I had some serious difficulties to get the differences between posting-agent (UA), followup-agent (UA), and injection-agent (news server) right. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfEOL063236 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKfEZe063234 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfDXQ063218 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458e7.d442.100 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:41:11 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVcB07611 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:38 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21788 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Message-ID: <IIwxny.5D6@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:47:58 GMT Lines: 130 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >If we explained it, would this be a reasonable text to insert in 3.1.6? >(I've modified the BNF too. Only modified stuff included here) >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > A path-identity identifies an agent. For the news system to work > properly, the path-identity must be globally unique. > Traditional usage has had two means of generating unique identifiers: > DNS names and asserted identities. The first gets its uniqueness from > the DNS; the second gets its uniqueness from tradition. New servers > should use DNS names. > In some cases, one wishes to embed something into a path-entity that > is not a name. One common thing to embed is an IP address, serving > as an identity when the name of the agent is not known. Hmmm! That looks more of a USEPRO matter. Indeed there is that and much more in USEPRO, and I wanted it put in USEFOR, but Alexey told me it did not belong there. So please can we be as brief as possioble in USEFOR, and point to USEPRO for the gory details (see below) > path-list = [FWS] > *( ( path-identity / path-keyword / path-address ) > [FWS] > path-delimiter [FWS] ) > tail-entry [FWS] > path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) > *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) > path-keyword = "POSTED" / "MISMATCH" > path-address = IPv4address / no-fold-literal ; see [RFC2373] A good idea, but the term <path-identity> needs to include everything that may occur in the list, except the two keywords, because it is used with that meaning in many places. So it would be better as: path-list = [FWS] *( ( path-identity / path-keyword ) [FWS] path-delimiter [FWS] ) tail-entry [FWS] path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) / IPv4address / IPv6address ; see [RFC 3986] path-keyword = "POSTED" / "MISMATCH" > NOTE: The path-address contains characters that some systems consider ^ legacy > path-delimiters. This can cause problems; path-address should > therefore only be used when absolutely necessary. > See [USEPRO] for details on when to use them. However, that is better said in USEPRO. Moreover, it is only the ":" in an <IPv6address> that is problematical, so that is the only case to mention explicitly. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Note that in recycling no-fold-literal, I've added [] around addresses... >and that a naked IPv4 address is allowed separately, because people have >said this is already present (too much for us to remove). Yes, but you have also brought in a whole lot of other things, including a further bunch of former <path-delimiter>s (even "!"). Moreover, current practice has been not to include [...] around IP addresses when used in <path-identity>s, and "[" and "]" were also <path-delimiter>s in the old days (though not so harmful in this particular context). Hence I have reverted to <IPv6address> in my revised syntax. Here, now, is the text currently proposed for USEPRO. Maybe we should review it now; there are several things that have come up in recent days which maybe ought to go into it. News-servers need to identify themselves, by inserting their <path- identity>s (F-3.1.6), into Path, Injection-Info and Xref headers. An injecting agent MUST identify itself with the same <path-identity> in both Path and Injection-Info headers. To ensure that a <path- identity> provides a unique identity for the news-server concerned, it SHOULD be one of: 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or "AAAA" record, which SHOULD identify the actual host inserting this <path-identity> and, ideally, should also be "mailable" (see below). 2. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "MX" record, which MUST be "mailable". 3. An arbitrary name believed to be unique and registered at least with all other news-servers receiving articles directly from the given one. 4. An encoding of an IP address - <IPv4address> or <IPv6address> [RFC 3986]. The FQDN of a news-server is "mailable" if its administrators can be reached by email using both of the forms "usenet@<FQDN>" and "news@<FQDN>", in conformity with [RFC 2142]. For an injecting agent prepending to a Path header (7.2.2), the <path-identity> MUST be option 1 or 2 and the FQDN MUST be mailable, and if the agent offers its services to the general public the form "abuse@<FQDN>" MUST also be available, unless a more specific complaints address has been provided in a <complainto-param> of an Injection-Info header (F-3.2.14). For other agents, options 1 through 3 are to be preferred. >Does this make sense? Not yet :-( -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfEps063226 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKfEGx063225 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfCWl063216 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458e6.d442.ff for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:41:10 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVRt07568 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:27 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21779 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed Message-ID: <IIwtvr.4CL@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:26:15 GMT Lines: 132 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >OK, here's my "proposed text" again, incorporating feedback. >---- restricting syntax; there are no changes to the ABNF ----- > A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and > SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be > used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this ^ created prior to this standard > naming scheme. > NOTE: All-digit components conflict with one widely used storage > scheme for articles. Mixed case groups cause confusion between > systems with case sensitive matching and systems with case insensiteve > matching of newsgroup names. >----- restricting use of specific characters ------------ > Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by > future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by > posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. s/by posting agents// (I.e. MUST NOT be generated; period. And also removes any argument about what injecting agents do if they see one). s/by relaying and serving agents/all agents/ (Not so sure there, since it apparently restricts the right of injecting agents to reject them. OTOH, all mentions, esp. normative ones, of the various different kinds of agent are probaly best removed from USEFOR). Also s/(Whether ...)//, since it does not actually add anything. > Components beginning with "+" and "-" are reserved for private > use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in > Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. > However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. Same suggestions as above, for the same reasons. So I would suggest: MUST NOT be generated without a private prior agreement with the intended recipients (such as between a news-server and its clients). >---- restricting component names ---- > The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used as >the name of a newsgroup: > Groups starting with the component "example" > The group "poster" > The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in >various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used >for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific >purpose, or by local agreement. > Groups starting with the component "junk" No, I think you can omit that one ("junk.foo is bizarre, but not harmful) > Groups starting with the component "to" > Groups containing the component "all" > Groups containing the component "ctl" Groups starting with the component "control" > The group "control" But you can omit that, because it is already excluded because its first (& only) component is excluded. > The group "junk" > The group "to" And you can omit that, because it is already excluded as above. OTOH, I am not sure your classification into two categories is the right one. Surely the distinction should be between the things which will cause things to break (poster, to, all, ctl) and the things which flout accepted conventions (example, junk, control, and even single-component names, though it now seems agreed not to mention these here). Anyway, it is still necessary to give _reasons_ for all these exclusions, probably in a NOTE, because that is how you handled the reasons for all-digit groups, etc. Here are some texts that might be useful: ctl: because it formerly caused such articles to be interpreted as control messages all: because it is used as a wildcard in some implementations to: because of its special meaning to route certain control messages on a point-to-point basis [USEPRO] poster: because of its special meaning in the Followup-To header control: used by many serving agents for pseudo-newgroups to hold control messages junk: used by many serving agents to store invalid articles example: reserved for examples in this and other standards > NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a >protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfB0j063214 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKfBRL063213 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKfAEv063199 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458e5.d442.fe for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:41:09 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVLf07548 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:21 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21776 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <IIwo3y.38u@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:21:33 GMT Lines: 111 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >NEW: > The Message-ID header contains a single unique message identifier. > News is more dependent on msg-id uniqueness and fast comparision than > email is, and some news software would have trouble with the full range > of possible msg-ids permitted by RFC 2822; this section therefore > restricts the syntax of <msg-id> compared to Section 3.6.4 of > [RFC2822]. > The global uniqueness > requirement for <msg-id> in [RFC2822] is to be understood as applying > across all protocols using such message identifiers, and across both > Email and Netnews in particular. There are still people (even, apparently, on this list) who seem to think that it is only "legacy software" that will "have trouble", and look forward to the day when these irksome restrictions can be lifted (and hence seek to express all these limitations by verbiage). Therefore I would like to see something a little stronger, such as: "Netnews is critically dependent on the uniqueness of <msg-id>s and on the ability to compare them rapidly. Retaining the full range of possible <msg-id>s permitted by RFC 2822 would introduce severe performance penalities, and would also be in conflict with [NNTP]; this section therefore ..." >NEW: > no-fold-quote = DQUOTE > ( "." *mqtext / > *mqtext "." / > *mqtext mqspecial *mqtext ) > DQUOTE Correct. >NEW: > Some software will try to match the <id-right> of a msg-id in > a case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case sensitive > fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate two message-IDs where the > only difference is the case of characters in the <id-right> part. That seems a protocol issue to me, and therefore should go in USEPRO. Indeed, USEPRO already contains (7.3): NOTE: Some old software may treat message identifiers that differ only in case within their <id-right> part as equivalent, and implementors of agents that generate message identifiers should be aware of this. That could be altered if people want it stronger. > If domain literals are used, the syntax found in [RFC2821] section > 4.1.3 is RECOMMENDED. Except that may change in 2821bis, and RFC 2822 took great care to allow for all sorts of domain literals that might be invented in the future. So I think we should stick to the RFC 2822 line. Perhaps: If <no-fold-literal>s are used, they SHOULD be restricted to the formats allowed for Internet addresses by the relevant standards. (Which is slightly stronger that what is said in 3.4.1 of RFC 2822, but uses some of the same terminology.) > NOTE: [RFC2822] section 3.6.4 recommends that the <id-right> should > be a domain name or a domain literal. Domain literals are troublesome ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (or a domain literal IP address) > since many IP addresses are not globally unique; domain names are ^^^^ some > more likely to generate unique message-IDs ^^^^^^^^^^^ message identifiers. > In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving a <msg-id> > to change behaviour based on a theory about how the <msg-id> was > generated. Just using correct terminology from RFC 2822. "message-ID" is not a defined technical term. "Message identifier" is the semantic concept (ignoring '<' and '>'), and <msg-id> is its syntactic embodiment. The only genuine not-globally-unique IP addresses are the ones set aside for local use (127.0.0.1 is the best-known). Even IP addresses obtained on a DHCP lease are uniquely yours so long as you hold them. Hence s/many/some/. And just to cover some conventions in current and private use, s/In no circumstance is it reasonable/It would be unwise{unreasonable}/. "In no circumstances" is, in any case, a bit too strong to go in a NOTE. >Makes sense? Yes indeed. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKf66t063082 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKf6Pk063081 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKf5O8063055 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458de.d442.fd for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:41:02 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVMx07558 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:22 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21777 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <IIwoxC.3F5@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:39:12 GMT Lines: 45 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 29 2005 05:36, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> The global uniqueness >> requirement for <msg-id> in [RFC2822] is to be understood as applying >> across all protocols using such message identifiers, and across both >> Email and Netnews in particular. >OK. I wouldn't mind the latter part expanded to "all applications which >use the Internet Message Format [RFC2822]". Be careful there. The present wording already covers "all applications which use the Internet Message Format", but it also includes anything else (such as X.400) which might use something compatible with our "message identifiers". > NOTE: Although the length of a msg-id is constrained to 997 octets, and > a legal domain name may be up to 255 octets in length, some news > software implementations silently truncate a msg-id at 255 octets. > Such implementations SHOULD be upgraded as soon as practicable to > support a msg-id length of 997 octets. Implementations that > exchange messages which may be sent to a legacy implementation > should limit msg-id length to no more than 255 octets if possible. >Clearly the problem here is some legacy implementations, since a domain name >has always been allowed to be up to 255 octets (RFC 882). No, the limit (250, not 255) is hard coded into many implementations and, more to the point, it is hard coded into the new NNTP standard-to-be, which has just passed its IESG Last Call and is now in the RFC Editor's queue. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKf3Wg063006 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKf3te063005 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKf2XJ062997 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458dd.d442.fc for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:41:01 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVXj07589 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:33 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21783 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Message-ID: <IIwv9K.4qw@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:56:08 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Seth Breidbart wrote: > >> I agree it's odd. I still think we should do it. >[...] >> "MUST NOT generate" because there's no reason to allow >> generation >Yesterday Charles wrote something in the direction of >SHOULD NOT => permission, and now you apparently propose >SHOULD NOT => allowed. Do all here think that a SHOULD >(NOT) is something like "please (not)", or worse that >SHOULD NOT is just a shorthand for "of course you can" ? >There is a reason to allow generation, legacy software. No. You misunderstand the intention of our standards. Legacy software does all sorts of things which we don't want them to do any more. Therefore, we write our standard so that those legacy implementations become non-compliant (because that is a good carrot to encourage them to be upgraded). OTOH, of course, we so arrange things (by making transitional/fallback arrangements where necessary) that the legacy software can continue to interoperate at least for the medium term (long term, in some future standard, we may outlaw some such things entirely, but that will be somebody else's decision to take). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKf07w062938 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKf0AK062937 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:41:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKexEQ062922 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458d8.d442.fb for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVYV07593 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21784 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1042 USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups folding - resolution proposal Message-ID: <IIwvq9.4v5@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <3C401D02F140FAB69424300E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:06:08 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <3C401D02F140FAB69424300E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >Suggested addition to section 3.1.5: >Folding the Newsgroups: header field over several header lines has been >shown to harm propagation significantly. Folded Newsgroups header fields >SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. >The only valid reason identified at this time for generating folded >Newsgroups header fields is to test propagation of articles using that >feature. I agree with the intent, but not with the wording. But at least we seem to be settling for SHOULD NOT generate both for this case and for comments in References, which is certainly consistent. The problem is not that "folding over several header lines has been shown to harm propagation", but that it has hitherto been totally excluded from the syntax. Therefore, we need to say that it is a "newly introduced feature with little support in current implementations". And then you say it "MUST be accepted but SHOULD NOT be generated" (adding "at the present time", or other qualifying wording if you wish). And I would omit the paragraph about "to test propagation of articles". Implementor know how to do that without being told. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKevZ5062876 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKevxk062875 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeuju062858 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458d7.d442.fa for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:55 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVfK07620 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:41 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21790 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021 Single component newsgroups (Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <IIwzL0.5r4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <AEF08FC6BEDD4E5AABF1F47A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:29:24 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <AEF08FC6BEDD4E5AABF1F47A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I think that's the consensus of the group at the moment: >It's not sensible for the article *format* standard to say anything about >single component newsgroup names. They should be permitted in syntax. >We'll return to the topic with USEAGE (if we get that far). OK, I could take the single-component newsgroup-names to USEAGE, but it seems that the intent of Harald's latest proposal is to leave the rest of these "funny" newsgroup-names (control.*, junk.*, to.*, all-digit-components, etc.) in USEFOR. Is that understanding correct? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeuk9062865 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKeuaS062864 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKetgj062856 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458d3.d442.f9 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:51 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVbq07606 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:37 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21787 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <IIwwDE.53r@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:20:01 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >Russ, I think I need some clarification: >Are you saying that the "server-name" part remains unchanged? If not, how >is the end result conceptually different from remove/generate? Also, if >not, (i.e. the "server-name" is the same), how is this effectively >different (from the POV of any connecting client) from "one big serving >agent"? I think others have answered your main point. However, even if B is a pure slave of A, it _might_ still be reasonable for articles passed to B to change the <server-name> to B, even if they retain the identical <article-locator>s. Actually, the wording does not preclude that, since B can always claim to have removed the old Xref header and replaced it with one that was almost identical. Indeed, the whole Xref slaving matter could have been covered by that getout in the old wording, but the new does make it more clear. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeqgg062819 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKeq7d062818 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeoeC062762 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458d1.d442.f8 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:49 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVeI07616 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:40 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21789 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Message-ID: <IIwzDM.5oD@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:24:58 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified >> in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents >"Netnews agent" isn't defined anywhere. Didn't >we at some point agree that Usefor was about >on-the-wire article _format_, not "agent" behavior? I think Ralph has a point here. USEPRO currently defines two terms: user agent encompassing posting, reading and followup agents news-server encompassing injecting, relaying and serving agents All the individual *-agent terms are, of course heavily used in USEPRO. My preference would be to define and use those terms only in USEPRO, and try to get by with only "user agent" and "news-server" within USEFOR. I have not trawled throught USEFOR to see if we could actually get away with that, but on the face of it it _ought_ to be possible. Do people think that would be a good idea, if it turns out to be feasible? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeoth062778 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKeopY062777 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKen3X062748 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458d0.d442.f7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:48 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVZF07597 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21785 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIwvwo.4xu@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> <IIt1Cv.or@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C2919D.70301@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:10:00 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C2919D.70301@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> I pointed out that in the real world implementors and other readers DO >> take shortcute when reading documents. That is a fact of life. You have to >> live with it. >No I do not have to live with it. As has been said so many times: we >need a clear, complete, unambiguous specification that is as easy to read >as possible, BUT WE HAVE NO CONCERN for people who refuse to read and >understand NORMATIVE references. We can totally ignore such people when >writing, because they are irrelevant. To describe a substantial part of your audience as "irrelevant" is no way to write any document, whether technical or otherwise. If that is your attitude, then we will just have to agree to differ. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKenCH062750 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKengN062749 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKemmu062711 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458cf.d442.f6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:47 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVVE07580 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:31 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21781 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Message-ID: <IIwuJs.4JM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:40:40 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I suggest the following text change to section 2.1 of USEFOR: >NEW: > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax > specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], and MUST accept the "UTC" timezone > (see section 3.1.2) and the obs-phrase construct (see [RFC2822] section > 4.1) but they MUST NOT generate > productions of such syntax. s/UTC/GMT/ of course. And then, please, a little explanation of what obs-phrase is supposed to achieve, perhaps with a John Q. Public <john@example.com> example. And maybe also that the "obs" in <obs-phrase> is a bit of a misnomer. Otherwise, it is not clear to the reader why we have singled out this particular "obs" for special attention. >Makes sense? Yes. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKemQs062719 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKemAJ062718 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKelaS062692 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458cd.d442.f5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVWN07585 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:32 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21782 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Message-ID: <IIwux8.4nD@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:48:44 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >Based on comments to Ken Murchison's text, I currently have the following >as resolution: > The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and > 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in > Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- > zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. > Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which use the > "GMT" zone. But you are now giving the same normative rule (MUST accept "GMT") in two places, which is not usually a good idea. Better to say ... hence the reason why section 2.1 REQUIRES its continued acceptance (but not generation). >Makes sense? Yes. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKel3O062693 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKelv7062691 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKejNX062643 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458cd.d442.f4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVOC07562 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:24 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21778 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <IIwpBq.3LH@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:47:50 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >But here I strongly disagree, I care _very much_ if somebody >generates a <whatever@xyzzy.claranet.de> without my permission >because it's my name space. And therefore <id-right> is a bad >name. But that is not a violation of USEFOR, which is to be a format standard. It might be a proper matter for attention in USEPRO, but IMO it is really an argument between you and the abuse dept. of ISP of the perpetrator. Moreover, if it is someone issuing a cancel for one of your spammed articles, it might even be a right and proper thing to do :-) . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKekpP062660 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKekNW062659 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKeilU062602 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458cb.d442.f3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:43 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVTD07573 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:29 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21780 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed Message-ID: <IIwu4r.4FM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C28E53.4050501@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:31:38 GMT Lines: 20 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C28E53.4050501@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Can I suggest the following arrangement of text... No, I think I prefer the original arrangement. Start with the ones which are simple restrictions on the syntax (all-digit and uppercase-names), which should come immediately after the syntax, Deal next with the ones that have systematic treatment ("_", "+", "-"). And finally the apparently bizarre specific component-names. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKej1d062631 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKejLv062630 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKei4c062599 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-195.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.195]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c458ca.d442.f2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:40:42 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5UKVaE07601 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:31:36 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21786 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <IIwvyw.4zv@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C2961F.1070801@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:11:20 GMT Lines: 18 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C2961F.1070801@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >I am not sure we have basis for a MUST/SHOULD, but how is it a kludge >to be able to mark cross-posts as read? Because, with hindsight, there might have been better ways of achieving that effect. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKVq5M052340 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UKVqqj052339 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UKVoi4052304 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do5Yc-0002Xr-BZ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:22:46 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:22:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:22:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:28:46 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 40 Message-ID: <42C455FE.3C17@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301322.53031.blilly@erols.com> <42C43B38.42D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <87r7ejd668.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > What I'd really like to do is not deviate from RFC 2822 any > more than is absolutely necessary Sounds like you want the complete obs-stuff in and then maybe exclude some of the worse nightmares explicitly. In theory it's possible that we'd arrive at the same subset with this strategy, but in practice I doubt it I would want to get rid of the "North-American" zones because they are known to cause harm (= folks outside of North-America inventing their own zone names, or new semantics for existing names, maybe I'd insist on I18N considerations for this stuff, it's a can of worms combined with ugly ratholes). > I think that treating the North American time zones as > unknown when RFC 1036 said they were fine is an iffy > decision. Combined with the general "MAY accept obs-stuff" everybody can pick what he likes best. With "MAY do this" on one side, and "SHOULD do that" on the other side, is there still a realistic chance to get it completely wrong, e.g. reject such articles ? > I can understand why other software authors don't want to be > bothered with folding and comments [CFWS] is only at the end of 2822 <date-time>, ignoring it is no problem. The other 2822 [FWS] and FWS should be also okay. Otherwise your preference of "2822 as verbatim as possible" has a problem, "obs-zones but no FWS" is IMNSHO no option. It's in theory possible to copy the 2822 <date-time> ABNF with its numerous obs-rules, and then delete those that we don't like. OTOH we tried that already. Harald's proposal is the cleanest solution for me. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJrgBl011572 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UJrglG011571 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJre5j011534 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do4xs-0004uK-IU for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:44:48 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:44:48 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:44:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:49:44 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 44 Message-ID: <42C44CD8.47F2@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291709.j5TH9ZN27144@panix5.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart wrote: > "MUST NOT" = don't do it. Period. > "SHOULD NOT" = don't do it unless you have a good reason. ACK, and don't use these 2119 keywords where it's unnecessary. Necessity includes "potential to cause harm". Or here also all "differences from 2822". Based on that I got "don't quote MUST NOT generate GMT", but it's of course also a matter of taste to a certain degree. > the question is which is worse: being _more permissive_ > than RFC 2822 (which we aren't anywhere else, are we?) or > decreeing that legacy software is non-conformant with a > new spec? Charles apparently intends to be more permissive about some length limits (78 and 998), I'm not sure at the moment. BTW, it's not that I wanted any explicit "SHOULD NOT generate GMT", I only didn't like the explicit "MUST NOT generate GMT", because there's neither a potential harm nor any difference from 2822. Maybe that's a bit too shrewd... ;-) >> in my parallel universe it's not allowed to implement any >> new software generating GMT if the specification says >> "SHOULD NOT" - > Unfortunately, some implementors won't agree with you. > They'll find other reasons that are good enough for them. > (At least, that's my guess.) Yes, that's possible. And Bruce's IMAP "sort-by-date" example was interesting. I know nothing about IMAP and trust that Ned or Bruce would tell us if we're about to screw up. So far I don't see a problem, except from "Russ wants some problematic time zone names as a MUST accept", which would put us back to square one. I'm happy with only GMT, eliminating the complete zone name zoo is also very tempting. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJKp6i075416 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UJKpmi075415 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJKnTw075389 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do4S6-00008k-Qv for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:11:59 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:11:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:11:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:15:29 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 32 Message-ID: <42C444D1.6A51@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > the only issue appears to be that some UAs (no other > software has need to parse a References field) are not > compliant with the specifications That's not exactly the point: A few of these "UAs" can be Web interfaces trying to display some sort of "threads" using (among others) the References. Some of these broken UAs can mangle the References in wild and wonderful ways causing more wonderful side effects with other UAs, which can normally handle all syntactically well-formed References. > that isn't an interoperability problem of the sort described > in BCP 14. If one UA gets it wrong and that causes another UA to crash it is only a SNAFU. But if the crshing UA is a Web interface or another piece of software running in unattended mode it's bad. > s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by > non-conforming parsers/ would be more accurate IBTD, it's about conforming parsers confronted with the invalid input caused by another non-conforming parser elsewhere. If what you said boils down to a "don't replace the SHOULD NOT by a MUST NOT" I'd support it. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJ2aRC056960 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UJ2aR5056959 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UJ2YwB056930 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF1D299A0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UJ2Uqq003073(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:02:32 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UJ2U1c003072(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:02:30 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: NEW: blanket statements vs. the law of unintended consequences, also Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:02:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <7407B6A0D99CF83096C58952@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <7407B6A0D99CF83096C58952@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301502.26634.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 09:57, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Bruce, I have not heard anyone but you arguing that *all* OBS-syntax should > be accepted. Harald, I don't believe that I have have said so, especially not with that emphasis. I have said that I believe that we should adhere to 2822 as closely as possible, making specific exceptions where there is some justification. [oh, my!] > raise an issue that > specifically suggests alternate text for 2.1, where we say that OBS-syntax > is a "MAY" accept, not a "MUST" accept? So MUST means MAY except where (e.g. obs-phrase) MAY means MUST. Unless of course MUST means MAY again. While the 2.1 text says "MAY" it doesn't specifically say that it overrides 2822, so it's not 100% clear. It's unclear what the order of precedence is in interpreting 2822 vs. 2.1 vs. the presumably agreed-upon obs-phrase text, etc. Blanket statements flout the law of unintended consequences and lead to convoluted rules such as the above. I propose eliminating the blanket statement in section 2.1 (i.e. the second sentence of the first paragraph), with the understanding that that does not preclude adding limited-scope relaxation of specific parts of 2822 obs-syntax parsing requirements where appropriate and where justifiable. > Acting as if we had changed 2.1 when we have not is ... not useful. OK. Among other not-useful things: o presenting text in isolation which refers to section 2.2 but not 2.1 where 2.1 may be applicable Plenty of blame to go around. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UIv5pi051764 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UIv597051763 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UIv42o051749 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5UIv4Fl008286 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:04 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7121E7CB0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. In-Reply-To: <42C43B38.42D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:34:32 +0200") References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301322.53031.blilly@erols.com> <42C43B38.42D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:57:03 -0700 Message-ID: <87r7ejd668.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > It was in a reply to Russ, and Russ wants the "North-American" > cherries without the military zones. Not exactly. What I'd really like to do is not deviate from RFC 2822 any more than is absolutely necessary, and I think that treating the North American time zones as unknown when RFC 1036 said they were fine is an iffy decision. What I was trying to say about the military zones is that I don't *care* about them, and I don't think that the RFC 1036 concern is applicable there since they were already deprecated by other standards. However, I would much prefer to adopt RFC 2822 as verbatim as possible without cherry-picking. The main thing that's going to get in the way of that is not supporting time zones, but rather accepting additional junk in the middle of the Date header. INN does already handle the full obs syntax of RFC 2822 in the current development version, but I can understand why other software authors don't want to be bothered with folding and comments, particularly since there's no good reason for having either other than consistency with mail. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UIbIEm029786 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UIbIbO029778 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:37:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UIbEnw029620 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do3mr-0002RW-VR for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:29:21 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.65 ([212.82.251.65]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:29:21 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.65 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:29:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:34:32 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 37 Message-ID: <42C43B38.42D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506301322.53031.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.65 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > any purported "design principle" were replaced by the > specific text in Harald's proposal He didn't write "MUST accept GMT" as redundant rule, as you claimed, but because it's an exception from the "MAY accept", and because MUST and MAY are different. And the "MAY accept" is certainly not only "purported". > If the intent is to contradict 2822, which is a normative > reference, then it's necessary to state so unambiguously | News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in | Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the | obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but | they MUST NOT generate [...] That's unambiguous, and one of the tickets added text for the two exceptions (MUST accept GMT and obs-phrase) explicitly. >> That's in Bruce's obs-package, we're cherry picking > Speak for yourself. I want no cherry-picking. It was in a reply to Russ, and Russ wants the "North-American" cherries without the military zones. You may now please stop telling me what I can write or not, unless I'm plain wrong. But while we're at it, of course you'd be also cherry-picking if you'd want some obs-2822-rules but not others. And whatever IMAP might do, if it simply ignores "GMT" all is fine, "GMT" is the same as +0000. None of our business, we're not inventing new time zones different from 2822. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UHbPTl065965 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UHbPwS065964 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:37:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from madcow.cryp.to (madcow.cryp.to [193.123.234.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UHbNOZ065953 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de) Received: from nemesis.pfm-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by madcow.cryp.to with ESMTP id j5UHbL4f013058 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:21 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:36:38 +0200 Message-Id: <200506301736.TAA05208@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> In-Reply-To: <7407B6A0D99CF83096C58952@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Non-Admin: Please watch your language Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Bruce, I have not heard anyone but you arguing that *all* > OBS-syntax should be accepted. Can you now shut up about > this issue, [...] Just couldn't resist. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UHN7t3050843 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UHN7kk050842 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UHN600050777 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546FC29929; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UHMwS5002578(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:22:59 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UHMucd002577(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:22:57 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:22:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301322.53031.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 12:02, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Sigh. That's the point of this thread. It's a general design > principle of USEFOR to replace 2822 "MUST accept obs-ceneties" > by a "MAY accept" keeping the 2822 "MUST NOT generate". > > So when Bruce wrote... > > | that text is redundant and unnecessarily specific to "GMT" > > ...it's only his POV because he disregards the general design > principle. Of course it's necessary to say "MUST accept GMT" > if the general rule is only a "MAY accept". No, such text and any purported "design principle" were replaced by the specific text in Harald's proposal, which replaced the specific text in Ken's proposal, proposed to replace the specific text in the current draft. > If Bruce doesn't like "unknown" s/unknown/other/ is perfectly > clear, I disagree. If the intent is to contradict 2822, which is a normative reference, then it's necessary to state so unambiguously, especially where is affects a 2822 field such as Date. I don't believe such a contradiction can fly (see below). > That's in Bruce's obs-package, we're cherry picking Speak for yourself. I want no cherry-picking. IMAP is the Internet Message Access Protocol, which is used to access mail and news and other messages. There is a protocol extension draft, mentioned in this WG several times, which provides a mechanism for a client (UA) to request the server to collate message order by factors including the Date field. The client and server deal with messages; there is no artificial distinction between "news" and "mail" and "other". IMAP is a Standards Track protocol compliant with RFCs 822, 850, 1036, and 2822, among others. Given such a request, how do you propose that such a server should treat a message in a folder containing the field Date: 30 Mar 2001 12:34:56 EST Three-part question: do you believe that should be treated as having 822/2822 semantics (equivalent to -0500) or as -0000, why, and do you believe that you can convince IMAP implementers? 2003-06-30:c Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGpWIY020548 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UGpWBL020547 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGpVP9020541 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C292993D; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UGpSCc002429(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:51:28 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UGpO9U002428(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:51:27 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Decision procedures Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:51:14 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <119CB22DD798D0073C9ACE7A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506291219.38930.blilly@erols.com> <AF703C8265623729795D01B6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <AF703C8265623729795D01B6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301251.17208.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 04:36, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Bruce, [...] > > Yes, we know that you and Alexey decide *if* consensus has been reached, > > because that's explicitly what 2418 says. But 2418 explicitly says that > > the WG gets to agree on the means. I have posted what a past co-chair > > has indicated as the means, and I believe that that method had WG > > consensus behind it. > > I believe you are referring to your posting: > > > > For reference, a past > > WG Chair had the following to say, and if I recall correctly, Alexey > > has agreed: > > On the topic of voting: Especially on this topic, I think voting > > would be stupid. The decision is about rough consensus. One screaming > > person does not indicate that there is no rough consensus, but one or > > two well-reasoned arguments against a screaming huge crowd does. And > > a huge number of "I'd prefer X, but I couldn't care less" votes > > versus 2 or 3 well-argued "X will spell doom for the Internet, and Y > > will save it" votes *is* rough consensus for Y over X. So voting > > generally doesn't help me decide one way or the other that there is > > rough consensus. Correct. > This is a quote from Pete Resnick's message > <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Jun/0099.html> - no need to be coy > about who the previous chair is. Coyness (http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=coy) has nothing to do with it. Yes, Pete wrote that; is that relevant (as distinct from the fact that he was WG Chair at the time)? For the record: I think Pete's a splendid fellow and did an outstanding job as WG (co-)Chair. I also think he had an excellent series of points regarding consensus, which it why I quote it; I would probably not do so if I thought otherwise (sometimes, one has to state the obvious). > >From the same message: > > > (It's > > also clear, BTW, that people are not listening to each other and > > aren't trying to think of where we can come to consensus, which is > > why people think they need a vote.) > > Familiar? Yes, and I would point out that in neither that case nor recently have *I* called for "a vote" or "counting heads" or anything remotely like that. > > The question, still unanswered, is whether or not that method, which > > specifically calls for taking well-reasoned arguments into account, is > > being followed by the current co-chairs in determining *if* consensus > > is reached and where that consensus lies. If so, it would help if the > > co-chairs were more vociferous about what fails to qualify as a > > well-reasoned argument; we have certainly had plenty of unsupported > > assertions and "false statement[s] deliberately presented as being true" > > (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie) -- it would also help if, > > when announcing that consensus has been reached, there were something > > more substantive than a list of names. If not, there seems to be a > > problem, as I don't recall a WG consensus decision (based on that > > established means of determining consensus) to change the means of > > determining consensus. > > One thing that probably should have been included: The fact that you think > that you have a well-reasoned argument and your opponent's argument is > totally beside the point has nothing to do with whether or not we have > consensus. Fine. But there's no question that an unsupported assertion is no well- reasoned argument or that an unsupported assertion which contradicts the facts is "a falsehood". > In fact, you having what you think is a well-reasoned argument and totally > failing to convince anyone else that the argument is reasonable is just > another way of becoming the "rough" in "rough consensus". Maybe. Perhaps it means that the reasoning is not understood (which is why I encourage asking questions and why I do so myself when there is some doubt about some claim or position). > I will NEVER rule > "rough consensus" on anything where I know that the majority of the group > thinks it's a stupid idea. I believe it's important to distinguish whether somebody thinks something is a "stupid" idea (not my epithet, just quoting) because of prejudice, ignorance, or logical reasoning, as well as (in the last case) whether it's a mild preference or a strong conviction (really irrelevant in the other two cases). See also Pete's comments about "a huge screaming crowd" and "couldn't care less". > When stating lists of names (which has happened rarely), I think of it > mainly to make sure that the record shows that the decision was made in > full knowledge of who does NOT agree; that these people have raised > arguments against what has been ruled the consensus, their arguments have > been heard, and the chairs have ruled that the group has consensus to > proceed in spite of the disagreement. I still believe it would be helpful to provide some indication of rationale, so for example, if the list of names says "so-and-so is against the proposal (no reason)" one might contribute by saying "I agree with so-and-so and here are some reasons...". Unless of course the WG and/or its chairs don't care about reasons, in which case "me too" would suffice. It's also one thing if "their arguments" is the empty set and another if they correspond to Pete's "x will spell doom for the Internet" (provided of course that there is in fact an argument and not merely an unsubstantiated claim). > I will absolutely refuse to poison the atmosphere of this list further by > stating that specific people are lying. I'll also refuse to say that > specific people are idiots, trolls, stiff-necked fools or any other > epithets. The usual way of not saying something is, well, to not say it... > What should matter in determining consensus is the content of the > argument. Agreed. How can that be done when there is no argument, just some claim (or, for that matter, an irrelevant argument like "I'm opposed to the X option because unripe bananas are green")? > "False" is a statement about the argument. "Lie" is a statement about the > person making it. No "lie" as a noun is a statement about a statement. One that can be substantiated, or not. But back to the issue: where do we stand on the matter of the means of determining consensus? Do unsupported assertions count? Do false statements count? Is "I'm in favor of x, but I couldn't care less" weighed the same as "x will spell doom for the Internet"? It matters (for example, if unsupported assertions don't count, any WG participant who wishes to make a point had better provide some substance; conversely, if unsupported assertions count, we can simply revert to an "is too"/"is not" shouting match (or disband, saving the bandwidth, time, effort, and angst)). 2003-06-30:b (responding to specific issues) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGntrv018869 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UGntZt018864 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:49:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from madcow.cryp.to (madcow.cryp.to [193.123.234.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGnsCp018810 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de) Received: from nemesis.pfm-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by madcow.cryp.to with ESMTP id j5UGnq4f012786 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:49:52 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:20:07 +0200 Message-Id: <200506301620.SAA03756@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> In-Reply-To: <912BD9F0B57EBB6C77475A13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > if we're talking about accepting at all, we must be > willing to talk about the ones who accept. Otherwise, > there's eternal wandering around in passages of the > passive voice to be found, with no actor in sight. So since we're defining an article format, maybe we shouldn't be talking about "accepting" in the first place, but instead simply introduce two levels of conformance - much like 2822 with its "obs-" tokens. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGh7mU011623 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UGh7Qj011622 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGh6BG011614 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do20B-0001yl-4g for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:34:59 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.40]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:34:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:34:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:40:29 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 36 Message-ID: <42C4207D.EE4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <81D9FCA6606E1B2AC39217F3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > now I get the concern..... the requirement for uniqueness is > not only that you generate names in a namespace that you > control, but that I do *not* generate names in that > namespace. Yes. Russ' point about the $alz convention not withstanding: A conventional bid "4 SA" doesn't mean that you want to play sans atout, or at least not only 4 SA. And it's a convention how to break some 1036-rules intentionally and efficiently, it's the same situation with s-o-1036 or its future grandson. > Should we add a "MUST NOT generate msg-ids in id-rights you > don't control"? It's probably clear that I prefer a simple <id-domain> instead of tons of MUSTard with the same effect for the bad <id-right>. Yes, that MUST could fix one of these id-left / right problems. > That's why I'm concerned with the syntax of RHS > domain-literals And <no-fold-quote> and <no-fold-literal> are also bad names, we don't want to inherit the 2822-rule about their "semantical content" (= invisible backslash in a quoted-pair). A clean minimal interface is a new <msg-id> and from there use new productions, don't try to overload more old RfC 2822 names if the syntax or semantics differs from 2822. Especially if those differences are very subtle like a "visible" backslash. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGJaaF087094 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UGJaA6087093 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UGJX7U086986 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5UGJWKO007396 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:32 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8DEADE7CB0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. In-Reply-To: <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:02:34 +0200") References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:19:32 -0700 Message-ID: <87r7ejizqj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> I'll argue in favor of that, since otherwise we would be going from >> blessing use if reluctantly (RFC 1036) to allowing parsers to disregard >> them without any intervening deprecation period. > Sigh. That's the point of this thread. It's a general design principle > of USEFOR to replace 2822 "MUST accept obs-ceneties" by a "MAY accept" > keeping the 2822 "MUST NOT generate". I've clearly missed the point of the thread, and I'm sorry about that. I was previously responding to the language about GMT and was also looking primarily at the generate side. I had not realized that people were talking about not accepting the North American time zones. The military time zones were deprecated by RFC 1123, and more tellingly, they also don't appear in practice. I have no problem getting rid of them except insofar as it adds wording complexity. But I *do* have a problem going straight from RFC 1036 to allowing servers to not even parse the North American time zones, which are still in use (albeit not heavily). I think we need one more step between here and there. > That's exactly what we want. And otherwise "you MAY parse it, else you > SHOULD treat it as unknown -0000" is fine. No, I don't agree that this is fine. > That's in Bruce's obs-package, we're cherry picking, and IMHO reducing > this to the one cherry GMT is an excellent choice for new parsers. I also don't agree with this. > Really, can we close this #1028 now ? Apparently not. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UG9xwf076501 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UG9xuL076500 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UG9vrK076453 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Do1Tt-0005Ft-70 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:01:37 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.40]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:01:37 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:01:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:02:34 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 50 Message-ID: <42C4179A.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-40.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: >> If anyone but Bruce wants to argue in favour of recognizing >> *all* timezones mentioned in RFC 2822, which is the logical >> consequence of Bruce's argument, please speak up now. > I'll argue in favor of that, since otherwise we would be > going from blessing use if reluctantly (RFC 1036) to allowing > parsers to disregard them without any intervening deprecation > period. Sigh. That's the point of this thread. It's a general design principle of USEFOR to replace 2822 "MUST accept obs-ceneties" by a "MAY accept" keeping the 2822 "MUST NOT generate". So when Bruce wrote... | that text is redundant and unnecessarily specific to "GMT" ...it's only his POV because he disregards the general design principle. Of course it's necessary to say "MUST accept GMT" if the general rule is only a "MAY accept". And of course this essentially switches GMT back to the obs-2822-MUST-rule. That's exactly what we want. And otherwise "you MAY parse it, else you SHOULD treat it as unknown -0000" is fine. And as a bonus we get a GMT => +0000 effect if Harald uses s/any/other/ If Bruce doesn't like "unknown" s/unknown/other/ is perfectly clear, "anything not covered by numerical 2822-timezones or the deprecated GMT or whatever you still MAY parse". > It would surprise me if there are any existing Usenet date > parsers that don't handle all of the RFC 2822 zones with the > exception of the badly specified and almost never seen > military zones. That's in Bruce's obs-package, we're cherry picking, and IMHO reducing this to the one cherry GMT is an excellent choice for new parsers. If an old / other parser wants more cherries it has a MAY and a place (2822 obs-) to find them. And if that has some weird side effects for an erroneous EDT or EST it's not our fault. Really, can we close this #1028 now ? I promise that I won't mention the utter dubious "MUST NOT generate GMT" anymore if we stick to the general design priciple "no obs-ceneties excl. GMT". And the obs-phrase in Keywords: etc. <shudder /> Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFxUjK066586 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UFxUvH066583 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFxSU3066512 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BF829997; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UFxOnE002093(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:59:25 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UFxMTL002092(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:59:24 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:59:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301159.20031.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 30 2005 10:19, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > My reading of the text and the discussion is that the group wishes to allow > a parser to NOT recognize "EST" as anything more valid than "ABC". > (Otherwise, the whole fuss about requiring handling of "GMT" would be > completely meaningless.) The WG discussion has been focused on comparisons of date-time in Injection-Date, whereas blanket statements about zone abbreviations affect legacy Date and Expires fields as well as any RFC 2822 and extension fields which may arrive via gateways. > This requires permitting the interpretation of "EST" as "unknown", which is > not the intent of RFC 2822, but is (in my interpretation) the intent of > this working group. My interpretation is that some WG members might favor that for Injection-Date specifically (although no text has been proposed even though there is an open ticket for that purpose), but I see no discussion that explicitly supports interpreting "EST" as unknown in the legacy fields. I have made a constructive comment on the specific text proposed, which was somewhat vague (as previously discussed on-list by others). If you believe that some clear wording specifically addressing EST appearing in *any* date-time in *any* field is the WG consensus, then by all means counter-counter-propose some text that says so clearly rather than by providing a vague back door, and we can debate that along with your original proposal and my two counter- proposals. I believe it was you who said that specific text change proposals followed by debate on the open list was the simplest way to decide consensus. You proposed specific text; I carefully reviewed it and commented, making two alternative counter-proposals addressing a specific (vagueness) issue: 1. Simply refer to 2822 section 4.3 2. Repeat verbatim the relevant 2822 text (which I quoted so that it can be seen as a *specific* text change) I'll also paraphrase what I wrote before: some people here are reluctant to suggest specific text because of tendencies to: o twist around what is suggested o reject such suggestions by fiat o nitpick none of which are conducive to open debate (yes, I have changed the order of "debate" and "open", and not accidentally). I'll leave it to individual readers to decide whether or not that is an accurate characterization of past WG activity and its consequences, and whether or not it continues to be a problem. > If anyone but Bruce wants to argue in favour of recognizing *all* timezones > mentioned in RFC 2822, which is the logical consequence of Bruce's > argument[...] No, I have not argued in favor of recognizing the 1-letter zone abbreviations -- in fact I have gone to some effort to make that clear by specifically mentioning them. Nor have I argued in favor of recognizing the "Other multi-character (usually between 3 and 5) alphabetic time zones" mentioned in RFC 2822, and I have also made that clear by specific mention. If you have a question about what I mean, by all means ask for a clarification (on-list or off) and I'll do my best to provide one, but please don't put words in my mouth. 2003-06-30:a (responding to specific issues) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFQbuL031366 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UFQZqM031343 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFQYQh031214 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5UFQPDC037112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:26:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506300819330.29945@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >There are only 3 ways I see to get rid of the : character: >- Stop putting domain-literals in Path: at all (seems unacceptable) >- Encode IPv6 addresses differently (seems unacceptable) >- Treat IPv6 and IPv4 differently (seems unacceptable) >If you've eliminated the impossible, what you're left with..... How did we leap from "seems unacceptable" to "impossible"? Let's see. We're stuck with legacy apps that are unlikely to change their method of parsing a Path header overnight, all based on a pesky colon. But the "standard" means of representing an IPv6 address uses colons. What do we do? Hmmm. How about simply eliminating the colons (and the effects) from the IPv6 address literal? Bingo -- a 16 character "path-identity" without any punctuation. No need for the :: shorthand, people aren't typing it in over and over again. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFD4O0017384 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UFD4vB017383 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UFD48p017345 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9D62994B; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UFCxi6001879(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:13:00 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UFCwQx001878(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:12:59 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:12:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506280949.01169.blilly@erols.com> <IIuJpo.EzF@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIuJpo.EzF@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301112.54628.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 08:51, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506280949.01169.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Mon June 27 2005 15:01, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> Simply changing the name of some syntax rule cannot possibly change the > >> meaning of the document. > > >Ergo, by your own logic, "id-right" does not change the meaning of > >the RHS of a msg-id from that of a domain name or literal. Nor > >does it change the fact that domain names are case-insensitive. > > If you replace <id-right> by <domain> (which is already defined in RFC > 2822), You have that backwards; RFC 2822 changed domain (as used in 822) to id-right for the reason explicitly noted in 2822 ("identical except that comments and folding white space are not allowed"). Still no substantiation of the claim that the semantics were explicitly changed, I note. 2003-06-30:4 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEwPHH004736 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UEwPth004735 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEwN3W004667 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00DB2993A; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UEwKx3001779(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:58:20 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UEwHAk001778(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:58:18 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:58:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506301058.13924.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 08:33, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > A path-identity identifies an agent. For the news system to work > properly, the path-identity must be globally unique. If we mean "public name" we should probably say so: s/identifies/is a public name identifying/ Global uniqueness is an interoperability requirement ("to work properly"); s/must/MUST/ would make that clear. > Traditional usage has had two means of generating unique identifiers: > DNS names and asserted identities. The first gets its uniqueness from > the DNS; the second gets its uniqueness from tradition. New servers > should use DNS names. Because of the global uniqueness requirement, s/should/MUST/. Add something to address Frank's concern about unauthorized use. > In some cases, one wishes to embed something into a path-entity that > is not a name. One common thing to embed is an IP address, serving > as an identity when the name of the agent is not known. > > path-list = [FWS] > *( ( path-identity / path-keyword / path-address ) > [FWS] > path-delimiter [FWS] ) > tail-entry [FWS] > > path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) > *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) > > path-keyword = "POSTED" / "MISMATCH" The ABNF implies that Path: MISMATCH!tail-entry and Path: MISMATCH!MISMATCH!tail-entry are legal, which I believe is not the intended use of the keywords. I believe that the intent would be conveyed by changing the naked "path-keyword" in the path-list rule by (path-keyword [FWS] path-delimiter [FWS] (path-identity/path-address)) If I understand the "some cases" argument correctly, the only place an IP address literal should appear would be after a MISMATCH keyword and delimiter. If so, the ABNF could be further revised (simplified) to so indicate. There are other issues; the ABNF indicates that Path: POSTED!tail-entry and Path: POSTED!!tail-entry and Path: POSTED!!MISMATCH!tail-entry are legal, and that also conflicts with the text. I believe that the ABNF can be fixed (and I'm willing to try), but first we need to reach some consensus on where an IP address literal is and is not permitted. Likewise for "POSTED" and "MISMATCH" (USEFOR currently defers to USEPRO, which mentions neither). > path-address = IPv4address / no-fold-literal ; see [RFC2373] RFC 2373 has been obsoleted by RFC 3513. Obviously ("sometimes...") RFC 3513 would be a *normative* reference. However... Neither RFC 2373 nor 3513 defines or uses "no-fold-literal". While RFC 2373 had ABNF for "IPv4address" in an Appendix, RFC 3513 defines it nowhere and contains no ABNF. RFC 2821 has ABNF for "IPv4-address-literal" and "IPv6-addr", which might be useful. If I understand yesterday's discussion correctly, there will already be a normative (obviously) reference to RFC 2821. Neither production permits CFWS. I suggest using the aforementioned 2821 ABNF productions: path-address = IPv4-address-literal / ( "[" IPv6-addr "]" ) ; [RFC2821] (but see below regarding brackets). > NOTE: The path-address contains characters that some systems consider > path-delimiters. This can cause problems; path-address should > therefore only be used when absolutely necessary. > See [USEPRO] for details on when to use them. s/some systems/systems conforming to the previous specification/ (modulo bracket issues, which go away if the brackets go away; see below) s/contains/may contain colon and bracket/ ("may" because an IPv4address certainly contains no characters which are interpreted as delimiters; the remainder to clarify the issue -- but again, see below regarding brackets) Because of the backward compatibility/interoperability problem s/should/MUST/. > Note that in recycling no-fold-literal, I've added [] around addresses... > and that a naked IPv4 address is allowed separately, because people have > said this is already present (too much for us to remove). ------------------------------------- > Message-ID: <DBD861979EC6EF845F72B90A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> > In-Reply-To: <42C2A7B7.3993@xyzzy.claranet.de> > References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> > <42C2A7B7.3993@xyzzy.claranet.de> [...] > --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 15:52:55 +0200 Frank Ellermann > <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: [...] > > Doesn't change the dead:beef:cafe:: problems, [ and ] are also > > punctuation in 1036. > > no, the only improvement from my proposed text with dead:beef:cafe is that > we isolate new-weird-characters like [:] to "diagnostic stuff" - we don't > write anything that lets sites name themselves dead:beef. I think such naming is a red herring. Good riddance to the possibility, but it's not the major concern (it's covered by "use DNS names" in any event). The issue of interpretation of IPv6 address literal colon-separated components as path identities remains an interoperability problem. We can defer detailed discussion to USEPRO, but let's be clear that it is an interoperability problem which can cause articles to fail to propagate properly and use BCP 14 imperatives accordingly. > And I think > discussion has shown that [] doesn't make the problem worse, so I see > little argument for not using them if we use them elsewhere. I've seen no discussion of brackets on list in response to the proposed change, other than Frank's comments... Brackets are not explicitly named in RFC 1036 and are not in the set of "punctuation" characters used by the RFC 1036 authors in B news 2.11. Obviously, B news does not treat brackets as delimiters. C news does. INN does, according to Russ' 1999-06-19 message. Bracket characters bracketing an IPv6-addr don't appreciably change the situation one way or the other; eliminating the brackets or changing "[" to "@!:^%" wouldn't affect C news or INN. The characters add to the length, that's about it. The only thing I can see in favor of retaining them it that they would prevent any B news implementations or others using B news compatible code from misinterpreting the IPv4 part of a hybrid literal (because B news doesn't treat brackets as delimiters and "123.45.67.89" differs from "123.45.67.89]"), but then depending on the (possibly compressed) hex part of the hybrid, treating the IPv4 part as different might be the wrong thing to do. I'd prefer to lose the brackets, since they're an unnecessary difference between treatment of IPv4 and IPv6, seem to simply add length, and are not strictly part of the RFC 1036 specification (which would complicate wording regarding the backward compatibility issue). 2005-06-30:3 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEWOLD076551 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UEWOD2076550 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEWNkB076529 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5UEWLPc023158 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:21 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 05165E7CB0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:21 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. In-Reply-To: <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:19:23 +0200") References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:32:20 -0700 Message-ID: <8764vvkj9n.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > My reading of the text and the discussion is that the group wishes to > allow a parser to NOT recognize "EST" as anything more valid than "ABC". > (Otherwise, the whole fuss about requiring handling of "GMT" would be > completely meaningless.) I think this is a very iffy decision to make. I can see not caring about any time zone other than the RFC 2822 ones, but really, I don't see a lot of excuse for not parsing all of the traditional textual time zones. > If anyone but Bruce wants to argue in favour of recognizing *all* > timezones mentioned in RFC 2822, which is the logical consequence of > Bruce's argument, please speak up now. I'll argue in favor of that, since otherwise we would be going from blessing use if reluctantly (RFC 1036) to allowing parsers to disregard them without any intervening deprecation period. It would surprise me if there are any existing Usenet date parsers that don't handle all of the RFC 2822 zones with the exception of the badly specified and almost never seen military zones. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEJT26062705 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UEJTJr062704 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UEJS6Y062681 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AECD61AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:19:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28042-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:19:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE7C61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:19:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:19:23 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Message-ID: <33790F2855834380E66F7D02@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 30, 2005 08:59:34 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > As implementers will need to read the normative RFC 2822 text, a simple > reference to section 4.3 of RFC 2822 should suffice. Otherwise, the > text should be as close as possible (i.e. identical) to the relevant > 2822 text so as to avoid misinterpretation (Charles has said that an > implementation might interpret "EST" as "unknown", which is certainly > not the intent of RFC 2822). My reading of the text and the discussion is that the group wishes to allow a parser to NOT recognize "EST" as anything more valid than "ABC". (Otherwise, the whole fuss about requiring handling of "GMT" would be completely meaningless.) This requires permitting the interpretation of "EST" as "unknown", which is not the intent of RFC 2822, but is (in my interpretation) the intent of this working group. If anyone but Bruce wants to argue in favour of recognizing *all* timezones mentioned in RFC 2822, which is the logical consequence of Bruce's argument, please speak up now. If there is none, I'll declare this issue closed. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDvwqX036008 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UDvviF035980 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:57:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDvsCr035854 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:57:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4234761AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27862-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F44E61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:57:50 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Message-ID: <7407B6A0D99CF83096C58952@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 30, 2005 08:59:34 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> [...] However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- >> zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. >> Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which use the >> "GMT" zone. > > 2822 already requires that parsers accept the obs-zone abbreviations > (with additional remarks about the 1-letter abbreviations), so that > text is redundant and unnecessarily specific to "GMT". Bruce, I have not heard anyone but you arguing that *all* OBS-syntax should be accepted. Can you now shut up about this issue, or raise an issue that specifically suggests alternate text for 2.1, where we say that OBS-syntax is a "MAY" accept, not a "MUST" accept? Acting as if we had changed 2.1 when we have not is ... not useful. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDmibl024050 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UDmir9024049 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDmhaD024039 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5UDmhHS004511 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:43 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D7399E7CB0; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:42 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text In-Reply-To: <81D9FCA6606E1B2AC39217F3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:04:20 +0200") References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <81D9FCA6606E1B2AC39217F3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:48:42 -0700 Message-ID: <87acl8klad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > ah - now I get the concern..... the requirement for uniqueness is not > only that you generate names in a namespace that you control, but that I > do *not* generate names in that namespace. > Should we add a "MUST NOT generate msg-ids in id-rights you don't > control"? The $alz convention is still used for spam cancels, so I think that's at most a SHOULD NOT. (I know I was just arguing against caring that much, but that was more an argument against documenting the convention in at least the standards-track portions of the drafts. I'm not sure that we want to be encouraging it, particularly, but it does solve some real problems.) > (That's why I'm concerned with the syntax of RHS domain-literals; unless > I know what other people are doing, I don't know what namespace I can > claim without anyone else stomping on me...) Yup. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDA8xV074988 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UDA8wg074987 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UDA8dR074978 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDBD29990; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UDA4Xn001251(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:10:05 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UDA2Bb001250(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:10:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:09:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506300909.58748.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 07:24, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > If nobody wants to say anything about this, I'm going to close it with a > "no change needed". I can't accept a change based on a single voice and no > raised objection. > > Harald > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > Date: onsdag, juni 08, 2005 13:32:05 +0200 > From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> > To: ietf-usefor@imc.org > Cc: > Subject: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? > > > New ticket: > > At the moment, section 3.2.2 of usefor-04 says: > > o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause > interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, > but MUST be accepted. If in fact there are "interoperability problems", they should be described, and if there is a problem meeting BCP 14 criteria, then MUST NOT would be indicated. However, the only issue appears to be that some UAs (no other software has need to parse a References field) are not compliant with the specifications (RFC 822, as referenced by RFCs 850 and 1036, has always permitted comments), and that isn't an interoperability problem of the sort described in BCP 14. s/cause interoperability problems/be misinterpreted by non-conforming parsers/ would be more accurate, avoiding the apparent conflict with BCP 14 w.r.t. serious interoperability issues. > --On 3. juni 2005 01:45 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" [...] > While we cannot change RFC 2822, it may be logical to change SHOULD > NOT to MUST NOT. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UCxpU4062673 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5UCxp5m062665 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5UCxnZ7062575 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4224A29939; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UCxjOD001191(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:46 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5UCxhZk001190(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:43 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:59:34 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506300859.35947.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 07:21, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Based on comments to Ken Murchison's text, I currently have the following > as resolution: > > [...] However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- > zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. > Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which use the > "GMT" zone. 2822 already requires that parsers accept the obs-zone abbreviations (with additional remarks about the 1-letter abbreviations), so that text is redundant and unnecessarily specific to "GMT". > NOTE: this specification does not change [RFC2822], which says > that agents MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include any zone names defined by <obs-zone>. > > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "-0000" when comparing dates, as specified > in [RFC2822] section 4.3. There has been some discussion on list about the lack of clarity of "unknown"; moreover, the suggested text implies that that is what RFC 2822 specifies, whereas the word "unknown" is not present in RFC 2822 at all. The relevant 2822 text refers specifically to abbreviations not included in the standardized ones which are in obs-zone for compatibility with legacy software and archived messages; that text is: Other multi-character (usually between 3 and 5) alphabetic time zones have been used in Internet messages. Any such time zone whose meaning is not known SHOULD be considered equivalent to "-0000" unless there is out-of-band information confirming their meaning. That text also refers to out-of-band information which is not mentioned in the suggested text. As implementers will need to read the normative RFC 2822 text, a simple reference to section 4.3 of RFC 2822 should suffice. Otherwise, the text should be as close as possible (i.e. identical) to the relevant 2822 text so as to avoid misinterpretation (Charles has said that an implementation might interpret "EST" as "unknown", which is certainly not the intent of RFC 2822). > (Since we're quoting requirements from 2822, I think it makes sense to put > the uppercase MUST and SHOULD in a NOTE - usually, it doesn't). Quoting is OK; paraphrasing can lead to misinterpretations. 2005-06-30:1 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U8aShl091810 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5U8aSoe091808 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:36:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U8aPc6091699 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA50E61AFB; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:36:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24380-08; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:36:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4706D61AF3; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:36:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:36:14 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org, Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Subject: Re: Decision procedures Message-ID: <AF703C8265623729795D01B6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506291219.38930.blilly@erols.com> References: <119CB22DD798D0073C9ACE7A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506291219.38930.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce, I believe you are referring --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 12:19:37 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Tue June 28 2005 16:33, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> RFC 2418 section 3.3: >> >> The other case is where the discussion has been held entirely over >> the mailing list. The determination of the level of consensus may be >> harder to do in this case since most people subscribed to mailing >> lists do not actively participate in discussions on the list. It is >> left to the discretion of the working group chair how to evaluate the >> level of consensus. >> >> Alexey and I decide. > > The section also states: > Consensus > can be determined by a show of hands, humming, or any other means on > which the WG agrees (by rough consensus, of course). Note that 51% > of the working group does not qualify as "rough consensus" and 99% is > better than rough. It is up to the Chair to determine if rough > consensus has been reached. > > Yes, we know that you and Alexey decide *if* consensus has been reached, > because that's explicitly what 2418 says. But 2418 explicitly says that > the WG gets to agree on the means. I have posted what a past co-chair > has indicated as the means, and I believe that that method had WG > consensus behind it. I believe you are referring to your posting: > For reference, a past > WG Chair had the following to say, and if I recall correctly, Alexey > has agreed: > On the topic of voting: Especially on this topic, I think voting > would be stupid. The decision is about rough consensus. One screaming > person does not indicate that there is no rough consensus, but one or > two well-reasoned arguments against a screaming huge crowd does. And > a huge number of "I'd prefer X, but I couldn't care less" votes > versus 2 or 3 well-argued "X will spell doom for the Internet, and Y > will save it" votes *is* rough consensus for Y over X. So voting > generally doesn't help me decide one way or the other that there is > rough consensus. This is a quote from Pete Resnick's message <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Jun/0099.html> - no need to be coy about who the previous chair is. >From the same message: > (It's > also clear, BTW, that people are not listening to each other and > aren't trying to think of where we can come to consensus, which is > why people think they need a vote.) Familiar? > The question, still unanswered, is whether or not that method, which > specifically calls for taking well-reasoned arguments into account, is > being followed by the current co-chairs in determining *if* consensus > is reached and where that consensus lies. If so, it would help if the > co-chairs were more vociferous about what fails to qualify as a > well-reasoned argument; we have certainly had plenty of unsupported > assertions and "false statement[s] deliberately presented as being true" > (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie) -- it would also help if, > when announcing that consensus has been reached, there were something > more substantive than a list of names. If not, there seems to be a > problem, as I don't recall a WG consensus decision (based on that > established means of determining consensus) to change the means of > determining consensus. One thing that probably should have been included: The fact that you think that you have a well-reasoned argument and your opponent's argument is totally beside the point has nothing to do with whether or not we have consensus. In fact, you having what you think is a well-reasoned argument and totally failing to convince anyone else that the argument is reasonable is just another way of becoming the "rough" in "rough consensus". I will NEVER rule "rough consensus" on anything where I know that the majority of the group thinks it's a stupid idea. When stating lists of names (which has happened rarely), I think of it mainly to make sure that the record shows that the decision was made in full knowledge of who does NOT agree; that these people have raised arguments against what has been ruled the consensus, their arguments have been heard, and the chairs have ruled that the group has consensus to proceed in spite of the disagreement. I will absolutely refuse to poison the atmosphere of this list further by stating that specific people are lying. I'll also refuse to say that specific people are idiots, trolls, stiff-necked fools or any other epithets. What should matter in determining consensus is the content of the argument. "False" is a statement about the argument. "Lie" is a statement about the person making it. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U7LmTx023547 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5U7LmOa023546 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U7Ll0W023523 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0747861AFB; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23649-08; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF1361AF3; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:21:43 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Message-ID: <DBD861979EC6EF845F72B90A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42C2A7B7.3993@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2A7B7.3993@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 15:52:55 +0200 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> path-address = IPv4address / no-fold-literal ; see [RFC2373] > > s/2373/3986/ > >> recycling no-fold-literal, I've added [] around addresses... > > Doesn't change the dead:beef:cafe:: problems, [ and ] are also > punctuation in 1036. no, the only improvement from my proposed text with dead:beef:cafe is that we isolate new-weird-characters like [:] to "diagnostic stuff" - we don't write anything that lets sites name themselves dead:beef. And I think discussion has shown that [] doesn't make the problem worse, so I see little argument for not using them if we use them elsewhere. There are only 3 ways I see to get rid of the : character: - Stop putting domain-literals in Path: at all (seems unacceptable) - Encode IPv6 addresses differently (seems unacceptable) - Treat IPv6 and IPv4 differently (seems unacceptable) If you've eliminated the impossible, what you're left with..... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U77BO3010586 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5U77BB1010585 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U779Mp010545 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0132B61AFB; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:07:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23649-03; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:07:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4E461AF3; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:07:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:07:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Ralph Babel <rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Message-ID: <912BD9F0B57EBB6C77475A13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> References: <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 18:03:25 +0200 Ralph Babel <rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified >> in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents > > "Netnews agent" isn't defined anywhere. Didn't > we at some point agree that Usefor was about > on-the-wire article _format_, not "agent" behavior? A number of "agents" are defined in the definitions sections. I was using "Netnews agents" as a way to refer to all of them. Just "agents" are probably better. But if we're talking about accepting at all, we must be willing to talk about the ones who accept. Otherwise, there's eternal wandering around in passages of the passive voice to be found, with no actor in sight. >> MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in >> Section 4 of [RFC2822], and MUST accept the "UTC" >> timezone (see section 3.1.2) > > What "UTC" timezone? "UT" maybe? And didn't we > just get rid of that one (for whatever reason)? My spelling error. I misspelled "GMT" as "UTC". Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U74QLn008751 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5U74QCS008750 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5U74OjG008729 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF06E61B61; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:04:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23633-02; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:04:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E134B61AF3; Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:04:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:04:20 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <81D9FCA6606E1B2AC39217F3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 22:35:23 +0200 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: >>> I think this makes it clear that in message-id, the question >>> of "what" the RHS is matters only to the generator, not to >>> the parsing entity; all we care about after generation is >>> that the message-ids are unique. > > But here I strongly disagree, I care _very much_ if somebody > generates a <whatever@xyzzy.claranet.de> without my permission > because it's my name space. And therefore <id-right> is a bad > name. ah - now I get the concern..... the requirement for uniqueness is not only that you generate names in a namespace that you control, but that I do *not* generate names in that namespace. Should we add a "MUST NOT generate msg-ids in id-rights you don't control"? (That's why I'm concerned with the syntax of RHS domain-literals; unless I know what other people are doing, I don't know what namespace I can claim without anyone else stomping on me...) Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TKhKXJ069842 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TKhKJP069841 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TKhH1x069763 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnjHJ-00009m-9c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:35:25 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:35:25 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:35:25 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:35:23 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 74 Message-ID: <42C3060B.14DD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > As with orig-date and zone, a redefinition of 2822-defined > grammar productions is a problem. Changing the production > name won't help in this case, as a msg-id is used in > precisely three places: the Message-ID, References, and > Supersedes fields, Also in Control: cancel, the historical s-o-1036 Also-Control, in article bodies, in news URLs (1738 + several drafts), and in paths and parameters of http-URLs for various archives, some of them based on NNTP. That's why the old idea <msg-id-core> was changed to <msg-id>, as you say _this_ production name should match RfC 2822. > all defined in external specifications (2822 and 2156). As well as 1036, 1738, s-o-1036, and 977bis, all with their own POV, often some "maximal" concept incompatible with the other "maximal" ideas. We need some maximal "least common denominator" for both syntax and semantics without conflicts. >> If domain literals are used, the syntax found in [RFC2821] >> section 4.1.3 is RECOMMENDED. > I'm not sure about that; the 2821 tagging scheme doesn't seem > to have generated much traction. I hear that a 2821bis draft > might appear soon ACK, I hope it adopts the STD 66 syntax for domain literals, maybe modulo the 2821-legacy "IPv6:" tag. > Informative references to RFCs 1054, 1918, 2715, 3330, 3849 > would be helpful to implementers. Yes, that's the Bruce as I know him, five RfCs I've never heard of, I only check it, you say if any important errata exist. 1054: obsoleted by 1112 (STD 5), updated etc., multicasting IPs 1918: private IPs, I didn't recognize the number, shame on me 2715: informational (multicasting again) 3330: informational (special use IPs), added to my local disk, apparently the complete IPv4 zoo, nice 3849: IPv6 examples, I didn't recognize the number Harald's wording for "stay away from domain literals" might be good enough. I still like STD 11, Dave's STRONGLY DISCOURAGED, and those who aren't discouraged simply must know what they do. >> I think this makes it clear that in message-id, the question >> of "what" the RHS is matters only to the generator, not to >> the parsing entity; all we care about after generation is >> that the message-ids are unique. But here I strongly disagree, I care _very much_ if somebody generates a <whatever@xyzzy.claranet.de> without my permission because it's my name space. And therefore <id-right> is a bad name. > It would seem that the same reasoning would apply to the LHS No, the name space abuse case is a matter of the <id-domain>, not of the <id-local>. As the names say. As they say it in various relevant standards in different ways. Excl. RfC 2822, that dropped the ball with its bad <id-right> obscuring the real meaning and purpose. It's not only about the good idea "unique", it's also about the evil idea "abuse". [Further notes incompatible with 997bis and many UAs skipped] Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TKP7dq050239 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TKP7k8050238 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TKP7x7050231 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5TKP61i000738 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:06 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ED284E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text In-Reply-To: <200506292005.j5TK5NS07614@panix5.panix.com> (Seth Breidbart's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT)") References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> <ZPUF1uW8OswCFABa@highwayman.com> <87irzxysxq.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506292005.j5TK5NS07614@panix5.panix.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:05 -0700 Message-ID: <87psu4ud0e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: >> You have to parse the whole article before you can reject based on the >> Path header. Parsing the message ID lets you decline cancels you're >> uninterested in before the article is sent to your server. > Telling your neighbor "cyberspam is a synonym for me" means you don't > even have to look at the message ID because your neighbor won't attempt > to send you those cancels in the first place. Yes, that's even better, but it assumes cooperative upstream peers that can do this sort of configuration. Per the feature requests we got for INN, this was often not the case. (Not to mention that many news sites have hundreds of peers, and contacting them all is rather difficult.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TK5PLk028647 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TK5PaP028646 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TK5OpW028639 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8759F9DA4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TK5NS07614; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506292005.j5TK5NS07614@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <87irzxysxq.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> (message from Russ Allbery on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:29 -0700) Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> <ZPUF1uW8OswCFABa@highwayman.com> <87irzxysxq.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: > Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >> Servers that wish to ignore cancels (or wish to distinguish amongst the >> various parts) are clearly _intended_ to process the last few elements >> of the Path: header field data, looking for the "pseudosite" strings >> that they are prepared to accept (or not) [since they're not in the UUCP >> message maps they're some of the most used non-DNS based strings >> ... cyberspam, mmfcancel, bincancel, spewcancel and doubtless others >> I've forgotten] > > You have to parse the whole article before you can reject based on the > Path header. Parsing the message ID lets you decline cancels you're > uninterested in before the article is sent to your server. Telling your neighbor "cyberspam is a synonym for me" means you don't even have to look at the message ID because your neighbor won't attempt to send you those cancels in the first place. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TJPm5b095555 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TJPmIi095549 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TJPlEp095498 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8472994C; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TJPhHx029007(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:25:43 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TJPfoi029006(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:25:41 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:25:34 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506291525.35436.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 05:36, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > OK, here's the proposed text for the problems I outlined yesterday: > NEW: > > The Message-ID header contains a single unique message identifier. Seems to need "field" per the decision on "header". > News is more dependent on msg-id uniqueness and fast comparision than > email is, and I'm not convinced about "more"; email and news use several of the same (i.e. combined functionality) UAs and protocols (e.g. IMAP) and the same use of Message-ID, References, and Supersedes fields, the same "threading" algorithms in those UAs, etc. Uniqueness is certainly an issue for email and for other applications layered on the Message Format, which itself mentions global uniqueness. I agree with Henry about "fast" also. > some news software would have trouble with the full range > of possible msg-ids permitted by RFC 2822; this section therefore > restricts the syntax of <msg-id> compared to Section 3.6.4 of > [RFC2822]. Some news software may indeed have trouble, but I believe it is important to distinguish between broken implementations with few global implications e.g. UAs and isolated sites that have never complied with RFC 822, 850, 1036 syntax through more serious problems (NNTP constraints) to global problems (none?). More detail below. > The global uniqueness > requirement for <msg-id> in [RFC2822] is to be understood as applying > across all protocols using such message identifiers, and across both > Email and Netnews in particular. OK. I wouldn't mind the latter part expanded to "all applications which use the Internet Message Format [RFC2822]". > OLD (ABNF): [...] NEW: As with orig-date and zone, a redefinition of 2822-defined grammar productions is a problem. Changing the production name won't help in this case, as a msg-id is used in precisely three places: the Message-ID, References, and Supersedes fields, and those are all defined in external specifications (2822 and 2156). That leaves implementation notes to deal with any concrete issues. > NEW: > > Some software will try to match the <id-right> of a msg-id in > a case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case sensitive > fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate two message-IDs where the > only difference is the case of characters in the <id-right> part. That's OK as one implementation note. > If domain literals are used, the syntax found in [RFC2821] section > 4.1.3 is RECOMMENDED. I'm not sure about that; the 2821 tagging scheme doesn't seem to have generated much traction. I hear that a 2821bis draft might appear soon, perhaps some off-list communication with JCK and IPv6 experts might be in order. > NOTE: [RFC2822] section 3.6.4 recommends that the <id-right> should > be a domain name or a domain literal. Domain literals are troublesome > since many IP addresses are not globally unique; domain names are > more likely to generate unique message-IDs. OK. Informative references to RFCs 1054, 1918, 2715, 3330, 3849 would be helpful to implementers. > In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving a <msg-id> > to change behaviour based on a theory about how the <msg-id> was > generated. Pick British or American spelling; I don't care as long as it's consistent. > I think this makes it clear that in message-id, the question of "what" the > RHS is matters only to the generator, not to the parsing entity; all we > care about after generation is that the message-ids are unique. It would seem that the same reasoning would apply to the LHS, i.e. there's no problem with <"foo"@example.edu> so long as example.edu doesn't generate ids like <foo@example.edu>, <f\oo@example.edu>, etc. Lacking any concrete statements from other WG participants about specific issues, and noting that whitespace is already prohibited in a msg-id by 2822 syntax, here's a stab at some more implementation notes: NOTE: The NNTP protocol [RFC977] has no provision for quoting and uses the space character as a delimiter. While msg-id syntax prohibits CFWS in a msg-id, a space character is permitted within a quoted-pair within a quoted-string in id-left, e.g. <"foo\ bar"@example.org>. Implementations SHOULD therefore avoid such an id-left construct. "SHOULD" because a "private" installation of "cooperating" "systems" known not to use NNTP need not be concerned about NNTP foibles. My understanding is that the NNTP issues affects only the Message-ID field directly, so such a note could go in that field's section. For that matter, it's an external protocol issue, so it could go in USEPRO or USEAGE. NOTE: The NNTP protocol [RFC977] transmits msg-ids in a fixed-length command-line. While the length of a msg-id is constrained (to 997 octets including angle brackets by the line length limit of [RFC2822]), NNTP cannot handle a msg-id longer than 500 octets due to the command-line limit. Implementations SHOULD therefore not generate a msg-id longer than 500 octets including angle brackets. Same rationale as above for "SHOULD". Same regarding placement. NOTE: Although the length of a msg-id is constrained to 997 octets, and a legal domain name may be up to 255 octets in length, some news software implementations silently truncate a msg-id at 255 octets. Such implementations SHOULD be upgraded as soon as practicable to support a msg-id length of 997 octets. Implementations that exchange messages which may be sent to a legacy implementation should limit msg-id length to no more than 255 octets if possible. Clearly the problem here is some legacy implementations, since a domain name has always been allowed to be up to 255 octets (RFC 882). The onus is placed on ancient implementations to modernize to 1980s technology, while interoperating implementations are encouraged to play nice where possible (clearly a site with a 252-octet domain name cannot do so). Placement in USEFOR or USEAGE would probably be fine. 2005-06-29:5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TJENFC082570 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TJEMam082564 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TJEJCZ082476 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dnhsv-0001YV-5Z for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:06:09 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:06:09 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:06:09 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:10:38 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 44 Message-ID: <42C2F22E.1DEA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <12403.9609371268$1119985678@news.gmane.org> <42C1AEBB.4E7F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291247.47520.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> that's what I posted (truncated header): >> Message-ID: <"\=1B[7;0m"@xyzzy.claranet.de> [...] > gmane isn't "Netnews", it's an interface to mailing lists. It's a news server presenting mailing lists as moderated NGs (+ one real group =B0junk") plus some magic to get message-IDs in "X-Posts" (mails to several lists) right. But okay, let's say that one test on GMaNe isn't good enough, I repeated it with the same Message-ID in alt.test and: X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <"\=1B[7;m"@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:24:33 +0200 From: Message-ID Test <42C2E761.16EF@xyzzy.claranet.de> Newsgroups: alt.test Subject: ignore noreply Message-ID Test It didn't appear. It didn't show up in junk. I tested a normal article in claranet.test, no problem. If the test article is for some obscure reason delayed we'll see it as <http://purl.net/msgid/%22%5C%1B%5B7%3Bm@xyzzy.claranet.de> > the ad hominem is unwelcome. NetNews two *1) nil Better ? *1: the person claiming that NO-WS-CTL worked for decades: <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format/27849/match=3Ddeca= des> *1: nice search engine, <http://rain.gmane.org> You can test author: blilly@erols.com, group: gmane.ietf.usenet.format, search word: lie (12 hits), *1: as long as I don't say "Mr. Lilly" there's no real problem from my POV. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TI1RfP003620 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TI1R2s003619 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:01:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TI1Pq5003594 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dngjy-0006Oo-Gt for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:52:50 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:52:50 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:52:50 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:59:18 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42C2E176.4133@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629092643.18036B-100000@spsystems.net> <200506291552.j5TFqj918742@panix5.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart wrote: > One April 1, admins from The Hierarchy That Shall Not Be > Named all decided to add one bogus entry to their Path Curious, what hierarchy might that be, something starting with "f" or ending with "2" ? > It typically showed up several times in every article, > with no observable effects. For a _bogus_ path entry I'd expect no effect, but for a _real_ path entry it could be interesting. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THfaSM081790 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THfauS081787 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THfXRN081629 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DngRj-0003RG-5V for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:33:59 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:33:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:33:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:39:21 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 19 Message-ID: <42C2DCC9.1567@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> <IIr4n5.6JG@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280929.55982.blilly@erols.com> <IIuKoJ.F5z@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > a <path-identity> is a "public name", identifying a > particular server. Fine, extend this good idea to s/id-right/is-domain/ ;-) > Random sites in random places are already using > "clerew.man.ac.uk", judging by the bogus bounce messages > I receive from time to time :-( . Publish a v=spf1 sender policy, it works after some weeks. State "approved", substate "point raised - writeup needed". > SHOULD be an A record for the agent concerned, or an MX > record that is mailable Don't forget the AAAA case, bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THf8e6081163 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THf8vU081162 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THf7Dx081122 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THf6Q6012149 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:06 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 09309E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) In-Reply-To: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:33:30 +0200") References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:41:06 -0700 Message-ID: <87slz1xdql.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > At the moment, it seems that we're at an impasse partially caused by our > documents' failure to explain what a "path-identity" is. I don't know if > I understand it either.... > At the moment, the specific format and use of path-identity is punted to > USEPRO, where it seems to be still undefined. > If we explained it, would this be a reasonable text to insert in 3.1.6? > (I've modified the BNF too. Only modified stuff included here) This looks okay to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THbORE077174 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THbOmv077173 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THbN0W077136 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THbMhh006319 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:22 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 75BCAE7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1042 USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups folding - resolution proposal In-Reply-To: <3C401D02F140FAB69424300E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:38:47 +0200") References: <3C401D02F140FAB69424300E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:37:22 -0700 Message-ID: <87wtodxdwt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > Suggested addition to section 3.1.5: > Folding the Newsgroups: header field over several header lines has been > shown to harm propagation significantly. Folded Newsgroups header fields > SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. > The only valid reason identified at this time for generating folded > Newsgroups header fields is to test propagation of articles using that > feature. Looks good to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THavQG076723 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THavga076722 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THausL076689 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THatXn022181 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:55 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 64087E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:55 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:24:24 +0200") References: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:36:55 -0700 Message-ID: <871x6lysi0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > If nobody wants to say anything about this, I'm going to close it with a > "no change needed". I can't accept a change based on a single voice and > no raised objection. I don't think the interoperability problem caused by comments in References is sufficient to really justify a MUST NOT. I think comments in References is very silly, but it's not our silliness, it's RFC 2822. As a mail to news gateway author, I'd rather push news towards being able to cope with RFC 2822 silliness rather than being forced to do more and more fixups at the conversion step. So I'm happy with the existing text. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THXmcu073263 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THXm5r073262 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THXlAm073256 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THXkAC005049 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:47 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0E51E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal In-Reply-To: <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:23 +0200") References: <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:46 -0700 Message-ID: <8764vxysn9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > I suggest the following text change to section 2.1 of USEFOR: > OLD: > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax > specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate > productions of such syntax. > NEW: > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax > specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], and MUST accept the "UTC" > timezone (see section 3.1.2) and the obs-phrase construct (see > [RFC2822] section 4.1) but they MUST NOT generate productions of such > syntax. You meant GMT here, I assume? Other than that, this looks fine to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THWFZQ071527 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THWDOJ071434 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THWCQ4071427 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THWCrr004536 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:12 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 09AAFE7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed In-Reply-To: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37:49 +0200") References: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:12 -0700 Message-ID: <87acl9yspv.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in > various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used > for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific > purpose, or by local agreement. > Groups starting with the component "junk" This rule is not strictly necessary. What do other people think about allowing things like junk.foo? You need to add: Groups starting with the component "control" as well; it's not just the group "control". Other than that, I'm okay with this. I'd still rather that the protocol stuff be in USEPRO, but after thinking about it, I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue it at any additional length, and I don't think it really hurts much to put it into USEFOR. I wouldn't object to the changes Forrest suggested either, though. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THW2Uo071212 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THW2Ie071211 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THW1Xe071181 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DngIO-0001ro-6f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:24:20 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:24:20 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:24:20 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:29:38 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 10 Message-ID: <42C2DA82.3905@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280959.47701.blilly@erols.com> <IIuLqs.FE9@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > At that point of time, the probability of their existing any > then current <path-identity> that will cause problems when > ":" starts to appear (in IPv6 addresses, for example) is > exceedingly small. BTW, that's an advantage of Harald's idea, he restricts this to _only_ IPv6, after s/no-fold-literal/IPv6address/ Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THTtDn069055 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THTtlZ069054 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THTs6j069032 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5THTlgE024557 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C2DA8C.30307@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:29:48 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: > Yesterday Charles wrote something in the direction of > SHOULD NOT => permission, and now you apparently propose > SHOULD NOT => allowed. Do all here think that a SHOULD > (NOT) is something like "please (not)", or worse that > SHOULD NOT is just a shorthand for "of course you can" ? "All" here? Please don't be ridiculous! We need not care about people who cannot read and correctly understand RFC2119 language. We can ignore that they exist when writing. That leaves us with the ability to use RFC2119 terms as defined. So "SHOULD NOT" means "do it this way only if you have no good alternative in full awareness and consideration of the pain you cause yourself or others." > There is a reason to allow generation, legacy software. > > Decreeing that legacy software is non-conformant without > good reason is also a dubious idea. And in my parallel > universe it's not allowed to implement any new software > generating GMT if the specification says "SHOULD NOT" - > legacy software is the only possible excuse in this case. There are N different ways that legacy software will not conform to these drafts. To me, that means that making legacy software non-conformant is not a serious factor in making a choice over one wording or another, with timezones or anything else. BTW, does RFC2822 use the "MUST NOT" language for this? Instead I think it says "zone MUST be within the range -9959 through +9959" That is subtly different. A "MUST NOT" is taken to mean that something breaks, so a MUST NOT GENERATE/MUST ACCEPT may be correct, but I agree is kind of weird. I like the RFC2822 "MUST generate/MUST accept" instead. (...which we need not repeat.) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THSSg6067523 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THSRkf067522 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THSRV3067516 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THSQ0K019586 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:26 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6BA88E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:26 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text In-Reply-To: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:26 +0200") References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:28:26 -0700 Message-ID: <87ekalysw5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > OK, here's the proposed text for the problems I outlined yesterday: This looks good to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THRVKS066476 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THRVOw066475 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THRUC7066455 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5THRTlm019283 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:30 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A46F5E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text In-Reply-To: <ZPUF1uW8OswCFABa@highwayman.com> (Richard Clayton's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:52:28 +0100") References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> <ZPUF1uW8OswCFABa@highwayman.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:27:29 -0700 Message-ID: <87irzxysxq.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: > Although I can imagine that there exists software that does practically > anything -- I believe that the intent of the conventions is that the > $alz scheme (which means that one is able to predict the cancel message > ID) is to ensure that only one cancel floods out, no matter how many > robots generate it (in the extended scheme with a secret, the cabal of > cancellers share the secret amongst themselves -- same difference!) > Servers that wish to ignore cancels (or wish to distinguish amongst the > various parts) are clearly _intended_ to process the last few elements > of the Path: header field data, looking for the "pseudosite" strings > that they are prepared to accept (or not) [since they're not in the UUCP > message maps they're some of the most used non-DNS based strings > ... cyberspam, mmfcancel, bincancel, spewcancel and doubtless others > I've forgotten] You have to parse the whole article before you can reject based on the Path header. Parsing the message ID lets you decline cancels you're uninterested in before the article is sent to your server. INN does indeed support this (off by default) due to significant popular demand. The $alz convention is a kludge, though, and I'm not sure that the environment in which this sort of thing was important, back in the days of hundreds of thousands of cancels a day, is still as much of a concern. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THOj7Q063563 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THOjaZ063559 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THOi8h063459 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5THObND061145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506291005210.17228@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >I haven't seen an answer to this question - would anyone else like to >answer? Russ, as I recall, explained the problem quite sufficiently. Charles' question does not demonstrate the problem, and I suspect was chosen specifically because it does not. The issue is not systems that have no special relationship to any of the problem components of the path header. They will do nothing differently. That's pretty obvious. If I see "dead" or "dead:beef" in the Path header field, and I neither feed nor accept articles from either, then of course there is no difference. However, if I feed site "dead" and I am RFC1036 conformant, then no article that has passed through the site "dead:beef" will I feed to site "dead". Nor will I feed the site "dead" any article that has passed through the site using the IPv6 domain-literal "ff::dead:128.99.32.1". Furthermore, if I feed site "dead:beef" and am RFC1036 conformant, then I will happily feed any article I get that has already passed through "dead:beef" back to "dead:beef", since I will not see the path identity "dead:beef" in the Path header field, only the two sites "dead" and "beef". This is not a complete meltdown of the news system, but then, nobody has ever said it was. It is a serious disruption of the news feed to the site "dead", however. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THMIo9060813 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5THMIKL060812 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5THMGVk060764 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dng98-0000Ph-1N for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:14:46 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:14:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:14:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:16:28 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42C2D76C.49BC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42C2A349.4FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291616.SAA09438@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ralph Babel wrote: > Actually, you don't recall correctly. <http://www.xs4all.nl/~rosalind/faq-care.html#cancel-message> <http://www.killfile.org/faqs/cancel.html#II.B.> $alz-convention <http://www.killfile.org/faqs/cancel.html#II.C.> cancel example > Gee, folks, it's not rocket science. Not guilty, convince Rosalind and Skirvin. I already had my fun with trying to cancel two unjustified cancels. Your idea also answers Harald's question, sometimes a <msg-id> is parsed. And you implicitly said that the RHS is important, how about joining the s/id-left@id-right/id-local@id-domain/ club ? The news-nntp-uri drafts want at least the "@" (unlike NNTP): http://purl.net/xyzzy/home/test/draft-lindsey-news-nntp-uri-00 http://purl.net/xyzzy/home/test/draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-00 Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH9c0B046690 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TH9cr9046687 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH9Zeo046591 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3CA9DA5E for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TH9ZN27144; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291709.j5TH9ZN27144@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> (message from Frank Ellermann on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:47:07 +0200) Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: > Seth Breidbart wrote: >> I agree it's odd. I still think we should do it. > [...] >> "MUST NOT generate" because there's no reason to allow >> generation > > Yesterday Charles wrote something in the direction of > SHOULD NOT => permission, and now you apparently propose > SHOULD NOT => allowed. Do all here think that a SHOULD > (NOT) is something like "please (not)", or worse that > SHOULD NOT is just a shorthand for "of course you can" ? I think that SHOULD NOT is more permissive than MUST NOT. "MUST NOT" = don't do it. Period. "SHOULD NOT" = don't do it unless you have a good reason. > There is a reason to allow generation, legacy software. That's a reason to require acceptance (which we all agree should be done). >> allowing more than FRC 2822 (it says "MUST NOT >> generate") is something we ought to do only with very >> good reason; oddness of wording isn't such a reason. > > Decreeing that legacy software is non-conformant without > good reason is also a dubious idea. So the question is which is worse: being _more permissive_ than RFC 2822 (which we aren't anywhere else, are we?) or decreeing that legacy software is non-conformant with a new spec? > And in my parallel universe it's not allowed to implement any new > software generating GMT if the specification says "SHOULD NOT" - Unfortunately, some implementors won't agree with you. They'll find other reasons that are good enough for them. (At least, that's my guess.) > legacy software is the only possible excuse in this case. I suspect people are more ingenious at coming up with excuses than you believe. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH5vRt042841 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TH5vh0042840 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH5uLA042826 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3E058B2B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TH5t410776; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291705.j5TH5t410776@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> (message from Bruce Lilly on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:36 -0400) Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > It's also unclear exactly how this works in practice: suppose servers A > and B participate in "Xref-slaving". At some point in time, server A > receives a crossposted article (newsgroups X and Y, with article numbers > 12345 and 98765 respectively) from somewhere other than B, includes a > field > Xref: A X:12345 Y:98765 > and forwards it to B, which presumably files the article in the same > newsgroups with the same numbers. That means that B is the slave of A. > Subsequently, server B receives (not from A; perhaps from one of > those thousands of clients from all over the globe which are > connected as clients to server B) an article posted only to group Y, > and files it as article number 98766. That would make B a peer of A, not a slave. Slaves don't get to assign article numbers. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH0w8Q039546 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TH0w6L039545 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TH0vSP039539 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5TH0unC026620 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:56 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45207E7CC5; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:56 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <IIuMEn.FIq@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:49:34 GMT") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIuMEn.FIq@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:56 -0700 Message-ID: <87vf3xyu5z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Right! I see your problem now. How about: > 7. It MUST (exept when specially configured to preserve the > <article-locator>s set by the sending site) remove any Xref > header (F-3.2.11) from each article. It then MAY (and usually > will) generate a fresh Xref header. That sounds better to me, yes. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGuG3S034998 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGuFTM034996 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGuEVd034977 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCCA9DA4D for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TGuEH15937; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291656.j5TGuEH15937@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <IIun7J.FMv@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IIun7J.FMv@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > My opinion is that I see no need to be more restrictive than RFC 2822 > here, and that it is better to preserve the names <id-left> and <id-right> > for consistency with RFC 2822, even though we give them new syntax. I think that's less consistent (and more confusing) than using new terms for the new syntax. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGtLn8033918 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGtLpp033917 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGtKAt033904 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5TGtJm9029505 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:19 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 43D90E7CB0; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:19 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:36 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:55:19 -0700 Message-ID: <87zmt9yufc.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Tue June 28 2005 22:46, Russ Allbery wrote: >> Except that the text you included says: >> 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It >> then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. >> This is wrong for Xref slaving. The serving agent does not remove the >> Xref header when Xref slaving is being used. > Russ, I think I need some clarification: > Are you saying that the "server-name" part remains unchanged? Yup. > Also, if not, (i.e. the "server-name" is the same), how is this > effectively different (from the POV of any connecting client) from "one > big serving agent"? The whole point of Xref slaving is to try to make things look the same to the connecting client. However, the connecting client isn't the only point of view or the only connection that we have to think about. It's completely different from the perspective of the serving agents themselves. > It's also unclear exactly how this works in practice: suppose servers A > and B participate in "Xref-slaving". At some point in time, server A > receives a crossposted article (newsgroups X and Y, with article numbers > 12345 and 98765 respectively) from somewhere other than B, includes a > field > Xref: A X:12345 Y:98765 > and forwards it to B, which presumably files the article in the same > newsgroups with the same numbers. Right. > Subsequently, server B receives (not from A; perhaps from one of those > thousands of clients from all over the globe which are connected as > clients to server B) an article posted only to group Y, and files it as > article number 98766. You can't Xref-slave against more than one server at the same time, nor can you assign numbers locally. In an Xref slaving configuration, B will perform its normal injection agent duties and then rather than storing the article locally will immediately relay it to A *without* assigning article numbers. It will then wait for A to send it back with article numbers assigned before storing it locally. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGotOf029274 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGotiv029271 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGor6t029226 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:50:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dnfdi-0003c2-T8 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:42:18 +0200 Received: from du-001-228.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:42:18 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-228.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:42:18 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:47:07 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 30 Message-ID: <42C2D08B.2138@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-228.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart wrote: > I agree it's odd. I still think we should do it. [...] > "MUST NOT generate" because there's no reason to allow > generation Yesterday Charles wrote something in the direction of SHOULD NOT => permission, and now you apparently propose SHOULD NOT => allowed. Do all here think that a SHOULD (NOT) is something like "please (not)", or worse that SHOULD NOT is just a shorthand for "of course you can" ? There is a reason to allow generation, legacy software. Russ found mumble (more than 10% IIRC) GMT timestamps, and unlike the also popular EDT / EST a GMT is harmless. > allowing more than FRC 2822 (it says "MUST NOT > generate") is something we ought to do only with very > good reason; oddness of wording isn't such a reason. Decreeing that legacy software is non-conformant without good reason is also a dubious idea. And in my parallel universe it's not allowed to implement any new software generating GMT if the specification says "SHOULD NOT" - legacy software is the only possible excuse in this case. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGm1iH026147 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGm0nE026144 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGm0wP026115 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61C82993A; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGlrop028243(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:47:57 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGlpg5028242(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:47:52 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:47:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <12403.9609371268$1119985678@news.gmane.org> <42C1AEBB.4E7F@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C1AEBB.4E7F@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506291247.47520.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 28 2005 16:10, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > > P.S.: Just for fun I test it with this article. > > Here's what I got back from GMaNe: > > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format:29206:raw > Message-ID: <12403.9609371268$1119985678@news.gmane.org> > > And that's what I posted (truncated header): > > Message-ID: <"\[7;0m"@xyzzy.claranet.de> > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:02 +0200 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > NetNews one Bruce nil. Bye, Frank First, gmane isn't "Netnews", it's an interface to mailing lists. Second, gmane is know to make specific transformations to some message identifiers, so you have suceeded in showing that a non- "Netnews" system in fact makes transformations that it was a priori known to make; no surprise. Third, the ad hominem is unwelcome. 2005-06-29:4 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGerUd018230 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGerPS018229 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGeqsp018176 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2305229948; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGeiUx028166(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:50 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGefrB028165(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:42 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:40:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506291240.37137.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 28 2005 22:46, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > > I think it is OK. If you have a farm of serving agents that keep their > > Xrefs in step, do you regard passing articles between those agents as > > "relaying" > > Yes. > > > IOW, is that whole farm just "one big serving agent" from the POV of our > > draft? > > No. There are reasons why you might want to Xref slave to a news feed > that isn't at your site or even run by you. They're rare, but there's no > particular reason to disallow it. (Consider, for example, the case where > you run a personal local news server as basically a cache for your ISP's > remote news server and want to be able to switch between servers whenever > you feel like it without renumbering.) > > > If the answer is "relaying", then the present "relayers MAY delete" > > suffices. > > Except that the text you included says: > > 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It > then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. > > This is wrong for Xref slaving. The serving agent does not remove the > Xref header when Xref slaving is being used. Russ, I think I need some clarification: Are you saying that the "server-name" part remains unchanged? If not, how is the end result conceptually different from remove/generate? Also, if not, (i.e. the "server-name" is the same), how is this effectively different (from the POV of any connecting client) from "one big serving agent"? It's also unclear exactly how this works in practice: suppose servers A and B participate in "Xref-slaving". At some point in time, server A receives a crossposted article (newsgroups X and Y, with article numbers 12345 and 98765 respectively) from somewhere other than B, includes a field Xref: A X:12345 Y:98765 and forwards it to B, which presumably files the article in the same newsgroups with the same numbers. Subsequently, server B receives (not from A; perhaps from one of those thousands of clients from all over the globe which are connected as clients to server B) an article posted only to group Y, and files it as article number 98766. At the same time, server A receives (from one of its global clients) an article crossposted to newsgroups X and Y again, which it duly files as articles 12346 and 98766 on A, with an Xref field Xref: A X:12346 Y:98766 and forwards to B. What happens to the very different article in newsgroup Y on B which is already numbered 98766? 2005-06-29:3 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGJpiD095864 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGJp7v095859 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:19:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGJoCv095843 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03EC29905; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGJlEA027984(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:19:48 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TGJi9F027982(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:19:46 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Decision procedures (Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:19:37 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <119CB22DD798D0073C9ACE7A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <119CB22DD798D0073C9ACE7A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506291219.38930.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 28 2005 16:33, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > RFC 2418 section 3.3: > > The other case is where the discussion has been held entirely over > the mailing list. The determination of the level of consensus may be > harder to do in this case since most people subscribed to mailing > lists do not actively participate in discussions on the list. It is > left to the discretion of the working group chair how to evaluate the > level of consensus. > > Alexey and I decide. The section also states: Consensus can be determined by a show of hands, humming, or any other means on which the WG agrees (by rough consensus, of course). Note that 51% of the working group does not qualify as "rough consensus" and 99% is better than rough. It is up to the Chair to determine if rough consensus has been reached. Yes, we know that you and Alexey decide *if* consensus has been reached, because that's explicitly what 2418 says. But 2418 explicitly says that the WG gets to agree on the means. I have posted what a past co-chair has indicated as the means, and I believe that that method had WG consensus behind it. The question, still unanswered, is whether or not that method, which specifically calls for taking well-reasoned arguments into account, is being followed by the current co-chairs in determining *if* consensus is reached and where that consensus lies. If so, it would help if the co-chairs were more vociferous about what fails to qualify as a well-reasoned argument; we have certainly had plenty of unsupported assertions and "false statement[s] deliberately presented as being true" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie) -- it would also help if, when announcing that consensus has been reached, there were something more substantive than a list of names. If not, there seems to be a problem, as I don't recall a WG consensus decision (based on that established means of determining consensus) to change the means of determining consensus. 2005-06-29:2 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGGPtZ092489 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGGPxq092488 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from madcow.cryp.to (madcow.cryp.to [193.123.234.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGGNAL092464 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de) Received: from nemesis.pfm-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by madcow.cryp.to with ESMTP id j5TGGM4f008614 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:16:22 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:16:11 +0200 Message-Id: <200506291616.SAA09438@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> In-Reply-To: <42C2A349.4FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: > In that case an intentional collision, one <cancel.old@id> > is enough to cancel the <old@id> spam. In a more > elaborated form it's <cancel.secret.old@id>, because the > bad guys started to send a dummy <cancel.old@id> before > the <old@id> spam, this dummy blocked the spam cancel. > IIRC, Actually, you don't recall correctly. The bad guys are the ones that pollute other people's message-ID space instead of agreeing on a canonical way of encoding the original message ID in the cancel message ID _without_ resorting to the original RHS, e.g. by moving it to the LHS of the cancel's message ID. Gee, folks, it's not rocket science. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFsR2092039 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFsb4092035 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFr65092009 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c938.83ba.46 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:52 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCII20871 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21703 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Message-ID: <IIun7J.FMv@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:06:55 GMT Lines: 62 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >1 - Is News message-ID different from 2822 message-id? > As far as I can see, consensus YES - there exist valid 2822 message-iDs >that are not valid News message-ids, but not vice versa (News msgid is a >strict subset of 2822 msg-id). And current text (with bug fixed) is a >reasonable description of the subset. >2 - Is the RHS of the message-ID a domain, a domain|ipv4literal or a >domain|ipv4literal|ipv6literal, or an "opaquestring"? > As far as I can see, there is no clear-cut consensus. >3 - Is the RHS of the message-ID case sensitive or case insensitive? > Here, I think consensus is clear, based on existing implementations' >behaviour: Once generated, you cannot change them, and making 2 message-IDs >with the same LHS and only different in case on the RHS is NOT a good idea. >[deep breath] >Is this a fair statement of the issues being discussed? Pretty well. #1 just needs the bug fix. #2 and #3 are related, insofar as once you have devised the <msg-id>, then it is opaque from then on. RFC 2822 clearly allows, and even RECOMMENDs, using a domain-name or an IP-literal as the <id-right>. Frank wants two things: #2a) To deprecate IP-literals in favour of domain-names. That would go beyond what RFC 2822 is saying. #2b) To use more "suggestive" names in place of <id-left> and <id-right> (that would not make any technical difference). My opinion is that I see no need to be more restrictive than RFC 2822 here, and that it is better to preserve the names <id-left> and <id-right> for consistency with RFC 2822, even though we give them new syntax. Note that I have proposed the following text as being slightly clearer that the wording currently in USEFOR: NOTE: It in RECOMMENDED in [RFC 2822] that, for ensuring global uniqueness, the <id-right> be some domain identifier within whose scope the uniqueness of the <id-left> can be guaranteed. Hence, when following this recommendation, any <no-fold-literal> used for the <id-right> should be of the form of an Internet address, in accordance with Section 3.4.1 of [RFC2822]. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFr41092016 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFrB1092015 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFq99092006 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c934.83ba.45 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:48 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCDS20845 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21698 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIuKoJ.F5z@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> <IIr4n5.6JG@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280929.55982.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:12:19 GMT Lines: 60 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506280929.55982.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 12:33, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> In <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >> >> >We need to specify the semantics of a "path-identity" as one of: >> >o an opaque label >> >o a public name >> >o domain names, IP-addresses, etc. >> >> No we don't. >> >> 1. I am not clear what is the distinction between "opaque label" and >> "public name", or whether it matters for our purpose. >See RFC 1958. Yes. Having read that, I think a <path-identity> is a "public name", identifying a particular server. >So you see no problem in some random site in some random place with >some random affiliation using the opaque label "clerew.man.ac.uk". Random sites in random places are already using "clerew.man.ac.uk", judging by the bogus bounce messages I receive from time to time :-( . However, the text that is to go in Usefor states quite clearly that any FQDN used as a <path-identity> SHOULD be an A record for the agent concerned, or an MX record that is mailable. I would have thought it pretty obvious that any FQDN or IP address used was intended to be one relevant to that agent, but if you want me to spell that out in excruciating detail, then I could do so. > >> >> Also, in order to detect MISMATCHes, you will likely need to know whether >> >> the IP address the NNTP packet >> >> >NNTP is not the only transport mechanism. >> >> So? >So a mismatch in source of UUCP data requires no IP address information, >and your argument equating a specific case with the general case fails. You missed the word "likely". There are ways other than the IP address used in packets for identifying the site that is relaying to you - for example an authorization identity obtained from a SASL exchange. Naturally, as you observe, UUCP data will not be accompanied by an IP address, but UUCP incorporates its own methods of identitying the sender. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFjnM091985 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFjgL091984 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFhPB091966 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c929.83ba.44 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:37 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCNe20890 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:23 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21705 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Admin: Ticket status Message-ID: <IIuotz.Fv8@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <608CA538DBC4F0DF19F3E69D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:41:59 GMT Lines: 67 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <608CA538DBC4F0DF19F3E69D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I'm listing the tickets in numeric order. >1002 USEFOR 6. References - Updates needed > Resolution proposed on June 14, no objection to content. > Status: "text accepted". I still hanker after a bit more semantic text in USEFOR, and even invited Forrest to raise a ticket to create some. But I am not pushing it. What is there, plus what is now in USEPRO will suffice, - just. >1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - Can we deprecate X- headers? > Status: Text proposed. Some debate on X-Mailer. I prefer no action. >1021 USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups header ABNF and description needs cleanup > Status: "Text proposed" - debate. Need to review. >1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? > Status: "No consensus" - still only 2 voices. I thought we were agreed to allow it. It was certainly so in our earlier drafts. >1032 USEFOR general: Document changes from RFC 1036 > Status: "Text needed" There is text currently in USEPRO, which should be reviewed (also the "transitional arrangements" text). Maybe it finally gets moved to USEFOR. >1042 USEFOR 3.1.5: Newsgroups folding? > Status: "Text needed". I think there's consensus that at this time, > we cannot recommend folding newsgroups. I think it is agreed that folding should be in the syntax and hence MUST be accepted (though it will take a while). The issue is whether we say MUST NOT generate, SHOULD NOT generate (cf related matter of comments in References), or SHOULD NOT generate until ... (or various other weaker formulations). Could we settle on SHOULD NOT? >1046 USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations > Status: "Text needed". Principle seems uncontroversial..... Does not the problem already exist in mail? Have mail standards raised this as a security consideration? >1047 USEFOR 3.1.6: Path field delimiters and components > Status: "Text needed" There is a NOTE I proposed in Reply to John. It probably needs more work. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFcMm091933 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFcQ8091932 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFbi5091901 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c928.83ba.43 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:36 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCKG20876 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:20 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21704 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW USEPRO 7.9 gateway (was: LTRU questions) Message-ID: <IIunqw.Fq8@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <42A8F4D6.7C54@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42C1AC35.3EAB@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:18:32 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C1AC35.3EAB@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >In <608CA538DBC4F0DF19F3E69D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> >Harald wrote... >| So far, no tickets have been opened on USEPRO. >...therefore I test this procedure now, what do we expect >from x2news gateways trying to inject articles with an >"unfoldable" subject or similar header field body line ? The current USEPRO text requires the gateway to produice a valid Netnews article, somehow or other. I would leave it to the gateway implementor to decide for himself how to do this. We do provide some pointers in cases which could lead to severe interoperability, looping, etc, but I do not think empty Subjects come into that category (indeed, they will probably propagate perfectly well, modulo a few sites which insist on removing trailing whitespace, followed by sites which actively test for the required SP after each colon). Does anyone know of a current mail2news gateway which actually goes to the trouble of testing for this particular case? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFcOx091916 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFcB1091915 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFaWo091891 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c928.83ba.42 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:36 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCHR20867 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21702 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <IIuMEn.FIq@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:49:34 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Except that the text you included says: > 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It > then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. >This is wrong for Xref slaving. The serving agent does not remove the >Xref header when Xref slaving is being used. Right! I see your problem now. How about: 7. It MUST (exept when specially configured to preserve the <article-locator>s set by the sending site) remove any Xref header (F-3.2.11) from each article. It then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. >>> I think the lack of an Xref header would be surprising to clients, so I >>> would lean towards SHOULD personally, but I haven't really thought >>> about it at any great length. >> Do you want us to say that is is a required part of the protocol that >> serving agents MUST/SHOULD construct an Xref header? >That would be my inclination, yeah. OK, then I think you should ask Alexey to raise a ticket if you want to pursue it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFbN1091899 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFb6L091898 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFauu091872 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c927.83ba.41 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:35 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCEq20849 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21699 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIuL0A.F8o@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> <IIr5uD.8pr@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280938.16108.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:19:22 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506280938.16108.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 12:59, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> It is clearly the reponsibility of anyone adopting an identity not based >> on DNS of IP addresses to choose something that is unique. Our drafts do >> not, cannot and should not specify how that is ensured. >Au contraire, requiring uniqueness but failing to indicate a suitable >method by which uniqueness can be assured is a "known technical omission" >(see BCP 9). The presently proposed text leaves it to the site owner to choose a unique name as best he can. If he screws up, then he screws up. I will take advice from Harald as to whether that needs to be documented as a "technical omission". All I can say is that the problem does not seem to be a serious one on the present Usenet. Moreover, I am still awaiting an answer to my question as to whether there is more than one site called "wolf" on Usenet, or whether that was just a duplicate in the old UUCP maps that merely caused problems with misdirection of email. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFa11091881 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFawj091880 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFZnr091865 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c923.83ba.40 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:31 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCFE20854 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21700 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIuL9z.FB5@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506281019.40094.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:25:11 GMT Lines: 31 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506281019.40094.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 14:53, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> since this WG has consistenly used the "header" >> terminology since the earliest days >Charles, please stop promulgating unsupported lies; text from ^^^^ ???? >our past drafts has been cited which uses standard terminology. >Moreover, it has been stated (with supporting evidence) that >such use was self-inconsistent. One example has been cited, from USEFOR-00, which was the initial attempt at the new format-only document, and had not been previously been reviewed by the WG. It was corrected in USEFOR-01. All our previous drafts had consistently used the "header", rather than the "header field", notation, as had Son-of-1036 before that. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFWWo091845 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFWl8091844 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFVZA091823 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c922.83ba.3f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:30 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCGb20861 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21701 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Message-ID: <IIuLqs.FE9@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280959.47701.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:35:16 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506280959.47701.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 15:39, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> On the contrary, I stand by every word that I said. It is highly >> improbable that any currenly existing <path-identity> will run into any >> problem when ":" ceases to be a path-delimiter. >That will happen when every instance of currently conforming news software >handling the Path field is replaced. No, it will officially "cease" to be a path-delimiter as soon as our standard is published. At that point of time, the probability of their existing any then current <path-identity> that will cause problems when ":" starts to appear (in IPv6 addresses, for example) is exceedingly small. So small, in fact, that Russ has said that it will not affect the soundness of his sleep. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFS6O091795 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFSo8091793 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFR4o091770 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c91e.83ba.3e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:26 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCD620839 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21697 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IIuJyv.F1w@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251222.46889.blilly@erols.com> <IIrCnE.Hw8@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280953.44435.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:56:55 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506280953.44435.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 15:26, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> They clearly say nothing about the semantics of <id-right>. >2822 clearly says "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address"; it >does not say "some random string" or anything like it. Nor does it say >that the semantics have changed from RFC 822. RFC 2822 invites you to "put" a "domain name (or a domain literal IP address)" when generating an <id-right>. That does not cause it not to be an <id-right> any more, nor does it confer any semantics upon that <id-right> that it did not already possess by virtue of its being an <id-right>. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFTOB091801 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TGFS1s091791 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TGFRkW091768 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-190.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.190]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c2c91d.83ba.3d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:15:25 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5TGCCR20831 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21696 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IIuJpo.EzF@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIrBIz.G55@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280949.01169.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:51:23 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506280949.01169.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 27 2005 15:01, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Simply changing the name of some syntax rule cannot possibly change the >> meaning of the document. >Ergo, by your own logic, "id-right" does not change the meaning of >the RHS of a msg-id from that of a domain name or literal. Nor >does it change the fact that domain names are case-insensitive. If you replace <id-right> by <domain> (which is already defined in RFC 2822), then obviously it makes a considerable difference. But replacing it, systematically, by <mumble-foo>, or anything else, will have no effect whatsoever. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TG3fGD078715 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TG3f74078714 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from madcow.cryp.to (madcow.cryp.to [193.123.234.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TG3eLU078680 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de) Received: from nemesis.pfm-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by madcow.cryp.to with ESMTP id j5TG3d4f008448 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:03:39 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:03:25 +0200 Message-Id: <200506291603.SAA09246@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> In-Reply-To: <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified > in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents "Netnews agent" isn't defined anywhere. Didn't we at some point agree that Usefor was about on-the-wire article _format_, not "agent" behavior? > MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in > Section 4 of [RFC2822], and MUST accept the "UTC" > timezone (see section 3.1.2) What "UTC" timezone? "UT" maybe? And didn't we just get rid of that one (for whatever reason)? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFxalw075725 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:59:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFxato075723 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:59:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from madcow.cryp.to (madcow.cryp.to [193.123.234.158]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFxYHQ075672 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de) Received: from nemesis.pfm-mainz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by madcow.cryp.to with ESMTP id j5TFxS4f008416 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:59:28 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:58:53 +0200 Message-Id: <200506291558.RAA09180@message-id.pfm-mainz.de> In-Reply-To: <13E565452DABA9148FACA323@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: rbabel@babylon.pfm-mainz.de (Ralph Babel) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1050: USEFOR 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Ticket #1050 created. Based on the following discussion, > I have put it into state "no change needed". NACK, Bruce has a point here: while "Xref" is optional, so is "Organization", but the former may well be removed completely upon transfer of an article to the next hop, while the latter may not. Therefore, something to the effect of "Xref MAY be removed from in-transit articles" needs to be added to section 3.2.11. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFrj7n068873 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFrj59068872 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFriZn068865 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Dneok-000I9Z-H0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:49:38 +0000 Message-ID: <ZPUF1uW8OswCFABa@highwayman.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:52:28 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <L$2$+rZn77PZkNKLQCe+d+wKx3> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com>, Forrest J. Cavalier III <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes >> I think Forest is talking about the $alz convention >> (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/cancel.html section IIB). I think >> you're note is still OK with this as you don't parse the message-id >> as much as add cancel. to what was already there. > >Sorry, I thought that there was more widespread understanding >among the WG that some packages have a "refuse cybercancels" setting that >causes a relay agent to not accept messages with IDs which start >"<cancel" Although I can imagine that there exists software that does practically anything -- I believe that the intent of the conventions is that the $alz scheme (which means that one is able to predict the cancel message ID) is to ensure that only one cancel floods out, no matter how many robots generate it (in the extended scheme with a secret, the cabal of cancellers share the secret amongst themselves -- same difference!) Servers that wish to ignore cancels (or wish to distinguish amongst the various parts) are clearly _intended_ to process the last few elements of the Path: header field data, looking for the "pseudosite" strings that they are prepared to accept (or not) [since they're not in the UUCP message maps they're some of the most used non-DNS based strings ... cyberspam, mmfcancel, bincancel, spewcancel and doubtless others I've forgotten] viz: since we're not producing a taxonomy of strange behaviour, I don't see a need to document the exciting things that people have dreamt up on their own to (not) process cancels ... >I thought, but could be mistaken, that there were some multi-part >naming schemes which used formatted message-IDs, but I am less >sure that anything acts on that. Since there are better ways of tying multiparts together, I don't think that leaving a hole for such a scheme is desirable or necessary - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQsLDvJoAxkTY1oPiEQLSOgCfUosi8uW1lDGeqyl/hJcVCj1dfTQAoIT1 gqjAkhPH/mLljtiitFY1t6WW =U4Yy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFqkhv067742 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFqkB1067741 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFqk9C067719 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5800A9D9FF for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TFqj918742; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291552.j5TFqj918742@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629092643.18036B-100000@spsystems.net> (message from Henry Spencer on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629092643.18036B-100000@spsystems.net> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> Conversely, if a message arrives with a Path: header that says >> Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!::FFFF:129.145.23.23!not-for-mail >> will the two occurences of "FFFF" in the Path: cause anything bad to happen? > > Not in the implementations I'm familiar with, and probably not in any > implementation. Almost certainly not. One April 1, admins from The Hierarchy That Shall Not Be Named all decided to add one bogus entry to their Path entries to force it to first in the propagation statistics. It typically showed up several times in every article, with no observable effects. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFhnHL057839 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFhnup057838 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFhmXg057811 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D29A13A84B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TFhlH27603; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291543.j5TFhlH27603@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> (message from Frank Ellermann on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:32:33 +0200) Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: >> Trying to revoke RFC 2822's prohibition against generating >> them is, to my mind, not something we should be doing in >> this WG. > > Just don't talk about it, combining MUST accept with MUST NOT > generate is odd, I prefer "SHOULD NOT generate" in such cases. I agree it's odd. I still think we should do it. "MUST accept" because there's a lot of software that generates it and will continue to, so failure on that point affects interoperability. "MUST NOT generate" because there's no reason to allow generation (there are better equivalents) and allowing more than FRC 2822 (it says "MUST NOT generate") is something we ought to do only with very good reason; oddness of wording isn't such a reason. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFGISY027852 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFGIbj027844 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFGGK2027830 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A84F13A782 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5TFFoQ21376; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506291515.j5TFFoQ21376@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <5D9A001F60EDE00291847ADE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (message from Harald Tveit Alvestrand on Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:35:55 +0200) Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <5D9A001F60EDE00291847ADE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: > I think the issue of all-numeric, mixed-case and "all" and "ctl" groups is > that many people *can't* choose to carry them - their implementations will > behave in unexpected ways if they try. > > So it makes sense to not require everyone to be able to handle them in > order to conform... It has _always_ been the case that the choice of which groups to carry is a local option, made on whatever basis (technical, financial, political, religious, . . .) the local admin decides. Even if the syntax _permits_ such an article, all that means is that the server shouldn't fall over when it sees it; it's allowed to drop it on the floor for any or no reason. So I don't see how any wording we put here _requires_ anybody to be able to handle anything (except in the sense of "don't fall over if you see it"--and I assure you, they WILL see it no matter what we write). Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFDkSU025167 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TFDkW3025157 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TFDiHk025133 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698C929936; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TFDf5b027534(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:13:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5TFDcwl027533(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:13:39 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:13:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <49C0B00F758B9D5686BE1E30@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <49C0B00F758B9D5686BE1E30@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506291113.34538.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 29 2005 07:56, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > I haven't seen an answer to this question - would anyone else like to > answer? [...] > --On 23. juni 2005 17:05 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > > > It would seem to be unwise to use it in IPV6 addresses as well, since > > ::FFFF:129.144.52.38 and ::FFFF:129.145.23.23 are clearly two different > > addresses but the same failure that would make the dead:beef admin an > > idiot would make both of these people idiots. (I.e., non-conforming > > servers would match the "path-identity" of FFFF for both systems and > > feeds would be disrupted.) > > If, in a message arriving at the old system "here", there is a Path: header > that says > > Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!not-for-mail > > and "here" does not know about any system named "FFFF", will any change in > handling happen? Change relative to what? Does "here" "know" about a system "named" "129.144.52.38? The root of the issue is that colon always has been and remains today a delimiter. > Conversely, if a message arrives with a Path: header that says > > Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!::FFFF:129.145.23.23!not-for-mail > > will the two occurences of "FFFF" in the Path: cause anything bad to happen? Not that I know of. Some statistics gathering scripts might interpret that as a loop of some sort. No problem for propagation. (assuming of course that the conditions for the previous question still apply) > Or is there some third circumstance that I haven't guessed at yet that will > cause something bad to happen? Yes, Path: there!FEDC:BA98:7654:3210:FEDC:BA98:7654:3210!foo (example IPv6 address literal from RFC 3513 section 2) Will cause the article not to be propagated to any sites "known" to "here" "named" "FEDC", "BA98", "7654", and/or "3210" (a less repetitive IPv6 example would of course provide more opportunity for damage). The RFC 3513 example and description of the problem has been previously described in http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jul/0192.html which was part of a discussion also referenced in recent discussion. An example of a highly problematic IPv6 literal incorporating observations made by Frank and Russ would be DEAD:BEEF:FEE:BEE:CAFE:ABBE:ED:BE. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TF97f6020110 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TF97qF020109 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TF96jO020086 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TF8jgE024889 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C2B97D.8030105@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:08:45 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> In-Reply-To: <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Graham Drabble wrote: > On 29 Jun 2005 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote > in news:58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no: > > >>--On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 08:33:34 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier >>III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >>> >>>> In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving >>>> a <msg-id> to change behaviour based on a theory about how >>>> the <msg-id> was generated. >>> >>> >>>What about "<cancel.", and other schemes (maybe multiparts.)? >>> >> >>Sorry, I don't understand. Is there software that tries to *parse* >>a message-ID? > > > I think Forest is talking about the $alz convention > (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/cancel.html section IIB). I think > you're note is still OK with this as you don't parse the message-id > as much as add cancel. to what was already there. > Sorry, I thought that there was more widespread understanding among the WG that some packages have a "refuse cybercancels" setting that causes a relay agent to not accept messages with IDs which start "<cancel" I thought, but could be mistaken, that there were some multi-part naming schemes which used formatted message-IDs, but I am less sure that anything acts on that. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TEdegB088953 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TEdeUP088950 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ID-77355.user.dfncis.de ([82.133.101.159]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5TEdbXP088893 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet05@drabble.me.uk) Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (192.168.254.2) with news-to-mail ; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:23:43 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text From: Graham Drabble <usenet05@drabble.me.uk> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:23:43 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns96849C9BFD42Agrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 29 Jun 2005 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote in news:58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no: > --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 08:33:34 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier > III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > >> >> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >>> In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving >>> a <msg-id> to change behaviour based on a theory about how >>> the <msg-id> was generated. >> >> >> What about "<cancel.", and other schemes (maybe multiparts.)? >> > > Sorry, I don't understand. Is there software that tries to *parse* > a message-ID? I think Forest is talking about the $alz convention (http://www.killfile.org/faqs/cancel.html section IIB). I think you're note is still OK with this as you don't parse the message-id as much as add cancel. to what was already there. -- Graham Drabble http://www.drabble.me.uk/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TEBJNZ052214 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TEBJY2052211 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TEBHVa052142 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5TEBFF1018515; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5TEBF9g018514; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:11:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text In-Reply-To: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629101019.18036C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > OK, here's the proposed text for the problems I outlined yesterday... Seems about right. > News is more dependent on msg-id uniqueness and fast comparision than Should be "comparison". Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDug78032131 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TDugrk032130 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDufuj032040 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dncuo-0001hn-AS for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:47:49 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:47:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:47:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:52:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 12 Message-ID: <42C2A7B7.3993@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > path-address = IPv4address / no-fold-literal ; see [RFC2373] s/2373/3986/ > recycling no-fold-literal, I've added [] around addresses... Doesn't change the dead:beef:cafe:: problems, [ and ] are also punctuation in 1036. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDgbYH015897 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TDgbhB015895 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDgX2m015816 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:42:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnchA-0006ur-R6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:33:40 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:33:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:33:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:34:01 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42C2A349.4FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Is there software that tries to *parse* a message-ID? It's a convention for spam cancel Message-IDs. In that case an intentional collision, one <cancel.old@id> is enough to cancel the <old@id> spam. In a more elaborated form it's <cancel.secret.old@id>, because the bad guys started to send a dummy <cancel.old@id> before the <old@id> spam, this dummy blocked the spam cancel. IIRC, bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDUf2U000191 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TDUfSA000190 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDUeSL000144 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5TDUcF1018087; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5TDUc2o018086; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <49C0B00F758B9D5686BE1E30@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629092643.18036B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > If, in a message arriving at the old system "here", there is... > Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!not-for-mail > and "here" does not know about any system named "FFFF", will any change in > handling happen? Nope. The Path header affects article propagation only to neighbors whose names are mentioned in it. If "FFFF" isn't known to be the name of a neighbor, no effect. > Conversely, if a message arrives with a Path: header that says > Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!::FFFF:129.145.23.23!not-for-mail > will the two occurences of "FFFF" in the Path: cause anything bad to happen? Not in the implementations I'm familiar with, and probably not in any implementation. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDQCBh093856 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TDQCAW093854 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:26:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TDQBrL093826 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5TDQ9F1018053; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5TDQ8iL018052; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) In-Reply-To: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050629092532.18036A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > If we explained it, would this be a reasonable text to insert in 3.1.6? Looks reasonable to me... Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TD1oGi062013 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TD1os0062012 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TD1nk6061972 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@demon.net) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DncCJ-0006Eu-35; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:01:47 +0000 Message-ID: <HqxSsbVqtpwCFAxW@highwayman.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:00:26 +0100 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) References: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <vf0$+rSH77v5mMKLame+duyAP$> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no>, Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes > Traditional usage has had two means of generating unique identifiers: > DNS names and asserted identities. The first gets its uniqueness from > the DNS; the second gets its uniqueness from tradition. New servers > should use DNS names. Not terribly important, but since the majority of the traditional names that occur in the "middle" of paths derive from UUCP (the ones at the ends are more of a mixture, but still mainly UUCP) could we change the second sentence to finish... ... "gets its uniqueness from tradition, mainly from when articles were carried over UUCP." which at least gives a clue (something to Google on) as why the tradition arose and why it is no longer sustainable. - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQsKbapoAxkTY1oPiEQL4wgCeNsSPuw91T5Rh5y3ggmEB8AJ4suYAoNZb 2mUPgsTe/iHtvQQUemyWlceV =x4pR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCgvLt036372 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCgvcQ036371 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCguSx036346 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C7A61B64; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:42:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03742-05; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5158761AF3; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:42:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:42:53 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <BCE6C9771E871479939D98C1@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42C2961F.1070801@mibsoftware.com> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C2961F.1070801@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> This chair has already marked ticket #1050 with "No change needed". Please stop beating the dead horse. --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 08:37:51 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > > >> Do you want us to say that is is a required part of the protocol that >> serving agents MUST/SHOULD construct an Xref header? I think we all agree >> that the Xref header is a bit of a kludge, though it is a very well >> established kludge. > > I am not sure we have basis for a MUST/SHOULD, but how is it a kludge > to be able to mark cross-posts as read? > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCevk6033619 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCev2Y033618 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCeuGG033606 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF69D61B64; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:40:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03723-04; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:40:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB30261AF3; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:40:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:40:52 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <58AF0F60ABC1BF58F84B3377@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 29, 2005 08:33:34 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving a >> <msg-id> to change behaviour based on a theory about how the >> <msg-id> was generated. > > > What about "<cancel.", and other schemes (maybe multiparts.)? > Sorry, I don't understand. Is there software that tries to *parse* a message-ID? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCcakT030495 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCcaha030494 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:38:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCcZxi030466 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dnbi7-0003hE-GU for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:30:35 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:30:35 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:30:35 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:42:08 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 25 Message-ID: <42C28910.926@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Groups starting with the component "junk" > Groups starting with the component "to" > Groups containing the component "all" > Groups containing the component "ctl" > The group "control" > The group "junk" > The group "to" How about adding... Groups starting with the component "control" ...for groups like control.cancel etc., and then combine the three single groups in one line: Groups containing the component "all" Groups containing the component "ctl" Groups starting with the component "control" Groups starting with the component "junk" Groups starting with the component "to" The groups "control", "junk", and "to" Anything else in this #1021 is fine from my POV, bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCbum3029617 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCbuJp029616 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCbsX1029577 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnbhW-0003d0-O5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:29:59 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:29:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:29:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:32:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 49 Message-ID: <42C294E1.146A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > The main change is deleting the ABNF (unneccesary) and doing > the import of unknown timezones in a NOTE rather than in > normative text. Okay. The first statement in the note is dubious, I'd prefer s/any/other/ resulting in: this specification does not change [RFC2822], which says that agents MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. You already said that GMT is deprecated and MUST be accepted. MUST NOT generate and MUST accept is a general 2822 obs-rule. MUST NOT generate and MAY accept is the usefor-0x obs-rule. If you change the latter to 2822-style for GMT it's better if you only say "deprecated", Besides "other zone names" can be read as "unknown zone names", then the next statement below your 'Note' is clearer: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD > treat such timezones as equivalent to "-0000" [...] We don't want "-0000" for GMT, after s/any/other/ the "+0000" for GMT is more obvious. About #1022, you proposed: | News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in | Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the | obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], and | MUST accept the "UTC" timezone (see section 3.1.2) and the | obs-phrase construct (see [RFC2822] section 4.1) but they | MUST NOT generate productions of such syntax. s/"UTC"/deprecated "GMT"/ and delete "but they MUST NOT" etc. > Trying to revoke RFC 2822's prohibition against generating > them is, to my mind, not something we should be doing in > this WG. Just don't talk about it, combining MUST accept with MUST NOT generate is odd, I prefer "SHOULD NOT generate" in such cases. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCbtUj029613 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCbtsO029611 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCbs9q029591 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TCbqgt017041 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C2961F.1070801@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:37:51 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.135 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Do you want us to say that is is a required part of the protocol that > serving agents MUST/SHOULD construct an Xref header? I think we all agree > that the Xref header is a bit of a kludge, though it is a very well > established kludge. I am not sure we have basis for a MUST/SHOULD, but how is it a kludge to be able to mark cross-posts as read? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCXibd024832 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCXhe2024831 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCXhpD024816 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TCXZgt015894 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C2951E.5060404@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:33:34 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text References: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving a <msg-id> > to change behaviour based on a theory about how the <msg-id> was > generated. What about "<cancel.", and other schemes (maybe multiparts.)? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCXbgB024752 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCXbRW024749 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCXZCV024642 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2669061B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:33:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03611-06 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:33:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E7061AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:33:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:33:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1047 Path-identity: A proposal (perhaps) Message-ID: <B1567455A8003F858BE0F033@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> At the moment, it seems that we're at an impasse partially caused by our documents' failure to explain what a "path-identity" is. I don't know if I understand it either.... At the moment, the specific format and use of path-identity is punted to USEPRO, where it seems to be still undefined. If we explained it, would this be a reasonable text to insert in 3.1.6? (I've modified the BNF too. Only modified stuff included here) -------------------------------------------------------------------- A path-identity identifies an agent. For the news system to work properly, the path-identity must be globally unique. Traditional usage has had two means of generating unique identifiers: DNS names and asserted identities. The first gets its uniqueness from the DNS; the second gets its uniqueness from tradition. New servers should use DNS names. In some cases, one wishes to embed something into a path-entity that is not a name. One common thing to embed is an IP address, serving as an identity when the name of the agent is not known. path-list = [FWS] *( ( path-identity / path-keyword / path-address ) [FWS] path-delimiter [FWS] ) tail-entry [FWS] path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" ) path-keyword = "POSTED" / "MISMATCH" path-address = IPv4address / no-fold-literal ; see [RFC2373] NOTE: The path-address contains characters that some systems consider path-delimiters. This can cause problems; path-address should therefore only be used when absolutely necessary. See [USEPRO] for details on when to use them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Note that in recycling no-fold-literal, I've added [] around addresses... and that a naked IPv4 address is allowed separately, because people have said this is already present (too much for us to remove). Does this make sense? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCTrk8020119 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCTrw4020118 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:29:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCTqQX020108 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TCTjgt014868 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C29439.8060806@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:29:45 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.135 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It > then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. > > This is wrong for Xref slaving. The serving agent does not remove the > Xref header when Xref slaving is being used. Well, is that a serving agent or a relay/transport agent? What if someone does a SUCK feed and Xref slaving. Does that make the server a relay agent? Does a SUCK feed count as a feed in USEPRO? As you know, I don't like all the artificial distinctions between serving/relay/injection agents. If anything is said, I think it should be a minor note under security in USEAGE. I don't think use of RFC2119 language is justified at all, because there is no interoperability at stake, and the amount and importance of additional information leaked across a feed in Xref is really, really small. Downstream sites can already determine how much delay you have internally, what feeds you get, who you get them from, how complete your spool is. So Xref only lets them discover approximately how old your installation is, modulo your filters, and what newsgroups you carry. Big deal. They can look in Whois and look at when you filed articles of incorporation to get a more accurate determination of when you established They can look in archives and see when articles with your site name in Path started appearing. And you can probably ask them what groups they have. They will tell you. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCIkQ2005945 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TCIkPg005944 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TCIjjk005925 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TCIbMB000795 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C2919D.70301@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:18:37 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> <IIt1Cv.or@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIt1Cv.or@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > > I pointed out that in the real world implementors and other readers DO > take shortcute when reading documents. That is a fact of life. You have to > live with it. No I do not have to live with it. As has been said so many times: we need a clear, complete, unambiguous specification that is as easy to read as possible, BUT WE HAVE NO CONCERN for people who refuse to read and understand NORMATIVE references. We can totally ignore such people when writing, because they are irrelevant. A specification is never read by unthinking sheep who have to be bullied into compliance. And frankly, if you write that way you insult the people who actually do read it. Until you understand this subtle point, this is going to keep coming up as long as you are editor. > > Therefore, people writing specifications should take care to look at what > they have written through the eyes of those likely to read them, and ensure > they are written in a manner sympathetic to those readers. Right. The disagreement and the chair's rule was in limiting the set of who "is likely to read them." Now we know that EVERY READER will be expected to understand RFC2822, and we are sympathetic to them. NO ONE will not have read RFC2822, so we do not have to be sympathetic to people who are from "news only and do not expect the RFC2822 terminology. Accomodating people who will not read the document is unecessary and of no concern. Doing so cannot justify any wording or text of the drafts. > > We are not trying to write a specification which is a challenge for > everyone who comes to read it, so that we can say, with great glee when > they misinterpret what we have written, "you are a moron because of your > inability to decipher what (with superhuman attention to every detail) was > plainly stated in the document. > Excluded Middle, hostile, and insulting. Can't you please make a dignified argument instead? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TC4l4H088404 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TC4lST088400 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TC4kPp088271 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TC4Zgt010237 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C28E53.4050501@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:04:35 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed References: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and > SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be > used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this > naming scheme. [snip] > > The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in > various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used > for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific > purpose, or by local agreement. > > Groups starting with the component "junk" > Groups starting with the component "to" > Groups containing the component "all" > Groups containing the component "ctl" > The group "control" > The group "junk" > The group "to" > > NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a > protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. I don't think that permission belongs in a NOTE. The permission to use alt.2600 is not in a note in the first paragraph. Why did you use different phrasing and place it in a note? Can you change the "MUST therefore not" to "therefore MUST NOT", or better yet put the explanation in a NOTE, like you did for digits part. I think there is a big improvement with more consistency in grouping and splitting explanation and specification into body text and NOTE, and putting the MUSTs ahead of the SHOULDs. Can I suggest the following arrangement of text... The syntax of newsgroup names and components (specified in section []) are limited as follows. The group "poster" and groups starting with the component "example" are reserved, and MUST NOT be used for the name of a newsgroup. Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for future IETF specifications and otherwise MUST NOT be used by posting agents. Such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. Components beginning with "+" and "-" are reserved for private use and MUST NOT be used without a private prior agreement. Such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. Unless referring to pre-existing groups or for their specific pre-established purpose in implementation and protocols, names SHOULD NOT be "control", SHOULD NOT contain any component "all" or "ctl", and SHOULD NOT consist or start with the component "junk" or "to". Unless referring to pre-existing groups, a newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. NOTE: All-digit components conflict with one widely used storage scheme for articles. Mixed case components cause confusion because some systems distinguish case while others ignore it. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBuAYL078897 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBuAah078896 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBu8w7078852 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5287461B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:56:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03081-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5795461AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:56:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? (fwd) Message-ID: <49C0B00F758B9D5686BE1E30@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I haven't seen an answer to this question - would anyone else like to answer? Harald ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: fredag, juni 24, 2005 09:04:27 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Cc: Subject: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? Attempting to return to the problem at hand, rather than the discussion on how to discuss these things - John, can you educate me a little bit about USENET feeds? --On 23. juni 2005 17:05 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > It would seem to be unwise to use it in IPV6 addresses as well, since > ::FFFF:129.144.52.38 and ::FFFF:129.145.23.23 are clearly two different > addresses but the same failure that would make the dead:beef admin an > idiot would make both of these people idiots. (I.e., non-conforming > servers would match the "path-identity" of FFFF for both systems and > feeds would be disrupted.) If, in a message arriving at the old system "here", there is a Path: header that says Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!not-for-mail and "here" does not know about any system named "FFFF", will any change in handling happen? Conversely, if a message arrives with a Path: header that says Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!::FFFF:129.145.23.23!not-for-mail will the two occurences of "FFFF" in the Path: cause anything bad to happen? Or is there some third circumstance that I haven't guessed at yet that will cause something bad to happen? I'd like to understand what you mean when you say "feeds will be disrupted"..... Harald ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBlMJ5067854 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBlMYf067853 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBlLlk067840 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF5C61B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:47:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02895-09 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:47:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1FF61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:47:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:47:13 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 term "header": Resolved Message-ID: <476EABF987D41AEFF0FAD826@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> With a few refinements based on the discussion, this item is now closed. ROUGH consensus. OLD: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. NEW: NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows the terminology of RFC 2822 in using the term "header field", based on a belief that consistent terminology among specifications that depend on each other makes the specifications easier to use in the long run. Also add one more definition to this section: This specification also uses the following terms: Header line - a line as defined in [RFC2822] section 2.1 that forms part of a header field. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBcqBn058208 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBcqv3058207 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:38:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBcpOU058196 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:38:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60F361B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:38:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02895-02 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:38:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4859B61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:38:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:38:47 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1042 USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups folding - resolution proposal Message-ID: <3C401D02F140FAB69424300E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Suggested addition to section 3.1.5: Folding the Newsgroups: header field over several header lines has been shown to harm propagation significantly. Folded Newsgroups header fields SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. The only valid reason identified at this time for generating folded Newsgroups header fields is to test propagation of articles using that feature. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBR7vF044491 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBR7TW044490 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBR67U044468 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-250-167-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.250.167]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5TBQmMB020450 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C28579.5030107@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:26:49 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Chair hat ON: Free-standing documents (Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> <B01B60966947165B92FAEA51@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IIt4np.5w9@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIt4np.5w9@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <B01B60966947165B92FAEA51@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > > >>As I've remarked in another thread: Sometimes you need to state the obvious. > > > But many more times you also need to state the "not so obvious". > > Which was my whole point. > No. You crossed the line by saying implementors could not be expected to read and refer to a normative draft, despite section 3 refering to RFC2822 so many times. There will still be occasions to highlight and repeat text from normative references. But now there is no merit to any argument that the draft can be written as if people can read USEFOR-USEFOR-04 and not understand RFC2822. Are there any other substantative arguments against matching RFC2822 terminology? How long it takes to edit has been debunked. How long text has been in the draft predating MESSFOR is irrelevant now that they finished first. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBOXAN041377 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBOXAb041376 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:24:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBOWZS041340 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EF561B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:24:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02707-03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:24:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2903B61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:24:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:24:24 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? (fwd) Message-ID: <1450064CFAF3D5B3835ECD7A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> If nobody wants to say anything about this, I'm going to close it with a "no change needed". I can't accept a change based on a single voice and no raised objection. Harald ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: onsdag, juni 08, 2005 13:32:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Cc: Subject: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? New ticket: At the moment, section 3.2.2 of usefor-04 says: o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. --On 3. juni 2005 01:45 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > BTW, CFWS in References is a silly unnecessary complication. (CFWS in > any structured header > is a bad idea,IMNSHO. - I implement article processing software.) > > usepro Transitional Arrangements even admits comments in References will > break existing software. > > So, why are comments going to be allowed in the References header? > > Is the idea to make References irrelevant and unreliable, and then we > don't > care that it cannot be parsed by legacy software? While we cannot change RFC 2822, it may be logical to change SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBLhno037820 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:21:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TBLhHp037818 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TBLgGW037798 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4C261B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:21:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02707-02 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0311161AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:21:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:21:38 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: Resolved, I think. Message-ID: <4FBFA9AC31A8F0BC01D811B4@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Based on comments to Ken Murchison's text, I currently have the following as resolution: The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which use the "GMT" zone. NOTE: this specification does not change [RFC2822], which says that agents MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include any zone names defined by <obs-zone>. Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such timezones as equivalent to "-0000" when comparing dates, as specified in [RFC2822] section 4.3. The main change is deleting the ABNF (unneccesary) and doing the import of unknown timezones in a NOTE rather than in normative text. (Since we're quoting requirements from 2822, I think it makes sense to put the uppercase MUST and SHOULD in a NOTE - usually, it doesn't). Makes sense? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TB9UsB024030 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TB9UrI024026 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TB9SWt023954 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE59161B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02570-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C8261AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:09:23 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Resolution proposal Message-ID: <8960EFCE6BCE76DDD1A1F38C@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I suggest the following text change to section 2.1 of USEFOR: OLD: News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate productions of such syntax. NEW: News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], and MUST accept the "UTC" timezone (see section 3.1.2) and the obs-phrase construct (see [RFC2822] section 4.1) but they MUST NOT generate productions of such syntax. Reason: Of the people who have spoken up, Bruce argues strongly for as much alignment with RFC 2822 as possible, and Charles argues for including the dot. Russ argues that a realistic parser has to parse much more weird junk than this construct, so it doesn't make much of a difference - but I can't see a strong argument for keeping this one outside the "MUST accept" set. Trying to revoke RFC 2822's prohibition against generating them is, to my mind, not something we should be doing in this WG. Makes sense? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TAbtLE090515 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TAbtXE090514 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TAbrwJ090498 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6025961B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00512-09 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1FA61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:37:49 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1021 USEFOR Newsgroups header - resolution proposed Message-ID: <9F53E73ABFCE366D67234D32@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> OK, here's my "proposed text" again, incorporating feedback. ---- restricting syntax; there are no changes to the ABNF ----- A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this naming scheme. NOTE: All-digit components conflict with one widely used storage scheme for articles. Mixed case groups cause confusion between systems with case sensitive matching and systems with case insensiteve matching of newsgroup names. ----- restricting use of specific characters ------------ Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. Components beginning with "+" and "-" are reserved for private use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. However, such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. ---- restricting component names ---- The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used as the name of a newsgroup: Groups starting with the component "example" The group "poster" The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific purpose, or by local agreement. Groups starting with the component "junk" Groups starting with the component "to" Groups containing the component "all" Groups containing the component "ctl" The group "control" The group "junk" The group "to" NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TAa2c4088646 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5TAa23S088645 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:36:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5TAa0ka088620 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B629561B64; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:35:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00512-08; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD9961AF3; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:35:55 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <5D9A001F60EDE00291847ADE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On mandag, juni 27, 2005 20:56:16 +0100 Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> wrote: > On 23 Jun 2005 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in > news:IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk: > >> But, "general" apart, I think current practice on Usenet is that >> single-component groups are not supposed to be there, and my >> wording was intended to reflect that. But, as I said, my wording >> is up for debate. > > The more I think about this the less I'm convinced that we need to say > anything as part of the standard (we might want to look at this again > come USEAGE). Single component groups and groups with all numeric > components can only harm servers that choose to carry them, if they > simply turn up in a transited article or in a control message which is > not actioned they aren't a problem. I think the issue of all-numeric, mixed-case and "all" and "ctl" groups is that many people *can't* choose to carry them - their implementations will behave in unexpected ways if they try. So it makes sense to not require everyone to be able to handle them in order to conform... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T9imhG039031 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T9imOG039030 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T9ilh8039003 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1A061B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:44:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32427-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE2761AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:44:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - closing X-headers Message-ID: <B4EEDA6E702E6104749F7FB8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I found no consensus supporting either reverting to the "deprecated" text (Charles' suggestion) or removing X-Mailer from the list (Alexey). So I'm moving this ticket to "Text accepted". Reposting the proposal: OLD (3.2.13): NOTE: This header supersedes the role performed redundantly by experimental headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and other headers previously used on Usenet and in Email for this purpose. Use of these experimental headers SHOULD be discontinued in favor of the single, standard User-Agent header. NEW: NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to send these non-standard headers. OLD (3.2.14): This header is intended to replace various currently-used but undocumented headers such as "NNTP-Posting-Host", "X-Trace" and "X-Complaints-To". These headers are thus deprecated. NEW: NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in non-standardized headers such as NNTP-Posting-Host, X-trace, X-Complaints-To, and others. Once an injecting agent uses Injection-Info, it should have no need to send these non-standard headers. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T9aYwv031187 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:36:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T9aYWj031181 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T9aWcE031130 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434F061B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32427-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF7761AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:36:26 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 Message-ID: Proposed text Message-ID: <3550451BBA021FCEB6BFEB9A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> OK, here's the proposed text for the problems I outlined yesterday: OLD (start of section): The Message-ID header contains a single unique message identifier. This document updates the <msg-id> construct from Section 3.6.4 of [RFC2822] so as to ensure that Internet Message Format Message-IDs are usable in widely deployed news software. The global uniqueness requirement for <msg-id> in [RFC2822] is to be understood as applying across all protocols using such message identifiers, and across both Email and Netnews in particular. A revised syntax for <msg-id> is given below, but the requirements and descriptive text from Section 3.6.4 of [RFC2822] still apply. NEW: The Message-ID header contains a single unique message identifier. News is more dependent on msg-id uniqueness and fast comparision than email is, and some news software would have trouble with the full range of possible msg-ids permitted by RFC 2822; this section therefore restricts the syntax of <msg-id> compared to Section 3.6.4 of [RFC2822]. The global uniqueness requirement for <msg-id> in [RFC2822] is to be understood as applying across all protocols using such message identifiers, and across both Email and Netnews in particular. OLD (ABNF): no-fold-quote = DQUOTE ( "." mqtext / *mqtext "." / *mqtext mqspecial *mqtext ) DQUOTE NEW: no-fold-quote = DQUOTE ( "." *mqtext / *mqtext "." / *mqtext mqspecial *mqtext ) DQUOTE OLD (end of section): NOTE: It is RECOMMENDED in [RFC2822] that, for ensuring global uniqueness, the <id-right> be some domain identifier within whose scope the uniqueness of the <id-left> can be guaranteed. When following this recommendation, any <dot-atom-text> or <no-fold- literal> used for the <id-right> are to be interpreted as <domain>s as described in Section 3.4.1 of [RFC2822]. NEW: Some software will try to match the <id-right> of a msg-id in a case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case sensitive fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate two message-IDs where the only difference is the case of characters in the <id-right> part. If domain literals are used, the syntax found in [RFC2821] section 4.1.3 is RECOMMENDED. NOTE: [RFC2822] section 3.6.4 recommends that the <id-right> should be a domain name or a domain literal. Domain literals are troublesome since many IP addresses are not globally unique; domain names are more likely to generate unique message-IDs. In no circumstance is it reasonable for software receiving a <msg-id> to change behaviour based on a theory about how the <msg-id> was generated. I think this makes it clear that in message-id, the question of "what" the RHS is matters only to the generator, not to the parsing entity; all we care about after generation is that the message-ids are unique. (the 2821 reference was added when I discovered that in 2822, this was punted to "the transport" - this makes sense for addressing, but not for message-IDs, where uniqueness is the thing that matters) Makes sense? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T8X0BG077543 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T8X0Ho077542 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T8Wwmd077477 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA93D61B69; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31724-04; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A281961AF3; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:12:57 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: draft language (Was Re: Feedback on proposal) Message-ID: <F440E36CEBA3C10CDF75FEAB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Standard practice is to write the document the way you want the result to end up. That includes words like "this standard" (although, in many cases, "this document" is better for multiple reasons - for instance, because a standard may consist of more than one document). I think it's also good practice to have a "Status of this memo (to be deleted by the RFC Editor)" section that explains that this is a draft that is intended for the standards track, and is currently a work item of the USEFOR WG, and that comments should be directed there. State the obvious... --On 27. juni 2005 15:06 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > On Mon June 27 2005 13:12, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> >> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> > "conformance with our" specification (it's not a standard). >> >> We're going for "proposed standard", not "informational" or >> "experimental". Maybe BCP for USEAGE. Modulo "with the iESG >> you never know". > > "Not all RFCs are standards". More important "The Internet-Draft should > neither state nor imply that it has any standards status; to do so > conflicts with the role of the RFC Editor and the IESG." (1id-guidelines). > I think I mentioned this before; the draft(s) need to be checked > carefully by the Editors (this should already have been done in > accordance with the guidelines...). > > Specifically, the draft contains about a dozen instances of "this > standard" (one says "this present standard"), there's a reference to > "other standards" (implying that the draft is a standard), a reference to > "standard User-Agent", etc. The only occurrence that shouldn't be > changed is the one in the IPR boilerplate. > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T8X0lY077545 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T8X0vr077544 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T8Wwf9077499 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249EC61AF3; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31666-08; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DC461B64; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:22:23 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1021 Single component newsgroups (Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <AEF08FC6BEDD4E5AABF1F47A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 27. juni 2005 20:56 +0100 Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> wrote: > n 23 Jun 2005 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in > news:IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk: > >> But, "general" apart, I think current practice on Usenet is that >> single-component groups are not supposed to be there, and my >> wording was intended to reflect that. But, as I said, my wording >> is up for debate. > > The more I think about this the less I'm convinced that we need to say > anything as part of the standard (we might want to look at this again > come USEAGE). Single component groups and groups with all numeric > components can only harm servers that choose to carry them, if they > simply turn up in a transited article or in a control message which is > not actioned they aren't a problem. It can therefore be left up to each > administrator to decide based on local policy whether to add these > groups. I think that's the consensus of the group at the moment: It's not sensible for the article *format* standard to say anything about single component newsgroup names. They should be permitted in syntax. We'll return to the topic with USEAGE (if we get that far). Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T40Nlt043858 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T40NRE043857 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:00:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T40Knc043828 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnTdC-0002Xn-MF for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:52:58 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:52:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:52:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:59:15 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 34 Message-ID: <42C21C93.594C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> <9ZbmC$wHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42C0569D.78F5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIt10u.9D@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >>> I'm for id-right. >> And that doesn't reflect the fundamental concept <host-name>. > I think that is exactly why Kai said he was "for id-right" :-) Possible, then I missed this "option" / "idea" (?) in RfC 724. Where is it ? >> <id-right> could be "maybe take some random number + hash + >> timestamp, don't forget to add an '@' somewhere in the middle" > Yes, that is a perfectly reasonable implementation if you use > a good random number generator and make it long enough that > the clashes are unlikely to occur before the heat death of > the universe. Clashes should be restricted to your own <id-domain>. We have already seen one case of <number@number> where nobody knew how it was generated. Elsewhere I saw <number@oemcomputer>. That is certified madness. Doing this in mail might work, but the poor user is an IETF WG Chair, he sends mails to mailing lists, and for lists it's essentially the same problem as in news. > It does conflict with a RECOMMENDATION in RFC 2822, but that > is no absolute bar. <id-domain> instead of <id-right> is also no absolute bar, but at least the semantics is then obvious. Even for implementors. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T3TlO4027294 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T3TlV7027293 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T3Tjpb027286 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnT9T-0006SW-1n for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:22:15 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:22:15 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:22:15 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1048 Injection-Date syntax Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:24:13 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 57 Message-ID: <42C2145D.49C1@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IIrA5q.Eup@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0B90E.5F95@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIt3IB.46F@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Add me, but without s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ please, >> GMT is neither critical nor harmful. > But our requirements would then no longer be a subset > of RFC 2822's requirements. Yes, that's exactly the idea of explicity mentioning GMT with a SHOULD NOT, because Russ found it in way too many articles for a decree to forbid it. > As Bruce has pointed out, we should not be permitting > things that RFC 2822 forbids. First Bruce proposed his new concept of a "SHOULD" as a "mere recommendation", now you add a "SHOULD NOT" as a "permission". Why don't you take 2119 as it is ? | SHOULD NOT | This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there | may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the | particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the | full implications should be understood and the case carefully | weighed before implementing any behavior described with this | label. "Valid resons in particular circumstances" include "old UA was implemented before some mad IETFers invented new fancy rules" | MUST NOT | This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the | definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification. ...................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ MUST NOT means crashes, law suits, net abuse, harm, shoot on sight, verboten. [2119 keywords] | they MUST only be used where it is actually required for | interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for | causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions) For example, | they must not be used to try to impose a particular method | on implementors where the method is not required for | interoperability. GMT _cannot_ cause harm, and that's the point of explicitly mentioning it as a SHOULD NOT. With the same MUST NOT as in 2822 that point would be moot. > sites that still generate GMT will be non-compliant, and it > will take a while for the usage to fade away. There are a > lot of things in our drafts that are like that. All these things, if they are very much like GMT, have to be checked, MUST and MUST NOT aren't suited for wishful thinking, they are about real trouble and harmful misbehaviour. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2kUdS005747 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2kUoS005746 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2kSRC005697 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5T2kRJJ029851 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:27 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DD64E7CB0; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:27 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:22:17 GMT") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:46:27 -0700 Message-ID: <878y0tx4l8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> Please allow for Xref slaving. (I don't know if the context takes care >> of that.) > I think it is OK. If you have a farm of serving agents that keep their > Xrefs in step, do you regard passing articles between those agents as > "relaying" Yes. > IOW, is that whole farm just "one big serving agent" from the POV of our > draft? No. There are reasons why you might want to Xref slave to a news feed that isn't at your site or even run by you. They're rare, but there's no particular reason to disallow it. (Consider, for example, the case where you run a personal local news server as basically a cache for your ISP's remote news server and want to be able to switch between servers whenever you feel like it without renumbering.) > If the answer is "relaying", then the present "relayers MAY delete" > suffices. Except that the text you included says: 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. This is wrong for Xref slaving. The serving agent does not remove the Xref header when Xref slaving is being used. >> I think the lack of an Xref header would be surprising to clients, so I >> would lean towards SHOULD personally, but I haven't really thought >> about it at any great length. > Do you want us to say that is is a required part of the protocol that > serving agents MUST/SHOULD construct an Xref header? That would be my inclination, yeah. > I think we all agree that the Xref header is a bit of a kludge, though > it is a very well established kludge. Eh. I could argue that both ways. It's a kludge from a particularly purist standpoint of data separation, but it's not clear to me that that degree of purity is actually useful or desireable in practice. On the gripping hand, it's definitely a layering violation. Anyway, whatever we might think of it, it's not going anywhere. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2ElJc089671 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2Elea089670 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EkkT089648 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20415.3e46.f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CBL13408 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21676 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIt1Cv.or@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:17:19 GMT Lines: 56 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >> >> >>>2822 is a NORMATIVE reference. We refer to and require people to >>>use it. The ENTIRE audience will need to refer and understand >>>RFC2822. >> >> >> But I suspect that the entire audience is not going to refer to RFC 2822 >> (because they will just use what they "remember from last time they read >> it"). And I doubt they will fully understand it, much less the >> ramifications of all the other MIME etc documents that we refer to >> normatively. >> >> That is a sad fact of life. If you write a document that is not free >> standing, and/or does not contain sufficient explanatory material to >> assist the "less than omniscient reader", then people are going to cut >> corners when they come to read it. >This is a preposterous position for a WG participant, and absolutely >unacceptable position for a WG editor. >Can I ask the chairs to issue clear statements that we are NOT >writing "free-standing" documents, and that it will be impossible to >create a conforming implementation without reading RFC2822? In evidence >that this must be so, I offer the wording in Section 3 of USEFOR-USEFOR-04. Eh? WHen did I say that we should be writing a "free standing" document? I pointed out that in the real world implementors and other readers DO take shortcute when reading documents. That is a fact of life. You have to live with it. Therefore, people writing specifications should take care to look at what they have written through the eyes of those likely to read them, and ensure they are written in a manner sympathetic to those readers. We are not trying to write a specification which is a challenge for everyone who comes to read it, so that we can say, with great glee when they misinterpret what we have written, "you are a moron because of your inability to decipher what (with superhuman attention to every detail) was plainly stated in the document. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EkFm089663 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2Ekl0089662 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EjfE089619 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20414.3e46.e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:44 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CFQ13430 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21680 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <IIt4Jx.5u0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:26:21 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> writes: >On 23 Jun 2005 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in >news:IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk: >> But, "general" apart, I think current practice on Usenet is that >> single-component groups are not supposed to be there, and my >> wording was intended to reflect that. But, as I said, my wording >> is up for debate. >The more I think about this the less I'm convinced that we need to say >anything as part of the standard (we might want to look at this again >come USEAGE). Single component groups and groups with all numeric >components can only harm servers that choose to carry them, if they >simply turn up in a transited article or in a control message which is >not actioned they aren't a problem. It can therefore be left up to each >administrator to decide based on local policy whether to add these >groups. What I said, in my suggested text, was that single-component groups, and a few other things, SHOULD NOT be found on the global Usenet, though other networks could do as they please "by mutual arrangement". But I also said that "SHOULD" was perhaps too strong, and invited discussion. I still think that we should say _something_, though saying it all in USEAGE is certainly one possibility. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EjYZ089641 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2Ejjf089628 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EiUO089606 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20413.3e46.d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:43 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CEF13422 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21679 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <IIt4D6.5Fx@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:22:17 GMT Lines: 49 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> Under Duties of a Serving Agent: >> 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It >> then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. >Please allow for Xref slaving. (I don't know if the context takes care of >that.) I think it is OK. If you have a farm of serving agents that keep their Xrefs in step, do you regard passing articles between those agents as "relaying" or as some "private protocol" for their mutual cponvenience? IOW, is that whole farm just "one big serving agent" from the POV of our draft? If the answer is "relaying", then the present "relayers MAY delete" suffices. If it is "one big serving agent", then the question does not arise. So I think the present USEPRO wording is OK. If you want some explanatory wording, or a NOTE, then it could be done, but I don't think it is necessary. >> I see little merit in upgrading that MAY to a SHOULD (no >> interoperability issue or harm arises). It is a good practice, and to be >> commended as such, which is why that MAY is there. >I think the lack of an Xref header would be surprising to clients, so I >would lean towards SHOULD personally, but I haven't really thought about >it at any great length. Do you want us to say that is is a required part of the protocol that serving agents MUST/SHOULD construct an Xref header? I think we all agree that the Xref header is a bit of a kludge, though it is a very well established kludge. Changing the wording would make it harder to introduce innovative solutions as to how a server communicates with its clients. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EiO0089617 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2EiBf089616 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EhsX089585 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20412.3e46.c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:42 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CDw13418 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21678 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: draft language (Was Re: Feedback on proposal) Message-ID: <IIt3q3.4LB@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:08:27 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >"Not all RFCs are standards". More important "The Internet-Draft should >neither state nor imply that it has any standards status; to do so >conflicts with the role of the RFC Editor and the IESG." (1id-guidelines). >I think I mentioned this before; the draft(s) need to be checked >carefully by the Editors (this should already have been done in >accordance with the guidelines...). >Specifically, the draft contains about a dozen instances of "this standard" >(one says "this present standard"), there's a reference to "other standards" >(implying that the draft is a standard), a reference to "standard >User-Agent", etc. The only occurrence that shouldn't be changed is the >one in the IPR boilerplate. May I point out that the MESSFOR drafts that preceded RFC 2822 also used the words "this standard" in the same manner. Also that out earlier arictle-* drafts contained the words: [The use of the words "this standard" within this document when referring to itself does not imply that this draft yet has pretensions to be a standard, but rather indicates what will become the case if and when it is accepted as an RFC with the status of a proposed or draft standard.] Those words are still in USEPRO, and ought to be in USEFOR as well, for the removal of all doubt. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EgoW089581 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2EgpT089580 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2Efei089557 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20410.3e46.9 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CGw13436 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21681 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Chair hat ON: Free-standing documents (Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution) Message-ID: <IIt4np.5w9@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> <B01B60966947165B92FAEA51@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:28:36 GMT Lines: 18 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <B01B60966947165B92FAEA51@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >As I've remarked in another thread: Sometimes you need to state the obvious. But many more times you also need to state the "not so obvious". Which was my whole point. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EhxX089592 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2EhS6089591 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2Eg2O089568 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20411.3e46.b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:41 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CAa13400 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:10 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21675 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIt10u.9D@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> <9ZbmC$wHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42C0569D.78F5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:10:06 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C0569D.78F5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Kai Henningsen wrote: >> I'm for id-right. >And that doesn't reflect the fundamental concept <host-name>. I think that is exactly why Kai said he was "for id-right" :-). ><id-right> could be "maybe take some random number + hash + >timestamp, don't forget to add an '@' somewhere in the middle". Yes, that is a perfectly reasonable implementation if you use a good random number generator and make it long enough that the clashes are unlikely to occur before the heat death of the universe. It does conflict with a RECOMMENDATION in RFC 2822, but that is no absolute bar. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EgP1089582 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5T2EgUF089579 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5T2EfB7089559 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-11.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.11]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c20410.3e46.a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:14:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5T2CC913414 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21677 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1048 Injection-Date syntax Message-ID: <IIt3IB.46F@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IIrA5q.Eup@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0B90E.5F95@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:03:47 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42C0B90E.5F95@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> I still prefer GMT on its own >Add me, but without s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ please, >GMT is neither critical nor harmful. But our requirements would then no longer be a subset of RFC 2822's requirements. As Bruce has pointed out, we should not be permitting things that RFC 2822 forbids. Yes, sites that still generate GMT will be non-compliant, and it will take a while for the usage to fade away. There are a lot of things in our drafts that are like that. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SKXlin090861 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SKXlgB090860 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SKXkr3090830 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271BB61B4C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:33:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16185-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:33:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEDD61B5C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:33:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:33:23 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Decision procedures (Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution) Message-ID: <119CB22DD798D0073C9ACE7A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 28. juni 2005 09:45 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > On Mon June 27 2005 14:53, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> if head counting is required. > > May I remind the co-chairs that there is still the unresolved > question as to the method that is to be used to determine > consensus; is it in fact a head count (in which case those of us > who have been using reasoned arguments can adopt the simpler > method of making a non-sequitur comment), or is it to be based > on reasoned arguments as was the case in the Resnick-Gierth era, > or something else? RFC 2418 section 3.3: The other case is where the discussion has been held entirely over the mailing list. The determination of the level of consensus may be harder to do in this case since most people subscribed to mailing lists do not actively participate in discussions on the list. It is left to the discretion of the working group chair how to evaluate the level of consensus. Alexey and I decide. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SKHE4B073304 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SKHEaq073303 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SKHCfw073288 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnMOA-0000Cq-Og for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:08:58 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:08:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:08:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:10:35 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 18 Message-ID: <42C1AEBB.4E7F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <12403.9609371268$1119985678@news.gmane.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: > P.S.: Just for fun I test it with this article. Here's what I got back from GMaNe: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format:29206:raw Message-ID: <12403.9609371268$1119985678@news.gmane.org> And that's what I posted (truncated header): Message-ID: <"\=1B[7;0m"@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:02 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NetNews one Bruce nil. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SK2v47058552 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SK2vlC058551 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SK2sKJ058500 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnMAC-00069n-Hq for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:32 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:32 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: NEW USEPRO 7.9 gateway (was: LTRU questions) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:59:49 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 24 Message-ID: <42C1AC35.3EAB@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <42A8F4D6.7C54@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <608CA538DBC4F0DF19F3E69D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald wrote... | So far, no tickets have been opened on USEPRO. ...therefore I test this procedure now, what do we expect from x2news gateways trying to inject articles with an "unfoldable" subject or similar header field body line ? > should we just offer a way to force compatibility with > our rules by adding a "dummy" word in the 1st line of > the Subject ? Read "1st line of a folded subject header field body" if that's your preferred style. > Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=EF=BF=BE?= That's a dummy BOM if I got it right. Ugly like hell but better than silently rejecting "unfoldable" articles. It could be also (ab)used to enforce a non-empty subject. > what should the poor mail2news gateway do ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SJD3Oi012206 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SJD3sk012202 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SJD1Uc012162 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:13:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnLMH-0006Ow-PL for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:02:58 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:02:57 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:02:57 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:02 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 10 Message-ID: <"\[7;0m"@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Is this a fair statement of the issues being discussed? Yes. Minor nit, "there exist valid 2822 message-iDs that are not valid News message-ids" - that's AFAIK in theory, in practice I've never seen such Message-IDs. Bye, Frank P.S.: Just for fun I test it with this article. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SImmoU091751 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SImmUo091750 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:48:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SImkXD091732 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DnL1T-0001aY-BU for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:41:32 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.31 ([62.80.58.31]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:41:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.31 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:41:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:47:01 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42C19B25.50FF@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506280945.15285.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.31 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > May I remind the co-chairs that there is still the unresolved > question as to the method that is to be used to determine > consensus; is it in fact a head count It's a "judgement call". You have repeatedly posted articles explaining why one sound argument can be more important than several "heads". Now what's new about this, are you testing Scott's "trouble" filter ? Then you have to write "voting" ;-) Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SGcU2Y058136 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SGcUg1058135 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SGcStM057989 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5SGcLGS083931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506280922400.27196@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Add "even if it confuses the rest of the world, and leads them to complain >you are stuck in your ivory tower and would rather you had a document that >was pedantically correct rather than one of use to the people working at >the coal face". Your argument is filled with so many silly assumptions, unsupported assertions and insulting implications that it is hard to determine where to start debunking it. What will confuse the "rest of the world" is telling them to read RFC2822 and then use terms that are different than RFC2822. It is not an "ivory tower" to be consistent with the rest of the world. Using the correct terminology will not make our standard any less usefull to anyone. People who implement news software are not "at the coal face". and they are not idiots who won't be able to understand the terms used in RFC2822. And it still won't take an hour using any reasonable editing tool to make the changes. >And I suspect that "in the long run" the terminology that the marketplace >uses will eventually prevail, even for email. I have no idea what you mean by "prevail" or by "the marketplace". These are meaningless terms. The slang that people use in everyday speech is outside the scope of our discussion, and the people who write the next standard are free to use whatever terminology they feel appropriate, assuming they have some justification for changes from the existing standards, which we do not. >You could also argue that, since this WG has consistenly used the "header" >terminology since the earliest days, that it should require an actual >consensus to make the change before reversing that decision. I find it amusing that you make this argument given the large number of changes you've made to the drafts based on nothing more than your own feelings about it. If "since the earliest days" is now insufficient cause for correcting a mistake, then it was insufficient for each and every one of the other corrections you have made over the years. Please be consistent; if you want to make this argument now, I expect to see the long-standing text regarding References headers replaced. No, not your "followups MUST/everything else MAY" version, but the "followups MUST/everything else MUST NOT" that used to exist. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SF7Fbr076112 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:07:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SF7FOd076110 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SF7E2s076035 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-id: <01LPZK7IG1IO00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:50:26 +0200" <42C074A2.39D3@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271552.16822.blilly@erols.com> <42C074A2.39D3@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Bruce Lilly wrote: > [IESG process failure, quoting me:] > > after approving technically incompatible [...] > Maybe in the very same telechat (minutes not yet available). > But I wasn't talking about NNTP -27. It was about abusing > v=spf1 sender policies for the incompatible "PRA" causing > bogus FAIL as well as bogus PASS results for received mail, > "unprofessional and unethical". NOT RECOMMENDED and SHOULD > simultaneously. Broken by design instead of engineering. Yes, well, I have to say that out of all the stuff that's going on right now, this is the one that has me the most worried. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SF0AMc071103 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SF0ALH071102 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SF09s5071086 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D538861B4C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12360-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AFF61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:04 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 msg-id issues - attempt to focus Message-ID: <0D95B16E1194E566E1C73FF2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I see that the subject of message-id is still controversial. It is, however, less obvious what needs resolving and how to resolve it. I can see the following issues: 1 - Is News message-ID different from 2822 message-id? As far as I can see, consensus YES - there exist valid 2822 message-iDs that are not valid News message-ids, but not vice versa (News msgid is a strict subset of 2822 msg-id). And current text (with bug fixed) is a reasonable description of the subset. 2 - Is the RHS of the message-ID a domain, a domain|ipv4literal or a domain|ipv4literal|ipv6literal, or an "opaquestring"? As far as I can see, there is no clear-cut consensus. 3 - Is the RHS of the message-ID case sensitive or case insensitive? Here, I think consensus is clear, based on existing implementations' behaviour: Once generated, you cannot change them, and making 2 message-IDs with the same LHS and only different in case on the RHS is NOT a good idea. [deep breath] Is this a fair statement of the issues being discussed? If so, I'll try to make suggestions for text changes..... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SEJkj1038621 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SEJkra038619 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:19:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SEJjhx038596 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D9529902; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SEJhrt002225(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:19:43 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SEJgiX002224(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:19:43 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:19:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506281019.40094.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 14:53, Charles Lindsey wrote: > since this WG has consistenly used the "header" > terminology since the earliest days Charles, please stop promulgating unsupported lies; text from our past drafts has been cited which uses standard terminology. Moreover, it has been stated (with supporting evidence) that such use was self-inconsistent. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SE4pWl026335 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SE4pGk026334 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:04:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SE4oCT026304 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED72F2990A for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SE4m9L002103(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:04:48 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SE4msM002102(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:04:48 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:04:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506281004.46249.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 15:50, Charles Lindsey wrote: > And USEPRO already says what you want. > > Under Duties of a Relaying Agent: > > 8. It MAY delete any Xref header that is present. If you fail to understand not only that "SHOULD NOT" and "MAY" differ, but that the meanings under BCP 14 differ markedly, you shouldn't be editing I-Ds intended for the Standards Track. If you do in fact understand the implications, then please stop wasting everybody's time by promulgating lies; "MAY" != "SHOULD NOT". Such lies are not conducive to rational discussion and are frankly insulting. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDxrk6022623 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDxrXo022622 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:59:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDxqUc022604 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB9529903 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDxoZ6002006(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:59:50 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDxn9k002005(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:59:50 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:59:47 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280959.47701.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 15:39, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Fri June 24 2005 12:44, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> Yes, there is a theoretical possibility of a backward incompatibility > > >There is nothing "theoretical" about it; you know this because it has > >been discussed at length, with supporting documentation -- we know for > >a fact that B news, C news, and INN treat colon as a delimiter, and > >that reassignment will therefore unquestionably break backward > >compatibility. It is disingenuous of you, and frankly insulting to > >others, for you to categorize this as "theoretical". > > On the contrary, I stand by every word that I said. It is highly > improbable that any currenly existing <path-identity> will run into any > problem when ":" ceases to be a path-delimiter. That will happen when every instance of currently conforming news software handling the Path field is replaced. We know from past experience that that will take a very long time. Indeed, if anything can be said to be "theoretical", it is that hypothetical wholesale replacement of such software. > >That wording is inadequate. > > Then you are welcome to propose alternative wordings. No change would be better than that change. > OK, you want a NOTE warning would-be generators of identities to avoid all > hex-digit-only names? No, I want clear semantics and a corresponding mechanism that address the issue, leaving no known technical omission. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDrn7s016616 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDrnBd016612 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDrnXd016595 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C77A29927; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDrlcO001953(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:53:47 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDrko8001952(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:53:47 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:53:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251222.46889.blilly@erols.com> <IIrCnE.Hw8@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrCnE.Hw8@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280953.44435.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 15:26, Charles Lindsey wrote: > They clearly say nothing about the semantics of <id-right>. 2822 clearly says "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address"; it does not say "some random string" or anything like it. Nor does it say that the semantics have changed from RFC 822. [...] > >Please cite RFC 2822 text supporting your "opaque labels" assertion. > > Please cite the RFC text supporting your assertion that they are anything > else than "opaque" (once generated). Sorry, Charles; your claim, your burden of proof. Prove or retract. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDrcf9016380 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDrcf9016379 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDrYe4016270 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.125] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (internal) with ESMTPA; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:53:24 +0100 Message-ID: <42C15653.9080508@isode.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:53:23 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >You could also argue that, since this WG has consistenly used the "header" >terminology since the earliest days, that it should require an actual >consensus to make the change before reversing that decision. > > I was under impression that this is exactly what this thread is all about. Alexey Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDn6gK011201 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDn57L011185 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDn5H0011161 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B1D29930; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDn3hT001917(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:03 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDn26o001916(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIrBIz.G55@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrBIz.G55@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280949.01169.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 15:01, Charles Lindsey wrote: > Simply changing the name of some syntax rule cannot possibly change the > meaning of the document. Ergo, by your own logic, "id-right" does not change the meaning of the RHS of a msg-id from that of a domain name or literal. Nor does it change the fact that domain names are case-insensitive. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDjKcu006731 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDjKvo006728 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:45:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDjJtQ006698 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA83529944 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDjH6j001871(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:45:18 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDjHFp001870(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:45:17 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:45:14 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280945.15285.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 14:53, Charles Lindsey wrote: > if head counting is required. May I remind the co-chairs that there is still the unresolved question as to the method that is to be used to determine consensus; is it in fact a head count (in which case those of us who have been using reasoned arguments can adopt the simpler method of making a non-sequitur comment), or is it to be based on reasoned arguments as was the case in the Resnick-Gierth era, or something else? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDcNk2098670 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDcN7a098669 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDcMLY098651 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA1F29962; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDcKRB001799(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:20 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDcJun001798(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:20 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> <IIr5uD.8pr@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIr5uD.8pr@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280938.16108.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 12:59, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > >While you might not be aware of problems, they certainly exist. Although > >the UUCP mapping project has good intentions and was intended to avoid > >clashes, it failed to do so. I happen to know for a fact (and have > >previously mentioned here) that there have been unresolved duplicates; > >one that I can recall off the top of my head even after a decade is > >multiple sites claiming the name "wolf". I am not aware that the duplicates > >were ever resolved. Do you have evidence to support your claim that "they > >have been sorted out amicably"? > > Do you have evidence that they have not? 1. I do; the issue was reported ages ago, and not resolved after years. 2. Reasoned debate is predicated on a claimant supporting his or her assertions (ideally, *when* they are made), not in saying "here's my assertion; you prove me wrong". You have made the claim that such issues "have been sorted out amicably" -- with to date no supporting evidence, and you have been asked to support *your* claim. The burden of proof for *your* claim is on *you*, not me. > It is clearly the reponsibility of anyone adopting an identity not based > on DNS of IP addresses to choose something that is unique. Our drafts do > not, cannot and should not specify how that is ensured. Au contraire, requiring uniqueness but failing to indicate a suitable method by which uniqueness can be assured is a "known technical omission" (see BCP 9). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDU3mC089135 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDU3rP089134 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDU3JU089116 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F1029926; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDTw66001690(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:29:58 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5SDTwPr001689(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:29:58 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:29:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> <IIr4n5.6JG@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIr4n5.6JG@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506280929.55982.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 12:33, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >We need to specify the semantics of a "path-identity" as one of: > >o an opaque label > >o a public name > >o domain names, IP-addresses, etc. > > No we don't. > > 1. I am not clear what is the distinction between "opaque label" and > "public name", or whether it matters for our purpose. See RFC 1958. > 2. <path-identity>s are used for various purposes. They are used by > relayers to prevent articles being sent where they have already been sent. > Performance issues require that, for such use, regarding them as "opaque > labels" (enabling them to be compared octet by octet) is essential. Our > drafts must impose no requirements that would prevent that opaque > interpretation. They do not currently impose any such. > > 3. <path-identity>s are also useful for humans, who may well use the fact > that they are domain-names or IP-addresses for a variety of purposes > (including generating email to "news@that.domain"). They may even be > interpreted as such by software outside of the critical code within > relayers, if implementors find that useful (for example, when constructing > lists of identities used by their various peers). > > >It is unsatisfactory, because it is self-inconsistent, to give contradictory > >semantics. > > I see nothing contradictory in treating a <path-identity> as opaque for > some purposes, but not for others. I also see nothing unsatisfactory about > it either, particularly as that is the way is has been for the last 20 > years or more. So you see no problem in some random site in some random place with some random affiliation using the opaque label "clerew.man.ac.uk". > >> Also, in order to detect MISMATCHes, you will likely need to know whether > >> the IP address the NNTP packet > > >NNTP is not the only transport mechanism. > > So? So a mismatch in source of UUCP data requires no IP address information, and your argument equating a specific case with the general case fails. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDQ1Ms084909 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5SDQ1E2084908 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:26:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5SDQ0nE084869 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B093461B4C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:25:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11253-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:25:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D3E61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:25:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:25:55 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: Ticket status Message-ID: <608CA538DBC4F0DF19F3E69D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I'm listing the tickets in numeric order. 1002 USEFOR 6. References - Updates needed Resolution proposed on June 14, no objection to content. Status: "text accepted". 1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Cleanup ABNF for msg-id Status: "text needed" I think I can produce a proposed resolution, but it requires wading through the message log again. 1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - Can we deprecate X- headers? Status: Text proposed. Some debate on X-Mailer. 1008 USEFOR 1.5: relation between a followup and a References: header? Status: "Text accepted". 1021 USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups header ABNF and description needs cleanup Status: "Text proposed" - debate. Need to review. 1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Status: "No consensus" - still only 2 voices. 1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? Status: "Text proposed". I'll send out a message; I think we're finished with it. 1029 USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? Status: "No consensus". I'm not sure that's right; will review. 1030 USEFOR general: Backwards compatibility and handling incompatibilities Status: "No consensus". Unless specific suggestions come from it, I'll change the status to "No change needed". 1031 USEFOR general: Standard terminology and text Status: "No consensus". Unless further specific suggestions come from this once the "header" issue is settled, I'll change the status to "No change needed". 1032 USEFOR general: Document changes from RFC 1036 Status: "Text needed" 1042 USEFOR 3.1.5: Newsgroups folding? Status: "Text needed". I think there's consensus that at this time, we cannot recommend folding newsgroups. 1043 USEFOR 2.1 use of term "header" Status: "Text proposed" 1046 USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations Status: "Text needed". Principle seems uncontroversial..... 1047 USEFOR 3.1.6: Path field delimiters and components Status: "Text needed" 1048 USEFOR 3.2.1 Injection-date syntax Status: "Proposed no change" 1050 USEFOR 3.2.11: Xref field for local use only? Status: "No change needed" So far, no tickets have been opened on USEPRO. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S8ShN1031359 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S8ShTP031358 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S8SghA031326 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F1961B91; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:28:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07687-01; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:28:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE3C61B5C; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:28:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:12:50 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Chair hat ON: Free-standing documents (Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution) Message-ID: <B01B60966947165B92FAEA51@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 27. juni 2005 23:37 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: >> That is a sad fact of life. If you write a document that is not free >> standing, and/or does not contain sufficient explanatory material to >> assist the "less than omniscient reader", then people are going to cut >> corners when they come to read it. > > This is a preposterous position for a WG participant, and absolutely > unacceptable position for a WG editor. > > Can I ask the chairs to issue clear statements that we are NOT > writing "free-standing" documents, and that it will be impossible to > create a conforming implementation without reading RFC2822? We are not writing "free-standing" documents, and it will be impossible to create a conforming implementation without reading RFC 2822. (1) As I've remarked in another thread: Sometimes you need to state the obvious. Harald (1) nitpicking mode ON: it's possible that some freestanding piece of software that performs a single function, and which uses libraries written by someone who's carefully studied RFC 2822, can be conforming. It's just quite unlikely. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S45KlB046928 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S45K9S046926 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:05:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S45J7k046895 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5588713A854 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5S45IS06792; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506280405.j5S45IS06792@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <42C0C794.4020605@nntpserver.com> (message from Steve Walker on Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:44:20 -0500) Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627230011.25708A-100000@spsystems.net> <42C0C794.4020605@nntpserver.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> wrote: > Henry Spencer wrote: >> That is their problem, not ours. > > It becomes everyone's problem. What are people going to do when > some idiot starts sending 6 million cancel messages per day. Yawn, ignore them and him, and depeer him. Just like the last time. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3jsFw038770 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3jsC2038769 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3jpaq038742 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S3jpNk008253 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:51 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D95FCE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C0C794.4020605@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:44:20 -0500") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627230011.25708A-100000@spsystems.net> <42C0C794.4020605@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: <87vf3zywi9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > Henry Spencer wrote: >> The reason why yenc isn't compatible with MIME is that the yenc people >> don't care about anything but their own little world. *They* are not >> interested in providing for future adaptation and growth. That is their >> problem, not ours. > It becomes everyone's problem. What are people going to do when some > idiot starts sending 6 million cancel messages per day. You start filtering out their messages until their feed gets terminated. What does that have to do with yEnc, or for that matter, with standardization in general? > I have a network/servers that can handle this load, but the smaller > sites may not. If Usenet doubles every 2 years in ten years you are > looking at >100 million non-compliant article per day. None of which are carried on the text servers anyway. Besides, what difference does that make? What's the point of an argument from volume? Probably 90% of HTML web pages don't comply with the HTML standard either; does that mean that the HTML standard is a waste of time or that all those pages should be declared compliant? Of course not. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3dMKq035852 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3dMeW035851 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3dLBr035844 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 22039514 for multiple; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:39:21 -0500 Message-ID: <42C0C794.4020605@nntpserver.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:44:20 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> CC: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627230011.25708A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627230011.25708A-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > The reason why yenc isn't compatible with MIME is that the yenc people > don't care about anything but their own little world. *They* are not > interested in providing for future adaptation and growth. > > That is their problem, not ours. It becomes everyone's problem. What are people going to do when some idiot starts sending 6 million cancel messages per day. I have a network/servers that can handle this load, but the smaller sites may not. If Usenet doubles every 2 years in ten years you are looking at >100 million non-compliant article per day. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3dAQw035753 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3dAfu035751 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3d933035744 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:39:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-205-238-210-202-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [205.238.210.202]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5S3d3gt026920 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C0C657.6070103@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:39:03 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > > >>2822 is a NORMATIVE reference. We refer to and require people to >>use it. The ENTIRE audience will need to refer and understand >>RFC2822. > > > But I suspect that the entire audience is not going to refer to RFC 2822 > (because they will just use what they "remember from last time they read > it"). And I doubt they will fully understand it, much less the > ramifications of all the other MIME etc documents that we refer to > normatively. > > That is a sad fact of life. If you write a document that is not free > standing, and/or does not contain sufficient explanatory material to > assist the "less than omniscient reader", then people are going to cut > corners when they come to read it. I object to all parts of the drafts written or inserted because of an assumption that implementors are uncooperative and lazy. Adopting this position officially will clear the way for removal of inappropriate uses of MUST/NOT imperatives, result in a shorter document, and I believe will improve the tone and usefulness of several sections. (This mostly affects USEPRO, I think.) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3bcrf035120 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3bcvW035119 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3bZR6035098 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-205-238-210-202-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [205.238.210.202]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5S3bCgt026433 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C0C5E8.8000302@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:37:12 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > > >>2822 is a NORMATIVE reference. We refer to and require people to >>use it. The ENTIRE audience will need to refer and understand >>RFC2822. > > > But I suspect that the entire audience is not going to refer to RFC 2822 > (because they will just use what they "remember from last time they read > it"). And I doubt they will fully understand it, much less the > ramifications of all the other MIME etc documents that we refer to > normatively. > > That is a sad fact of life. If you write a document that is not free > standing, and/or does not contain sufficient explanatory material to > assist the "less than omniscient reader", then people are going to cut > corners when they come to read it. This is a preposterous position for a WG participant, and absolutely unacceptable position for a WG editor. Can I ask the chairs to issue clear statements that we are NOT writing "free-standing" documents, and that it will be impossible to create a conforming implementation without reading RFC2822? In evidence that this must be so, I offer the wording in Section 3 of USEFOR-USEFOR-04. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3YOxN033466 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3YOu4033465 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3YNml033446 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S3YM1v021185 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:22 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2F92CE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:22 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C0C589.2000805@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:35:37 -0500") References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> <87d5q719z7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42C0C589.2000805@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:22 -0700 Message-ID: <874qbj17ep.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > I think most people are agreeing that a mime compliant yEncoder standard > isn't possible in the near future. If you want mime and you don't want > to break existing practice, the only choice I see is to not require > mime. It's the only way not to break stuff. Well, I vote for requiring MIME and letting non-MIME articles just be non-compliant. It's not like IETF standards are some sort of government law, or that software that doesn't comply with them will magically stop functioning. We need to make sure that nothing in the standard requires software to refuse to deal with non-compliant articles and then leave the degree to which people want to deal with them up to the individual software authors, exactly the way that yEnc is now. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3UdVT031718 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3Ud4F031717 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3Uc1c031687 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 22039306 for multiple; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:30:38 -0500 Message-ID: <42C0C589.2000805@nntpserver.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:35:37 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> <87d5q719z7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87d5q719z7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > > >>The existing practice is posting non-mime articles. Today the bulk may >>be yEncoded and next year it may be something else. It's certain that >>Usenet will adapt and grow. Forcing absolute restrictions on the >>article format is a bad idea. > > > Steve, this is the sort of statement that causes people involved in > message format standardization to tear their hair out. This is exactly > the *point* of MIME -- it's an *extensible* framework for allowing the > message format to change and evolve. This is the whole reason why we're > *using* it. MIME takes care of many of the corner cases that make > changing the article format hard. I can certainly see this point and I'm willing to bet that the yEncoder author would also see the value of MIME if they took the time. It doesn't change the fact that we have a huge amount of non-mime articles to deal with today and for the foreseeable future. We just need a little black box to shove all the non-mime articles into until everyone either uses mime or it's replaced with something better. I think most people are agreeing that a mime compliant yEncoder standard isn't possible in the near future. If you want mime and you don't want to break existing practice, the only choice I see is to not require mime. It's the only way not to break stuff. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3HcmE026728 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3Hcf9026727 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3HaP3026713 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5S3HUF1026308; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5S3HU6q026307; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:17:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> cc: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627230011.25708A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > The existing practice is posting non-mime articles. Depends very much on where you look. Per earlier comments by Russ, I ran some numbers on a sample of just under 54,000 articles, from most of the *text* newsgroups in the traditional Usenet hierarchies, and found 58% had a MIME-Version header. Existing practice in the text groups *is* increasingly to use MIME. See earlier comments about the binary groups being basically a separate community. > Today the > bulk may be yEncoded and next year it may be something else. > It's certain that Usenet will adapt and grow... Exactly. And precisely because we can't predict just what formats will be in use in the future, there is every reason to want some kind of standard labeling scheme, so you can *tell* what format an article is in and whether you know how to decode it, rather than having to guess based on heuristics. The labeling system needs to be extensible, so it covers data formats we don't know about today. And it should be non-intrusive, so it doesn't inject garbage into the Subject header or other headers which already have other purposes. And that's what MIME is. It's a little more complicated than it needs to be, partly because there were some difficult backward-compatibility constraints. But by and large, MIME is a well-designed framework to support future adaptation and growth, and make it less painful. The reason why yenc isn't compatible with MIME is that the yenc people don't care about anything but their own little world. *They* are not interested in providing for future adaptation and growth. That is their problem, not ours. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3ENWA025078 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S3ENft025077 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S3ELTt025039 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn6RN-00068P-Mq for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:07:13 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:07:13 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:07:13 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:13:21 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42C0C051.2CFC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> <42C0BEE4.10405@nntpserver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker wrote: > RFC 1036 does not even include the word MIME. That's no surprise, 1036 < 1341 < 1521 < 2045. OTOH I get 79 occurences of MIME in 78 lines of s-o-1036. Only 26 in 24 lines of usefor-04. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S32L0C020055 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S32Lmi020054 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S32Ign020032 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 22038658 for multiple; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:02:17 -0500 Message-ID: <42C0BEE4.10405@nntpserver.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:07:16 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> CC: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > As you've been told repeatedly, just because a client is MIME-capable > doesn't mean that it insists on handling only MIME messages. Most > plain-text articles on Usenet today do not have MIME-Version headers. > A Usenet client which ignored any article lacking a MIME-Version header > would be useless. If your intent is to allow millions of non-mime articles to flow freely each day through the Usenet why would you require all Usenet clients to support MIME. The support may even be a two edged sword in that the client who supported mime wouldn't be able to post non-mime and still call themselves a compliant news client. Why would software developers bother supporting any requirements, like line length and 7bit headers, it they are still going to be called non-compliant. Having hundreds of clients each making their own rules would be bad for Usenet in general. From your charter (website): > The Goal of this working group is to publish a standards-track > successor to RFC 1036 that with particular attention to > backward compatibility How is requiring mime backwards compatible with out providing some type of out (meaning SHOULD instead of MUST) for the existing articles that are not, and can not be, mime compliant? RFC 1036 does not even include the word MIME. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2qqcp016572 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2qqgm016571 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2qoVp016562 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn66U-0003KR-2K for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:45:38 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:45:38 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:45:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1048 Injection-Date syntax Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:42:22 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 7 Message-ID: <42C0B90E.5F95@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IIrA5q.Eup@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > I still prefer GMT on its own Add me, but without s/SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT/ please, GMT is neither critical nor harmful. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2crHi011160 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2crkN011159 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2crkX011153 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S2cqAC026893 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:52 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2D4DAE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:52 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:33:26 -0500") References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:52 -0700 Message-ID: <87d5q719z7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > The existing practice is posting non-mime articles. Today the bulk may > be yEncoded and next year it may be something else. It's certain that > Usenet will adapt and grow. Forcing absolute restrictions on the > article format is a bad idea. Steve, this is the sort of statement that causes people involved in message format standardization to tear their hair out. This is exactly the *point* of MIME -- it's an *extensible* framework for allowing the message format to change and evolve. This is the whole reason why we're *using* it. MIME takes care of many of the corner cases that make changing the article format hard. This sort of massive missing of the point is a lot of the reason why I have a hard time caring about the binary Usenet any more. It's exactly what made the original yEnc discussions so frustrating. I and others put a lot of time into trying to get yEnc to be deployable in the right way, and was basically told that our input was not of interest, that standardization was a waste of time, and that they found efforts to make things interoperate properly offensive. Not responsible for advice not taken. We can't standardize the work of people who are actively opposed to standardization. As far as I'm concerned, enough of that reaction and one forfeits one's seat at the table. If the yEnc folks are happy to be unstandardized, they can go right ahead and continue to be unstandardized after this working group finishes its work, as far as I'm concerned. There is *way* too much NIH syndrome and inferior reinventions of the wheel on Usenet historically. In the meantime, I have problems that I want to solve, and I'm not going to stop trying to solve them just because other people are uninterested in cooperation. Nor do I think that we should bend over backwards to accomodate the needs of people who have chosen to stay actively uninvolved in the process. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2UTsA008208 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2UTLf008207 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2US3u008198 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S2URQr025940 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:27 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4FE9BE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:27 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:50:31 GMT") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: <871x6n2oxo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Under Duties of a Serving Agent: > 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It > then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. Please allow for Xref slaving. (I don't know if the context takes care of that.) > I see little merit in upgrading that MAY to a SHOULD (no > interoperability issue or harm arises). It is a good practice, and to be > commended as such, which is why that MAY is there. I think the lack of an Xref header would be surprising to clients, so I would lean towards SHOULD personally, but I haven't really thought about it at any great length. > And I take issue with your use of the term "local system". I cannot > accept that currently used terminology would equate a server plus all > its thousands of clients scattered around the globe with a "local > system". Now if you'd just apply that same argument to "cooperating subnet"... :) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2SbLs007632 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2SbBd007631 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2Sac8007623 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S2SZRC025429 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:36 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8FA5FE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components In-Reply-To: <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:39:22 GMT") References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IILL5L.5B1@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: <8764vz2p0s.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > On the contrary, I stand by every word that I said. It is highly > improbable that any currenly existing <path-identity> will run into any > problem when ":" ceases to be a path-delimiter. Ceasing to use it as a path delimiter is not the problem; in practice, no one uses anything other than "!". Starting to use it for something *else* is the problem, since sites will continue treating it as a path delimiter. I do agree that the possibility of colliding with a <=4 character path identity isn't exactly the sort of risk that would keep me up at night. > And how many sites do you suppose there exist on Usenet which consist of > exactly four Hex Digits? Pedant point: one to four hex digits, as you can omit the zero padding in IPv6 address specifications. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2ST1p007604 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2STES007603 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2SSHL007594 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 22037831 for multiple; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:28:27 -0500 Message-ID: <42C0B6F6.3070406@nntpserver.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:33:26 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart wrote: > Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> wrote: > > >>The percentage, which is greater than 65% and growing, of >>non-conformance is too large to just be ignored. > > > Where are you getting that number? Are you including plaintext > articles that have only ASCII characters and lack MIME headers? Those > _are_ valid MIME. I am counting only yEncoded articles in that number and only the ones that bother to include the word yEnc in the Subject header. The number of non-conforming articles is higher than 65%. I just choose to use yEnc'ed because it's the most popular article format, conforming or not. > It's trying to standardize those existing practices which can be > standardized. Apparently yEnc can't be; at least, the efforts so far > have failed, and this is the wrong group to work on standardizing yEnc > anyway, for any number of reasons. The existing practice is posting non-mime articles. Today the bulk may be yEncoded and next year it may be something else. It's certain that Usenet will adapt and grow. Forcing absolute restrictions on the article format is a bad idea. > If you want us to point to a yEnc standard in addition to the MIME > standard, show us the one to point to. Even if there was a fixed yEncoding standard I would still not suggest that it be used. The article format need to remain flexible so that Usenet can continue to grow and adapt. There needs to be someway to allow posting content without necessary restrictions on the exact message structure. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2PBJp006311 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2PB5l006310 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2PA0c006294 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5S2P9JS009562 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:09 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5DF88E7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:09 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <IIr6Bo.9os@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:09:24 GMT") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIr6Bo.9os@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:25:09 -0700 Message-ID: <87aclb2p6i.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Yes, the Yenc people have been told, repeatedly, that they could start > using > Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-yenc > tomorrow without breaking any rules. But they just don't want to listen. > What is abundantly clear is nothing which requires special keywords in > the Subject header for it to work is _ever_ going to get to be an IETF > standard. > Before reading Russ's message, I was about to propose: > Content-Type: application/octet-stream > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > as a way of legitimizing current Yenc practice (see remark from Frank, I > believe, that Yenc encourages lines to be kept well within 998). Bruce's message is entirely correct; they should really be using: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-yenc or whatever the actual content of the thing is so that software knows what this blob of data is supposed to decode to. All the additional metadata and multipart stuff is still a problem, though. If it's actually a multipart message, I don't think there's any way to get around needing application/x-yenc right now (and of course, yEnc doesn't have any way of embedding the file type because the author of yEnc didn't understand the need, so you have to play extension guessing games to figure it out after that, with all the problems that go with that). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HLbl003724 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HLMJ003723 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HKjo003702 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32f.11e0f.257 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:19 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CHr07897 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21610 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IIrCnE.Hw8@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> <IILIx0.4KM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506251222.46889.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:26:02 GMT Lines: 77 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506251222.46889.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 24 2005 11:55, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> In <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >> >> >On Wed June 22 2005 15:18, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> >> >> In RFC 2822 an <id-right> is a string of characters satisfying some ABNF. >> >> It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a <quoted-pair> >> >> is "invisible"). >> >> >No, the semantics are "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address)". >> >> I do not see where RFC 2822 says that. >It says so (in those words) in the part which I quoted from 2822 and which >you have snipped. Here are the snipped words: > > Since the msg-id has > > a similar syntax to angle-addr (identical except that comments and > > folding white space are not allowed), a good method is to put the > > domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the > > message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and > > put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with > > some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available > > on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand > > side. > They clearly say nothing about the semantics of <id-right>. Note that the word "semantics" implies something that tells you the "meaning". The text in question gives sound (even RECOMMENDED) advice on how to *generate* an <id-right>, in order to fulfil the REQUIREMENT that what you generate is to be globally unique. It tells you nothing about the meaning of the object you have generated, or what it is to be used for, or how (though there are instructions elsewhere in RFC 2822 as to how to use it in constructing a References field). In particular, there is nothing to say that its semantics (meaning) is in any way related to the semantics (meaning) of a <domain>. If you read elsewhere in RFC 2822, you will find that, semantically, the <msg-id> is intended to identify a particular version of a particular message, and also that certain rules regarding quoted-pairs are relevant (though that bit does not apply in USEFOR). And that is all the semantics that is given. > John Stanley seems to have identified some problem >related to editing (unless of course you were exaggerating about "an hour >or so" (N.B. there was a "smiley" notation indicating sadness, but none >indicating intended humor or exaggeration)); John thinks the edit could be done in 10 minutes. He might well be right, but the remaining 50 minutes, "or so", would be needed to remove all the false positives that such a naive approach would undoubtedly throw up :-). >> All of <path-identity>, <id-left> and <id-right> are "opaque >> labels", whether you initially construct them out of domain-names or >> domain literals, or whatever else. >Please cite RFC 2822 text supporting your "opaque labels" assertion. Please cite the RFC text supporting your assertion that they are anything else than "opaque" (once generated). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HKDP003709 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HKJc003708 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HJax003689 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32e.11e0f.256 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:18 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CCd07863 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21603 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIr5uD.8pr@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:59:01 GMT Lines: 65 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 24 2005 11:31, Charles Lindsey wrote: >OK; we're agreed that there is a uniqueness requirement. N.B. requirement >as in "necessary", not "wouldn't it be nice if...". > >> > That in turn requires either >> >a hierarchical system (like DNS) or a central authority (like the >> >UUCP mapping project was supposed to be, though it never worked >> >well). >> >> But that does not follow at all. Usenet has been working quite happily for >> many years now just by admins using their common sense when choosing >> <path-identity>s. I am not aware of serious clashes that have occurred, >> and if they have then they have been sorted out amicably (because it is in >> everybody's interest to do so). >While you might not be aware of problems, they certainly exist. Although >the UUCP mapping project has good intentions and was intended to avoid >clashes, it failed to do so. I happen to know for a fact (and have >previously mentioned here) that there have been unresolved duplicates; >one that I can recall off the top of my head even after a decade is >multiple sites claiming the name "wolf". I am not aware that the duplicates >were ever resolved. Do you have evidence to support your claim that "they >have been sorted out amicably"? Do you have evidence that they have not? Do you have evidence that the various sites called "wolf" have actually used that name in their path-identities? Have you ever seen dicussion in the various news.admin.* newsgroups discussing problems arising from such causes (I have not, that I recall). Has Usenet been brought to its kneed due to this cause (I often hear of the "death of the net predicted" for a variety of causes, but never from that one). In short, have you any evidence that the present setup (with no Cabal and not even any UUCP maps anymore) is in any sense "broken"? Clearly, use of domain-names or IP addresses is an excellent way of ensuring that you have acquired a unique path-identity, but not all sites necessarily even have an internet connection (for example, those using UUCP or carrier pigeons). It is clearly the reponsibility of anyone adopting an identity not based on DNS of IP addresses to choose something that is unique. Our drafts do not, cannot and should not specify how that is ensured. It is a problem for that site to sort out as it sees fit. All out drafts have ever said (and this is now in USEPRO) is: | 3. An arbitrary name believed to be unique and registered at least | with all other news-servers receiving articles directly from the | given one. If you do not like that, then you are free to propose alternatives. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HJpX003692 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HJcl003691 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HI42003660 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32d.11e0f.255 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:17 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CBM07853 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21602 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIr4n5.6JG@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IILGK3.44x@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:33:05 GMT Lines: 64 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >We need to specify the semantics of a "path-identity" as one of: >o an opaque label >o a public name >o domain names, IP-addresses, etc. No we don't. 1. I am not clear what is the distinction between "opaque label" and "public name", or whether it matters for our purpose. 2. <path-identity>s are used for various purposes. They are used by relayers to prevent articles being sent where they have already been sent. Performance issues require that, for such use, regarding them as "opaque labels" (enabling them to be compared octet by octet) is essential. Our drafts must impose no requirements that would prevent that opaque interpretation. They do not currently impose any such. 3. <path-identity>s are also useful for humans, who may well use the fact that they are domain-names or IP-addresses for a variety of purposes (including generating email to "news@that.domain"). They may even be interpreted as such by software outside of the critical code within relayers, if implementors find that useful (for example, when constructing lists of identities used by their various peers). >It is unsatisfactory, because it is self-inconsistent, to give contradictory >semantics. I see nothing contradictory in treating a <path-identity> as opaque for some purposes, but not for others. I also see nothing unsatisfactory about it either, particularly as that is the way is has been for the last 20 years or more. >> Also, in order to detect MISMATCHes, you will likely need to know whether >> the IP address the NNTP packet >NNTP is not the only transport mechanism. So? It is widely used, and current implementations regularly take note of the source IP of incoming packets for a variety of purposes. It is expected that those purposes will, in future, include detection of MISMATCHes (indeed, some servers even do so currently). >Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is interpretation of the >"path-identity" *as* an IP address, not interpretation of an IP address >obtained from another source. The expectation is that those two will be the same, and newsadmins should not be accepting differences without knowing why (there are, of course, lots of valid reasons why it might be so, and also lots of reason why it might indicate malpractice). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HILl003673 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HI5H003672 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HHvS003647 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32c.11e0f.254 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:16 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CJ307910 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:19 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21611 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Message-ID: <IIrD9M.IMM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IILL5L.5B1@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:39:22 GMT Lines: 53 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 24 2005 12:44, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Yes, there is a theoretical possibility of a backward incompatibility >There is nothing "theoretical" about it; you know this because it has >been discussed at length, with supporting documentation -- we know for >a fact that B news, C news, and INN treat colon as a delimiter, and >that reassignment will therefore unquestionably break backward >compatibility. It is disingenuous of you, and frankly insulting to >others, for you to categorize this as "theoretical". On the contrary, I stand by every word that I said. It is highly improbable that any currenly existing <path-identity> will run into any problem when ":" ceases to be a path-delimiter. And even if it does it will be of limited impact, and will easily be fixed. Hence "theoretical possibility" was an appropriate way to describe it. >> I have already proposed a wording (in reply to John) for inclusion in >> USEFOR to advise care when choosing <path-identity>s. >That wording is inadequate. Then you are welcome to propose alternative wordings. >Sigh (again). Charles, do you honestly fail to recognize, after it has >been pointed out and after Frank has also mentioned "cafe" etc., that >"dead" and "beef" are composed entirely of characters representing >hexadecimal digits (and moreover DEADBEEF is a well-known set of such >heaxadecimal digits) and therefore might well appear in an IPv6 address >literal? And how many sites do you suppose there exist on Usenet which consist of exactly four Hex Digits? Perhaps somebody with access to a large server and some spare machine cycles to burn would care to do a grep for us. OK, you want a NOTE warning would-be generators of identities to avoid all hex-digit-only names? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HHBt003656 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HH2b003655 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HG43003632 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32b.11e0f.253 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:15 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CKw07933 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:20 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21612 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <IIrDs7.JEM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:50:31 GMT Lines: 51 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. >There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. Best >current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a separate >database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the article >header. I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion >of course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: Gentlemen, This is a protocol issue, and therfore it belongs in USEPRO, and most certainly not in USEFOR. And USEPRO already says what you want. Under Duties of a Relaying Agent: 8. It MAY delete any Xref header that is present. Under Duties of a Serving Agent: 7. It MUST remove any Xref header (F-3.2.10) from each article. It then MAY (and usually will) generate a fresh Xref header. I see little merit in upgrading that MAY to a SHOULD (no interoperability issue or harm arises). It is a good practice, and to be commended as such, which is why that MAY is there. > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. And I take issue with your use of the term "local system". I cannot accept that currently used terminology would equate a server plus all its thousands of clients scattered around the globe with a "local system". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HF0I003629 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HFK8003628 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HEd0003605 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b329.11e0f.251 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:13 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CFF07883 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21607 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIrB5D.FMB@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:53:37 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym > for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows > the terminology of RFC 2822 in using the term "header field", > based on a belief that consistent terminology among specifications > that depend on each other makes the specifications easier to use > in the long run. Add "even if it confuses the rest of the world, and leads them to complain you are stuck in your ivory tower and would rather you had a document that was pedantically correct rather than one of use to the people working at the coal face". And I suspect that "in the long run" the terminology that the marketplace uses will eventually prevail, even for email. I am still with Henry on this one, and I see that Graham Drabble has now joined us, if head counting is required. You could also argue that, since this WG has consistenly used the "header" terminology since the earliest days, that it should require an actual consensus to make the change before reversing that decision. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HG8Z003639 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HGxW003638 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HFtk003622 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b32a.11e0f.252 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:14 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CE907878 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21606 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIrArH.FII@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:45:17 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >2822 is a NORMATIVE reference. We refer to and require people to >use it. The ENTIRE audience will need to refer and understand >RFC2822. But I suspect that the entire audience is not going to refer to RFC 2822 (because they will just use what they "remember from last time they read it"). And I doubt they will fully understand it, much less the ramifications of all the other MIME etc documents that we refer to normatively. That is a sad fact of life. If you write a document that is not free standing, and/or does not contain sufficient explanatory material to assist the "less than omniscient reader", then people are going to cut corners when they come to read it. That is why Son-of-1036 was so long, and it is also why our earlier article-nn drafts were so long, and it is a lesson I and my colleagues learnt the hard way many years ago when writing the Revised Algol 68 Report. And yet Usefor is excessively short and brief (with no examples, and few NOTEs). Some people seem to think that is a Good Thing. We shall see. >I made this point before. I do not recall any reply addressing >the point. Maybe we shouldn't use RFC2822 as a base. There is much merit in that, but we have already changed horses in mid-stream once. Let us not do it again. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HFOA003615 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HFWo003614 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HDVh003588 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b329.11e0f.250 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:13 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CDV07871 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21605 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1048 Injection-Date syntax Message-ID: <IIrA5q.Eup@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:32:14 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I have created ticket #1048 for this issue, with a "Discussion:" field of >"Proposed no change", since that's what I ended up parsing Bruce's comment >as. >This may be uncontroversial...... > Harald Yes. I think the last thing we want is different syntax for the various headers that use <date-time>. By all means, if sites want to use whatever "MAY accept" discretion we give them differently for different headers, then that is their choice. AFAICS, the only two options open to us are to leave the syntax as Harald recently proposed it, with just "GMT" on its own. Or else to replace that "GMT" with the whole of <obs-zone>. Oh, and the generation of GMT or <obs-zone) should be MUST NOT rather than the SHOULD NOT that is there at the moment. Apart from that, the general "MAY accept obs-syntax" gives everything else that is required. I still prefer GMT on its own, and I think that was the consensus view as Harald determined it when he opened this ticket. But it is Harald's call. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HEvH003601 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HEeR003600 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HDox003579 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b328.11e0f.24f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:12 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CCC07867 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21604 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Message-ID: <IIr6Bo.9os@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:09:24 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Actually, I believe that: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: application/x-yenc > Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-yenc >does pretty much what you would want from the perspective of a MIME client >that doesn't understand yEnc. The unrecognized CTE pretty much tells >everything "hands off" in a particularly thorough manner. ... Yes, the Yenc people have been told, repeatedly, that they could start using Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-yenc tomorrow without breaking any rules. But they just don't want to listen. What is abundantly clear is nothing which requires special keywords in the Subject header for it to work is _ever_ going to get to be an IETF standard. Before reading Russ's message, I was about to propose: Content-Type: application/octet-stream Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit as a way of legitimizing current Yenc practice (see remark from Frank, I believe, that Yenc encourages lines to be kept well within 998). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HDPv003586 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HDmI003585 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HCZx003566 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b327.11e0f.24e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:11 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CLC07940 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:21 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21613 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <IIrE44.JIC@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:57:40 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I'd also like to add two more definitions, but those are less important: > This specification also uses the following terms: > Header line - a line as defined in [RFC2822] section 2.1 that forms > part of a header field. I think that depends on whether and how the term gets used when the problems you identified earlier get fixed (I hope Ken is owrking on that one). > Header field content - the field body of a header field, not including > leading or trailing whitespace, or comments. >I'm not sure whether the last one is what Charles wanted for his "semantic >content" construct - but I'm sure he'll tell us if it's not. Please leave me to define the term in USEPRO, where it will be used. My next job is to trawl through all the places in USEPRO that would use the term, in order to see exactly what properties I need in order to make it work. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HC0C003577 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2HCba003576 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2HBjE003564 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b326.11e0f.24d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:10 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CGG07889 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21608 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Our web site Message-ID: <IIrBF0.FxL@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> <IILGur.47H@clerew.man.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:59:24 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <IILGur.47H@clerew.man.ac.uk> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >In <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >>Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is incomplete. >I eventually got around to updating my Perl script to grab them from the >Landfield site, and even managed to download a couple of months' worth. >But next day I found the site down, and I have not been able to catch it >up since. But I shall keep trying. And I have at last caught that site "up", and my script to download the missing archive is chugging away, even as we speak. >And I was going to put the USEFOR-04 draft up at the same time, which is >why that has never happened as of yet. And I have now done that. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2H8wh003552 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S2H8Ss003551 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S2H7Wo003545 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-134.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.134]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42c0b322.11e0f.24b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:17:06 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5S2CGi07893 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21609 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IIrBIz.G55@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:01:47 GMT Lines: 20 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >So for these two details the rough consensus is IMHO clear. >Putting it together the consequence _should_ be also clear: > msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" Simply changing the name of some syntax rule cannot possibly change the meaning of the document. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S03hgP058368 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5S03hV9058367 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5S03e8N058341 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5S03ZF1024331; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5S03YFX024330; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:03:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C080C8.962@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627200154.24230A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > a checksum (on the end line), typically CRC16 based. > > More dark and bad memories, and now they tell us that MD5 > is obsolete. MD5 is still an excellent choice when the concern is accidental corruption, rather than deliberate human malice. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RMhnA4047133 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RMhn1g047132 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RMhmZx047124 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn2DV-00020P-9o for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:36:37 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:36:37 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:36:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:42:16 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 38 Message-ID: <42C080C8.962@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <200506271519.26481.blilly@erols.com> <42C05DCB.5A37@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYJ4BJ3EE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ned Freed wrote: > an octal protection mask Yes, now I recall it, user group world, odd was "dangerous". When my OS/2 box dies I'll proably meet these bits again. > a checksum (on the end line), typically CRC16 based. More dark and bad memories, and now they tell us that MD5 is obsolete. > at the time there were a fair number of systems that used > national variants of ASCII Yes, the German variant was very ugly. I also didn't like the trigraph stuff in C. > plenty of format variations, including some really wild > ones, in the 4-in-5 space. One I vaguely recall is "FIFfy" (four in five) used for binary file transfers in German videotext (like Prestel). >> I didn't read the old CTE-drafts, did one of them cover >> the CTE-part of "yenc" for some value of n <= 997 ? > Yes, that's exactly what my draft does (or did). Then getting an RfC for it is a good idea. I'm only lost why it should integrate gzip, compression algorithms come and go, they never satisfy all users or all applications. begin 644 greets.txt /1W)E971S+"!&<F%N:PT* ` end Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RLueOl039567 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RLueSw039566 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RLucxf039553 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn1Tw-0002SO-RP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:32 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:32 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:49:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:50:26 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42C074A2.39D3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271552.16822.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: [IESG process failure, quoting me:] > after approving technically incompatible [...] Maybe in the very same telechat (minutes not yet available). But I wasn't talking about NNTP -27. It was about abusing v=spf1 sender policies for the incompatible "PRA" causing bogus FAIL as well as bogus PASS results for received mail, "unprofessional and unethical". NOT RECOMMENDED and SHOULD simultaneously. Broken by design instead of engineering. > Use msg-id as defined in 2822 No, it's broken, it's too broad for all protocols where it's used, we need an interoperable subset. And the maximal set of syntactically well-formed <message-id>s is already clear. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RLPaLd030738 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RLPa4n030737 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RLPZgb030727 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-id: <01LPYJ4BJ3EE00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:12:59 +0200" <42C05DCB.5A37@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <200506271519.26481.blilly@erols.com> <42C05DCB.5A37@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Bruce Lilly wrote: > >> UUENCODE variants, but I've long since lost track of it. > > Maybe http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/uuencode-no.html ? I actually think someone took this and generalized it at some point, but I cannot seem to track down the reference in my email archives and google isn't being helpful today. > Nice, thanks, that zoo was fortunately replaced by B64 and > MIME. For "yenc" it's the same zoo again, trying to solve > several problems. Ned wrote: > >> Actually, it is clear that uuencode is a CTE. > The main part of it, binary IN, some text OUT, could be a > CTE. But it also had some kind of a Content-Disposition > (specifying filename), IIRC it also allowed the indication > of "executable". Uuencode typically allows the optional specification of a file name and an octal protection mask. What's actually allowed as a file name varies, as does what's allowed in the protection field. There are variants that also include a checksum (on the end line), typically CRC16 based. But none of this makes UUENCODE ineligable as a CTE. If it did base64 would also have been ineligable, as the original specification of it allowed for embeeded comments (and maybe some variably in terminator representation - I no longer recall). In the case of base64 we simply dropped the comment facility, had we gone with base64 we would have dealt with the filename, protection, and other gunk by calling for it to be assigned a fixed value on encode and ignored on decode. We elected to go with base64 and not with uuencode for two main reasons: (1) Uuencode's character repetoire exceeded the minimal safe subset of ASCII, and at the time there were a fair number of systems that used national variants of ASCII and had trouble with characters that uuencode uses and (2) All the format variations were already causing interop problems, and even if we nailed things down in our specificaiton the temptation to use just existing software would surely have led to more problems. Similar issues apply to the 4-in-5 encodings. In particular, there just aren't enough safe characters in the minimal safe subset of ASCII to do base85. And there are plenty of format variations, including some really wild ones, in the 4-in-5 space. In retrospect I kind of wish we'd ignored the minimal safe subset issue and gone with a 4-in-5 (preferably the one that's built into PostScript since it is fully and completely specified), since 20% overhead is a lot more attactive than 33%. But you have to remember that the entire MIME effort started not as an attempt to send non-text material through email. Rather, the main goal was to internationalize text email. It is unlikely in the extreme that given the original purpose of the effort we would have allowed to ignore what was then a fairly critical factor in the handling of internationalized text. > I didn't read the old CTE-drafts, did one of them cover the > CTE-part of "yenc" for some value of n <= 997 ? Bye, Frank Yes, that's exactly what my draft does (or did). Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RKYmHY003788 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RKYmAT003787 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RKYllx003781 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dn0CW-0003cL-JI for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:27:28 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:27:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:27:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: draft language (Was Re: Feedback on proposal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:33:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 19 Message-ID: <42C0629D.5BEB@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > the draft contains about a dozen instances of "this standard" Okay, that's wrong, minus a case introduced by the boilerplate. But we're still going for "proposed standard", and saying "our standard" in a WG discussion is perfectly okay, because we've to make sure that all works as soon as it is a standard. Declaring all pre-2231 UAs as "non-conformant" is an odd idea, normally that's a case for a SHOULD meaning "old UAs have an excuse, but new UAs need another _good_ excuse if they don't support 2231". So why a MUST in this case, jumping from 1036 to MUST 2231 is wrong. Jumping from s-o-1036 to MUST 2049 is okay from my POV, but Steve says that even this is too much :-( Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RKELtV097723 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RKEL6t097722 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:14:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RKEJF4097698 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dmzsn-0007Nq-D5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:07:05 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:12:59 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42C05DCB.5A37@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <200506271519.26481.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> UUENCODE variants, but I've long since lost track of it. > Maybe http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/uuencode-no.html ? Nice, thanks, that zoo was fortunately replaced by B64 and MIME. For "yenc" it's the same zoo again, trying to solve several problems. Ned wrote: >> Actually, it is clear that uuencode is a CTE. The main part of it, binary IN, some text OUT, could be a CTE. But it also had some kind of a Content-Disposition (specifying filename), IIRC it also allowed the indication of "executable". I didn't read the old CTE-drafts, did one of them cover the CTE-part of "yenc" for some value of n <= 997 ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RK2Zdt094291 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RK2ZQ1094290 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RK2Yhr094275 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RK2X6G026127 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:33 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45566E7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities In-Reply-To: <200506271552.16822.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:52:16 -0400") References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506271552.16822.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:33 -0700 Message-ID: <87r7ena7qe.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Mon June 27 2005 14:32, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> In fact NNTP -27 was approved, 1*248 VCHAR excl. ">" within >> angle brackets is settled. > Somebody recently said "The IESG is already at its lowest point > of unprofessional and unethical behaviour after approving > technically incompatible [...]"... The NNTP draft defines the minimum syntactic restrictions on message ID required to work with NNTP software and explicitly states that additional syntactic restrictions will be imposed by the relevant article standard. It is compatible with our proposed message ID definition in that it doesn't add additional restrictions. It is not fully compatible with the RFC 2822 message ID syntax for the reasons previously stated here (primarily whitespace and multiple representations for the same message ID), since making it so (even apart from whether that would be a good idea) would have been significantly incompatible with existing NNTP practice and hence outside our WG charter. Please note that NNTP is not used exclusively with Usenet messages, and was not written limiting itself to Usenet messages. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJxdSt093687 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJxdwM093686 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:59:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ID-77355.user.dfncis.de ([82.133.101.159]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5RJxbrS093678 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graham.drabble@lineone.net) Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (192.168.254.2) with news-to-mail ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:56:16 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) From: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:56:16 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns9682D4FE2CE15grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 23 Jun 2005 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in news:IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk: > But, "general" apart, I think current practice on Usenet is that > single-component groups are not supposed to be there, and my > wording was intended to reflect that. But, as I said, my wording > is up for debate. The more I think about this the less I'm convinced that we need to say anything as part of the standard (we might want to look at this again come USEAGE). Single component groups and groups with all numeric components can only harm servers that choose to carry them, if they simply turn up in a transited article or in a control message which is not actioned they aren't a problem. It can therefore be left up to each administrator to decide based on local policy whether to add these groups. -- Graham Drabble http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh1646/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJqMo3091559 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJqMV5091557 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJqLlR091535 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA62429969; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJqJH4010645(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:52:19 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJqJTv010644(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:52:19 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:52:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506271552.16822.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 14:32, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > In fact NNTP -27 was approved, 1*248 VCHAR excl. ">" within > angle brackets is settled. Somebody recently said "The IESG is already at its lowest point of unprofessional and unethical behaviour after approving technically incompatible [...]"... > > The (now past) WG co-chairs clearly indicated our direction: > > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Mar/0305.html > > That article says that USEFOR produces its fourth and final > I18N RFC in November 2003. That was the suggested ("here's what we suggest as a schedule") for the timeline. > > with our work products to deal only with articles that > > conform to 2822 and MIME syntax. > > Sure, "<" <id-local> "@" <id-domain> ">" or Charles' version > are a proper subset of what 2822 / MIME / NNTP say. Fine, Use msg-id as defined in 2822 and add a note saying what other protocol imposes limitations, what those limitations are, etc. as suggested by Mark. > > N.B. not to *redefine* 2822 or MIME syntax. > > Now what's that, avoiding <id-left> "@" <id-right> is not > good enough, Not "not good enough", a redefinition is harmful (as detailed earlier). > do you maybe want a new term for a <msg-id> ? > How about the good old term <message-id> as in s-o-1036 ? Where would you use it? Message-ID and References fields are defined in RFC 2822, Likewise for Received and In-Reply-To. Supersedes is defined in RFC 2156. Content-ID is defined in RFC 2045. Don't mess with those definitions -- add restrictions if there's good reason. > True, but updating only its <msg-id> syntax is an option after > this WG is closed. Meanwhile we should use the definition as it is, not as one or two people would like to see it. > > MIME, > > Except from a clear "don't mess with the boundary parameter" > plus some more elaborated security considerations I don't > see what you'd want to update there - okay, fix the errata, > use ABNF while you're at it, and avoid any prose in syntax. *I* don;t want to change it -- you apparently want to screw up the definition of the Content-ID field. > > You have yet (see above) to indicate a specific technical > > problem. > > "Does not work with NNTP" is good enough. What is the specific issue with RFC 977 (NNTP)? > But just for fun > here's another obvious reason found in RfC 2046, please read > also the surrounding text: > > | Aside from these conventions, any use of the control > | characters or DEL in a body must either occur > | > | (1) because a subtype of text other than "plain" > | specifically assigns some additional meaning, or > [... (private convention) ...] That's for the charset parameter of a text media type and pertains to the text media body content. We're discussing header field components. > Many NetNews articles are text/plain US ASCII and routinely > mention some <message-id>s in the body. If it hurts, don't do it. I have no objection to a note (presumably in USEAGE) pointing out the problem (note that body text can be encoded using e.g. quoted-printable). But that would amount to fretting about nothing (see below). > That won't work for > NO-WS-CTL (excl. the conventional HT and FF), it's illegal. See quoted-printable. All of which is academic because while "dtext" syntax allows such things to accommodate future formats, STD 3 and the various IPv6 schemes don't, so it won't happen until and unless some future scheme provides explicitly for it. > Deja-vu, IIRC we already discussed this. > > > Can you accurately predict what future versions of IP > > address literals will look like? > > Yes, it will be a subset of the STD 66 <IPvFuture> syntax. That's one opinion; RFC 3986 pertains to URIs, which is irrelevant to message format header field content except where that content specifically specifies a URI (which is not the case under discussion). It's also hard to take seriously a document that has changed the definition of "reserved" characters as drastically and frequently as the URI specification has. > > there isn't agreement for IPv6 (RFC 2821 "IPv6:" tag, for > > example). > > Sorry, I fail to see any NO-WS-CTL in the string "IPv6:", and > otherwise it's the same as in STD 66 <IPv6address>. The "IPv6:" tag is a crucial difference. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJmgbj090144 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJmgJ6090143 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:48:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJmNBH090076 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3087861B4C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:48:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23759-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:48:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0765961B4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:48:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:18:29 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <87AA0D6AD258638FBE05493B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506270917.15497.blilly@erols.com> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506261847.38167.blilly@erols.com> <F6366B1BDCB6E56FD2E1D5FB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270917.15497.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 27. juni 2005 09:17 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Mon June 27 2005 04:56, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> >> --On 26. juni 2005 18:47 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > >> > The purpose of adding MIME is to acknowledge that MIME RFCs also use >> > the terms "header" (as in MIME-part[ -]header) and "header field". >> >> Uses. Does not define. > > I believe you are mistaken. RFC 2045: Defines "MIME-part-headers", not "header field". The sentence you quote uses the term "header field", it does not define it. The paragraph I'm asking to have inserted in USEFOR talks about the definition of the term "header field". Since nobody else appears interested in this debate, I'll stop responding now. > (2) In a MIME body part header within a multipart > construct. > > The formal definition of these header fields is as follows: > > [...] > MIME-part-headers := entity-headers > [ fields ] > ; Any field not beginning with > ; "content-" can have no defined > ; meaning and may be ignored. > ; The ordering of the header > ; fields implied by this BNF > ; definition should be ignored. > > That says it is a formal definition and is not covered by [2]822. > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJlh8w089897 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJlhdn089896 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJlgV9089878 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:47:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmzSA-0001Wh-0x for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:39:34 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:39:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:39:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:42:21 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 30 Message-ID: <42C0569D.78F5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> <9ZbmC$wHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Kai Henningsen wrote: > the idea goes back at least to RFC 624 (obsoleted by 733, Okay, 733 says 724, let's see: | The uniqueness of the message identifier is guaranteed by | each host. And that <host-name> is the part of an <host-indicator>, which is either "at" or "@" followed by the name, an <atom> or a <decimal-host-address>. > we're debating are implementation techniques and problems, > not the fundamental concept. I'm not convinced that that's the case, Charles repeatedly said that it's no domain (i.e. <host-name> in this old RFC). In <9ZbmCMdHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> (see ?) you said: > I'm for id-right. And that doesn't reflect the fundamental concept <host-name>. <id-right> could be "maybe take some random number + hash + timestamp, don't forget to add an '@' somewhere in the middle". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJYbiH086097 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJYbIU086096 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJYarq086082 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RJYZWe018938 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:35 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 88B0EE7CB1; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:35 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C050DB.9040700@oceana.com> (Ken Murchison's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:17:47 -0400") References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCPEWEXC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42C050DB.9040700@oceana.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:34:35 -0700 Message-ID: <87ekanbnlg.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> writes: > Ned Freed wrote: >> It was the last word from me because basically all I got for my trouble >> was a bunch of (mostly private) hate mail and precious little public >> (or private) support for the idea. > Just out of curiosity, did you ever look at Jeremy Nixon's work on this? > http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/binaries/ > It doesn't include compression, but it does seem to retain backwards > compatibility. I don't really see a lot of point in the compression aspect of this, actually. At least for the Usenet problem, the data is already compressed, and converting to base64 and then compressing seems like a lot of hassle. The real point of yEnc is that it specifies the minimum possible munging of binary data to allow it to be transferred through Usenet. (And probably most mail servers, but that I haven't investigated at all.) As a result, it saves a lot of encoding space without requiring the harder work of switching to a full binary transport. One of the reasons why standardizing that particular good idea has been so hard is that the author of that very solid idea then went on to add a bunch of uuencode-inspired cruft that reinvents MIME multiparts poorly (albeit with a few good ideas that could usefully be added to MIME multiparts), and he was insisting on dragging along all of that cruft in any standardization effort. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJJYw9081706 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJJYuE081705 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJJXrV081698 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0099E29969; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJJUiV010375(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:19:30 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJJTql010374(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:19:29 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:19:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506271519.26481.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 14:23, Ned Freed wrote: > There used to be a document floating around that described some, but not all, > of the UUENCODE variants, but I've long since lost track of it. Maybe http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/uuencode-no.html ? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJI4kU081312 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJI4ET081311 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJI3Xq081274 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@oceana.com) Received: from [192.168.137.140] (69-161-65-27.bflony.adelphia.net [69.161.65.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by eagle.oceana.com (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id j5RJHrsZ010284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42C050DB.9040700@oceana.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:17:47 -0400 From: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040514 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <01LPYCPEWEXC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01LPYCPEWEXC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 (BAYES_00) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ned Freed wrote: > It was the last word from me because basically all I got for my trouble was a > bunch of (mostly private) hate mail and precious little public (or private) > support for the idea. Ned, Just out of curiosity, did you ever look at Jeremy Nixon's work on this? http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/binaries/ It doesn't include compression, but it does seem to retain backwards compatibility. -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJE1qI080115 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJE1Qb080114 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJE0Sc080108 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36D829926; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJDwRs010237(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:58 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJDuvd010236(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:58 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506271513.55016.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 13:12, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > >> AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks > >> to avoid trailing SP or HT. > > > The key here is "AFAIK". [...] > > The problem is that "n" (from your other message) isn't > > specified to be constrained to 998 or less > > For the mentioned "typical values" 128 or 256 I don't see any > problem, The problem is that n = 999, n= 1000, ... n = 99999999999999, ... are permitted. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJ6wFZ076523 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RJ6wDC076522 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RJ6v3J076504 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E4E29948; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJ6qpD010170(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:52 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RJ6pvb010169(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:51 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: NEW: draft language (Was Re: Feedback on proposal) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506271506.47392.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 13:12, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > "conformance with our" specification (it's not a standard). > > We're going for "proposed standard", not "informational" or > "experimental". Maybe BCP for USEAGE. Modulo "with the iESG > you never know". "Not all RFCs are standards". More important "The Internet-Draft should neither state nor imply that it has any standards status; to do so conflicts with the role of the RFC Editor and the IESG." (1id-guidelines). I think I mentioned this before; the draft(s) need to be checked carefully by the Editors (this should already have been done in accordance with the guidelines...). Specifically, the draft contains about a dozen instances of "this standard" (one says "this present standard"), there's a reference to "other standards" (implying that the draft is a standard), a reference to "standard User-Agent", etc. The only occurrence that shouldn't be changed is the one in the IPR boilerplate. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RIdME4051211 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RIdMr4051210 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RIdKVO051187 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmyO7-0003NN-6r for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:31:19 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:31:19 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:31:19 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:32:36 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 95 Message-ID: <42C04644.7485@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251312.37510.blilly@erols.com> <42BEDC17.A05@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> | The Group shall also aid and/or oversee the production >> | of other Usenet related Internet Drafts and Standards. >> That covers NNTP and the two news-nntp-uri drafts. > That's covered by a separate WG. In fact NNTP -27 was approved, 1*248 VCHAR excl. ">" within angle brackets is settled. > The (now past) WG co-chairs clearly indicated our direction: > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Mar/0305.html That article says that USEFOR produces its fourth and final I18N RFC in November 2003. > with our work products to deal only with articles that > conform to 2822 and MIME syntax. Sure, "<" <id-local> "@" <id-domain> ">" or Charles' version are a proper subset of what 2822 / MIME / NNTP say. > N.B. not to *redefine* 2822 or MIME syntax. Now what's that, avoiding <id-left> "@" <id-right> is not good enough, do you maybe want a new term for a <msg-id> ? How about the good old term <message-id> as in s-o-1036 ? > So far nobody has made a convincing case about no-WS-CTLs; > we know that you don't like them, but you haven't given a > technical argument against their use. You probably missed one or two of the several hundreds (?) of articles in the various "msg-id" threads. That point is moot, the proposed standard NNTP -27 has VCHAR excl. ">", and it's not exactly a new concept (1036, 1738, etc.). > There is a separate effort to update URIs. Not our job Obviously Charles and I volunteered after Paul said that he's not more interested. And so it's "our" job to educate these volunteers about our ideas for a <message-id>, it there are any differences from 1036 / 1738 (hint: yes). > we don't have the time or temperament to rewrite 2822 True, but updating only its <msg-id> syntax is an option after this WG is closed. > MIME, Except from a clear "don't mess with the boundary parameter" plus some more elaborated security considerations I don't see what you'd want to update there - okay, fix the errata, use ABNF while you're at it, and avoid any prose in syntax. > You have yet (see above) to indicate a specific technical > problem. "Does not work with NNTP" is good enough. But just for fun here's another obvious reason found in RfC 2046, please read also the surrounding text: | Aside from these conventions, any use of the control | characters or DEL in a body must either occur | | (1) because a subtype of text other than "plain" | specifically assigns some additional meaning, or [... (private convention) ...] Many NetNews articles are text/plain US ASCII and routinely mention some <message-id>s in the body. That won't work for NO-WS-CTL (excl. the conventional HT and FF), it's illegal. Deja-vu, IIRC we already discussed this. > Can you accurately predict what future versions of IP > address literals will look like? Yes, it will be a subset of the STD 66 <IPvFuture> syntax. > there isn't agreement for IPv6 (RFC 2821 "IPv6:" tag, for > example). Sorry, I fail to see any NO-WS-CTL in the string "IPv6:", and otherwise it's the same as in STD 66 <IPv6address>. Another deja-vu, at least Charles and I looked into all these details. Until Alexey said that we better don't try to define all the details of <id-literal> or <no-fold-literal> resp., just the set of allowed characters adding \\, \[, and \] just in case. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RITvkr047522 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RITvv0047521 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RITufc047514 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:29:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-id: <01LPYCZJR3W600004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:23:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:26:00 +0200" <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270801.25782.blilly@erols.com> <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > The problem with both is that there is no satisfactory > > indication of the media type. > Yes, isn't that the idea of application/octet-stream ? > Some binary crap. Actually the same case as UUE in a > plain text part, the only difference, it's not 7bit. > > YEnc is clearly a transfer encoding, not a media type. > If that's "clear" then it would be also "clear" for UUE. Actually, it is clear that uuencode is a CTE. It just isn't a very good one - there are numerous variations, some compatible, others not. Issues include line length, the use or non-use of spaces versus tildes, how incomplete lines are handled, and the format ofd both the begin and end lines. Messages with a CTE of X-UUENCODE were fairly common at one point, as a matter of fact. Similar issues surround the class of 4-in-5 encodings: btoa, base85, and so on. There used to be a document floating around that described some, but not all, of the UUENCODE variants, but I've long since lost track of it. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RILm7h045286 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RILmvj045285 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RILmqa045274 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-id: <01LPYCPEWEXC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:12:30 +0200" <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Bruce Lilly wrote: > >> AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks > >> to avoid trailing SP or HT. > > The key here is "AFAIK". > You can check it at <http://www.yenc.org> - this page starts: > | 02.April.2003: > | A new encoding has been specified by Ned Fried. > | gZip-8Bit is an extension to yEnc with MIME and integrated > | compression. > | The next round in standardization of Binary Usenet messages > | has been started. > I've no idea why that's apparently the last word about yenc. It was the last word from me because basically all I got for my trouble was a bunch of (mostly private) hate mail and precious little public (or private) support for the idea. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RI07ki038852 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RI07W1038851 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RI06HH038844 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RI05p2020822 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:05 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5BC65E7CB0; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:05 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) In-Reply-To: <200506271326.44670.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:42 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> <5A35ADED5607F919CE583014@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506271326.44670.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:00:05 -0700 Message-ID: <87vf3zsmsa.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > o there is some purpose in one "serving agent" sending an Xref field to > another "serving agent"? As I believe I previously mentioned, there is indeed some purpose in one serving agent sending an Xref field to another serving agent, namely Xref slaving. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHTT1G029836 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RHTSuZ029834 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHTSqu029826 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D0429971; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RHQo3J009394(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:50 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RHQmDq009393(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:48 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:26:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> <5A35ADED5607F919CE583014@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <5A35ADED5607F919CE583014@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506271326.44670.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 11:21, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > --On 27. juni 2005 09:31 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > >From the charter: > > > 1. Produce an Internet Draft (or series of drafts) that describes the > > core standards for a Usenet article and the features that all Usenet > > software should take account of. Something seems to be wrong with the attribution... > If you want to argue that Usenet readers are not Usenet software I don't. > Article formats passed in standardized protocols between a client ("posting > agent" or "reading agent") and a server ("injecting agent" and "serving > agent") are within scope. That's nice. Are you suggesting that: o a posting agent should generate and transmit an Xref field? o an injecting agent should generate and transmit an Xref field? o there is some purpose in one "serving agent" sending an Xref field to another "serving agent"? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHRBO7029117 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RHRBTj029116 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHR9FB029089 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmxGu-0005ar-Nr for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:19:48 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:19:48 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:19:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:26:00 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 18 Message-ID: <42C036A8.D45@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270801.25782.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > The problem with both is that there is no satisfactory > indication of the media type. Yes, isn't that the idea of application/octet-stream ? Some binary crap. Actually the same case as UUE in a plain text part, the only difference, it's not 7bit. > YEnc is clearly a transfer encoding, not a media type. If that's "clear" then it would be also "clear" for UUE. The latter isn't the case, your premise is utter dubious. Both are not designed to fit nicely into a MIME framework, no surprise for UUE. But the framework is still capable to transport this crap as is without causing havoc. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHFsgb025972 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RHFsfu025971 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RHFqVp025945 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dmx6G-00034v-31 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:08:48 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:08:48 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:08:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:12:30 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 57 Message-ID: <42C0337E.4C3E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks >> to avoid trailing SP or HT. > The key here is "AFAIK". You can check it at <http://www.yenc.org> - this page starts: | 02.April.2003: | A new encoding has been specified by Ned Fried. | gZip-8Bit is an extension to yEnc with MIME and integrated | compression. | The next round in standardization of Binary Usenet messages | has been started. I've no idea why that's apparently the last word about yenc. > The problem is that "n" (from your other message) isn't > specified to be constrained to 998 or less For the mentioned "typical values" 128 or 256 I don't see any problem, apparently any "n" up to 997 goes (they don't allow to split an escaped NUL, HT, CR, LF, SP, or "=" by CRLF, and so they need "n+1" for such cases), > not formally specified in a stable specification suitable as > the basis for an IETF encoding Yes, I'm guessing what it means. OTOH this part of yenc is simple and clear enough to get it right for NNTP. But when they start with =ybegin, multiple parts, and Subject tags I'm not more interested, after all I'm not planning to implement it. JFTR, I also don't plan to implement message/partial. But I have an application claiming to create or at lest read yenc (among others like UUE and XXE). Not message/partial - I've never seen any message/partial, whatever that means, it could be because I rarely look into binary groups, not once for at least 20 months. > the proponents of yEnc seem to be unwilling to standardize > the specification in the IETF (as noted by several people) <shrug /> If Steve really wants it he's free to try it, my interest is limited to the question of our various MUSTs, and to a certain degree to MIME itself. In your 822-discussion limited to the one case _without_ gzip. > "conformance with our" specification (it's not a standard). We're going for "proposed standard", not "informational" or "experimental". Maybe BCP for USEAGE. Modulo "with the iESG you never know". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGtk9p020553 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGtks4020552 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGtjZ8020537 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:55:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5RGtgF1019723; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5RGtgXT019722; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <87br5ru4ps.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627125313.19183B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > ...Most > > plain-text articles on Usenet today do not have MIME-Version headers... > > I haven't run more complete statistics, but assuming that my randomly > chosen text newsgroup is indeed a decent random sample, this is > interestingly not the case. Around 60% of articles had a MIME-Version > header. I ran a quick check in a couple of groups I follow regularly, and got numbers broadly agreeing with that. I'm surprised; I hadn't thought it was that high yet. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGlTUl018378 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGlT0C018377 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGlS7Q018370 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RGlS3H028808 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:28 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0326BE7CB0; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:28 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> (Henry Spencer's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:33:14 -0400 (EDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:47:27 -0700 Message-ID: <87br5ru4ps.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: > As you've been told repeatedly, just because a client is MIME-capable > doesn't mean that it insists on handling only MIME messages. Most > plain-text articles on Usenet today do not have MIME-Version headers. A > Usenet client which ignored any article lacking a MIME-Version header > would be useless. I haven't run more complete statistics, but assuming that my randomly chosen text newsgroup is indeed a decent random sample, this is interestingly not the case. Around 60% of articles had a MIME-Version header. I'd have to do more work to see if this applies across the rest of the text Usenet. (The rest of your point, of course, I agree with completely.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGXIbM015272 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGXI38015271 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGXHoq015265 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5RGXEF1019445; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5RGXEfJ019444; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:33:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627120427.19183A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > The percentage, which is greater than 65% and growing, of > non-conformance is too large to just be ignored. It is not in > the best interest of Usenet to write a standard that software > client developers can not conform to even if they would like to. All other issues aside, there is simply no way we can standardize the yenc stuff without cooperation and participation from the community that uses it... and as others have noted, in the past that community has been conspicuously uninterested. This isn't "65% and growing" of Usenet; this is, for all practical purposes, a separate network which happens to use a few of the same protocols and some of the same servers. > Is this group trying to writing something that standardizes on > existing practices or is it trying to re-invent a whole new > protocol. We're trying to standardize existing practices, specifically the ones derived from the earlier quasi-standards for news, notably RFC 1036. There is a limit to what we can include under that umbrella; the yenc people have, to put it bluntly, gone their own way with complete disregard for standards. There is every reason to believe that they will continue to do so, and in that context, contorting standards to accommodate them appears rather pointless. > The non-binary focused clients would support mime because it > works well for text and the binary focused clients most likely > would not implement a full MIME parser. The mime clients should > be looking for the header MIME-Version anyway and they could > ignore articles without it. As you've been told repeatedly, just because a client is MIME-capable doesn't mean that it insists on handling only MIME messages. Most plain-text articles on Usenet today do not have MIME-Version headers. A Usenet client which ignored any article lacking a MIME-Version header would be useless. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGWUrY014945 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGWUKZ014943 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGWSan014924 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmwQ1-00022F-4J for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:25:09 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.72]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:25:09 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:25:09 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:28:09 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 35 Message-ID: <42C02919.2BB8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627105734.18065B-100000@spsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-72.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > How many times do I have to say "non-standard"? :-) Until you've submitted s-o-1036 as FYI... <gd&r> Joke off, from my POV non-standard is the gap between SHOULD and MUST. But violating a MUST is not only "non-standard", it's broken and known to be harmful in some cases. Not all cases, that would be OBVIOUS, and OBVIOUS is a 2119-keyword that MUST NOT be used - consequently it's not mentioned in 2119. Unfortunately Bruce's keywords are slightly different, SHOULD is a "mere recommendation", MUST is important, and violating a MUST is a real problem if the brown shirts get you. Otherwise it's probably "let's see what happens". No surprise that we have serious difficulties to come to a common understanding of what "UAs MUST conform to RfC 2049 and MUST support RfC 2231" actually means. From my POV it's perfectly sane to reject articles if they use 8bit without MIME. It's the idea of saying MUST instead of SHOULD. From your or Bruce's POV this MUST apparently works like a SHOULD in my terminology, if it's broken you own the pieces, no other consequences. This includes many fine points like "no justification to reject or clean such articles", "no valid reason for an abuse report", etc. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGRbuB013762 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGRbi1013761 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGRaWF013755 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RGRaCX022718 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 04551E7CB0; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) In-Reply-To: <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:14 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> <C28C10FC514BCC0EDB27CA14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <87k6kfu5mw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > I did quote the corresponding text from RFC 1036 at the very beginning of > the discussion. I repeat it for convenience: > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. > Now many of us would agree that 1036 is somewhat vague, but that specific > text in 1036 obviously hasn't prevented a particular (NNTP) server from > communicating cross-reference information to its clients, nor would the > suggested text for usefor. Mostly because everyone ignored that part of RFC 1036. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGPdiA013335 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGPdtl013334 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGPcAM013328 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5RGPbil022116 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:37 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3387EE7CB0; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:37 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BFC1D0.4FA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:07:28 +0200") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BFC1D0.4FA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87oe9ru5q7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> and yEnc breaks the line length requirement. > I'm not sure, seen in file YENC_1_3.TXT (2002-07-22 on my box): > | To facilitate transmission via existing standard protocols > | (most notably NNTP), carriage return/linefeed pairs should be > | written to the output stream after every n characters, where > | n is the desired line length. Typical values for n are 128 > | and 256. > That's smaller than 998. So it should be okay for 8bit MIME, > although anything else is more like UUE than MIME. Bye, Frank Oh, hm, that's interesting. I hadn't realized that was in there (maybe it's a change from the original protocol?). That would seem to indicate you could get away with content-type application/x-yenc, CTE: 8bit if you really wanted to (and as I recall, yEnc includes a variety of other data besides the actual message, in an attempt to -- poorly -- duplicate MIME multipart features, so it's arguably not purely a CTE either). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGJagf011954 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGJa80011953 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGJZOS011947 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BABD13A77A for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5RGJZ306673; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506271619.j5RGJZ306673@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> (message from Steve Walker on Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:52:29 -0500) Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> wrote: > The percentage, which is greater than 65% and growing, of > non-conformance is too large to just be ignored. Where are you getting that number? Are you including plaintext articles that have only ASCII characters and lack MIME headers? Those _are_ valid MIME. > Is this group trying to writing something that standardizes on > existing practices or is it trying to re-invent a whole new > protocol. It's trying to standardize those existing practices which can be standardized. Apparently yEnc can't be; at least, the efforts so far have failed, and this is the wrong group to work on standardizing yEnc anyway, for any number of reasons. If you want us to point to a yEnc standard in addition to the MIME standard, show us the one to point to. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RGCtZ2010550 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RGCtos010548 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5RGCriH010503 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mail@sebastian-brocks.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 Jun 2005 16:12:47 -0000 Received: from xdsl-81-173-137-237.netcologne.de (EHLO [192.168.1.2]) [81.173.137.237] by mail.gmx.net (mp005) with SMTP; 27 Jun 2005 18:12:47 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1840277 Message-ID: <42C02586.9040709@sebastian-brocks.de> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:12:54 +0200 From: Sebastian Brocks <mail@sebastian-brocks.de> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de-DE; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050404 Thunderbird/1.0.2 Mnenhy/0.7.2.0 X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Walker schrieb: > The mime clients should > be looking for the header MIME-Version anyway and they could > ignore articles without it. No they could not ignore articles without it, those articles are just as valid as MIME articles if they do not contain 8 Bit Characters. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCwCWEPlwI4sEdWTARAgfpAKC6eTRl3eC10pxrsx+m3cwQ8Tlf8gCghgsh L4G8anWWowi5Y7MbSz9/Dbs= =rDbI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG9cql009781 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:09:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RG9cEw009780 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RG9bL7009765 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A7861B4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21178-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA9361AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:21:57 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) Message-ID: <5A35ADED5607F919CE583014@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> <C28C10FC514BCC0EDB27CA14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 27. juni 2005 09:31 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > Now many of us would agree that 1036 is somewhat vague, but that specific > text in 1036 obviously hasn't prevented a particular (NNTP) server from > communicating cross-reference information to its clients, nor would the > suggested text for usefor. Indeed, such issues are outside of the scope > of our work. The scope of our work does include transmission of message > (article) content from one "site" (used but not defined in the draft) or > "server" (ditto) to another. Now, that's a surprising idea.... >From the charter: > 1. Produce an Internet Draft (or series of drafts) that describes the > core standards for a Usenet article and the features that all Usenet > software should take account of. If you want to argue that Usenet readers are not Usenet software, and therefore what goes on between the reader and the server (or "agent" as the I'm sure that it would make our work simpler, but in this case, I'm pretty sure you're not reflecting a consensus view. Article formats passed in standardized protocols between a client ("posting agent" or "reading agent") and a server ("injecting agent" and "serving agent") are within scope. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFlhPZ005737 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RFlhs4005736 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RFlfSG005729 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 22016780 for multiple; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:47:38 -0500 Message-ID: <42C020BD.6030801@nntpserver.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:52:29 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > No, there are no IETF brown shirts forcing conformance at gunpoint. > No matter what we say (given the constraint that what we say has to > pass IESG muster), there will be non-conforming software. Our task > is to specify format, protocol, and best practice for those who wish > to build conforming implementations. The percentage, which is greater than 65% and growing, of non-conformance is too large to just be ignored. It is not in the best interest of Usenet to write a standard that software client developers can not conform to even if they would like to. Is this group trying to writing something that standardizes on existing practices or is it trying to re-invent a whole new protocol. In that case, a proposal for Usenet-Version: 2.0 is in order and you would not have to keep backward compatibility. > 2.3 MIME Conformance > > User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME-conformance in [RFC2049] > and MUST also support [RFC2231]. This level of MIME Conformance > provides support for internationalization and multimedia in message > bodies ([RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2231]), and support for > internationalization of headers ([RFC2047], [RFC2231]). Note that > [Errata] currently exist for [RFC2046] and [RFC2231]. Would changing the above to the following harm anything? User agents SHOULD meet the definition of MIME-conformance in [RFC2049] and SHOULD also support [RFC2231]. The non-binary focused clients would support mime because it works well for text and the binary focused clients most likely would not implement a full MIME parser. The mime clients should be looking for the header MIME-Version anyway and they could ignore articles without it. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RF8UHG097586 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RF8UcO097585 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RF8R7O097569 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5RF8PF1018679; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5RF8O2R018678; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:08:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050627105734.18065B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > The passages you note cover only articles containing > > non-ASCII text. > > Yes, AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus... Correct. I was speaking more generally, not of the specific question of reconciling yenc with MIME. > >> how should it post this stuff ? > > Non-standardly. Here, I was discussing software support for > > conventions, not standards conformance > > That's not allowed in usefor-0?, all UAs MUST follow RfC 2049... How many times do I have to say "non-standard"? :-) Here I was talking about what is technologically possible, not what is standard-compliant. > > Clients can have non-standard modes as well as standard ones > > Then they'd need a SHOULD instead of a MUST in usefor to _post_ > such articles. If they're in a non-standard mode, what's in Usefor is irrelevant. Standards cannot dictate what happens when the standard is not followed. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5REsDck094133 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5REsD9Y094132 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5REsCbE094116 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Message-id: <01LPY5G1W1J400004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:15:39 -0400" <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > On Mon June 27 2005 04:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Yes, AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks > > to avoid trailing SP or HT. > The key here is "AFAIK". The problem is that "n" (from your other > message) isn't specified to be constrained to 998 or less, and in > any event is not formally specified in a stable specification > suitable as the basis for an IETF encoding. That has led to > interoperability problems (as noted by Russ), and the proponents > of yEnc seem to be unwilling to standardize the specification in > the IETF (as noted by several people). Bingo. And in this discussion we now have a proposal to identify this stuff with either 'Content-type: raw/subtype' or 'NNTP-Format: raw/subtype' label and a refusal to consider using a CTE. The problems with both are obvious and don't bear repeating. I give up. It is clear that there's no real interest in moving forward on this in a way that's compatible with existing standards. So, if any proposals for additional CTEs move forward, they won't do so as part of an attempt to bridge this gap in usenet, but rather based solely on their own merit. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDVSQD074877 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RDVSNe074876 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDVSQv074864 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5801F29920; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDVQG1006286(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:26 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDVOX3006285(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:25 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:31:14 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> <C28C10FC514BCC0EDB27CA14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <C28C10FC514BCC0EDB27CA14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506270931.15470.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 05:07, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > usefor-04 does not contain a definition of "system". OK. > In fact the word is used in 2 different senses: "a system" (something that > passes articles) and "the news system". > > Unusually for you, you're using controversial terms without defining them > first. I did quote the corresponding text from RFC 1036 at the very beginning of the discussion. I repeat it for convenience: This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be transmitted. Now many of us would agree that 1036 is somewhat vague, but that specific text in 1036 obviously hasn't prevented a particular (NNTP) server from communicating cross-reference information to its clients, nor would the suggested text for usefor. Indeed, such issues are outside of the scope of our work. The scope of our work does include transmission of message (article) content from one "site" (used but not defined in the draft) or "server" (ditto) to another. Given the context of the discussion (viz. Xref field), it should be clear that the issue is related to the field body component server-name = path-identity So it appears that the usefor draft does not contain a suitably defined term. That's another new issue. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDHMfq067056 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:17:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RDHMD2067054 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:17:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDHLSp067042 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09FA2993C; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDHJYd006174(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:17:19 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDHICZ006173(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:17:19 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:17:14 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506261847.38167.blilly@erols.com> <F6366B1BDCB6E56FD2E1D5FB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <F6366B1BDCB6E56FD2E1D5FB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506270917.15497.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 04:56, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > --On 26. juni 2005 18:47 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > The purpose of adding MIME is to acknowledge that MIME RFCs also use the > > terms "header" (as in MIME-part[ -]header) and "header field". > > Uses. Does not define. I believe you are mistaken. RFC 2045: (2) In a MIME body part header within a multipart construct. The formal definition of these header fields is as follows: [...] MIME-part-headers := entity-headers [ fields ] ; Any field not beginning with ; "content-" can have no defined ; meaning and may be ignored. ; The ordering of the header ; fields implied by this BNF ; definition should be ignored. That says it is a formal definition and is not covered by [2]822. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDDOY9064892 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RDDOY5064891 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:13:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RDDLpr064863 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827FB29915; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDDHsC006082(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:13:17 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RDDFE4006081(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:13:16 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:13:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506251312.37510.blilly@erols.com> <42BEDC17.A05@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BEDC17.A05@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506270913.10316.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sun June 26 2005 12:47, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > > The WG charter gives no authorization to modify RFC 2822. > [...] > | The Group shall also aid and/or oversee the production of > | other Usenet related Internet Drafts and Standards. > > That covers NNTP and the two news-nntp-uri drafts. That's covered by a separate WG. Note also that the charter hasn't been substantively updated in years, even after a specific call to recharter (which resulted in the addition of a note at the top claiming that "a charter rewrite/update is underway" and some milestones (including Apr 05 recharter or conclude) at the bottom. The (now past) WG co-chairs clearly indicated our direction: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Mar/0305.html with our work products to deal only with articles that conform to 2822 and MIME syntax. N.B. not to *redefine* 2822 or MIME syntax. > > o CID and MID URIs (RFC 2392) seem to work fine. > > That's essentially a percent-encoded RfC 822 <addr-spec>, and > we already know that we don't want WSP, NO-WS-CTL, or comments > in a <msg-id>. Not one of the RfC 2392 examples discusses or > uses such constructs, it's about %25 for % etc. in URLs based > on RfC 1738. 1. 2822 obsoletes 822 and forbids CFWS. So far nobody has made a convincing case about no-WS-CTLs; we know that you don't like them, but you haven't given a technical argument against their use. 2. There is a separate effort to update URIs. Not our job, and we don't have the time or temperament to rewrite 2822, MIME, and RFC 2392; we way behind schedule on getting the first of two Standards Track documents done. > > o there are mechanisms other than syntax changes (e.g. > > implementation notes) to address specific issues. > > If we don't get the <msg-id> [...] syntax right > this WG should be dissolved. Intentionally hiding this syntax > problem in prose is cowardly and no option. 1. You have yet (see above) to indicate a specific technical problem. 2. msg-id (and date-time and zone) are defined in RFC 2822 and are used in a number of standardized fields (Message-ID, References, In-Reply-To, and Superseded for msg-id, Date, Received, Resent-Date for date-time and zone). Conflicting syntax definitions are unsatisfactory: a. They are a problem for implementers of combined mail/news UAs b. They are a problem for implementers of Standards Track protocols that handle messages of all sorts (e.g. IMAP) c. Conflicting syntax of field components (msg-id, date-time, zone) affect fields which this WG has no authority over (i.e. those mentioned above d. It affects other applications based on the Internet Message Format (voice mail, fax, EDI, etc.) e. It affects other Standards Track protocols based on the field components defined in [2]822 (e.g. MIME Content-ID, HTTP, SIP). We can, without causing conflict and remaining within the bounds established in "the plan of action" provide suitable implementation notes adding specific restrictions based on technical issues as suggested in detail by Mark Crispin. We are also free to define whatever separate syntax we desire for news-specific fields such as Injection-Date. > | A word about non-whitespace controls, since there seems to > | be some confusion: aside from appearance in qtext and ctext, > | they also appear in the 2822 grammar for dtext. The reason > | for that as I understand it (private correspondence with > | Pete Resnick) is that at the time, IDN had not been fleshed > | out, and the provision is to accommodate possible schemes. > | Of course at the present time, a domain name, including IDN, > | consists solely of letters, digits, and hyphens plus > | separating dots. So while the syntax has provision for > | NO-WS-CTLS in dtext, those won't actually occur because of > | restrictions in other specifications (notably RFCs 1034, 1035). > > Your communication with the [MESSFOR] author is not good enough > for a future <id-domain>. Can you accurately predict what future versions of IP address literals will look like? Heck, there isn't agreement for IPv6 (RFC 2821 "IPv6:" tag, for example). > And this dtext problem hits also the > <General-address-literal> in RfC 2821. It is _our_ job, if we > don't get the <msg-id> right this WG has absolutely no business > to mess with NetNews at all. You are free to suggest addition of a (redundant) note pointing out that at this time IPv4 address literals are limited to dotted decimal quads as specified in STD 3. You can add, if you wish, that there is no single agreed-upon way to represent IPv6 address literals. > > o NNTP and URIs are handled by other groups. > > See the WG Charter quoted above. State of the art in nntp -27: This WG doesn't have a "nntp -27". [...] > > Wording: "fixed" implies that something is "broken" > > Yes, and the least common denominators are printable (syntax) > and a domain allowing for a domain-literal as RHS (semantics). RFC 2822 msg-id permits all of that. If you have a specific case of a standards-compliant external protocol issue that adds some restriction, please specify it along the lines suggested by Mark Crispin. We can't rewrite 2822. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RCFjeB035696 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RCFjYR035695 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RCFjqN035686 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A373629939; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RCFhH0005666(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:15:43 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RCFg16005665(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:15:43 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:15:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506270815.40389.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 27 2005 04:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Yes, AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks > to avoid trailing SP or HT. The key here is "AFAIK". The problem is that "n" (from your other message) isn't specified to be constrained to 998 or less, and in any event is not formally specified in a stable specification suitable as the basis for an IETF encoding. That has led to interoperability problems (as noted by Russ), and the proponents of yEnc seem to be unwilling to standardize the specification in the IETF (as noted by several people). > OTOH it's also not really binary, it's some kind of 8bit. iff n <= 998 > >> how should it post this stuff ? > > > Non-standardly. Here, I was discussing software support for > > conventions, not standards conformance > > That's not allowed in usefor-0?, all UAs MUST follow RfC 2049, > and 2049 says "post either MIME or ASCII". That's what Steve > was talking about, conformance with our standard includes this > one MUST. N.B. "conformance with our" specification (it's not a standard). > > Clients can have non-standard modes as well as standard ones > > Then they'd need a SHOULD instead of a MUST in usefor to _post_ > such articles. Bye, Frank No, there are no IETF brown shirts forcing conformance at gunpoint. No matter what we say (given the constraint that what we say has to pass IESG muster), there will be non-conforming software. Our task is to specify format, protocol, and best practice for those who wish to build conforming implementations. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RC1vvu028510 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5RC1v9s028508 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5RC1t8l028494 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B454829939; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RC1q0v005572(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:01:52 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5RC1muT005568(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:01:49 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:01:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506270801.25782.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sun June 26 2005 22:40, Frank Ellermann wrote: > How about this: > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/x-yenc; charset=unknown-8bit (RfC 1428) > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [...] > Or why not this: > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: application/x-text-with-yenc > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The problem with both is that there is no satisfactory indication of the media type. In the first case, you're claiming the the unencoded content is text of some sort. In the second, you're claiming application data. In practice, yEnc is used for image, video, and audio media, possibly also application data; I doubt that is has been used for text. The idea (granted, not 100% clear from the specifications) is that a MIME media type identifies what the (unencoded) content is, and Content-Transfer-Encoding identifies two things: 1. An encoding method (possibly an "identity" encoding) 2. The characteristics ("domain" in RFC 2045) of the encoded data (7bit, 8bit, binary). YEnc is clearly a transfer encoding, not a media type. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9I3GB054004 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R9I3K2054003 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:18:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9I2jq053973 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmpdK-0007oi-2R for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:10:26 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:10:26 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:10:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:07:28 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42BFC1D0.4FA5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > you can't use CTE 8bit for yEnc data. RFC 2045 says: > "8bit data" refers to data that is all represented as > relatively short lines with 998 octets or less between > CRLF line separation sequences [RFC-821]), but octets > with decimal values greater than 127 may be used. As > with "7bit data" CR and LF octets only occur as part > of CRLF line separation sequences and no NULs are allowed. > and yEnc breaks the line length requirement. I'm not sure, seen in file YENC_1_3.TXT (2002-07-22 on my box): | To facilitate transmission via existing standard protocols | (most notably NNTP), carriage return/linefeed pairs should be | written to the output stream after every n characters, where | n is the desired line length. Typical values for n are 128 | and 256. That's smaller than 998. So it should be okay for 8bit MIME, although anything else is more like UUE than MIME. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FL49052782 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R9FLBT052781 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FKG8052761 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B520661B4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16438-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2DB61B4C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:07:58 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: "System" (Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport) Message-ID: <C28C10FC514BCC0EDB27CA14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <42BDB95B.4000406@mibsoftware.com> <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 25. juni 2005 18:55 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> So the wording "of use to a local system" is not accurate. Consider >> what you are proposing: clients cannot be expected to grab a message by >> ID, and then only have a newsgroups header to go on. > > For clarification, as there seems to be continued confusion, the proposal > has been carefully considered; "local system" refers to a server *and* > its clients. Bruce, usefor-04 does not contain a definition of "system". In fact the word is used in 2 different senses: "a system" (something that passes articles) and "the news system". Unusually for you, you're using controversial terms without defining them first. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FKBn052760 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R9FKZp052759 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FJ7I052745 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9700461B5C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16540-05 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4E361B4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:58:43 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1050: USEFOR 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Message-ID: <13E565452DABA9148FACA323@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ticket #1050 created. Based on the following discussion, I have put it into state "no change needed". --On 25. juni 2005 11:14 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: > > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. > > There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. Best > current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a separate > database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the article > header. I therefore propose that the following text (subject to > discussion of course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: > > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. > > That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro > document, text similar to the following could appear there: > > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FIbK052740 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R9FILf052739 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9FHtk052727 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD0E61B5C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16438-06 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D3E61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:56:47 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <F6366B1BDCB6E56FD2E1D5FB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506261847.38167.blilly@erols.com> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> <200506261847.38167.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 26. juni 2005 18:47 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Sun June 26 2005 15:28, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> I thought I was making a note that concerned only the use of the term >> "header", while your suggestion of adding MIME to the mix seems >> appropriate if the purpose of the note was to say that we were going to >> use all the terminology from MIME and RFC 2822 (and others). > > The purpose of adding MIME is to acknowledge that MIME RFCs also use the > terms "header" (as in MIME-part[ -]header) and "header field". Uses. Does not define. And (naturally) refers to RFC 822, not 2822. RFC 2045 section 1: All of the header fields defined in this document are subject to the general syntactic rules for header fields specified in RFC 822. In particular, all of these header fields except for Content-Disposition can include RFC 822 comments, which have no semantic content and should be ignored during MIME processing. We're dealing with definitions here. We should just refer to 2822. Your argument has been made. Unless others strongly wish to support the inclusion, this change will not be made. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9CIlK051483 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R9CIWi051482 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R9CG4j051462 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmpXE-0005w0-Be for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:04:08 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:04:08 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:04:08 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:50:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42BFBDD9.748E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > The passages you note cover only articles containing > non-ASCII text. Yes, AFAIK yenc is 8bit minus NUL, CR, LF, and optional tricks to avoid trailing SP or HT. All octects %x01..%xFF reserving CRLF for line ends, and using "=" as an escape character. So that's certainly not 7bit or ASCII, whatever else it might be. OTOH it's also not really binary, it's some kind of 8bit. >> how should it post this stuff ? > Non-standardly. Here, I was discussing software support for > conventions, not standards conformance That's not allowed in usefor-0?, all UAs MUST follow RfC 2049, and 2049 says "post either MIME or ASCII". That's what Steve was talking about, conformance with our standard includes this one MUST. > Clients can have non-standard modes as well as standard ones Then they'd need a SHOULD instead of a MUST in usefor to _post_ such articles. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R40nC3015689 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R40nb0015688 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R40l6p015678 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5R40OF1011234; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5R40OYw011233; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:00:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626234804.11047A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > There's nothing which requires a MIME-supporting client to > > use MIME in all articles posted through it. > > There is, see 2049... The passages you note cover only articles containing non-ASCII text. Nothing compels MIME use for articles containing only ASCII characters (possibly as a result of using higher-level conventions to encode non-ASCII material in ASCII). > > just because a client supports MIME doesn't mean it can't > > support other conventions as well. > > For UUE and other variations of 7bit no problem, but for any > 8bit conventions, how should it post this stuff ? Non-standardly. Here, I was discussing software support for conventions, not standards conformance, refuting the bizarre contention that a client which supports MIME couldn't possibly support any alternative. Clients can have non-standard modes as well as standard ones; the non-standard modes might even be the defaults. This is arguably a Bad Thing, but it is unquestionably possible. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R3DPWw009065 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R3DP2a009064 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:13:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R3DO2i009058 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dmjwq-0005Tg-C5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:06:12 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:06:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:06:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:12:22 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 30 Message-ID: <42BF6E96.7757@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626134022.3555A-100000@spsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > There's nothing which requires a MIME-supporting client to > use MIME in all articles posted through it. There is, see 2049: | (8) Conformant user agents are required, if they provide | non-standard support for non-MIME messages employing | character sets other than US-ASCII, to do so on | received messages only. Conforming user agents must not | send non-MIME messages containing anything other than | US-ASCII text. | In particular, the use of non-US-ASCII text in mail | messages without a MIME-Version field is strongly | discouraged as it impedes interoperability when sending | messages between regions with different localization | conventions. Conforming user agents MUST include proper | MIME labelling when sending anything other than plain | text in the US-ASCII character set. Steve got us, both MUST in usefor-04 (2.3) are utter dubious. > just because a client supports MIME doesn't mean it can't > support other conventions as well. For UUE and other variations of 7bit no problem, but for any 8bit conventions, how should it post this stuff ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R2xedW007164 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R2xe2M007163 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R2xeoD007157 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5R2xdWJ026290 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:39 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E3A82E7CB0; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:38 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:40:05 +0200") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <87u0jksdwl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > How about this: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/x-yenc; charset=unknown-8bit (RfC 1428) > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > If I understand RfC 2046 correctly that should have a similar > effect like application/octet-stream for any newsreader not > knowing what to do with it, see "4.1.4 Unrecognized Subtypes". Actually, I believe that: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/x-yenc Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-yenc does pretty much what you would want from the perspective of a MIME client that doesn't understand yEnc. The unrecognized CTE pretty much tells everything "hands off" in a particularly thorough manner. RFC 2045: Implementors may, if necessary, define private Content-Transfer- Encoding values, but must use an x-token, which is a name prefixed by "X-", to indicate its non-standard status, e.g., "Content-Transfer- Encoding: x-my-new-encoding". [...] Unlike media types and subtypes, the creation of new Content- Transfer-Encoding values is STRONGLY discouraged, as it seems likely to hinder interoperability with little potential benefit [...] Any entity with an unrecognized Content-Transfer-Encoding must be treated as if it has a Content-Type of "application/octet-stream", regardless of what the Content-Type header field actually says. The only thing it doesn't do is help a MIME client actually understand the body as opposed to realize that it can't deal with it. Structurally, yEnc is actually a multipart, but since it doesn't use MIME bounaries, one can't tag it that way. (Not to mention that multiparts aren't allowed to use other CTEs.) Anyway, you can't use CTE 8bit for yEnc data. RFC 2045 says: "8bit data" refers to data that is all represented as relatively short lines with 998 octets or less between CRLF line separation sequences [RFC-821]), but octets with decimal values greater than 127 may be used. As with "7bit data" CR and LF octets only occur as part of CRLF line separation sequences and no NULs are allowed. and yEnc breaks the line length requirement. The only already-defined CTE you can use for yEnc data is binary, which of course NNTP and most news software can't handle since it requires nul-cleanliness and places no special meaning on CR and LF. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R2g6V9004977 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R2g6TD004976 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:42:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R2g5wo004962 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:42:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmjSW-0001SW-5c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:34:52 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:34:52 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:34:52 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:40:05 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 40 Message-ID: <42BF6705.3918@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker wrote: > Some form of meta data is needed to officially separate the > MIME articles from the 5 million non-MIME articles that > arrive every day. How about this: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/x-yenc; charset=unknown-8bit (RfC 1428) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I understand RfC 2046 correctly that should have a similar effect like application/octet-stream for any newsreader not knowing what to do with it, see "4.1.4 Unrecognized Subtypes". Or why not this: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/x-text-with-yenc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > If you push a standard that says everything must be mime > and 85% of articles are non-mime there will be problems. If adding one of the above header-blocks is asking too much from these UAs, then they'll be treated as "non-conformant" violating the first MUST in usefor-04 section 2.3 It also says "MUST support 2231" - I'm 100% sure that my UA doesn't support 2231. Or to say it more clearly, I very much doubt that even ONE user-agent supporting all 2231-oddities in a MIME boundary parameter exists. Now that asks for a new ticket, the minimal MIME conformance is defined in 2049, and a "MUST support 2231" rendering precisely ALL (= my guess) UAs as non-conformant is obviously wrong. At best it can be a SHOULD. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R1SOt5092364 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R1SOJp092363 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:28:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R1SNrL092357 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA409DA1B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5R1SNG20646; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506270128.j5R1SNG20646@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> (message from Steve Walker on Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:43 -0500) Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> wrote: > I'd also like to point out that no one person here has commented > on the suggestion of requiring article numbers to be 64 bit. OK, I'll comment on it. What's an "article number"? Is that some local thing that different sites do differently and nobody non-local needs to care about? Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R0O5PQ080923 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:24:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R0O5jM080922 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R0O4kH080910 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21991166 for multiple; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:24:03 -0500 Message-ID: <42BF48AC.8060102@nntpserver.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:30:36 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kai Henningsen <kaih@khms.westfalen.de> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> <42BC530A.5050700@nntpserver.com> <9ZbmDPtHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <9ZbmDPtHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Kai Henningsen wrote: > As far as I'm concerned - and I expect I'm not representing any kind of > majority here - binary traffic is a completely uninteresting part of > Usenet. In fact, my position may be better characterized by saying that > binary traffic isn't part of Usenet, at least in general. I can understand someone not liking the expenses involved in running a news server due to the traffic caused by binaries. I can also understand someone not liking what someone posts, be it binary or text. But I can't imagine how anyone could say that a binary article is not Usenet. If one person shares a written story and another shares an audio book of the same story, what makes one Usenet and the other not? Is it the size of the article or the file type? Or is it the person? Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R0BTnX078517 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5R0BTAq078516 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5R0BPXq078501 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21990949 for multiple; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:11:25 -0500 Message-ID: <42BF45B5.5020606@nntpserver.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:17:57 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> CC: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net>, Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ned Freed wrote: > The use of media types to identify encodings is specifically prohibited. > This > is a transfer encoding, not a media type. I was not referring to an official MIME type at all. I was suggesting a new header that signifies the following body is not MIME. If Content-type is too much like MIME then use something else like NNTP-Format. Some form of meta data is needed to officially separate the MIME articles from the 5 million non-MIME articles that arrive every day. If you push a standard that says everything must be mime and 85% of articles are non-mime there will be problems. If people expect non-mime articles they will write better software. Steve Walker NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QMln5Z062812 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QMlnZq062811 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:47:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QMlmJ5062805 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C8D29914; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5QMliCG016705(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:47:44 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5QMlfa8016704(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:47:43 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:47:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> In-Reply-To: <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506261847.38167.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sun June 26 2005 15:28, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I thought I was making a note that concerned only the use of the term > "header", while your suggestion of adding MIME to the mix seems appropriate > if the purpose of the note was to say that we were going to use all the > terminology from MIME and RFC 2822 (and others). The purpose of adding MIME is to acknowledge that MIME RFCs also use the terms "header" (as in MIME-part[ -]header) and "header field". Usefor draft -04 also refers to MIME fields in section 2.3 and 3.2. There are differences between a message header and a MIME-part header, and the two sets of RFCs are disjoint (I have already pointed out 2822s "out of scope" text; RFC 2045 says "these documents are largely orthogonal to [...] RFC 822"). I don't know that we're going to use *all* of the MIME terminology, but we certainly do refer to: o "the character set for headers [...] MIME mechanisms" o "MIME conformance [...] internationalization of headers" o "MIME extension headers" o "The MIME headers MIME-Version [...]" o "MIME message and multipart parts" o "[...] headers and bodies [...] using MIME mechanisms" RFC 2047 specifically (sect. 5) pertains to MIME-part (therein called "body part") header fields. MIME extension fields by RFC 2045 rules begin with "Content-" and are specifically permitted in a MIME-part header (indeed, only those fields explicitly have meaning there; RFC 2046 sect. 5.1). MIME-part headers of course appear in what is considered an RFC 822/2822 body. So specifically related to use of the terms "header" and "header field", we do use (directly and indirectly) the relevant MIME terms as they relate to MIME-part headers. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLvoWr054252 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QLvoR5054250 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from prosecco.oryx.com (host-140-171-019-217.trish.de [217.19.171.140] (may be forged)) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLvnep054238; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Message-Id: <tEZMByYtvCY3VpLOSWQhAQ.md5@prosecco.oryx.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:56:23 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: ietf-822@imc.org Subject: Re: gzip/deflate compression/encoding Cc: Dan Kohn <dan@dankohn.com>, Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com>, Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <200506250959.02948.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506250959.02948.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> IMNSHO, a protocol extension will succeed only if implementing it brings value to the user. If implementing e.g the SMTP MUMBLE extension doesn't benefit either the implementor or the user, and does benefit someone else greatly, then that extension isn't going to be implemented very much. I may be wrong, of course. But let's suppose I'm right. In that case: 1. Mobile MUAs get considerable benefit from compressing messages as they go from/to the server, so an SMTP/POP/IMAP extension to provide compression for all messages or all attachments ought to be fairly widely implemented by authors of such MUAs (and likely seldom by others). 2. Even mobile MUAs don't get much benefit from c-t-e: deflate, since that works only when both the message sender and all receivers support it, which'll be fairly seldom. Authors of clients who assume ethernet to the server almost never get any benefit. Arnt Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLNNgs049079 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:23:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QLNNMK049076 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:23:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLNM5g049060 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:56651 helo=khms.westfalen.de) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1Dmeb3-0002lV-NF for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:23:21 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWi-00087x-RU for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:52 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 26 Jun 2005 23:02:47 +0200 Date: 26 Jun 2005 16:46:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9ZbmDW3mw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <42BC6EF4.1010202@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC5C5A.8060400@nntpserver.com> <200506241607.47030.blilly@erols.com> <200506241607.47030.blilly@erols.com> <42BC6EF4.1010202@nntpserver.com> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> nntp@nntpserver.com (Steve Walker) wrote on 24.06.05 in <42BC6EF4.1010202@nntpserver.com>: > For example, why doesn't the "standard" specify that 64-bit > integers are used for article counters? A real-world problem > facing NNTP developers is what happens when the 31/32 bit counter > rolls over? I highly doubt that most clients can deal with this > issue. Some clients are going to roll at 2^31 and some at 2^32. Wrong working group. NNTPEXT is <--- thataway. (Incidentally, the update to the base standard just passed IESG review, so you're a little late for any changes; on the other hand, towards the end, the group was nearly exclusively manned by server software authors ...) MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLKDNL048707 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QLKD2I048706 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLKCAG048699 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:56572 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWl-0002et-GR for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:55 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWi-00087x-Fp for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:52 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 26 Jun 2005 23:02:47 +0200 Date: 26 Jun 2005 14:47:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9ZbmC$wHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de (Frank Ellermann) wrote on 21.06.05 in <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de>: > RfC 2822 missed the idea of Message-IDs, a globally unique > identifier forever. I'm seriously fed up by this completely unfounded assertion that seems to be impossible to kill no matter how false. In fact, the idea goes back at least to RFC 624 (obsoleted by 733, which was obsoleted by 822, which is obsoleted by 2822), 1977-05-12. All we're debating are implementation techniques and problems, not the fundamental concept. MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLKDWv048715 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QLKD1Z048714 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLKCAH048699 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:56573 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWl-0002eu-Gb for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:55 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWi-00087x-L4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:52 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 26 Jun 2005 23:02:47 +0200 Date: 26 Jun 2005 16:42:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9ZbmDPtHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <42BC530A.5050700@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> <42BC530A.5050700@nntpserver.com> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> nntp@nntpserver.com (Steve Walker) wrote on 24.06.05 in <42BC530A.5050700@nntpserver.com>: > Sebastian Brocks wrote: > > Steve Walker schrieb: > > > > > >>You will not get the other 96% to > >>switch to mime just because this "standard" is published. > > > > > > The vast majority of that 96% is binary traffic, which does not > > care about standards anyway. > > So you write something knowing no one will follow and call it the > standard. Why don't we write a "standard" that follows standard > practices. As far as I'm concerned - and I expect I'm not representing any kind of majority here - binary traffic is a completely uninteresting part of Usenet. In fact, my position may be better characterized by saying that binary traffic isn't part of Usenet, at least in general. In any case, software authors and users of that are certainly on record as not caring for IETF standards. See, for one of many examples, the yEnc discussions. My only interest is in text Usenet. MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLJ0EJ048595 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QLJ0KF048594 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QLIx4F048586 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:56571 helo=khms.westfalen.de) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWn-0002es-6M for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:57 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DmeWi-00087x-C2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:18:52 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 26 Jun 2005 23:02:47 +0200 Date: 26 Jun 2005 14:15:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9ZbmCMdHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de (Frank Ellermann) wrote on 14.06.05 in <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de>: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > I'm going to resolve the ticket as "just replace mqtext with > > *mqtext". > > > OK? > > There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's > in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. > > TTBOMK Charles says, whatever it is, in a msg-id it's case > sensitive. These positions aren't incompatible, but somewhat > different. I'm obsessed with the (2)822 semantics, Charles is > more interested in a visual similarity to RfC 2822 <id-right>. If we insist on at least as much different semantics from a domain in an address as 2822 (it's not clear to me what 2822 implies about this), then we certainly shouldn't be any closer to the notation of a domain in an address. I'm for id-right. MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKvR6E045822 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QKvQ2D045821 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKvQOi045815 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPVNY46STC00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net>, Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Message-id: <01LPX3U32N8Y00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:53:33 -0500" <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Henry Spencer wrote: > > The only place where we deal with any form of article numbering is in an > > explanatory note on our discussion of the Xref header, where we note that > > Xref "article locators" are commonly decimal numbers. We say nothing > > about how long those numbers might be, since we're dealing with them in > > ASCII text, not in a binary representation. > My apologies, I am in the wrong group for this topic. > On the other issue, has anyone proposed using headers similar to > 'Content-type: raw/subtype' or 'NNTP-Format: raw/subtype'. The use of media types to identify encodings is specifically prohibited. This is a transfer encoding, not a media type. > Which > would mean that \r\n\0 are escaped and the line length limits > were kept, but other than that no further restrictions on format > or content of the article was made. Bruce already pointed out that not only is it perfectly permissible to define additionaal content encodings for this sort of thing, at least two drafts have been written that propose doing exactly this. Both have been allowed to exprire. I cannot speak for Dan's draft but I let mine expire due to there being little if any apparent interest in pursuing it from the community. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKqVm5045200 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QKqVZK045199 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKqVTi045185 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5QKqUrq029084 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:30 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D589EE7CB0; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:53:33 -0500") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:52:29 -0700 Message-ID: <87fyv4vo1e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > On the other issue, has anyone proposed using headers similar to > 'Content-type: raw/subtype' or 'NNTP-Format: raw/subtype'. Which would > mean that \r\n\0 are escaped and the line length limits were kept, but > other than that no further restrictions on format or content of the > article was made. This would be a Content-Transfer-Encoding (CTE), not a Content-Type, and yes, people have. I tried to work with the author of yEnc on such a proposal, but unfortunately didn't get anywhere. There are reasons why the IETF is reluctant to bless any additional CTEs, but I think that this one could have a future and could make it through the process. In the absence of any interest or cooperation from the motivating software package, however, I gave up. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKl7Uh044596 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QKl7bH044595 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QKl3LF044565 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21986849 for multiple; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:47:03 -0500 Message-ID: <42BF15CD.8080204@nntpserver.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:53:33 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> CC: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > The only place where we deal with any form of article numbering is in an > explanatory note on our discussion of the Xref header, where we note that > Xref "article locators" are commonly decimal numbers. We say nothing > about how long those numbers might be, since we're dealing with them in > ASCII text, not in a binary representation. My apologies, I am in the wrong group for this topic. On the other issue, has anyone proposed using headers similar to 'Content-type: raw/subtype' or 'NNTP-Format: raw/subtype'. Which would mean that \r\n\0 are escaped and the line length limits were kept, but other than that no further restrictions on format or content of the article was made. This would allow yEncoding and any future applications to used in a way that would not cause harm to others. Clients that didn't want to process articles with an unspecified format would just ignore them. Specialized clients would only process articles with a content-type of raw looking for their own signatures. It seems like an extremely simple solution and I believe that you may get the client developers to add one simple header if it means complying with a new standard. Steve Walker. NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QJSCTi035920 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QJSCkQ035919 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QJSBeg035909 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CBF61B4B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00522-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C8061AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:28:07 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <29379DD0F7F08A6E55C5B833@[192.168.1.113]> In-Reply-To: <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 25. juni 2005 11:52 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> If there was ever a conflict discovered between MIME and 2822 about what >> a "header field" was, this would make our "note" ambiguous. >> And if there is no conflict, the change adds no information. > > The information added relates to MIME-part headers and the fields > contained therein, as defined in RFCs 2045 and 2046 and used in other MIME > specifications, which as noted in 2822 itself (sect. 1.1) "are outside of > the scope of" 2822. Although there is no conflict, there is additional > information. [rather than asserting that a specific suggested change, > which can be assumed to have been suggested for a reason, is "useless", > "harmful", "ambiguous", and "adds no information", I suggest that in > future a more professional and productive approach would be to ask a > question if you are unclear about the reason for the suggestion] After reading this a couple of times, I think I get the point. When I suggested the note: NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows the terminology of RFC 2822. I thought I was making a note that concerned only the use of the term "header", while your suggestion of adding MIME to the mix seems appropriate if the purpose of the note was to say that we were going to use all the terminology from MIME and RFC 2822 (and others). To make it clearer what I intended to say, I'll amend my suggested note as follows: NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows the terminology of RFC 2822 in using the term "header field", based on a belief that consistent terminology among specifications that depend on each other makes the specifications easier to use in the long run. That's also as far as I think it's appropriate to go in what Henry Spencer calls "apologizing for the change". Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QI9E5R028808 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QI9EZe028807 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QI9Et6028801 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5QI8uF1004233; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5QI8uVM004232; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BC6EF4.1010202@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626135933.3555B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > For example, why doesn't the "standard" specify that 64-bit > integers are used for article counters? Our draft says nothing about the number of bits used in an article counter, because we don't have the concept of an article counter. The only place where we deal with any form of article numbering is in an explanatory note on our discussion of the Xref header, where we note that Xref "article locators" are commonly decimal numbers. We say nothing about how long those numbers might be, since we're dealing with them in ASCII text, not in a binary representation. > A real-world problem facing NNTP developers... Discuss this with the NNTP WG, please. It's not an article-format or article-processing issue, so it's outside our scope. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QHxdeA027683 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QHxdJX027682 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QHxac6027673 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5QHxIF1004043; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5QHxI0Y004042; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:59:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050626134022.3555A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > ...In the real world, if all clients must support mime > how do non-mime articles get posted. There's nothing which requires a MIME-supporting client to use MIME in all articles posted through it. For one thing, an article which is written in plain ASCII text doesn't need to be a MIME message. Some clients might throw in MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii just on general principles, but this doesn't actually affect the content or interpretation of the article. (That Content-Type header is completely redundant -- text/plain is the default is the default content type, and us-ascii is the default character set for text/plain. The MIME-Version header merely adds a -- rather weak -- assurance that in the absence of a Content-Type header, the article really is plain human-readable text.) For another, just because a client supports MIME doesn't mean it can't support other conventions as well. MIME might not even be the default; the MIME support might be activated only by explicit user request. All our drafts require is that MIME support be present. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QGqOHd021906 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QGqOF0021905 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QGqMkr021896 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmaG7-0005kk-4M for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:45:27 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:45:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:45:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:47:19 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 108 Message-ID: <42BEDC17.A05@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506251312.37510.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > The WG charter gives no authorization to modify RFC 2822. If you look at http://tools.ietf.org/wg/usefor/ you'd find among others two expired drafts especially about the msg-id. You'd also find a link to the WG Charter stating: | A draft update to RFC 1036 ("Son of RFC 1036" ) was released | by Henry Spencer in June 1994 but this was not further | pursued and is now itself out of date. Currently a | combination of this and RFC 1036 are regarded as the de-facto | standard. [...] | The Group shall also aid and/or oversee the production of | other Usenet related Internet Drafts and Standards. That covers NNTP and the two news-nntp-uri drafts. If the WG failed to fix the msg-id error in [MESSFOR] it's sad, but at least it's not forced to repeat this error. > o CID and MID URIs (RFC 2392) seem to work fine. That's essentially a percent-encoded RfC 822 <addr-spec>, and we already know that we don't want WSP, NO-WS-CTL, or comments in a <msg-id>. Not one of the RfC 2392 examples discusses or uses such constructs, it's about %25 for % etc. in URLs based on RfC 1738. > o there are mechanisms other than syntax changes (e.g. > implementation notes) to address specific issues. If we don't get the <msg-id> or <newsgroup-name> syntax right this WG should be dissolved. Intentionally hiding this syntax problem in prose is cowardly and no option. The IESG is already at its lowest point of unprofessional and unethical behaviour after approving technically incompatible "mail experiments". That's no excuse for you and me to follow their "worst common practice". For an example how this problem should be _not_ solved see e.g. <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.w3c.uri/569/match=dtext> : | A word about non-whitespace controls, since there seems to | be some confusion: aside from appearance in qtext and ctext, | they also appear in the 2822 grammar for dtext. The reason | for that as I understand it (private correspondence with | Pete Resnick) is that at the time, IDN had not been fleshed | out, and the provision is to accommodate possible schemes. | Of course at the present time, a domain name, including IDN, | consists solely of letters, digits, and hyphens plus | separating dots. So while the syntax has provision for | NO-WS-CTLS in dtext, those won't actually occur because of | restrictions in other specifications (notably RFCs 1034, 1035). Your communication with the [MESSFOR] author is not good enough for a future <id-domain>. And this dtext problem hits also the <General-address-literal> in RfC 2821. It is _our_ job, if we don't get the <msg-id> right this WG has absolutely no business to mess with NetNews at all. > o NNTP and URIs are handled by other groups. See the WG Charter quoted above. State of the art in nntp -27: | A message-id MUST begin with "<" and end with ">", and MUST | NOT contain the latter except at the end. | A message-id MUST be between 3 and 250 octets in length. | A message-id MUST NOT contain octets other than printable | US-ASCII characters. [...] | message-id = "<" 1*248A-NOTGT ">" [...] | A-NOTGT = %x21-3D / %x3F-7E ; exclude ">" For the purposes of NNTP the <id-local> "@" <id-domain> details are irrelevant, as long as the combination is unique, worldwide and forever. For other purposes like news-URLs, or designing a msg-id generator based on proper name spaces, the structure is important. > Not our problem. Read the Charter. Of course it's our problem, it affects also <unique>@<full_domain_name> in RfC 1738, or rather its syntax: article = 1*[ uchar | ";"| "/" | "?" | ":" | "&" | "=" ] "@" host The two proposed news-nntp-uri-00 successors use either: message-id = printable-ascii "@" printable-ascii printable-ascii = 1*( %d33-61 / %d63-126 ) ; excludes ">" or: message-id = unique "@" host ; see RFC 1036 unique = 1*( %d33-61 / %d63-126 ) ; excludes ">" Some details still TBD, at the moment <unique> is plain wrong, because it has to be percent-encoded in an URL. > Wording: "fixed" implies that something is "broken" Yes, and the least common denominators are printable (syntax) and a domain allowing for a domain-literal as RHS (semantics). Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QEimGc011059 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5QEimFS011058 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5QEikwW011051 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DmYGP-0001vn-J7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:37:37 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.129 ([212.82.251.129]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:37:37 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.129 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:37:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:42:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 16 Message-ID: <42BEBEEA.67D6@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv6thz2.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506251435.51581.blilly@erols.com> <87slz6jmkp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.129 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > I object to saying that removal of Xref is a SHOULD for > servers. [...] > I'm going to now assume that people understand my position > on this proposal without these sorts of small clarifications. FWIW "add me". Bruce's definition of a "local system" as in '"local system" refers to a server *and* its clients' doesn't match my concept of NetNews, where a "leafnode" with more than one "node" is in theory just another "node". BTW, that's also the reason why I hunted the word "downstream" in an earlier draft until it was finally removed. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PMu2OB051214 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PMu2L8051213 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PMu1Z2051191 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94AD29923; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PMtwXW004337(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:55:58 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PMtw0X004336(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:55:58 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:55:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <42BDB95B.4000406@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42BDB95B.4000406@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251855.54903.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 16:06, Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > If a client obtains an article by Msg-Id instead of newsgroup:number, > it needs the Xref information to properly mark seen/unseen articles, > even if the message is in the CURRENT newsgroup. > > So the wording "of use to a local system" is not accurate. Consider > what you are proposing: clients cannot be expected to grab a message by > ID, and then only have a newsgroups header to go on. For clarification, as there seems to be continued confusion, the proposal has been carefully considered; "local system" refers to a server *and* its clients. The proposal is to state that Xref is used to store metadata on a local system, and that there are security implications involved in transmitting that local data with an article to remote systems, where "remote systems" means a different server where the field body -- if the optional field is used on that remote system -- would necessarily have to be different. > I also don't agree with your suggestion that it is BCP which would > make any improvement in complexity of implementation or CPU load. > > I expect that most server software accepting a feed does Path header > slicing and Xref header replacement in the same section of code, using > similar code. INN works this way. The work to cut information out of > the header is about the same in both cases, and we certainly can't drop > Path splicing. You missed the critical point: the work to "cut information out of the header" is zero for Xref if there is no Xref field. Many servers already index information by message-id, and I see no reason why this sort of cross-reference information, which exists when an article is stored locally, could not be part of such data. > Software complexity is not going to be reduced by this SHOULD NOT either. > A SHOULD NOT added to USEFOR The "SHOULD NOT" was for usepro, not usefor, and exists because of security issues, not "complexity". See separate discussions. > A note about how Xref leaks information might be something for USEAGE. Security issues related to the protocols should be discussed in the protocol document; that's not a matter that can be deferred to a mere informative RFC. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PM7JfF046747 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PM7Jb4046746 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de (postfix@krusty.dt.E-Technik.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.163.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PM7HqS046740 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matthias.andree@gmx.de) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB40744013 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (krusty [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09362-01 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from m2a2.dyndns.org (p509158C5.dip.t-dialin.net [80.145.88.197]) by mail.dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DAE4400B for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by merlin.emma.line.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B40A774D8 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from m2a2.dyndns.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (m2a2.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17912-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by merlin.emma.line.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id D835977529; Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Matthias Andree <matthias.andree@gmx.de> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:20 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> X-PGP-Key: http://home.pages.de/~mandree/keys/GPGKEY.asc Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:07:12 +0200 Message-ID: <m31x6qm6pb.fsf@merlin.emma.line.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dt.e-technik.uni-dortmund.de Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: > > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. > > There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. Best > current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a separate > database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the article > header. I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion > of course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: > > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. > > That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro > document, text similar to the following could appear there: > > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. The Xref field is usually (i. e. with all upstream servers I can access, three different software packages and versions) provided through the RFC-2980-style XOVER, also in the current NNTPEXT-base draft #27 as OVER, and is somewhat useful to sort out postings that are excessively crossposted without looking at the HEAD. Clients might use it by marking a cross-posted article read in .newsrc-style files in other groups without searching for the Message-ID. About transmission to other systems, I'd expect a receiving system that uses the Xref header to replace it by its own data. Leafnode for instance does that, and INN appears to do that, too. I wonder if this issue is so important as to deserve reglementation or strong recommendations at all. -- Matthias Andree Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PLGp9i023393 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PLGpAA023392 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PLGl9Z023384 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02DF2993C; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PLGjsc003735(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:16:45 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PLGiZn003734(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:16:45 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:16:41 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625153025.18255B-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625153025.18255B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251716.42265.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 15:38, Henry Spencer wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > Because...? (N.B. the BCP 14 meaning of SHOULD NOT is a recommendation, > > not an imperative). > > By author's intent and wide community consensus, SHOULD NOT is an > *emphatic* recommendation, not to be disregarded without specific and > important reasons. I make no claim about the BCP 14 author's intent or about consensus for a specific interpretation which is not present in the approved document's text. Here, verbatim, is what the document actually says regarding SHOULD NOT: 4. SHOULD NOT This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label. That text, indeed the full text of BCP 14, fails to include the words "emphatic", "specific", or "important", with or without "scare" asterisks. It says what it says, and I have quoted that section verbatim above. While I would have been happy to defer detailed discussion of suggested usepro text until we get to that document, I chose the "SHOULD NOT" phrase carefully and specifically in the context of the suggested text. > BCP 14 itself calls for using its keywords sparingly, > adding: "they must not be used to try to impose a particular method on > implementors where the method is not required for interoperability". The context of that sentence fragment comes from section 6 of BCP 14, which reads: 6. Guidance in the use of these Imperatives Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only be used where it is actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions) For example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method on implementors where the method is not required for interoperability. "they" in the quoted sentence fragment refers to "Imperatives", and "SHOULD NOT" is no imperative. See http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=imperative for definitions, which include the words "command", "obligation", "an order", "compels a certain behavior", in contrast to the specified meaning of BCP 14 "SHOULD NOT". In any event, the phrase "SHOULD NOT" in the suggested text was used sparingly and where security considerations apply; it imposes no particular method (i.e. imperative or not, the guidelines for use have been satisfied). BCP 14 goes on to note: 7. Security Considerations These terms are frequently used to specify behavior with security implications. The effects on security of not implementing a MUST or SHOULD, or doing something the specification says MUST NOT or SHOULD NOT be done may be very subtle. Document authors should take the time to elaborate the security implications of not following recommendations or requirements as most implementors will not have had the benefit of the experience and discussion that produced the specification. While, as noted, I would have been happy to defer details to usepro, I have taken the time to elaborate the security implications associated with the suggested recommendation, and have pointed out that it has not been posed as a requirement. > The correct way to make a mild recommendation is not to use a keyword at > all. The intent is not "a mild recommendation"; it is intended to convey the fact that there are (perhaps subtle) security effects and that "the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing" transmission of an Xref field containing local system data to a remote system, precisely as BCP 14 indicates for use of SHOULD NOT. > (And as noted in previous mail, this particular recommendation would > be commanding the tide not to come in, so it seems pointless.) Your (unsubstantiated by facts, I note) claim about B news appears to be a false claim. Statements dependent on the veracity of a false claim are dubious at best. There was in fact a point to the specific text proposed, and there was a reason why "SHOULD NOT" specifically was proposed, not "MUST NOT" or "MAY" or "should not", and why I have taken the effort to clarify mischaracterizations of what has been proposed, at length and in detail. So to also answer Russ' question, yes there is a point in clear, precise communication and specifically there is a point in clarifying that the suggested text is intended as a recommendation with security implications, but falls short of an imperative (requirement or prohibition). As I have said a few times, I would have preferred deferring discussion of this to usepro, but there now seems little more to say on that part of the suggestion. That "little" may include the acknowledgment, here given, that Russ' specific issues indeed qualify as "valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful", but that does not change my position, and indeed is consistent with it. Let us now please return to the suggested text for usefor, where I still don't know if "might be" is acceptable to Russ. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PKjMfd086553 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PKjMdu086552 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:45:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PKjLZA086528 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5PKj6F1019595; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5PKj5Mp019594; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:45:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251625.29626.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625163712.19230A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > #ifdef DOXREFS > if ( wr ==1 && *hp->xref) > fprintf(fp, "Xref: %s\n", hp->xref); > #endif /* DOXREFS */ > If DOXREFS is not defined, nothing happens with Xref fields. When > defined (the default), wr (the third argument) is checked, and if and > only if its value is one, the field is written. As noted, the value > is zero when transmitting an article to a remote system. *If* you use the built-in single-article transmission in rfuncs2.c. Which nobody has done since *very* early in B News history, because sending single articles via UUCP -- or most any other store-and-forward path -- is grossly inefficient. You're looking at unused vestigial code. Almost all real B News sites used batch transmission exclusively. (Bear in mind that most B News sites joined Usenet only after batching became standard practice.) The B News *batcher* never did Xref exclusion; it sent a byte-for-byte copy of the on-disk article, Xref and all. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PKPbn9062811 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PKPbnU062810 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PKPaCl062767 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B10F29908; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PKPY2w003398(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:25:34 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PKPWXE003397(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:25:32 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:25:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625152829.18255A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625152829.18255A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251625.29626.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 15:29, Henry Spencer wrote: > Even B News, > despite its alleged close relationship to RFC 1036, never did that. B news source: file rfuncs2.c: /* * Transmit file to system. */ transmit(sp, file) ... if (index(sp->s_flags, 'A') == NULL) hwrite(&hh, ofp); ... The 'A' flag, incidentally, is only present for A news format. hwrite is defined as a macro in file header.h: #define hwrite(hp,fp) ihwrite(hp,fp,0) #define lhwrite(hp,fp) ihwrite(hp,fp,1) note that the 3rd argument to ihwrite is zero. file header.c: /* * Write header at 'hp' on stream 'fp' in B+ format. Include received date * if wr is 1. Leave off sysname if wr is 2. */ #ifndef DOXREFS /*ARGSUSED*/ #endif /* !DOXREFS */ ihwrite(hp, fp, wr) register struct hbuf *hp; register FILE *fp; int wr; ... #ifdef DOXREFS if ( wr ==1 && *hp->xref) fprintf(fp, "Xref: %s\n", hp->xref); #endif /* DOXREFS */ ... If DOXREFS is not defined, nothing happens with Xref fields. When defined (the default), wr (the third argument) is checked, and if and only if its value is one, the field is written. As noted, the value is zero when transmitting an article to a remote system. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PK79Nu041897 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PK79sK041895 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PK78bl041876 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-222-93-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.222.93]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5PK6oMB019115 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42BDB95B.4000406@mibsoftware.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:06:51 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: > > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. > > There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. Best > current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a separate > database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the article > header. I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion > of course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: > > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. > > That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro > document, text similar to the following could appear there: > > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. > > If a client obtains an article by Msg-Id instead of newsgroup:number, it needs the Xref information to properly mark seen/unseen articles, even if the message is in the CURRENT newsgroup. So the wording "of use to a local system" is not accurate. Consider what you are proposing: clients cannot be expected to grab a message by ID, and then only have a newsgroups header to go on. Getting the message numbers would require getting the entire XOVERs for all the articles in all the groups listed in Newsgroups. So servers really MUST serve out Xref to clients. It isn't a local system issue. If the servers have to serve it out to clients, they have to store it on spool, for all the same reasons I just mentioned. It would be very difficult for a server to generate Xref by cross- referencing a message ID to a database, and then getting all the newsgroup:number pairings and inserting the data. Or do you think that there should be a way to go from message-ID to overview record? Keeping history is hard enough! I also don't agree with your suggestion that it is BCP which would make any improvement in complexity of implementation or CPU load. I expect that most server software accepting a feed does Path header slicing and Xref header replacement in the same section of code, using similar code. INN works this way. The work to cut information out of the header is about the same in both cases, and we certainly can't drop Path splicing. Software complexity is not going to be reduced by this SHOULD NOT either. A SHOULD NOT added to USEFOR is not going to change the necessity of having Xref stripping capability in the software. There are going to be legacy peers around for a long time, and a SHOULD NOT permits persistence in the behavior even for peers updated to conform. And as discussed above, the change isn't going to save that many CPU cycles, and could actually waste them depending on how you decided to store and strip Xref on the way out to your N peers, and insert it on the way out to M clients. A note about how Xref leaks information might be something for USEAGE. But peers can gather a lot more information about the internals of your systems in other ways. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJwMsv034121 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PJwMtf034120 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJwJmC034088 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5PJw7F1018640; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5PJw7J8018639; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:58:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities In-Reply-To: <200506251312.37510.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625154429.18255C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > 2822 msg-id syntax has to be fixed for News, NNTP, and URLs > > The WG charter gives no authorization to modify RFC 2822. Nobody is talking about modifying RFC 2822. The extent to which 2822 syntax applies to news, and specifically what restrictions might have to be imposed to make it work for news, is legitimately our decision. An arbitrary 2822-conforming message is *not* a valid news article, so there *are* added restrictions; the only questions are what they are and how they are best explained. Quite plausibly some of them are best explained by using text and/or ABNF which is a rewritten version of parts of 2822 (although this needs to be done with care to ensure that our version doesn't legalize something that 2822 outlaws). Please stop playing this broken record, Bruce. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJcKui012011 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PJcKur012005 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJcHml011785 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5PJc4F1018412; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5PJc3vP018411; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:38:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625153025.18255B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > I do object to this. > > Because...? (N.B. the BCP 14 meaning of SHOULD NOT is a recommendation, > not an imperative). By author's intent and wide community consensus, SHOULD NOT is an *emphatic* recommendation, not to be disregarded without specific and important reasons. BCP 14 itself calls for using its keywords sparingly, adding: "they must not be used to try to impose a particular method on implementors where the method is not required for interoperability". The correct way to make a mild recommendation is not to use a keyword at all. (And as noted in previous mail, this particular recommendation would be commanding the tide not to come in, so it seems pointless.) Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJUBRp002443 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PJUB30002442 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:30:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PJU82x002410 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5PJTuF1018264; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5PJTulu018263; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <87is02v26j.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050625152829.18255A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. > > I do object to this. Concur. It's a nice idea in abstract, but the real world has never worked that way, and it's time to stop pretending that it does. (Even B News, despite its alleged close relationship to RFC 1036, never did that.) Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PIqeNl059424 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PIqeQn059421 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PIqdxM059405 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PIqd8F028033 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:39 -0700 Received: (qmail 27888 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 18:52:38 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251435.51581.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:35:50 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv6thz2.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506251435.51581.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:38 -0700 Message-ID: <87slz6jmkp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > That does not affect transmission between servers. What happens between > a server and a client is a separate matter. I already covered this too. We're really just repeating ourselves at this point. > On Sat June 25 2005 14:21, Russ Allbery wrote: >> I object to requiring Xref be removed from outgoing articles > Fine. No proposal for a *requiring* removal has been made, as far as I > know. I object to saying that removal of Xref is a SHOULD for servers. (Was it really necessary for you to make me say that? Was not your message and this message really a waste of WG attention and bandwidth? I'm going to now assume that people understand my position on this proposal without these sorts of small clarifications.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PIZxGv038170 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PIZxLR038169 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PIZwom038122 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9886929946; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PIZs4a002566(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:35:54 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PIZrGU002565(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:35:53 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:35:50 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv6thz2.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87fyv6thz2.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251435.51581.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 14:21, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > > Since this is local data, how does interoperability apply? > > I already answered that. I'm fairly certain that at least some news > readers use this data. That does not affect transmission between servers. What happens between a server and a client is a separate matter. > I object to requiring Xref be > removed from outgoing articles Fine. No proposal for a *requiring* removal has been made, as far as I know. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PILtok022447 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PILtXP022443 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PILsw0022434 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PILrBM023699 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:21:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 25585 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 18:21:53 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:17:59 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> <87vf42tk2q.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:21:53 -0700 Message-ID: <87fyv6thz2.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > Since this is local data, how does interoperability apply? I already answered that. I'm fairly certain that at least some news readers use this data. There's also Xref-slaving, of course. I think I've said everything I have to say. I object to requiring Xref be removed from outgoing articles for the reasons previously stated, mostly because it's not worth the trouble and the justifications are not compelling enough to change existing software, and do not find Bruce's counter-arguments convincing. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PII780018214 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PII7JV018213 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PII6HG018193 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD60F29940; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PII4o7002400(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:04 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PII2KE002399(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:18:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:17:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> <87vf42tk2q.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87vf42tk2q.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251417.59900.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 13:36, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > On Sat June 25 2005 12:20, Russ Allbery wrote: > > >> No, Xref is very widely used in practice. > > > Perhaps I was unclear. I didn't imply that Xref was not used, perhaps > > even widely so. Simply that *best* practice is to put local data in a > > local database. > > This depends on what definition you're using for "best." In terms of the principle of keeping strictly local (and therefore variable between systems) data separate from invariant data (the article content). > This is > certainly not the most interoperable practice. Since this is local data, how does interoperability apply? > Because putting an Xref header in the message is how much Usenet software > works, and I don't see a compelling reason to change that. Security is one issue. Sending local data exposes that local data, constituting unauthorized data disclosure. The threat consequences may include a threat action of inference, specifically traffic analysis. See the security glossary, BCP 36 (a.k.a. RFC 2828). In common terms, it's a violation of the security principle of restricting disclosure of data to those with a "need to know". Although security is not mentioned (at all!) in RFC 1036, the principle of not exposing local data espoused in the RFC 1036 text is sound. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHaVbg069551 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PHaVQm069550 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHaUTY069544 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PHaTua009206 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:29 -0700 Received: (qmail 23638 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 17:36:29 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:29:30 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <87is02v26j.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:29 -0700 Message-ID: <87vf42tk2q.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Sat June 25 2005 12:20, Russ Allbery wrote: >> No, Xref is very widely used in practice. > Perhaps I was unclear. I didn't imply that Xref was not used, perhaps > even widely so. Simply that *best* practice is to put local data in a > local database. This depends on what definition you're using for "best." This is certainly not the most interoperable practice. >> I do object to this. > Because...? (N.B. the BCP 14 meaning of SHOULD NOT is a recommendation, > not an imperative). Because putting an Xref header in the message is how much Usenet software works, and I don't see a compelling reason to change that. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHTbR8062408 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PHTbi0062407 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHTac7062389 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2652929946; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PHTXUR002013(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:29:34 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PHTXLi002012(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:29:33 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:29:30 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> <87is02v26j.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87is02v26j.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251329.31161.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 12:20, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > Best current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a > > separate database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the > > article header. > > No, Xref is very widely used in practice. Perhaps I was unclear. I didn't imply that Xref was not used, perhaps even widely so. Simply that *best* practice is to put local data in a local database. > My guess would also be that > some news readers want it in the article proper in order to mark > crossposts already read appropriatley. I have no problem with communicating such information (however it is locally stored) via an appropriate mechanism (e.g. overview data). > > I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion of > > course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: > > > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. > > s/has been/may be/. Other than that, I don't particularly mind this. I'd prefer not to confuse readers between the several meanings of "may". How do you feel about "might"? > > That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro > > document, text similar to the following could appear there: > > > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. > > I do object to this. Because...? (N.B. the BCP 14 meaning of SHOULD NOT is a recommendation, not an imperative). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHCjbO045948 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PHCjAZ045947 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PHCiaJ045940 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B7129908; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PHCfYq001891(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:12:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PHCeXd001890(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:12:40 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:12:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251312.37510.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 23:34, Frank Ellermann wrote: > 2822 msg-id syntax has to be fixed for News, NNTP, and URLs The WG charter gives no authorization to modify RFC 2822. Facts: o CID and MID URIs (RFC 2392) seem to work fine. o there are mechanisms other than syntax changes (e.g. implementation notes) to address specific issues. o NNTP and URIs are handled by other groups. Not our problem. Wording: "fixed" implies that something is "broken", but no convincing case has been made that 2822's definition is what is broken. [...] > That won't fly with Bruce and Charles for different reasons, > Bruce wants the 2822 syntax I repeat: we have no authority to modify RFC 2822. This has nothing to do with "wants"; it's a simple matter of proper IETF procedure. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGg6Vk015521 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PGg6uC015520 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGg5QW015486 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E61929908; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PGg3KU001673(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:42:04 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PGg2b8001672(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:42:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:41:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IILL5L.5B1@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILL5L.5B1@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251241.59991.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 12:44, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > > >Assigned ticket #1047 to this issue. > > >> Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity > >> ABNF production. > > I oppose this. It has been raised on the WG several times over the years, > and it has always been concluded that IPv6 addresses were going to arise > sooner or later and therefore should be accomodated (though possibly > discouraged as the proposed USEPRO text already does). References to all of the discussions (you claimed "always") and Chair-specified consensus, please. [Frankly, your continued habit of making unsupported assertions is very wasteful of limited WG resources. Please stop it.] > Yes, there is a theoretical possibility of a backward incompatibility There is nothing "theoretical" about it; you know this because it has been discussed at length, with supporting documentation -- we know for a fact that B news, C news, and INN treat colon as a delimiter, and that reassignment will therefore unquestionably break backward compatibility. It is disingenuous of you, and frankly insulting to others, for you to categorize this as "theoretical". > I have already proposed a wording (in reply to John) for inclusion in > USEFOR to advise care when choosing <path-identity>s. That wording is inadequate. > [1] Suppose site A still regards ":" as a <path-delimiter>. It feeds site > B which has always chosen to call itself "beef". In the meantime, > post-new-standard, some new site C has chosen to call itself "dead:beef" > (not a wise choice, but I am not allowed to the the 'i' word :-) ). Now, > A will fail to forward to B articles which have previously passed through > "dead:beef". Note that this is much less likely if use of ":" is confined > to IPv6 addresses. There is also a less disruptive scenario [2]. Sigh (again). Charles, do you honestly fail to recognize, after it has been pointed out and after Frank has also mentioned "cafe" etc., that "dead" and "beef" are composed entirely of characters representing hexadecimal digits (and moreover DEADBEEF is a well-known set of such heaxadecimal digits) and therefore might well appear in an IPv6 address literal? Clearly "dead", "beef", and any of (16^^4 = 65536) - 2 other 4-character combinations of hexadecimal digits (not to mention 256 combinations of two hexadecimal digits) which may appear in IPv6 address literals can conflict with unqualified (in the DNS sense) names. Do you really fail to realize that obvious fact, or are you intentionally wasting WG time? Really, I want to know if it's the former case so that I know to explain things in minute detail. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGdc2B012870 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PGdcAY012869 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGdb2V012850 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PGdar5013032 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:39:37 -0700 Received: (qmail 21296 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 16:39:36 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:43 -0500") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87ekaqv19z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > A good protocol will be flexible to allow any kind of information. Textual Usenet requires a significant amount of metadata, and handling that data in an interoperable fashion requires structures that may well be unnecessary for binary posts. You're objecting, in part, to the addition of rules that are *required* in order to do internationalization properly, and that, as I have already demonstrated, are already used in the majority of posts to text Usenet (and growing). In other words, the data that you're presenting is evidence of exactly my point; the schism between the needs of the binary Usenet and the text Usenet is deep and growing fast. See also much of the news.software.nntp discussion over the past two years, including the discussions of yEnc, multipart binary reassembly, and the observation that message IDs in their current form really don't make a lot of sense for binary traffic. I know that the binary folks don't want to use MIME. The text folks have to if we're going to get anywhere with interoperable non-English support. The standard doesn't require MIME; that's about as much of a concession as I think you'll ever get out of the people, like me, who care about text. > It appears to me that what has been written so far is just for the > minority. That rather depends on how you measure the minority. Mostly-text or only-text is the *vast* majority of Usenet installations; I bet there are under 100 servers in the entire world that are actually trying to carry a complete binary feed, and that number similarly is dropping due to the bandwidth and specialized management requirements. The significant majority of Usenet sites at this point (and I'm fairly confident of this statement -- as a server implementor, I talk to a lot of them) are carrying either only a handful of binary groups for legacy reasons or no binary groups at all. The majority of news readers, both by number and by deployment count, find dealing with MIME much easier than dealing with yEnc. For occasional binary attachments to otherwise text groups (such as for private hierarchies, mailing list gateways, and then like), MIME is a significantly better protocol and is considerably more interoperable than either yEnc or uuencode. The needs for binary groups are different. I don't particularly want to *break* binary Usenet, but the problems that I care about fixing are text problems. If you want to champion things that binary Usenet needs, that's great, but you're going to need to not stomp on the things that text needs in the process. > My point is, that if it's agreed that mime is a good format then the > word 'SHOULD' be used and not 'MUST". As other people have already pointed out, this is the case already. News *readers* have to support MIME because they have to be able to read MIME messages, as there will be quite a lot of them. This means that pure binary download clients will likely not be compliant *news readers* according to this standard. I'm not sure if this is a serious enough problem to worry about; they're not really trying to be news readers in the sense that we use in these documents. > The same thing for yEncoded articles. I believe yEnc is so poorly designed as to be unstandardizeable by the IETF in its current form. I came to that conclusion after spending a bunch of time trying to prove the opposite. If you can do better, please, by all means, go for it. Just because something is widely used doesn't mean that it's documented well enough that one can standardize it. In practice, there are serious interoperability problems between different yEnc implementations. Certainly, given the widespread use of yEnc, it would be worth at least documenting the existing protocol in an informational RFC. If you're willing to do that work, I certainly won't stand in your way. The designer appears to have no interest in working with a standards body. >> Now that I've realized that this thread was started by someone who >> pretty much cares only about the binary groups, this all makes much >> more sense. > That certainly not true. I care about all of Usenet. I'm sorry. That wasn't the right thing for me to say. I don't know what you care about, and shouldn't be talking as if I did. The concerns that you presented are primarily binary-related concerns. > Why make mime processing required and not recommended? Why forbid > non-encoded binary data? Because the point of standards is to get different implementations to interoperate properly with each other, and both of those constraints are required in order to do so. Note that not even yEnc is unencoded binary data. It *is* a different CTE, and really should be registered as a CTE, but there's a limit to what a standards body can do if the people designing protocols refuse to standardize them. You *have* to encode binary data before putting it on Usenet because the existing Usenet software is not clean in nul handling and relies on line termination for finding the end of the article. > I'd also like to point out that no one person here has commented on the > suggestion of requiring article numbers to be 64 bit. That's because you're in the wrong working group. This is an NNTP issue, and you're about three years late to raise it (even apart from the fact that we talked about this and there are reasons that I won't go into for why it wasn't changed). This working group doesn't deal with article numbers. > Here we have a real problem that is bound to cause problems in the near > future, yet since it won't effect text users from a long time it's > ignored. It wasn't ignored. > While it may seem that I'm the binary user advocate, it's just because > from what I've read, It's a group of users that have been completely > ignored by this proposal. I just don't want to see further seperation > between user bases. I beat that drum for years. I've become convinced that it's a lost cause. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGMuHY094920 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PGMuw1094919 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGMubS094897 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2F129928; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PGMo5R001531(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:22:50 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PGMof1001530(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:22:50 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:22:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> <IILIx0.4KM@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILIx0.4KM@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251222.46889.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 11:55, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Wed June 22 2005 15:18, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> > >> In RFC 2822 an <id-right> is a string of characters satisfying some ABNF. > > >The grammar production named id-right is an ABNF rule name, yes. > > >> It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a <quoted-pair> > >> is "invisible"). > > >No, the semantics are "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address)". > > I do not see where RFC 2822 says that. It says so (in those words) in the part which I quoted from 2822 and which you have snipped. John Stanley seems to have identified some problem related to editing (unless of course you were exaggerating about "an hour or so" (N.B. there was a "smiley" notation indicating sadness, but none indicating intended humor or exaggeration)); may I suggest the vi editor, which John also recommended, and with which you can quickly and efficiently locate the text by typing (each line ends with a carriage return): vi rfc2822.txt /domain name (o You can exit vi by typing the two characters (no carriage return required) ZZ Alternatively, you can find a web interface to RFCs via the RFC-Editor web site (http://www.rfc-editor.org), and you can use your browser's text search mechanism to find the text within the RFC 2822 document. > It is essentially the same as we have just been agreeing for the Path > header. We seem not to be agreed. There is some agreement on "not an IP address", but you seem to want it both (incompatible) ways, "not an IP address" and "an IP address". We are not agreed on "opaque label" or "public name", which has not been discussed much. In any event, Path is not specified in RFC 2822, and is irrelevant to discussion of msg-id and 2822. > All of <path-identity>, <id-left> and <id-right> are "opaque > labels", whether you initially construct them out of domain-names or > domain literals, or whatever else. Please cite RFC 2822 text supporting your "opaque labels" assertion. Please also cite specific RFC 2822 text, as specifically requested earlier, that supports your contention that the semantics of msg-id has been changed. > >> No, Mark made his suggestion (in the NNTP list, I believe) > > >Mark's suggestion was made here, and is archived in this WG's mailing list > >archive at > >http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html > > >> in the belief > >> that he was describing a temporary problem that would be fixed in future > >> implementations. > > >That is a false assertion; Mark specifically referred to a transport > >protocol constraint, as his text clearly shows. > > Mark may well have said that on this list when he was a member of it. Charles, there is no "may" about it. I have provided a reference to the archived mailing list message as well as a quotation from that message which clearly indicate: 1. the suggestion was made here 2. It was not "describing a temporary problem..." > But > he most certainly raised essentially the same point on the NNTP list If it was the same point, then it still was not "describing a temporary problem". And whether or not the issue was raised on the NNTP list, that is irrelevant to the statement about what he said on *this* list, which was quoted (several times, including multiple references) prior to your assertions about what was said and where it was said. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGK6qe091635 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PGK6Ks091634 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PGK5XY091612 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5PGK4e1031413 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:20:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 20901 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 16:20:04 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport In-Reply-To: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:20 -0400") References: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87is02v26j.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: > This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be > transmitted. > There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. That's because that sentence describes behavior that very few people actually follow. It's not a bad idea, but patching the Xref header out of outgoing articles seems to be considered too much pain for not nearly enough gain (that's certainly my opinion). > Best current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a > separate database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the > article header. No, Xref is very widely used in practice. My guess would also be that some news readers want it in the article proper in order to mark crossposts already read appropriatley. > I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion of > course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: > The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store > cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other > methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. s/has been/may be/. Other than that, I don't particularly mind this. > That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro > document, text similar to the following could appear there: > Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it > SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. I do object to this. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFuVZk065666 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PFuVKv065665 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFuUvm065649 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A6129940; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFuTLN001285(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:56:29 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFuTcu001284(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:56:29 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:56:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> <B03DEFA85FA2EFE80C2BA1E5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IILIBq.4H4@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILIBq.4H4@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251156.27630.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 11:43, Charles Lindsey wrote: > Yes, it seems we have been discussing something tht RFC 2822 had already > resolved. > > As regards the wording you just proposed above, I would still prefer it to > be like: > > Software MAY accept dates with unknown timezones and SHOULD treat ... > > Of course, whether some particular timezone is "unknown" is still > dependent upon whether or not you chose to accept all of the <obs-zone>. > > As for the syntax and the rest of the text, I am happy with what Harald > proposed at the start of this thread, namely removing UT and just leaving > GMT as the only MUST accept / MUST NOT generate item. Your comments seem to have been focused on use in the Injection-Date field rather than on the legacy fields Date and Expires, which UAs will need to be able to recognize, including the still-used alphabetic abbreviations, which of course also appear in archives. A ticket has been opened so that you can make a specific suggestion that would address your concerns w.r.t. that specific new field without adversely affecting the legacy fields. Feel free to take advantage of that opportunity. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFqkax061296 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PFqkqt061295 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFqjTV061289 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DA329940; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFqhHw001255(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:43 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFqflB001254(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:42 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:52:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251152.39884.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 11:34, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > --On fredag, juni 24, 2005 09:25:38 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> > wrote: > > >> NEW: > >> > >> NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym > >> for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows > >> the terminology of RFC 2822. > > > > I suggest s/[RFC2822] calls/[RFC2822] and MIME call/ and I suggest > > adding "and MIME [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047], [RFC2049], [RFC2231]" > > to the last sentence. I'd also like to see an informative reference to > > FYI 18 added, but for the sake of conciseness of the document, I can > > live without it. > > I'd consider such a change to be at best useless and at worst harmful. > > If there was ever a conflict discovered between MIME and 2822 about what a > "header field" was, this would make our "note" ambiguous. > And if there is no conflict, the change adds no information. The information added relates to MIME-part headers and the fields contained therein, as defined in RFCs 2045 and 2046 and used in other MIME specifications, which as noted in 2822 itself (sect. 1.1) "are outside of the scope of" 2822. Although there is no conflict, there is additional information. [rather than asserting that a specific suggested change, which can be assumed to have been suggested for a reason, is "useless", "harmful", "ambiguous", and "adds no information", I suggest that in future a more professional and productive approach would be to ask a question if you are unclear about the reason for the suggestion] Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFiDC3051565 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PFiDZ6051564 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFiCQq051544 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C05C29928; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFiAns001156(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:44:10 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFi9xu001155(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:44:10 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:44:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251144.07041.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 11:31, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > The purposes listed in -04 3.1.6 impose first and > >foremost a uniqueness requirement. > > It doesn't explicitly say so, but it is evident that it is necessary. OK; we're agreed that there is a uniqueness requirement. N.B. requirement as in "necessary", not "wouldn't it be nice if...". > > That in turn requires either > >a hierarchical system (like DNS) or a central authority (like the > >UUCP mapping project was supposed to be, though it never worked > >well). > > But that does not follow at all. Usenet has been working quite happily for > many years now just by admins using their common sense when choosing > <path-identity>s. I am not aware of serious clashes that have occurred, > and if they have then they have been sorted out amicably (because it is in > everybody's interest to do so). While you might not be aware of problems, they certainly exist. Although the UUCP mapping project has good intentions and was intended to avoid clashes, it failed to do so. I happen to know for a fact (and have previously mentioned here) that there have been unresolved duplicates; one that I can recall off the top of my head even after a decade is multiple sites claiming the name "wolf". I am not aware that the duplicates were ever resolved. Do you have evidence to support your claim that "they have been sorted out amicably"? In the general case, would you care to explain in specification language (as opposed to hand-waving) precisely how a uniqueness requirement can be met in a distributed system without a hierarchical DNS-like system or a central authority? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFZoUD042539 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:35:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PFZoRb042538 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:35:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFZnKL042521 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBD329971; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFZl6N001107(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:47 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFZkaf001106(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:46 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:35:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IILGK3.44x@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILGK3.44x@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251135.42873.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5PFZoKL042533 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 11:04, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > > >You have to treat Path identities as opaque labels; anything else gets > >into way too much work to specify and implement, IMO. > > Absolutely so. > > But for human readers, it is useful to be able to regard them as > domain-names and/or IP addresses (as the case may be) and to look them up > in the DNS or in whois databases in order to determine the (alleged) route > an article took. We need to specify the semantics of a "path-identity" as one of: o an opaque label o a public name o domain names, IP-addresses, etc. It is unsatisfactory, because it is self-inconsistent, to give contradictory semantics. > Also, in order to detect MISMATCHes, you will likely need to know whether > the IP address the NNTP packet NNTP is not the only transport mechanism. > came from agrees with what the > <path-identity> in the header says. Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is interpretation of the "path-identity" *as* an IP address, not interpretation of an IP address obtained from another source. > >.... I'm not seeing a clamor > >from IPv6 sites wanting to put address literals into the Path header. > > I think that is because usage of IPv6 is still much less than of IPv4. But > clearly it is going to take off one of these days, probably in the Pacific > region first, because that is where the supply of IPv4 addresses seems to > be running out. And then you will start to see them in <path-identity>s; > but probably not for a couple of years or so. Russ' complete statement was: Yeah, I'd like to see some support for that too. I'm not seeing a clamor from IPv6 sites wanting to put address literals into the Path header. in response to my call for you to support your assertion/ ad-hominem remark: > On Wed June 22 2005 17:26, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> So you would rather throw out a much needed facility than put up with a >> rather improbable minor inconvenience? Please come and join us in the >> Real World for a change. > Please support your "much-needed" assertion. You still have not provided any substantive support for your assertion; "I think", "probably", "seems to be", etc. are hardly convincing, and contain no objective data to support the "much needed" assertion. Nor does it provide any evidence to support "a clamor from IPv6 sites to put address literals into the Path". Would you care to retract your "much needed" assertion and/or admit that there is no "clamor"? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFKAbJ025088 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PFET08024625 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PFESvq024617 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE4D29BBC for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFERCS000936(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:27 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PFEODX000935(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:26 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: NEW: USEFOR -04 3.2.11 Xref vs. transport Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:14:20 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251114.21269.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> RFC 1036 says, regarding the Xref field: This is only of value to the local system, so it should not be transmitted. There is no corresponding text in the usefor draft version -04. Best current practice seems to be to keep track of local data in a separate database rather than in a non-transmitted addition to the article header. I therefore propose that the following text (subject to discussion of course) be added to the usefor draft Xref text: The optional Xref field has been used as a place to store cross-reference information of use to a local system. Other methods of handling such metadata include separate databases. That is to clarify the semantics of the field. When we get to the usepro document, text similar to the following could appear there: Because the Xref field is only of use to a particular system, it SHOULD NOT be transmitted to other systems. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PEZcMN078632 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PEZY2t078608 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PEZVsE078530 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:35:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80A129923; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PEZT8u000696(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:35:29 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PEZSY0000695(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:35:29 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:35:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506251035.25469.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat June 25 2005 09:44, Steve Walker wrote: > My point is, that if it's agreed that mime is a good format then > the word 'SHOULD' be used and not 'MUST". "MUST" applies to implementations that claim conformance to the specification. > The same thing for > yEncoded articles. Unfortunately, there's no stable specification to refer to. No IETF community review. Probably no adequate analysis for security issues. > Why make hard absolute rules that can not be > followed by a large number of users. As separately mentioned, packages such as metamail make MIME available. And there are no "hard absolute rules"; implementations not claiming conformance are free to do as they please. Of course, they might not interoperate well with fully conforming implementations. > You are writing rules the will certainly break existing > practices. Harmful practices should be deprecated, and in some cases prohibited (by implementations claiming conformance). > I have not suggested anything that would harm any > group of users. Frankly, you haven't suggested much that's specific enough to comment on. > Why make mime processing required and not > recommended? That's "support", not "processing". And "required" only for implementations that wish to claim conformance to the specification. The reason is to ensure interoperability, e.g. for internationalization of text in header fields. > Why forbid non-encoded binary data? It's not backward compatible with the message format which has been used since RFC 850. It's not backward compatible with widely deployed transport and access mechanisms (NNTP, IMAP) which are compatible with and based on the existing specifications (RFCs 1036 and 822 among others). > It seems to me > that neither of these things are harming Usenet right now This WG has carefully considered both issues and determined otherwise. > and > they are not likely to actually change because of a new "standard". Maybe, maybe not. There is no enforcement of Internet specifications other than peer pressure based on interoperability considerations. Our task is to produce a specification that takes backward compatibility with standards-conforming deployed implementations and *best* current practices into account. > I'd also like to point out that no one person here has commented > on the suggestion of requiring article numbers to be 64 bit. > Here we have a real problem that is bound to cause problems in > the near future, yet since it won't effect text users from a long > time it's ignored. I believe that you are mistaken. Our current priority is the "USEFOR" specification, and it currently provides for article identifiers (in the Xref header field) as: xref = "Xref:" SP [FWS] server-name 1*( FWS location ) [FWS] CRLF server-name = path-identity location = newsgroup-name ":" article-locator article-locator = 1*( %x21-27 / %x29-3A / %x3C-7E ) ; US-ASCII printable characters ; except '(' and ';' NOTE: The traditional form of an article-locator (as required by [NNTP]) is a decimal number, with articles in each newsgroup numbered consecutively starting from 1. RFC 2234 ABNF specifies what the "1*" signifies. Briefly, it means that the length of the "article-locator" has *no* upper bound (in practice there is an upper bound of 996 characters minus the length of the relevant newsgroup name due to line length limits). That's significantly larger that what can be represented in a 64-bit integer. Implementations are free to use whatever mechanisms they deem appropriate to meet the specification. An integer representation limited to merely 64-bit numbers (you neglected to state whether that's signed or unsigned, BTW) might not be a good design choice... So now you have a comment on that particular issue. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PDxFwW029578 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PDxFUr029575 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PDxD9x029537; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB02299CF; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PDx90f000434(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.26 2005/06/24 20:47:59) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:59:10 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5PDx8pP000433(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:59:09 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-822 <ietf-822@imc.org> Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: gzip/deflate compression/encoding Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:59:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org, ietf-822@imc.org, Dan Kohn <dan@dankohn.com> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506250959.02948.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 17:36, Ned Freed wrote: > FWIW, I would be happy to revive the draft if there is any interest. > The last time I tried this the silence was fairly deafening, however. It probably makes sense, though as noted last time, there may be some benefit to decoupling compression and encoding binary->8-bit: o some binary content, e.g. http://users.erols.com/blilly/mparse/tm35 body content, won't compress well and may in fact be expanded by gzip "compression". o combining compression and encoding can yield benefits even for 8-bit content encoded to a 7-bit transport. E.g. given a 1 MB 8-bit text source, compression will typically yield approx. 500 kB binary compressed data. Base64 encoding will expand that by about 26:19 (4/3 * 78/76) yielding about 684 kB which is obviously smaller than what encoding alone would yield. o similarly, binary content could be compressed and encoded for 7bit transport, yielding a size reduction compared to encoding alone. o Continuing along the same lines, large 7-bit content could be compressed and encoded for 7-bit transport to yield an overall size reduction, e.g. if one part of the transport path is known to be a low-bandwidth or size-constrained bottleneck (typically 1 MB -> 684 kB as detailed above). o compression could be used even where binary transport is available (though it's a stretch to call that an "encoding") without the need to hide the nature of the original media type by wrapping the compressed data in a label identifying the data as "application/x-gzip" or "application/octet-stream". I found out yesterday that 8BITMIME works much more widely than expected, so this probably should be handled separately from the USEFOR WG (which is already behind schedule with its work items). Accordingly, I've copied the ietf-822 list and set Reply-To to point there. > I should also mention that Dan and I saw no problem, and indeed some benefit, > from combining the two drafts. If you think I can be of assistance, feel free to contact me off-list(s). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PDcat7002489 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5PDca65002486 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:38:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5PDcYPR002459 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21941185 for multiple; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:38:34 -0500 Message-ID: <42BD5FCB.1030404@nntpserver.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:44:43 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > It's probably worth noting that the binary Usenet is essentially an > extended P2P network at this point and really bears little and decreasing > relationship to text Usenet or any other application of the protocol. Usenet was designed to allow people to share information. It is the original p2p network. What people share isn't important. It doesn't matter if it's a sci-fi story, a letter of protest, or a picture of a train. It's people sharing information. The protocol shouldn't tailored for a small group, but should be broad and flexible. > After a lot of discussions on news.software.nntp about this, it's not > completely clear to me that the binary Usenet is even well-served by using > the same article format as everything else. Their needs and their A good protocol will be flexible to allow any kind of information. It appears to me that what has been written so far is just for the minority. My point is, that if it's agreed that mime is a good format then the word 'SHOULD' be used and not 'MUST". The same thing for yEncoded articles. Why make hard absolute rules that can not be followed by a large number of users. > Now that I've realized that this thread was started by someone who pretty > much cares only about the binary groups, this all makes much more sense. That certainly not true. I care about all of Usenet. This proposal only seems to only care about a small subset of users. You are writing rules the will certainly break existing practices. I have not suggested anything that would harm any group of users. Why make mime processing required and not recommended? Why forbid non-encoded binary data? It seems to me that neither of these things are harming Usenet right now and they are not likely to actually change because of a new "standard". I'd also like to point out that no one person here has commented on the suggestion of requiring article numbers to be 64 bit. Here we have a real problem that is bound to cause problems in the near future, yet since it won't effect text users from a long time it's ignored. While it may seem that I'm the binary user advocate, it's just because from what I've read, It's a group of users that have been completely ignored by this proposal. I just don't want to see further seperation between user bases. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P4ZEFH009865 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5P4ZE36009864 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P4ZDgL009852 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5P4ZC2U018053 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:13 -0700 Received: (qmail 26013 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Jun 2005 04:35:12 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> (Ned Freed's message of "Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:35:12 -0700 Message-ID: <87is03yry7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> writes: > FWIW, I would be happy to revive the draft if there is any interest. > The last time I tried this the silence was fairly deafening, however. > I should also mention that Dan and I saw no problem, and indeed some > benefit, from combining the two drafts. It's probably worth noting that the binary Usenet is essentially an extended P2P network at this point and really bears little and decreasing relationship to text Usenet or any other application of the protocol. After a lot of discussions on news.software.nntp about this, it's not completely clear to me that the binary Usenet is even well-served by using the same article format as everything else. Their needs and their standard usage patterns are almost completely different. (For example, you could drop threading completely from the binary Usenet and people would hardly even notice.) Now that I've realized that this thread was started by someone who pretty much cares only about the binary groups, this all makes much more sense. I would expect reactions like this from most people who think that the binary groups are the primary point of Usenet, even though they're being carried on a fast-decreasing number of servers and have become somewhat of a speciality pay market. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P3bXvi053575 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5P3bWNn053574 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:37:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P3bUXL053555 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dm1NY-0006T3-AK for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:30:48 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-95.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.95]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:30:48 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-95.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:30:48 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:34:47 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 41 Message-ID: <42BCD0D7.40B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-95.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a >> <quoted-pair> is "invisible"). > No, the semantics are "the domain name (or a domain literal > IP address)". [...] > a msg-id has had a domain name or domain literal on the RHS > since RFC 822 (prior to which the RHS was a host name, as > that was before DNS). RFC 2822 has not changed the semantics, > contrary to your unsupported assertion Obviously there are strong disagreements about what a msg-id is both semantically and syntactially: Bruce + Frank + Sebastian + STD 11 + 1036 + s-o-1036: RHS is domain or domain-literal Charles: RHS is what the fixed 2822 syntax allows for <id-right> Charles + Frank + Alexey + 1036 + s-o-1036 + nntp-27: 2822 msg-id syntax has to be fixed for News, NNTP, and URLs Bruce: 2822 msg-id syntax is good enough So for these two details the rough consensus is IMHO clear. Putting it together the consequence _should_ be also clear: msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" That won't fly with Bruce and Charles for different reasons, Bruce wants the 2822 syntax, Charles wants his own semantics. Both positions are showstoppers from my POV, i.e. I prefer to dissolve this WG without any result instead of these positions. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P2FxDd066893 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:15:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5P2Fx6j066892 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5P2Ft4L066645 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:15:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-245.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.245]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bcbe59.d21.218 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:15:53 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5P2CBr12677 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21511 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Message-ID: <IILL5L.5B1@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:44:09 GMT Lines: 49 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >Assigned ticket #1047 to this issue. >> Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity >> ABNF production. I oppose this. It has been raised on the WG several times over the years, and it has always been concluded that IPv6 addresses were going to arise sooner or later and therefore should be accomodated (though possibly discouraged as the proposed USEPRO text already does). Yes, there is a theoretical possibility of a backward incompatibility (i.e. you can construct possible but extremely unlikely scenarios). Even if a case did occur, it would only affect certain sites, and could easily be resolved between the sites affected. The worst that could happen is that a site might find that one of its peers was failing to supply certain articles[1]. I have already proposed a wording (in reply to John) for inclusion in USEFOR to advise care when choosing <path-identity>s. [1] Suppose site A still regards ":" as a <path-delimiter>. It feeds site B which has always chosen to call itself "beef". In the meantime, post-new-standard, some new site C has chosen to call itself "dead:beef" (not a wise choice, but I am not allowed to the the 'i' word :-) ). Now, A will fail to forward to B articles which have previously passed through "dead:beef". Note that this is much less likely if use of ":" is confined to IPv6 addresses. There is also a less disruptive scenario [2]. [2] Suppose A also feeds site C. It receives an article which has already passed through C once, with the <path-identity> "dead:beef". It will not recognize that <path-identity>, and so it will pass it to C again (which is wasteful but not harmful). (but you still may well ask how A came to register C as a peer with the name "dead:beef", given that is not a valid <path-identity> from the POV of A). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLu4rC000263 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OLu4YA000262 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLu4jO000248 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625122996B; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OLu2Um009123(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:56:02 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OLu1XK009122(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:56:02 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9=3A_Feedback_on?= proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:55:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <200506241536.12745.blilly@erols.com> <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241755.59307.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5OLu4jO000255 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 16:23, Steve Walker wrote: > In the real world, if all clients must support mime > how do non-mime articles get posted. The same way as always. A plain text message in US-ASCII is just fine as a non-MIME message. Incidentally, whether you know it or not, your Mozilla Thunderbird client already supports MIME (modulo bugs): Message-ID: <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:23:26 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 If you read a MIME message, you might not be aware that it is MIME, unless you're using a non-MIME client. For example, you might not realize that the subject of this message is MIME-encoded (RFC 2047/2231) unless you take special steps to look at the raw message content. Likewise for the body text. MIME is the only current method which provides for standards- conforming non-ascii content with language tagging for text (see RFC 2277). Maybe that doesn't concern you personally, but there is a world full of people with names such as Claus André Färber who would like to have their names displayed properly. > I really don't see software > developers who design clients that allow non-mime posting to > bother with fully supporting reading mime. They don't have to. Nobody forces conformance to any Internet specification; it's purely voluntary. And separate packages such as metamail provide MIME reading capability to old-fashioned non-MIME clients. > Why require this in > the "standard", why not leave it up to the clients. Interoperability. > We'll end up > with a much of half hearted attempts at supporting the very > complex mime system. As opposed to the current situation, which is...worse. > This will greatly complicate the programing > needed to generated a standards compliant client. Simple is better. Life is complex. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLh5Fo085813 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OLh5mT085809 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLh426085747 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7467061B65; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:43:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11761-01; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:43:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB44761B72; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:42:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:42:47 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Message-ID: <0A9E86E78ADFD54FB9D6C7CC@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve, thanks for reading the proposals before commenting..... I'm sure you'll appreciate that this group has been around and trying to write standards for about 7 years, and has been through a massive amount of discussion about just about every topic related to USENET. We're hoping to finish the format description document real soon now - as I'm sure you can see from the traffic, there are some outstanding issues. Asking the group at this time to reevaluate early basic decisions such as the decision to not depart from the RFC 2822 message format, and to recommend MIME tagging of messages, is certainly not exactly optimal; while you have only recently discovered the group, most of the participants have already spent considerable cycles figuring out what should and should not be done. You've raised an issue - that binary postings common in alt. groups will apparently not be conformant with the new format description. If you can figure out exactly which part of the USEFOR draft that creates this conflict, and can propose language to deal with that, I'm sure we can follow up on that. But please don't come in and say "You're all wrong, you need to start all over". We're not at that stage of the group's lifecycle. Harald Alvestrand USEFOR WG chair --On 23. juni 2005 20:26 -0500 Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> wrote: > > I just stumbled across your website/mailing list and thought I would > share my first impression. First of all, I've developed Usenet software > and ran commercial news servers for many years, so I understand the > protocols well. While I haven't read the proposal 100% yet, what I have > read very disappointing. From what I can tell, your work group is going > to do more damage to Usenet than good. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLdMal081664 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OLdMYA081663 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OLdLTr081527 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPR2V6O94G00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-id: <01LPUCQBGCUA00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:21:25 -0400" <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > > yEncoding > > and MIME don't mix well. > No, see the two proposed drafts mentioned separately. FWIW, I would be happy to revive the draft if there is any interest. The last time I tried this the silence was fairly deafening, however. I should also mention that Dan and I saw no problem, and indeed some benefit, from combining the two drafts. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKVKNt005213 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OKVKg0005212 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKVJOa005203 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21920613 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:31:11 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC6EF4.1010202@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:37:08 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC5C5A.8060400@nntpserver.com> <200506241607.47030.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506241607.47030.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > "yEnc" is not a standard. If you believe otherwise, then (after carefully > reading RFC 1796) please cite the full Standard RFC in which it is specified. With 65% of articles using yEnc and less than 4% using mime, I'd say it more of a real standard than mime. Just because the ietf doesn't call it a standard doesn't make it an industry standard due to widespread use. If you wrote a "standard" that goes against common practice who do you think will win? It's better to write a standard using common practice as the baseline. What is the point to write a new standard that no one will use it? Instead of trying to break existing practices, why doesn't anyone address any of the real problems facing the Usenet news system? For example, why doesn't the "standard" specify that 64-bit integers are used for article counters? A real-world problem facing NNTP developers is what happens when the 31/32 bit counter rolls over? I highly doubt that most clients can deal with this issue. Some clients are going to roll at 2^31 and some at 2^32. Changes like this and others would actually provide some benefit to making a new standard. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKLVuC092930 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OKLVs0092929 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKLUdk092910 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EB229908; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OKLT5c008372(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:21:29 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OKLSjs008371(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:21:29 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:21:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241621.26514.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 13:55, Steve Walker wrote: > MIME doesn't deal well with existing Usenet practices. You might want to have a look at the USEFOR WG charter: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/usefor-charter.html Note that we're working on "best current practice" and "best proposed practice". The word "best" is not an accident. Just because something has been done (leading in many cases to interoperability problems) does not mean that it's a good idea. > yEncoding > and MIME don't mix well. No, see the two proposed drafts mentioned separately. > Considering a very large percentage of > Usenet articles are yEncoded you are creating a situation that > has no resolution. We didn't create the non-standard "yEnc" situation. Nobody prevented a proposal for such an encoding scheme within the existing messaging framework, and at least two people have separately tried to fix that oversight. > They will not quit posting just because > >someone< says they >have< to use use mime/base64. Nobody is saying that. > Usepro wrote: > NOTE: this corresponds to the range of octets permitted for MIME > "8bit data" [RFC 2045]. Thus raw binary data cannot be > transmitted in an article body except by the use of a > Content-Transfer-Encoding such as base64. You understand the meaning of "such as", right? > I started monitor the Usenet stream for 'yEnc' in the Subject > header which is required for yEncoding. "Required" by which Standards Track RFC? (By the way, you might want to read RFC 4096. And definitely read RFC 2822 section 3.6.5 paying special attention to the word "unstructured" (defined in 2822 sect. 2.2.1)) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKHUlx088293 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OKHUsr088289 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OKHTjr088216 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21920106 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:17:28 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC6BBE.8010404@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:23:26 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> <200506241536.12745.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506241536.12745.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On Fri June 24 2005 14:09, Steve Walker wrote: > > Nothing in the specification requires all messages to be MIME > (as noted earlier by Henry). You may be misinterpreting the > specification. I';; send a detailed reply to your longer > message in a while. Thanks for pointing this out. I will go back and read more carefully. In the real world, if all clients must support mime how do non-mime articles get posted. I really don't see software developers who design clients that allow non-mime posting to bother with fully supporting reading mime. Why require this in the "standard", why not leave it up to the clients. We'll end up with a much of half hearted attempts at supporting the very complex mime system. This will greatly complicate the programing needed to generated a standards compliant client. Simple is better. Regardless, it does prohibit binary data in the message body unless it is MIME encoded which will break a large number of articles. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OK7tgC076673 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OK7t5u076672 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OK7sg8076660 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1530029933; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OK7nIS008157(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:07:49 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OK7nkC008156(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:07:49 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:07:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net>, Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BC5C5A.8060400@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC5C5A.8060400@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241607.47030.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 15:17, Steve Walker wrote: > > Henry Spencer wrote: > > I've generally ignored the yEnc business and will have to leave it to > > others to comment on it. I will note that there's nothing in our spec > > that says that news software can't have features beyond what we describe. > > It says that binary data must be mime/base64 encoded. It would help if you would cite the specific draft and section so that others can clearly see what specific text you are referring to. You also might wish to carefully read surrounding text to make sure it doesn't mention things like "future extensions", etc. You are of course welcome to provide *constructive* criticism; you might want to read the following RFCs and references first, though: [BCP9] Bradner, S., "The Internet Standards Process -- Revision 3", BCP 9, RFC 2026, October 1996. [BCP14] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [FYI17] Harris, S., "The Tao of IETF - A Novice's Guide to the Internet Engineering Task Force", RFC 3160, August 2001. [BCP25] Bradner, S., "IETF Working Group Guidelines and Procedures", BCP 25, RFC 2418, September 1998. [BCP83] Rose, M., "A Practice for Revoking Posting Rights to IETF Mailing Lists", BCP 83, RFC 3683, March 2004. [BCP94] Wasserman, M., "Updates to RFC 2418 Regarding the Management of IETF Mailing Lists", BCP 94, RFC 3934, October 2004. [BCP95] Alvestrand, H., "A Mission Statement for the IETF", BCP 95, RFC 3935, October 2004. [RFC1796] Huitema, C., Postel, J., and S. Crocker, "Not All RFCs are Standards", RFC 1796, April 1995. [RFC1958] Carpenter, B., "Architectural Principles of the Internet", RFC 1958, June 1996. [RFC3426] Floyd, S., "General Architectural and Policy Considerations", RFC 3426, November 2002. [RFC3439] Bush, R. and D. Meyer, "Some Internet Architectural Guidelines and Philosophy", RFC 3439, December 2002. [RFC3444] Pras, A. and J. Schoenwaelder, "On the Difference between Information Models and Data Models", RFC 3444, January 2003. [Errata] RFC-Editor errata page, http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.html and of course the primary normative references for our work, RFCs 2045-2049, 2231, 2234, and 2822. > That > breaks the yEnc standard and 65% of all Usenet posts. "yEnc" is not a standard. If you believe otherwise, then (after carefully reading RFC 1796) please cite the full Standard RFC in which it is specified. Note that nothing precludes a proper specification of an encoding scheme similar to "yEnc", and in fact there have been two Internet-Drafts (one written by Ned Freed, the other by Dan Kohn) which have attempted to do so. See http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0506.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0575.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0577.html Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJxq9G070072 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OJxq6A070071 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJxpju069874 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5OJxedG022068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506241235550.29844@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >I really think reducing our document's readability to its primary >audience, Using standard terminology does not reduce the readability of our document, and certainly not for our primary audience, who are people who are going to have to read and understand RFC2822 along with our standard. It isn't bedtime reading, it's an IETF standard, and it is an IETF standard intended to be read with RFC2822. Having to translate back and forth is what reduces USABILITY, which it the goal. >I can live with it *if* we explicitly apologize for it. There are other things to apologize for in "our document" than for using standard terminology. That's one thing we do NOT have to apologize for. "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >BTW, will the change, as proposed, still allow us to speak, informally, of >the "Date header", etc., or are we suppose to say the "Date (header) >field" everywhere? You may speak informally in any way you wish, but it is trivial to convert the current "Date Header" to "Date Header Field" and be precise in the technical standard. >Us poor editors will just have to spend an hour or so with out text >editors :-( . Ten minutes in vi did the trick. If it takes you an hour, you need a better text editor. What, do you have to find the right spot in the punched tape and glue chads back into place to make an edit? Can we get past this "it's too much work to be correct" argument yet? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJaIkP044373 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OJaI1j044372 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJaHni044366 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB6829937; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJaGZ6007826(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:36:16 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJaF89007825(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:36:15 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:36:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241536.12745.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 14:09, Steve Walker wrote: > About 96% of Usenet articles do not have the 'mime-version' > header. To require something that less than 4 percent is > currently doing is not wise. Nothing in the specification requires all messages to be MIME (as noted earlier by Henry). You may be misinterpreting the specification. I';; send a detailed reply to your longer message in a while. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJYJ40042152 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OJYJJq042151 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJYJVf042131 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E9D2995F; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJYD1c007801(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:34:13 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJYDXp007800(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:34:13 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:34:10 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BC4A82.5090705@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC4A82.5090705@nntpserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241534.10690.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 14:01, Steve Walker wrote: > I'm counting any article with a MIME-Version: header. Isn't this > header required for mime? Are you checking in a case-insensitive manner? are you including Microsoft-generated messages that erroneously put the field in a MIME-part header instead of the message header? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJTcfV036747 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OJTc7i036746 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:29:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJTb9f036723 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B0129909; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJTYF5007738(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:29:35 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OJTY28007737(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:29:34 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:29:29 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org>, Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241529.30674.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 12:44, Henry Spencer wrote: > I really think reducing our document's readability to its primary > audience, As you well know, that is not the intent, and it is frankly offensive that you are implying that that is the intent. > solely for the sake of consistency with RFC 2822, Ditto. > If we do it, then given that 2822speak is rare in the news world, was not > used in prior news specs, RFC 1036: A standard USENET message consists of several header lines, followed ... continuation header lines (beginning with a blank or tab) is ... are entirely consistent with RFC 822 (and 2822). Granted there are also inconsistencies. > is not used in the NNTP draft, Not our bailiwick. > and has not been > seen previously in our work, False assertion, presumably knowingly made (this has been discussed on list): draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-00: User agents SHOULD support on receipt and MAY generate MIME extension header fields, including but not limited to Content-Disposition ... This is the only header field definition that updates [RFC2822]. The ... > because we thought consistency was more important than readability". Again, this is absolutely not the case, and the assertion is offensive. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJBsHB017196 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OJBrl2017194 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OJBoYL017096 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21917238 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:11:49 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC5C5A.8060400@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:17:46 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> CC: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: >>MIME doesn't deal well with existing Usenet practices. yEncoding >>and MIME don't mix well. Considering a very large percentage of >>Usenet articles are yEncoded... > > > How odd that I read hundreds of Usenet articles a day -- and have been > doing so for 24 years -- and I've never (that I recall) encountered one. So you want to write a "standard" based only on what you personally use it for? Usenet users are a very large and diverse group. One person or a small group of people can't possibly know how everyone else uses it. > You might want to produce some numbers to support that "very large > percentage" part. Bear in mind that "Usenet" and "news" are two different > things; not all news is Usenet. Care to provide the RFC that explains that groups that you don't read are no longer part of the Usenet news system? And I did provide numbers. I'm running the entire Usenet news feed through a filter counting yEncoded articles. It's showing about 65 percent of all articles are yEncoded. > I think you should be saying "news" and not "Usenet"; I would conjecture > that those articles are heavily concentrated in hierarchies that are not > part of Usenet proper. Indeed, it would be interesting to know just where > all that yEnc traffic is. Mainly, alt.* of course. Are you claiming that this standard does not apply to articles posted to alt.* groups? If so, it should state that. I've been running servers for a long time, and I know that alt.* groups are without a doubt the most popular groups. They get more posts and they generate more reads than all other groups combined. To ignore them when designing a "standard" is unthinkable. > I've generally ignored the yEnc business and will have to leave it to > others to comment on it. I will note that there's nothing in our spec > that says that news software can't have features beyond what we describe. It says that binary data must be mime/base64 encoded. That breaks the yEnc standard and 65% of all Usenet posts. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OIbw4T080682 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OIbwoX080681 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OIbvM7080658 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5OIbsF1000450; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5OIbs5Z000449; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:37:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> cc: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624141506.29986A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > > What on Earth are you talking about? There is nothing in our drafts that > > makes a non-MIME article invalid... > > Section 2.3 MIME Conformance is mandating that agent MUST support > mime. Correct. The user-interface *software* must know about MIME, because MIME articles might appear (which is already true) and the user may want to read them or prepare followups to them (again already true). That doesn't mean the software has to use MIME headers in every article it posts. They are mandatory only when things like non-ASCII characters show up in the articles. > The spec says on one hand the minimum amount of headers is xxx, > but also says that mime is required... It says that MIME *support* is required in the *software*. That's quite different from saying that MIME headers are required in the articles. > MIME doesn't deal well with existing Usenet practices. yEncoding > and MIME don't mix well. Considering a very large percentage of > Usenet articles are yEncoded... How odd that I read hundreds of Usenet articles a day -- and have been doing so for 24 years -- and I've never (that I recall) encountered one. You might want to produce some numbers to support that "very large percentage" part. Bear in mind that "Usenet" and "news" are two different things; not all news is Usenet. > I started monitor the Usenet stream for 'yEnc' in the Subject > header which is required for yEncoding. I'm seeing (at least) > 65% of all Usenet articles are yEnc... I think you should be saying "news" and not "Usenet"; I would conjecture that those articles are heavily concentrated in hierarchies that are not part of Usenet proper. Indeed, it would be interesting to know just where all that yEnc traffic is. I've generally ignored the yEnc business and will have to leave it to others to comment on it. I will note that there's nothing in our spec that says that news software can't have features beyond what we describe. > So the argument is still valid: this proposal is trying to force > clients to use mime... No, this proposal requires that clients *understand* MIME, so they can handle reading of, and followup to, MIME articles -- which by your own figures, are already present in modest but significant numbers. There is no requirement that they use it in articles they originate. > ...and it would directly break the majority of all Usenet posts. No. See above. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OIW7J2074127 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OIW7Zk074126 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OIW6Fr074116 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21915744 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC530A.5050700@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:38:02 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sebastian Brocks <mail@sebastian-brocks.de> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> In-Reply-To: <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Sebastian Brocks wrote: > Steve Walker schrieb: > > >>You will not get the other 96% to >>switch to mime just because this "standard" is published. > > > The vast majority of that 96% is binary traffic, which does not > care about standards anyway. So you write something knowing no one will follow and call it the standard. Why don't we write a "standard" that follows standard practices. The software developers can, and do, follow standards. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to read/post at all. The problem is when we get 100 people each doing the same thing 100 different ways. This is exactly what a "standard" should solve. Provide a set of guidelines that everyone can use. To make a bunch of rules, knowing that the majority of people can't follow, even if they wanted to, is dumb. If you have plans on ignoring the needs of the single largest group of Usenet users, the binary posters and readers, you should specify that your rules only apply to the small-x text-only groups. This should be a "standard" covering "Usenet", all of Usenet, not just the tiny portion [insert person here] reads. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OIBqPL051446 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OIBq9G051445 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5OIBouY051274 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mail@sebastian-brocks.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Jun 2005 18:11:44 -0000 Received: from xdsl-195-14-218-229.netcologne.de (EHLO [192.168.1.2]) [195.14.218.229] by mail.gmx.net (mp021) with SMTP; 24 Jun 2005 20:11:44 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1840277 Message-ID: <42BC4CE2.40301@sebastian-brocks.de> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:46 +0200 From: Sebastian Brocks <mail@sebastian-brocks.de> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de-DE; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050404 Thunderbird/1.0.2 Mnenhy/0.7.2.0 X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> In-Reply-To: <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Walker schrieb: > You will not get the other 96% to > switch to mime just because this "standard" is published. The vast majority of that 96% is binary traffic, which does not care about standards anyway. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCvEzgPlwI4sEdWTARAlHVAKCC5FO2okom2cQFSZ9buXGLLuNuuwCdEeth ApMBBd9rAuRsAm/2tsWPiX0= =usTn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OI6vFx045758 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OI6v8d045757 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:06:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OI6s1P045596 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-243-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.243]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5OI6lgE001837 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42BC4BB9.6020408@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:06:49 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >>Since several people weighed in on the subject after my summary, we seem to >>be moving towards a rough consensus, and I want to try for a resolution.... >>Henry and Charles have continued to argue for the "news" syntax; I'd like >>to check that they find it possible to work with the "2822" syntax... > > > I really think reducing our document's readability to its primary > audience, solely for the sake of consistency with RFC 2822, is a mistake. > Especially since the usual news terminology is commonly heard even in the > mail community now. 2822 is a NORMATIVE reference. We refer to and require people to use it. The ENTIRE audience will need to refer and understand RFC2822. If our documents stood by themselves, your argument would have merit. But there is no way to understand it without using RFC2822. I know you advocate that the document should stand alone, but as written, it requires going back and forth. Doing that is a hassle. Doing it with similar words but different terminology is a nightmare. I made this point before. I do not recall any reply addressing the point. Maybe we shouldn't use RFC2822 as a base. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OI42aI042756 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OI425G042755 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OI40td042721 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21914738 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:58 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC4C72.7040903@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:09:54 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > I agree with Russ. Note that any message containing a MIME-Version > header field (N.B. "mImE-VeRsIoN" is case-insensitive) is by definition > [RFC 2045] a MIME message; RFC 2045: Good. Then my filter is checking in the correct way. It searches for the 'mime-version' header (case-insensitive) and counts them vs the number of articles that due not have that header. About 96% of Usenet articles do not have the 'mime-version' header. To require something that less than 4 percent is currently doing is not wise. You will not get the other 96% to switch to mime just because this "standard" is published. The standard is non-mime by GAUP and certainly non-base64. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHtio1034450 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHtiIq034449 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHth3c034426 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21914388 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:55:43 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC4A82.5090705@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:01:38 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <87wtok8o5t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: >>I installed a filter to count mime messages. Of the 75,000 articles >>tested so far, mime messages account for about 2% of Usenet articles. > > > I find this incredibly unlikely. How are you counting MIME messages? I'm counting any article with a MIME-Version: header. Isn't this header required for mime? If you have a better suggestion I'd be happy to adjust the filter and provide new numbers. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHnPTn027473 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:49:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHnP4x027472 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHnM3T027356 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21914154 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: <42BC4906.4070508@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:55:18 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > What on Earth are you talking about? There is nothing in our drafts that > makes a non-MIME article invalid. Use of MIME -- MIME, not base64 -- is > mandatory only when non-ASCII characters are involved, which is precisely > when it *should* be mandatory, if only to specify what character set is > being used. Usefor: Section 2.3 MIME Conformance is mandating that agent MUST support mime. So any client that doesn't post mime can no longer be called an NNTP client? You just killed hundreds of news clients. The spec says on one hand the minimum amount of headers is xxx, but also says that mime is required, but not all required mime headers are required Usenet headers. This is a conflict. MIME doesn't deal well with existing Usenet practices. yEncoding and MIME don't mix well. Considering a very large percentage of Usenet articles are yEncoded you are creating a situation that has no resolution. They will not quit posting just because >someone< says they >have< to use use mime/base64. Usepro wrote: NOTE: this corresponds to the range of octets permitted for MIME "8bit data" [RFC 2045]. Thus raw binary data cannot be transmitted in an article body except by the use of a Content-Transfer-Encoding such as base64. This completely breaks a very large percentage of articles. I started monitor the Usenet stream for 'yEnc' in the Subject header which is required for yEncoding. I'm seeing (at least) 65% of all Usenet articles are yEnc. Some yEnc'ed articles do not use the required yEnc in the subject line. These are not being counted in my numbers. The monitoring for mime is showing slightly higher mime counts during the day, it's climbed up to the 3-4 percent mark. So the argument is still valid: this proposal is trying to force clients to use mime regardless of the fact that very few posts are currently mime and it would directly break the majority of all Usenet posts. Steve. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHdiUn016279 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHdioX016277 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ID-77355.user.dfncis.de ([82.133.101.159]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5OHdgNs016213 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graham.drabble@lineone.net) Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (192.168.254.2) with news-to-mail ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:35:27 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution From: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:35:27 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns967FBD1E17EDgrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 24 Jun 2005 Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> wrote in news:Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net: > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> Since several people weighed in on the subject after my summary, >> we seem to be moving towards a rough consensus, and I want to try >> for a resolution.... Henry and Charles have continued to argue >> for the "news" syntax; I'd like to check that they find it >> possible to work with the "2822" syntax... > > I really think reducing our document's readability to its primary > audience, solely for the sake of consistency with RFC 2822, is a > mistake. Especially since the usual news terminology is commonly > heard even in the mail community now. I would agree here. We could change but I would rate consistency with news (past standards and current practice) as more important than consistence with RFC2822 and MIME. -- Graham Drabble http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh1646/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHMkaM096800 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHMkuk096799 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHMi1M096751 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Dlrt5-000CAL-9B for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: <JLVBkGnGEEvCFA7G@highwayman.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:21:10 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231332.23612.blilly@erols.com> <42BB02EB.5D14@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <Pq9$+$8D77fPiMKLZWZ+duknJ7> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >Usenet has been working quite happily for >many years now just by admins using their common sense when choosing ><path-identity>s. I am not aware of serious clashes that have occurred, >and if they have then they have been sorted out amicably (because it is in >everybody's interest to do so). It ain't broke, so it doesn't need fixing. It would also be unwise to put any existing servers in a position that they found themselves feeling that to conform to modern standards they should change their identity... Demon Internet (the first UK dialup ISP in the early 1990s) has used !demon! since before it was called Demon Internet or even before it sent news over NNTP. When an error was made with a new peering machine and this tag was omitted a number of customers (with simple single-user "leaf" systems who only swapped articles with Demon) started fetching articles and (trying to) re-inject them all. Because servers elsewhere in the cluster, generally, already had a copy of the article this went on unnoticed for weeks until occasionally the customer presented the article earlier than the peering machine.... and when the article was spam it tripped detectors and we found the problem. What I'm trying to illustrate is that path identities are not only important to the few thousand machines that peer news on a high volume basis, but these identities are nailed into hundred of thousands of end user systems. We outlaw (or deprecate) existing path identities, whether dating from UUCP or more recent conventions, at our peril. and to echo Charles, what was it that was broken ? - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQrxBBpoAxkTY1oPiEQKdBwCfW9YKLNtHHo+lH1VpFpjkDMSpNMkAn2zN 37kLVxhGScUvWYfb2MAC2K+H =aTDt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHJuHj093568 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHDk2H086808 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:13:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHCdSI086218 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DlrfT-00041b-HE for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:08:39 +0000 Message-ID: <oMP5F4mu6DvCFAPC@highwayman.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:11:10 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IILE42.3rt@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IILE42.3rt@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <rI3$+3Xj77$toNKLzyb+d+uNn1> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IILE42.3rt@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes > >In <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit >Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > >>[I've created a new ticket number for the "header" issue, because I'm not >>sure that's all there is to Bruce's complaint in #1031. I can't tell from >>what he wrote.] > >>The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents >>that derive their terminology from that (and coincidentally also allows us >>to define "header content" differently than "field body", if we need that - >>Charles wants such a term). > >There is also the argument that the NNTP draft, which has just passed its >Last Call, uses "header" as we currently do. That might well be fixed the discussions on another list suggested that it was likely to be fixed >BTW, will the change, as proposed, still allow us to speak, informally, of >the "Date header", etc., or are we suppose to say the "Date (header) >field" everywhere? I don't think a standard ever says anything informally! 'Date header field' may feel like a nuisance to type the first time around, but it tells the implementor that you're making a precise statement and, where it matters, they can check the references and remind themselves whether, for example, this does or doesn't include the field name, the end of line characters or whatever.... I think Henry Spencer is right and you shouldn't just dive in with 2822 language, but indicate clearly (apologise isn't quite the word I'd use for something that's quite understandable when you read, albeit a very slight pain to type in correctly) at the start that along with a lot of formatting detail some jargon has been inherited from 2822 #2.2 and that having a copy of that to hand is an inescapable necessity - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQrw+rpoAxkTY1oPiEQKFaACfQ7xlb2ECvLbocZVamaWwekGGWHsAoMUh PA6yhhxaMaL0T6w4qgBJNpee =Sw2a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHHQ4T090750 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHHP09090743 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHHOmD090601 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5OHHHdG064981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506240956090.19556@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >I think my point was that given that the colons in IPv6 literals are known >to cause problems, and so far, no prohibition or warning is in the text, >the standards writers (that's us) haven't exhibited good judgment..... While that may have been your intended point, that's not what you said. You said: >anyone who generates something permitted >by the ABNF even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text >is certainly not exhibiting good judgment. That 'even when' tells me you think it is explicitely forbidden to use ':' in path identities, not that we need to make it explicitely forbidden. We are talking about someone doing something based on USEFOR-04, not some unknown future version. >Attempting to return to the problem at hand, rather than the discussion on >how to discuss these things - John, can you educate me a little bit about >USENET feeds? I wrote: >... the same failure that would make the dead:beef admin an >idiot would make both of these people idiots. The point was that if the admin of "dead:beef" is an idiot for using a path-identity containing colons (which he is told is legal by USEFOR-04), then people who use IPV6 address-literal path-identities which can parse into other previously valid path-identities using RFC1036 parsing are just as much idiots, because the problem is the same. Whatever that problem is. And I think it was Russ who explained it. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHGgae089920 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OHGgd2089919 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OHGd1E089857 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2FB2993B; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OHGW5Z006659(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:16:32 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OHGU40006658(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:16:30 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:16:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org, Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624121606.28697B-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624121606.28697B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241316.10164.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 12:18, Henry Spencer wrote: > Although (as Bruce noted) this is pretty unlikely: RFC 1049 was fairly > obscure and not widely implemented. It's technically possible for a > non-MIME message to have Content-Type, but in practice, it's a pretty safe > bet that the presence of Content-Type means it's really a MIME message but > produced by broken software. Yes, and in the unlikely event that such a message is found, the RFC 1049 syntax is sufficiently different from MIME syntax to be able to determine which is the case. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGtheG069562 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGthlN069561 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGtgR8069555 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBEB61B65 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:55:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05878-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:55:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD6461AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:55:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:55:39 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: A Chair going on holiday Message-ID: <8BA795924A339D9BA3F9B554@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Just FYI.... I'll be on holiday July 2-16. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGsZGK068617 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGsZso068616 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGsYCm068600 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAE661B65 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:54:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05878-06 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3346E61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:54:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: Posters this week Message-ID: <017CEDEBBD6CD7D3AD040CB5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> 1 39 22.54 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> 2 26 37.57 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> 3 22 50.29 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> 4 22 63.01 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> 5 18 73.41 Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> 6 17 83.24 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> 7 12 90.17 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> 8 3 91.91 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> 9 3 93.64 Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> 10 2 94.80 "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> 11 2 95.95 Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> 12 2 97.11 kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) 13 2 98.27 Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> 14 1 98.84 Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> 15 1 99.42 Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> 16 1 100.00 "Scott Hollenbeck" <sah@428cobrajet.net> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGrNRg067773 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGrNTG067772 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:53:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGr2nl067578 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5OGquGS067151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506240948020.19556@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >> Ummm, ok. So what? Who has said it was? >You did -- Nonsense. I said nothing of the kind. I quoted a statement from Harald that we needed to come to a decision and pointed out that there was no justification for a decision to be different. >When you quote part of a previous message before your >remarks, the usual assumption is that it's relevant to what you're saying. I quoted the entire paragraph, which ended with him saying "we need to stop talking and decide." Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGiW9g059735 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGiWK7059733 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGiVpN059725 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5OGiSF1029323; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5OGiSCs029322; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution In-Reply-To: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624123031.28697E-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Since several people weighed in on the subject after my summary, we seem to > be moving towards a rough consensus, and I want to try for a resolution.... > Henry and Charles have continued to argue for the "news" syntax; I'd like > to check that they find it possible to work with the "2822" syntax... I really think reducing our document's readability to its primary audience, solely for the sake of consistency with RFC 2822, is a mistake. Especially since the usual news terminology is commonly heard even in the mail community now. If we do it, then given that 2822speak is rare in the news world, was not used in prior news specs, is not used in the NNTP draft, and has not been seen previously in our work, we need to include an explanatory note saying "sorry, we're using 2822 terminology, not the usual news terminology, because we thought consistency was more important than readability". I'm serious -- this is a big enough disservice to our community that it calls for at least an apology. I can live with it *if* we explicitly apologize for it. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGNxru035352 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGNxIc035351 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGNwuC035343 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5OGNtF1029104; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5OGNtmw029103; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:23:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues In-Reply-To: <008101c578ab$63316750$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624122154.28697C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Ruud H.G. van Tol wrote: > >> Most Unix > >> systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) > > No > > Yes. Try 'ping' for just one example of such treatment. If you read what I actually wrote -- which was more than "No" -- you'll see that you've misunderstood. I didn't say "Unix doesn't do that"; I said "Unix does that but shouldn't". Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGImpT029849 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGImfQ029848 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGIlZi029830 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5OGIiF1029069; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5OGIiEa029068; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org cc: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624121606.28697B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > ...the possible exception of Content-Type (in the absence of a > MIME-Version message header field, a message with a [RFC 1049] > Content-Type field and no other Content- fields is a non-MIME > message). Although (as Bruce noted) this is pretty unlikely: RFC 1049 was fairly obscure and not widely implemented. It's technically possible for a non-MIME message to have Content-Type, but in practice, it's a pretty safe bet that the presence of Content-Type means it's really a MIME message but produced by broken software. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGE1BM023943 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDwC6023860 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDvPO023808 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3144.8458.89 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCEN06109 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21493 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IILDBo.3M1@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> <III3B8.B1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:55:00 GMT Lines: 59 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 22 2005 15:25, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> In <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >There is no such thing as "too long" for a field. What was observed was >the result of inappropriate folding at 990 octets to stay within the >per-line limit (which does exist). Broken software is broken software, >and we should not impose limits which will be ineffective (a single-line >References field of 995 octets would still be broken inappropriately at >990 octets by the software in question), which are counter to agreed >upon consensus (at least without reopening discussion first), and which >run counter to established practice per RFCs 822, 850, 1036, and 2822. It is clear that "established practice" is not working (as we have both seen). Even if you carefully fold your References header, the next person to followup to it is quite likely to unfold it again. Just what went wrong in the particular case is not clear; what is clear is that it would not have happened if some pruning had taken place (though whether my suggested limit of 998 would have stopped it is not so clear). >> Nobody has queried what I wrote so far, but if you >> wish it to be discussed, then please ask Alexey to raise a USEPRO ticket >> for it, and we will do so. >The procedure should be discuss first, and change the document (which is >supposed to reflect WG consensus) only after consensus is declared by >the Chair. Since you are the one who apparently wishes to make a change, >you should request a discussion ticket. The text in question was written before the ticket system came into being. Frank asked for something stronger, so I wrote a text and published it here. It was discussed. People suggested wording changes, and they were made. Nobody opposed the general idea of a MUST limit on the overall length until you did so. So if you want to pursue it, then you should ask for it to be ticketed. It is clear that threading agents can manage perfectly well with only half a dozen references (the minimum proposal of 3 is tight, but still adequate). So the issues are: 1. Do we propose a definite limit, and if so what number? 2. Is that limit a MUST prune or a SHOULD prune? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGE04M023912 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGE0f8023910 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDxoj023841 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3145.8458.8a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:57 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCK406141 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:20 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21498 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IILGK3.44x@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:04:51 GMT Lines: 65 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >You have to treat Path identities as opaque labels; anything else gets >into way too much work to specify and implement, IMO. Absolutely so. But for human readers, it is useful to be able to regard them as domain-names and/or IP addresses (as the case may be) and to look them up in the DNS or in whois databases in order to determine the (alleged) route an article took. Also, in order to detect MISMATCHes, you will likely need to know whether the IP address the NNTP packet came from agrees with what the <path-identity> in the header says. But that does not mean you start doing DNS lookups and the like for every article. You construct a database of the IP addresses your peers normally use and the <path-identity>s they normally use with them. For sure, you may have submitted domain-names and IP addresses as seen in Path headers to various bits of DNS-related software for the purpose of constructing your database, but that is an offline operation so far as your main server software is concerned. And if your peer insists on using different forms of the same IP address in different articles, then you should seriously consider depeering him :-) . >> No. Frank is on recent record as being opposed to IP addresses in path. >> You seem to have agreed "Absolutely" to treatment of path components >> "purely as public names, not as IP address literals". Russ is also on >> record as being opposed to IP addresses. Now where is this supposed >> "benefit"? >I'm not sure that I've really gone on the record being *opposed* to them; >I just think they're a bad idea (which isn't quite the same thing as >saying that they shouldn't be allowed). IP addresses are used somewhat >currently. The text which en/dis-courages various forms of <path-identity> is currently in USEPRO rather than USEFOR (because that's where Alexey asked me to put it); I posted it here a while back. Currently, it puts IP addresses (whether IPv4 or IPv6) as the least desirable alternative, which seems to agree with opinions expressed here. But they _do_ happen, and I see no reason to ban them altogether. >.... I'm not seeing a clamor >from IPv6 sites wanting to put address literals into the Path header. I think that is because usage of IPv6 is still much less than of IPv4. But clearly it is going to take off one of these days, probably in the Pacific region first, because that is where the supply of IPv4 addresses seems to be running out. And then you will start to see them in <path-identity>s; but probably not for a couple of years or so. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDvHo023819 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDvan023817 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDuRe023779 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3143.8458.88 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:55 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCGf06123 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21495 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <IILE42.3rt@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:12:02 GMT Lines: 44 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >[I've created a new ticket number for the "header" issue, because I'm not >sure that's all there is to Bruce's complaint in #1031. I can't tell from >what he wrote.] >The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents >that derive their terminology from that (and coincidentally also allows us >to define "header content" differently than "field body", if we need that - >Charles wants such a term). There is also the argument that the NNTP draft, which has just passed its Last Call, uses "header" as we currently do. That might well be fixed after some negotiation with the RFC Editor, but i think we should decide here what _we_ want, and then leave it to the NNTP group to come into line if they wish (there is at least a month of leeway before that needs to be decided). I think the "content" issue is orthogonal to the issue behind this ticket. If we leave the terminology as it currently stands in USEFOR, then USEFOR will define and use the term "header body" (if it needs it - Harald has already pointed out inconsistencies in the one place it is used). USEPRO will define and use the term "(semantic) header content". If we change the terminology to follow RFC 2822, then those two terms will simply become "header field body" and "(semantic) header field content". Us poor editors will just have to spend an hour or so with out text editors :-( . BTW, will the change, as proposed, still allow us to speak, informally, of the "Date header", etc., or are we suppose to say the "Date (header) field" everywhere? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDuIr023796 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDuJH023792 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDt94023754 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3142.8458.87 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:54 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCZB06193 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21503 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IILIx0.4KM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:55:48 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 22 2005 15:18, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> In RFC 2822 an <id-right> is a string of characters satisfying some ABNF. >The grammar production named id-right is an ABNF rule name, yes. >> It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a <quoted-pair> >> is "invisible"). >No, the semantics are "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address)". I do not see where RFC 2822 says that. It is essentially the same as we have just been agreeing for the Path header. All of <path-identity>, <id-left> and <id-right> are "opaque labels", whether you initially construct them out of domain-names or domain literals, or whatever else. >> No, Mark made his suggestion (in the NNTP list, I believe) >Mark's suggestion was made here, and is archived in this WG's mailing list >archive at >http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html >> in the belief >> that he was describing a temporary problem that would be fixed in future >> implementations. >That is a false assertion; Mark specifically referred to a transport >protocol constraint, as his text clearly shows. Mark may well have said that on this list when he was a member of it. But he most certainly raised essentially the same point on the NNTP list within the last few months (as you may check from their website), and he signally failed to convince that WG. >> He was rapidly disabused of that notion. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDteg023766 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDtWY023765 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDswZ023735 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3141.8458.86 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:53 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCS206174 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:28 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21501 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IILHrr.4Dp@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231332.23612.blilly@erols.com> <42BB02EB.5D14@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:31:03 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Thu June 23 2005 14:43, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> But that's also not necessary for your idea, we can get this >> effect by saying that a <path-identity> is compared octet by >> octet (BTW, same idea as for a msg-id), and so it should be >> always created in the same way. >That's neither necessary nor sufficient for the purposes the Path >field has. The purposes listed in -04 3.1.6 impose first and >foremost a uniqueness requirement. It doesn't explicitly say so, but it is evident that it is necessary. > That in turn requires either >a hierarchical system (like DNS) or a central authority (like the >UUCP mapping project was supposed to be, though it never worked >well). But that does not follow at all. Usenet has been working quite happily for many years now just by admins using their common sense when choosing <path-identity>s. I am not aware of serious clashes that have occurred, and if they have then they have been sorted out amicably (because it is in everybody's interest to do so). It ain't broke, so it doesn't need fixing. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDsox023742 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDsL1023741 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDrLI023714 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc3140.8458.85 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:52 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCU806181 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:30 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21502 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <IILIBq.4H4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506231022.40145.blilly@erols.com> <B03DEFA85FA2EFE80C2BA1E5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:43:02 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <B03DEFA85FA2EFE80C2BA1E5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "-0000", as specified in RFC 2822 section 4.3. Yes, it seems we have been discussing something tht RFC 2822 had already resolved. As regards the wording you just proposed above, I would still prefer it to be like: Software MAY accept dates with unknown timezones and SHOULD treat ... Of course, whether some particular timezone is "unknown" is still dependent upon whether or not you chose to accept all of the <obs-zone>. As for the syntax and the rest of the text, I am happy with what Harald proposed at the start of this thread, namely removing UT and just leaving GMT as the only MUST accept / MUST NOT generate item. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDrF1023724 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDrAU023722 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDq6Y023713 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc313f.8458.84 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:51 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCJG06135 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:19 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21497 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IILELy.3wq@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> <3DB8D904BE1ED5493BF70027@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:22:46 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <3DB8D904BE1ED5493BF70027@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On onsdag, juni 22, 2005 17:23:48 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> >wrote: >While name-calling is not a good idea even when the person one is insulting >cannot be identified, anyone who generates something permitted by the ABNF >even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text is certainly >not exhibiting good judgment. >On the other hand, if the standards writers intended to forbid it, and >standard does not specifically say so, the standards writers are not >showing good judgment..... Indeed. I proposed a text in response to John Stanley that could be incorporated into the Message-ID section in order to point out the unwisdom, at the present time, of using a ":" other than for representing an <IPv6address>. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDplo023711 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDpuN023710 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDoRv023696 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc313d.8458.82 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:49 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCPS06159 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:25 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21500 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IILGz9.49J@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623102510.12767A-100000@spsystems.net> <42BADA9E.1070209@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:13:57 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42BADA9E.1070209@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Henry Spencer wrote: >> >> A bit of background you might not be aware of: in some earlier >> discussions (on other topics), it was surprisingly difficult to convince >> some participants that such accompanying text is actually part of the >> standard, not just helpful commentary or advice to implementers. >> >In a discussion on the References field, Charles wrote this on 6/13/05 >in <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> indicating that he considers notes >to have no normative effect. I don't think that Charles would >consider the main text not normative. Indeed. For sure I don't consider NOTEs normative, but accompanying text outside of NOTEs most certainly is. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDp0I023703 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDpaB023702 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDnYT023660 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc313d.8458.81 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:49 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCH406127 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21496 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <IILEBG.3u4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <courier.42BAC07A.00004598@mail.verisignlabs.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:16:28 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <courier.42BAC07A.00004598@mail.verisignlabs.com> "Scott Hollenbeck" <sah@428cobrajet.net> writes: >Area advisor opinion: after re-reading the working group charter I can >understand why this has been contentious. The charter says: >... I'm thus >inclined to believe that usefor should use the same terminology used in 2822 >where appropriate, or it should explicitly explain why different terminology >is being used and precisely where the deviations exist. For the record, our present draft does explain precisely the nature of the deviation, but it is short on explaining why. However, our earlier draft _did_ explain why, and that text could easily be copied into, or adapted for, the current draft. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDouJ023690 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDoNl023689 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDnkq023642 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc313c.8458.80 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:48 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCMB06145 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:22 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21499 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Our web site Message-ID: <IILGur.47H@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:11:15 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is incomplete. It's all there in mbox format, if you are desperate. I eventually got around to updating my Perl script to grab them from the Landfield site, and even managed to download a couple of months' worth. But next day I found the site down, and I have not been able to catch it up since. But I shall keep trying. And I was going to put the USEFOR-04 draft up at the same time, which is why that has never happened as of yet. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDo6f023676 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OGDoFx023673 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OGDmVh023632 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-123.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.123]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bc313b.8458.7f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:13:47 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5OGCFO06117 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21494 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IILDG3.3o3@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231047360.2820@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:57:39 GMT Lines: 21 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231047360.2820@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >While RFC2822 may have a 998 per line limit, USEFOR-04 has a 998 per >"header" limit. In section 2.2: > o Compliant software MUST NOT generate (but MAY accept) headers of > more than 998 octets. Yes that has already been pointed out, and I think we all agree that it is a Bug in USEFOR, and I hope Ken is in process of fixing it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFpvPh000109 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:51:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OFpvd5000107 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:51:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFpuox099970 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175CB29B6F; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OFpoJm005801(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:50 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5OFpnIC005800(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:49 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:44 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org, Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506241151.45406.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 09:09, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > > I installed a filter to count mime messages. Of the 75,000 articles > > tested so far, mime messages account for about 2% of Usenet articles. > > I find this incredibly unlikely. How are you counting MIME messages? I agree with Russ. Note that any message containing a MIME-Version header field (N.B. "mImE-VeRsIoN" is case-insensitive) is by definition [RFC 2045] a MIME message; RFC 2045: (1) A MIME-Version header field, which uses a version number to declare a message to be conformant with MIME and allows mail processing agents to distinguish between such messages and those generated by older or non-conformant software, which are presumed to lack such a field. Any message containing any message header or MIME-part header field beginning with "Content-" (case-insensitive) is also apparently intended to be a MIME message, with one possible but highly unlikely exception (details below); again quoting RFC 2045: MIME-extension-field := <Any RFC 822 header field which begins with the string "Content-"> MIME-message-headers := entity-headers fields version CRLF ; The ordering of the header ; fields implied by this BNF ; definition should be ignored. MIME-part-headers := entity-headers [fields] ; Any field not beginning with ; "content-" can have no defined ; meaning and may be ignored. ; The ordering of the header ; fields implied by this BNF ; definition should be ignored. Note that: 1. Any message containing any MIME extension field (i.e. beginning with "content") is supposed to contain a MIME-Version field in the message header 2. A MIME-Version field may not appear in a MIME-part header (it may of course appear in the message header of an encapsulated "message" composite media type). One or both of those rules are sometimes broken by non-conforming software. One particular large vendor of broken software is notorious for breaking the second rule. Messages can be categorized as: o MIME -- contains a MIME-Version field in the message header o broken -- contains any Content- field but lacks a MIME-Version message header field (but see below re. Content-Type), or contains a MIME-Version field in a MIME-part header o non-MIME -- no MIME-Version field (anywhere) and no fields (anywhere) beginning with case-insensitive "Content-", with the possible exception of Content-Type (in the absence of a MIME-Version message header field, a message with a [RFC 1049] Content-Type field and no other Content- fields is a non-MIME message). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFYMht080553 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OFYMwm080552 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFYLtS080521 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016FA61B65 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04530-09 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2938C61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:34:17 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <D3C9DE0888C24BC46E851B3F@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On fredag, juni 24, 2005 09:25:38 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> NEW: >> >> NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym >> for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows >> the terminology of RFC 2822. > > I suggest s/[RFC2822] calls/[RFC2822] and MIME call/ and I suggest > adding "and MIME [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047], [RFC2049], [RFC2231]" > to the last sentence. I'd also like to see an informative reference to > FYI 18 added, but for the sake of conciseness of the document, I can > live without it. I'd consider such a change to be at best useless and at worst harmful. If there was ever a conflict discovered between MIME and 2822 about what a "header field" was, this would make our "note" ambiguous. And if there is no conflict, the change adds no information. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFC5OW062249 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OFC5P1062248 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OFC2UY062202 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5OFBxF1028400; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5OFBx7A028394; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:11:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050624110303.27573E-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Steve Walker wrote: > ...I'm fully aware of the fact that you can have a mime message > without using base64. I'm also aware of the fact that most > base64 encoded messages are also mime... However, the reverse is not true: most MIME messages do *not* use base64 encoding. (Hint: every message in this mailing list is a MIME message.) > ...mime messages account for about 2% of Usenet articles. > This proposal is trying to declare the 98% of usenet articles are > invalid. What on Earth are you talking about? There is nothing in our drafts that makes a non-MIME article invalid. Use of MIME -- MIME, not base64 -- is mandatory only when non-ASCII characters are involved, which is precisely when it *should* be mandatory, if only to specify what character set is being used. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ODPm1x036535 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ODPmVN036534 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ODPmcC036524 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F2229910; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ODPjWg004773(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:25:46 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ODPhvd004772(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:25:45 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:25:38 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506240925.39887.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 24 2005 05:30, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > NEW: > > NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym > for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows > the terminology of RFC 2822. I suggest s/[RFC2822] calls/[RFC2822] and MIME call/ and I suggest adding "and MIME [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047], [RFC2049], [RFC2231]" to the last sentence. I'd also like to see an informative reference to FYI 18 added, but for the sake of conciseness of the document, I can live without it. > I'd also like to add two more definitions, but those are less important: > > This specification also uses the following terms: > > Header line - a line as defined in [RFC2822] section 2.1 that forms > part of a header field. I'd change "header field" to "message header [RFC2822] or MIME-part-header [RFC2046]". ("field" in this case is unnecessary because fields are delimited by line endings (not followed by whitespace)) > Header field content - the field body of a header field, not including > leading or trailing whitespace, or comments. > > I'm not sure whether the last one is what Charles wanted for his "semantic > content" construct - but I'm sure he'll tell us if it's not. I'd lean more towards "Structured field body semantic content" for the term, if we actually need such a term. I'd also change "or comments" to "with comments and their enclosing parentheses and any adjacent line folding and/or whitespace replaced by a single space character" [see RFC 2822 section 3.2.3]. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OD9FTf014940 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OD9FAV014939 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OD9DqP014829 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5OD9Bod017292 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:09:12 -0700 Received: (qmail 19996 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Jun 2005 13:09:11 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Cc: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:59:00 -0500") References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <87wtok8o5t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: <871x6rewaw.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > While I do not pretend to be a mime expert, I do know what mime is. I'm > fully aware of the fact that you can have a mime message without using > base64. I'm also aware of the fact that most base64 encoded messages > are also mime and they are not welcome on Usenet. Sorry, this is simply not true as universally as you're claiming. > I installed a filter to count mime messages. Of the 75,000 articles > tested so far, mime messages account for about 2% of Usenet articles. I find this incredibly unlikely. How are you counting MIME messages? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OBZ0Vl095624 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OBZ0OT095622 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.27]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OBYwTl095575 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5OBYrTo067292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:34:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <00ed01c578b0$beffcea0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> <42BAE705.6918@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Meta (was: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:24:58 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann: > Bruce Lilly: >> <ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> posted to this WG's >> mailing list and dated 27 Jun 1999 04:05:54 -0700. > >> Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is >> incomplete. > > Try <http://mid.gmane.org/ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> > for old articles. In the resulting URL ..../number add /raw if > you need the original header. Or for ...:number add :raw. Or > use your news reader: > <news://news.gmane.org/ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> And for the whole enchilada: news://news.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format (23000+ messages) -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OAude5061511 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5OAudSM061501 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.33]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5OAuaNT061408 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5OAuY50021424 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:56:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <008101c578ab$63316750$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: "Usefor Mailing List" <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623103642.12767B-100000@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:51:20 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer: > Russ Allbery: >> Most Unix >> systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) > > No Yes. Try 'ping' for just one example of such treatment. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O9UPfD073754 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O9UPq9073750 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O9UNUj073692 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8950861AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32042-03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C2061AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:30:19 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1043 "header": Suggested resolution Message-ID: <7BB5AA33B4F8EC38D59C0CE7@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Since several people weighed in on the subject after my summary, we seem to be moving towards a rough consensus, and I want to try for a resolution.... Henry and Charles have continued to argue for the "news" syntax; I'd like to check that they find it possible to work with the "2822" syntax.... I suggest the following text change to section 2.1, with the necessary changes to the places where the terms occur in the rest of the text: OLD: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. NEW: NOTE: Older News specifications used the term "header" as a synonym for what [RFC2822] calls "header field". This document follows the terminology of RFC 2822. I'd also like to add two more definitions, but those are less important: This specification also uses the following terms: Header line - a line as defined in [RFC2822] section 2.1 that forms part of a header field. Header field content - the field body of a header field, not including leading or trailing whitespace, or comments. I'm not sure whether the last one is what Charles wanted for his "semantic content" construct - but I'm sure he'll tell us if it's not. Comments? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GGpP017507 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O8GGs8017506 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GFpN017486 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337B161AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31098-01 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EE961B75 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:35:36 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1048 Injection-Date syntax Message-ID: <7A11E70C35850D512E2E732F@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have created ticket #1048 for this issue, with a "Discussion:" field of "Proposed no change", since that's what I ended up parsing Bruce's comment as. This may be uncontroversial...... Harald --On 23. juni 2005 13:19 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > On Thu June 23 2005 12:10, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> As USEFOR stands, the software MAY choose not to accept things in >> <obs-zone> (except for GMT) or it MAY choose to accept (some or all) of >> them. >> >> 1. If it has chosen to accept EST from the <obs-zone>, then it will >> interpret it as the offset given in RFC 2822 and, if it is a relaying or >> serving agent, pass it on and/or store it as received (for an injecting >> agent, I accept also the possibility that it might try to fix it). >> >> 2. The case that the sentence under dicussion has to cover is where it >> has chosen not to "accept <obs-zone>". So what does it do when "EST" (or >> even "XYZ") turns up? >> >> 2a. Clearly, dropping it on the floor immediately is one possibility, in >> which case that is the end of the matter. >> >> 2b. So we are down to the case where the software is written to be as >> liberal as possible. In that case, it will try to pass it on/store it >> (leaving it to the next agent in line to make its own mind up about >> accepting/rejecting it). But first it wants to do a staleness check, and >> for that purpose the porposed sentence says it MAY interpret either EST >> or XYZ as -0000. > > All of those things are protocol issues. I propose that we defer detailed > discussion of them to discussion of USEPRO. > > date-time appears in precisely three fields: Date, Expires, and > Injection-Date. > > Date and Expires are legacy fields, and will need to be interpreted per > long-standing rules. RFC 2822 rules are perfectly suited to that. RFC > 2822 generation rules mean that those agents still using alphabetic > abbreviations won't be conforming to the specification. Good reason > for them to be updated. Nothing breaks whether or not they're updated. > Of course, only conforming implementations can truthfully be claimed as > conforming, but there's no enforcement... > > Injection-Date is a new field; rules could be anything we want -- there > are few backward compatibility issues (the only one I can think of is > really an implementation issue (conversion of software which currently > uses the Date field)). We could: > 1. simply use the same RFC 2822 date-time syntax which is already > specified for the field in -04 > 2. devise something different > > As separately mentioned, we already discussed the syntax issue (earlier > syntax was specified in human-unfriendly, somewhat vague form). > > We do need to decide on Injection-Date syntax for the USEFOR document. > Charles appears to be proposing something somehow different from 2822 > date-time, although it's not clear exactly what. > > I propose that we use RFC 2822 date-time as it stands, for the following > reasons: > 1. compatible with existing parsers (same reason for the earlier syntax > discussion for Injection-Date) > 2. compatible with the legacy Expires field (practical server expiration > and history will likely be a combination of local policy, article > Expires field, and receipt date, possibly Injection-Date field). > 3. Human-readable (for tracing purposes) > > Discussion details re. injection and transport can be deferred to USEPRO, > however for purposes of making a syntax decision for Injection-Date, I > note that: > o Injection-Date is a new field. If we use RFC 2822 as-is, that means > that conforming implementations will only generate signed 4DIGIT numeric > offsets and (for that field and conforming implementations) the issue of > zone abbreviations arises only for the case on non-conforming > generators. I now yield further discussion of the treatment of such > non-articles to John Stanley. > o Given the new nature of that specific field, a simple note that the > date-time-related obs- constructs do not apply to it precisely because > it is not a legacy field could appear in some document (but I think > that would be redundant). > o We could, in the USEPRO document, give special leave to agents to use > a simplified parser for that field, one which does not handle the > alphabetic zone abbreviations (because it is not a legacy field). > Frankly I doubt that anybody will go through the trouble to write a > special-purpose parser given the ready availability of efficient and > tested date-time parsers. > > Regarding specific text changes to Injection-Date draft text, I propose > no change (other than what might be required to the sentence/paragraph > beginning "see the" due to other issues). I do not know specifically > what Charles proposes. > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GCcL017462 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O8GCl8017461 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GCia017448 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D15A61AFB; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30801-10; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249DE61B74; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:04:27 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1047 Path field delimiters - feed behaviour? Message-ID: <FCCA4304DED88D196ACB3066@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231648160.27129@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231648160.27129@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Attempting to return to the problem at hand, rather than the discussion on how to discuss these things - John, can you educate me a little bit about USENET feeds? --On 23. juni 2005 17:05 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > It would seem to be unwise to use it in IPV6 addresses as well, since > ::FFFF:129.144.52.38 and ::FFFF:129.145.23.23 are clearly two different > addresses but the same failure that would make the dead:beef admin an > idiot would make both of these people idiots. (I.e., non-conforming > servers would match the "path-identity" of FFFF for both systems and > feeds would be disrupted.) If, in a message arriving at the old system "here", there is a Path: header that says Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!not-for-mail and "here" does not know about any system named "FFFF", will any change in handling happen? Conversely, if a message arrives with a Path: header that says Path: there!::FFFF:129.144.52.38!::FFFF:129.145.23.23!not-for-mail will the two occurences of "FFFF" in the Path: cause anything bad to happen? Or is there some third circumstance that I haven't guessed at yet that will cause something bad to happen? I'd like to understand what you mean when you say "feeds will be disrupted"..... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GB6I017445 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O8GBiP017444 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GAKM017413 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9E861B65; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31090-01; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5E961AFB; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:57:31 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <B10F140AC0F3D930F9E31728@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506230956430.2820@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506230956430.2820@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 23. juni 2005 10:25 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> While name-calling is not a good idea even when the person one is >> insulting cannot be identified, anyone who generates something permitted >> by the ABNF even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text >> is certainly not exhibiting good judgment. > > I've read section 3.1.6 (Path) three times now, and I find no prohibition > of any kind against a path-identity that contains a colon. Since 3.1.6 is > the "accompanying text" to the ABNF I quoted, I would expect any > prohibition to appear therein, and it does not. What "explicit" > prohibition do you see in 3.1.6, or are you reading something other than > draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04.txt as found on the IETF website? I think my point was that given that the colons in IPv6 literals are known to cause problems, and so far, no prohibition or warning is in the text, the standards writers (that's us) haven't exhibited good judgment..... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8GAbS017422 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O8GAfS017420 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O8G8xp017397 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052E361B76; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30801-09; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0A661B65; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:16:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:53:42 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification (was Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <A7993877BAC3EE1C76525166@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231025320.2820@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231025320.2820@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 23. juni 2005 10:39 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> Version numbers are cheap (outside of the IETF pre-meeting blackouts), >> so we might as well just ship official versions (my opinion). I hope we >> have enough issues settled to make it worthwhile to ask our editor to >> emit usefor-05 before the Paris blackout. > > You do not understand. The issue is not "emitting" version numbers. The > issue is that drafts that the editors send to IETF as our work product do > NOT show up on the IETF-USEFOR website as the current draft. People who > join this discussion today are going to go to the IETF-USEFOR website to > look for the "latest complete draft", and they will find USEFOR-03. That's another problem, and I'm trying to get that fixed (I got the password for the website yesterday). My point is that I don't see a benefit from having two publication processes for WG drafts ("unofficial" and "official" drafts) when we have one process that works reasonably well, and is visible to the whole IETF community. Harald Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O5rD5A096404 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O5rDwZ096403 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:53:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O5rCDv096375 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21888179 for multiple; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:53:12 -0500 Message-ID: <42BBA124.7000409@nntpserver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:59:00 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> <87wtok8o5t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87wtok8o5t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > > >>Another example, requiring the use of MIME/base64 on Usenet articles is >>against decades of practice. As a matter, of fact we filter any base64 >>encoded article that arrives. Base64 is considered the encoding method >>of clueless and spamers on Usenet. > > > I stopped reading at this point. I used to spend lots of time educating > people who didn't understand the difference between MIME and base64, but > this is no longer a new concept. I've stopped. At this point, > particularly if someone is going to claim to be some authority on how > Usenet works, they should already understand this. While I do not pretend to be a mime expert, I do know what mime is. I'm fully aware of the fact that you can have a mime message without using base64. I'm also aware of the fact that most base64 encoded messages are also mime and they are not welcome on Usenet. Remember the problems when AOL released their mime enabled, base64 encoding, users onto Usenet several years back. > If you had investigated a random newsgroup on your server before posting, > you would discover that MIME messages are already the majority. I picked > rec.arts.poems at random, and out of 7,132 messages, 4,317 use MIME (61%). > In other words, they're already existing best practice, and increasingly > so. I installed a filter to count mime messages. Of the 75,000 articles tested so far, mime messages account for about 2% of Usenet articles. This proposal is trying to declare the 98% of usenet articles are invalid. I can't even imagine why anyone would even consider trying this. If you really like mime, suggest that people use it, but don't attempt to require the impossible. > Please check the rest of your objections against reality; you will find I'm bringing up real world problems. You can't claim to be the "standard" when 98% of the world is against it. Steve Walker News Admin NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O3RxSL087525 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O3Rx1m087524 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O3Rwm5087516 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-113-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.113]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5O3Rfgt014941 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42BB7DAF.1030505@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:27:43 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> <IIJpuJ.I3r@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIJpuJ.I3r@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > He should have known that ":" was a new feature of this standard, and that > it used to be a delimiter (not that anybody ever used it as such). The drafts are intended to OBSOLETE old standards, not make them normative references. > Just > because a thing is allowed in the format does not mean that it is wise to > use it. If something is allowed in the format but it is not wise to use it, there had better be something in USEFOR or USEPRO explaining it. This isn't "idiot-proofing". It is necessary, otherwise there is not a complete and unambiguous specification. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O2nL1j066660 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O2nLTs066659 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O2nKgx066637 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5O2nJwT028222 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:49:19 -0700 Received: (qmail 25430 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Jun 2005 02:49:19 -0000 To: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Feedback on proposal In-Reply-To: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> (Steve Walker's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:26:06 -0500") References: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:49:18 -0700 Message-ID: <87wtok8o5t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> writes: > Another example, requiring the use of MIME/base64 on Usenet articles is > against decades of practice. As a matter, of fact we filter any base64 > encoded article that arrives. Base64 is considered the encoding method > of clueless and spamers on Usenet. I stopped reading at this point. I used to spend lots of time educating people who didn't understand the difference between MIME and base64, but this is no longer a new concept. I've stopped. At this point, particularly if someone is going to claim to be some authority on how Usenet works, they should already understand this. If you had investigated a random newsgroup on your server before posting, you would discover that MIME messages are already the majority. I picked rec.arts.poems at random, and out of 7,132 messages, 4,317 use MIME (61%). In other words, they're already existing best practice, and increasingly so. Please check the rest of your objections against reality; you will find that many of them are similarly mistaken or based on misunderstandings of how existing software works. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O1KNae019705 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O1KNTv019704 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from nibble.net (mail.nibble.net [64.74.111.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O1KLSa019690 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nntp@nntpserver.com) Received: from [64.74.225.46] (unverified [64.74.225.46]) by griffin.nibble.net (Nibble Mail V2.3) with ESMTP id 21881513 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: <42BB612E.7020806@nntpserver.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:26:06 -0500 From: Steve Walker <nntp@nntpserver.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2-1.3.3 (X11/20050513) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Feedback on proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I just stumbled across your website/mailing list and thought I would share my first impression. First of all, I've developed Usenet software and ran commercial news servers for many years, so I understand the protocols well. While I haven't read the proposal 100% yet, what I have read very disappointing. From what I can tell, your work group is going to do more damage to Usenet than good. What is being proposed isn't Usenet at all. It's an entirely new protocol and to call it Usenet will just confuse people. At least call it UseneXT so people won't try to use a real Usenet client/server with it. I agree the old RFC's needed some modernization, but instead of working with the good and fixing the bad you are proposing a whole new, incompatible, protocol. Usenet was designed around the ideas of using the minimal amount of unnecessary controls. It is this limited chaos which has allowed it to grow and adapt into what it is today. Writing books of unnecessary and incompatible rules is going to fragment the software base. On one hand you will have the people that read RFC's like holy bibles and on the other you will have people that say, I've been doing it like this for 15 years and not going to change. Making rules that correspond with Generally Accepted Usenet Practices (GAUP) is a good thing. Trying to force rules that break GAUP will divide the Usenet community and software developers. For example, the GAUP on Message-ID length is less than 250 bytes. Formalizing this is RFC's is good. The software developers can then use a fixed size buffers and know that if the message-id doesn't fit they should drop it anyway. Another example, requiring the use of MIME/base64 on Usenet articles is against decades of practice. As a matter, of fact we filter any base64 encoded article that arrives. Base64 is considered the encoding method of clueless and spamers on Usenet. Requiring a strict format of the Path header is pointless and places extra CPU load on the servers. The same thing can be said by the dozens of nit-picking rules I saw. Usenet has always been about requiring the very minimum and accepting everything. You should be making rules that simplify software, not cause overly complected, buggy software to be developed. As a news server operator I already have to deal with hundreds of news clients. They can't get the existing protocol right, let alone follow the hundreds of new, pointless, rules in this proposal. In the real world, the client creators will not support this proposal as it's too complex. It just won't happen and there is no need for them to. The existing protocol works well, it just needs some minor fixes that simply life, not complicate it. As for the servers I run, I have no plans on making any efforts to make changes as specified in these proposals. That is, unless it becomes GAUP. If you are writing this to see your name on electronic paper, then you will succeed. If you are writing this to make a positive difference, I don't see that happening. Take a step back and ask yourself, "when this is all done and all the server owners have spent hundreds of millions of dollars upgrading software, what has really changed?" We still have a discussion system that grows faster than hardware capability. We still have a million articles of spam per day. We still have problems with article number synchronization on distributed systems. We still have stupid kids dumping 100 DVD images a day into a misspelled newsgroup that no one will read. Why don't you use your efforts to solve real problems, instead of creating new ones. If you are going to design an incompatible protocol at least fix something major in the original. Steve Walker News Admin NNTPServer.com Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O0K8Ow083820 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O0K8LA083819 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O0K7p3083812 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5O0JtF1018897; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5O0JsGS018896; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:19:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231647500.27129@a.shell.peak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623201728.18670D-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > >"There's no difference on the wire" is not the same as "there's no > >justification". > > Ummm, ok. So what? Who has said it was? You did -- you quoted Harald (I think it was) saying "no difference on the wire", and then *followed that up* by saying "since there's no justification...". When you quote part of a previous message before your remarks, the usual assumption is that it's relevant to what you're saying. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O05a1p069597 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5O05ZbZ069586 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5O05Y6c069457 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5O05SGS047601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231648160.27129@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >He should have known that ":" was a new feature of this standard, It should not matter if ":" is a new or old feature. If the standard tells him that he can use ":" in a path-identity and he does so, he ought not to be called an idiot. If using ":" in a path-identity makes him an idiot, then the people who told him he could use it in a path identity are just as much idiots as he is. And given the current USEFOR-04, we are telling him he can use it. >However, if you want to make the document idiot-proof, you could say: What I want is for YOU to stop calling people who do things that our standard tells them they can do "idiots". If Bruce is publicly flogged for saying something is "nonsense" (not a person, just their argument), then calling people idiots is certainly not acceptable. Since older implementations may still treat it as a <path-delimiter>, it would be unwise to use it otherwise than as a part of an <IPv6address>. It would seem to be unwise to use it in IPV6 addresses as well, since ::FFFF:129.144.52.38 and ::FFFF:129.145.23.23 are clearly two different addresses but the same failure that would make the dead:beef admin an idiot would make both of these people idiots. (I.e., non-conforming servers would match the "path-identity" of FFFF for both systems and feeds would be disrupted.) And yet, we seem to be bending over backwards so they can use these literals, but we won't call them idiots because, well, I don't know why. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NNmLEe053253 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NNmLNi053252 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NNmJpA053095 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NNmDGS040348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231647500.27129@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >"There's no difference on the wire" is not the same as "there's no >justification". Ummm, ok. So what? Who has said it was? Ohhh, I get it. You've ignored the part of the discussion where I pointed out that the differences from RFC2822 aren't fully documented in USEFOR-04 and the justifications for any differences are completely absent, and you think I'm saying "there's no justification" not because there is not a single word of justification but because of some irrelevant matter like "same on the wire" or something. You win. They aren't the same. Next non-sequitor? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NMbC1x077670 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NMbC6u077669 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NMbACh077615 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlaCf-0005KJ-Hy for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:29:45 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.86 ([62.80.58.86]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:29:45 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.86 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:29:45 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:32:13 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 30 Message-ID: <42BB386D.2548@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.86 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > Has the alt group reached article number 2600 yet? Found in <news:bv4mb1523ks706mkcobbtkpe71fpnu259s@4ax.com> : Xref: mephistopheles.news.clara.net rec.arts.poems:468350 alt:152780 Looking closer I found not one (out of five, then I had enough) article restricted to alt. X-Posts as a side effect of typos, comma instead of dot in an alt.all NG. > As to whether the group "general" remains a part of > Usenet is debateable. Maye, but not in an IETF standard, unless you have some technical reasons. Catching comma instead of dot typos isn't very convincing. | There are nearly 500 different newsgroups, with subjects | ranging from UNIX internals to politics to hobbies [...] | There may be also groups found only at your site. One | group, called 'general', is fairly likely to exist. [...] | Newsgroup names have one or more parts separated by periods. Quoth Tim O'Reilly 1992, chapter 7, Introduction to Usenet. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NMCwkU049268 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NMCv0O049249 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NMCqDe049044 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6322358B14 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5NMCq914063; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506232212.j5NMCq914063@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623174820.17113A-100000@spsystems.net> (message from Henry Spencer on Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:56:35 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623174820.17113A-100000@spsystems.net> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > >No, that part isn't a problem. > > Yes, it is. You may not care that things you've never seen are presented > to the world as if you agreed with them, but I do. And if I've seen them, and disagreed with them, and argued against them, and voted against them, they're still presented exactly the same way. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NLuodO031884 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NLuofJ031883 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NLuoW9031865 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NLucF1017237; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NLucLg017236; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:56:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231411570.17330@a.shell.peak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623174820.17113A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > >No, that part isn't a problem. > > Yes, it is. You may not care that things you've never seen are presented > to the world as if you agreed with them, but I do. There is nothing in a *draft* -- note that word -- which says that the entire WG agrees with it. (Actually, even a finished RFC doesn't imply unanimous consent, since that is not the IETF definition of "consensus".) To quote what I said about this a year ago, the last time you brought this up: That's the way IETF drafts work -- they are documents for discussion and review, not official products that the WG is deemed to stand behind. They get sent to IETF as drafts, as a way of making them available, not because they are "our product". Is the word "draft" so hard to understand? Why have two levels of draft process when one suffices? There's no need to have "tentative" drafts and "real" ones -- a draft is tentative by definition. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NLFpDA085595 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NLFpQW085584 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NLFn45085516 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NLFidG096323 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231411570.17330@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >No, that part isn't a problem. Yes, it is. You may not care that things you've never seen are presented to the world as if you agreed with them, but I do. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NL8QmJ076640 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NL8Qr5076639 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:08:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NL8Pnm076578 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710392996F; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NL8K6Q012134(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:08:21 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NL8FKu012133(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:08:16 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:08:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231332.23612.blilly@erols.com> <42BB02EB.5D14@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BB02EB.5D14@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231708.05213.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 14:43, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > I've suggested avoiding the problem(s) (performance as well > > as the IPv6 issue) by explicitly treating the path identities > > as not IP addresses. > > There are _many_ <path-identity> in usefor-04, usepro-03, and > already "approved" modifications of these texts. Changing its > semantics now is a dubious idea. Let's stick to USEFOR for the moment. > But that's also not necessary for your idea, we can get this > effect by saying that a <path-identity> is compared octet by > octet (BTW, same idea as for a msg-id), and so it should be > always created in the same way. That's neither necessary nor sufficient for the purposes the Path field has. The purposes listed in -04 3.1.6 impose first and foremost a uniqueness requirement. That in turn requires either a hierarchical system (like DNS) or a central authority (like the UUCP mapping project was supposed to be, though it never worked well). As mentioned about a year ago, I'd be happy to have the draft say "MUST be a fully-qualified domain name" [*], thereby avoiding the problems with IP address literals and UUCP node names, and satisfying the uniqueness requirement. As a nice side-effect, it precludes conflict with the newfangled "POSTED" and "MISMATCH" keywords (as those aren't FQDNs). > It's IMO unnecessary to invent any "canonical representation" > for this simple purpose. Add a general rule discouraging > domain literals, because that's the only case where it gets > really tricky, and it should be good enough. Merely "discouraging" or even "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED" 127.0.0.1 won't satisfy the uniqueness requirement. > The added colon for IPv6 has to be mentioned in a "differences > from 1036" section. Not if the difference (and associated backward compatibility issues) are removed. > And at the moment "dead", "beef", "cafe", "affe", etc. are no > FQDNs. Neither is "sn-us", but that doesn't prevent its use. > If some poor old UUCP host in the last world map 1999 > had one of these names it's tough but we can't change it. We > could document it if you think that it's a real problem today, > not only with some scripts trying to analyze historical paths. All things considered, I think requiring FQDN (for conforming implementations) is the best approach. > Inventing our own IPv6 path-id convention based on s/:/_/ is > too horrible to consider it. It might not be so bad it the use were restricted to literals used to document validation failures. Indeed, since underscore is not valid in DNS labels, it would avoid confusion between such literals and FQDNs. As IPv4 addresses can be mapped to IPv6 (RFC 3513 sect. 2.5.5), that can also be used for IPv4 literals for documenting validation failures, e.g. 129.144.52.38 -> ::FFFF:129.144.52.38 -> __FFFF_129.144.52.38 which is no FQDN. --------- * probably with an implementation note indicating that unqualified names may exist, that there is no established mechanism to avoid clashes, etc. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NJt0IA099941 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NJt0R3099940 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NJsx3S099926 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-174.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.174]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bb104c.952a.43b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:41:00 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5NJdYN25313 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:39:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21439 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <IIJpBq.I0A@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:19:02 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> <newsgroup-name>s of the following forms SHOULD NOT appear >> in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers in articles intended >> for propagation throughout the public Usenet. >[...] >> any <newsgroup-name> having only one <component> >As stated I disagree. Except from some random junk like "fi" >or "free" there are apparently valid NGs "alt" and "general" >on news.clara.net (checked today, only for non-empty groups). Has the alt group reached article number 2600 yet? Yes for sure servers do contain "random junk" and I doubt clara.net is the worst by any means. As to whether the group "general" remains a part of Usenet is debateable. If there is content in it, do the Paths indicate wide propagation? If so, it would be interesting to look at some other servers and see if they have essentially the same set of articles. But, "general" apart, I think current practice on Usenet is that single-component groups are not supposed to be there, and my wording was intended to reflect that. But, as I said, my wording is up for debate. And perhaps clara.net has a "mutual agreement" with a limited set of peers to carry some "unusual" groups :-) . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NJt0Aj099945 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NJt0tD099944 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NJsxeg099908 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-174.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.174]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bb104a.952a.439 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:40:58 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5NJdZR25318 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:39:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21440 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIJpuJ.I3r@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:30:19 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >"Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>If the sites "dead" and >>"beef" find that some idiot has invented a site "dead:beef", >I'm curious. Is this "idiot" an idiot because they are doing something >explicitely allowed in the USEFOR standard, or for some other unspecified >reason? He should have known that ":" was a new feature of this standard, and that it used to be a delimiter (not that anybody ever used it as such). Just because a thing is allowed in the format does not mean that it is wise to use it. However, if you want to make the document idiot-proof, you could say: NOTE: ":" has been included in <path-identity> so as to permit an <IPv6address> to be used. Since older implementations may still treat it as a <path-delimiter>, it would be unwise to use it otherwise than as a part of an <IPv6address>. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NInoRc029921 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NInobn029920 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NInma4029854 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlWeO-0007IT-TH for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:42:08 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:42:08 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:42:08 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:43:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 45 Message-ID: <42BB02EB.5D14@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> <42BAE705.6918@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506231332.23612.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: [I've reset the subject because we're back to the old topic] > The problem is that if we try to say something resembling > "IPv4 is supported, IPv6 is not" Oh, yes, that won't fly. It's much worse than omitting an empty IANA considerations, claiming that CRAM-MD5 is secure, and getting the IPR boilerplate wrong put together. > I've suggested avoiding the problem(s) (performance as well > as the IPv6 issue) by explicitly treating the path identities > as not IP addresses. There are _many_ <path-identity> in usefor-04, usepro-03, and already "approved" modifications of these texts. Changing its semantics now is a dubious idea. But that's also not necessary for your idea, we can get this effect by saying that a <path-identity> is compared octet by octet (BTW, same idea as for a msg-id), and so it should be always created in the same way. It's IMO unnecessary to invent any "canonical representation" for this simple purpose. Add a general rule discouraging domain literals, because that's the only case where it gets really tricky, and it should be good enough. The added colon for IPv6 has to be mentioned in a "differences from 1036" section. That's no showstopper, we have these IPv6 domain literals everywhere in the syntax. And at the moment "dead", "beef", "cafe", "affe", etc. are no FQDNs. If some poor old UUCP host in the last world map 1999 had one of these names it's tough but we can't change it. We could document it if you think that it's a real problem today, not only with some scripts trying to analyze historical paths. Inventing our own IPv6 path-id convention based on s/:/_/ is too horrible to consider it. A "MUST NOT domain literal" in the path might be worse, I still like "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI4Kfo079345 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NI4KNb079344 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI4JAn079175 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NI4DGS083795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231047360.2820@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@xxxxxxxxx>: >> There is, 998 is the precise limit (unfolded without CrLf) for >> the References and at least some news servers. >The RFC 2822 998 limit is per line, not unfolded. While RFC2822 may have a 998 per line limit, USEFOR-04 has a 998 per "header" limit. In section 2.2: o Compliant software MUST NOT generate (but MAY accept) headers of more than 998 octets. But just earlier: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. So the USEFOR limit is on the "header field" (as used in RFC2822), not the individual line in that field, which is what RFC2822 puts its limit on. In other words, USEFOR has a stricter limit on this than RFC2822. And that isn't just for References and a few others, it applies to all. >As mentioned earlier, we have a rather long-standing agreement that >there is no field length limit. Reintroducing one *is* controversial. I don't know about "reintroduced". I see it in USEFOR-03, so it's been around for awhile. I don't recall an agreement, but then, I don't particularly care if there is a limit or not, just that we don't look stupid by saying there is and then is not a limit in the same section. Which comes from the direct contradiction in a NOTE that follows: NOTE: There is NO restriction on the number of lines into which a header may be split, and hence there is NO restriction on the total length of a header (in particular it may, by suitable folding, be made to exceed the 998 octets restriction pertaining to a single header line). You cannot "suitably fold" something to create something that you MUST NOT create in the first place. But I mentioned this yesterday. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI3Ksp078133 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NI3KQW078132 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [209.55.107.55]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI3Jpc078093 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:03:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01LPR2V6O94G00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Message-id: <01LPSQW4JMPO00004T@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:54 -0700" <87r7etxkn1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87r7etxkn1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > > - Use the RFC 2822 terms "header field", "field name" and "field body" > > for the terms currently defined in USEFOR 2.1. > > The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents > > that derive their terminology from that (and coincidentally also allows > > us to define "header content" differently than "field body", if we need > > that - Charles wants such a term). > > Seen in this "camp": Forrest, Bruce, Richard and John Stanley > I think we should use the RFC 2822 terminology as well. Agreed. The RFC 2822 terms are actually pretty good. Ned Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI1hVn076901 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NI1hAa076900 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NI1hGt076884 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NI1WF1015095; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NI1WgD015094; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:01:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification (was Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231025320.2820@a.shell.peak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623135949.15037B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > Except, of course, that nobody here will have seen it before it goes, > other than the editor, so there is still a problem. No, that part isn't a problem. There is no reason to have a pre-draft review: the purpose of drafts is to make documents available for review! Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHvw1k073220 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHvwLt073217 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHvvAj073163 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NHvlF1015068; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NHvktj015067; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:57:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" In-Reply-To: <42BAF157.62E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623135454.15037A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Yes, I know this, it's no 2822 or MIME limit. Maybe Russ or > Henry have an idea. S-o-1036 mumbles something about a "length > of header logical lines", maybe that's the source of this limit > 1000 for unfolded References on some news servers (?) Most likely. In hindsight, the "if you really must" part of that discussion in son-of-1036 isn't useful: an injecting agent wants to know what it can depend on, so if the standard grants even reluctant permission to impose a limit, in practice that's a hard limit. > All I want is that this SHOULD not be the problem of the user. > Either UAs get it right, or servers stop to reject articles > with longer References. MAY (or maybe not) isn't good enough. Concur. The standard needs to state what servers *must* accept, and consequently what injecting agents can *always* generate. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHdgQx053316 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHdg0P053315 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHdfIW053231 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NHdaGS071460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification (was Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506231025320.2820@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Version numbers are cheap (outside of the IETF pre-meeting blackouts), so >we might as well just ship official versions (my opinion). I hope we have >enough issues settled to make it worthwhile to ask our editor to emit >usefor-05 before the Paris blackout. You do not understand. The issue is not "emitting" version numbers. The issue is that drafts that the editors send to IETF as our work product do NOT show up on the IETF-USEFOR website as the current draft. People who join this discussion today are going to go to the IETF-USEFOR website to look for the "latest complete draft", and they will find USEFOR-03. And after they've taken the time to read and digest that document, if they comment on anything it says, they will be told that "that's not the current document" and that they ought to "keep up" with the discussion. This is a historical problem on this list. We'd get a "current version" on the website, we'd go through a month or three of discussion where the editor would announce "I've changed the text to say X", and then perhaps "I've changed the text to say Y" (referring to the same text), or even just "I've made some minor editorial changes", and then someone who hasn't read every article and marked up his own local copy of the "current draft" would comment on that text and be chastised for not "keeping up". This problem was insolvable because the editor keeps the text in "several files" and it would require updating the website at five minute intervals (or so we were told.) Once a day was simply out of the question. And now we cannot update the website within three weeks of a draft (which we never got to see prior to it being sent off, by the way) being sent to the IETF as our official latest draft. THAT'S the problem. Emitting USEFOR-05 prior to France isn't the problem. Except, of course, that nobody here will have seen it before it goes, other than the editor, so there is still a problem. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHWbeC046335 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHWbkF046334 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHWaUQ046328 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCA42990F; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NHWWp7028230(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:32:33 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NHWSvv028229(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:32:30 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Meta (was: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:32:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> <42BAE705.6918@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BAE705.6918@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231332.23612.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 12:44, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > I suspect that would run afoul of IETF provisions requiring > > equal support for IP versions. > > It's also an odd idea, some problems for IPv4 like dynamic IPs > or private IPs behind NAT should not exist for most IPv6 IPs. Off-topic: some people aren't convinced that IPv6 means the end of NAT. > > If supporting IPv6 address literals is a problem, supporting > > IPv4 address literals (as address literals) is a problem. > > Sorry, I don't get this, yes, there are problems, that's why I > want the STD 11 "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED". For the fun effect of > screaming in a stadard maybe literally. The problem is that if we try to say something resembling "IPv4 is supported, IPv6 is not" it is virtually guaranteed that during IETF Last Call and/or IESG review somebody will point out the requirement for treating IPv6 the same as IPv4 and will go to the trouble of looking up the exact reference. It is likely to be a contentious issue. I've suggested avoiding the problem(s) (performance as well as the IPv6 issue) by explicitly treating the path identities as not IP addresses. And I've seen some support for that (we can debate "public name" vs. "opaque string" etc. if and when we reach consensus on "not IP address literals"). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHVfU0045430 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHVfOQ045429 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHVdff045372 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlVQw-0006VE-1T for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:24:10 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:24:10 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:24:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:28:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42BAF157.62E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> <42BAD83B.268D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506231226.05399.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > that's not a ticket item nor a declaration of consensus. 2005-04-27, Harald introduced this ticket monster later. If you want it to get a ticket number you're supposed to use a Subject: NEW: USEPRO 7.6 (4) ... Maybe a bit premature, usepro-03 still says "MAY", the new text exists only as proposal. But I know that it's "SHOULD". Then Alexey is supposed to find any Subject: NEW: USEPRO and create a usepro-ticket if it's a real issue. > The RFC 2822 998 limit is per line, not unfolded. Yes, I know this, it's no 2822 or MIME limit. Maybe Russ or Henry have an idea. S-o-1036 mumbles something about a "length of header logical lines", maybe that's the source of this limit 1000 for unfolded References on some news servers (?) All I want is that this SHOULD not be the problem of the user. Either UAs get it right, or servers stop to reject articles with longer References. MAY (or maybe not) isn't good enough. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHPa7v039259 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHPatR039258 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHPZU6039153 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NHPTdG008746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:25:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506230956430.2820@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >While name-calling is not a good idea even when the person one is >insulting cannot be identified, anyone who generates something permitted >by the ABNF even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text >is certainly not exhibiting good judgment. I've read section 3.1.6 (Path) three times now, and I find no prohibition of any kind against a path-identity that contains a colon. Since 3.1.6 is the "accompanying text" to the ABNF I quoted, I would expect any prohibition to appear therein, and it does not. What "explicit" prohibition do you see in 3.1.6, or are you reading something other than draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04.txt as found on the IETF website? Now, RFC1036 tells us that currently a ':' is a punctuation character and will be treated as a separator, and thus while it is not prohibited in the path-identity it will result in incorrect parsing of the path header field. I also see that UUCP does not prohibit colons in node names, although I found none in the last copy of the UUCP maps I have on hand. My archaic HDB UUCP system seems quite happy to know about a site called "ded:bef", and will spool items up for that site, but perhaps the failure will come when an actual transfer is attempted. So, calling someone an "idiot" for doing something explicitely allowed in the standard is patently wrong and offensive to every person who would try to conform to our standard. After all, "conform and be an idiot" is a very negative message to send. Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> jumps in: >A bit of background you might not be aware of: in some earlier >discussions (on other topics), it was surprisingly difficult to convince >some participants that such accompanying text is actually part of the >standard, not just helpful commentary or advice to implementers. No, what was hard to accomplish was to justify the ABNF and the text saying contradictory things. Your snide comment could be viewed as insulting, were this a group where insults weren't allowed. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHK3UE032918 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NHK31t032916 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NHK23K032851 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE862993A; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NHJxru028125(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:20:00 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NHJvWT028124(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:19:58 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: NEW: Injection-Date syntax (Was Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:19:50 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231319.52181.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 12:10, Charles Lindsey wrote: > As USEFOR stands, the software MAY choose not to accept things in > <obs-zone> (except for GMT) or it MAY choose to accept (some or all) of > them. > > 1. If it has chosen to accept EST from the <obs-zone>, then it will interpret > it as the offset given in RFC 2822 and, if it is a relaying or serving > agent, pass it on and/or store it as received (for an injecting agent, I > accept also the possibility that it might try to fix it). > > 2. The case that the sentence under dicussion has to cover is where it has > chosen not to "accept <obs-zone>". So what does it do when "EST" (or even > "XYZ") turns up? > > 2a. Clearly, dropping it on the floor immediately is one possibility, in which > case that is the end of the matter. > > 2b. So we are down to the case where the software is written to be as liberal > as possible. In that case, it will try to pass it on/store it (leaving it > to the next agent in line to make its own mind up about > accepting/rejecting it). But first it wants to do a staleness check, and > for that purpose the porposed sentence says it MAY interpret either EST or > XYZ as -0000. All of those things are protocol issues. I propose that we defer detailed discussion of them to discussion of USEPRO. date-time appears in precisely three fields: Date, Expires, and Injection-Date. Date and Expires are legacy fields, and will need to be interpreted per long-standing rules. RFC 2822 rules are perfectly suited to that. RFC 2822 generation rules mean that those agents still using alphabetic abbreviations won't be conforming to the specification. Good reason for them to be updated. Nothing breaks whether or not they're updated. Of course, only conforming implementations can truthfully be claimed as conforming, but there's no enforcement... Injection-Date is a new field; rules could be anything we want -- there are few backward compatibility issues (the only one I can think of is really an implementation issue (conversion of software which currently uses the Date field)). We could: 1. simply use the same RFC 2822 date-time syntax which is already specified for the field in -04 2. devise something different As separately mentioned, we already discussed the syntax issue (earlier syntax was specified in human-unfriendly, somewhat vague form). We do need to decide on Injection-Date syntax for the USEFOR document. Charles appears to be proposing something somehow different from 2822 date-time, although it's not clear exactly what. I propose that we use RFC 2822 date-time as it stands, for the following reasons: 1. compatible with existing parsers (same reason for the earlier syntax discussion for Injection-Date) 2. compatible with the legacy Expires field (practical server expiration and history will likely be a combination of local policy, article Expires field, and receipt date, possibly Injection-Date field). 3. Human-readable (for tracing purposes) Discussion details re. injection and transport can be deferred to USEPRO, however for purposes of making a syntax decision for Injection-Date, I note that: o Injection-Date is a new field. If we use RFC 2822 as-is, that means that conforming implementations will only generate signed 4DIGIT numeric offsets and (for that field and conforming implementations) the issue of zone abbreviations arises only for the case on non-conforming generators. I now yield further discussion of the treatment of such non-articles to John Stanley. o Given the new nature of that specific field, a simple note that the date-time-related obs- constructs do not apply to it precisely because it is not a legacy field could appear in some document (but I think that would be redundant). o We could, in the USEPRO document, give special leave to agents to use a simplified parser for that field, one which does not handle the alphabetic zone abbreviations (because it is not a legacy field). Frankly I doubt that anybody will go through the trouble to write a special-purpose parser given the ready availability of efficient and tested date-time parsers. Regarding specific text changes to Injection-Date draft text, I propose no change (other than what might be required to the sentence/paragraph beginning "see the" due to other issues). I do not know specifically what Charles proposes. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NH8IM2019439 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NH8IKX019438 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NH8GRS019412 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NH86F1014712; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NH868R014711; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:08:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506230954090.2820@a.shell.peak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623130550.13397C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > >As I said - this won't change the protocol on the wire one bit. But we > >need to stop talking and decide. > > Since there is no justification for the difference, why is there a > question about there being a difference? "There's no difference on the wire" is not the same as "there's no justification". All questions of terminology affect only human understanding of the specs; none of them alter what's on the wire. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGupeW008651 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NGupQg008636 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGun3J008507 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5NGufGS052136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506230954090.2820@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >As I said - this won't change the protocol on the wire one bit. But we >need to stop talking and decide. Since there is no justification for the difference, why is there a question about there being a difference? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGo6p7003960 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NGo6d7003959 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGo56l003939 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlUm6-00051y-Cu for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:41:58 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:41:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:41:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Meta (was: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:44:53 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 42 Message-ID: <42BAE705.6918@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > <ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> posted to this WG's > mailing list and dated 27 Jun 1999 04:05:54 -0700. > Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is > incomplete. Try <http://mid.gmane.org/ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> for old articles. In the resulting URL ..../number add /raw if you need the original header. Or for ...:number add :raw. Or use your news reader: <news://news.gmane.org/ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> >> There's something to be said for supporting IPv4 for legacy >> reasons but telling people using IPv6 that, sorry, they have >> to come up with a regular name. > I suspect that would run afoul of IETF provisions requiring > equal support for IP versions. It's also an odd idea, some problems for IPv4 like dynamic IPs or private IPs behind NAT should not exist for most IPv6 IPs. > If supporting IPv6 address literals is a problem, supporting > IPv4 address literals (as address literals) is a problem. Sorry, I don't get this, yes, there are problems, that's why I want the STD 11 "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED". For the fun effect of screaming in a stadard maybe literally. But the problems for IPv4 and IPv6 are completely different. BTW, the old "is a leading zero octal" question made it into an I-D (or even RfC), and STD 66 offers a nice unambiguous syntax. For a laugh see the "octal"-part in: <http://mid.gmane.org/42A39FEB.7EB9@xyzzy.claranet.de> Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGicDk097580 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NGicfG097579 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGiYS7097424 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:44:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NGiOF1014507; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NGiOX4014506; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:44:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <B03DEFA85FA2EFE80C2BA1E5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623124101.13397B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > So maybe we can change [to]: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "-0000", as specified in RFC 2822 section 4.3. That seems sensible. > It may have some value pointing out that we're not changing anything.... > shortening it to just "SHOULD be handled as 2822 4.3 says" makes the > document harder to read. Agreed. It may be more elegant in some sense never to say anything that 2822 already says, but in practice, it's terribly bad document design to force people to flip back and forth (and search for the relevant sentence of 2822; 4.3 is a page and a half long) even for small points. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGQWXu076813 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NGQWpJ076812 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGQUaQ076805 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-150.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.150]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42bae024.10d26.120b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:15:32 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5NGCSU22599 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:12:28 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21438 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <IIJowu.HCz@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:10:06 GMT Lines: 48 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> writes: >"Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> Software MAY interpret an unknown timezone as "-0000" for the purpose of >> comparing one <date-time> with another. >How else is it allowed to treat it? If it's not going to just drop it >on the floor for having an unknown zone, it's supposed to do a >comparison. Are we specifying that software is allowed to treat EST >as +4600 if it wants? As USEFOR stands, the software MAY choose not to accept things in <obs-zone> (except for GMT) or it MAY choose to accept (some or all) of them. 1. If it has chosen to accept EST from the <obs-zone>, then it will interpret it as the offset given in RFC 2822 and, if it is a relaying or serving agent, pass it on and/or store it as received (for an injecting agent, I accept also the possibility that it might try to fix it). 2. The case that the sentence under dicussion has to cover is where it has chosen not to "accept <obs-zone>". So what does it do when "EST" (or even "XYZ") turns up? 2a. Clearly, dropping it on the floor immediately is one possibility, in which case that is the end of the matter. 2b. So we are down to the case where the software is written to be as liberal as possible. In that case, it will try to pass it on/store it (leaving it to the next agent in line to make its own mind up about accepting/rejecting it). But first it wants to do a staleness check, and for that purpose the porposed sentence says it MAY interpret either EST or XYZ as -0000. I think #1, #2a and #2b cover all the scenarios we want to envisage. If you can think of a different scenario, then let's hear it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGQLBq076631 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NGQLib076630 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NGQK9m076614 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043812990F; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NGQEVM027691(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:15 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NGQC58027688(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:13 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> <42BAD83B.268D@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42BAD83B.268D@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231226.05399.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 11:41, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: [quoting C. Lindsey} > >> I have put the requirement for trimming in there (it was > >> optional before, though recommended in USEAGE) because Frank > >> asked for something stronger (and nobody has disputed that). > > > I recall no ticket item for the issue, no discussion, and no > > declaration of consensus. References? > > <http://mid.gmane.org/426F443C.6561@xyzzy.claranet.de> and many > others, scan the list for "trim". Thanks for the reference, Frank, but that's not a ticket item nor a declaration of consensus. > > There is no such thing as "too long" for a field. > > There is, 998 is the precise limit (unfolded without CrLf) for > the References and at least some news servers. The RFC 2822 998 limit is per line, not unfolded. > > The procedure should be discuss first, and change the > > document (which is supposed to reflect WG consensus) only > > after consensus is declared > > That's the procedure for controversial issues. As mentioned earlier, we have a rather long-standing agreement that there is no field length limit. Reintroducing one *is* controversial. > In that case > there was no controversy: Injecting agents rejecting articles > with too long References are bad for the users, therefore the > followup agent SHOULD get it right. Not only MAY. That was > the only change. Charles' text (quoted a few messages back in the (untrimmed) References field of this message) says "MUST". Presumably we have tickets so there can be organized discussion, a clear decision, and text reflecting that decision. Not something completely different. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG9BWt055570 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NG9BmX055568 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG9BbW055485 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5NG95HE016199 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 1325 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Jun 2005 16:09:04 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues In-Reply-To: <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:24 -0400") References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87k6klvyvz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5NG9BbW055559 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Thu June 23 2005 10:30, Russ Allbery wrote: >> That depends on your implementation of address conversion. Most Unix >> systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) >> (Which just goes to illustrate your point.) > Actually, my point was that *IF* one allows treatment of path components > as IP address literals, *THEN* a simple textual comparison is > insufficient *AND THEREFORE* there will be a performance penalty. I > don't know of any Unix (or other) systems that would treat > "123.45.67.89" and "123.045.67.89" as equivalent as text. I agree with this. >> I'm not sure that I've really gone on the record being *opposed* to >> them; I just think they're a bad idea (which isn't quite the same thing >> as saying that they shouldn't be allowed). IP addresses are used >> somewhat currently. > *As* IP address literals (with eliding leading zeroes, reverse lookup to > check against known names, etc.)? Or as textual labels? As textual labels. > Reference: > "What are you talking about? I've been opposed to using IP addresses in > the Path except for entries that fail validation since the beginning, and > I've never been worried about long Path headers." > from message <ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> posted to this WG's > mailing list and dated 27 Jun 1999 04:05:54 -0700. > Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is incomplete. > Apologies if I have unintentionally misinterpreted your position, Russ. You haven't, really; there are just various definitions of "opposed" happening. I don't think IP addresses belong in the Path header; IP addresses are, among other things, too transitory and too difficult to trace compared to good textual names. *However*, there are some situations where using the IP address as a Path identity might be a reasonable choice, or there might be some reason why one really wants an IP address not as a Path identity for optimization but rather for trace information (such as, as mentioned, including additional trace information for Path mismatches -- IPv6 *is* a problem for that, actually). Although, that being said, it's worth noting that nearly all of my opinions on how best to write these documents have changed since 1999; I was naive and far too optimistic about some things six years ago, and in many cases have changed my opinion completely. > I suspect that would run afoul of IETF provisions requiring equal > support for IP versions. If supporting IPv6 address literals is a > problem, supporting IPv4 address literals (as address literals) is a > problem. Provisions for legacy support may well be exempt from those sorts of rules, if that's the only reason why IP addresses are supported. (But that might require some other solution to the tracing problem.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG4dET050539 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NFq74Z039278 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFq6Z2039271 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-113-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.113]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5NFpugE009563 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42BADA9E.1070209@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:51:58 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623102510.12767A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623102510.12767A-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >>...anyone who generates something permitted by the ABNF >>even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text is certainly >>not exhibiting good judgment. > > > A bit of background you might not be aware of: in some earlier > discussions (on other topics), it was surprisingly difficult to convince > some participants that such accompanying text is actually part of the > standard, not just helpful commentary or advice to implementers. > In a discussion on the References field, Charles wrote this on 6/13/05 in <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> indicating that he considers notes to have no normative effect. I don't think that Charles would consider the main text not normative. > If all References headers are constructed according to the preceding > paragraphs, then circular references cannot arise. If, by some accident, > one does arise, then "garbage in, garbage out" applies as usual. > > But that paragpraph is just a NOTE, so it has no normative effect (and I > would prefer it to have been said in USEFOR - see my reply to Forrest). > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG12Om047541 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:01:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NG12PV047540 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:01:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG10Vw047513 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlU1X-0001Tx-6o for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:53:51 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:53:51 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:53:51 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:59:19 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42BADC57.37FB@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I'm tempted to invoke the decision making procedure of > RFC 3929 section 4.4 and flip a coin... It only irritates me if somebody insists on adding "field" in a perfectly clear context like "Date header". Otherwise Bruce brainwashed me enough to use the 2822-terminology, so it's more like "moo" than "yes" or "no" in my case. Removing me and adding Russ & Scott you get a 2:6 for Bruce and his "hacker slang". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG0BrW046732 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NG0Bex046731 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NG0AcZ046716 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4FF29939; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NG06Bw027422(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:07 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NG03cT027420(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:00:04 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:59:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231159.56436.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 10:17, Bruce Lilly wrote: > colon delimiter) is interpreted as a host name, and an upstream neighbor > of a site with such a host name will not receive such articles *at all*, > nor will sites downstream of the named host who are dependent of that host > for a feed of the affected newsgroups and/or distributions. Correction: the upstream neighbor won't send, and the named site (and its downstream dependents) won't receive the articles. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFjbWq031661 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NFjb5u031660 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFjaoM031638 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlTmw-0006ZP-GO for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:38:46 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.238]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:38:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:38:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:41:47 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 33 Message-ID: <42BAD83B.268D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> <III3B8.B1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-238.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> I have put the requirement for trimming in there (it was >> optional before, though recommended in USEAGE) because Frank >> asked for something stronger (and nobody has disputed that). > I recall no ticket item for the issue, no discussion, and no > declaration of consensus. References? <http://mid.gmane.org/426F443C.6561@xyzzy.claranet.de> and many others, scan the list for "trim". > There is no such thing as "too long" for a field. There is, 998 is the precise limit (unfolded without CrLf) for the References and at least some news servers. We have some text around this magic number, e.g. the 1+2=3 msg-ids in the References were chosen to be below this limit in the worst case, 764 = 3*250+2+12, 12=length('References: '). It also works for 974 = 3*(64+1+255)+14, discussed months ago. > The procedure should be discuss first, and change the > document (which is supposed to reflect WG consensus) only > after consensus is declared That's the procedure for controversial issues. In that case there was no controversy: Injecting agents rejecting articles with too long References are bad for the users, therefore the followup agent SHOULD get it right. Not only MAY. That was the only change. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFQe6Q011260 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NFQet1011259 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFQeAP011243 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D72129ADD; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NFQZtL027114(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:35 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NFQVMH027113(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:33 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:26:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231126.26233.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5NFQeAP011254 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 10:30, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > > An IP address literal (any version) in path would have to be treated > > specially for the widely-implemented purpose of determining if an > > article should be propagated to neighbors. 123.45.67.89 and > > 123.045.67.89 are different bits of text, but equivalent IP address > > literals. > > That depends on your implementation of address conversion. Most Unix > systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) > (Which just goes to illustrate your point.) Actually, my point was that *IF* one allows treatment of path components as IP address literals, *THEN* a simple textual comparison is insufficient *AND THEREFORE* there will be a performance penalty. I don't know of any Unix (or other) systems that would treat "123.45.67.89" and "123.045.67.89" as equivalent as text. > You have to treat Path identities as opaque labels; anything else gets > into way too much work to specify and implement, IMO. It appears that we're agreed that treatment as IP address literals is "way too much work". We might differ regarding "opaque labels" vs. "public names". > I'm not sure that I've really gone on the record being *opposed* to them; > I just think they're a bad idea (which isn't quite the same thing as > saying that they shouldn't be allowed). IP addresses are used somewhat > currently. *As* IP address literals (with eliding leading zeroes, reverse lookup to check against known names, etc.)? Or as textual labels? Reference: "What are you talking about? I've been opposed to using IP addresses in the Path except for entries that fail validation since the beginning, and I've never been worried about long Path headers." from message <ylemixkinh.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> posted to this WG's mailing list and dated 27 Jun 1999 04:05:54 -0700. Unfortunately the online WG mailing list archive is incomplete. Apologies if I have unintentionally misinterpreted your position, Russ. > There's something to be said for supporting IPv4 for legacy reasons but > telling people using IPv6 that, sorry, they have to come up with a regular > name. I suspect that would run afoul of IETF provisions requiring equal support for IP versions. If supporting IPv6 address literals is a problem, supporting IPv4 address literals (as address literals) is a problem. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFIjkr002894 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NFIgGH002742 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:18:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFIbhW002541 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5NFIajs003048 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:18:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 31230 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Jun 2005 15:18:36 -0000 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623105717.12767D-100000@spsystems.net> (Henry Spencer's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:48 -0400 (EDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623105717.12767D-100000@spsystems.net> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: <877jglxfsj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: >> "Just send eight" is common in world-wide newsgroups just as much as it >> is in more limited hierarchies. That issue is not related to >> cooperating subnets and the concept of cooperating subnets is not >> particularly helpful in resolving or working around it. > Sure it is. A cooperating subnet can establish a standard convention on > just which 8-bit character set is in use. No such convention is > possible in a worldwide standard; some form of character-set identifier > in the article is essential. Establishing such a convention is exactly how just-send-eight is being handled in world-wide newsgroups right now, and it works about as well in practice as I'd expect it to work with a cooperating subnet. I really don't see the difference. In both cases, you encounter exactly the same problems with having to custom-configure otherwise general software. See the character set guessing code in Gnus, which maps unknown character sets to different local character sets based on the newsgroup hierarchy. This is exactly the same as what would be needed for a cooperating subnet; the benefits and problems are pretty much exactly identical. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFCnuD096118 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NFCnUq096117 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NFCl2x096082 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBF761B70; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:12:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24220-01; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:12:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F0361AF3; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:12:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:12:44 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Cc: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <B03DEFA85FA2EFE80C2BA1E5@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506231022.40145.blilly@erols.com> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506231022.40145.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 23, 2005 10:22:37 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > 2822, in discussion of obs-zone, says: > > Other multi-character (usually between 3 and 5) alphabetic time zones > have been used in Internet messages. Any such time zone whose > meaning is not known SHOULD be considered equivalent to "-0000" > unless there is out-of-band information confirming their meaning. > > Aside from "+" vs. "-", do you believe that there is some difference in > the meaning of the text from the above 2822 quote? I didn't remember that particular piece of 2822. Now that I read it - no, I don't think there is a difference. Since Dan Bernstein's "-0000" got accepted to the degree that it is used here, I think pointing to this section (2822 section 4.3) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. So maybe we can change: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "+0000". To: Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such timezones as equivalent to "-0000", as specified in RFC 2822 section 4.3. It may have some value pointing out that we're not changing anything.... shortening it to just "SHOULD be handled as 2822 4.3 says" makes the document harder to read. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NF306B085235 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NF30W1085234 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NF2wf9085213 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NF2mF1013235; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NF2mv0013234; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <87psukublm.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623105717.12767D-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Except that it *can't* be, because practices which we *cannot* endorse > > as the worldwide standard are common in some of those cooperating > > subnets -- for example, the "just send eight" approach... > > "Just send eight" is common in world-wide newsgroups just as much as it is > in more limited hierarchies. That issue is not related to cooperating > subnets and the concept of cooperating subnets is not particularly helpful > in resolving or working around it. Sure it is. A cooperating subnet can establish a standard convention on just which 8-bit character set is in use. No such convention is possible in a worldwide standard; some form of character-set identifier in the article is essential. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEnDNw070818 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEnDWh070815 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEnBQ5070768 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C252993B; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEn6br026837(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:49:06 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEn2f7026836(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:49:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:48:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231048.57420.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 09:17, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > - Use the RFC 2822 terms "header field", "field name" and "field body" for > the terms currently defined in USEFOR 2.1. > > The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents > that derive their terminology from that [...] > Are there others than the 7 individuals above who have a strong opinion one > way or the other, or are there people among the 7 individuals who feel that > I've mischaracterized their position? As I have tried to make clear, the issue goes beyond "RFC 2822 and documents that derive their terminology from that": o The suggestion is consistent with the Internet user's glossary (FYI 18) o It facilitates understanding of the normative references which must themselves be understood by implementers (since that is the meaning of "normative") o It is terminology used in the MIME documents, which are independent of 2822 and which are themselves normative references. See: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0827.html o It is strongly advocated by the Internet Architecture RFC (1958) section 3.13. > As I said - this won't change the protocol on the wire one bit. True, but the WG's charter is to produce IETF Standards Track specifications, and that itself is a point in favor of using consistent standard terminology as opposed to "colloquial usage". If the argument in favor were based solely on 2822 it would be a weaker argument than it is. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEkriS068154 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEkrdt068137 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEkqni068120 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NEkgF1013121; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NEkgOK013120; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues In-Reply-To: <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623103642.12767B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > ...123.45.67.89 and > > 123.045.67.89 are different bits of text, but equivalent IP address > > literals. > > That depends on your implementation of address conversion. Most Unix > systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) No, they are unquestionably equivalent -- this notation for IP addresses is known as "dotted decimal" (see, e.g., RFC 1123), not "dotted decimal, octal, or hex". RFC 1166, in particular, explicitly states that 128.009.000.032 and 128.9.0.32 are equivalent. (I had cause to do some research on this some years ago on another project.) The Unix implementation's interpretation of leading zeros is simply wrong. > You have to treat Path identities as opaque labels; anything else gets > into way too much work to specify and implement, IMO. Now this, I concur on. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEY7WS054183 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEY7EQ054180 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:34:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEY6hs054163 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NEWtF1012808; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NEWtvs012807; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues In-Reply-To: <3DB8D904BE1ED5493BF70027@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623102510.12767A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > ...anyone who generates something permitted by the ABNF > even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text is certainly > not exhibiting good judgment. A bit of background you might not be aware of: in some earlier discussions (on other topics), it was surprisingly difficult to convince some participants that such accompanying text is actually part of the standard, not just helpful commentary or advice to implementers. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEUAnR050150 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEUA1j050147 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEU98j050138 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5NEU8FU008809 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:30:08 -0700 Received: (qmail 28964 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Jun 2005 14:30:08 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues In-Reply-To: <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:17:03 -0400") References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:30:08 -0700 Message-ID: <87fyv9xi1b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > An IP address literal (any version) in path would have to be treated > specially for the widely-implemented purpose of determining if an > article should be propagated to neighbors. 123.45.67.89 and > 123.045.67.89 are different bits of text, but equivalent IP address > literals. That depends on your implementation of address conversion. Most Unix systems will treat 123.045.67.89 as equivalent to 123.37.67.89. :) (Which just goes to illustrate your point.) > IPv6 is much more complex as there are literally dozens of ways to > represent a given IPv6 literal. A neighbor might not be known by IP > address but by name, so treatment if IP address literals would involve a > DNS lookup in in-addr.arpa. You have to treat Path identities as opaque labels; anything else gets into way too much work to specify and implement, IMO. > No. Frank is on recent record as being opposed to IP addresses in path. > You seem to have agreed "Absolutely" to treatment of path components > "purely as public names, not as IP address literals". Russ is also on > record as being opposed to IP addresses. Now where is this supposed > "benefit"? I'm not sure that I've really gone on the record being *opposed* to them; I just think they're a bad idea (which isn't quite the same thing as saying that they shouldn't be allowed). IP addresses are used somewhat currently. There's something to be said for supporting IPv4 for legacy reasons but telling people using IPv6 that, sorry, they have to come up with a regular name. > On Wed June 22 2005 17:26, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> So you would rather throw out a much needed facility than put up with a >> rather improbable minor inconvenience? Please come and join us in the >> Real World for a change. > Please support your "much-needed" assertion. Yeah, I'd like to see some support for that too. I'm not seeing a clamor from IPv6 sites wanting to put address literals into the Path header. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEMphX042603 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEMp8i042602 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEMoIa042572 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6444329AD1; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEMlQr026612(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:22:47 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEMj1O026611(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:22:45 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:22:37 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net>, Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231022.40145.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 23 2005 07:17, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Note that the following times: > > 12:00:00 +0000 > 12:00:00 -0000 > 08:00:00 -0400 > > are all equal according to RFC 2822. Yes. > -0000 means "I'm not telling you my > local timezone", not "I'm uncertain about the time". The actual 2822 text is: Though "-0000" also indicates Universal Time, it is used to indicate that the time was generated on a system that may be in a local time zone other than Universal Time and therefore indicates that the date-time contains no information about the local time zone. > The text proposed says that the following timezone: > > 12:00:00 NONSENSE > > can also be considered equal to the above, if one chooses to accept it at > all. 2822, in discussion of obs-zone, says: Other multi-character (usually between 3 and 5) alphabetic time zones have been used in Internet messages. Any such time zone whose meaning is not known SHOULD be considered equivalent to "-0000" unless there is out-of-band information confirming their meaning. Aside from "+" vs. "-", do you believe that there is some difference in the meaning of the text from the above 2822 quote? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEHUuw036686 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEHUKs036683 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEHTPF036540 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7505529910; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEHM9D026543(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:17:22 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NEHEQU026542(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:17:19 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:17:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506231017.08753.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 22 2005 17:26, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Fri June 17 2005 14:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > >> Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> > >> > Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad > >> > Thing to use in an <id-right>. > > >Frank has a valid point; 127.0.0.1, 192.168.0.1, 10.0.0.1, > >172.16.0.1, 192.0.0.1, 224.0.0.1, 169.254.0.1, and many similar > >IP address literals lack the uniqueness characteristic necessary > >for some uses (including msg-id domain lierals). > > Indeed, there are lots of stupid domain literals that should not be used Precisely what is the purpose of the word "stupid" in your remarks? [colon in path components (currently (1036) a delimiter)] > >> It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News > >> monster in the case of IPv6 colons. > > >It breaks C news and INN as well. Moreover, as recently reaffirmed > >by Russ, INN has no special treatment of numeric-plus-dots names in > >the Path field due to severe performance issues associated with > >such special treatment. > > I do not recall that there was any performance issue. They are just a > string of characters like any other <path-identity>. If, and only if, there is an explicit statement that the components are names, not IP address literals. As noted elsewhere, the -04 USEFOR draft text seems to be acceptable, but might benefit from clarification. If treated as address literals, there are several severe performance penalties... > >.... Russ has noted that DNS lookups can take quite > >a long time. The implications for path field components is clear: > >they have to be treated purely as public names, not as IP address > >literals. > > Absolutely. But I don't expect DNS lookups for <path-identity>s on a > routine basis An IP address literal (any version) in path would have to be treated specially for the widely-implemented purpose of determining if an article should be propagated to neighbors. 123.45.67.89 and 123.045.67.89 are different bits of text, but equivalent IP address literals. IPv6 is much more complex as there are literally dozens of ways to represent a given IPv6 literal. A neighbor might not be known by IP address but by name, so treatment if IP address literals would involve a DNS lookup in in-addr.arpa. > Though when it comes to implementing our new arrangements for catching > MISMATCHes, there will be a little extra work to do - probably involving > a cache of known path-identities for each peering site. > > That obviates any argument about backwards compatibility > >breaking reassignment of colon (ostensibly for IPv6 literals), and > >it means that I don;t have to remind Charles that his claim that > >handling of e.g. dead:beef would affect only one site and not sites > >named "dead" or "beef" or their neighbors and downstream sites has > >been twice debunked before he recently repeated it. > > I think it has always been well understood that the benefit of being able > to handle IPv6 addresses outweighed some possible inconvenience to sites > that used some rather unusual <path-identity>s. No. Frank is on recent record as being opposed to IP addresses in path. You seem to have agreed "Absolutely" to treatment of path components "purely as public names, not as IP address literals". Russ is also on record as being opposed to IP addresses. Now where is this supposed "benefit"? > If the sites "dead" and > "beef" find that some idiot has invented a site "dead:beef", What purpose is served by use of the derogatory term "idiot"? > and if they > find that they are receiving too many articles twice over in consequence, > then they will have to deal with it as best they can. Sigh. No Charles, as has been explained to you twice before, the issue is neither "only affects that site" nor "receiving too many articles twice over", it is that if some combination of characters (hexadecimal digits) appears next to a colon in Path, the sequence of characters (excluding the colon delimiter) is interpreted as a host name, and an upstream neighbor of a site with such a host name will not receive such articles *at all*, nor will sites downstream of the named host who are dependent of that host for a feed of the affected newsgroups and/or distributions. I.e. it breaks the flooding algorithm by changing the meaning of a long-standing delimiter. It breaks backwards compatibility. > It is already > well-known that there are idiot sites out there, and Usenet has always > managed to work its way around them. Does your continued use of offensive language serve any purpose? > >Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity > >ABNF production. > > So you would rather throw out a much needed facility than put up with a > rather improbable minor inconvenience? Please come and join us in the Real > World for a change. Please support your "much-needed" assertion. Your "minor inconvenience" claim is a false assertion, as has been explained to you in detail at least twice before, and now again. Your "join us in the real world for a change" snide remark is highly offensive and totally uncalled for. > >The second note claims that component names "are traditionally in > >lower case", but I've seen mixed case and upper-case names. I'd > >like to see that text elided. possibly replaced with a statement > >that a choice of name of "POSTED", "MISMATCH", or even "PoStEd" > >would be a really bad idea. That of course assumes that we want > >to continue pursuing introduction of those keywords. > > Again, there is a limit as to how far one should go to deal with idiotic > sysadmins. Is that supposed to be a substantive comment of some sort? If so I fail to see the substance. It sounds like yet another uncalled for insult. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEFNYq034071 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NEFNG5034068 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEFLjC033995 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045C061B64; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:15:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19707-02; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:15:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C3361AF3; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:15:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:15:18 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <3DB8D904BE1ED5493BF70027@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 22, 2005 17:23:48 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > > > "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> If the sites "dead" and >> "beef" find that some idiot has invented a site "dead:beef", > > I'm curious. Is this "idiot" an idiot because they are doing something > explicitely allowed in the USEFOR standard, or for some other unspecified > reason? > > I mean, if: > > path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) > *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / ":" / "_" ) > > and someone actually follows that rule to create a path-identify for his > site that causes problems for existing sites, why is HE the idiot? While name-calling is not a good idea even when the person one is insulting cannot be identified, anyone who generates something permitted by the ABNF even when it's explicitly forbidden by the accompanying text is certainly not exhibiting good judgment. On the other hand, if the standards writers intended to forbid it, and standard does not specifically say so, the standards writers are not showing good judgment..... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NECAdP028810 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NECA4u028805 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NEC9uo028748 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5NEC0F1012386; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5NEC0ao012385; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:11:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050623095400.11975B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > I go along with the earlier suggestion that this should be "-0000", which > > is RFC2822ese for "treat as GMT but actual zone uncertain". In reader > > agents, in particular, the distinction might be useful. > > 12:00:00 +0000 > 12:00:00 -0000 > 08:00:00 -0400 > are all equal according to RFC 2822. In the sense that they represent the same time, yes. But there is extra information there, *beyond* just the time, and in that respect they are three different values. To a reader agent, the first means "this guy is on GMT", the third means "this guy is on EDT", and the second means "the time is expressed in GMT but that might not be his real time zone". > -0000 means "I'm not telling you my > local timezone", not "I'm uncertain about the time". I was speaking of the meaning to the *reader*, which is the relevant one here, since we're talking about how to handle unknown zone indications. To a reader, -0000 means simply "sender's time zone is uncertain". Even a sender doesn't *necessarily* use -0000 to mean "I know but I'm not telling". It's conceivable for a system with users from multiple zones to put that in because it isn't sure of the *user's* correct zone. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NE0Sfc007804 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:00:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NE0Srk007802 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:00:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.verisignlabs.com (cliffie.verisignlabs.com [65.201.175.9]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NE0RlR007746 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sah@428cobrajet.net) Received: from dul1shollenbl1 ([::ffff:216.168.239.87]) (AUTH: LOGIN shollenb, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,RC4-MD5) by mail.verisignlabs.com with esmtp; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:00:26 -0400 id 0059C162.42BAC07A.00004598 From: "Scott Hollenbeck" <sah@428cobrajet.net> To: "'Harald Tveit Alvestrand'" <harald@alvestrand.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: RE: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:00:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Thread-Index: AcV39f1I5QUn7+auSIOe9uYBQUSoEAAA+1zQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <courier.42BAC07A.00004598@mail.verisignlabs.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:18 AM > To: ietf-usefor@imc.org > Subject: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" [snip] > Are there others than the 7 individuals above who have a > strong opinion one > way or the other, or are there people among the 7 individuals > who feel that > I've mischaracterized their position? Area advisor opinion: after re-reading the working group charter I can understand why this has been contentious. The charter says: "The Goal of this working group is to publish a standards-track successor to RFC 1036 that with particular attention to backward compatibility, formalizes best current practice and best proposed practice." Ignoring the "that with" error, that could be read to imply that there's a requirement to use whatever terms have found their way into "best current practice". However, 2822 is a normative reference in usefor. I'm thus inclined to believe that usefor should use the same terminology used in 2822 where appropriate, or it should explicitly explain why different terminology is being used and precisely where the deviations exist. Not a position, just advice. -Scott- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDxRvO005998 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDxRdk005997 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDxPtG005946 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51DF61B65; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:59:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18369-05; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:59:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514B261B64; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:59:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:59:19 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: #1047: Path field delimiters and components Message-ID: <AEA4944F9E29B5749F26C5B3@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Assigned ticket #1047 to this issue. --On tirsdag, juni 21, 2005 21:33:08 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News >> monster in the case of IPv6 colons. > > It breaks C news and INN as well. Moreover, as recently reaffirmed > by Russ, INN has no special treatment of numeric-plus-dots names in > the Path field due to severe performance issues associated with > such special treatment. Note that the Path field as currently > defined has no provision for comments; the justification given for > that in earlier drafts was that the processing to treat comments > as whitespace (i.e. essentially to ignore them) would be an onerous > performance problem. Russ has noted that DNS lookups can take quite > a long time. The implications for path field components is clear: > they have to be treated purely as public names, not as IP address > literals. That obviates any argument about backwards compatibility > breaking reassignment of colon (ostensibly for IPv6 literals), and > it means that I don;t have to remind Charles that his claim that > handling of e.g. dead:beef would affect only one site and not sites > named "dead" or "beef" or their neighbors and downstream sites has > been twice debunked before he recently repeated it. > > Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity > ABNF production. > > As the text currently doe not mention IP address literals and does > use "name" (albeit only in a note), no other change is necessary > (semantic clarification that components are public names would > however be welcome). > > The second note claims that component names "are traditionally in > lower case", but I've seen mixed case and upper-case names. I'd > like to see that text elided. possibly replaced with a statement > that a choice of name of "POSTED", "MISMATCH", or even "PoStEd" > would be a really bad idea. That of course assumes that we want > to continue pursuing introduction of those keywords. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDubMt001011 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDubxd001009 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:56:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDuaXP000918 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EA761B65; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:56:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18622-01; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530AB61B64; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:56:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1046: USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations Message-ID: <53B509D8A0748DFC182129D6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> <E8054BEAE3C634AB06783DCB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <57C89AE6B2563AC40BBDB43E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ticket #1046 assigned. --On tirsdag, juni 21, 2005 19:45:55 +0200 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> If you want to raise a new issue, and want to make sure it >> gets a ticket, please use a subject line saying something >> like >> NEW: USEPRO 3.14.159 Section numbering is irrational > > Last proposed "security considerations" addition was in > <http://mid.gmane.org/42AB12BE.553B@xyzzy.claranet.de> > > MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. Note that > applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters like multi-line > paramters on a boundary parameter as defined in [RFC2046] might be > abused to bypass naive methods of handling parameters. Two examples: > > Content-Type: > multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") > Content-Type: multipart/digest; > boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDoTYf089287 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDoT9E089285 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:50:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDoSh6089220 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F48629926; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NDoPtc026332(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:25 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NDoNWC026331(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:23 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:50:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> <B6A6C8472CA3E5824A8FCBFE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <B6A6C8472CA3E5824A8FCBFE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506230950.16947.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 22 2005 16:08, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Bruce, > > --On 21. juni 2005 22:20 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > > Such attempts violate several principles which we've agreed on: > > 1. stay as close to 2822+MIME as possible. > > In this case, there's no need for a deviation; 2822 requires > > accepting "UT" and the standard 3-letter abbreviations. > > Section 2.1 of usefor-04 is very clear: > > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax > specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate > productions of such syntax. > > This is a deviation from RFC 2822, which says "MUST accept the obsolete > syntax". Since this apparently had a previous consensus of the WG, I don't > see that you can say that we have agreement on the principle. I'm not convinced that there was any consensus on such a sweeping statement. With the exception of unquoted dot in obs-phrase, the 2822 obs-syntax covers deprecated constructs which were legal in 822. In particular, "Netnews" user "agents" are going to need to be able to handle the legal zone abbreviations which appear in archived articles and which are still in current use. It might be reasonable to make specific allowances for *transport* agents... > > 2. where we have good cause to deviate, the article format is more > > restrictive. > > Allowing generation of something which is prohibited for generation > > by 2822 is clearly not more restrictive > > Makes sense to me; others may have other opinions. > Are you suggesting (specific text change) that the doc says that systems > MUST NOT generate GMT? I'm suggesting that for the purpose of the syntax & semantics document (USEFOR) we simply use RFC 2822 date-time by reference. Protocol-related (e.g. transport) restrictions on use of format provisions in transport- related fields can be specified in USEPRO, subject of course to discussion and WG consensus. > > 3. backwards compatibility (see our charter). Differences cause problems > > not only for UAs and gateways, but for messaging protocols (e.g. IMAP). > > Are you referring to this charter text? > > >The Goal of this working group is to publish a standards-track > >successor to RFC 1036 that with particular attention to backward > >compatibility, formalizes best current practice and best proposed practice. Yes. N.B. "with particular attention to backward compatibility". > > 4. RFC 2822, MIME, IMAP, etc. are outside of our bailiwick; we have no > > authority to change them. > > orig-date and zone are part of 2822. > > Are you proposing that we delete the ABNF description? For orig-date and zone (both defined in RFC 2822), yes. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDYcRX062726 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDYcff062725 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDYcab062709 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BA92990F; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NDYWPh026189(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:34:33 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NDYQ47026188(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:34:28 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:34:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506230934.19093.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5NDYcab062720 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 22 2005 15:18, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Tue June 14 2005 09:05, Frank Ellermann wrote: > >> > >> There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's > >> in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. > >> > >> TTBOMK Charles says, whatever it is, in a msg-id it's case > >> sensitive. > > >RFC 2822 is crystal clear on the semantics and the nature of the > >syntax differences from 822 and 2822 angle-addr: > > > Since the msg-id has > > a similar syntax to angle-addr (identical except that comments and > > folding white space are not allowed), a good method is to put the > > domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the > > message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and > > put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with > > some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available > > on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand > > side. > > In RFC 2822 an <id-right> is a string of characters satisfying some ABNF. The grammar production named id-right is an ABNF rule name, yes. > It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a <quoted-pair> > is "invisible"). No, the semantics are "the domain name (or a domain literal IP address)". > If you generate such an <id-right> by "putting" a <domain> > in there, it is still an <id-right> (even if it happens to look like a > <domain>) and it still has no further semantics, and hence no requirement > to be considered case insensitively at any stage. References to specific RFC 2822 text supporting your claims, please. > In our draft, the same is true (except that we have fixed the > <quoted-pair> problem). But, for the removal of all doubt, we have also > excluded your bizarre interpretation by stating the intent that an > octet-by-octet comparison will always suffice. Kindly refrain from ad-hominem attacks. There is no "bizarre interpretation", a msg-id has had a domain name or domain literal on the RHS since RFC 822 (prior to which the RHS was a host name, as that was before DNS). RFC 2822 has not changed the semantics, contrary to your unsupported assertion (RFC 2822 Appendix B contains a list of changes, and semantics of msg-id is not among them). 2822 dis change a very specific part of the syntax, which as noted is "identical except" for those specific syntax changes. > >In RFC 822, the syntax was in fact identical; because of input specifically > >related to Usenet the syntax was changed to exclude CFWS. The semantics > >hasn't changed, > > Yes, it has changed (whether intended so or not). Repeating an unsupported assertion does not add to the discussion. If you cannot support your assertion, please retract it so we can move on. > >Given the stated methodology and the rationale for it (especially > >"otherwise result in subtle differences and interoperability challenges"), > >as well as the basis of our document supposed to be 2822, and the > >suggestion made years ago by Mark Crispin, viz: > > > NNTP Transport Requirements > > > The BLURDYBLOOP command in NNTP uses the message-id as an argument. > > The syntax for this command does not provide any way for spaces to > > appear in the message-id. Therefore, message-ids in the Message-ID, > > In-Reply-To, and References headers of a message MUST NOT contain > > the space character. > > >I can see no reason for an incompatible redefinition in our document. > > The differences in the <msg-id> in our document are essential for > technical reasons that have been explained so many times that I will not > repeat them here. IOW, more unsupported assertions, not even repeated in this case. > Those concessions turned out to be insufficient for the essential > requirement of Netnews that an octet-by-octet comparison of <msg-id>s > would always suffice. Kindly support your assertions. > >My recommendation is to leave msg-id as defined in our primary normative > >reference RFC 2822 and to add such notes along the lines suggested by > >Mark as may be required, > > No, Mark made his suggestion (in the NNTP list, I believe) Mark's suggestion was made here, and is archived in this WG's mailing list archive at http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html > in the belief > that he was describing a temporary problem that would be fixed in future > implementations. That is a false assertion; Mark specifically referred to a transport protocol constraint, as his text clearly shows. > He was rapidly disabused of that notion. References, please. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDXw6L061888 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDXws8061885 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDXvDB061859 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5NDXuL6003601 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:57 -0700 Received: (qmail 26022 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Jun 2005 13:33:56 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" In-Reply-To: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:52 +0200") References: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:33:54 -0700 Message-ID: <87r7etxkn1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > - Use the RFC 2822 terms "header field", "field name" and "field body" > for the terms currently defined in USEFOR 2.1. > The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents > that derive their terminology from that (and coincidentally also allows > us to define "header content" differently than "field body", if we need > that - Charles wants such a term). > Seen in this "camp": Forrest, Bruce, Richard and John Stanley I think we should use the RFC 2822 terminology as well. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDI1FA042236 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NDI1Ku042235 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDI0eb042220 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C743C61B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14997-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDB561B7F for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:17:52 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1043 USEFOR 2.1 Use of the term "header" Message-ID: <B8F701671201444A370CFD13@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> [I've created a new ticket number for the "header" issue, because I'm not sure that's all there is to Bruce's complaint in #1031. I can't tell from what he wrote.] This is the kind of issue that is most irritating of all, because the group is split down the middle, there are reasonable arguments on both sides, the issue has to be decided.... and whatever we do, the decision won't change one bit on the wire, so there are no technical issues involved that could be used to argue strongly for one side or another. The two positions I've heard: - Use the terms "header", "header name" and "header content" the way they are currently defined in USEFOR The argument in favour is that this conforms most closely with previous News documents and colloquial usage. There are also some mail standards that use "header" this way. Seen in this "camp": Henry, Frank and Charles - Use the RFC 2822 terms "header field", "field name" and "field body" for the terms currently defined in USEFOR 2.1. The argument in favour is that this conforms with RFC 2822 and documents that derive their terminology from that (and coincidentally also allows us to define "header content" differently than "field body", if we need that - Charles wants such a term). Seen in this "camp": Forrest, Bruce, Richard and John Stanley I'm tempted to invoke the decision making procedure of RFC 3929 section 4.4 and flip a coin... but that might be considered a too flippant way of making the call. Are there others than the 7 individuals above who have a strong opinion one way or the other, or are there people among the 7 individuals who feel that I've mischaracterized their position? As I said - this won't change the protocol on the wire one bit. But we need to stop talking and decide. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ND9T0t031425 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ND9T52031424 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ND9ShE031409 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEAF29903; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ND9PXA025977(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:26 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5ND9NC9025976(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:24 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> <III3B8.B1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <III3B8.B1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506230909.19173.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 22 2005 15:25, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > >The result of which was to affirm no such limits, and we moved on from > >there. Now you're trying to introduce a per-field limit. Why -- what > >has changed recently to justify reintroducing something that was long > >ago rejected? > > It is indeed rather unusual to impose any limit (other than an advisory > one) on the overall length of a header. > > I have put the requirement for trimming in there (it was optional before, > though recommended in USEAGE) because Frank asked for something stronger > (and nobody has disputed that). I recall no ticket item for the issue, no discussion, and no declaration of consensus. References? > I put that total length limit in there because (as we have both witnessed) > some existing agents do some most unpleasant things when References > headers get too long. There is no such thing as "too long" for a field. What was observed was the result of inappropriate folding at 990 octets to stay within the per-line limit (which does exist). Broken software is broken software, and we should not impose limits which will be ineffective (a single-line References field of 995 octets would still be broken inappropriately at 990 octets by the software in question), which are counter to agreed upon consensus (at least without reopening discussion first), and which run counter to established practice per RFCs 822, 850, 1036, and 2822. > Nobody has queried what I wrote so far, but if you > wish it to be discussed, then please ask Alexey to raise a USEPRO ticket > for it, and we will do so. The procedure should be discuss first, and change the document (which is supposed to reflect WG consensus) only after consensus is declared by the Chair. Since you are the one who apparently wishes to make a change, you should request a discussion ticket. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ND06e1020057 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ND06ZY020056 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ND05TK020040 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2850F29935; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:58:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NCwr4j025899(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:58:55 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5NCwpGu025898(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:58:52 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:58:44 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506230858.46031.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 22 2005 14:50, Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > >1. stay as close to 2822+MIME as possible. > > In this case, there's no need for a deviation; 2822 requires > > accepting "UT" and the standard 3-letter abbreviations. > > We have agreed that all the 3-letter abbreviations are a Bad Thing and > should disappear from active use ASAP. I do not recall any such agreement on such a wide-sweeping statement. Can you supply a reference to support your assertion? > To this end, we forbid their > generation within News, we do NOT REQUIRE acceptance except for GMT, but > you MAY accept them if you wish (as with all obs-syntax). A UA which does not handle the standard "UT" and 3-letter abbreviations is going to be unable to handle Date fields in archived articles; such abbreviations were legal under RFCs 850 and 1036, and as recently noted continue to be in use. Now if you want to re-introduce separate syntax for Injection-Date (note that we had that discussion years ago and decided to use date-time *because* parsers for it already exist in news software), (to use your own words) "then please ask Alexey to raise a USEPRO ticket for it". > >3. backwards compatibility (see our charter). Differences cause problems > > not only for UAs and gateways, but for messaging protocols (e.g. IMAP). > > I see nothing in the proposal that will cause problems for other such > agents. The Date field is used in all applications using the Internet Message Format (mail, news, voice messaging, EDI, fax) and date-time is used in a number of fields other than Date. Changing the definitions of "zone" and "orig-date" causes problems for combined news/mail UAs as well as protocols that handle messages largely independently of specific applications. Again, if you want to make a special case for Injection-Date which is proposed for news use only, that's a separate matter. > >4. RFC 2822, MIME, IMAP, etc. are outside of our bailiwick; we have no > > authority to change them. > > orig-date and zone are part of 2822. > > >> Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > >> timezones as equivalent to "+0000". > > >Aside from the issue of - rather than +, the more important issue is > >that acceptance of broken date-time (illegal or missing zones) violates > >all of the principles listed above. > > True if you intend to propagate it further, but not if you are just trying > to decide whether to reject an article as "stale". The author's or authors' origination date has nothing to do with "staleness", which in any event is a protocol issue, not a syntax issue. > So if some particular injecting agent decides that "EST" is "unknown", Clarification is needed (unless we simply use RFC 2822 by reference). "EST" has always been a standard "known" zone abbreviation with a specific equivalent offset (-0500). > then it either swallows its pride and passes it on, or else it physically > replaces it by -0000 (I could write that into USEPRO if people wish). This person certainly does not wish so. I believe that we have a principle that message content should not be modified (except of course for Path and similar trace fields). Feel free to suggest a new ticket, but kindly do not make arbitrary changes w/o WG discussion and Chair-declared consensus. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NBncTg037637 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5NBXf4A033039 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NBHUns030957 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6DD61B75; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:17:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06259-03; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1217261B72; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:17:03 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net>, Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <4E17A15804AAD4E3B49B5CC9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On tirsdag, juni 21, 2005 13:53:08 -0400 Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> wrote: >> Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such >> timezones as equivalent to "+0000". > > I go along with the earlier suggestion that this should be "-0000", which > is RFC2822ese for "treat as GMT but actual timezone uncertain". In reader > agents, in particular, the distinction might be useful. In the interest of civil list behaviour, I'll just say that my opinion on the usefulness of -0000 hasn't changed since this was proposed by Dan Bernstein in DRUMS. Note that the following times: 12:00:00 +0000 12:00:00 -0000 08:00:00 -0400 are all equal according to RFC 2822. -0000 means "I'm not telling you my local timezone", not "I'm uncertain about the time". The text proposed says that the following timezone: 12:00:00 NONSENSE can also be considered equal to the above, if one chooses to accept it at all. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N51Kqo051986 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5N51KiC051985 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N51Jqp051964 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3B261B70; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19417-09; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A6561B74; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:13:25 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Non-standard language justification (was Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <9A783F02166F9230E27877A4@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506211633470.24392@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506211633470.24392@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 21. juni 2005 17:26 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > And since the point was skipped in the last response, I'll make it again. > Is there a justification for the IETF-USEFOR working group web page not to > have the latest complete draft? I know, I've asked for up to date > DISCUSSION versions to be kept on the web page so we can all discuss the > same thing and Charles nixed that because it was too hard and would take > updating the web every five minutes, but now we don't even keep an up to > date draft as sent to the IETF from three weeks ago? The chairs will attempt to get this fixed. Version numbers are cheap (outside of the IETF pre-meeting blackouts), so we might as well just ship official versions (my opinion). I hope we have enough issues settled to make it worthwhile to ask our editor to emit usefor-05 before the Paris blackout. Harlad Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N51JJS051967 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5N51JK7051966 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N51Hxh051929 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531F561B75 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19417-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A95061B64 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:01:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:08:55 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <B6A6C8472CA3E5824A8FCBFE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce, --On 21. juni 2005 22:20 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > Such attempts violate several principles which we've agreed on: > 1. stay as close to 2822+MIME as possible. > In this case, there's no need for a deviation; 2822 requires > accepting "UT" and the standard 3-letter abbreviations. Section 2.1 of usefor-04 is very clear: News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate productions of such syntax. This is a deviation from RFC 2822, which says "MUST accept the obsolete syntax". Since this apparently had a previous consensus of the WG, I don't see that you can say that we have agreement on the principle. > 2. where we have good cause to deviate, the article format is more > restrictive. > Allowing generation of something which is prohibited for generation > by 2822 is clearly not more restrictive Makes sense to me; others may have other opinions. Are you suggesting (specific text change) that the doc says that systems MUST NOT generate GMT? > 3. backwards compatibility (see our charter). Differences cause problems > not only for UAs and gateways, but for messaging protocols (e.g. IMAP). Are you referring to this charter text? >The Goal of this working group is to publish a standards-track >successor to RFC 1036 that with particular attention to backward >compatibility, formalizes best current practice and best proposed practice. > 4. RFC 2822, MIME, IMAP, etc. are outside of our bailiwick; we have no > authority to change them. > orig-date and zone are part of 2822. Are you proposing that we delete the ABNF description? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N0aRSn081394 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5N0aQTw081393 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N0aOQa081342 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlFbS-0003hX-Nj for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:29:58 +0200 Received: from du-001-022.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.22]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:29:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-022.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:29:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:33:42 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 46 Message-ID: <42BA0366.7707@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <57C89AE6B2563AC40BBDB43E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212235.28474.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-022.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > While I see no problem with addressing the issue per se, nor > with the specific examples, it seems that the gist of the > proposed wording is "avoid MIME" It's more like "be careful with insane boundary constructs". Near the top of the USEFOR memo (2.3) there's already a "MUST": | User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME-conformance in | [RFC2049] and MUST also support [RFC2231]. In the "security considerations" (5.) we only need to address the most critical consequences of this statement. > If you feel strongly that it should be posed as a security > consideration Yes, obviously, because 2046 doesn't discuss comments in the boundary, let alone any 2231 constructs. > I suggest "A naive rather than fully compliant implementation > may make such a naive implementation vulnerable to security > breaches. One "naive" too many for my taste, and I very much doubt that 2231 constructs in a boundary are what the authors intended - in fact they say "don't do this if it's unnecesary" as general rule. For this reason it's also better to avoid a statement about "fully compliant". Maybe a 2046bis or 2231bis clearly disallows such boundary-constructs, good riddance. > Specifications have been analyzed for security implications > as documented in the relevant RFCs Both 2046 and 2231 fail miserably for the boundary parameter, that's why we have to mention it explicitly at all. > deviations from those specifications may defeat security > measures built into the specifications, and the resulting > vulnerabilities might not be obvious to a non-expert Yes, that's the point. It's also not obvious for about every UA claiming to be MIME-compatible, or is it ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N0NuPb069702 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5N0Nuta069701 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N0Ntxv069654 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5N0NmGS022242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:23:48 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506221658320.10545@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >If the sites "dead" and >"beef" find that some idiot has invented a site "dead:beef", I'm curious. Is this "idiot" an idiot because they are doing something explicitely allowed in the USEFOR standard, or for some other unspecified reason? I mean, if: path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / ":" / "_" ) and someone actually follows that rule to create a path-identify for his site that causes problems for existing sites, why is HE the idiot? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N0JEVt065008 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5N05uH4050928 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:05:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5N05nNL050705 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlF7e-0006gO-5G for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:59:10 +0200 Received: from du-001-022.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.22]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:59:10 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-022.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:59:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:02:19 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42B9FC0B.7FC6@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-022.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > <newsgroup-name>s of the following forms SHOULD NOT appear > in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers in articles intended > for propagation throughout the public Usenet. [...] > any <newsgroup-name> having only one <component> As stated I disagree. Except from some random junk like "fi" or "free" there are apparently valid NGs "alt" and "general" on news.clara.net (checked today, only for non-empty groups). Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MMo001074886 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:50:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MMo0nP074885 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MMnw37074853 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DlDvz-0007Re-AG for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:43:05 +0200 Received: from du-001-022.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.22]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:43:03 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-022.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:43:03 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:43:43 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 65 Message-ID: <42B9E99F.7605@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-022.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > A dynamic IP address might be usable if the LHS has a > timestamp as suggested in RFC 2822. Please note the *if* here, timestamps are not the only way to create some form of <id-local> - especially not for devices so desperate that they use a domain literal as <id-domain> instead of a proper FQDN. While it's a bad idea some algorithms might try hashes and / or counters. Even if they use timestamps the way how they encode them in a <id-local> varies. Different local times on different machines are also a source for insufficient <id-local> concepts. All these unclear conditions covered by a very simple STD 11 rule: | THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. > A static, Internet-routable IP address literal is OK > for a msg-id RHS. Yes. > A note pointing out the limitations of dynamic IP > addresses and the unsuitability of unroutable, example, > loopback, DHCP negotiation, and multicast IP addresses > should suffice. E.g. the STD 11 rule translated to 2119 SHOULD NOT style. > nor a protocol issue per se; it could go in USEAGE. USEAGE is not on the same level as STD 11, and IMHO it's a protocol issue in many cases. As far as USEFOR and msg-id are concerned there's already a note in chapter 5 (security considerations). When it comes to domain literals my mental picture is an independent Web cam without FQDN and clock connected to the public Internet. Maybe it tries to post pictures. Yes, ridiculous, but the HTTP/1.1 spec. manages to allow for such "Web server without clock" cases - IIRC it says SHOULD instead of MUST at a critical place about "Date:". [path] > the text currently does not mention IP address literals Somewhere you'd find an "approved" IPv6 path-example for the next USEPRO. >> replace the bogus 2822 notation <id-right> by <id-domain> > Here we disagree, as I have noted separately. You probably want "my" semantics with the old 2822-syntax. AFAIK this "my" is also "your" or the "true" semantics of a msg-id. I'd be very surprised if you say that the RHS can be "anything" as long as it's syntactically correct. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MMQRbW049181 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MMQRpW049167 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MMQQ6w049131 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAF458AC2 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5MMQPs12590; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506222226.j5MMQPs12590@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > In <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >>On Tue June 21 2005 13:10, Ken Murchison wrote: >>> Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such >>> timezones as equivalent to "+0000". > >>Aside from the issue of - rather than +, the more important issue is >>that acceptance of broken date-time (illegal or missing zones) violates >>all of the principles listed above. > > True if you intend to propagate it further, but not if you are just trying > to decide whether to reject an article as "stale". > > If some particular relaying agent decides that "EST" is "unknown", (and > does not reject it as stale), then it either swallows its pride and passes > it on, or else it drops it on the floor. > > So here is a suggested replacement: > > Software MAY interpret an unknown timezone as "-0000" for the purpose of > comparing one <date-time> with another. How else is it allowed to treat it? If it's not going to just drop it on the floor for having an unknown zone, it's supposed to do a comparison. Are we specifying that software is allowed to treat EST as +4600 if it wants? Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcHqV096416 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLcH8v096414 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcG81096352 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d878.15793.cf3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:32 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSgH15256 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:42 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21430 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <III8ws.BoL@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:26:52 GMT Lines: 102 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 17 2005 14:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> > Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad >> > Thing to use in an <id-right>. >Frank has a valid point; 127.0.0.1, 192.168.0.1, 10.0.0.1, >172.16.0.1, 192.0.0.1, 224.0.0.1, 169.254.0.1, and many similar >IP address literals lack the uniqueness characteristic necessary >for some uses (including msg-id domain lierals). Indeed, there are lots of stupid domain literals that should not be used as an <id-right>, but RFC 2822 already has that problem (and it is not our job to fix RFC 2822). I would have thought the point obvious enough that we do not need to mention it explicitly. >A dynamic IP address might be usable if the LHS has a timestamp >as suggested in RFC 2822. Exactly. In fact, and IP address over which you have sole control at that exact moment in time is OK (or you have some agreement with the person who _does_ have such sole control). >.... This isn't a syntax or >semantics issue, nor a protocol issue per se; it could go in USEAGE. Possibly. >------ new topic ------- > >> It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News >> monster in the case of IPv6 colons. >It breaks C news and INN as well. Moreover, as recently reaffirmed >by Russ, INN has no special treatment of numeric-plus-dots names in >the Path field due to severe performance issues associated with >such special treatment. I do not recall that there was any performance issue. They are just a string of characters like any other <path-identity>. >.... Russ has noted that DNS lookups can take quite >a long time. The implications for path field components is clear: >they have to be treated purely as public names, not as IP address >literals. Absolutely. But I don't expect DNS lookups for <path-identity>s on a routine basis (indeed, our text used to say that, but it was one of Brad Templeton's excesses that I got rid ot). Though when it comes to implementing our new arrangements for catching MISMATCHes, there will be a little extra work to do - probably involving a cache of known path-identities for each peering site. > That obviates any argument about backwards compatibility >breaking reassignment of colon (ostensibly for IPv6 literals), and >it means that I don;t have to remind Charles that his claim that >handling of e.g. dead:beef would affect only one site and not sites >named "dead" or "beef" or their neighbors and downstream sites has >been twice debunked before he recently repeated it. I think it has always been well understood that the benefit of being able to handle IPv6 addresses outweighed some possible inconvenience to sites that used some rather unusual <path-identity>s. If the sites "dead" and "beef" find that some idiot has invented a site "dead:beef", and if they find that they are receiving too many articles twice over in consequence, then they will have to deal with it as best they can. It is already well-known that there are idiot sites out there, and Usenet has always managed to work its way around them. >Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity >ABNF production. So you would rather throw out a much needed facility than put up with a rather improbable minor inconvenience? Please come and join us in the Real World for a change. >The second note claims that component names "are traditionally in >lower case", but I've seen mixed case and upper-case names. I'd >like to see that text elided. possibly replaced with a statement >that a choice of name of "POSTED", "MISMATCH", or even "PoStEd" >would be a really bad idea. That of course assumes that we want >to continue pursuing introduction of those keywords. Again, there is a limit as to how far one should go to deal with idiotic sysadmins. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcHdJ096415 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLcHk4096413 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcFFT096330 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d877.15793.cf2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:31 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSZj15237 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21426 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <III2yo.Ayn@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:18:24 GMT Lines: 87 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Tue June 14 2005 09:05, Frank Ellermann wrote: >> >> There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's >> in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. >> >> TTBOMK Charles says, whatever it is, in a msg-id it's case >> sensitive. >RFC 2822 is crystal clear on the semantics and the nature of the >syntax differences from 822 and 2822 angle-addr: > Since the msg-id has > a similar syntax to angle-addr (identical except that comments and > folding white space are not allowed), a good method is to put the > domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the > message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and > put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with > some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available > on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand > side. In RFC 2822 an <id-right> is a string of characters satisfying some ABNF. It has no semantics attached to it (except that a `\` in a <quoted-pair> is "invisible"). If you generate such an <id-right> by "putting" a <domain> in there, it is still an <id-right> (even if it happens to look like a <domain>) and it still has no further semantics, and hence no requirement to be considered case insensitively at any stage. In our draft, the same is true (except that we have fixed the <quoted-pair> problem). But, for the removal of all doubt, we have also excluded your bizarre interpretation by stating the intent that an octet-by-octet comparison will always suffice. >In RFC 822, the syntax was in fact identical; because of input specifically >related to Usenet the syntax was changed to exclude CFWS. The semantics >hasn't changed, Yes, it has changed (whether intended so or not). >Given the stated methodology and the rationale for it (especially >"otherwise result in subtle differences and interoperability challenges"), >as well as the basis of our document supposed to be 2822, and the >suggestion made years ago by Mark Crispin, viz: > NNTP Transport Requirements > The BLURDYBLOOP command in NNTP uses the message-id as an argument. > The syntax for this command does not provide any way for spaces to > appear in the message-id. Therefore, message-ids in the Message-ID, > In-Reply-To, and References headers of a message MUST NOT contain > the space character. >I can see no reason for an incompatible redefinition in our document. The differences in the <msg-id> in our document are essential for technical reasons that have been explained so many times that I will not repeat them here. >The sole purpose of the incompatible redefinition of msg-id, already >defined in RFC 2822 making concessions to specific Usenet issues, >seems to be to: Those concessions turned out to be insufficient for the essential requirement of Netnews that an octet-by-octet comparison of <msg-id>s would always suffice. >My recommendation is to leave msg-id as defined in our primary normative >reference RFC 2822 and to add such notes along the lines suggested by >Mark as may be required, No, Mark made his suggestion (in the NNTP list, I believe) in the belief that he was describing a temporary problem that would be fixed in future implementations. He was rapidly disabused of that notion. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcG5v096395 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLcGpd096392 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcEeR096317 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d873.15793.cee for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:27 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSfX15252 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:41 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21429 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: OT: 78 Message-ID: <III7qE.BJA@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B71A1E.3CDC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIFLIo.6yA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B839B7.B4A@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:26 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B839B7.B4A@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> What is this tool that hits you, and exactly what is the >> nature of the breakage that you see? >It's a "norton commander clone" with among many other features >a built-in text viewer. That beast folds lines if they reach >column 79. I have many "magic" 78 and 79 in my REXX scripts. And it does that even if the window is wide enough to accomodate 80 characters? Weird! >> the reasons I have seen in attempting to justify a 78 or >> 79 limit have nothing to do with the number of characters >> needed to represent an EOL >Is there any other (and preferably less ridiculous) reason... Yes, lots of viewers do what your norton commander clone does, but not until they reach column 80. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcG6L096400 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLcGtI096399 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLcENd096320 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d876.15793.cf1 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:30 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSXT15229 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:33 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21424 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <III1o4.Ar7@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:50:28 GMT Lines: 86 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Tue June 21 2005 13:10, Ken Murchison wrote: >> The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and >> 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in >> Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- >> zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. >> Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include >> the updated <zone> construct below. >The "MUST accept" is no change from 2822. >> orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF >> >> zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" >> >> Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which >> include "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which >> include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. >I really wish people would stop trying to impose such things on ABNF >grammar which is defined in documents outside of the scope of this WG. >Such attempts violate several principles which we've agreed on: >1. stay as close to 2822+MIME as possible. > In this case, there's no need for a deviation; 2822 requires > accepting "UT" and the standard 3-letter abbreviations. We have agreed that all the 3-letter abbreviations are a Bad Thing and should disappear from active use ASAP. To this end, we forbid their generation within News, we do NOT REQUIRE acceptance except for GMT, but you MAY accept them if you wish (as with all obs-syntax). >2. where we have good cause to deviate, the article format is more > restrictive. > Allowing generation of something which is prohibited for generation > by 2822 is clearly not more restrictive I agree. s/SHOULD NOT generate/MUST NOT generate/ in Ken's text (and simplify wording further). >3. backwards compatibility (see our charter). Differences cause problems > not only for UAs and gateways, but for messaging protocols (e.g. IMAP). I see nothing in the proposal that will cause problems for other such agents. >4. RFC 2822, MIME, IMAP, etc. are outside of our bailiwick; we have no > authority to change them. > orig-date and zone are part of 2822. >> Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such >> timezones as equivalent to "+0000". >Aside from the issue of - rather than +, the more important issue is >that acceptance of broken date-time (illegal or missing zones) violates >all of the principles listed above. True if you intend to propagate it further, but not if you are just trying to decide whether to reject an article as "stale". So if some particular injecting agent decides that "EST" is "unknown", then it either swallows its pride and passes it on, or else it physically replaces it by -0000 (I could write that into USEPRO if people wish). If some particular relaying agent decides that "EST" is "unknown", (and does not reject it as stale), then it either swallows its pride and passes it on, or else it drops it on the floor. Likewise a serving agent either stores it or doesn't. So here is a suggested replacement: Software MAY interpret an unknown timezone as "-0000" for the purpose of comparing one <date-time> with another. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUdIm088202 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLUdDm088200 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUcS7088152 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d87d.15793.cf4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:37 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSdO15247 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:39 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21428 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <III7Ku.BH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:58:06 GMT Lines: 113 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 20. juni 2005 10:23 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> In <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> >> writes: >> >>> You keep using this word "private." I do not think this word means what >>> you think it means. >> >> I think it was Harald's term. If there is doubt about its meaning, then a >> definition would be needed. There is a clear enough definition of >> "cooperating subnet" in son-of-1036 and in our earlier drafts. >RFC 2434, guidelines for writing IANA sections: > Private Use - For private or local use only, with the type and > purpose defined by the local site. No attempt is made to > prevent multiple sites from using the same value in different > (and incompatible) ways. There is no need for IANA to review > such assignments and assignments are not generally useful for > interoperability. Hmmm! I think that sort of definition is too restrictive for the kind of useage we envisage, where mutual agreement between several sites may be involved. Indeed, I think "mutual agreement" to do something different out of the ordinary is the term that we want. Anyway, here is a proposed text, based on what Harald originally wrote, and some of the comments that have been made since: Let the ABNF be "rather liberal". In fact use the existing ABNF. Let the text explain the various restrictions. And restrict them like this: A newsgroup <component> SHOULD NOT consist of digits only (because of bad interactions with a widely deployed storage technique), and SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters (because some existing agents treat them case insensitievly). Such <component>s MAY be used to refer to existing groups created prior to this standard. <component>s beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents, nor accepted by injecting agents. However, such names MUST be accepted by other agents. <newsgroup-name>s of the following forms MUST NOT be used: o any <newsgroup-name> containing the <component> "ctl" (because it formerly caused such articles to be interpreted as control messages); o any <newsgroup-name> containing the <component> "all" (because it is used as a wildcard in some implementations); o any <newsgroup-name> starting with the <component> "to" (because of its special meaning to route certain control messages on a point-to-point basis [USEPRO], for which specific purpose it MAY continue to be used); o the <newsgroup-name> "poster" (because of its special meaning in the Followup-To header). <newsgroup-name>s of the following forms SHOULD NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers in articles intended for propagation throughout the public Usenet. They MAY appear in Xref headers and they MAY appear in articles passed between agents where there is some mutual agreement to do so. o any <newsgroup-name> having only one <component>; o any <newsgroup-name> starting with the <component> "control" (used by many serving agents for pseudo-newgroups to hold control messages); o the <newsgroup-name> "junk" (used by many serving agents to store invalid articles); o any <newsgroup-name> starting with the <component> "example" (reserved for examples in this and other standards); o any <newsgroup-name> containing <component>s beginning with "+" or "-" (reserved for special-purpose newsgroups, e.g. read-only groups, not to be propagated except by mutual agreement). Now I can see several objections to this, so there is still much to discuss. 1. I have followed the argument, put forward by several people, that we should have a "one-stop-shop" for all rules restricting newsgroup-names; hence this all goes in USEFOR. 2. Russ will take issue with my inclusion of "To" alongside "ctl" and "all". 3. Russ will also take issue with the whole of that last paragraph. So discussion of exact wording is in order (e.g. is "SHOULD NOT" the right thing to say). 4. There is room for discussion of whether the various categories are in the right list, and whether they are described correctly. 5. And when all that is settled. there will need to be some wording in USEPRO as regards what MUST/SHOULD not appear in control messages and what MUST/SHOULD be enforced by injecting agents. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUWbm088039 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLUWsh088038 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUUQY088004 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d875.15793.cf0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:29 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSbE15242 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:38 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21427 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <III3B8.B1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <WZsmwEbvbJsCFAQj@highwayman.com> <II6E4n.JuH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:25:56 GMT Lines: 43 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Thu June 16 2005 07:48, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> If the resulting References header would, after unfolding, exceed 998 >> characters in length (including its header name but not the final >> CRLF), it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). Trimming >> involves removing any number of message identifiers from its content, >> except that the first message identifier and the last two MUST NOT be >> removed. >The idea of per-field length limits (which did not exist in 822, 850, >1036 and do not exist in 2822) was discussed near the beginning of this >WG. For example: >The result of which was to affirm no such limits, and we moved on from >there. Now you're trying to introduce a per-field limit. Why -- what >has changed recently to justify reintroducing something that was long >ago rejected? It is indeed rather unusual to impose any limit (other than an advisory one) on the overall length of a header. I have put the requirement for trimming in there (it was optional before, though recommended in USEAGE) because Frank asked for something stronger (and nobody has disputed that). I put that total length limit in there because (as we have both witnessed) some existing agents do some most unpleasant things when References headers get too long. Nobody has queried what I wrote so far, but if you wish it to be discussed, then please ask Alexey to raise a USEPRO ticket for it, and we will do so. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUWCC088035 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5MLUWsW088034 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MLUUlh087992 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-1.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.1]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b9d874.15793.cef for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:30:28 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5MLSYs15233 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21425 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <III1vB.AtI@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:54:47 GMT Lines: 48 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Why? If it's good enough for RFC 2822, it's good enough >> for us. >RfC 2822 missed the idea of Message-IDs, a globally unique >identifier forever. Where collisions and abusing foreign >name spaces may have all sorts of undesirable side effects. >It's already clear that we cannot use the old 2822 msg-id >syntax. For NetNews our starting point is RfC 1036 anyway, >that's based on 822, and 822 said: >| THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. >Everywhere to the right of an "@" or in path identities. >> Feel free to trawl the archives. ><http://mid.gmane.org/427192C3.301E@xyzzy.claranet.de> ><http://mid.gmane.org/41F70AD2.7F73@xyzzy.claranet.de> ><http://mid.gmane.org/41EE90D8.544@xyzzy.claranet.de> I see nothing in those messages to indicate that anybody but yourself had accepted the idea that domain-literals (assuming they actually looked like an Internet address) were to be discouraged. >> All current UAs should (and AIUI do) send mail correctly >> to addresses using domain literals. >Not here. my UA sends mails to its configured smart hosts, >and these smart hosts reject all mails to domain literals: >"administrative restriction". Then those smart hosts are broken. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2kVx5099201 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M2kVis099200 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2kT6N099191 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5M2kSYQ022158 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 7837 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Jun 2005 02:46:28 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Cc: harald@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language In-Reply-To: <200506212148.54959.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:48:53 -0400") References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506211746.31745.blilly@erols.com> <42B8A70F.6BC0@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506212148.54959.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:28 -0700 Message-ID: <87k6kn5csb.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Well, as someone who used the utter nonsense phrasing recently, I apologize to Charles and the other group participants for using language that really wasn't constructive and was purely a voicing of frustration on my part. Harald's right -- it doesn't help us arrive at a conclusion. I'll try to maintain a more even temper. The temptation is to raise the level of rhetoric when one feels like one isn't being listened to, in an effort to make more impact, but that really isn't the relevant problem at the moment. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2ZkGJ093180 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:35:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M2ZkUN093179 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:35:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2ZjuD093145 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:35:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5474629947; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M2ZfeQ005272(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M2ZdNo005271(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:40 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: NEW: USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:35:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <57C89AE6B2563AC40BBDB43E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506212235.28474.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 21 2005 13:45, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Last proposed "security considerations" addition was in > <http://mid.gmane.org/42AB12BE.553B@xyzzy.claranet.de> > > MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. Note that > applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters like multi-line > paramters on a boundary parameter as defined in [RFC2046] might be > abused to bypass naive methods of handling parameters. Two examples: > > Content-Type: > multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") > Content-Type: multipart/digest; > boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy While I see no problem with addressing the issue per se, nor with the specific examples, it seems that the gist of the proposed wording is "avoid MIME" (2231 is part of the MIME specification). I would much prefer something similar to "it requires complete understanding and implementation of the normative references to be compliant". Of course, the USEFOR draft -04 already says that (section 1.6). If you feel strongly that it should be posed as a security consideration, then I suggest "A naive rather than fully compliant implementation may make such a naive implementation vulnerable to security breaches. Specifications have been analyzed for security implications as documented in the relevant RFCs; deviations from those specifications may defeat security measures built into the specifications, and the resulting vulnerabilities might not be obvious to a non-expert". Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2Kijd084861 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M2KiU0084860 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M2Khoo084852 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F6429931; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M2Kevm005169(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:20:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M2KdiM005168(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:20:39 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:20:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> In-Reply-To: <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506212220.34713.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 21 2005 13:10, Ken Murchison wrote: > The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and > 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in > Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- > zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. > Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include > the updated <zone> construct below. The "MUST accept" is no change from 2822. > orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF > > zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" > > Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. I really wish people would stop trying to impose such things on ABNF grammar which is defined in documents outside of the scope of this WG. Such attempts violate several principles which we've agreed on: 1. stay as close to 2822+MIME as possible. In this case, there's no need for a deviation; 2822 requires accepting "UT" and the standard 3-letter abbreviations. 2. where we have good cause to deviate, the article format is more restrictive. Allowing generation of something which is prohibited for generation by 2822 is clearly not more restrictive 3. backwards compatibility (see our charter). Differences cause problems not only for UAs and gateways, but for messaging protocols (e.g. IMAP). 4. RFC 2822, MIME, IMAP, etc. are outside of our bailiwick; we have no authority to change them. orig-date and zone are part of 2822. > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "+0000". Aside from the issue of - rather than +, the more important issue is that acceptance of broken date-time (illegal or missing zones) violates all of the principles listed above. Standard zones (in archived messages or generated by 1036/822-compliant legacy software) really should be treated as the equivalent standard offsets (as per 822/2822). As the 1-letter zones were long ago botched and effectively convey no information (RFC 1123), it would be reasonable to treat those as equivalent to -0000, and indeed that is what 2822 recommends. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M1nAkr067561 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M1nAcF067559 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M1n6tM067394 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F83299E5; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M1n1aA004761(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:49:02 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M1mx4L004760(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:49:00 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:48:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org, harald@alvestrand.no References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506211746.31745.blilly@erols.com> <42B8A70F.6BC0@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42B8A70F.6BC0@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506212148.54959.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 21 2005 19:47, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Okay, I can confirm this. BTW, it was about a > somewhat dubious joke which could be understood > as an attack against you. I can state definitively that nothing I have said, on-list or off-list, would have precipitated that. I understand your little jokes, but I can see how a newcomer or somebody skimming the archives might not. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M1XR5r062839 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M1XR6Y062838 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M1XOUt062830 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C5129927; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M1XGf2004636(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:33:16 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M1XE88004635(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:33:15 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: NEW: Path field delimiters and components; also #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:33:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506212133.10439.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 17 2005 14:50, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Charles Lindsey wrote: > > > 2822 says more than that. A little further down: > [...] > >| some domain identifier > > Yes, that's not good enough, it SHOULD be FQDN allowing domain > literal only for special cases. > > >> RfC 2822 also doesn't discourage domain literals generally > >> like STD 11. We have to fix it by a clear SHOULD NOT as in > >> STD 11. > > > Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad > > Thing to use in an <id-right>. Frank has a valid point; 127.0.0.1, 192.168.0.1, 10.0.0.1, 172.16.0.1, 192.0.0.1, 224.0.0.1, 169.254.0.1, and many similar IP address literals lack the uniqueness characteristic necessary for some uses (including msg-id domain lierals). A dynamic IP address might be usable if the LHS has a timestamp as suggested in RFC 2822. A static, Internet-routable IP address literal is OK for a msg-id RHS. A note pointing out the limitations of dynamic IP addresses and the unsuitability of unroutable, example, loopback, DHCP negotiation, and multicast IP addresses should suffice. This isn't a syntax or semantics issue, nor a protocol issue per se; it could go in USEAGE. > That's not how I recall it, and a domain-literal is everywhere > a Bad Thing: ------ new topic ------- > It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News > monster in the case of IPv6 colons. It breaks C news and INN as well. Moreover, as recently reaffirmed by Russ, INN has no special treatment of numeric-plus-dots names in the Path field due to severe performance issues associated with such special treatment. Note that the Path field as currently defined has no provision for comments; the justification given for that in earlier drafts was that the processing to treat comments as whitespace (i.e. essentially to ignore them) would be an onerous performance problem. Russ has noted that DNS lookups can take quite a long time. The implications for path field components is clear: they have to be treated purely as public names, not as IP address literals. That obviates any argument about backwards compatibility breaking reassignment of colon (ostensibly for IPv6 literals), and it means that I don;t have to remind Charles that his claim that handling of e.g. dead:beef would affect only one site and not sites named "dead" or "beef" or their neighbors and downstream sites has been twice debunked before he recently repeated it. Specific change to USEFOR -04 text: remove colon from path-identity ABNF production. As the text currently doe not mention IP address literals and does use "name" (albeit only in a note), no other change is necessary (semantic clarification that components are public names would however be welcome). The second note claims that component names "are traditionally in lower case", but I've seen mixed case and upper-case names. I'd like to see that text elided. possibly replaced with a statement that a choice of name of "POSTED", "MISMATCH", or even "PoStEd" would be a really bad idea. That of course assumes that we want to continue pursuing introduction of those keywords. ---- returning to msg-id ----- > All these tons of text are so obvious and unnecessary if you'd > only replace the bogus 2822 notation <id-right> by <id-domain>. Here we disagree, as I have noted separately. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0aPwu028825 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M0aPEk028808 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:36:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0aOFA028764 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:36:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D9129901; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M0aIhw004263(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:36:19 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5M0aHMe004262(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:36:17 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:36:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <WZsmwEbvbJsCFAQj@highwayman.com> <II6E4n.JuH@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <II6E4n.JuH@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506212036.11268.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 16 2005 07:48, Charles Lindsey wrote: > No, I have just created a References header whose *semantic*content* > contains all the right msg-ids. Who knows whether it is folded or not? Now > I want to say that you had better check that it would be less than 998 if > you were to unfold it (because some poorly designed implementation might > try to unfold it and process it further in a 998 buffer). [...] > If the resulting References header would, after unfolding, exceed 998 > characters in length (including its header name but not the final > CRLF), it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). Trimming > involves removing any number of message identifiers from its content, > except that the first message identifier and the last two MUST NOT be > removed. The idea of per-field length limits (which did not exist in 822, 850, 1036 and do not exist in 2822) was discussed near the beginning of this WG. For example: ------------------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 11:50:48 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@innosoft.com> Subject: Header/Message Limits To: usenet-format@clari.net Message-id: <Pine.SOL.3.95.980202113618.15587J-100000@elwood.innosoft.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Originator-Info: login-id=chris; server=THOR.INNOSOFT.COM Resent-Message-ID: <"PFEAz3.0.hd5.yCYrq"@ambient> Resent-From: usenet-format@clari.net X-Mailing-List: <usenet-format@clari.net> archive/latest/2643 X-Loop: usenet-format@clari.net Precedence: list Resent-Sender: usenet-format-request@clari.net X-UID: 12518 X-Length: 2117 The current limit for messages in email is specified in RFC 1123, section 5.3.8. I recommend reading it. Usenet and email currently have no specified limits on headers, and they seem to work just fine. Why fix something which isn't broken? User interfaces will do what is necessary to present headers to the user, and if they have to truncate them, they will. Servers which wish to process arbitrary-length headers efficiently can simply mmap() the articles (or use a fixed buffer at the max message size) and do in-place processing with minimal calls to allocation functions. If you do add length limits, find the length limits in deployed software and document them with the same sort of advice as in the above section. But please don't add length limits which are smaller than those which function in deployed software. - Chris ------------------------- The result of which was to affirm no such limits, and we moved on from there. Now you're trying to introduce a per-field limit. Why -- what has changed recently to justify reintroducing something that was long ago rejected? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0QcUY020544 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M0Qckb020543 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0QbR7020496 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5M0QUGS073317 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:26:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Non-standard language justification (was Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506211633470.24392@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Yes. There was justification in the old article-* drafts, but it has sadly >got lost in the rush to make USEFOR as brief (and unhelpful) as possible >:-( . In other words, USEFOR-04 does not document all of the differences and contains no justification. (E.g., if "header" means something else in our document than in RFC2822, what term do we use for the "header" as defined in RFC2822?) >I have seen lots of messages from abuse@... sites, but never one asking me >to send a "full header". Lots of them asking me to send "full headers", >though. So, their non-conforming use of terminology in email is an excuse for us to propogate the use into news? I think not. The solution isn't that hard. Let me time this ... Oh my, a contradiction! o Compliant software MUST NOT generate (but MAY accept) headers of more than 998 octets. and: NOTE: There is NO restriction on the number of lines into which a header may be split, and hence there is NO restriction on the total length of a header (in particular it may, by suitable folding, be made to exceed the 998 octets restriction pertaining to a single header line). We have a restriction on the total length of a header, and then say there is no restriction on the total length of a header? (If one MUST NOT generate something, one cannot then, "by suitable folding", generate said thing.) And note that the note is patently incorrect when it refers to "the 998 octets restriction pertaining to a single header line". The 998 octet restriction is on the "header", not the 'header line'. It is RFC2047 that contains a restriction on a "header line", and that is a measly 76 octets. Subtracting the time spent dealing with the contradiction, a total of about 10 minutes converting all "header" to "header field" in the appropriate places. It would have been faster to apply sed and clean up the problem spots instead of using vi manually. Not a very good justification for continuing to use different language. Was the contradiction harder to spot because we use non-standard language? I didn't really spot it until I tried to convert from our gobbly into standard gobbly and saw immediately that there was a problem. Perhaps there is no better reason to use standard language in a technical standard? And since the point was skipped in the last response, I'll make it again. Is there a justification for the IETF-USEFOR working group web page not to have the latest complete draft? I know, I've asked for up to date DISCUSSION versions to be kept on the web page so we can all discuss the same thing and Charles nixed that because it was too hard and would take updating the web every five minutes, but now we don't even keep an up to date draft as sent to the IETF from three weeks ago? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0H9Gl011905 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5M0H9sr011904 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5M0H7kA011874 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkspO-0003Z0-7C for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:10:50 +0200 Received: from du-001-083.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.83]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:10:50 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-083.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:10:50 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: OT Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:09:53 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 6 Message-ID: <42B8AC51.3AB3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506211746.31745.blilly@erols.com> <42B8A70F.6BC0@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-083.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> So far for Re:mail and "off list" :-( | When the "Reply-To:" field is present, it indicates the mailbox(es) | to which the author of the message suggests that replies be sent. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LNmE4V082660 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LNmE82082659 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from gundel.de.clara.net (relay2.de.clara.net [212.82.225.89]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LNmBHf082621 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de) Received: from du-001-083.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.83] helo=xyzzy) by gundel.de.clara.net with smtp (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1DksgU-0005VQ-WD; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:01:39 +0200 Message-ID: <42B8A70F.6BC0@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:47:27 +0200 From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: harald@alvestrand.no Subject: [off list] Re: Admin: Please watch your language References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506211746.31745.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On list, so others can see what this is about Off list, because it's really nobody's business. > I of course have no idea what other private > warnings might have been issued, and I can only > hope that all participants are being held to > the same standard. Okay, I can confirm this. BTW, it was about a somewhat dubious joke which could be understood as an attack against you. Are we now ready with discussing private mails ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LLkpTp061023 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LLkpas061022 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:46:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LLkltn060995 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462E82991E; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5LLke5g003085(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:46:40 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5LLkaUK003084(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:46:38 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:46:30 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506211746.31745.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 09:09, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Bruce, > > this is a warning. On list and for the record. You were already warned > privately about insulting participants. On list, so others can see what this is about, and for the record, the previous warning was for use of the word "nonsense": Calling other people's statements "nonsense" is not going to help us get these documents finished. I have, before and since, seen others use the exact word, indeed the phrase "utter nonsense" has been used by several WG participants on several occasions, before and since. I of course have no idea what other private warnings might have been issued, and I can only hope that all participants are being held to the same standard. > Your language is insulting to the editors, the chairs and the members of > the working group who do not agree with you I can assure you that there was no such intent; the text quoted below (retained verbatim) was in direct response to your statement in response to Forrest's remarks which you quoted. It was intended specifically to address the striking differences between the draft under discussion and other IETF work products, by way of an analogy. And I would add that I intentionally ignored certain remarks in the message to which I was responding which: 1. could be construed as an ad-hominem attack 2. would be as true with a number of other names substituted and 3. added nothing to the substantive matters under discussion. That message is of course part of the WG archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg01052.html > - as well as being just vague > enough that it is not possible to figure out what exact text you are > objecting to, and what you want it to say instead. It was, as the context below clearly shows, a direct response to a particular statement, not a specific reference to specific text. > If you continue in this vein, I will remove your posting rights to this > list. > > Harald > > > --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 09:00:52 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> > wrote: > > > On Fri June 10 2005 02:30, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > >> After 8 years on the IESG reading drafts, I found nothing special about > >> draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04 that would warrant the "don't resemble any > >> other IETF work-product" claim. So it seems you have different criteria > >> than mine. > > > > I can't recall seeing a draft other than the one under discussion and > > its predecessors that has anything like > > "When we say 'white' we mean black, and when we say 'black' we mean red, > > and when we say 'red' we mean green. We won't tell you what we really > > mean when we say 'green' -- sometimes it might mean green and sometimes it > > might mean something else." > > Which is basically what that draft says (except it's not nearly as honest > > about the last part). Your response appeared within minutes of my message. In more than a week since, I have seen at least three messages other than this one expressing surprise and wondering specifically what the perceived problem is: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg01059.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg01075.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg01077.html That makes at least four of us who are unsure what the specific problem is. More troubling is that the substantive matters in the remaining (unquoted) part of the article appear, as far as I can tell, to remain unaddressed more than a week later. Specifically, those issues include: 1. Have criteria for determining consensus changed, and if so, what are the new criteria? This issue had been raised earlier by other WG participants. 2. Issues related to ensuring that WG consensus, once determined, is accurately reflected in the documents, permanently (or at least until some new issue warrants the Chair reopening a discussion). 3. Ground rules for discussion of specific principles and/or text. 4. A very specific suggestion for a specific "actionable item" as defined in the earlier message to which it was a response. 5. One example of earlier WG discussion and seven distinct points in response to a specific request to make a case for use of standard terminology. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LKR7uP076956 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LKR7Qq076955 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LKR6tI076924 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EB12992F; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5LKQvLo002254(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:26:57 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5LKQskH002253(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:26:55 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues, also #1030 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:26:47 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506211626.49206.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5LKR7tI076940 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 14 2005 09:05, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > I'm going to resolve the ticket as "just replace mqtext with > > *mqtext". > > > OK? > > There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's > in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. > > TTBOMK Charles says, whatever it is, in a msg-id it's case > sensitive. RFC 2822 is crystal clear on the semantics and the nature of the syntax differences from 822 and 2822 angle-addr: Since the msg-id has a similar syntax to angle-addr (identical except that comments and folding white space are not allowed), a good method is to put the domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand side. In RFC 822, the syntax was in fact identical; because of input specifically related to Usenet the syntax was changed to exclude CFWS. The semantics hasn't changed, id-right is still a domain name or domain literal, and there is nothing in 2822 that even *suggests* case-sensitivity. > Message-IDs are at the very core of Netnews. More than three > opinions about it for a clearer rough consensus might help. > Henry and Russ refuse to discuss it. Maybe somebody else has > an opinion. > Bye, Frank > > msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" > > id-local = dot-atom-text / ( DQUOTE id-quote DQUOTE ) > id-quote = ( "." [id-text] ) / > ( [id-text] "." ) / > ( [id-text] id-special [id-text] ) > > id-text = 1*( atext / "." / id-special ) > id-special = "(" / ")" / "," / ; all specials, minus ">", > "[" / "]" / "@" / ; minus DQUOTE, minus "\", > ":" / ";" / "<" / ; minus single ".", plus: > ".." / "\\" / ( "\" DQUOTE ) > > id-domain = dot-atom-text / ("[" id-literal "]") > id-literal = 1*( %d33-61 / ; printable ASCII minus > %d63-90 / ; ">", "[", "\", "]" > %d94-126 / ; plus "\[", "\\, "\]" > "\[" / "\\" / "\]" ) Usefor draft -04 section 1.6 states: This document uses a cite by reference methodology, rather than repeating the contents of other standards, which could otherwise result in subtle differences and interoperability challenges. Although this document is as a result rather short, it requires complete understanding and implementation of the normative references to be compliant. Given the stated methodology and the rationale for it (especially "otherwise result in subtle differences and interoperability challenges"), as well as the basis of our document supposed to be 2822, and the suggestion made years ago by Mark Crispin, viz: NNTP Transport Requirements The BLURDYBLOOP command in NNTP uses the message-id as an argument. The syntax for this command does not provide any way for spaces to appear in the message-id. Therefore, message-ids in the Message-ID, In-Reply-To, and References headers of a message MUST NOT contain the space character. I can see no reason for an incompatible redefinition in our document. The sole purpose of the incompatible redefinition of msg-id, already defined in RFC 2822 making concessions to specific Usenet issues, seems to be to: 1. eliminate some legal, unchanged-since-822 local-part constructs that somebody doesn't like (but I've seen no description of real issues similar to those of Mark's suggestion) (N.B. the WS part of CFWS is already excluded by 2822). 2. force-fit the existing IP address literal restrictions into the syntax instead of simply saying "an IP address literal must conform to the syntax of STD 3 (IPv4) or RFC 3513 (IPv6) or any future IP address literal syntax that may be approved by the IESG". Of course, that's already implicit in the semantic definition of RFC 2822 domain-literal/no-fold-literal, so nothing need be said at all (avoiding the somewhat tricky issue of 3513 successors and future directions. 3. introduce incompatible use of 822/2822 "special"s in the LHS. That is not backwards compatible (it may break IMAP and other Standards Track protocols). In particular (but by no mens the sole problem), introduction of unquoted parentheses in the LHS of a msg-id in structured fields (especially since comments were permitted by RFC 822) is begging for interoperability problems. Especially as the proposed syntax would permit *unbalanced* parentheses. That's going to break all sorts of quick-and-dirty hacks, and we all know that there are plenty of those around. My recommendation is to leave msg-id as defined in our primary normative reference RFC 2822 and to add such notes along the lines suggested by Mark as may be required, keeping those (in the format document) to the bare minimum necessary to deal with specific external protocol issues such as NNTP. A personal dislike for some RFC 822/2822 feature wouldn't qualify, nor would some specific broken UA that can't handle legal 822 syntax not explicitly forbidden by RFC 1036. Length limits in some ancient implementations might barely qualify for such a note (NNTP's limit of ca. 500 octets would warrant a brief note, but doesn't encroach on legal domain names), but said note should also observe that legal domain names may be as long as 255 octets, and should strongly recommend that software with such incompatible limits be upgraded ASAP. Such notes about ancient implementations might even be relegated to a separate informational document. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LI8OkI032847 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LI8OQH032846 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LI8MOP032839 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkn3S-00006C-OL for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:00:58 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-245.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.245]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:00:58 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-245.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:00:58 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:05:42 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42B856F6.A90@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-245.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ken Murchison wrote: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD > treat such timezones as equivalent to "+0000". I'd say "-0000", the conventional "unknown whatever" notation. If my guess what Harald meant was correct you've lost the MAY: Injecting agents MAY reject articles with unrecognized timezones. But maybe that's not important, or I guessed wrong, bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHt6CE019581 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LHt6Qm019575 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHt3YS019480 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkmpi-0004q8-SZ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:46 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.160]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:46 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:46:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: NEW: USEFOR 5. MIME boundary security considerations Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:45:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 20 Message-ID: <42B85253.2BE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> <E8054BEAE3C634AB06783DCB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <57C89AE6B2563AC40BBDB43E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > If you want to raise a new issue, and want to make sure it > gets a ticket, please use a subject line saying something > like > NEW: USEPRO 3.14.159 Section numbering is irrational Last proposed "security considerations" addition was in <http://mid.gmane.org/42AB12BE.553B@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass naive methods of handling parameters. Two examples: Content-Type: multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHrKVL017551 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LHrKSF017549 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHrJ6d017528 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5LHr9F1014073; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:53:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5LHr8hi014072; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050621134953.13993A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Ken Murchison wrote: > Based in the discussion of this ticket, here's what I currently have in > the document... Looks good, with one minor caveat... > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "+0000". I go along with the earlier suggestion that this should be "-0000", which is RFC2822ese for "treat as GMT but actual timezone uncertain". In reader agents, in particular, the distinction might be useful. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHbrfn098172 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LHbrbR098170 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHbiRh098010 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkmac-0000xH-0k for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:31:10 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.160]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:31:10 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:31:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:31:08 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 58 Message-ID: <42B84EDC.523@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >>> 2822 says more than that. A little further down: >> [...] >>>| some domain identifier >> Yes, that's not good enough, it SHOULD be FQDN allowing >> domain literal only for special cases. > Why? If it's good enough for RFC 2822, it's good enough > for us. RfC 2822 missed the idea of Message-IDs, a globally unique identifier forever. Where collisions and abusing foreign name spaces may have all sorts of undesirable side effects. It's already clear that we cannot use the old 2822 msg-id syntax. For NetNews our starting point is RfC 1036 anyway, that's based on 822, and 822 said: | THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. Everywhere to the right of an "@" or in path identities. > Feel free to trawl the archives. <http://mid.gmane.org/427192C3.301E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <http://mid.gmane.org/41F70AD2.7F73@xyzzy.claranet.de> <http://mid.gmane.org/41EE90D8.544@xyzzy.claranet.de> > All current UAs should (and AIUI do) send mail correctly > to addresses using domain literals. Not here. my UA sends mails to its configured smart hosts, and these smart hosts reject all mails to domain literals: "administrative restriction". >> It's bad in an <id-domain> in the case of dynamic or >> reserved IPs without a clear owner of this name space [...] > It won't cause havoc unless two sites have been allocated > the same dynamic IP No, that's wrong. They only need a simple algorithm for the LHS creating the <id-local> adding the same <id-domain> like [127.0.0.1] (the worst case) or just whatever dynamic IP they have. If it's the same <id-local> and the same IP it could cause harm. Even after weeks, it's not only about simultaneously. The only way to get a msg-id right is a proper name space, and that's normally an FQDN in the <id-domain>. A static IP is also fine. A dynamic IP is dangerous. A private IP might be FUBAR. For IPv6 it depends, still a very bad idea in the path or addresses, but maybe okay for a msg-id. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHUdMW090432 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LHUdio090431 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHUcpq090407 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5LHUbkI019359 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:30:37 -0700 Received: (qmail 19426 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jun 2005 17:30:37 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> (Ken Murchison's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:10:09 -0400") References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:30:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87slzbzkg3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> writes: > The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and > 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in > Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- > zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. > Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include > the updated <zone> construct below. > orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF > zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" > Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "+0000". This looks great to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHTggB089355 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LHTgT8089354 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LHTfq5089346 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5LHTfw2015514 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:41 -0700 Received: (qmail 19401 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jun 2005 17:29:40 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <42B84722.8000802@mibsoftware.com> (Forrest J. Cavalier, III's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:58:10 -0400") References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brb3jbj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42B8417D.295@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42B84722.8000802@mibsoftware.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:40 -0700 Message-ID: <87wtonzkhn.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J Cavalier <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > Charles offered no explanation for that change. > Changing "unparsed" to "unparseable" is a complete change in meaning. > "Unparseable" means that there is no possible way to parse. > "Unparsed" seems correct to me, based on the "MAY accept other > timezones" language. I think he was copying a change I made in the wording. "unparsed" doesn't make any sense to me -- I'm not sure, reading the word, what it's supposed to mean. The idea, however it should be expressed, is that if you don't recognize the time zone, you have to treat it as +0000 (or -0000, whatever). Maybe unrecognized would be a better word? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LH9kP3069240 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LH9kAH069239 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eagle.oceana.com (eagle.oceana.com [208.17.123.12]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LH9jRP069200 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@oceana.com) Received: from [192.168.10.26] (KEN.oceana.com [192.168.10.26]) by eagle.oceana.com (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id j5LH9cvx026313 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42B849F1.4080905@oceana.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:10:09 -0400 From: Ken Murchison <ken@oceana.com> Organization: Oceana Matrix Ltd. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040514 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0 (BAYES_00) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Since the ticket system doesn't appear to be able to CC to the list, I'm reposting here. Based in the discussion of this ticket, here's what I currently have in the document. I removed the reference to "UT" and used Russ' text regarding unknown/unparsed zones: The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as a time zone (part of <obs- zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include the updated <zone> construct below. orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such timezones as equivalent to "+0000". -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key-- http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGwjA2060980 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LGwjGW060979 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGwfJ7060955 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-199-224-121-203-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [199.224.121.203]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5LGwAgt026002; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42B84722.8000802@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:58:10 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brb3jbj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42B8417D.295@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42B8417D.295@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: > Yes. Somebody fixed the "treat unparsed timezones as "GMT", > it became "treat unparsed timezones as +0000". Later Charles > replaced "unparsed" by "unparseable". I'd use "-0000" for > this problem, and putting it all together we would get: Charles offered no explanation for that change. Changing "unparsed" to "unparseable" is a complete change in meaning. "Unparseable" means that there is no possible way to parse. "Unparsed" seems correct to me, based on the "MAY accept other timezones" language. Charles? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGn05l051103 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LGn0ej051102 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGmxrq051082 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkloP-0005tt-JG for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:21 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.160]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:21 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1042 USEFOR Newsgroups folding Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:45:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42B84443.6023@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55B2FC3A5B2AB97718A87B10@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Makes sense? Yes. As far as I'm concerned somebody should replace all the utter dubious [FWS] directly after the colon-space by a *WSP, dito all [FWS] directly before the CRLF. I don't believe in an optional "F"-folding explicitly "verboten" by a MUST NOT. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGaCqE041948 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LGaCBL041947 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LGa7iY041876 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkld6-0003MI-4w for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:29:40 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.160]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:29:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:29:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:34:05 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 38 Message-ID: <42B8417D.295@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brb3jbj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: >> But is "EST" to be considered "unknown" for this purpose (I >> would have no problem with that). > I hope not; it's documented in RFC 2822. Harald's text was: | zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" GMT is the only obs-zone you MUST accept. By a general rule elsewhere you MAY accept all 2822 obs- syntax incl. EST. >> we don't say that "GMT" is to be interpreted as "+0000". >> OTOH, RFC 2822 says it for us, and we have mentioned that >> our "GMT" is a relic of that <obs-zone>, so it _ought_ to >> be clear. Yes. Somebody fixed the "treat unparsed timezones as "GMT", it became "treat unparsed timezones as +0000". Later Charles replaced "unparsed" by "unparseable". I'd use "-0000" for this problem, and putting it all together we would get: | ...treat unparseable timezones as -0000. Charles proposed to remove the "Posting agents MAY reject". I'm not sure what Harald meant here, but "posting agents" make no sense, it probably should be "injecting agents": | Injecting agents MAY reject articles with unparseable | timezones. >> Is everybody happy to leave it at that? Somehow we're now talking about slightly different texts and interpretations, my "1028 => resolved" was wrong... ;-) Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LG3xa1010962 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LG3xEP010961 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LG3woN010923 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dkl7Y-0003pv-TD for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:57:04 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.160]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:57:04 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:57:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: OT: 78 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:00:55 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 22 Message-ID: <42B839B7.B4A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B71A1E.3CDC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIFLIo.6yA@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-160.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > What is this tool that hits you, and exactly what is the > nature of the breakage that you see? It's a "norton commander clone" with among many other features a built-in text viewer. That beast folds lines if they reach column 79. I have many "magic" 78 and 79 in my REXX scripts. > the reasons I have seen in attempting to justify a 78 or > 79 limit have nothing to do with the number of characters > needed to represent an EOL Is there any other (and preferably less ridiculous) reason... > the space occupied by visible characters in windows, > terminals, etc. ...what's that, something with proportional fonts and 79 "M" ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LFc8s2084788 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:38:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LFc8sI084787 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LFc7nf084765 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8586561B65 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10271-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA8E61B6C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:33:53 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1042 USEFOR Newsgroups folding Message-ID: <55B2FC3A5B2AB97718A87B10@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In reviewing the discussion of comments in the References header (#1029), I discovered that I had failed to create a ticket for the separate issue of folding the Newsgroups header. I have filed the ticket below. Given the experiment and the result, I suggest that we say that agents SHOULD NOT generate folded Newsgroups headers, and that the valid reason to generate them is to test whether they propagate. Makes sense? Harald ------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: USEFOR 3.1.5: Newsgroups folding? USEFOR -04 3.1.5 currently says: newsgroups = "Newsgroups:" SP newsgroup-list CRLF newsgroup-list = [FWS] newsgroup-name *( [FWS] "," [FWS] newsgroup-name ) [FWS] ..... NOTE: Observe that the syntax does not allow comments within the Newsgroups header; this is to simplify processing by relaying and serving agents which have a requirement to process this header extremely rapidly. It places no restriction on folding in the Newsgroups header. It's not clear that there is consensus in the group on this. On June 10, Charles Lindsey said: I have just submitted an article with the following headers to a server using INN 2.4.1. It certainly got stored on that server. I invite you all to see whether it arrived on any of the groups it was sent to, and especially indications of how long it took and the route it took would be interesting, since propagation using only INN 2.4+ servers may be rather slow. If you do not see it in the named groups, it might be worth looking to see if your server has filed it under "junk". Newsgroups: man.test, uk.test, misc.test, de.test Path: chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Testing folded newsgroups. Message-ID: <IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:32:18 GMT Lines: 14 It would also be helpful if others who have relaying privileges would try the same experiment. On June 12, Richard Clayton reported: the article >Message-ID: <IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> is not currently (almost 2 days later) available on news.demon.co.uk (well connected UK ISP server), news.mit.edu (MIT's server) or news.cam.ac.uk (Cambridge University's server) retention is sufficient for the article to be seen if it managed to reach these servers by any flood-fill route (direct routes would have meant that it arrived in seconds) >It would also be helpful if others who have relaying privileges would try >the same experiment. the existing result speaks for itself "Broken" articles like this don't propagate at all well :( hence any suggestion that folded newsgroups header lines are current state of the art (rather than some future possibility) seems premature Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LDxm4D081332 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LDxmn1081331 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LDxmOB081322 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5LDxlst023945 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:59:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 9284 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jun 2005 13:59:46 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <IIFKuM.6sy@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:51:58 GMT") References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <877jgpm4uz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIFKuM.6sy@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: <87y89324kt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Current practice seems to be to reject single-component names (and > various other such things), certainly in newgroup messages and maybe in > injectors as well (you already told us INN does some of that). INN only doesn't honor them in control messages in its default configuration; it has no problem with them in all other contexts. And, of course, it creates two single-component names by default (junk and control), which are then valid in Newsgroups, etc. That's only one news server, and I think other servers are far less conservative about things like that. The INN control message policy is *explicitly* a matter of policy and is intended to be a USEAGE-equivalent sort of configuration. In other words, it's *not* part of the protocol; it's part of what the local administrator can configure as part of their personal preferences. > So, in any regionally limited hierarchy, or other private or cooperating > setup, the sofware is going to have to be modified to suit (a pretty > easy hack, I imagine). If they create the groups by applying a checkgroups, there is no problem creating the single-component group. If they create a single group via ctlinnd, there is no problem creating the single-component group. No software modifications are needed. Both of those methods are common. > So it we say that certain newsgroup-names SHOULD NOT be used in Usenet > (or outside of cooperating subnets, or however else we choose to say > it), then surely we are just documenting existing practice. No. We're not. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LDu2lJ078282 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LDu2Lo078281 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LDu22H078266 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5LDu1Mi019489 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 9229 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Jun 2005 13:56:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:23 GMT") References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:56:00 -0700 Message-ID: <873brb3jbj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > But is "EST" to be considered "unknown" for this purpose (I would have no > problem with that). I hope not; it's documented in RFC 2822. > BTW, we don't say that "GMT" is to be interpreted as "+0000". OTOH, RFC > 2822 says it for us, and we have mentioned that our "GMT" is a relic of > that <obs-zone>, so it _ought_ to be clear. Is everybody happy to leave > it at that? I am. I don't want to duplicate information already in RFC 2822. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LCX0sD016511 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LCX0JE016510 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LCWxpd016471 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9B261B6C; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07643-06; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAFA61B6D; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:29:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Definition of "private" (Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts) Message-ID: <78BBACC38DC374725A4EDD07@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 20. juni 2005 10:23 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > In <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> > writes: > >> You keep using this word "private." I do not think this word means what >> you think it means. > > I think it was Harald's term. If there is doubt about its meaning, then a > definition would be needed. There is a clear enough definition of > "cooperating subnet" in son-of-1036 and in our earlier drafts. RFC 2434, guidelines for writing IANA sections: Private Use - For private or local use only, with the type and purpose defined by the local site. No attempt is made to prevent multiple sites from using the same value in different (and incompatible) ways. There is no need for IANA to review such assignments and assignments are not generally useful for interoperability. Examples: Site-specific options in DHCP [DHCP] have significance only within a single site. "X-foo:" header lines in email messages. RFC 2045 section 5.1, MIME content-type: (1) Private values (starting with "X-") may be defined bilaterally between two cooperating agents without outside registration or standardization. Such values cannot be registered or standardized. The essential point of "private" (and the one that has transfer value to this discussion) is "IETF does not try to make rules about what you do". I think. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LCWvak016444 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LCWvxZ016442 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LCWutt016406 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEF861B6F; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07643-05; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294CE61B65; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:32:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:48:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <289B2247F578FB572C20CEE7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 20. juni 2005 11:12 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> It's bad in an <id-domain> in the case of dynamic or reserved >> IPs without a clear owner of this name space - discussing havoc >> caused by msg-id collisions with say IANA is pointless. > > It won't cause havoc unless two sites have been allocated the same dynamic > IP, in which case they already have severe problems with all sorts of > protocols. 10.0.0.1. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LC4c1K085161 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LC4cxJ085160 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:04:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxfw3.q-free.com (mxfw3.q-free.com [62.92.116.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5LC4Vrp085049 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 05:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from hurricane.q-free.com ([192.168.4.14]) by mxfw3.q-free.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.2) with SMTP id M2005062114014623074 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:01:46 +0200 Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (h192-168-2-54.q-free.com [192.168.2.54] (may be forged)) by hurricane.q-free.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j5LC4S3F025537 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:04:28 +0200 Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:57:25 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:57:24 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: OT: 78 (was Forward compatibility) Message-ID: <20050621115724.GB10614@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <20050620141244.GF3586@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <IIFLqs.70n@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <IIFLqs.70n@clerew.man.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> [2005-06-21 11:11:16 +0000]: > In <20050620141244.GF3586@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> writes: > > >I always thought 78 was used to allow for a limited set of quotation > >characters? > USEAGE recommends a limit of 72 if you want to allow for quotation, and 79 > if you don't really care about being quoted. Ah... sorry, got those two numbers mixed up. Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUQ6B049670 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUNSt049559 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUH19049318 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f7.17d.d9 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:07 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCF009205 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21392 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <IIFKuM.6sy@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> <877jgpm4uz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:51:58 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <877jgpm4uz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> I just proposed such a wording in reply to Harald. s/MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT/ >> in that wording. >> And whatever wording is used for single-component names should be >> applicable also to some of the other cases under discussion (e.g. "+" >> and "-" components). >This is all utter nonsense. Drawing these arbitrary distinctions defeats >the entire point of writing a standard, namely enabling interoperable >software. Current practice seems to be to reject single-component names (and various other such things), certainly in newgroup messages and maybe in injectors as well (you already told us INN does some of that). So, in any regionally limited hierarchy, or other private or cooperating setup, the sofware is going to have to be modified to suit (a pretty easy hack, I imagine). So it we say that certain newsgroup-names SHOULD NOT be used in Usenet (or outside of cooperating subnets, or however else we choose to say it), then surely we are just documenting existing practice. BTW, I am now persuaded that it is SHOULD NOT rather than MUST NOT for these cases (since no interoperability problem arises). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUQUe049669 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUNui049552 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUHfn049304 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f6.17d.d8 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:06 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCEw09201 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21391 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <IIFK9o.6p4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:23 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >> 3.1.2 Date >> Relaying agents SHOULD treat unparsed timezones as "GMT". ^^^^^^^^ unparseable >> Posting agents MAY reject articles with unparsed timezones. >I do wonder whether that last sentence is even necessary, though, or >perhaps if it shouldn't instead be phrased as a caveat to the previous >sentence. Maybe something like: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "GMT". Yes, I prefer that, but I also accept Seth's point that it should be equivalent to "+0000". But is "EST" to be considered "unknown" for this purpose (I would have no problem with that). Actually, it is not clear from Harald's text either. Perhaps s/SHOULD/MAY/ if you want to be excessively liberal. BTW, we don't say that "GMT" is to be interpreted as "+0000". OTOH, RFC 2822 says it for us, and we have mentioned that our "GMT" is a relic of that <obs-zone>, so it _ought_ to be clear. Is everybody happy to leave it at that? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUNHv049580 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUK5k049475 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUH0t049303 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f6.17d.d7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:06 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCDu09190 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21390 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 affects USEPRO followups (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <IIFJtD.6Ls@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II87zF.871@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B323FA.1E77@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDpxG.Io2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B725A3.1D83@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:29:37 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B725A3.1D83@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >The following text in 2822 is incorrect for your msg-id: >| Where any quoted-pair appears, it is to be interpreted as the >| text character alone. That is to say, the "\" character that >| appears as part of a quoted-pair is semantically "invisible". >[...] >| The only places in this standard where quoted-pair currently >| appears are ccontent, qcontent, dcontlnt, no-fold-quote, and >| no-fold-literal. ><no-fold-quote> is used by <id-left> ><no-fold-literal> is used by <id-right> But the syntax of <no-fold-quote> and <no-fold-literal> is different in our draft than it is in RFC 2822. In particular, there is no <quoted-pair> anywhere within it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUKeV049416 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUJ0I049384 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUGWk049297 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f5.17d.d6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:05 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCGc09209 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21393 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IIFL7H.6vp@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506200907440.13937@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:59:41 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506200907440.13937@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >I find: > This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and > "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms > "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. >Ok, documented, but absolutely no justification. Yes. There was justification in the old article-* drafts, but it has sadly got lost in the rush to make USEFOR as brief (and unhelpful) as possible :-( . >Under section three, I see ABNF where we use the term "field" for what we >want to call the "header name", so we we haven't completely changed usage. Yes, that is in the ABNF, where we are giving a syntax rule that has to interwork with the rest of the RFC 2822 syntax. >When a site that is hosting spam tells me to send the "full header" of >email I report as spam, should I be asking them "which header do you want >in its entirety?" I have seen lots of messages from abuse@... sites, but never one asking me to send a "full header". Lots of them asking me to send "full headers", though. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUIOQ049380 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUHEM049322 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUGVV049259 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f3.17d.d4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:03 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCIs09223 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21395 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: OT: 78 (was Forward compatibility) Message-ID: <IIFLqs.70n@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <20050620141244.GF3586@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:11:16 GMT Lines: 21 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <20050620141244.GF3586@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> writes: >I always thought 78 was used to allow for a limited set of quotation >characters? Hmmmm! I have never seen that explanation offered before, and it is pretty weak insofar as it only allows for one level of quotation. USEAGE recommends a limit of 72 if you want to allow for quotation, and 79 if you don't really care about being quoted. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUJCt049413 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5LBUJrp049404 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5LBUGvw049294 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 04:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b7f6f4.17d.d5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:04 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5LBCHn09217 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21394 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: OT: 78 (was: Forward compatibility) Message-ID: <IIFLIo.6yA@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B71A1E.3CDC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:06:24 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B71A1E.3CDC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >It's an ordinary "off by one" thing, I have exactly one tool >where it hits me. If you port *NIX software to DOS, Windows, >or OS/2, CrLf is one character more than Lf, and then a simple >if ( 80 <= n ) strikes for 78 + 2. What is this tool that hits you, and exactly what is the nature of the breakage that you see? All the reasons I have seen in attempting to justify a 78 or 79 limit have nothing to do with the number of characters needed to represent an EOL, and have everthing to do with the space occupied by visible characters in windows, terminals, etc. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5L8dQZh004581 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5L8dQTe004580 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5L8dPWj004568 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA4C61B6A; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05023-08; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E4A61B6D; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:04:15 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <E68082716667939559567CFE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506201731.j5KHVQj02302@panix5.panix.com> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506201731.j5KHVQj02302@panix5.panix.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 20. juni 2005 13:31 -0400 Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> wrote: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: > >> Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such >> timezones as equivalent to "GMT". > > Since GMT is a "SHOULD NOT" I'd prefer not to bless it. Is there any > reason not to write '... equivalent to "+0000".'? None that I can see. Good catch! Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KKWkKm026169 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KKWj7J026166 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KKWf1W025958 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkSnb-0007sr-R5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:15 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:15 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:15 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: #1003 affects USEPRO followups (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:00 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42B725A3.1D83@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II87zF.871@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B323FA.1E77@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDpxG.Io2@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> quoted-pair backslash _is_ "semantically invisible" in >> both <id-left> and <id-right>, because 2822 says so. > No, a "very simple parser" probably would not treat the > backslash specially at all. IBTD. But this is actually a part of "#1003 fix msg-id". The following text in 2822 is incorrect for your msg-id: | Where any quoted-pair appears, it is to be interpreted as the | text character alone. That is to say, the "\" character that | appears as part of a quoted-pair is semantically "invisible". [...] | The only places in this standard where quoted-pair currently | appears are ccontent, qcontent, dcontlnt, no-fold-quote, and | no-fold-literal. <no-fold-quote> is used by <id-left> <no-fold-literal> is used by <id-right> The "\"-problem does not exist in the <id-local>, <id-domain>, <id-quote>, and <id-literal> incarnation of the <msg-id> ABNF. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KK3QUL093692 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KK3QSG093691 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KK3OE4093651 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkSMA-0006PA-Ld for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:54:55 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:54:54 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:54:54 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:57:16 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 7 Message-ID: <42B71F9C.8D7@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050620104527.28187A-100000@spsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > you've got one remaining mention of "UT" (in the "SHOULD NOT > generate") which is probably best removed #1028 => resolved Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KJZtHk065397 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KJZtU3065396 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KJZnXC065206 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DkRxW-0008B0-9r for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:29:26 +0200 Received: from du-001-139.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.139]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:29:26 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-139.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:29:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: OT: 78 (was: Forward compatibility) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:33:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42B71A1E.3CDC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-139.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > I have never seen such a window in which complicated things > happened if you tried to put a character in column 79. Hence > I never understood the "78" figure in RFC 2822, in spite of > asking for a justification on several occasions. It's an ordinary "off by one" thing, I have exactly one tool where it hits me. If you port *NIX software to DOS, Windows, or OS/2, CrLf is one character more than Lf, and then a simple if ( 80 <= n ) strikes for 78 + 2. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KHVTSN031510 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KHVT5I031509 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KHVRAf031439 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F9058AD7 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5KHVQj02302; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506201731.j5KHVQj02302@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> (message from Russ Allbery on Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:46 -0700) Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: > Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such > timezones as equivalent to "GMT". Since GMT is a "SHOULD NOT" I'd prefer not to bless it. Is there any reason not to write '... equivalent to "+0000".'? Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGXoQs079854 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KGXofW079853 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGXosC079794 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5KGXcGS040395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:33:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506200907440.13937@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>If we use RFC2822 terms differently than RFC2822, then we must have >>already documented the difference and the justification somewhere. >Indeed. Which is why USEFOR-04 documents it. Great. So, I'll go to the IETF-USEFOR working group web page and look under "latest drafts" to see what we say ... ummmm, nope, no USEFOR-04. According to us, our latest draft is USEFOR-03. No problem, IETF itself has documents we don't provide to group members, so I'll use their copy. I find: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. Ok, documented, but absolutely no justification. Under section three, I see ABNF where we use the term "field" for what we want to call the "header name", so we we haven't completely changed usage. I find no mention at all of the term "body", so not only do we not justify a change to that term, we don't document it. While scanning the entire USEFOR-04 document for the word "header" I find a lot of places where the word occurs, which could easily be changed to follow RFC2822 terms using a good editing program. It would take more effort to list all the places than to just make the changes. So, what is the justification? >The justification is long standing usage in the News community (and in the >email community too), and in previous News documents. Really? I've always learned that a message consists of a header and a body, and that the header consists of one or more header fields. Sometimes the word "line" is used instead of "field", but the essence is the same. When a site that is hosting spam tells me to send the "full header" of email I report as spam, should I be asking them "which header do you want in its entirety?" This "we're news, they're email" nonsense doesn't justify confusing and contradictory use of terms between the two. The fact that we are working on a technical standard an not a "USENET for Dummies" book means we ought to use the correct technical terms and not slang. >Either we change all of the relevent terms consistently, or we change none >of them. Mix'n'match certainly won't work. That's right. And since there is no valid reason to use different terms (other than "ohh, look how hard it would be to change all the places it occurs...") we should be consistent. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGKFW4065670 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KGKF1Z065669 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KGKEu7065645 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-228.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.228]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6ecb7.4327.b1 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:20:07 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KGCCh27093 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21379 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <IIDr5I.Izz@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:12:53 GMT Lines: 70 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> 2822 says more than that. A little further down: >[...] >>| some domain identifier >Yes, that's not good enough, it SHOULD be FQDN allowing domain >literal only for special cases. Why? If it's good enough for RFC 2822, it's good enough for us. >> Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad >> Thing to use in an <id-right>. >That's not how I recall it, ... Feel free to trawl the archives. >It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News >monster in the case of IPv6 colons. By the time IPv6 addresses actually come to be used in a Path header, one can reasonably suppose that software will have been upgraded. Even where it is not, it is only the un-upgraded site that will experience any problem (i.e. it may erroneously relay an article to a peer that has already had it). >It's bad in reply addresses where normal users with a normal >smart host and a normal MUA (not-direct to IP, let alone IPv6) >might be unable to use it. All current UAs should (and AIUI do) send mail correctly to addresses using domain literals. >It's bad in an <id-domain> in the case of dynamic or reserved >IPs without a clear owner of this name space - discussing havoc >caused by msg-id collisions with say IANA is pointless. It won't cause havoc unless two sites have been allocated the same dynamic IP, in which case they already have severe problems with all sorts of protocols. >So it's a Bad Thing everywhere, exactly as STD 11 says. No. >only replace the bogus 2822 notation <id-right> by <id-domain>. >STD 11 is also normative for RfC 1036, so if you introduce the >unclear <id-right> concept in USEFOR this would also pop-up in >a "differences from RfC 1036" appendix: "random garbage in the ><id-right> of a <msg-id> is now allowed, but not recommended". A domain literal (if it is syntactically a valid Internet address) is not "random garbage". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KFPmO5008514 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KFPmi2008513 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KFPlqh008476 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5KFPkGm003192 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 19319 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jun 2005 15:25:46 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:44:51 +0200") References: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:25:46 -0700 Message-ID: <873brdm4n9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > 3.1.2 Date > The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 > of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section > 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as time zone (part of <obs-zone>), > although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, > agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include the updated > <zone> construct below. > orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF > zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" > Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which > include either "UT" or "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> > constructs which include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. > Relaying agents SHOULD treat unparsed timezones as "GMT". > Posting agents MAY reject articles with unparsed timezones. > (the last part may belong in USEPRO. But as Russ argues in another > context... it affects the way you want to write your article parser....) The first sentence of the last paragraph is a format issue. The second sentence is somewhat borderline, I agree, particularly since (unless I'm mistaken) the format document hasn't really defined what rejecting an article means. But the common-sense definition is applicable, so it's not a huge deal. I do wonder whether that last sentence is even necessary, though, or perhaps if it shouldn't instead be phrased as a caveat to the previous sentence. Maybe something like: Software that accepts dates with unknown timezones SHOULD treat such timezones as equivalent to "GMT". The rule isn't specific to relaying agents, after all, and that sentence leaves open the possibility that software may decide to not deal with such timezones at all. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KFLDEg003482 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KFLDeN003481 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KFLCfk003459 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5KFL9V7016208 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:21:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 19199 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jun 2005 15:21:09 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:23:17 GMT") References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:21:08 -0700 Message-ID: <877jgpm4uz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Is there such a thing as a "regionally limited" group? Yes. > I think you will find some servers (supernews, I imagine) which carry > the groups for every known region. And you would be wrong. But really, it hardly matters; the success of private peering arrangements in keeping certain regional hierarchies regional is really entirely beside the point that we're discussing. > But groups internal to a large organization, or only available by > subscription (or other contractual arrangements, such as Usenet2) are > definitely "private" or "cooperating subnets", and so they may have > single-component names if they want. At any rate, that seems to be the > current practice, more or less. > I suspect that, as regards acceptance by injecting agents and > propagation, the standard should say "SHOULD NOT" rather than "MUST NOT" > (though I would leave it as MUST NOT for newgroup messages). But it > should still be accompanied by wording to indicate that exceptions to > the SHGOULD are really only for private/cooperating use. > I just proposed such a wording in reply to Harald. s/MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT/ > in that wording. > And whatever wording is used for single-component names should be > applicable also to some of the other cases under discussion (e.g. "+" > and "-" components). This is all utter nonsense. Drawing these arbitrary distinctions defeats the entire point of writing a standard, namely enabling interoperable software. The software used for so-called "private" hierarchies is no different than the software used for any other "public" hierarchy, and saying that they have different requirements is like saying that certain headers "SHOULD NOT" be used in a mail message when it's sent outside of one's local organization. It's an absurd rule; mail software has to be able to deal with mail from any source, archives of mail messages have to be portable and parsable, and mail software has no way of knowing whether such an arbitrary distinction applies to a particular message. Usenet is no different. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KEkmQK068041 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KEkmsj068040 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KEklGn067992 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5KEkiF1028500; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5KEkiLS028499; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:46:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text In-Reply-To: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050620104527.28187A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Reviewing the discussion on #1028, I suggest the following modification: Looks reasonable... except that you've got one remaining mention of "UT" (in the "SHOULD NOT generate") which is probably best removed -- without the earlier context, it's pretty cryptic and probably unnecessary. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KEJiDU039880 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KEJijw039877 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:19:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxfw3.q-free.com (mxfw3.q-free.com [62.92.116.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5KEJfr9039775 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from hurricane.q-free.com ([192.168.4.14]) by mxfw3.q-free.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.2) with SMTP id M2005062016165309055 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:16:53 +0200 Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (h192-168-2-54.q-free.com [192.168.2.54] (may be forged)) by hurricane.q-free.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j5KEJZ3F000785 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:19:36 +0200 Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:12:44 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:12:44 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility Message-ID: <20050620141244.GF3586@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> [2005-06-20 09:53:34 +0000]: > In <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > > Indeed. I have seen lots of 80 column windows which make life complicated > if you actually try to put a character in column 80 (hence the advice to > keep lines at or below 79). > > But I have never seen such a window in which complicated things happened > if you tried to put a character in column 79. Hence I never understood the > "78" figure in RFC 2822, in spite of asking for a justification on several > occasions. I always thought 78 was used to allow for a limited set of quotation characters? When following up on a message with 79/80 characters wide lines, formatting any quoted text is a pain. Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ67e008687 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KCZ6Ga008682 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ3ca008581 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-110.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.110]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6a55b.107c0.e3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:15:39 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KBCEc24430 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21374 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility Message-ID: <IIDnHA.I9H@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:53:34 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Kai Henningsen wrote: >> 80 character screens certainly still exist. >Every normal text mode window uses it, 80 is better than 40. Indeed. I have seen lots of 80 column windows which make life complicated if you actually try to put a character in column 80 (hence the advice to keep lines at or below 79). But I have never seen such a window in which complicated things happened if you tried to put a character in column 79. Hence I never understood the "78" figure in RFC 2822, in spite of asking for a justification on several occasions. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ5oa008650 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KCZ5H7008647 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ36o008582 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-110.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.110]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6a55d.107c0.e6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:15:41 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KBCHK24440 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21376 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <IIDout.IH4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:23:17 GMT Lines: 56 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >You keep using this word "private." I do not think this word means what >you think it means. I think it was Harald's term. If there is doubt about its meaning, then a definition would be needed. There is a clear enough definition of "cooperating subnet" in son-of-1036 and in our earlier drafts. >People use the same software and the same protocol for both world-wide >public groups, regionally limited groups, groups hosted by a single >server, or groups internal to (often large) organizations or ISPs. The >protocol description should be the same for all of them, since it is the >same protocol and the same interoperability concerns apply. If you want >to draw distinctions about best practices, that's what USEAGE is for. Is there such a thing as a "regionally limited" group? I think you will find some servers (supernews, I imagine) which carry the groups for every known region. Anyway, I think Usenet = "world-wide public groups including regional groups of every sort". They should be obeying all the rules (including no single-component names). Whether single server groups are part of Usenet is debateable. If they are publicly available, then they will surely "leak" sooner of later (as Micrsoft discovered). For that reason, I think the single-component "spamcop" is regrettable. But groups internal to a large organization, or only available by subscription (or other contractual arrangements, such as Usenet2) are definitely "private" or "cooperating subnets", and so they may have single-component names if they want. At any rate, that seems to be the current practice, more or less. I suspect that, as regards acceptance by injecting agents and propagation, the standard should say "SHOULD NOT" rather than "MUST NOT" (though I would leave it as MUST NOT for newgroup messages). But it should still be accompanied by wording to indicate that exceptions to the SHGOULD are really only for private/cooperating use. I just proposed such a wording in reply to Harald. s/MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT/ in that wording. And whatever wording is used for single-component names should be applicable also to some of the other cases under discussion (e.g. "+" and "-" components). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ6Nm008686 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KCZ570008669 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ3D6008580 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-110.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.110]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6a55c.107c0.e5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:15:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KBCFY24436 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:15 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21375 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Semantic & Header content (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <IIDnvq.ICF@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A3374E52715B4AA15C977EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:02:14 GMT Lines: 63 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <A3374E52715B4AA15C977EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On torsdag, juni 16, 2005 12:11:50 +0000 Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> o All agents MUST generate headers so that at least one space >> immediately follows the ':' separating the header name and the >> header contents (for compatibility with deployed software). News >> agents MAY accept headers which do not contain the required space. >> >> o The header contents of every header line (including the first and >> any that are subsequently folded) MUST contain at least one non- >> whitespace character. >> >> NOTE: This means that no header content defined by or >> referenced by this document can be empty. As a result, this >> document updates the <unstructured> construct from Section >> 3.2.6 of [RFC2822] as follows: >> >> unstructured = 1*( [FWS] utext ) [FWS] >The first instance seems to say that the space after the colon is not >considered part of the header content. Indeed, but the definition of "header field body" in RFC 2822 clearly includes that SP (that was the initial example which lead to the need to define something more precise for USEPRO). >The second one is formally wrong (you can't have "header content" of a >"header line", since "header content" means the whole header field's >content). Yes. >The third one implicitly uses "empty" in the sense of "something that is >not whitespace". That's not clear either. Perhaps the word "(in)visible" would help. >Since this paragraph needs some rework anyway to be totally >self-consistent, perhaps we should free up "content" for what Charles >wants, and define as follows: OK. > "header field content" ("content" for short) ... Well it will be "header content" or "header field content" according to whether we decide to revert to strict RFC 2822 termonology, or to retain the "News-style" terminology in the present draft. I still vote for the latter. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ67A008685 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KCZ5bA008668 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ3NU008579 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-110.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.110]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6a55b.107c0.e4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:15:39 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KBCJF24456 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:19 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21378 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IIDpxG.Io2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II87zF.871@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B323FA.1E77@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:46:28 GMT Lines: 47 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B323FA.1E77@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: > [backslash] >>> ignoring these "invisible" characters in a msg-id-list is a >>> bad plan for the References construction and trimming > >> No, look at our current syntax for <msg-id>. There is not a >> <quoted-pair> in sight. >Are you sure that a valid 2822 <id-left> or <id-right> never >shows up in the References of a Netnews article ? It might, if some gateway lets it through. But if the References header contains <ab\cd@example.com> and the article itself contains <abcd@example.com), do not expect a news reader to thread the article in its proper place. Come to that, I doubt many mail readers would actually thread it correctly. >As an implementor of any combined MUA and news UA I'd probably >pick a very simple parser, and then the quoted-pair backslash >_is_ "semantically invisible" in both <id-left> and <id-right>, >because 2822 says so. No, a "very simple parser" probably would not treat the backslash specially at all. >It's no real problem for the References if some non-canoncial >Message-IDs are mangled by a simple implementation. But I'm >stunned by your confidence that everybody implements USEFOR >correctly only because we say MUST and hide major differences >from 2822 deep within obscure <mqspecial> or <no-fold-literal> They are not hidden. There is explanation, including the various <abcd@example.com> examples. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ5T5008651 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5KCZ5No008648 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5KCZ3H0008578 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-110.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.110]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b6a55a.107c0.e2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:15:38 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5KBCIK24450 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:12:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21377 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IIDpCy.IKD@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506171127520.4283@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:34:10 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506171127520.4283@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >"Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>No, not in USEFOR as currently written. >That's why I wrote "that's what RFC2822 tells us." >If we use RFC2822 terms differently than RFC2822, then we must have >already documented the difference and the justification somewhere. Indeed. Which is why USEFOR-04 documents it. The justification is long standing usage in the News community (and in the email community too), and in previous News documents. >According to RFC2822, it already is "header field body". Do we have a >reason for it to be something else? Either we change all of the relevent terms consistently, or we change none of them. Mix'n'match certainly won't work. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5K7ixbs025182 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5K7iw67025166 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5K7iuC8025104 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A81061B44 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:44:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14076-06 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:44:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC8C61AF3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:44:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:44:51 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1028 Usefor 3.1.2 Timezones: Suggested text Message-ID: <7006EEEAC6E596899FF11D90@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Trying to get a simple one settled..... Reviewing the discussion on #1028, I suggest the following modification: OLD: 3.1.2 Date The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2. However, the use of "UT" and "GMT" as time zones (part of <obs-zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include the updated <zone> construct below. orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "UT" / "GMT" Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include either "UT" or "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>, some of which have ambiguous interpretations and would have adverse effects on the Netnews protocols. NEW: 3.1.2 Date The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2. However, the use of "GMT" as time zone (part of <obs-zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include the updated <zone> construct below. orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "GMT" Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include either "UT" or "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>. Relaying agents SHOULD treat unparsed timezones as "GMT". Posting agents MAY reject articles with unparsed timezones. (the last part may belong in USEPRO. But as Russ argues in another context... it affects the way you want to write your article parser....) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5J754Il002494 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:05:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5J754Ab002493 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:05:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5J751JQ002338 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050CD61B44 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:05:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24717-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:04:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F02661AF5 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:04:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:04:54 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: ADMIN: Ticket system changes Message-ID: <A25DC41C359875A6B8F8BB44@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I've had a new field added to the ticket system configuration. It's called "Discussion", and is intended to reflect the state of discussion on the issue. The values are: No discussion No consensus Text needed Text proposed Text accepted Proposed no change No change needed Document updated The intention is that "no consensus" is the state while we're still talking; "text needed" is when we think we know a solution but don't have a text yet; "text proposed" and "proposed no change" should be obvious; "text accepted" and "no change needed" are the states after consensus on the issue is declared. Once the editor integrates the text into his running copy, he can change the value to "Document updated" and close the ticket. This proved an effective means of working in the IASA BCP discussions, so I'd like to do it again. As part of this change, I've changed ticket #1008 to be "Text accepted" rather than being a closed ticket. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5I8ufrS014186 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5I8ufq8014183 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5I8uefI014136 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3319661B03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:56:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27975-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:56:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D216861B01 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:56:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:56:35 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: Posters this week Message-ID: <80A11F756B025CB669C3E974@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Just FYI.... Searching for msgs since 11-Jun-2005 1 39 28.06 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> 2 24 45.32 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> 3 21 60.43 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> 4 17 72.66 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> 5 7 77.70 Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> 6 6 82.01 Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> 7 6 86.33 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> 8 4 89.21 "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> 9 4 92.09 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> 10 2 93.53 Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> 11 2 94.96 kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) 12 2 96.40 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> 13 2 97.84 Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> 14 2 99.28 Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> 15 1 100.00 Sebastian Brocks <mail@sebastian-brocks.de> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HJgbvf035614 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HJgbeF035613 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HJga0k035607 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjMdN-0005Ur-2j for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:36:09 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:36:09 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:36:09 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:39:28 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42B326F0.3E8F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873bridzk0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II8DHt.8tp@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > Why-oh-why are we spending so much time and effort on > rediscovering wheels which were invented years ago in our > earlier drafts? Because so far not one draft back to MESSFOR got the <msg-id> right, and so it's the natural next step to visit the other fundamental idea of NetNews again, the <newsgroup-name>. Apparently Harald has a knack to ask the right questions, if we couldn't answer it we'd be in serious trouble. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HJTtOF022104 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HJTtrZ022103 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HJTrnq022086 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjMR3-000391-Ql for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:23:25 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:23:25 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:23:25 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:26:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 37 Message-ID: <42B323FA.1E77@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II87zF.871@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: [backslash] >> ignoring these "invisible" characters in a msg-id-list is a >> bad plan for the References construction and trimming > No, look at our current syntax for <msg-id>. There is not a > <quoted-pair> in sight. Are you sure that a valid 2822 <id-left> or <id-right> never shows up in the References of a Netnews article ? As an implementor of any combined MUA and news UA I'd probably pick a very simple parser, and then the quoted-pair backslash _is_ "semantically invisible" in both <id-left> and <id-right>, because 2822 says so. It's no real problem for the References if some non-canoncial Message-IDs are mangled by a simple implementation. But I'm stunned by your confidence that everybody implements USEFOR correctly only because we say MUST and hide major differences from 2822 deep within obscure <mqspecial> or <no-fold-literal> | The only places in this standard where quoted-pair currently | appears are ccontent, qcontent, dcontent, no-fold-quote, and | no-fold-literal. How did the 2822 author get away with "this standard", Bruce on vacation ? Anyway, if you want to stick to a <no-fold-literal> in your syntax you need again more prose explainig that you've disabled this rule in USEFOR. With <id-quote>, <id-literal>, etc. in my syntax this problem doesn't exist right from the start. No extra prose needed. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIsRik083437 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HIsROc083436 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIsPcQ083409 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjLtG-0005M6-62 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:48:30 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:48:30 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:48:30 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:50:04 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 48 Message-ID: <42B31B5C.7F4F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > 2822 says more than that. A little further down: [...] >| some domain identifier Yes, that's not good enough, it SHOULD be FQDN allowing domain literal only for special cases. >> RfC 2822 also doesn't discourage domain literals generally >> like STD 11. We have to fix it by a clear SHOULD NOT as in >> STD 11. > Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad > Thing to use in an <id-right>. That's not how I recall it, and a domain-literal is everywhere a Bad Thing: It's bad in the path-identifier where it breaks Bruce's B-News monster in the case of IPv6 colons. It's bad in reply addresses where normal users with a normal smart host and a normal MUA (not-direct to IP, let alone IPv6) might be unable to use it. It's bad in an <id-domain> in the case of dynamic or reserved IPs without a clear owner of this name space - discussing havoc caused by msg-id collisions with say IANA is pointless. So it's a Bad Thing everywhere, exactly as STD 11 says. >| any <no-fold-literal> used for the <id-right> should be of >| the form of an Internet address, in accordance with Section >| 3.4.1 of [RFC2822]. All these tons of text are so obvious and unnecessary if you'd only replace the bogus 2822 notation <id-right> by <id-domain>. STD 11 is also normative for RfC 1036, so if you introduce the unclear <id-right> concept in USEFOR this would also pop-up in a "differences from RfC 1036" appendix: "random garbage in the <id-right> of a <msg-id> is now allowed, but not recommended". No idea how you can hope to smuggle this through a "last call". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIWNVY059044 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HIWNTX059036 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIWIxR058696 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5HIWBGS085565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:11 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506171127520.4283@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >No, not in USEFOR as currently written. That's why I wrote "that's what RFC2822 tells us." If we use RFC2822 terms differently than RFC2822, then we must have already documented the difference and the justification somewhere. >There is a discussion in progress >as to whether to change USEFOR to adhere strictly to the RFC 2822 >terminology, and if that change is made then the "header body" that I have >asked for will become "header field body". According to RFC2822, it already is "header field body". Do we have a reason for it to be something else? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIQxRg052089 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HIQxJ9052088 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HIQv7l052037 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjLRW-0000oq-B7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:19:50 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:19:50 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:19:50 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:13:30 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 31 Message-ID: <42B312CA.E19@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Kai Henningsen wrote: > When doing my small bit of C programming on that machine, I > certainly need to cope with fixed-80 format for C source. And with the RfC format they could punch a serial card number in the columns 73..80, and that is exactly as it should be :-) > 80 character screens certainly still exist. Every normal text mode window uses it, 80 is better than 40. >> making column 80 "dangerous territory". > Curses fortunately can handle that On a PC with a straight forward BIOS interface, virtual or real, I found no way around "stay clear of row 25 column 80 in the string output function". Yes, PCcurses handles it, but internally it has to care about it. > The one annoying problem left is that these terminals > usually cannot write into the lower right corner (because > doing so causes immediate scrolling). It works if you use single char output in that position - test Mark's PDcurses or for DOS test PCcurses (sorry, the latter has no mouse support). For ncurses it would be a problem in the termcap-layer, not in ncurses. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHq0qh012683 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HHq0Oq012678 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHpxWo012654 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjKug-0003qe-VP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:45:54 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:45:54 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:45:54 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:49:47 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 20 Message-ID: <42B30D3B.6B7A@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <56F1BBE49C633BB0655C3AE3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II87GG.81u@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > See also separate discussion between Russ and Henry as to > whether "cooperating subnets" are a useful concept to > mention. Nowhere I've seen a concept "something like a path MUST have at least two components", the only exception I know is 2821 with its "at least one dot rule", and the author suggested to fix it in a future 2821bis for the rare cases like `host ai` ai = 209.88.68.34 Essentially the same idea or problem as a newsgroup spamcop, or any filesystem with interesting ideas about /dev/ etc. And for a filesystem you wouldn't forbid files in the root directory only to protect pseudo-subdirectories like /dev/. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHdJIt099042 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HHdJv4099041 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHdI2m098982 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5HHdHb3030518 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:39:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 9757 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2005 17:39:17 -0000 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617124523.9951H-100000@spsystems.net> (Henry Spencer's message of "Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:50:48 -0400 (EDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617124523.9951H-100000@spsystems.net> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <87psukublm.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: >> People use the same software and the same protocol for both world-wide >> public groups, regionally limited groups, groups hosted by a single >> server, or groups internal to (often large) organizations or ISPs. The >> protocol description should be the same for all of them... > Except that it *can't* be, because practices which we *cannot* endorse > as the worldwide standard are common in some of those cooperating > subnets -- for example, the "just send eight" approach to > greater-than-ASCII character sets is widespread in non-English > monolingual subnets, but any standard which aims at full > interoperability has to be more cautious. "Just send eight" is common in world-wide newsgroups just as much as it is in more limited hierarchies. That issue is not related to cooperating subnets and the concept of cooperating subnets is not particularly helpful in resolving or working around it. Do you have any other examples of places where you feel this concept is useful? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHb440096544 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HHb4Jp096543 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHb4Yf096537 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5HHb3s8029449 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 9704 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2005 17:37:02 -0000 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617125342.9951I-100000@spsystems.net> (Henry Spencer's message of "Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:48 -0400 (EDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617125342.9951I-100000@spsystems.net> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:37:02 -0700 Message-ID: <87u0jwubpd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: > One of the things which certainly has slowed this process down greatly > is people who obsess about (e.g.) how a "format" document isn't supposed > to talk about anything but "format" (defined in some narrow way), > instead of being willing to make pragmatic compromises to convey the > necessary information most effectively. I find format vs. protocol to be a useful distinction for writing software but only if it's done right. If we just jumble things between the two documents, it becomes much harder to read than if we had one document. If we want to abandon the idea and just write one document, that's something that can be argued for, but if not, we should do the split in a way that actually helps keep concepts separate rather than just confuse the issue. The idea, at least in my opinion, is that one should be able to write an article parser off the format document, and then put the policy layer of the software around it while referencing the protocol document. I know that you opposed splitting the document in the first place, so I'm not surprised that you consider the discussions that result from trying to implement the split to be a waste of time. Certainly, if your feeling is that it should be one document, it all *is* a waste of time. However, my understanding of why we split the document in the beginning was to try to speed up the process of dealing with the format document by avoiding creeping featurism and try to tighten the scope. Accordingly, I'm taking the tack of resisting attempts that I see as trying to reintroduce all the creeping featurism problems we were having into the format document, thus miring it in all of the debates we were trying to sidestep by splitting the documents in the first place. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHXHMU092359 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HHXH6n092357 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HHXF0f092345 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DjKcq-0000Zm-FT for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:27:28 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.24 ([62.80.58.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:27:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.24 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:27:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Semantic & Header content Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:28:07 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 89 Message-ID: <42B30827.329D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A3374E52715B4AA15C977EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.24 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > The term "header content" (RFC 2822 "field body") is used in > 3 places in USEFOR, all of which are in this paragraph: I try to translate this for you, otherwise you'd be forced to read several hundred rounds of ping pong in the [FWS]-threads: >| All agents MUST generate headers so that at least one space >| immediately follows the ':' separating the header name and >| the header contents (for compatibility with deployed >| software). That says we really want SP (not WSP or FWS) after the colon. >| News agents MAY accept headers which do not contain the >| required space. Optionally we'd accept no separator (or a HT) after the colon, but we never generate header fields this way. >| The header contents of every header line (including the >| first and any that are subsequently folded) MUST contain at >| least one non-whitespace character. That says we don't allow 2*(CRLF 1*WSP) as in LWSP with an apparently empty line. Same concept as in 2822 FWS or CFWS. It also says that we don't allow a first folding before the first non-whitespace character in the header field body. So you can have a Subject:<SP><WSP>hello<CRLF> <WSP>world but not a Subject:<SP><CRLF> <WSP>hello world. That's a major difference from RfC 2822, and it's important. It's an extension of an 2822 "MUST NOT" about CFWS resulting in apparently empty lines in the header. >| NOTE: This means that no header content defined by or >| referenced by this document can be empty. That says that we don't have e.g. empty Bcc: headers like mail. >| As a result, this document updates the <unstructured> >| construct from Section 3.2.6 of [RFC2822] as follows: >| unstructured = 1*( [FWS] utext ) [FWS] We also have no apparently empty Subject, Summary, or Comments. We want at least one VCHAR or NO-WS-CTL in every line of the folded header field body. Actually some of "us" (= me) think that NO-WS-CTL is madness, but it's no syntax problem here: Users are free to experiment with FF, VT, etc. as they see fit, only for the msg-id we explicitly killed this weird NO-WS-CTL. Replacing <utext> by ( VCHAR / NO-WS-CTL ) is better: Without <obs-utext> that's just what it is. With a "note" to send all complaints to the persons listed in RfC 2822 chapter 8. <beg> The <obs-utext> bit is about isolated CR or LF outside of CRLF, so we really don't want this anymore in Netnews header fields. > The second one is formally wrong (you can't have "header > content" of a "header line", since "header content" means the > whole header field's content). It's about the part of the header field body in a folded header field line. Maybe modulo terminology that makes sense for me. > The third one implicitly uses "empty" in the sense of > "something that is not whitespace". That's not clear either. It uses "not empty" in the sense of ( VCHAR / NO-WS-CTL ), "no header content" [...] "can be empty". Where "empty" is simply ( WSP / CR / LF ) which is just the same as ( FWS / CR / LF ). > perhaps we should free up "content" for what Charles wants, [...] > Does that make sense? Yes. You've almost hit another USEFOR rathole from my POV: Using [FWS] instead of *WSP only because RfC 2822 says [CFWS]. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGtqIU051126 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HGtqal051124 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGtpX9051085 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5HGtmF1012186; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5HGtmpW012185; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <87y899q6ff.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617125342.9951I-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > I found those words in the old draft-13. Why-oh-why are we spending so > > much time and effort on rediscovering wheels which were invented years > > ago in our earlier drafts? > > Because what we had years ago in our earlier drafts was not publishable. > There is no magic pixie dust in the above wording that makes me happy with > calling to.* newsgroups a format issue. One of the things which certainly has slowed this process down greatly is people who obsess about (e.g.) how a "format" document isn't supposed to talk about anything but "format" (defined in some narrow way), instead of being willing to make pragmatic compromises to convey the necessary information most effectively. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGoqcl045981 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HGoq2L045980 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGoprT045959 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5HGomF1012160; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5HGomEN012159; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:50:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050617124523.9951H-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > People use the same software and the same protocol for both world-wide > public groups, regionally limited groups, groups hosted by a single > server, or groups internal to (often large) organizations or ISPs. The > protocol description should be the same for all of them... Except that it *can't* be, because practices which we *cannot* endorse as the worldwide standard are common in some of those cooperating subnets -- for example, the "just send eight" approach to greater-than-ASCII character sets is widespread in non-English monolingual subnets, but any standard which aims at full interoperability has to be more cautious. ("Just send eight" is common in email, too, but RFC 2822 explicitly repudiates it.) Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGicO4039562 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HGic7l039561 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGib4Z039550 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5HGialE030250 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:44:37 -0700 Received: (qmail 6969 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2005 16:44:36 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II8DHt.8tp@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:29:53 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873bridzk0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II8DHt.8tp@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:44:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87y899q6ff.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> In other words, I'm looking at the distinction between the ABNF for a >> newsgroup name, which has to allow such things as junk or to.* or >> control.* and which is used for the Newsgroups header, the Xref header, >> and so on, and the rules about what newsgroups you should use for what >> purpose. The latter feels very strongly like a USEPRO issue to me. > Except that several people have expressed a strong preference for > keeping all restrictions of this nature at one place, in USEFOR. I know. I understand their point, but I disagree with those people. If we have to put all of the restrictions in the same place, I think putting them all in USEPRO is actually the best of a couple of bad options and only put the permissive ABNF into USEFOR (since in practice that's a common implementation strategy anyway -- namely, to allow anything in the software but then add restrictions in policy). > But, of course, any prohibition of "To" should be accompanied by a > wording such as: > (reserved for the ihave/sendme protocol described in [USEPRO], and > for test articles sent on an essentially point-to-point basis). > I found those words in the old draft-13. Why-oh-why are we spending so > much time and effort on rediscovering wheels which were invented years > ago in our earlier drafts? Because what we had years ago in our earlier drafts was not publishable. There is no magic pixie dust in the above wording that makes me happy with calling to.* newsgroups a format issue. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGfLuY037362 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HGfL71037361 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HGfKv4037335 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:41:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5HGfJ3U002157 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:41:19 -0700 Received: (qmail 6835 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2005 16:41:19 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:26:08 GMT") References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:41:19 -0700 Message-ID: <873brhrl5c.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > The standard is meant to apply to both. But there is no reason why it > should not make more stringent rules for the publicly available Usenet > than for private use. You keep using this word "private." I do not think this word means what you think it means. People use the same software and the same protocol for both world-wide public groups, regionally limited groups, groups hosted by a single server, or groups internal to (often large) organizations or ISPs. The protocol description should be the same for all of them, since it is the same protocol and the same interoperability concerns apply. If you want to draw distinctions about best practices, that's what USEAGE is for. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8eqN075528 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8eix075527 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8d7U075474 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6c3.163.1b8 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:23 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtYl11774 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21350 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <II87GG.81u@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <56F1BBE49C633BB0655C3AE3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:19:28 GMT Lines: 65 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <56F1BBE49C633BB0655C3AE3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 15. juni 2005 13:54 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >>> use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in >>> Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control >>> messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. >>> However, such names MUST be accepted by >>> relaying and serving agents. >> >> I think I would say "reserved for private arrangements between serving >> agents and the reading agents which they serve". >> >> Or it could say "reserved for read-only newsgroups, made available by >> each serving agent to those reading agents which it serves". >I don't think we have a consensus that this is the only possible scope for >these characters - I could be wrong. >The principle of the thing is: Either we limit them to private use (in >which case we should say NOTHING about how they are used), or we limit them >to a specific purpose (in which case we need text describing that purpose >in enough detail to make sure we understand it). OK, I think we can satisfy both viewpoints with a little care. But first some terminology: Son-of-1036 (and also our earlier drafts) defined the term "cooperating subnet", which is envisioned as a complete bunch of injectors, relayers, servers and the lot. So a "private arrangement" just between a serving agent and its community of clients hardly amounts to a "cooperating subnet". I.e. "cooperating subnets" is a subset of "private arrangements". So you say that "[some list of things, such as control.*, junk, single-component names and components starting with "+" or "-"] are reserved for private use (for example read-only newsgroups, made available by a serving agent to those reading agents which it serves)." >> And I think they should not be accepted by relaying agents etc. So it >> should then say >> "hence they MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers, >> though they MAY appear in Xref headers". >Relaying agents within or outside the private-agreement area? And then you say "hence [same list of things] MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers (except in cooperating subnets), though they MAY appear in Xref headers". Exactly which of the forbidden things are included in that list is a separate discussion. See also separate discussion between Russ and Henry as to whether "cooperating subnets" are a useful concept to mention. I agree with Henry on this one. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8d8N075502 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8dUK075495 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8ab7075424 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6bf.163.1b4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:19 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtal11788 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:36 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21352 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II87zF.871@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:30:51 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> The words "semantically invisible" are used at several places >> in RFC 2822. >Found it, the other places are backslashes in quoted-pairs, and >ignoring these "invisible" characters in a msg-id-list is a bad >plan for the References construction and trimming algorithm. No, look at our current syntax for <msg-id>. There is not a <quoted-pair> in sight. All you have is <mqspecial> and nobody has ever said that anything in an <mqspecial> is "invisible". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8deU075500 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8cfc075487 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8ac3075428 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6c1.163.1b6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:21 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtZB11784 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21351 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <II87rL.84H@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:26:08 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >If this standard, even the protocol pieces (!), is only intended to be >applicable to the world-wide public Usenet and not any private server or >other use of the protocols, we're all wasting our time. A substantial >portion of the use of the Usenet protocols is outside the publically >distributed hierarchies, and those uses are frequently the most >interesting to support. They have the same interoperability requirements >and need for a solid protocol as the public use of the Usenet article >format. The standard is meant to apply to both. But there is no reason why it should not make more stringent rules for the publicly available Usenet than for private use. So you could quite well say that "single-component newsgroups" (and maybe various other things) MUST NOT appear {on the public Usenet} except in prior agreement in cooperating subnets. >This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. No, I agree with Henry on this one. >If you want to limit USEAGE to just the public Usenet, ... Again, USEAGE applies to both, but it may be useful to distinguish Best Practice on Usenet from what might be acceptable elsewhere. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8d9B075503 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8dq2075496 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8bEV075439 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6c2.163.1b7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:22 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtdj11804 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:39 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21354 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <II8D5F.8r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:22:27 GMT Lines: 62 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: > >>> we also agreed to add something along the line of STD 11: >>>| Note: THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. > >> I think we already inherit that advice from RFC 2822 (along >> with the RECOMMENDATION to use domains). >No, we would inherit the erroneous contrary, 2822 says: >| a good method is to put the domain name (or a domain literal >| IP address) of the host on which the message identifier was >| created on the right hand side of the "@" 2822 says more than that. A little further down: .... Though other algorithms will work, it is RECOMMENDED that the right hand side contain some domain identifier (either of the host itself or otherwise) such that the generator of the message identifier can guarantee the uniqueness of the left hand side within the scope of that domain. >Domain literal is _not_ a good method. RfC 2822 also doesn't >discourage domain literals generally like STD 11. We have to >fix it by a clear SHOULD NOT as in STD 11. Hold on! We never agreed that domain literals were a Bad Thing to use in an <id-right>. What we DID agree was that such literals had better be an IP address in some accepted notation (which is hinted at, but not made absolutely clear, by some wording in RFC 2822 in connection with <addr=spec>s, where it says "In the domain-literal form, the domain is interpreted as the literal Internet address of the particular host"). So what we wrote (and it is now in USEFOR-04) was: NOTE: It is RECOMMENDED in [RFC2822] that, for ensuring global uniqueness, the <id-right> be some domain identifier within whose scope the uniqueness of the <id-left> can be guaranteed. When following this recommendation, any <dot-atom-text> or <no-fold- literal> used for the <id-right> are to be interpreted as <domain>s as described in Section 3.4.1 of [RFC2822]. Now you might make that clearer by changing the last sentence: Hence, when following this recommendation, any <no-fold-literal> used for the <id-right> should be of the form of an Internet address, in accordance with Section 3.4.1 of [RFC2822]. That would be fine by me if Harald and Ken are agreeable. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8d4S075499 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8crY075483 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8a1N075426 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6c0.163.1b5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:20 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtei11809 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:40 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21355 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II8DHt.8tp@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> <873bridzk0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:29:53 GMT Lines: 31 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <873bridzk0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >In other words, I'm looking at the distinction between the ABNF for a >newsgroup name, which has to allow such things as junk or to.* or >control.* and which is used for the Newsgroups header, the Xref header, >and so on, and the rules about what newsgroups you should use for what >purpose. The latter feels very strongly like a USEPRO issue to me. Except that several people have expressed a strong preference for keeping all restrictions of this nature at one place, in USEFOR. But, of course, any prohibition of "To" should be accompanied by a wording such as: (reserved for the ihave/sendme protocol described in [USEPRO], and for test articles sent on an essentially point-to-point basis). I found those words in the old draft-13. Why-oh-why are we spending so much time and effort on rediscovering wheels which were invented years ago in our earlier drafts? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8dP6075501 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HE8cIG075485 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HE8aOQ075423 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-72.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.72]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b2d6bf.163.1b3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:57:19 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5HDtcb11792 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:55:38 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21353 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II888M.89G@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506161442550.28570@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:36:22 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506161442550.28570@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >"Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >> I want USEFOR to use the term "header body" for the syntactic object, >There are two parts to a message: the header and the (optional) body. No, not in USEFOR as currently written. There is a discussion in progress as to whether to change USEFOR to adhere strictly to the RFC 2822 terminology, and if that change is made then the "header body" that I have asked for will become "header field body". But that change has not yet been agreed, and hence I am continuing to use the present terminology. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HA85ux094091 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5HA5OrF091507 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5HA5GbH091365 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA44561B03; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06677-05; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3804A61B01; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:05:11 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Semantic & Header content (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <A3374E52715B4AA15C977EA8@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 16, 2005 12:11:50 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > am not sure yet whether that bit is needed in USEPRO. I need to go > through and see all the places where "content" is used. When I have done > that, I may be able to simplify that definition. > >>> [That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be >>> redefined as "header body".] > >> I'm on the brink to join Bruce's "hacker slang" camp if we now >> get different terms for the same "structured header field body" >> depending on the draft in question. > > I want USEFOR to use the term "header body" for the syntactic object, > before any unfolding or other semantic simplifications. I have looked at > all the places where USEFOR currently used "header content", and in every > case it is the syntactic, not the semantic, object that is meant. The term "header content" (RFC 2822 "field body") is used in 3 places in USEFOR, all of which are in this paragraph: > o All agents MUST generate headers so that at least one space > immediately follows the ':' separating the header name and the > header contents (for compatibility with deployed software). News > agents MAY accept headers which do not contain the required space. > > o The header contents of every header line (including the first and > any that are subsequently folded) MUST contain at least one non- > whitespace character. > > NOTE: This means that no header content defined by or > referenced by this document can be empty. As a result, this > document updates the <unstructured> construct from Section > 3.2.6 of [RFC2822] as follows: > > unstructured = 1*( [FWS] utext ) [FWS] The first instance seems to say that the space after the colon is not considered part of the header content. The second one is formally wrong (you can't have "header content" of a "header line", since "header content" means the whole header field's content). The third one implicitly uses "empty" in the sense of "something that is not whitespace". That's not clear either. Since this paragraph needs some rework anyway to be totally self-consistent, perhaps we should free up "content" for what Charles wants, and define as follows: "field body" (as in RFC 2822) - the characters after the colon up to the end of the header field; we don't need to define this, since 2822 does. The only place we need that is probably the paragraph above. "header field content" ("content" for short) - the stuff inside the header that is not leading or trailing whitespace, is not a comment, and is not the CRLF between header lines (we can surely make up better text for this!) Does that make sense? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5H7Dn6U088155 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5H7DndP088154 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5H7DlrI088078 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:59908 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1DjB2t-0001WD-UK for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:13:44 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DjB2p-0003ny-86 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:13:39 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 17 Jun 2005 09:06:01 +0200 Date: 17 Jun 2005 08:58:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9Z0Kv5cHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> harald@alvestrand.no (Harald Tveit Alvestrand) wrote on 13.06.05 in <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126>: > In the Beginning Of Time, certain email systems ran on IBM mainframes, and > stored email in record-oriented files, one record per line, which had a > hard limit of 80 characters per line (think punch-card hard). > I believe (hope!) that all these systems are now dead. Well, the filesystems on which these files are stored insist on records - there is no non-record-oriented format. The best you could do is variable length format, and IIRC you still need a max length ... And while I don't know about CMS or TSO or similar mainframe systems, the AS/400 is alive and well and has a very similar filesystem (actually, it seems to be something like a thin layer above a SQL database), and I'm pretty certain there are people doing mail on it. When doing my small bit of C programming on that machine, I certainly need to cope with fixed-80 format for C source. And yes, that's all EBCDIC. > A number of email readers ran by dumping their output on 80-character > terminals, some of which had an irritating bug where, if you sent it 80 80 character screens certainly still exist. > characters and a CRLF, the cursor would move 2 lines down, not one - making > column 80 "dangerous territory". Curses fortunately can handle that. However, I'm not at all sure I'd agree to calling that a bug - it's pretty natural behaviour if you automatically wrap the line at the end. You actually need to do unnatural stuff to avoid that. > I hope these terminals are now disposed of in an environmentally friendly > fashion, and no longer interesting. I certainly doubt that, too. But see the comment about curses - the *problem* ought to be gone, even if the terminals aren't. The one annoying problem left is that these terminals usually cannot write into the lower right corner (because doing so causes immediate scrolling). Sometimes, this can be done with a trick (using horizontal or vertical insertion, if that capability is available). MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5H7DnjI088153 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5H7DmPD088151 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5H7Dll0088080 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:59909 helo=khms.westfalen.de) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1DjB2u-0001WE-2j for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:13:44 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DjB2p-0003ny-Dw for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:13:39 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 17 Jun 2005 09:06:01 +0200 Date: 17 Jun 2005 09:05:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9Z0KvMB1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com (Alexey Melnikov) wrote on 15.06.05 in <42AF6746.10309@isode.com>: > One issue I should have raised earlier is about X-Mailer. X-Mailer is > supported by majority of mail clients and is a de-facto standard for > email. Many of those mail clients are also news clients. So I think it > is too late (and even harmful) to deprecate X-Mailer. I don't see why. (And I'm not even sure I believe that! User-Agent is certainly not an invention of this WG; it's copied from HTTP, and I expect (didn't look) that Mozilla and derived software (Thunderbird, for example) already support *that*.) MfG Kai Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GM4lPB058817 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GM4lKq058816 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GM4kBr058663 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5GM4djf073261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:04:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506161442550.28570@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > I want USEFOR to use the term "header body" for the syntactic object, There are two parts to a message: the header and the (optional) body. The header consists of header fields. A header field consists of a field name and a field body. That's what RFC2822 tells us. And that part of RFC2822 is hardly email specific. "Header body" is joining two terms that are at the same level of definition for two different parts of a message, and hoping that the reader guesses it means something related to only one specific line in one specific part of a message. "Header field body" is the term for the contents of the header field that are not the field name or separator. When we initialize an inherited header field in an outgoing message, we want to copy the header field body, typically, of the parent. We don't need a new term for it. If you want to keep comments out of References header field bodies, define them without comments. End of problem. And, by the way, this discussion is proof that discussing USEFOR and USEPRO separately will not work: here's a definition that is supposed to go into USEFOR so USEPRO can use something other than RFC2822-defined terms. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GLQfXT016627 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GLQfQY016604 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GLQc2c016469 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E743761B61; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:26:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23764-01; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2712961B58; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:26:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:26:33 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <16724DD55DE777259A5E4235@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42B1DF90.6DB5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050616130316.27162A-100000@spsystems.net> <42B1DF90.6DB5@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 16, 2005 22:22:40 +0200 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: > Henry Spencer wrote: > >>> This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. > >> No, it remains important. We want the standard to be as >> broadly applicable as we can, but that doesn't mean we have >> to bless every stupidity that's in existing use anywhere > > If the USEFOR memo says "UAs MUST NOT use single component > names", then a conforming UA cannot post in the spamcop NG, > it cannot use Followup-To: spamcop in other spamcop.* NGs. > > That's wrong. Such a "conforming" UA would be broken for a > trivial practical task, by an arbitrary restriction. > > Of course I prefer a structure with NGs at the leaves of a > tree, just beause that's as it always was. But if it also > works with NGs at the nodes, and obviously that's the case, > why try to forbid it on a _syntactical_ level ? > > And if I had to choose between "Usenet" vs. GMaNe for some > strange reason I'd pick GMaNe. I want standards allowing > UA, server, and gateway implementors to get it right. Bye. You seem to be making a convincing argument that the single-component restriction should be pushed all the way over to USEAGE..... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GKixIm069179 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GKixAi069178 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GKiwom069166 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dj18q-0001nO-UQ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:39:12 +0200 Received: from du-042-179.access.de.clara.net ([213.221.65.179]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:39:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-042-179.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:39:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:42:45 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42B1E445.5B93@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-042-179.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> we also agreed to add something along the line of STD 11: >>| Note: THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. > I think we already inherit that advice from RFC 2822 (along > with the RECOMMENDATION to use domains). No, we would inherit the erroneous contrary, 2822 says: | a good method is to put the domain name (or a domain literal | IP address) of the host on which the message identifier was | created on the right hand side of the "@" Domain literal is _not_ a good method. RfC 2822 also doesn't discourage domain literals generally like STD 11. We have to fix it by a clear SHOULD NOT as in STD 11. Section 3.6.4 in 2822 is not good enough for NetNews or other serious applications of Message-IDs like mailing list archives. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GKPQnZ046942 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GKPQUR046936 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GKPPAq046897 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dj0pK-0006k8-C6 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:19:02 +0200 Received: from du-042-179.access.de.clara.net ([213.221.65.179]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:19:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-042-179.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:19:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:22:40 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 24 Message-ID: <42B1DF90.6DB5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050616130316.27162A-100000@spsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-042-179.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: >> This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. > No, it remains important. We want the standard to be as > broadly applicable as we can, but that doesn't mean we have > to bless every stupidity that's in existing use anywhere If the USEFOR memo says "UAs MUST NOT use single component names", then a conforming UA cannot post in the spamcop NG, it cannot use Followup-To: spamcop in other spamcop.* NGs. That's wrong. Such a "conforming" UA would be broken for a trivial practical task, by an arbitrary restriction. Of course I prefer a structure with NGs at the leaves of a tree, just beause that's as it always was. But if it also works with NGs at the nodes, and obviously that's the case, why try to forbid it on a _syntactical_ level ? And if I had to choose between "Usenet" vs. GMaNe for some strange reason I'd pick GMaNe. I want standards allowing UA, server, and gateway implementors to get it right. Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GJxMev018600 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GJxMQK018599 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:59:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GJxKlY018536 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dj0Qa-0002KA-NB for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:53:28 +0200 Received: from du-042-179.access.de.clara.net ([213.221.65.179]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:53:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-042-179.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:53:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:55:25 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 22 Message-ID: <42B1D92D.3D7B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-042-179.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > The words "semantically invisible" are used at several places > in RFC 2822. Found it, the other places are backslashes in quoted-pairs, and ignoring these "invisible" characters in a msg-id-list is a bad plan for the References construction and trimming algorithm. [2047 decoding] > I am not sure yet whether that bit is needed in USEPRO. I > need to go through and see all the places where "content" is > used. When I have done that, I may be able to simplify that > definition. Better stay away from "semantical content" for the References, otherwise you'd first remove the backslashes and later reinsert them. With Murphy the output differs from the input, and we're not very interested to fix a non-canonical msg-id in this case. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GHP0go044735 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GHP0cm044734 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GHOxNY044728 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5GHOv37004429 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:24:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 30582 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Jun 2005 17:24:57 -0000 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050616130316.27162A-100000@spsystems.net> (Henry Spencer's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT)") References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050616130316.27162A-100000@spsystems.net> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:24:57 -0700 Message-ID: <87psumb4eu.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: >> This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. > No, it remains important. We want the standard to be as broadly > applicable as we can, but that doesn't mean we have to bless every > stupidity that's in existing use anywhere, just because some moron once > thought it was a good idea. Mail manages to avoid doing that while not introducing this cooperating subnet concept. It's not a crime to be noncompliant with our standard. We don't need to write in an escape clause that says that you're allowed to be noncompliant if you talk to everyone in advance; that's just common sense. The IETF has no enforcement powers. And in the meantime, this cooperating subnet concept is constantly used within the WG to excuse some ignoring a huge percentage of netnews deployments and argue for limiting the scope of our work to the point where there would be no purpose served in continuing. > It's perfectly reasonable to say "using a one-component newsgroup name > for spamcop was a dumb idea and we aren't going to endorse it, but doing > stupid things in private is okay so long as it stays private; if you get > a chance to do it over again, do it right next time". What part of the *protocol* does it break? I don't see any protocol reason why the general discussion group for Australia had to be aus.general instead of aus. It would have been less convenient to configure in particular news servers, INN included., but while the convenience argument may (or may not) be a good one at a BCP level, it's not a protocol argument. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GH8oft026076 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GH8oNB026075 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:08:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GH8l43026042 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5GH8aF1027279; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5GH8ak8027278; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050616130316.27162A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. No, it remains important. We want the standard to be as broadly applicable as we can, but that doesn't mean we have to bless every stupidity that's in existing use anywhere, just because some moron once thought it was a good idea. It's perfectly reasonable to say "using a one-component newsgroup name for spamcop was a dumb idea and we aren't going to endorse it, but doing stupid things in private is okay so long as it stays private; if you get a chance to do it over again, do it right next time". Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGke6F003708 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGkeA4003707 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGkeGm003701 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5GGkdJp008811 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:46:39 -0700 Received: (qmail 28803 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Jun 2005 16:46:39 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:01:13 GMT") References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: <87y89ackr4.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >> That's not about my UA using a "Followup-To: spamcop", right ? I've no >> "private arrangements" with news.spamcop.net, it's an ordinary public >> news server, but not a part of Usenet. > If spamcop is not a part of Usenet, then it is a cooperating subnet and > it can do whatever it pleases. If this standard, even the protocol pieces (!), is only intended to be applicable to the world-wide public Usenet and not any private server or other use of the protocols, we're all wasting our time. A substantial portion of the use of the Usenet protocols is outside the publically distributed hierarchies, and those uses are frequently the most interesting to support. They have the same interoperability requirements and need for a solid protocol as the public use of the Usenet article format. This cooperating subnet nonsense really has to go. If you want to limit USEAGE to just the public Usenet, I don't really care. I've pretty much given up on USEAGE as a lost cause already. But please leave the protocol alone. It applies to all use of netnews, not just publically distributed hierarchies. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGfbW2099714 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGfaDk099713 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGfaY8099695 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5GGfZBq006933 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:41:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 28592 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Jun 2005 16:41:35 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:05:10 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: <873bridzk0.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> The distinction that I'm making here is between the syntactic >> definition of a newsgroup name that can be broadly applied in all >> contexts and the protocol use of a newsgroup name where particular >> newsgroups are reserved in some contexts but not others. The latter >> cannot be explained without reference to the news protocol, and >> therefore is to me clearly a protocol issue. > Ah! You are saying that "ctl" and "all" MUST NEVER EVER appear, but "To" > is different because it MAY appear if you are running a UUCP feed with > the old IHAVE messages. I still think the distinction is somewhat > artificial when it comes to deciding where to deprecate/discourage these > things, though the exact wording used must be chosen with care. I'm saying that "all" and "ctl" are not permissable anywhere, whereas "to.*" (for example) is a perfectly valid thing to put into the Newsgroups header (and in fact has to be allowed in the Newsgroups header to work at all), just not a valid target for control messages and some other purposes. (And I don't think the control message restriction should be handled in the description of the syntax of the control header; that's really just the wrong place for such things, IMO.) In other words, I'm looking at the distinction between the ABNF for a newsgroup name, which has to allow such things as junk or to.* or control.* and which is used for the Newsgroups header, the Xref header, and so on, and the rules about what newsgroups you should use for what purpose. The latter feels very strongly like a USEPRO issue to me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSLTC085880 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGSLAe085879 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSK38085833 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-51.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.51]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b1a5be.1482d.2097 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:15:58 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5GGCUB27897 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:12:30 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21335 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II6E4n.JuH@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <WZsmwEbvbJsCFAQj@highwayman.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:48:23 GMT Lines: 104 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <WZsmwEbvbJsCFAQj@highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >In message <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>OK, but before doing that I want to redefine the term "header content", >>within USEPRO as follows: >> >> The "semantic content" (often abbreviated to just "content") of a >> structured header is its semantic interpretation (cf. use of that >> term in [RFC 2822]); i.e. after unfolding it, ignoring comments and >> other semantically invisible items, replacing white space by a single >> SP, and after decoding and/or recombining any <encoded-word>s or >> <extended-parameter>s [RFC 2231]. >>[That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be redefined as >>"header body".] >> >>With that, I can tidy up a whole bunch of places where USEPRO currently >>uses the term "content". >Accepting that a word for "the meat of what's really there" is useful; >then it's a shame that it isn't a word that resembles the RFC2822 "field >body" terminology; What we actually call the new term can be adjusted when Harald has ruled on that matter. But keeping "content" in it somewhere seems to agree with some existing usage of that term. > but I've no immediate suggestions that are any better >than "semantic content" .... though I really don't think you need to >explicitly appeal to 2822 for the meaning of "semantic" :) Well RFC 2822 uses "semantic in many places, and I was just trying to show my credentials :-) . In fact, the precise wording of that definition is probably an overkill. E.g. the RFC 2231 stuff is not necessary for applying it to the References header, but until I have gone through the whole of USEPRO examining existing use of "content", I cannot be sure. >>So, let us start with References headers: >OK so far >>That gives you carte blanche to refold the new header, to retain or remove >>the old comments, and even to insert new ones. >OK, but surely I don't need permission to fold anything, I just can. The old version told you to take syntactic objects, such as the header body (aka header field body, if you must) of an existing References header, and simply to concatenate them. That buys you whatever folding and comments were already built into those objects. So, legally speaking, you were obliged to retain them. Yes, that law was "a ass"; which is why I want to change it. >>>If the total length of the resulting References header field ..... >> >>No, you have omitted the bit about it being a limit on the unfolded length >erm... the header field _is_ the unfolded form :) No, "header field" as defined in RFC 2822 is the syntactic object as it appears on the wire - folds and all. >> If the total length of the resulting References header after >> unfolding (including its header name but not the final CRLF) exceeds >> 998 characters, it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). >this wording is backwards :( You've just created the new References >header, so why would you have even thought about folding it yet ? No, I have just created a References header whose *semantic*content* contains all the right msg-ids. Who knows whether it is folded or not? Now I want to say that you had better check that it would be less than 998 if you were to unfold it (because some poorly designed implementation might try to unfold it and process it further in a 998 buffer). Note that there is a general permission in USEPRO that you don't have to do things in the order stated, so long as the effects achieved are indistinguishable. So a sensible implementor will probably do his counting before folding, and indeed before attempting the concatenation. >.... So what the specification should explain is what the >measurement rule is... Yes. That is what I was trying to do: "do a test unfold, and see if it is too long". Here is another attempt: If the resulting References header would, after unfolding, exceed 998 characters in length (including its header name but not the final CRLF), it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). Trimming involves removing any number of message identifiers from its content, except that the first message identifier and the last two MUST NOT be removed. Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSLGg085856 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGSLPD085855 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSJ0C085800 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-51.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.51]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b1a5bc.1482d.2095 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:15:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5GGCXS27910 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:12:33 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21338 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II6EwM.K1v@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:05:10 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >The distinction that I'm making here is between the syntactic definition >of a newsgroup name that can be broadly applied in all contexts and the >protocol use of a newsgroup name where particular newsgroups are reserved >in some contexts but not others. The latter cannot be explained without >reference to the news protocol, and therefore is to me clearly a protocol >issue. Ah! You are saying that "ctl" and "all" MUST NEVER EVER appear, but "To" is different because it MAY appear if you are running a UUCP feed with the old IHAVE messages. I still think the distinction is somewhat artificial when it comes to deciding where to deprecate/discourage these things, though the exact wording used must be chosen with care. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSLlk085872 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGSLMg085871 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSJi3085809 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-51.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.51]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b1a5bd.1482d.2096 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:15:57 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5GGCYi27914 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:12:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21339 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II6F7q.K4G@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:11:50 GMT Lines: 47 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >>| The "semantic content" (often abbreviated to just "content") >>| of a structured header is its semantic interpretation (cf. >>| use of that term in [RFC 2822]); i.e. after unfolding it, >>| ignoring comments and other semantically invisible items, >>| replacing white space by a single SP >What else is "invisible" except from replacing as much FWS as >possible by a single SP ? The words "semantically invisible" are used at several places in RFC 2822. >>| and after decoding and/or recombining any <encoded-word>s >>| or <extended-parameter>s [RFC 2231]. >Argh... the beauty of MIME is that this decoding is normally >unnecessary, and especially in-transit it's _never_ necessary. I am not sure yet whether that bit is needed in USEPRO. I need to go through and see all the places where "content" is used. When I have done that, I may be able to simplify that definition. >> [That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be >> redefined as "header body".] >I'm on the brink to join Bruce's "hacker slang" camp if we now >get different terms for the same "structured header field body" >depending on the draft in question. I want USEFOR to use the term "header body" for the syntactic object, before any unfolding or other semantic simplifications. I have looked at all the places where USEFOR currently used "header content", and in every case it is the syntactic, not the semantic, object that is meant. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSKCL085835 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGSKts085832 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSJBT085774 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-51.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.51]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b1a5bc.1482d.2094 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:15:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5GGCWG27906 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:12:32 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21337 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <II6Eq1.Jzo@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:01:13 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >That's not about my UA using a "Followup-To: spamcop", right ? >I've no "private arrangements" with news.spamcop.net, it's an >ordinary public news server, but not a part of Usenet. If spamcop is not a part of Usenet, then it is a cooperating subnet and it can do whatever it pleases. But are you sure that it has not leaked out onto usenet? There is nothing to stop other servers from taking it and propagating it. I still think it better to say that single-component groups are a Bad Thing on Usenet. But it is one of my 'category 2' things. It is stupid, but nothing breaks. So if the category 2 stuff is included in USEFOR (as people seem to want), then a weaker form of words can be used against it. In any case, USEPRO will discourage/deprecate newgroup messages for it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSK9a085817 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GGSKpH085816 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GGSH11085729 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-51.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.51]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b1a5bb.1482d.2093 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:15:55 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5GGCV527902 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:12:31 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21336 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <II6EBv.Jws@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:52:43 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >IIRC we also agreed to add something along the line of STD 11: >| Note: THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. I think we already inherit that advice from RFC 2822 (along with the RECOMMENDATION to use domains). But I would have no problem with repeating the advice in USEFOR (but some people are dead set against repeating _anything_ from RFC 2822 - not that I am against it if if it helps make thing clearer). I think it's up to Harald now. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GDJixY071076 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5GDJiTl071062 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:19:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5GDJgPg071011 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBD561B58; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:19:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17281-07; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:19:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0EE61B61; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:19:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:12:36 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <56F1BBE49C633BB0655C3AE3@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 15. juni 2005 13:54 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in >> Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control >> messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. >> However, such names MUST be accepted by >> relaying and serving agents. > > I think I would say "reserved for private arrangements between serving > agents and the reading agents which they serve". > > Or it could say "reserved for read-only newsgroups, made available by > each serving agent to those reading agents which it serves". I don't think we have a consensus that this is the only possible scope for these characters - I could be wrong. The principle of the thing is: Either we limit them to private use (in which case we should say NOTHING about how they are used), or we limit them to a specific purpose (in which case we need text describing that purpose in enough detail to make sure we understand it). I'd prefer to say nothing. > And I think they should not be accepted by relaying agents etc. So it > should then say > "hence they MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers, > though they MAY appear in Xref headers". Relaying agents within or outside the private-agreement area? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FL282P079081 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FL28lk079080 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FL2772079057 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Dif1S-0007Oj-FI; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:02:06 +0000 Message-ID: <WZsmwEbvbJsCFAQj@highwayman.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:00:31 +0100 To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <nF8$+DyL77vrOOKL7uU+dOahSe> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>The field body for the new article's References header field MUST be >>constructed as follows. The field body from the parent's References >>header field (if any) is placed first followed by CFWS. The field body >>is completed by adding the field body from the Message-ID header field >>of the parent. Any comments that are present within the field body MAY >>be removed. > >OK, but before doing that I want to redefine the term "header content", >within USEPRO as follows: > > The "semantic content" (often abbreviated to just "content") of a > structured header is its semantic interpretation (cf. use of that > term in [RFC 2822]); i.e. after unfolding it, ignoring comments and > other semantically invisible items, replacing white space by a single > SP, and after decoding and/or recombining any <encoded-word>s or > <extended-parameter>s [RFC 2231]. >[That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be redefined as >"header body".] > >With that, I can tidy up a whole bunch of places where USEPRO currently >uses the term "content". Accepting that a word for "the meat of what's really there" is useful; then it's a shame that it isn't a word that resembles the RFC2822 "field body" terminology; but I've no immediate suggestions that are any better than "semantic content" .... though I really don't think you need to explicitly appeal to 2822 for the meaning of "semantic" :) >So, let us start with References headers: > > The (semantic) content of the new article's References header > consists of the content of the Message-ID header of the parent > preceded, if the parent had a References header, by the content of > that References header and a SP (subject to trimming as described > below). OK so far >That gives you carte blanche to refold the new header, to retain or remove >the old comments, and even to insert new ones. OK, but surely I don't need permission to fold anything, I just can. >>> If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if >>> its total length, whether folded or not, and including the header >>> name but not the final CRLF, exceeds 998 chacacters it MUST) then be >>> trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the last two message >>> identifiers always remain. > >>If the total length of the resulting References header field (which >>includes the 12 character header field name at the start, but not the >>terminating CRLF) exceeds 998 octets it MUST be trimmed and it MAY be >>trimmed at any length. Trimming involves the removal of any number of >>message identifiers from the field body except that the first and the >>last two message identifiers MUST NOT be removed. > >No, you have omitted the bit about it being a limit on the unfolded length erm... the header field _is_ the unfolded form :) >(because some broken agents out there try to do the whole thing in a >single 998 character buffer). > > If the total length of the resulting References header after > unfolding (including its header name but not the final CRLF) exceeds > 998 characters, it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). this wording is backwards :( You've just created the new References header, so why would you have even thought about folding it yet ? Any implementation is bound to measure it, trim it, and only then can it fold it as needed. So what the specification should explain is what the measurement rule is... You could just say that the "semantic content" mustn't exceed 986 but I suspect you don't mean that, you mean the total length including any comments (ugh!) but you don't want to include anything extra for when you fold it... As far as I can see that's just the "field body" plus 12 or in fact the header field (which includes the field name). > Trimming involves removing any number of message identifiers from its > content, except that the first message identifier and the last two > MUST NOT be removed. OK with content here - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQrCW75oAxkTY1oPiEQKQigCfbAmYGF+c37p5zQGLWoJ4P1pvTtcAnjy1 EE7h/HrNyzsxjleVy0TuVWHG =A5HD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FKxkht078609 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:59:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FKxkWv078608 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:59:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FKxh6H078600 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dietj-0000AF-19 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:54:07 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:54:07 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:54:07 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:57:24 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 47 Message-ID: <42B09634.579B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > I want to redefine the term "header content", within USEPRO > as follows: >| The "semantic content" (often abbreviated to just "content") >| of a structured header is its semantic interpretation (cf. >| use of that term in [RFC 2822]); i.e. after unfolding it, >| ignoring comments and other semantically invisible items, >| replacing white space by a single SP What else is "invisible" except from replacing as much FWS as possible by a single SP ? >| and after decoding and/or recombining any <encoded-word>s >| or <extended-parameter>s [RFC 2231]. Argh... the beauty of MIME is that this decoding is normally unnecessary, and especially in-transit it's _never_ necessary. > [That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be > redefined as "header body".] I'm on the brink to join Bruce's "hacker slang" camp if we now get different terms for the same "structured header field body" depending on the draft in question. >| The (semantic) content of the new article's References >| header consists of the content of the Message-ID header of >| the parent preceded, if the parent had a References header, >| by the content of that References header and a SP (subject >| to trimming as described below). A completely new terminology instead of simply saying "grab old msg-id-list, add SP and parent's msg-id, then trim it as described below" ? Of course you can replace CFWS by SP, but that's not a feature restricted to References, it's normal. > you have omitted the bit about it being a limit on the > unfolded length (because some broken agents out there try > to do the whole thing in a single 998 character buffer). In my case it was an injection-agent (= news server) telling me when I have to trim excessively long references manually. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FK5FKs065046 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FK5F9T065045 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FK5CQ0065036 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Die2w-0007Km-IQ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:59:34 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:59:34 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:59:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:03:03 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 18 Message-ID: <42B08977.74A8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > Frank has been flogging this for months, but appears to have > gathered no support. Now you did correct the broken msg-id syntax wrt to the weird NO-WS-CTL, you also corrected the missing leading and trailing dot issue. Yes, that took some months while we discussed what the msg-id actually _is_, analyzing different versions of domain-literal. IIRC we also agreed to add something along the line of STD 11: | Note: THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. One issue where I didn't gather support were the names of the productions. At the moment it appears to be a tie (2:2), bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FJk6vG060578 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FJk6bx060577 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FJk4mO060553 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Didjp-0003rh-Ma for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:39:49 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.188]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:39:49 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:39:49 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:43:44 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 9 Message-ID: <42B084F0.35B9@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-188.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > "hence they MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To > headers, though they MAY appear in Xref headers". That's not about my UA using a "Followup-To: spamcop", right ? I've no "private arrangements" with news.spamcop.net, it's an ordinary public news server, but not a part of Usenet. Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FID0GA033151 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FID05W033150 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FICxKL033144 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5FICxQZ023357 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:12:59 -0700 Received: (qmail 8057 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jun 2005 18:12:59 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion In-Reply-To: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:52:56 -0400") References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:12:59 -0700 Message-ID: <87zmtr5w0k.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > text suggestion from me: I like this a lot better. Deprecating X-* headers did feel a bit odd, and I think this will accomplish the same thing in practice. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI9Fdl031253 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FI9FvF031252 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI9Fgx031230 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5FI9ERw021980 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0700 Received: (qmail 7965 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jun 2005 18:09:14 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: INN implementation clarifications In-Reply-To: <200506151211.05834.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:05 -0400") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506151211.05834.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0700 Message-ID: <874qbz7ar9.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > Does INN treat numeric/hexadecimal/dotted path components as IP > addresses (e.g. comparing against the server's IP address(es) and/or > doing reverse DNS lookups), or are they treated purely as "names"? I.e > in the example above (ignoring ::45af:89 since we know there's a colon > issue), is "10.10.10.10" treated as an IP address? INN currently does no verification of path identities whatsoever. All path identities are used only as opaque tokens that are compared case-insensitively against the recorded path identity for peers to avoid sending them articles they already got. DNS is never used (and in fact anything at all related to DNS is carefully avoided in all core INN code, since DNS lookups can take minutes and INN is single-threaded). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI6tOp030625 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FI6t7g030624 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:06:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI6s5g030618 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5FI6rkZ021155 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:06:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 7876 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jun 2005 18:06:53 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:17:45 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:06:53 -0700 Message-ID: <87br677av6.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> The special things that happen with to.* are protocol things, not >> format things, and should be put into the protocol document; otherwise, >> the split that we're creating is rather meaningless. >> "ctl" and "all" *are* USEFOR things, ... > I don't follow the distinction you are trying to make here. They are all > things that can cause unexpected things to happen if you try to use them > in normal newsgroup names. It seems artificial to try to distinguish > between them. The distinction that I'm making here is between the syntactic definition of a newsgroup name that can be broadly applied in all contexts and the protocol use of a newsgroup name where particular newsgroups are reserved in some contexts but not others. The latter cannot be explained without reference to the news protocol, and therefore is to me clearly a protocol issue. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI5JLd030171 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FI5JrN030169 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FI5JCS030147 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:05:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5FI5H3N020500 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:05:18 -0700 Received: (qmail 7827 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jun 2005 18:05:17 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II4q0K.C4C@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:09:56 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II2u54.JL@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89c4y1o.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II4q0K.C4C@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:05:17 -0700 Message-ID: <87fyvj7axu.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >>> Indeed, but these are intended to be "Read Only" groups as far as >>> Usenet is concerned. So by all means use those URI in order to read >>> the groups, but don't expect to be able to POST to them. >> I am fairly certain this is not the case for spamcop. > Then it must be a "private arrengement". Why, because you peresonally think that single-level newsgroup names shouldn't be allowed? I see no reason to classify this as a "private arrangement" rather than a normal use of the news protocols. > Indeed - hence the 'category 2' I just suggested. But is there any > actual purpose in including "junk" in the Newsgroups header (apart from > Trolls just showing that they can do it). Why is this question even relevant? > For sure, the contents of "junk" will be entirely different on each > server, so it will hardly function as a normal group. On servers that don't use junk for rejected articles (the vast majority of them), the contents will likely be about as much the same as any other poorly propagating newsgroup. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUYeq008524 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUYDT008523 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUSlg008460 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b0543f.80c7.248 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:15:59 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCWo16756 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:32 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21319 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II4q0K.C4C@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II2u54.JL@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87y89c4y1o.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:09:56 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87y89c4y1o.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >>> There's IMHO nothing wrong (syntactically) with the news-URLs >>> <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> >>> <news://news.gmane.org/junk> >> Indeed, but these are intended to be "Read Only" groups as far as Usenet >> is concerned. So by all means use those URI in order to read the groups, >> but don't expect to be able to POST to them. >I am fairly certain this is not the case for spamcop. Then it must be a "private arrengement". I think it would have been better in that case if they had constructed a conventional 2-level hierarchy, but if it's there, then it's there. >> If it's a Read Only group, then its name MUST NOT appear in a Newsgroups >> header (thogh it MAY appear in an Xref header). >There are plenty of articles out there that have "junk" in the Newsgroups >header. I understand why you don't like the practice, but the fact of the >matter is that it doesn't break the protocol. => USEPRO or even USEAGE. Indeed - hence the 'category 2' I just suggested. But is there any actual purpose in including "junk" in the Newsgroups header (apart from Trolls just showing that they can do it). For sure, the contents of "junk" will be entirely different on each server, so it will hardly function as a normal group. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUVNl008511 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUVVI008509 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUUsU008490 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b05444.80c7.24a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:16:04 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCQV16738 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:26 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21315 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion Message-ID: <II4KLH.BGA@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:12:53 GMT Lines: 74 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> text suggestion from me: >> >> OLD (3.2.13): >> >> NOTE: This header supersedes the role performed redundantly by >> experimental headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- >> Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and other headers previously used on >> Usenet and in Email for this purpose. Use of these experimental >> headers SHOULD be discontinued in favor of the single, standard >> User-Agent header. >> >> NEW: >> >> NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in >> non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- >> Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. >> Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to >> send these non-standard headers. I think I prefer the original wording; or if not, something in between. What we are trying to bring about is that User-Agent will become the norm, and that usage of the others will fade away. If "SHOULD be discontinued" is considered to be too strong, then something like "it is intended/expected that ...", or "continued use of ... is discouraged". And the word "redundant(ly)" in the original could usefully be retained, as providing motivation for the intention/expectation/discouragement. >One issue I should have raised earlier is about X-Mailer. X-Mailer is >supported by majority of mail clients and is a de-facto standard for >email. Many of those mail clients are also news clients. So I think it >is too late (and even harmful) to deprecate X-Mailer. Again, I think the intent is that it will fade away (note that one could never standardize it in that form). More and more user agents are using User-Agent (though with some divergence as regards its exact syntax, which our draft should clarify). And when you say X-Mailer is "supported", surely what you mean is that it is "generated". I don't think much software actually looks at it, apart from ad hoc scripts, which are going to have to look at User-Agent as well. Indeed, the whole point of encouraging those old headers to fade away is that eventually the writers of ad hoc scripts will just need to look at User-Agent. >> OLD (3.2.14): >> >> This header is intended to replace various currently-used but >> undocumented headers such as "NNTP-Posting-Host", "X-Trace" and >> "X-Complaints-To". These headers are thus deprecated. >> >> NEW: >> >> NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in >> non-standardized headers such as NNTP-Posting-Host, X-trace, >> X-Complaints-To, and others. >> Once an injecting agent uses Injection-Info, it should have no >> need to >> send these non-standard headers. Same remarks as for User-Agent. I prefer the Old, and if not that then something a bit stronger than the New. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUVHD008510 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUVC2008508 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUUNx008491 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b05445.80c7.24b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:16:05 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCTj16747 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:29 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21317 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <II4pBG.Byv@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:54:52 GMT Lines: 134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >After checking all the mail on the #1021 thread, a suggestion... >Suggestion for a resolution in 3.1.5: >Let the ABNF be "rather liberal". In fact use the existing ABNF. >Let the text explain the various restrictions. Yes, I like that. >Alternatively, one could introduce the lowercase restriction using the >"obs-" convention, like this: No, leave it as it is, and let the verbiage do the talking. >And restrict them like this: > A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and > SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be > used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this > naming scheme. Some motivation would be helpful: (because of bad interactions with a widely deployed storage technique) (because some existing agents treat them case insensitievly) and perhaps ... to existing groups created prior to this standard. I shall make it clear in USEPRO that this rule is to be enforced in newgroup control messages. >The second part is the restriction (if any) on + - _. >I suggest (in order to be concrete; I'm not sure it's right): > Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by > future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by > posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. Actually, the "(whether in Newsgroups headers ...)" could be omitted without loss. Again, I will ensure that USEPRO keeps them out of control messages. As worded, it seems that injecting agents MAY/SHOULD/MUST reject them. Perhaps that last sentence is a USEPRO matter, and it needs simple "However, such names MUST be accepted by other agents" (modulo query about injecting agents). > Components beginning with "+" and "-" ("_") are reserved for private ^^^^^ Eh? > use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in > Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. > However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. I think I would say "reserved for private arrangements between serving agents and the reading agents which they serve". Or it could say "reserved for read-only newsgroups, made available by each serving agent to those reading agents which it serves". And I think they should not be accepted by relaying agents etc. So it should then say "hence they MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers, though they MAY appear in Xref headers". >Suggestions for modifications are in order.... >The third part is the restriction on component names. I've gathered the >following from the discussion (the below is a suggestion for text): >The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used as >the name of a newsgroup: > Groups starting with the component "example" > The group "poster" >The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in >various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used for >the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific >purpose, or by local agreement. > Groups with one component > Groups starting with "junk" ^ . > Groups starting with "to" ^ . > Groups containing the component "all" > Groups containing the component "ctl" > The group "control" > The group "junk" Add "Groups starting with "control." And I would omit groups of the form "junk.*" (they are mighty peculiar, but do not actually conflict). There seems to be some consensus that all these should be mentioned in USEFOR. However, they could be split into two categories: Ones that cause real harm: to.* *.all.* *.ctl.* poster and ones that are just plain stupid example.* junk control control.* Russ seems to want the second category to be relegated to USEFOR, but I think it is better to mention them all here, even if the prohibitions against them are somewhat milder. >NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a >protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. That applies particularly to the second category (but their existence is restricted to particular servers). Indeed, the treatment of the second category should be more like I have suggested for the "+" and "-" ones. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUUq0008493 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUUwR008492 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUSD7008467 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b05443.80c7.249 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:16:03 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCZg16765 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21321 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <II4qsJ.CA2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdg26wnj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II33Cv.4BE@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87d5qo1uyr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:26:43 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87d5qo1uyr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >I guarantee that software breaks if you fold the path header. Software >will break with anything other than host names separated by !. Now, we >may decide that we don't care about a lot of that software (such as ad-hoc >parsing scripts), and major news software should not break, but the Path >header format *in practice*, and therefore what much software has been >written to during this long interregnum without an effective Usenet >standard, is significantly more restrictive than what RFC 1036 says. It all the major news software does not break, then I could live with problems with a few ad hoc scripts. Two things are needed. 1. The folded Path header must propagate without bits of it getting lost. That is a problem for relaying and serving agents to get right. 2. When a relaying agent reads through the Path, to avoid sending an article where it has already been sent before, it must search the whole of the Path. That also is a problem for relaying and serving agents to get right. If existing relaying agents in fact satisy both of those, then there is no problem. Moreover, one can tolerate occasional failure of #2, because it causes nothing to break beyond a bit of redundant transmission. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUSWs008469 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUSLw008468 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGURsM008454 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b0543a.80c7.246 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:15:54 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCXV16761 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21320 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II4qDM.C74@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:17:45 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >The special things that happen with to.* are protocol things, not format >things, and should be put into the protocol document; otherwise, the split >that we're creating is rather meaningless. >"ctl" and "all" *are* USEFOR things, ... I don't follow the distinction you are trying to make here. They are all things that can cause unexpected things to happen if you try to use them in normal newsgroup names. It seems artificial to try to distinguish between them. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUT6i008482 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGUTVa008481 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUSBJ008459 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b0543e.80c7.247 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:15:58 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCVb16752 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:31 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21318 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <II4ppx.C1r@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87ll5c4xgb.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:03:33 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87ll5c4xgb.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >> And restrict them like this: >> A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and >> SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be >> used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this >> naming scheme. >I like this. I would add "A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT be the string >"all" or "ctl", for compatibility with older news software" or something >along those lines, since the all and ctl thing is historically a format >consideration, not a protocol consideration. But isn't that covered in Harald's list of forbidden things further down (though I would agree that some motivation should be given for each forbidden item)? And I am not sure the format/protocol distinction means much here. These things have been excluded from the format because they would cause the protocols to screw up in various ways. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGURij008456 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGURZY008455 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGUQ4o008448 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-64-192.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.64.192]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42b0543a.80c7.245 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:15:54 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5FGCRa16742 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:27 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21316 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <II4nAK.Bqp@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:11:08 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> I'm going to resolve the ticket as "just replace mqtext with >> *mqtext". >> OK? Fine with me. >There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's >in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. Frank has been flogging this for months, but appears to have gathered no support. RFC 2822 RECOMMENDS that a domain should be used as the <id-right>, and this is indeed good practice. But once the <id-right> has been generated, it is a domain no longer, but just a string of characters to be compared for equality, or copied (as into a References header). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGBH48003557 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FGBH4r003556 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FGBGxe003533 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841352991E; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5FGB8TW000651(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:08 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5FGB7Ni000650(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:07 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: INN implementation clarifications Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:05 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506151211.05834.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ, thanks for the clarifications. One more: On Thu June 9 2005 17:59, Russ Allbery wrote: > INN considers [a-zA-Z0-9._-] to be valid hostname characters in the Path > header and all other characters are treated as delimiters. So in other > words, the following path header: > > Path: f-oo.com% bar_bar.com*10.10.10.10![::45af:89]=not-for-mail > > is treated by INN as completely identical to: > > Path: f-oo.com!bar_bar.com!10.10.10.10!45af!89!not-for-mail Does INN treat numeric/hexadecimal/dotted path components as IP addresses (e.g. comparing against the server's IP address(es) and/or doing reverse DNS lookups), or are they treated purely as "names"? I.e in the example above (ignoring ::45af:89 since we know there's a colon issue), is "10.10.10.10" treated as an IP address? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FEbfZW089010 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FEbf26089009 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:37:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FEbdLN089003 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4E61B49; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:37:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25080-08; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:37:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9524361B01; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:37:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:35:46 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Tickets for USEPRO (Re: Ticket system mechanics) Message-ID: <57C89AE6B2563AC40BBDB43E@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <E8054BEAE3C634AB06783DCB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> <E8054BEAE3C634AB06783DCB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> After exchanging mail with Alexey on the subject, we have agreed that he'll take on the task of entering tickets for USEPRO, while I continue entering tickets for USEFOR. We'll continue to follow the <document> <section> naming, so all USEFOR tickets will start with USEFOR, while all USEPRO tickets will start with USEPRO. A request from the ticket enterer..... If you want to raise a new issue, and want to make sure it gets a ticket, please use a subject line saying something like NEW: USEPRO 3.14.159 Section numbering is irrational This will make the job of entering tickets easier..... Harald --On 13. juni 2005 17:14 -0400 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: >> Why are you not entering tickets for USEPRO? The point of a ticket >> system is to record issues so that work on them can occur at time other >> than when they are raised. Delaying they entry of tickets is completely >> wrong. > > Limited time on my hands. I have a hard time just keeping up with the > USEFOR issues. > More people entering tickets (and tracking followup on tickets) would > help, if we could avoid stumbling over each others' feet. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FCkhBM071112 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FCkhDx071111 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:46:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FCkfdV071090 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75D861B43; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:46:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23465-09; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:46:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A24F61B01; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:46:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:21:58 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Guaranteed MUSTard Message-ID: <43990EC154FAEAEDA4FFCC85@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <II3BLF.59y@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II11Js.Fqu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADD1D7.33D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II3BLF.59y@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 14. juni 2005 20:00 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > No, that is not the meaning of that SHOULD in RFC 2822. They say 'reply > messages SHOULD have "In-Reply-To:" and "References:' fields. I don't > think it ever occurred to them that someone might want to use References > in messages that were not replies. They do not forbid it, but they give no > guidance on how to do it. Ned was there at the time; he wrote the text about References in MIME message/partial. I don't think we should assume he had forgotten it by that time...... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FBXqX1045720 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FBXqQQ045719 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:33:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FBXq1w045707 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.159] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (internal) with ESMTPA; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:33:50 +0100 Message-ID: <42B0121E.8060905@isode.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:33:50 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> <43278F1FEFA2AEC73451B65A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <43278F1FEFA2AEC73451B65A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > --On 15. juni 2005 00:24 +0100 Alexey Melnikov > <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> wrote: > >>> NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in >>> non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, >>> X-Posting- >>> Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. >>> Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to >>> send these non-standard headers. >> >> One issue I should have raised earlier is about X-Mailer. X-Mailer is >> supported by majority of mail clients and is a de-facto standard for >> email. Many of those mail clients are also news clients. So I think >> it is >> too late (and even harmful) to deprecate X-Mailer. > > We can't standardize it (due to the X- rule; see John Klensin's appeal > on the LEMONADE MMS document on the IETF list for details). > So it's going to remain undefined with regard to format, handling > rules and so on. And messages without it are going to continue to be > acceptable, no matter what. > > So we've got 2 options: > > - Keep it on the list of "don't see why you'd continue to send it" > - Not mention it at all Considering the choices I would prefer not mentioning it. > I don't want to say anything that seems like *recommending* sending > > User-agent: foobar/1.2 > X-Mailer: foobar/1.2 > > That's just useless header bloat in my opinion. But just my opinion. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FBFKwR039514 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5FBFKev039512 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5FBFILv039497 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AE361B43; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:15:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22264-08; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDE061B58; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:15:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:13:11 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion Message-ID: <43278F1FEFA2AEC73451B65A@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 15. juni 2005 00:24 +0100 Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> wrote: >> NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in >> non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- >> Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. >> Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to >> send these non-standard headers. > > One issue I should have raised earlier is about X-Mailer. X-Mailer is > supported by majority of mail clients and is a de-facto standard for > email. Many of those mail clients are also news clients. So I think it is > too late (and even harmful) to deprecate X-Mailer. We can't standardize it (due to the X- rule; see John Klensin's appeal on the LEMONADE MMS document on the IETF list for details). So it's going to remain undefined with regard to format, handling rules and so on. And messages without it are going to continue to be acceptable, no matter what. So we've got 2 options: - Keep it on the list of "don't see why you'd continue to send it" - Not mention it at all I don't want to say anything that seems like *recommending* sending User-agent: foobar/1.2 X-Mailer: foobar/1.2 That's just useless header bloat in my opinion. But just my opinion. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5F9anwM006019 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5F9anm1006018 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5F9am7N006002 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com) Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([62.3.217.253]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (internal) with ESMTPA; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:36:31 +0100 Message-ID: <42AF6746.10309@isode.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:24:54 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Ticket text and comments so far: > >> From Frank Ellermann: >> >> Is deprecating X- headers allowed ? >> >> From Charles Lindsey, May 26: >> >>> Is deprecating X- headers allowed ? >> >> I don't see why not, if you are providing a standard header to fulfil >> the same role. > >> From Frank Ellermann: >> >> Examples could include "X-NoArchive: yes, (c) 2005 by xyzzy" >> or "X-ComplaintsTo: not me". The "same role" is unclear for >> X- header fields. >> >> Not an important point, but if it helps to avoid a warning >> from Bruce's review tool I'd just delete the last statement >> "These headers are thus deprecated." - the intended effect of >> the complainto-param is obvious without it. > > > text suggestion from me: > > OLD (3.2.13): > > NOTE: This header supersedes the role performed redundantly by > experimental headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- > Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and other headers previously used on > Usenet and in Email for this purpose. Use of these experimental > headers SHOULD be discontinued in favor of the single, standard > User-Agent header. > > NEW: > > NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in > non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- > Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. > Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to > send these non-standard headers. One issue I should have raised earlier is about X-Mailer. X-Mailer is supported by majority of mail clients and is a de-facto standard for email. Many of those mail clients are also news clients. So I think it is too late (and even harmful) to deprecate X-Mailer. > OLD (3.2.14): > > This header is intended to replace various currently-used but > undocumented headers such as "NNTP-Posting-Host", "X-Trace" and > "X-Complaints-To". These headers are thus deprecated. > > NEW: > > NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in > non-standardized headers such as NNTP-Posting-Host, X-trace, > X-Complaints-To, and others. > Once an injecting agent uses Injection-Info, it should have no > need to > send these non-standard headers. > > Makes sense? The rest looks good to me. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EMc6AW072219 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EMc6G9072218 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EMc6pT072205 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5EMbxlX092739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:37:59 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Guaranteed MUSTard Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506141531240.26644@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >And 4 - we MUST have them in followups; 2822 says SHOULD have them in >replies. USEFOR lists no such difference. The Chair has closed discussion of this, IIRC; nobody has yet shown an interoperability issue justifying RFC2119 language so putting in a MUST would be wrong, and thus there is no difference number 4. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ELb1Db066303 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ELb14C066302 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ELb19E066285 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5ELb0SN014416 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 24353 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2005 21:37:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) In-Reply-To: <II33Cv.4BE@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:55 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdg26wnj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II33Cv.4BE@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:00 -0700 Message-ID: <87d5qo1uyr.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> We haven't fixed that yet? Consider the same objections lodged as to >> folding Newsgroups, but with considerably more vehemence. Consider, >> for instance, the behavior of: >> Control: newgroup example.some.really.long.newsgroup.name >> moderated >> in different existing implementations. > We discussed this recently, and it was agreed AIUI to replace CFWS by > FWS in the Control header. It needs to be WS if you want to have a prayer of interoperating with existing software. Not even the latest development version of INN can cope with a folded Control header. > You may well be right about regular use, but certainly I have seen > folded Paths propagate in previous experiments, and I had always assumed > this was OK because it seems clear from RFC 1036 that the Path header > may be folded. I guarantee that software breaks if you fold the path header. Software will break with anything other than host names separated by !. Now, we may decide that we don't care about a lot of that software (such as ad-hoc parsing scripts), and major news software should not break, but the Path header format *in practice*, and therefore what much software has been written to during this long interregnum without an effective Usenet standard, is significantly more restrictive than what RFC 1036 says. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdaSG062047 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EKdabN062046 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdZHZ062036 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af3f2d.9a1.1597 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:33:49 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EKTg407072 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:42 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21295 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II36HH.4n2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <II0wIC.F05@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AD9EA2.1040107@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:10:29 GMT Lines: 48 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42AD9EA2.1040107@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >>>5. What should an implementor of a user Agent make of the 7.6 >>>language regarding the References header? What can that implementor >>>assume about articles created by agents that pre-date the draft? Or >>>is there a flag day? What can they assume about a multi-part FAQ? >> >> >> There is no need for any flag day. There is nothing that an implementor >> using the References header has to do in consequence of our draft that is >> in any way different from what he was doing beforehand. >> >These documents will obsolete previous standards. They must be a complete >specification, suitable for implementation of all software which processes >articles. Yes, and there _is_ a complete specification, because USEFOR tells you the syntax of the References header, and USEPRO tells you how to construct it. So long as implementors can assume it has been constructed in that way, implementors (of User Agents, in particular) can go ahead and use it in any way they see fit. The corresponding header in RFC 2822 was defined in much the same way, and implementors have managed to figure out how to use that one. Now I will grant you that what is said is minimal, and it is said in the wrong place. Will you join me in asking the Chair to raise a ticket to put some reasonable semantics back into USEFOR? >"Nothing....in any way different from what he was doing beforehand" >is not a specification, much less a complete specification. That sentence was not intended as a spedification. It was a simple statement of fact. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdaYq062055 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EKdaKm062054 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdZl0062040 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af3f2f.9a1.1599 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:33:51 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EKTib07078 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:44 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21296 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II3AMI.53n@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:39:54 GMT Lines: 113 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >In message <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>> It would be helpful to make that crystal clear. I can suggest some >>> words, if that's necessary.... >looks as if it might be :( >I've tried to use header field etc as they should be used, No, our Chair has not ruled on whether to make that change or not. Let us deal with one issue at once. >> If the parent did not have a References header, the content of the >> new article's References header MUST be inherited from that of the >> Message-ID header of the parent, otherwise (there already was a >> References header) it MUST be comprised of the parent's References >> header followed by CFWS and the Message-ID header content of the >> parent (subject to trimming as described below). >The field body for the new article's References header field MUST be >constructed as follows. The field body from the parent's References >header field (if any) is placed first followed by CFWS. The field body >is completed by adding the field body from the Message-ID header field >of the parent. Any comments that are present within the field body MAY >be removed. OK, but before doing that I want to redefine the term "header content", within USEPRO as follows: The "semantic content" (often abbreviated to just "content") of a structured header is its semantic interpretation (cf. use of that term in [RFC 2822]); i.e. after unfolding it, ignoring comments and other semantically invisible items, replacing white space by a single SP, and after decoding and/or recombining any <encoded-word>s or <extended-parameter>s [RFC 2231]. [That assumes that "header content" in USEFOR will be redefined as "header body".] With that, I can tidy up a whole bunch of places where USEPRO currently uses the term "content". So, let us start with References headers: The (semantic) content of the new article's References header consists of the content of the Message-ID header of the parent preceded, if the parent had a References header, by the content of that References header and a SP (subject to trimming as described below). That gives you carte blanche to refold the new header, to retain or remove the old comments, and even to insert new ones. >> If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if >> its total length, whether folded or not, and including the header >> name but not the final CRLF, exceeds 998 chacacters it MUST) then be >> trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the last two message >> identifiers always remain. >If the total length of the resulting References header field (which >includes the 12 character header field name at the start, but not the >terminating CRLF) exceeds 998 octets it MUST be trimmed and it MAY be >trimmed at any length. Trimming involves the removal of any number of >message identifiers from the field body except that the first and the >last two message identifiers MUST NOT be removed. No, you have omitted the bit about it being a limit on the unfolded length (because some broken agents out there try to do the whole thing in a single 998 character buffer). If the total length of the resulting References header after unfolding (including its header name but not the final CRLF) exceeds 998 characters, it MUST be trimmed (and otherwise it MAY be trimmed). Trimming involves removing any number of message identifiers from its content, except that the first message identifier and the last two MUST NOT be removed. OK, I expect all that still needs a little polishing. >>>>The essential property of the >>>> References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be >>>> preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever >>>> precede one of its own parents. >> >I would prefer it not to be said at all, except perhaps as a general >hand-waving comment Well, being in a NOTE, it was _meant_ to be hand waving ... > to say that the intent of the References header >field and the rules on trimming are to make it easy to assign articles >to the correct thread and to place them in an appropriate tree-like >structure provided that propagation is not too awful. Of course, we >would add, there may be mangling going on, so programs should take steps >not to be caught out by nonsense. And I would like to say all those things too, but in USEFOR. See my reply to Forrest, and let us see where that leads to. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdYsk062038 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EKdY6Q062037 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdXA0062020 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af3f2c.9a1.1596 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:33:48 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EKTfK07068 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:41 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21294 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <II33Cv.4BE@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdg26wnj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:55 GMT Lines: 43 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87hdg26wnj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> Control _can_ be folded (it has FWS in it). >We haven't fixed that yet? Consider the same objections lodged as to >folding Newsgroups, but with considerably more vehemence. Consider, for >instance, the behavior of: > Control: newgroup example.some.really.long.newsgroup.name > moderated >in different existing implementations. We discussed this recently, and it was agreed AIUI to replace CFWS by FWS in the Control header. >> I believe Paths are regularly folded in the Real Usenet. >I think you're confusing what was written into this draft years ago with >what actually happens out on the wire where no one is paying attention to >these drafts. :) >Since it happens to work with at least some major servers, a few people >may fold Path headers just for grins, but it is not in my experience an >event that could be described with the term "regularly." You may well be right about regular use, but certainly I have seen folded Paths propagate in previous experiments, and I had always assumed this was OK because it seems clear from RFC 1036 that the Path header may be folded. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdYSt062027 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EKdYRb062026 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKdWWV062019 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af3f2b.9a1.1595 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:33:47 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EKTj007084 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:45 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21297 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II3Ar2.55p@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <013f01c57059$602dc620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <200506132059.j5DKx0a10797@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:42:38 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506132059.j5DKx0a10797@panix5.panix.com> Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> writes: >"Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> wrote: >> >> I still can read that as if the first two and the last two message >> identifiers (so four) must remain. Ah! Now I see the ambiguity. >To avoid that possible (incorrect, but possible) ambiguity, how about >wording it as "trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the >two last message identifiers always remain."? (I would think that >"first and two last" is harder to misinterpret than "first and last >two" due to the lack of possible parallelism.) What I have actually put now is "... that the first message identifier and the last two always remain." -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKXrdG061611 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EKXrUG061610 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EKXqWk061603 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-145.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.145]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af3f2e.9a1.1598 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:33:50 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EKTln07088 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:47 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21298 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Guaranteed MUSTard Message-ID: <II3BLF.59y@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II11Js.Fqu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADD1D7.33D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:00:51 GMT Lines: 70 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42ADD1D7.33D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> if you are generating a mail reply, you use the rules given >> in RFC 2822, not the rules I have written for USEPRO (though >> they are near enough the same). >Followup-To: poster is an issue for news. USEPRO tells you to email it in that case. It is not the job of our drafts to tell you how to email things. > [...] in the course of generating a followup. >Delete "or for some other reason" plus examples, because it's >unrelated to Followup agents. No, that section applies to *all* References headers, not just to followups. >The prose about a "Mail-Copies-To" in usepro-03 (7.6) is also >obsolete, Yes, it is gone now. >> if we do things differently than in RFC 2822, then this needs >> to be pointed out >The three differences: 1 - we trim, they don't. 2 - they have >an In-Reply-To, we don't. 3 - they say [CFWS], we say CFWS. And 4 - we MUST have them in followups; 2822 says SHOULD have them in replies. >The fourth point, the worst references could be anything, is no >difference, we have it now in the definition, they have it as a >SHOULD (not a MUST, so obviously other references might exist). No, that is not the meaning of that SHOULD in RFC 2822. They say 'reply messages SHOULD have "In-Reply-To:" and "References:' fields. I don't think it ever occurred to them that someone might want to use References in messages that were not replies. They do not forbid it, but they give no guidance on how to do it. >> If you follow the procedure given, then that is the result >> that you will get. >No, it is not. The given procedure gets it right for the LAST >msg-id added to the references. It cannot guarantee anything >about OLDER msg-ids in the msg-id-list. Among other problems >there's no guarantee that the FIRST msg-id properly identifies >the start of the thread. If the OLDER msg-ids were not created by the proper procedure, then they were garbage already. If _every_ msg-id in the header was put there by some previous agent using the procedure I gave, then the result is indeed guaranteed. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EJNwOO056320 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EJNwD8056319 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EJNvub056313 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5EJNkF1029678; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5EJNkIR029677; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050614151720.29052E-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Alternatively, one could introduce the lowercase restriction using the > "obs-" convention... And restrict them like this: > A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and > SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be > used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this > naming scheme. This sounds like a good idea to me. > The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used... > The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in > various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used for > the names of normal newsgroups... > NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a > protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. And that also sounds good. > Suggestions for edits, or parts of this that belong in USEPRO not USEFOR? Put it all in USEFOR. As per previous posting, putting it in one place is *much* better than arbitrarily subdividing it. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EJDL1B055513 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EJDL3h055512 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EJDKEg055498 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5EJD7F1029624; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5EJD7mD029623; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:13:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <200506141654.j5EGsvt15113@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050614150909.29052C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Seth Breidbart wrote: > Deprecate them all in one place (even if some of them are "officially" > deprecated there, and the others are mentioned in a NOTE as being > deprecated elsewhere). Failing to do so will confuse implementors. > > Anyplace that ANY newsgroup names are deprecated MUST mention (at > least by pointer) ALL deprecated newsgroup names. I concur. It is very important that all restrictions and prohibitions be together, at least logically (i.e., after following cross-reference pointers). If the discussion is split, each and every part of it MUST cross-reference all other parts, no exceptions. Keeping it all together in one place would make the most sense. The format/protocol split is supposed to be *helpful*, not a religious law which must be followed no matter how much it hurts readability. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EIF2JK050626 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EIF2il050625 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EIF181050617 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EIF04w026904 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:15:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 16459 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2005 18:15:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts In-Reply-To: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0400") References: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:15:00 -0700 Message-ID: <87ll5c4xgb.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > Suggestion for a resolution in 3.1.5: > Let the ABNF be "rather liberal". In fact use the existing ABNF. > Let the text explain the various restrictions. > Alternatively, one could introduce the lowercase restriction using the > "obs-" convention, like this: > component-char = %x61-7A ; lowercase letters > / DIGIT / "+" / "-" / "_" / obs-component-char > obs-component-char = %x41-5A ; uppercase letters > And restrict them like this: > A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and > SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be > used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this > naming scheme. I like this. I would add "A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT be the string "all" or "ctl", for compatibility with older news software" or something along those lines, since the all and ctl thing is historically a format consideration, not a protocol consideration. .all is equivalent to .* in that news software and is treated as a wildcard, so it actually has different textual semantics, and posting to a group ending in .ctl was a different way of designating control messages. Here's the relevant text from RFC 1036: Wildcards (e.g., the word "all") are never allowed in a "News- groups" line. For example, a newsgroup comp.all is illegal, although a newsgroup rec.sport.football is permitted. For upward compatibility, messages that match the newsgroup pattern "all.all.ctl" should also be interpreted as control messages. If no "Control" header is present on such messages, the subject is used as the control message. However, messages on newsgroups matching this pattern do not conform to this standard. > The second part is the restriction (if any) on + - _. I suggest (in > order to be concrete; I'm not sure it's right): > Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by > future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by > posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. > Components beginning with "+" and "-" ("_") are reserved for private > use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in > Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control > messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. > However, such names MUST be accepted by > relaying and serving agents. Works for me. > The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used as > the name of a newsgroup: > Groups starting with the component "example" > The group "poster" Right. > The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in > various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used > for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific > purpose, or by local agreement. > Groups with one component > Groups starting with "junk" Hm, I'm not sure what to do with junk.foo. It's actually a normal newsgroup with no special properties, just a horribly confusing name that's likely to run afoul of common newsfeed patterns. To USEAGE, maybe? > Groups starting with "to" Including the group "to". > Groups containing the component "all" > Groups containing the component "ctl" > The group "control" And also groups starting with "control". The whole hierarchy is reserved for special purposes. > The group "junk" > NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a > protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. Right. > Suggestions for edits, or parts of this that belong in USEPRO not > USEFOR? I would take everything other than the uppercase, digits, all, ctl, "poster", and special character notes and move it all to USEPRO, except for junk.* which could probably go to USEAGE (although I wouldn't care too much if it ended up in USEFOR). USEPRO can then also include the explanations of what junk is for, what control.* is for, how to.* is used, etc. There's enough material for a whole section on special newsgroup names. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI8HuK049803 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EI8H6Q049802 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI8GYa049796 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EI8F9r008257 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 16316 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2005 18:08:15 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II2uFB.M4@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:49:59 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <00f401c57054$ce499620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <II2uFB.M4@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:08:15 -0700 Message-ID: <87psuo4xrk.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > I would presume that any INN site will have refused to create that > group, and any others like it. INN will refuse to honor a control message for it with the default controlchan configuration (which can be changed). If the newsgroup were created manually with ctlinnd, INN would have no problems with it. INN assigns no special meaning to "all" or "ctl" name components (with one exception) and treats such groups like any other group internally; the only place they're handled separately is in auditing newsgroup names in control messages. The one exception is that if a control message (with a Control header) is posted to a group whose name ends in example.foo.ctl, it is treated as if it were posted to example.foo for propagation purposes. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI51DI049616 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EI51du049615 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI51bb049603 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EI50HA010940 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:05:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 16195 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2005 18:05:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:14:26 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:05:00 -0700 Message-ID: <87u0k04xwz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Whilst "junk", "control.*", "example.*", plus the ones with conponents > starting with "+" or "-" (if we retain that distinction) are reserved to > special purposes, and might be dealt with in USEPRO, I think "poster" > and "to.*" need to be put alongside "ctl" and "all" in USEFOR, since > some very funny things can happen if people try to post articles into > them. The special things that happen with to.* are protocol things, not format things, and should be put into the protocol document; otherwise, the split that we're creating is rather meaningless. "ctl" and "all" *are* USEFOR things, but I think it may be an open question at this point whether we really care to continue to cater to the obsolete wildcard format of C News, given that apparently some people have started to ignore this with alt.* groups that are propagating. Maybe it's time to move that restriction to a SHOULD NOT instead of a MUST NOT with a note that the restriction is likely to be removed entirely in a future revision of the standard. > My view is that it is simpler to deprecate them all in one place, but if > the WG or our Chair wants them split between USEFOR and USEPRO in that > manner, then it could be done. More opinions? I think it should be split. > The current wording in USEFOR is: > Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by > future versions of this standard and MUST NOT occur in <newsgroup- > name>s (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages > [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted. > Is that OK? It seems to allow a new standard to say "OK, you can now > start to generate them with the following meaning". I like Harald's wording better. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI2D3A049455 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:02:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EI2DjM049454 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:02:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EI2CRG049448 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5EI2BZH006133 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:02:12 -0700 Received: (qmail 16141 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2005 18:02:11 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II2u54.JL@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:43:51 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II2u54.JL@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:02:11 -0700 Message-ID: <87y89c4y1o.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >> There's IMHO nothing wrong (syntactically) with the news-URLs >> <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> >> <news://news.gmane.org/junk> > Indeed, but these are intended to be "Read Only" groups as far as Usenet > is concerned. So by all means use those URI in order to read the groups, > but don't expect to be able to POST to them. I am fairly certain this is not the case for spamcop. > If it's a Read Only group, then its name MUST NOT appear in a Newsgroups > header (thogh it MAY appear in an Xref header). There are plenty of articles out there that have "junk" in the Newsgroups header. I understand why you don't like the practice, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't break the protocol. => USEPRO or even USEAGE. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGsxi1043449 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EGsxxg043448 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:54:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGswo2043441 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE6658B2E for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5EGsvt15113; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506141654.j5EGsvt15113@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > Whilst "junk", "control.*", "example.*", plus the ones with conponents > starting with "+" or "-" (if we retain that distinction) are reserved to > special purposes, and might be dealt with in USEPRO, I think "poster" and > "to.*" need to be put alongside "ctl" and "all" in USEFOR, since some very > funny things can happen if people try to post articles into them. > > My view is that it is simpler to deprecate them all in one place, but if > the WG or our Chair wants them split between USEFOR and USEPRO in that > manner, then it could be done. More opinions? Deprecate them all in one place (even if some of them are "officially" deprecated there, and the others are mentioned in a NOTE as being deprecated elsewhere). Failing to do so will confuse implementors. Anyplace that ANY newsgroup names are deprecated MUST mention (at least by pointer) ALL deprecated newsgroup names. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNv6x040468 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EGNvYw040467 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNujj040448 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-99.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.99]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af0276.16b97.312 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:46 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EFMjx04261 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:22:45 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21290 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II2u54.JL@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:43:51 GMT Lines: 76 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> we concluded that a ban on uppercase was the safest option. >Please propose ABNF if that's about USEFOR-05. component = 1*component-char ; but containing at least ; one non-DIGIT component-char = %x61-7a / DIGIT / "+" / "-" / "_" ; uppercase letters excluded >> perhaps a NOTE to the effect that some existing groups with >> UC names (and also some with all-digit components) DO exist >> on Usenet NOTE: the above syntax excludes uppercase letters (because of uncertainties as to whether they will be treated case insensitively by existing software) and all-digit components (because this can cause difficulties for a widely deployed storage technique). The fact that a small number of newsgroups have been formed on Usenet in violation of these restrictions should not be seen as legitimizing the creation of further non-compliant newsgroups. >Depending on what we pick our news-nntp-uri drafts have to be >updated. At the moment ALPHA as in 1738 appears to be wrong. No, those drafts (well, mine at least) allows the wider set of newsgroup-names that the latest NNTP draft allows (which deliberately leaves it to the news format standards to specify a more restricted set for actual use). So you are entitled to ask for <news://news.example.net/alt.2600> and, in that particular case, you will likely get it. >>| o Newsgroup-names having only one component. These are >>| reserved for newsgroups whose propagation is restricted to >>| a single host or local network >There's IMHO nothing wrong (syntactically) with the news-URLs > <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> > <news://news.gmane.org/junk> Indeed, but these are intended to be "Read Only" groups as far as Usenet is concerned. So by all means use those URI in order to read the groups, but don't expect to be able to POST to them. >So that MUST NOT is not what I'd expect in the ABNF. Maybe it >is a bad idea like fancy References, but not a syntax problem. If it's a Read Only group, then its name MUST NOT appear in a Newsgroups header (thogh it MAY appear in an Xref header). >Some prose should cover it, I tend to SHOULD NOT for the class. >In theory a newsgroup "poster" is possible. Utter dubious and >most probably a very bad idea, but not really MUST NOT harmful. >Or is it harmful ? I think it probably is. Suppose an article has Newsgroups: poster,misc.test and you want to followup to the "poster" group only :-( . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNuPs040458 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EGNuH7040456 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNtwR040438 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-99.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.99]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af0275.16b97.311 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EFMib04257 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:22:44 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21289 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II2q02.3q@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:14:26 GMT Lines: 61 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> Here is the relevant text from draft-13, which could usefully be copied >> into USEFOR more-or-less as it stands: >[...] >Hm, that sure looks mostly like USEPRO material to me. >USEFOR should deal with what newsgroup names are *syntactically* valid and >discuss newsgroup names that are *always* forbidden. If the newsgroup >name is just reserved for special purposes, that's exactly the sort of >thing that USEPRO is for. Given that reasoning, the only ones of these >that I would put into USEFOR are: >> o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "ctl" (likewise); >> o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "all" (because this >> is used as a wildcard in some implementations). Whilst "junk", "control.*", "example.*", plus the ones with conponents starting with "+" or "-" (if we retain that distinction) are reserved to special purposes, and might be dealt with in USEPRO, I think "poster" and "to.*" need to be put alongside "ctl" and "all" in USEFOR, since some very funny things can happen if people try to post articles into them. My view is that it is simpler to deprecate them all in one place, but if the WG or our Chair wants them split between USEFOR and USEPRO in that manner, then it could be done. More opinions? >> There was also provision for reserved components begining with "_" for >> "future extensions". It is not so clear whether those should be >> prohibited from propagating. >If we're going to reserve one of these characters for future >standardization purposes, it needs to propagate. All of the reasons for >reserving a group name that I can think of would need them to propagate >(such as using it for punycode). The current wording in USEFOR is: Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by future versions of this standard and MUST NOT occur in <newsgroup- name>s (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted. Is that OK? It seems to allow a new standard to say "OK, you can now start to generate them with the following meaning". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNtLW040447 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EGNtpo040446 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EGNsU3040436 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-74-99.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.74.99]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42af0275.16b97.310 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5EFMkb04265 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:22:46 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21291 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II2uFB.M4@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <00f401c57054$ce499620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:49:59 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <00f401c57054$ce499620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> writes: >No doubt old news, but I see several in my newsgroups-list. >Most in alt.* >Other example: sol.lists.freebsd.cvs.all.digest Which is a pity, because alt.* is one hierarchy where you may want to be extremely picky as to what groups you allow for in your sys file, but in CNews you could not do so if you wanted to distinguish between similar groups with and without "all" in them. I would presume that any INN site will have refused to create that group, and any others like it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EDYIJl022909 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EDYIGR022908 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EDYHoo022901 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C729E61ACD for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:34:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28606-07 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:34:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305D461B4A for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:34:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:33:50 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1021: USEFOR 3.1.5 Newsgroups - suggested texts Message-ID: <A3144E13755E7D3CACB6EA26@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> After checking all the mail on the #1021 thread, a suggestion... - a number of restrictions are Good Ideas on newsgroup names. Particularly: - No all-digit components - No to., all, junk, test, example et al - Lowercase letters only - No leading + - _ (until assigned standard meaning) - No single-component newsgroup names - however, a number of these constructs are *necessary* in order to access existing newsgroups such as alt.2600, sol.lists.freebsd.cvs.all.digest, "junk" and so on Suggestion for a resolution in 3.1.5: Let the ABNF be "rather liberal". In fact use the existing ABNF. Let the text explain the various restrictions. Alternatively, one could introduce the lowercase restriction using the "obs-" convention, like this: component-char = %x61-7A ; lowercase letters / DIGIT / "+" / "-" / "_" / obs-component-char obs-component-char = %x41-5A ; uppercase letters And restrict them like this: A newsgroup component SHOULD NOT consist of digits only, and SHOULD NOT contain uppercase letters. Such components MAY be used only to refer to existing groups that do not conform to this naming scheme. The second part is the restriction (if any) on + - _. I suggest (in order to be concrete; I'm not sure it's right): Components beginning with underline ("_") are reserved for use by future versions of this standard and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages [USEPRO]). However, such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. Components beginning with "+" and "-" ("_") are reserved for private use and MUST NOT be generated by posting agents (whether in Newsgroups headers or in newgroup control messages [USEPRO]) without a private prior agreement to do so. However, such names MUST be accepted by relaying and serving agents. Suggestions for modifications are in order.... The third part is the restriction on component names. I've gathered the following from the discussion (the below is a suggestion for text): The following newsgroup names are reserved, and MUST NOT be used as the name of a newsgroup: Groups starting with the component "example" The group "poster" The following newsgroup names have been used for specific purposes in various implementations and protocols, and MUST therefore not be used for the names of normal newsgroups. They MAY be used for their specific purpose, or by local agreement. Groups with one component Groups starting with "junk" Groups starting with "to" Groups containing the component "all" Groups containing the component "ctl" The group "control" The group "junk" NOTE: Some newsgroups violating these restrictions exist. It is not a protocol violation to use these names to access those newsgroups. ------------------------------------------------------------ Suggestions for edits, or parts of this that belong in USEPRO not USEFOR? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EDMcnV020729 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EDMbl3020727 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j5EDMaK9020688 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mail@sebastian-brocks.de) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Jun 2005 13:22:30 -0000 Received: from xdsl-87-78-10-128.netcologne.de (EHLO [192.168.1.2]) [87.78.10.128] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 14 Jun 2005 15:22:30 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1840277 Message-ID: <42AEDA10.5080702@sebastian-brocks.de> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:22:24 +0200 From: Sebastian Brocks <mail@sebastian-brocks.de> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de-DE; rv:1.7.6) Gecko/20050404 Thunderbird/1.0.2 Mnenhy/0.7.2.0 X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Frank Ellermann schrieb: > There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's > in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. (...) > Maybe somebody else has > an opinion. I agree with your position. greetings, Sebastian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCrtoOPlwI4sEdWTARAuxRAKCjkRc9/QFFtADbNdrj9nEX4MiMLACfYv2j zDDLsIcucP15XY6PuUWs+7Q= =YE5k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EDGD8o018615 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EDGDxT018613 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:16:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EDGCaQ018599 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiBBf-0003fQ-CY for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:10:39 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:10:39 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:10:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:05:29 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 40 Message-ID: <42AED619.1844@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I'm going to resolve the ticket as "just replace mqtext with > *mqtext". > OK? There's a dispute about the meaning of <id-right>. I say it's in fact an <id-domain>, a proper name space with an owner. TTBOMK Charles says, whatever it is, in a msg-id it's case sensitive. These positions aren't incompatible, but somewhat different. I'm obsessed with the (2)822 semantics, Charles is more interested in a visual similarity to RfC 2822 <id-right>. Message-IDs are at the very core of Netnews. More than three opinions about it for a clearer rough consensus might help. Henry and Russ refuse to discuss it. Maybe somebody else has an opinion. Bye, Frank msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" id-local = dot-atom-text / ( DQUOTE id-quote DQUOTE ) id-quote = ( "." [id-text] ) / ( [id-text] "." ) / ( [id-text] id-special [id-text] ) id-text = 1*( atext / "." / id-special ) id-special = "(" / ")" / "," / ; all specials, minus ">", "[" / "]" / "@" / ; minus DQUOTE, minus "\", ":" / ";" / "<" / ; minus single ".", plus: ".." / "\\" / ( "\" DQUOTE ) id-domain = dot-atom-text / ("[" id-literal "]") id-literal = 1*( %d33-61 / ; printable ASCII minus %d63-90 / ; ">", "[", "\", "]" %d94-126 / ; plus "\[", "\\, "\]" "\[" / "\\" / "\]" ) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ED8uu0015253 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ED8uRL015252 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ED8rO7015220 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiB4e-0002UO-4D for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:03:24 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:03:23 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:03:23 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1002 USEFOR 6. References - propose to accept and leave to editor to write Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:47:31 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42AED1E3.450@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <581FF494C2689AAA9E82CA2C@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I suggest we close this ticket and expect to see the new > references in -05. > OK? For these references nits you could keep #1002 open until it's actually fixed in -05. Sometimes closing tickets because all agree has no visible effect in the next draft, if it was only a typo or here some old RfCs - at least I tend to forget such mostly irrelevant details until I see them again. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ECE1t5093968 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ECE16e093967 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ECDx4O093945 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DiACl-0002c0-ID for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:07:43 +0200 Received: from c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.161.89]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:07:43 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:07:43 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:11:10 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 6 Message-ID: <42AEC95E.7716@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-161-89.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Makes sense? Yes, good riddance of this X-header-zoo => #1004 resolved. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBrFRL086600 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EBrFml086599 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBrEIR086587 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4B561B51 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27332-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B373961ACD for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:53:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:52:56 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - X-Headers text suggestion Message-ID: <BC490F8FD865D1C67CC2BBCA@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ticket text and comments so far: > From Frank Ellermann: > > Is deprecating X- headers allowed ? > > From Charles Lindsey, May 26: > >> Is deprecating X- headers allowed ? > > I don't see why not, if you are providing a standard header to fulfil > the same role. > From Frank Ellermann: > > Examples could include "X-NoArchive: yes, (c) 2005 by xyzzy" > or "X-ComplaintsTo: not me". The "same role" is unclear for > X- header fields. > > Not an important point, but if it helps to avoid a warning > from Bruce's review tool I'd just delete the last statement > "These headers are thus deprecated." - the intended effect of > the complainto-param is obvious without it. text suggestion from me: OLD (3.2.13): NOTE: This header supersedes the role performed redundantly by experimental headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and other headers previously used on Usenet and in Email for this purpose. Use of these experimental headers SHOULD be discontinued in favor of the single, standard User-Agent header. NEW: NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in non-standardized headers such as X-Newsreader, X-Mailer, X-Posting- Agent, X-Http-User-Agent, and others. Once an agent uses User-Agent, it should have no need to send these non-standard headers. OLD (3.2.14): This header is intended to replace various currently-used but undocumented headers such as "NNTP-Posting-Host", "X-Trace" and "X-Complaints-To". These headers are thus deprecated. NEW: NOTE: Some of this information has previously been sent in non-standardized headers such as NNTP-Posting-Host, X-trace, X-Complaints-To, and others. Once an injecting agent uses Injection-Info, it should have no need to send these non-standard headers. Makes sense? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBlpA3084635 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EBlpge084633 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBloLR084621 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345BD61B55 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27332-02 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8907C61B51 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:32:23 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Resolution of msg-id issues Message-ID: <55EF88C154FEB2EDB9D5FDB6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ticket #1003 says: > From Frank Ellermann: > >| no-fold-quote = DQUOTE >| ( "." mqtext / >| *mqtext "." / >| *mqtext mqspecial *mqtext ) >| DQUOTE > > s/mqtext/*mqtext/ > > The msg-id = id-left "@" id-right style of syntax is ugly and > doesn't indicate the intended semantics id-local "@" id-domain > > Overloading 2822 no-fold-quote by something else is confusing. > a simple ( DQUOTE id-quote DQuOTE ) is clearer. > > Overloading 2822 no-fold-literal by something else is ugly, a > simple id-literal is clearer > > The terms mqtext, mqspecial, and mdtext are cryptic (mq means > "something in msg-id no-fold-quote", the d in md probably means > "domain-literal"). > > id-text, id-special, and id-literal are clearer (stuff needed > only in a msg-id, no separate no-fold-literal vs. mdtext). See > also <http://mid.gmane.org/426F6AC8.5045@xyzzy.claranet.de> I recorded 2 comments - from Charles Lindsey and Frank Ellermann - indicating that the replacement mqtext/*mqtext was correct, but on the naming issue Charles said: > you have raised all these before, but nobody supported you > and our Chair said to leave it be. If nobody else wishes to reopen the issue of the names of the productions, I'm going to resolve the ticket as "just replace mqtext with *mqtext". OK? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBlmKb084612 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5EBlmli084611 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5EBllT1084599 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B6C61B55 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27289-03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA7661ACD for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:14:27 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1002 USEFOR 6. References - propose to accept and leave to editor to write Message-ID: <581FF494C2689AAA9E82CA2C@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> The text of ticket #1002 is the following: >From Frank Ellermann: 2234 => 2234bis 2366 => 3851 --------------- 2373 => 3513 (missing in the references) 3513 has no IPv4address / IPv6address ABNF, therefore let's replace 2373 by 3986 (STD 66). If Ken is clear on what needs to be done, I suggest we close this ticket and expect to see the new references in -05. OK? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3ObZK015326 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5E3ObYF015325 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3OavR015318 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E3861ACD; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21346-03; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C52561B4A; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:14:45 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Ticket system mechanics (Re: References semantics (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup")) Message-ID: <E8054BEAE3C634AB06783DCB@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 13. juni 2005 08:26 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > Why are you not entering tickets for USEPRO? The point of a ticket > system is to record issues so that work on them can occur at time other > than when they are raised. Delaying they entry of tickets is completely > wrong. Limited time on my hands. I have a hard time just keeping up with the USEFOR issues. More people entering tickets (and tracking followup on tickets) would help, if we could avoid stumbling over each others' feet. > If you don't want to discuss USEPRO now, and you don't want to enter > tickets, > then I think it is appropriate to convince Charles that the documents must > be considered independently, and then instruct him not to post USEPRO text > until you will allow discussion. So far, I'm unconvinced of the need for the strong linkage that Charles seems to assume is needed; since he's holding the pen on USEPRO, I can understand that he tends to see things in terms of USEPRO changes, but I haven't seen a case yet where people (apart from Charles) argued one way or another about what was needed in USEFOR based on the USEPRO changes. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3OYA8015315 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5E3OYc4015314 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3OXlJ015302 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4D761B4B; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21353-01; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D9F61ACD; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:09:54 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Message-ID: <AB5107AC1F142BDAD680600B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <II0uF5.Et6@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <II0uF5.Et6@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 13. juni 2005 11:54 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> (I'm somewhat unsure what a "header line" means - it isn't listed in the >> definitions, and is not used in 2822. I'm assuming that it's a line (as >> defined in RFC 2822) that occurs in the header (as defined in RFC 2822)) > > It is used variously in various places (sometimes when speaking of the > individual lines after a header is folded). Therefore, it SHOULD NOT be > used, unless the context makes it absolutely clear what is intended. I propose that we define "header line" explicitly as the part of a header (field) that starts at the start of a line and ends with CRLF. That's the interpretation that seems consistent with its usage in USEFOR. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3OXh4015306 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5E3OX5j015305 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5E3OUtq015293 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9CF61B4B; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21346-02; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29BB61B4A; Tue, 14 Jun 2005 05:24:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:07:19 -0400 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <A73AD83D9BEE949094D0BFB9@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 13. juni 2005 14:42 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> Surely this is a quality of implementation issue. > > Then why does RFC 2822 make such an issue of it, giving encouragement to > fold everything within 78 characters (rather than 998), presumablt because > that's how user agents prefer it. In the Beginning Of Time, certain email systems ran on IBM mainframes, and stored email in record-oriented files, one record per line, which had a hard limit of 80 characters per line (think punch-card hard). I believe (hope!) that all these systems are now dead. A number of email readers ran by dumping their output on 80-character terminals, some of which had an irritating bug where, if you sent it 80 characters and a CRLF, the cursor would move 2 lines down, not one - making column 80 "dangerous territory". I hope these terminals are now disposed of in an environmentally friendly fashion, and no longer interesting. When variable-width textboxes became available, non-folding headers sometimes caused a long scrollbar at the bottom of the header-display box. Uncomfortable. (This happens also if you pull up a message with a long header in text format inside a text editor, btw) Thus, a number of people grew to like everything folding within 80 characters, because it gave a consistent display when you could guarantee that you had 80 characters available. Summary: It used to be an interoperability issue. Nowadays I hope it's just an user preference issue. (note on terminology: in my parlance, user agents are software; they execute, and work or fail to work. users are the ones who have preferences....) Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKx1Ag084921 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DKx1qm084920 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKx0MJ084913 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA9F13A7AE for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j5DKx0a10797; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506132059.j5DKx0a10797@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <013f01c57059$602dc620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> (rvtol@isolution.nl) Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> <013f01c57059$602dc620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> wrote: > Charles Lindsey schreef: >> trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the >> last two message identifiers always remain. > > I still can read that as if the first two and the last two message > identifiers (so four) must remain. To avoid that possible (incorrect, but possible) ambiguity, how about wording it as "trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the two last message identifiers always remain."? (I would think that "first and two last" is harder to misinterpret than "first and last two" due to the lack of possible parallelism.) Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKnRKf084192 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DKnR3m084191 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKnQDY084182 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5DKnISE038154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:49:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <013f01c57059$602dc620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:34 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey schreef: > trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the > last two message identifiers always remain. I still can read that as if the first two and the last two message identifiers (so four) must remain. Of course it is better that they do, because that enhances the possibility that one of those articles is still known and/or received. Maybe just remove the 'two'. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKMbhf082386 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DKMbVi082385 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKMaaI082377 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DhvS7-000JnL-9R for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:22:35 +0000 Message-ID: <giPbOYr9qerCFA88@highwayman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:21:17 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <7Jy$+zDz77vstNKLnia+d+rZTO> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>>7.6.1. Construction of the References header >>> >>> If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if >>> its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters it >>> MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message >>> identifiers MUST NOT be removed. [snip] >> It would be helpful to make that crystal clear. I can suggest some >> words, if that's necessary.... looks as if it might be :( I've tried to use header field etc as they should be used, but have not checked if the other jargon I've chucked in is entirely consistent. That should however be reasonably simple to adjust > If the parent did not have a References header, the content of the > new article's References header MUST be inherited from that of the > Message-ID header of the parent, otherwise (there already was a > References header) it MUST be comprised of the parent's References > header followed by CFWS and the Message-ID header content of the > parent (subject to trimming as described below). The field body for the new article's References header field MUST be constructed as follows. The field body from the parent's References header field (if any) is placed first followed by CFWS. The field body is completed by adding the field body from the Message-ID header field of the parent. Any comments that are present within the field body MAY be removed. > If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if > its total length, whether folded or not, and including the header > name but not the final CRLF, exceeds 998 chacacters it MUST) then be > trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the last two message > identifiers always remain. If the total length of the resulting References header field (which includes the 12 character header field name at the start, but not the terminating CRLF) exceeds 998 octets it MUST be trimmed and it MAY be trimmed at any length. Trimming involves the removal of any number of message identifiers from the field body except that the first and the last two message identifiers MUST NOT be removed. >I am not sure that it really better (and it is certainly longer). well I propose my wording as more direct (and addressing the issues that I raised, as well as the comments issue someone else mentioned) >>>The essential property of the >>> References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be >>> preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever >>> precede one of its own parents. > >>nope :( if you're given rubbish (eg an article with existing circular >>references) then this statement suggests that you have an obligation to >>fix it up. I don't think that's a reasonable requirement. I suggest that >>since this is merely meant to be a helpful deduction then it is either >>toned down or removed. > >If all References headers are constructed according to the preceding >paragraphs, then circular references cannot arise. correct, but not the point I was making >If, by some accident, >one does arise, then "garbage in, garbage out" applies as usual. that also wasn't the point I was making :( I was suggesting that implementors who realised that there was a problem might feel that the note obligated them to arrange that what went out was not garbage (as would sometimes be possible). Clearly that's not the intent, so we should arrange that it is clear. >But that paragpraph is just a NOTE, so it has no normative effect (and I >would prefer it to have been said in USEFOR - see my reply to Forrest). I would prefer it not to be said at all, except perhaps as a general hand-waving comment to say that the intent of the References header field and the rules on trimming are to make it easy to assign articles to the correct thread and to place them in an appropriate tree-like structure provided that propagation is not too awful. Of course, we would add, there may be mangling going on, so programs should take steps not to be caught out by nonsense. - -- richard @ highwayman . com "Nothing seems the same Still you never see the change from day to day And no-one notices the customs slip away" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQq3qvZoAxkTY1oPiEQLvzACgxtWDA7bFAJHB7OaDvoSs4bqpkiEAn1IN mHesRdoGFUkCVa4PunHAwtq3 =nRfx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKGibV081911 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DKGiWK081910 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DKGgC3081903 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5DKGZBR078887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:16:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <00f401c57054$ce499620$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:15:22 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey schreef: > o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "all" (because this > is used as a wildcard in some implementations). No doubt old news, but I see several in my newsgroups-list. Most in alt.* Other example: sol.lists.freebsd.cvs.all.digest -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DIjXTY073803 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DIjX8d073802 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DIjVxT073796 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhtrK-0007wC-4Y for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:40:30 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.191]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:40:30 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:40:30 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:55:21 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 52 Message-ID: <42ADC889.6268@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > we concluded that a ban on uppercase was the safest option. Please propose ABNF if that's about USEFOR-05. > perhaps a NOTE to the effect that some existing groups with > UC names (and also some with all-digit components) DO exist > on Usenet There are apparently three options for the US-ASCII letters: ALPHA ; dubious with NNTP 27 %x41-5A ; conflict with RfC 1738 %x41-5A / %61-7A ; CAVEAT, case sensitive Depending on what we pick our news-nntp-uri drafts have to be updated. At the moment ALPHA as in 1738 appears to be wrong. >| The following forms of newsgroup-name MUST NOT be used >| except for the specific purposes indicated: >| o Newsgroup-names having only one component. These are >| reserved for newsgroups whose propagation is restricted to >| a single host or local network There's IMHO nothing wrong (syntactically) with the news-URLs <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> <news://news.gmane.org/junk> So that MUST NOT is not what I'd expect in the ABNF. Maybe it is a bad idea like fancy References, but not a syntax problem. Some prose should cover it, I tend to SHOULD NOT for the class. In theory a newsgroup "poster" is possible. Utter dubious and most probably a very bad idea, but not really MUST NOT harmful. Or is it harmful ? > MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers; MAY > appear in Xref headers. I don't see a technical problem with "junk" in the Newsgroups. [only digits] > I agree this prohibition should remain Corresponding ABNF proposed elsewhere, essentially two options: At least one non-digit or (as in s-o-1036) at least one letter. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DIeZIj073429 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DIeZUI073428 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DIeWJa073419 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhtlC-0006er-4Y for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:34:10 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.191]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:34:10 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:34:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Guaranteed MUSTard Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:35:03 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 51 Message-ID: <42ADD1D7.33D8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <II11Js.Fqu@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-191.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > if you are generating a mail reply, you use the rules given > in RFC 2822, not the rules I have written for USEPRO (though > they are near enough the same). Followup-To: poster is an issue for news. If you think that 2822 is good enough, then 2046 is also good enough for partial, and we get this short statement in USEPRO 7.6: [...] in the course of generating a followup. Delete "or for some other reason" plus examples, because it's unrelated to Followup agents. The prose about a "Mail-Copies-To" in usepro-03 (7.6) is also obsolete, > if we do things differently than in RFC 2822, then this needs > to be pointed out The three differences: 1 - we trim, they don't. 2 - they have an In-Reply-To, we don't. 3 - they say [CFWS], we say CFWS. The fourth point, the worst references could be anything, is no difference, we have it now in the definition, they have it as a SHOULD (not a MUST, so obviously other references might exist). > If you follow the procedure given, then that is the result > that you will get. No, it is not. The given procedure gets it right for the LAST msg-id added to the references. It cannot guarantee anything about OLDER msg-ids in the msg-id-list. Among other problems there's no guarantee that the FIRST msg-id properly identifies the start of the thread. > Of course, I cannot "guarantee" what will happen it you don't > follow the procedure. Therefore I recommend to remove this false "guarantee" before it could confuse implementors. > Garbage in -> garbage out. Exactly. Garbage in -> trimmed garbage with the precusor out. No guarantees, no graph theory, just a msg-id-list as defined in USEFOR. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DHgrWm069398 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DHgrUq069397 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DHgqfF069388 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5DHgjMM080881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506131001520.14243@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.212 () SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >John, how much does it take to make you see that the door you're trying to >bash in is already open? Your response is condescending and insulting. >The fact that this issue made it onto the ticket system without the list >being notified is an error; That's right. And that is the first time I've seen you say that. So your statement above about "how much does it take" is insulting. It implies you've been saying this all along and I've just not "gotten it". >it is the list that is the WG. Which list? The trouble ticket list, or this group? Since issues are being raised on the trouble ticket list and discussion is taking place there, I have to assume you mean "the trouble ticket list". >Because this system is run as a voluntary gift to the IETF by Randy Bush, >and he thinks the entire idea of trusting "root certificates" just because >they got shipped with your browser is ludicrous. >I can see his point. We aren't talking about trusting root certificates, we are talking about accepting SSL certificates that are self-certified for a service that has NO need for certs in the first place. That begs the question of why you think it is appropriate to run an off-WG discussion list just because it was a gift. >Take it up with Randy. I wish you luck. No, I take it up with YOU because YOU are the Chair of this WG and YOU are responsible for the creation and use of the off-WG discussion forum where "off-list" issues are being raised and discussed. Randy has nothing to do with this; he's not the one forcing these invalid certs down our throats if we want to participate in the discussion of issues relevant to this WG. You are. >John, I'll be impolite for once. You've already been impolite. Don't pretend otherwise. >This group has demonstrated conclusively that just having discussions on >the list does not lead to the group finishing. Irrelevant. Either this working group is the USEFOR working group or it is not. IETF says it is, but the chair of this group is running another discussion forum that is handling USEFOR issues, so there is some question. >A trouble ticket system is one means of helping a group close. Like I already said, if it were just "a trouble ticket system" where you were creating and even publishing a list of problem points that needed to be discussed, that's fine. But this is NOT just "a trouble ticket system", it is a full-blown alternate discussion forum where issues are being taken directly without coming through here first. That is not acceptable. "We cannot finish in this group" is not an excuse. >Your behaviour is part of the reason the group is not finishing. Not agreeing with the "consensus" when the consensus changes from week to week is hardly the cause of the problem. >You didn't get the point that "6." referred to section 6 in the document, >did you? Of course I understood that "6" referred to section 6 of a document. Stop being insulting. YOU didn't get the point that "No discussion, ticket seems clear" is demonstrating that the "trouble ticket system" is being used to bypass the discussion that IS taking place in THIS group. >Feel free to leave, John. I'll not hold my breath waiting for you to censur yourself like you did Bruce. This WG is working on more than one standard, both literally and figuratively. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGb6Ad064013 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DGb6wJ064012 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGb5Q5063997 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5DGb4IL007521 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:37:04 -0700 Received: (qmail 16051 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jun 2005 16:37:04 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) In-Reply-To: <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:42:54 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:37:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87hdg26wnj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >>> IMO, Newsgroups folding would be very useful. Newsgroups headers in >>> excess of 80 characters are very common. They display badly in many >>> user agents; e.g. there is just a '!' to indicate "rest of line >>> truncated", or they are are wrapped arbitrarily in the middle of a >>> newsgroup (or between newsgroups if you are lucky). >> Surely this is a quality of implementation issue. > Then why does RFC 2822 make such an issue of it, giving encouragement to > fold everything within 78 characters (rather than 998), presumablt > because that's how user agents prefer it. Because, all other things being equal, it's better to fold stuff. As RFC 822 allowed folding all over the place, all other things are equal. All other things are most decidedly not equal for Usenet, which has never allowed folding in some headers. > Generally speaking, I have a great dislike if what user agents show me > has been munged beyond ehat was actually on the wire. That's really not a good reason to require in the protocol that articles be pre-formatted for your personal preferences. :) > Control _can_ be folded (it has FWS in it). We haven't fixed that yet? Consider the same objections lodged as to folding Newsgroups, but with considerably more vehemence. Consider, for instance, the behavior of: Control: newgroup example.some.really.long.newsgroup.name moderated in different existing implementations. > I believe Paths are regularly folded in the Real Usenet. I think you're confusing what was written into this draft years ago with what actually happens out on the wire where no one is paying attention to these drafts. :) Since it happens to work with at least some major servers, a few people may fold Path headers just for grins, but it is not in my experience an event that could be described with the term "regularly." -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQERt062492 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DGQEac062489 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQDIT062472 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-219.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.219]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42adb0dc.12cc1.22a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:14:20 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DGCWa21284 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:32 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21272 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroups folding test Message-ID: <II1132.Fnq@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87d5qt1s7y.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:18:38 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87d5qt1s7y.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> OK, let's try it. >I don't find these exercises useful. I don't think they really prove what >you're trying to prove. It wasn't meant to _prove_ anything. It was intended to find out how well such articles would propagate at the present time. Not as well as I would have expected, it seems, but since it got as far as Google it certainly travelled some considerable distance from where I sent it. But it would be nice to see some Paths. > Propagation only measures whether or not the vast >majority of servers reject it; if only a smaller number of servers reject >the message, it could still be a significant problem in practice but won't >show on this sort of a test. What I am curious to know is whether some servers decided not to store it even after they had received it (or whether they stored it in "junk"). Looking in server logs might be instructive. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQEbO062494 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DGQEbl062491 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQDeV062471 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-219.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.219]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42adb0df.12cc1.22c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:14:23 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DGCZ021291 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21273 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Guaranteed MUSTard (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <II11Js.Fqu@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:28:40 GMT Lines: 60 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> in the course of generating a followup or for some other >> reason (e.g. the later parts of a multipart posting such >> as a FAQ, or the later parts of a message/partial as >> suggested in [RFC 2046]) >I'd remove these irrelevant examples where other algorithms >might also work, the most important "other reason" is a reply, >not limited to Followup-To: poster. So that would be: > in the course of generating a followup or for some other > reason (e.g. a mail reply). No, if you are generating a mail reply, you use the rules given in RFC 2822, not the rules I have written for USEPRO (though they are near enough the same). >> NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article >> to have more than one parent. >Then don't talk about it, or add the In-Reply-To blurb here: RFC 2822 makes a comparable remark. And if we do things differently than in RFC 2822, then this needs to be pointed out (and since this is a protocol difference, not a format difference, USEPRO is the proper place to do it). >> The essential property of the References header, guaranteed >> by the procedure above and to be preserved in any future >> extension, is that no article can ever precede one of its >> own parents. >There is no "guarantee", this is bad advice for implementors. If you follow the procedure given, then that is the result that you will get. Of course, I cannot "guarantee" what will happen it you don't follow the procedure. >My UA cannot handle self-referencing articles, and Harald has >reported another case, where this "guarantee" simply crashed. No, somebody had evidently not followed the procedure. Garbage in -> garbage out. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQEHH062493 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DGQEfR062490 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DGQDeq062473 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-219.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.219]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42adb0e0.12cc1.22d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:14:24 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DGCbQ21296 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:37 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21274 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <II127I.FuK@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:42:54 GMT Lines: 71 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> IMO, Newsgroups folding would be very useful. Newsgroups headers in >> excess of 80 characters are very common. They display badly in many user >> agents; e.g. there is just a '!' to indicate "rest of line truncated", >> or they are are wrapped arbitrarily in the middle of a newsgroup (or >> between newsgroups if you are lucky). >Surely this is a quality of implementation issue. Then why does RFC 2822 make such an issue of it, giving encouragement to fold everything within 78 characters (rather than 998), presumablt because that's how user agents prefer it. Generally speaking, I have a great dislike if what user agents show me has been munged beyond ehat was actually on the wire. >> Moreover, this is the only header, within News or Mail, that cannot be >> folded, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. >Er, no. Message-ID cannot be folded, Control cannot be folded, Date will >probably break in practice if folded, Followup-To similarly cannot be >folded, and that's just off the top of my head. And I'm still concerned >that folding Path might not actually work in practice, although it does >work with the software I personally have checked. Message-ID cannot be folded simply because the only folding points are at the beginning and end, and we don't allow empty header content or empty folded lines. Control _can_ be folded (it has FWS in it). Folding of Date is possible, but hevily deprecated in RFC 2822 (except before any final comment). We inherit that deprecation. Folding of Followup-To stands or falls with folding of Newsgroups. I believe Paths are regularly folded in the Real Usenet. >> Note that the problem is with relaying agents. I think all current user >> agents would accept and display them properly. >I'm pretty sure you're wrong. See reply to Richard. >> Therefore, I wish to see as much incentive as possible to get relaying >> agents upgraded. MUST accept in our draft is a start. SHOULD NOT >> generate would give more incentive than MUST NOT generate, and something >> even weaker (as in the article-* drafts) would give more incentive >> again. >If a new RFC differs from existing practice by too much, more requirements >that differ from existing practice cease to be motivation to change >software and become motivation to just ignore the document. There is a balance to be struck. Hence this discussion. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DFn6bL057559 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DFn6eW057558 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DFn5hP057551 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5DFn458029162 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:04 -0700 Received: (qmail 13567 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jun 2005 15:49:04 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:48:39 GMT") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87br6a8dfz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> It's not completely clear to me whether this is the right thing to do, >> since there are some uses of mixed-case newsgroup names in the wild >> already and they don't actually break anything beyond making things >> more confusing. The ftp.isc.org list refuses to add them, but the >> protocol actually has historically supported them. > When the WG last discussed this (many years ago) it was claimed that > some software treated newsgroup-names case insensitively and some > didn't. We rejected the idea of allowing injecting agents to "fix it > up", and so we concluded that a ban on uppercase was the safest option. Yeah, I'm leaning more and more towards prohibiting them because of the case-insensitivity mess. > Here is the relevant text from draft-13, which could usefully be copied > into USEFOR more-or-less as it stands: [...] Hm, that sure looks mostly like USEPRO material to me. USEFOR should deal with what newsgroup names are *syntactically* valid and discuss newsgroup names that are *always* forbidden. If the newsgroup name is just reserved for special purposes, that's exactly the sort of thing that USEPRO is for. Given that reasoning, the only ones of these that I would put into USEFOR are: > o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "ctl" (likewise); > o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "all" (because this > is used as a wildcard in some implementations). > {There used to be a Usenet group "general" which even contained stuff > when I first started to read news, but I don't think it propagates any > more.} Why would it have stopped? newsfeed:~/log> grep ' general$' unwanted.log 322514 general Old newsgroups never die; they only become spam traps. > I think articles with "control*" and "junk" in the Newsgroups header > should definitely be prohibited, and hence should not be propagated > (trolls will continue to post to control.*, but that's just what trolls > do :-( ). I'm not really seeing what harm is caused by it, other than it being confusing. Servers that don't want to can easily refuse to propagate such articles. > In draft-13, we also had names containing <component>s starting with "+" > and "-" which were reserved in the same way, the intention being that > servers who wanted to provide some special service to their own > community of clients (say filtered and unfiltered versions of the same > group) could do so without polluting the official namespace (so, with > hindsight, the "junk" group could have been called "+junk"). I think > this would be a useful feature to retain in USEFOR just in order to > prevent further namespace pollution by "enterprising" server admins. > There was also provision for reserved components begining with "_" for > "future extensions". It is not so clear whether those should be > prohibited from propagating. If we're going to reserve one of these characters for future standardization purposes, it needs to propagate. All of the reasons for reserving a group name that I can think of would need them to propagate (such as using it for punycode). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DEv7su052121 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DEv75k052120 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:57:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DEv6Fp052114 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-199-224-120-210-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [199.224.120.210]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5DEuqBR007968 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42AD9EA2.1040107@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:56:34 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <II0wIC.F05@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <II0wIC.F05@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >>5. What should an implementor of a user Agent make of the 7.6 >>language regarding the References header? What can that implementor >>assume about articles created by agents that pre-date the draft? Or >>is there a flag day? What can they assume about a multi-part FAQ? > > > There is no need for any flag day. There is nothing that an implementor > using the References header has to do in consequence of our draft that is > in any way different from what he was doing beforehand. > These documents will obsolete previous standards. They must be a complete specification, suitable for implementation of all software which processes articles. "Nothing....in any way different from what he was doing beforehand" is not a specification, much less a complete specification. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9hxg047985 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DE9hJC047984 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9gCF047968 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90ae.7421.10a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:02 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDr4m19793 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:04 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21266 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Message-ID: <II0uF5.Et6@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:54:41 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >After looing through draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04, I've found that of the >"redefined" terms: > This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and > "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms > "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. >"header name" occurs once. >"header content" occurs three times. You need to count the occurrences in USEPRO and USEAGE too. But "content" is a special case and needs redefining to suit the way it is used in USEPRO. So it should be "header body" in USEFOR, if we retain the "header" terminology (IMO we should retain it). >(I'm somewhat unsure what a "header line" means - it isn't listed in the >definitions, and is not used in 2822. I'm assuming that it's a line (as >defined in RFC 2822) that occurs in the header (as defined in RFC 2822)) It is used variously in various places (sometimes when speaking of the individual lines after a header is folded). Therefore, it SHOULD NOT be used, unless the context makes it absolutely clear what is intended. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9i2e047993 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DE9iJl047992 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9g3K047969 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90c3.7421.10f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:23 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDr3C19786 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:03 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21265 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <II0u53.ErA@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:48:39 GMT Lines: 153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >> This was an issue that Charles raised off-list, I believe. It was raised off list because it related to matters that were contained in the old draft-13 and which were not believed to be controversial, but which had not yet found their way into USEFOR. >> The text of the ticket is the following: >> ------------------------------ >> I suggest to update the Newsgroup ABNF as follows: >> 1). uppercase letters must be prohibited in newsgroup names >It's not completely clear to me whether this is the right thing to do, >since there are some uses of mixed-case newsgroup names in the wild >already and they don't actually break anything beyond making things more >confusing. The ftp.isc.org list refuses to add them, but the protocol >actually has historically supported them. When the WG last discussed this (many years ago) it was claimed that some software treated newsgroup-names case insensitively and some didn't. We rejected the idea of allowing injecting agents to "fix it up", and so we concluded that a ban on uppercase was the safest option. However, perhaps a NOTE to the effect that some existing groups with UC names (and also some with all-digit components) DO exist on Usenet, with a warning that their propagation may be poor and that creation of further such groups would be inappropriate. >> 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this also >> addresses conflict with the special value "poster") >I think they should be allowed; "poster" and "junk" just have to be >reserved. (Getting the wording right for "junk" without going into what >"junk" is used for is going to be a bit tricky.) Here is the relevant text from draft-13, which could usefully be copied into USEFOR more-or-less as it stands: The following forms of newsgroup-name MUST NOT be used except for the specific purposes indicated: o Newsgroup-names having only one component. These are reserved for newsgroups whose propagation is restricted to a single host or local network, and for pseudo-newsgroups such as "poster" (which has special meaning in the Followup-To-header - see section 6.7), "junk" (often used by serving agents), and "control" (likewise); o Any newsgroup-name beginning with "control." (used as pseudo- newsgroups by many serving agents); o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "ctl" (likewise); o "to" or any newsgroup-name beginning with "to." (reserved for the ihave/sendme protocol described in section 7.4, and for test articles sent on an essentially point-to-point basis); o Any newsgroup-name beginning with "example." (reserved for examples in this and other standards); o Any newsgroup-name containing the component "all" (because this is used as a wildcard in some implementations). I think that gives the correct rule for single component newsgroups. {There used to be a Usenet group "general" which even contained stuff when I first started to read news, but I don't think it propagates any more.} >>> 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this >>> also addresses conflict with the special value "poster") >> But not with pseudo-groups like "junk" or "control", and >> the real NG "spamcop" <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> >It depends on how one prohibits them, basically. Definitely, news readers >have to be able to read control and junk, so it has to be able to appear >in the Xref header. In practice, people post to control and junk >directly, but this often doesn't really do what one wants and I'm not sure >it's a good idea to allow in the standard because the behavior is somewhat >undefined. Crossposting to those groups is generally fairly harmless, >just confusing. Creating groups by that name with control messages is a >bad idea and shouldn't happen. I think articles with "control*" and "junk" in the Newsgroups header should definitely be prohibited, and hence should not be propagated (trolls will continue to post to control.*, but that's just what trolls do :-( ). But such "pseudo-groups" can be read from servers, and hence can appear in Xref headers. Therefore, the proper rule for such <newsgroup-name>s should be MUST NOT appear in Newsgroups and Followup-To headers; MAY appear in Xref headers. In draft-13, we also had names containing <component>s starting with "+" and "-" which were reserved in the same way, the intention being that servers who wanted to provide some special service to their own community of clients (say filtered and unfiltered versions of the same group) could do so without polluting the official namespace (so, with hindsight, the "junk" group could have been called "+junk"). I think this would be a useful feature to retain in USEFOR just in order to prevent further namespace pollution by "enterprising" server admins. There was also provision for reserved components begining with "_" for "future extensions". It is not so clear whether those should be prohibited from propagating. >>> 3). prohibiting all digit components can be done in ABNF, >>> but it would be ugly. >> Ugly if necessary is acceptable, but why is it necessary ? >It's necessary to retain backward compatibility with any news server that >uses the traditional directory structure for the news spool, since the >group example.foo.600 and article 600 in example.foo both want to use the >same file name. Many older news servers will essentially crash if one has >created example.foo.600 and article 600 arrives in example.foo. I agree this prohibition should remain (but see suggestion for a NOTE above). >.... It's just hard to work >around if you want to retain the standard spool structure because normally >the part of the server that numbers articles and the part of the server >that stores them don't have a two-way conversation, and there's a fair bit >of existing software out there that just isn't ever going to cope. We sometimes forget that newsreaders sometimes consult the newsspool directly, without using NNTP as a conduit. For example, you can do this in nn (I do) and no doubt in things like trn also. >> And pseudo-TLH "to" is some mail-by-news trick, from a user's POV like >> an NG. >The to.* newsgroups have extremely special handling with older news >software and were used for point-to-point UUCP feeds and similar sorts of >tricks. They are special-cased in numerous places in INN and I believe >also in C News,... And USEPRO still documents how to use them. And there was certainly evidence of them still being used a couple of years ago. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9h7m047976 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DE9hYH047975 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DE9fH4047966 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90ad.7421.109 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:01 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDr5L19797 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:05 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21267 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Message-ID: <II0uIG.Euy@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> <200506102328.32414.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:56:39 GMT Lines: 22 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506102328.32414.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 10 2005 12:50, Henry Spencer wrote: >> We should be consistent: either use the terminology that is common in >> news, or use the RFC 2822 terminology from mail. >1. RFC 2822 isn't just "mail". This has been discussed before. And your particular interpretation of it has been dismissed on each occasion. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvOkH046997 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DDvO9v046996 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvNmt046987 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90be.7421.10e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:18 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDrBg19828 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21269 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II0wIC.F05@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:39:48 GMT Lines: 82 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> 7.6.1. Construction of the References header >> >> The following procedure is to be used whenever some previous article >> (the "parent") is to be referred to in the References header (F- >> 3.2.1) of a new article, whether in the course of generating a >> followup or for some other reason (e.g. the later parts of a >> multipart posting such as a FAQ, or the later parts of a >> message/partial as suggested in [RFC 2046]). >1. This text appears under "duties of a followup agent." You have not >shown text in USEPRO that lets non-followups have a references header, >unless they were generated by a followup agent. Eh? It is USEFOR that "lets" you write a References header for a non-followup. The proposed USEFOR text directs you to USEPRO to find how to do it properly, and the above section is where it tells you that (it is a subsection of 7.6 because there did not seem a better place to put it). That section even gives you examples of non-followup situations that might arise. >Non-followups cannot be generated by a followup agent, because follow up agent is >defined as software used for preparing and posting followups. Indeed. But that section is not restricted to use by followup agents, as its wording clearly implies. >2. Since the semantics of the header were deleted from USEFOR, and the >semantics do not appear in this proposed text for USEPRO, there is >no guidance on how user agents should detect or treat non-followups >that have References headers. I have already expressed my regret at the lack of semantics in USEFOR. It does seem, however, that our chair is willing to permit further discussion of that. But not of the definition/detection of followups. As to treatment of References headers, standards do not normally deal with user interface issues, apart perhaps from sopme brief mention of possibilites, such as what is currently written in USEPRO 7.7. >> NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article to >> have more than one parent. The essential property of the >> References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be >> preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever >> precede one of its own parents. >3. Specifying what something is not is by no means a definition of "The essential >property" of anything. That is a NOTE, not a definition. Given the lack of any semantics in USEFOR, it was the best I could do. An implementor writing a threading algorithm is entitled to assume that the relevant headers (USEPRO 7.7) have been constructed "properly". The essential property mentioned there is the minimum that will enable him to do his job. For sure, it is not enough to say that the References is "just a list of <msg-id>s, as Frank would have it. >5. What should an implementor of a user Agent make of the 7.6 >language regarding the References header? What can that implementor >assume about articles created by agents that pre-date the draft? Or >is there a flag day? What can they assume about a multi-part FAQ? There is no need for any flag day. There is nothing that an implementor using the References header has to do in consequence of our draft that is in any way different from what he was doing beforehand. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvJHX046978 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DDvJUn046977 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvICk046967 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90bc.7421.10d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:16 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDrGr19844 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21271 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II0zuK.F6r@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:51:55 GMT Lines: 80 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >In message <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>7.6.1. Construction of the References header >> >> If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if >> its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters it >> MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message >> identifiers MUST NOT be removed. >I've two problems here which would confuse me as an implementor... >a) does the overall length of 998 include the 12 characters > "References: " or not (and what of the CR LF?). Yes for the References, NO for the CRLF (which is true also of all other places where that magic "998" appears. > Perhaps this might be best expressed as a requirement that when > unfolded into a single line including the keyword and terminating > CRLF that it does not exceed 1000 ? >b) the ones that can't be removed, is that before or after the message > ID has been added ? > I assume it must be after... because otherwise you'd have a > requirement for at four IDs each of which can be 250 long :) Correct. It is applied to "the resulting References header" after you have done all the appending etc from the previous paragraph. > It would be helpful to make that crystal clear. I can suggest some > words, if that's necessary.... If the parent did not have a References header, the content of the new article's References header MUST be inherited from that of the Message-ID header of the parent, otherwise (there already was a References header) it MUST be comprised of the parent's References header followed by CFWS and the Message-ID header content of the parent (subject to trimming as described below). If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if its total length, whether folded or not, and including the header name but not the final CRLF, exceeds 998 chacacters it MUST) then be trimmed, but in such a manner that the first and the last two message identifiers always remain. I am not sure that it really better (and it is certainly longer). >>The essential property of the >> References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be >> preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever >> precede one of its own parents. >nope :( if you're given rubbish (eg an article with existing circular >references) then this statement suggests that you have an obligation to >fix it up. I don't think that's a reasonable requirement. I suggest that >since this is merely meant to be a helpful deduction then it is either >toned down or removed. If all References headers are constructed according to the preceding paragraphs, then circular references cannot arise. If, by some accident, one does arise, then "garbage in, garbage out" applies as usual. But that paragpraph is just a NOTE, so it has no normative effect (and I would prefer it to have been said in USEFOR - see my reply to Forrest). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvHOB046963 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DDvHKv046961 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvFFm046929 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90b0.7421.10b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:04 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDr9H19801 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:09 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21268 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <II0v1q.ExG@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> <zE+$XEB6eCrCFA9q@highwayman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:08:14 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <zE+$XEB6eCrCFA9q@highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >In message <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >>The problem is that (most) relaying agents need to examine this header >>during transit. To upgrade them to accept the folding is not rocket >>science, but it is only now beginning to get done. So at present such >>articles would not propagate well. Note that the problem is with relaying >>agents. I think all current user agents would accept and display them >>properly. >That's far from obvious!! I had to read the code to believe this >statement about "my" client. As it happens, it looks as if it _is_ well >structured enough to accept a folded Newsgroups header field. My expectation was based on a presumption that the code used to display the Newsgroups header would be no different that that used for other headers, where UAs already cope happily with folded headers, either displaying them "as received", of wrapping/refolding them to suit the particular display device. I could well believe that some agents might have a problem when generating a followup, though even then the "naive" approach of just copying the header as received into the new article would be correct. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvHrr046964 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DDvHs2046962 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DDvFjI046928 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-59.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.59]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42ad90b4.7421.10c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:57:08 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5DDrD519832 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:53:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21270 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <II0yLx.F3L@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <07c001c56e59$7ae8a9a0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:25:09 GMT Lines: 47 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <07c001c56e59$7ae8a9a0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> writes: >Charles Lindsey schreef: >> If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and >> if its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters >> it MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message >> identifiers MUST NOT be removed. >The four remaining message identifiers, with their CFWS, can have >a combined length of more than 998 characters. No. Three remaining. That is after the new one has been appended. >I also read in that sentence that you are free to remove comments >out of (such long) References (as long as you keep the message-ids). >So the software might decide to try first to shrink all CFWS to a >single space. Although not clear from the present wording (because of the way "content" has been defined), you can keep the old comments, or throw them away, or even write news ones. Just so long as you keep the msg-ids as directed. I will make sure that is clear. And, of course, we are agreed that such comments are at least SHOULD NOT, and maybe MUST NOT generate. >It would seem more practical (to me) to just drop the oldest Message-IDs >(and their CFWS) from the start of the References field, until there >is room for the Message-ID to be added, but I guess that has all been >discussed before and rejected. I think that newer Message-IDs are more >useful (have more entropy/hold more information) than older ones. No, the first one must be kept, because that one is the root of the tree and may be used by some agents to distinguish between different trees. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DCQnYr023557 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5DCQnoe023556 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:26:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5DCQmEw023542 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-199-224-120-210-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [199.224.120.210]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5DCQegE006864 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42AD7B84.4080201@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:26:44 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: References semantics (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I've not started recording tickets on USEPRO yet; are you raising a new > issue on whether semantics of the References: header should be described > or not in USEFOR (separate from the definition of "followup", which is > closed), or are you wishing to raise an issue on USEPRO? Charles posted text for discussion. Some of that text was for USEPRO. Charles previously posted that there is no way to consider the documents completely independently, and these sections from two documents must be discussed together. I agree. You wrote that you were entering tickets as you saw issues raised on the list. I did not think that excluded USEPRO. Why are you not entering tickets for USEPRO? The point of a ticket system is to record issues so that work on them can occur at time other than when they are raised. Delaying they entry of tickets is completely wrong. If you don't want to discuss USEPRO now, and you don't want to enter tickets, then I think it is appropriate to convince Charles that the documents must be considered independently, and then instruct him not to post USEPRO text until you will allow discussion. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5D03Ych032723 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5D03Yrr032722 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5D03VXp032714 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DhcLf-000290-0q for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:58:39 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.77 ([62.80.58.77]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:58:39 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.77 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:58:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1031 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 02:01:00 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 39 Message-ID: <42ACCCBC.463B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <6Eg937ACICrCFA8H@highwayman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.77 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Richard Clayton wrote: > Whilst we continue down that path then it behoves us to use > the jargon from "mail" in a consistent and user-friendly > manner. This "jargon" isn't limited to news, it's just what uers say everywhere, mail, news, http, etc. Generally this is obvious from the context. When I say "Accept-Language header", then it is the "Accept-Language header field", what else could it be ? Consistency is only important when there is a realistic chance that readers get it wrong. Talking about "header" when it's actually only a "header field" could be dangerous. The shorthand "header line" for "header field line" might be critical, if a reader confuses "header line" (one line) and "header field" (all lines). Other shorthands like "header name" or "header content" or the specific "From header" etc. are IMHO obvious, the long forms are very artificial. There's a time where you say "octet" or "encoded character repertoire" etc. because it's important, but there's also a time where "byte" or "charset" are good enough, and clearer for casual readers not familiar with all details. > The question is what is best going forward. Get the technical essentials right, msg-id and newsgroup-name. > If we are still allowed to disrupt the smooth progress of the > NNTP documents then, in my view, that is what we should do. You could always ask the authors what they think about it. In theory they could modify it in their "48" hours. From my POV it's a minor nit, and the outcome does not necessarily affect what we do in USEFOR. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CJdPOa013069 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CJdPM1013068 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CJdOs3013054 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C4461AFB; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12840-08; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487C061B07; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:30:17 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: References semantics (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <22B9E8CC288E20695DBBE6D2@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I've not started recording tickets on USEPRO yet; are you raising a new issue on whether semantics of the References: header should be described or not in USEFOR (separate from the definition of "followup", which is closed), or are you wishing to raise an issue on USEPRO? --On 10. juni 2005 17:14 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > 2. Since the semantics of the header were deleted from USEFOR, and the > semantics do not appear in this proposed text for USEPRO, there is > no guidance on how user agents should detect or treat non-followups > that have References headers. The implication (as I explicitly stated earlier) is that a reading agent cannot mechanically tell the difference between a followup and a non-followup. So all the rules have to be stated in terms of handling articles with a References header; the term "followup" is only useful in USEFOR when describing how to generate one. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CJdOLA013061 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CJdOYm013060 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CJdNmJ013052 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383A061B41; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12737-09; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31F761B43; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:39:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:59:57 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups folding test Message-ID: <41F21AE138155A14B6E5BC14@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <87d5qt1s7y.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87d5qt1s7y.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 10. juni 2005 20:34 -0700 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: > Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > >> OK, let's try it. > > I don't find these exercises useful. I don't think they really prove what > you're trying to prove. Propagation only measures whether or not the vast > majority of servers reject it; if only a smaller number of servers reject > the message, it could still be a significant problem in practice but won't > show on this sort of a test. Actually I find them useful - but of course one has to be careful to check what they really test. If this test had uncovered significant problems in distribution (query: did anyone see it in group man.test, but NOT in group misc.test, where both where carried?), newsgroup folding would have been dead in this round; it's clear that a standard meant to be useful in present reality has to be a "MUST NOT generate". If it should uncover no significant problem in distribution, we can still come to the conclusion that it should be MUST NOT generate, because they cause other problems. My opinion.... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CD53BT077596 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CD533A077595 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CD52I1077576 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DhS97-000NUX-EL for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:05:01 +0000 Message-ID: <qFmpXeBaBDrCFAON@highwayman.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:53:46 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: Newsgroups folding test (was CFWS in References header) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <fUw$+HKX77P4LMKLuGX+dudQ05> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >I have just submitted an article with the following headers to a server >using INN 2.4.1. It certainly got stored on that server. I invite you all >to see whether it arrived on any of the groups it was sent to the article >Message-ID: <IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> is not currently (almost 2 days later) available on news.demon.co.uk (well connected UK ISP server), news.mit.edu (MIT's server) or news.cam.ac.uk (Cambridge University's server) retention is sufficient for the article to be seen if it managed to reach these servers by any flood-fill route (direct routes would have meant that it arrived in seconds) >It would also be helpful if others who have relaying privileges would try >the same experiment. the existing result speaks for itself "Broken" articles like this don't propagate at all well :( hence any suggestion that folded newsgroups header lines are current state of the art (rather than some future possibility) seems premature - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQqwwWpoAxkTY1oPiEQLlywCeJaivsnmCnJ1VJwsnkt5oTewXOTAAoNKx FqGGGNmXT8ZJOaf6By47wPd4 =SUGv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CCbwHZ067613 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CCbwHO067612 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CCbvUf067600 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DhRiu-000Kk9-LD for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:37:56 +0000 Message-ID: <ZkT1PTBMxCrCFAbX@highwayman.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:36:28 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <rf5$+rnH77$6mNKLKyc+d+y0zU> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >Within USEPRO: > >7.6.1. Construction of the References header > > If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if > its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters it > MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message > identifiers MUST NOT be removed. I've two problems here which would confuse me as an implementor... a) does the overall length of 998 include the 12 characters "References: " or not (and what of the CR LF?). Perhaps this might be best expressed as a requirement that when unfolded into a single line including the keyword and terminating CRLF that it does not exceed 1000 ? b) the ones that can't be removed, is that before or after the message ID has been added ? I assume it must be after... because otherwise you'd have a requirement for at four IDs each of which can be 250 long :) It would be helpful to make that crystal clear. I can suggest some words, if that's necessary.... > NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article to > have more than one parent. happy with this >The essential property of the > References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be > preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever > precede one of its own parents. nope :( if you're given rubbish (eg an article with existing circular references) then this statement suggests that you have an obligation to fix it up. I don't think that's a reasonable requirement. I suggest that since this is merely meant to be a helpful deduction then it is either toned down or removed. - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQqwsTJoAxkTY1oPiEQKxaQCeO0yLxOaDpk0nH6J2Fagy6JCYiYAAnj3c tO3GaR4mSvgtXtxYDlog9MTO =9d7k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CCHiYR060964 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CCHi7T060963 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CCHh6r060950 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DhRPJ-000Ho7-MJ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:17:42 +0000 Message-ID: <zE+$XEB6eCrCFA9q@highwayman.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:16:58 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <nxz$+TEv77$cMOKLg+S+dOKekI> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >IMO, Newsgroups folding would be very useful. cross-posting of articles is seldom a wise thing to do; it doesn't seem to be wise to encourage it any more than at present :-( One of the advantages of not having any folding is that we do not get articles spammed to more than a dozen or so newsgroups. With folding, we will see articles being sent to hundreds of newsgroups at a time on a regular basis ... if that's not an issue for server software, then I don't suppose its any worse for the readers than the current spam situation. However, I'd like to see some comment as to whether dealing with a single article that needs to be inserted into hundreds or thousands of groups at a time is likely to be affect performance, fragility, etc > Newsgroups headers in excess >of 80 characters are very common. yes > They display badly in many user agents; >e.g. there is just a '!' to indicate "rest of line truncated", or they are >are wrapped arbitrarily in the middle of a newsgroup (or between >newsgroups if you are lucky). mayhap >Even where they are displayed "properly" >folded, the user is given the impression that it would be OK to generate >new articles like that, and copy/paste from what is displayed to a new >article might or might not result in a valid header. really ? could you give an example of where this has happened recently? The way in which most user software works, you don't get to copy and paste in truncated lists of newsgroups ... and most people just press the reply button and their software does the right thing with the unmangled copy of the line (rather than the displayed version) >Moreover, this is the only header, within News or Mail, that cannot be >folded, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. > >The problem is that (most) relaying agents need to examine this header >during transit. To upgrade them to accept the folding is not rocket >science, but it is only now beginning to get done. So at present such >articles would not propagate well. Note that the problem is with relaying >agents. I think all current user agents would accept and display them >properly. That's far from obvious!! I had to read the code to believe this statement about "my" client. As it happens, it looks as if it _is_ well structured enough to accept a folded Newsgroups header field. I have limited faith that other code would be as solidly written :( >Therefore, I wish to see as much incentive as possible to get relaying >agents upgraded. MUST accept in our draft is a start. SHOULD NOT generate >would give more incentive than MUST NOT generate, and something even >weaker (as in the article-* drafts) would give more incentive again. "my" client, Turnpike, generates folded References: header fields and so we now have ten years plus experience of this issue. It has been quite common to see our References: mangled by other software -- that assumed that just the first physical line needed to be considered. When this made a mess of threading (or worse) then their users complained and the authors of this other software then complained to us, entirely incorrectly, that the standards had been ignored and we had done the wrong thing :( I too would like to see better handling of incoming material, but years of experience suggest that this is a long haul :( ALSO, the aim here ought to be stated explicitly rather than buried in some subtle usage of SHOULDs or whatever. Some implementors are, I'm afraid, dim :( - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQqwnupoAxkTY1oPiEQLqNgCgv5C27zJHSCXbQ66ay35d3x9rcJUAn32B qNFOS/fLb+M03TvljNCiCViq =RXOu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CBsI2q052671 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5CBsIv2052670 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5CBsGwa052651 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DhR2d-000D1w-KP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:54:15 +0000 Message-ID: <6Eg937ACICrCFA8H@highwayman.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:52:34 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1031 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <Hm3$+Pcr77fJAOKLReX+dOUPoc> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >I think he is upset because we use the term "header" rather than "header >field" and "header name" rather than "field name". > >I would point out that our drafts have always used this terminology (and >have carefully documented that usage). Although I have sympathy for the view that this is continuing the tradition of how "news" documentation is written, I think that's a mistake :( Considerable leverage is gained by defining "news" as a special case of "mail" (albeit, I sometimes wonder if -- when the minutiae is debated at such length -- the gain is entirely worth the pain). Whilst we continue down that path then it behoves us to use the jargon from "mail" in a consistent and user-friendly manner. Although there may be mileage in saying "In this standard we use frooble to mean 'some very long phrase that is hard to keep repeating'" I don't think that it does anything other than create confusion to use a substitute for quite short phrases AND what's more, to use a word "header" that so closely resembles what is being substituted. As a data point, I'm currently in the process of finally editing my PhD thesis (yes, they let you do PhDs even at my advanced age!) and realised that I'd been very sloppy with my own use of the word "header". It took less than an hour to work through the document and fix every mention to the correct 2822 jargon. I really do not think that it reads any worse now that I've done it, nor is it harder to understand for a neophyte. >RFC 1036 used the term "header" (though not consistently, since it >sometimes used "header line" - a quick look revealed no occurrence of >"field", though I have not grepped to confirm it). > >Son-of-1036 used the term "header". > >The NNTP draft, which has just completed its IETF Last Call period, uses the >term "header". of these three points, this is the _only_ one that would concern me (we are, I trust, hoping to reach a situation where only historians consult the other two documents, so who cares what they say?) ... so I checked the documents recently exiting last call, which appear to be: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nntpext-authinfo-09.txt which contains the single phrase "This may be accomplished, for example, by inserting headers in the posted articles ..." ie: trivial change to "header fields" http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nntpext-tls-nntp-06.txt which doesn't contain "header" at all http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nntpext-streaming-05.txt this uses "headers" twice, both of which can easily be changed to "header fields" http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nntpext-base-27.txt this uses "header" extensively in 3.6 (relating to folding) and would require a moderate amount of work :-( though in my view that work is mechanical and should not give rise to debate. >I move that we make no change to this long established practice. You can argue that both alternatives are "long established". The question is what is best going forward. And there the choice appears to be between creating significant consistency in the set of documents that future implementors consult; and in doing some mechanical editing to documents that are not yet set in stone (albeit some are already a long way towards that state). If we are still allowed to disrupt the smooth progress of the NNTP documents then, in my view, that is what we should do. - -- richard @ highwayman . com "Nothing seems the same Still you never see the change from day to day And no-one notices the customs slip away" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQqwiApoAxkTY1oPiEQJxlQCfYW+ouK3qXbqBNaJ6W/UB3EyMh0MAoPyW DEoNgSw/OtsbLPyaPg3MUeHZ =hUEZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BM91pl014506 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BM91mB014505 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BM905X014499 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8211361B51; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:08:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14665-04; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:08:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A1861B4A; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:08:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:08:55 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <F37626CE9E22E92708365DDA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506101025570.29883@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506101025570.29883@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 11:12:25 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> This was an issue that Charles raised off-list, I believe. > > This is the IETF working group tasked with news. There is no "off-list" > issue, either it comes here or it isn't. > >> Good point - if filing tickets in response to issues raised off-list, we >> need to make sure the WG is notified..... > > You are certainly kidding, aren't you? You are actually putting more > emphasis on this trouble ticket system than on the working group? Gee, > MAYBE we ought to mention trouble tickets on the working group that is > supposed to be dealing with them? John, how much does it take to make you see that the door you're trying to bash in is already open? The fact that this issue made it onto the ticket system without the list being notified is an error; it is the list that is the WG. > >> The following comment was added by someone logged in as "ietf": > > That's how you told people to access the tickets. Is it odd that they > do it the way you told them? And that they way you told them is > essentially anonymous? > > Since I pointed out this problem in private and never got any resolution > to it, I'll now bring it up in public. > > Why is this "trouble ticket" system using HTTPS with bogus certificates? > This prevents participation by those who refuse to accept bogus certs. Or > perhaps that was the goal? Because this system is run as a voluntary gift to the IETF by Randy Bush, and he thinks the entire idea of trusting "root certificates" just because they got shipped with your browser is ludicrous. I can see his point. > There is no reason for https. IETF discussions are supposed to be public. > Whatever you post there is supposed to be available to anyone who wants > to see it. There is no security issue: Harald published the > username/password pair we are supposed to use to access the site. Why > https? Take it up with Randy. I wish you luck. > But more important, WHY does the trouble ticket system exist at all? If > Harald wants to keep a tickler file of issues he thinks needs to be > resolved, that's fine. If he wants to publish this list, fine. > > When that list takes on the task of discussing the issues, not so fine. > If Charles's issue is worth discussing, it is worth discussing here. This > "trouble ticket" system is a violation of, if not the letter, the spirit > of IETF working groups, not only in theory, but now in practice. There > should never be a question of "should we tell the WG about this issue > we're discussing on this trouble ticket system?" Never. It should never be > possible to have that question come up. > > Since it has now been demonstrated that the question has to be asked, it > is time to shut down the trouble ticket system and bring discussion back > home. Holding discussions in two places, one of which has limited access, > is wrong. John, I'll be impolite for once. This group has demonstrated conclusively that just having discussions on the list does not lead to the group finishing. A trouble ticket system is one means of helping a group close. Your behaviour is part of the reason the group is not finishing. > And then I run across this gem in "Friday - Ticket status": > >> 1002 USEFOR 6. References - Updates needed >> No discussion; ticket seems clear. > > References has been discussed at length IN THIS LIST, but now that there > is no discussion in the "trouble ticket" system, the answer is clear. You didn't get the point that "6." referred to section 6 in the document, did you? > The only thing that is clear is that this trouble ticket system is being > used to bypass the standard IETF working group process. Either that, or > it creates the marvelous illusion that it is being used to bypass the > process, and either situation is unacceptable. Feel free to leave, John. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGx6PD092171 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BGx3wM092168 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGx0YP092159 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5BGwmF1013010; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5BGwmIC013009; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:58:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <87is0kn9qv.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050611125317.12855A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > > if net.AAAAAARGH is permitted, is it different from net.aaaaaargh, or are > > they the same? > > Pretty much every piece of news software out there will treat them as > different. The "MUST not" in son-of-1036 was motivated by exactly that. Given that existing software overwhelmingly does case-sensitive comparisons, the viable choices are to say that net.AAAAAARGH and net.aaaaaargh are different names (aaargh!) or to forbid net.AAAAAARGH altogether (with the usual "a cooperating subnet can do whatever it wants provided it keeps the curtains closed" escape hatch). Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGdc51090900 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BGdc93090899 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGdaRC090890 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dh8wn-0007ar-Vs for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:35:02 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:35:01 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:35:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: security considerations Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:35:10 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 36 Message-ID: <42AB12BE.553B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506100559.03254.blilly@erols.com> <42A9E134.6120@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506102326.01355.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >>> multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") >> that addresses the RfC 2231 issue. Of course it's abuse, >> 2231 clearly says "don't do this if it's unnecessary", and >> for a boundary it is unnecessary. > [...] > In this case since the boundary delimiter is English text it > could have been language-tagged ('en'next%20part). If an implementation supports RfC 2231 it won't display / spell check / output / ... the MIME boundary value. So I'd still say that it's abuse to try these tricks with a boundary. We could roll our own "updates 2046" to nail it, but for USEFOR a short "security consideration" is good enough: | MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. Note that | applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters like multi-line | paramters on a boundary parameter as defined in [RFC2046] might be | abused to bypass - simple algorithms trying to analyze MIME parts. + naive methods of handling parameters. Two examples: + + Content-Type: + multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") + Content-Type: multipart/digest; + boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy + With that provision I'm willing to accept a "MUST support RfC 2231". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGN6PZ088532 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BGN6qJ088531 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:23:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BGN5RZ088525 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5BGN4UP016932 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:23:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 22586 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 2005 16:23:04 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <41F6F95853F2D4080F0976A1@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:40:09 +0200") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <08f001c56e68$514e5770$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <41F6F95853F2D4080F0976A1@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:23:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87is0kn9qv.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > which leads to another interesting question: > if net.AAAAAARGH is permitted, is it different from net.aaaaaargh, or are > they the same? > I HOPE the answer is that "obviously, they are the same", but I had to > ask... Pretty much every piece of news software out there will treat them as different. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BG4gMw087399 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BG4gK5087398 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BG4emQ087390 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dh8OR-0004UL-F3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:59:31 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:59:31 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:59:31 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:01:48 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 28 Message-ID: <42AB0AEC.23F4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A9D37E.6C1F@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506102321.04465.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > 2110 is obsoleted Okay, I have now updated e.g. <http://purl.net/net/rfc/2110> to show the RfC status (+ abstract + keywords) first instead of directly jumping to the txt files. If anybody used this PURL redirection (except from me ;-) to get RfCs directly he just met Murphy. Do you want a copy of any flames ? > the obsoleting RFC has a multitude of problems (which we > here are not chartered to solve -- byt we can and should > fix the problems in our deliverables). Nonsense like "header" vs. "header field" is irrelevant while simple questions like "what is a newsgroup name" are unclear. At least we have already solved "what is a msg-id" minus the detail of the production names. BTW, I hope you supoprt the... msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" ...style instead of <id-right> which could be almost anything. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BFJQ1m084436 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BFJQO1084435 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BFJPev084429 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dh7h2-0000pD-3O for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:14:40 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:14:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:14:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:18:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 20 Message-ID: <42AB00C9.D54@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> <07c001c56e59$7ae8a9a0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Ruud H.G. van Tol wrote: >> If the resulting References header is excessively long ..........^^^^^^^^^ >> the first and the last two message identifiers MUST NOT be >> removed. > The four remaining message identifiers, with their CFWS, can > have a combined length of more than 998 characters. There are only three, the text talks about the result _after_ adding the parent msg-id. > I also read in that sentence that you are free to remove > comments out of (such long) References (as long as you keep > the message-ids). So the software might decide to try first > to shrink all CFWS to a single space. Good idea, maybe we should say so explicitly. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BFC5pe083528 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BFC58F083527 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BFC2sG083518 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:12:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dh7Zo-00005e-NZ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:07:12 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:07:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:07:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:09:45 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 53 Message-ID: <42AAFEB9.1A93@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <08f001c56e68$514e5770$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <41F6F95853F2D4080F0976A1@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > which leads to another interesting question: > if net.AAAAAARGH is permitted, is it different from > net.aaaaaargh, or are they the same? > I HOPE the answer is that "obviously, they are the > same", but I had to ask... Yes, I'm very much for discussing _relevant_ questions like "what's a newsgroup name ?" or "what's a msg-id ?" instead of wasting time with "what's a FYI 18 header ?". s-o-1036 says: | Newsgroup names MUST not contain uppercase letters (disclaimer about encoded MIME words for I18N removed) NNTP draft 27 offers some wild fantasies about UTF-8 in its <wildmat-exact>, if that's related to reality then it's in a parallel universe far away from my parallel universe: [10,2] | Although this specification allows UTF-8 for newsgroup | names, they SHOULD be restricted to US-ASCII until a | successor to RFC 1036 [RFC1036] standardises another | approach Thanks but no thanks. "Stringprep" is black magic while we seriously consider to support any EST / EDT / UT timestamps. [10.3] | Until such specifications are published, implementations | SHOULD match newsgroup names octet-by-octet. It is | anticipated that any approved scheme will be applied | "at the edges" and therefore octet-by-octet comparison | will continue to apply to most, if not all, uses of | newsgroup names in NNTP. | In the meantime, any implementation experimenting with | UTF-8 newsgroup names is strongly cautioned that a future | specification may require that those names be canonicalized | when used with NNTP in a way that is not compatible with | their experiments. Did I miss an "intended status: experimental" in nntp-27 ? Anyway, apparently we can just do "the right thing", and in the light of this draft I'd say "lowercase a..z0..9+-_". No uppercase, same idea as IDN. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BE7tFF078009 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BE7t6c078008 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BE7q9g077998 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dh6a0-00022k-98 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:03:20 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.33 ([62.80.58.33]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:03:20 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.33 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:03:20 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:01:32 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 25 Message-ID: <42AAEEBC.3962@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> <200506102328.32414.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.33 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > 1. RFC 2822 isn't just "mail". It's a proposed standard. I think we have already seen that there are some issues with its relation to MIME, and its idea of NO-WS-CTL in the header is plain wrong. > 2. the standard definition of "header" appears in FYI 18 Yes, just below "hacker". Please use RfC numbers, it took me two attempts (1938, 1983) to check that you are really talking about 1983. RfC 1983 is obviously obsolete, US-idiosyncratic, and in parts as irrelevant as RfC 1855. It's a simple glossary, it's no "standard terminology", unless you dare say so. Among other obsolete crap it defines "uuencode", that won't force us to remove MIME from USEFOR, or to sanction UUE. TTFN, Frank P.S., TTFN is defined in FYI 18. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BCeGm9060503 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5BCeGAV060502 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5BCeE9e060482 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3412E61B51; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:40:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08403-05; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:40:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7110061B4A; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:40:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:40:09 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Message-ID: <41F6F95853F2D4080F0976A1@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <08f001c56e68$514e5770$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <08f001c56e68$514e5770$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j5BCeF9e060494 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On lørdag, juni 11, 2005 11:25:06 +0200 "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> wrote: > > Russ Allbery schreef: >> Harald Tveit Alvestrand: > >>> 1). uppercase letters must be prohibited in newsgroup names >> >> It's not completely clear to me whether this is the right thing to do, >> since there are some uses of mixed-case newsgroup names in the wild >> already and they don't actually break anything beyond making things >> more confusing. The ftp.isc.org list refuses to add them, but the >> protocol actually has historically supported them. > > I have messages in my test suite that have the same newsgroup name in > different casings in the Newsgroups: header. This was to test a new > bot that fights excessive crossposting. which leads to another interesting question: if net.AAAAAARGH is permitted, is it different from net.aaaaaargh, or are they the same? I HOPE the answer is that "obviously, they are the same", but I had to ask... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B9VKMd089173 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B9VKfk089172 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.34]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B9VJPf089154 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5B9VBxp026370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:31:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <08f001c56e68$514e5770$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126><42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de><29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:25:06 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery schreef: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand: >> 1). uppercase letters must be prohibited in newsgroup names > > It's not completely clear to me whether this is the right thing to do, > since there are some uses of mixed-case newsgroup names in the wild > already and they don't actually break anything beyond making things > more confusing. The ftp.isc.org list refuses to add them, but the > protocol actually has historically supported them. I have messages in my test suite that have the same newsgroup name in different casings in the Newsgroups: header. This was to test a new bot that fights excessive crossposting. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B7j75f051617 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B7j7Sn051616 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.22]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B7j5JD051594 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr2.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5B7iws9033492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:45:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <07c001c56e59$7ae8a9a0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:35:54 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey schreef: > If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and > if its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters > it MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message > identifiers MUST NOT be removed. The four remaining message identifiers, with their CFWS, can have a combined length of more than 998 characters. I also read in that sentence that you are free to remove comments out of (such long) References (as long as you keep the message-ids). So the software might decide to try first to shrink all CFWS to a single space. I would just take the word 'two' out of it. Or maybe change it into 'few'. It would seem more practical (to me) to just drop the oldest Message-IDs (and their CFWS) from the start of the References field, until there is room for the Message-ID to be added, but I guess that has all been discussed before and rejected. I think that newer Message-IDs are more useful (have more entropy/hold more information) than older ones. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B5UKEL096536 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B5UKgD096535 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B5UGjB096477 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5B5U9F1004963; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5B5U8F5004962; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:30:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text In-Reply-To: <200506102328.32414.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050611011413.3617B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > We should be consistent: either use the terminology that is common in > > news, or use the RFC 2822 terminology from mail. > > 1. RFC 2822 isn't just "mail". This has been discussed before. It has indeed, and while a few people think RFC 2822 isn't "just mail", others note that RFC 2822 explicitly says that it applies "within the framework of 'electronic mail' messages". It tries to be more widely applicable, but hasn't entirely succeeded yet. In any case, there is no question that RFC 2822 derives from mail work and that its terminology is that of mail, which is the specific issue being talked about. Please try to stay on topic. > 2. the standard definition of "header" appears in FYI 18, which is > certainly not jst "mail" FYI 18 (aka RFC 1983) gives two definitions for "header", one for the header of a packet and one for the header of an "electronic mail message". Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3clRe078267 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3clA3078266 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3cl0Q078260 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5B3ckTf001722 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 14008 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 2005 03:38:45 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header In-Reply-To: <IHvtF0.A2@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:44:59 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> <IHtu3F.Fr8@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506091725.16806.blilly@erols.com> <IHvtF0.A2@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:45 -0700 Message-ID: <878y1h1s1m.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >> There is a huge difference between documenting specific issues and >> making specific recommendations vs. leaving matters to the opinions of >> non-experts. > I am impressed by your classification of all news-server implementors as > "non-experts". I have no difficulty whatsoever classifying most news server implementors as non-experts. One thing that's become abundantly clear over the years is that most news implementors in general do not bother to read the standards. I'm not sure how to fix this, although getting a new, more modern standard out the door would certainly help. >> Something similar could certainly be used where there are issues >> corresponding to what Mark calls "baby programmer errors", e.g. >> inability to handle msg-ids with a legal 255-octet domain name. There >> is no good reason to be stuck with such an absurdity forever; >> implementers can and should be encouraged to fix the problems "with all >> due speed". Sorry, I'm just completely unenthused about trying to fix this non-problem. It offends people's sense of cleanliness to limit the length of anything. I understand, but that's not a reason to change the standard. Interoperability is more important than that sort of aesthetics. There is no earthly reason why anything needs to generate 251-octet message IDs. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3Z6lA078028 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3Z621078027 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.63]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3Z5Fk078021 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from 24.229.97.149.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net (HELO mail.blilly.com) (24.229.97.149) by smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2005 23:35:05 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,191,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="45771260:sNHT21879508" Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3Yt2v009187(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:34:55 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3YsvC009186(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:34:55 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:34:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506091725.16806.blilly@erols.com> <IHvtF0.A2@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvtF0.A2@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506102334.53487.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 14:44, Charles Lindsey wrote: > I am impressed by your classification of all news-server implementors as > "non-experts". I have not done so and I do not appreciate your false assertion. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3YxeU078011 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3YxOF078010 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3YwJc078004 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5B3Yvwj013809 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:34:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 13936 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 2005 03:34:57 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroups folding test In-Reply-To: <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:11:45 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:34:57 -0700 Message-ID: <87d5qt1s7y.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > OK, let's try it. I don't find these exercises useful. I don't think they really prove what you're trying to prove. Propagation only measures whether or not the vast majority of servers reject it; if only a smaller number of servers reject the message, it could still be a significant problem in practice but won't show on this sort of a test. Furthermore, most transit servers do nearly no syntax validation of the article whatsoever, or only the most minimal amount possible, so this sort of test proves that all the new syntax we want to add works fine, also proves that all the new syntax we don't want to add works fine, and additionally proves that it's just fine to use "MEZT" as your time zone. :) You're lucky transit servers check even Message-ID and Date. So proving that things can propagate really is pretty meaningless. The real test is how many software packages might have trouble when trying to read the message, trying to construct followups, trying to post a similar message back into a newsgroup, trying to archive that message, trying to gate it into mail, etc. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3XoPW077943 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3Xocf077942 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.63]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3XoVT077936 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from 24.229.97.149.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net (HELO mail.blilly.com) (24.229.97.149) by smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2005 23:33:49 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,191,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="45770990:sNHT23710128" Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3XkZf009166(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:33:46 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3XjSR009165(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:33:46 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1031 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:33:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506102333.42718.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 14:22, Charles Lindsey wrote: > I think he is upset because we use the term "header" rather than "header > field" and "header name" rather than "field name". > > I would point out that our drafts have always used this terminology (and > have carefully documented that usage). Sample quotes from draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-00.txt: User agents SHOULD support on receipt and MAY generate MIME extension header fields, The "Message-ID:" field contains a single unique message identifier. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3Sbd5077647 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3Sb9W077646 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.63]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3SbqL077640 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from 24.229.97.149.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net (HELO mail.blilly.com) (24.229.97.149) by smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2005 23:28:36 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,191,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="45769971:sNHT22073846" Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3SYUV009070(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:28:34 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3SXRO009069(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:28:33 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:28:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506102328.32414.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 12:50, Henry Spencer wrote: > We should be consistent: either use the terminology that is common in > news, or use the RFC 2822 terminology from mail. 1. RFC 2822 isn't just "mail". This has been discussed before. 2. the standard definition of "header" appears in FYI 18, which is certainly not jst "mail" Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3QA5X077470 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3QADX077469 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:26:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.63]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3Q9Mq077462 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from 24.229.97.149.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net (HELO mail.blilly.com) (24.229.97.149) by smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2005 23:26:09 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,191,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="45769438:sNHT22083370" Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3Q4nM009049(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:26:06 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3Q2bX009048(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:26:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: security considerations Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:26:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506100559.03254.blilly@erols.com> <42A9E134.6120@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A9E134.6120@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506102326.01355.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 14:51, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > Or Content-Type: > > multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") > > Yes, that addresses the RfC 2231 issue. Of course it's abuse, > 2231 clearly says "don't do this if it's unnecessary", and for > a boundary it is unnecessary. [...] In this case since the boundary delimiter is English text it could have been language-tagged ('en'next%20part). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3LI8q076559 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B3LIDr076558 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.63]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B3LH6a076550 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from 24.229.97.149.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net (HELO mail.blilly.com) (24.229.97.149) by smtp04.mrf.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2005 23:21:16 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,191,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="45768399:sNHT22485584" Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3LE3S009026(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:21:14 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5B3L7sw009025(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:21:13 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:21:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A9D37E.6C1F@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A9D37E.6C1F@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506102321.04465.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 13:53, Frank Ellermann wrote: > This <quote Bruce> "hacker slang" <unquote> is also defined > in RfC 2110: 2110 is obsoleted, and the obsoleting RFC has a multitude of problems (which we here are not chartered to solve -- byt we can and should fix the problems in our deliverables). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B36WTd075443 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B36WCg075442 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:06:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B36Uks075431 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgwFx-0001k6-RY for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:01:57 +0200 Received: from du-001-140.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.140]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:01:57 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-140.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:01:57 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroups folding test Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:03:29 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 12 Message-ID: <42AA5481.2F3C@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-140.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> > Subject: Testing folded newsgroups. > Message-ID: <IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> I don't see it on news.clara.net (about 0300Z), it arrived on Google <http://purl.net/net/msgid/IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> - but there you don't see the Path :-( Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L8XG069314 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B2L8M8069312 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L47O069291 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-180.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.180]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42aa494d.6e81.34f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:15:41 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5B2CCT03254 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21223 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Newsgroups folding test (was CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <IHvunL.HH@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:11:45 GMT Lines: 43 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> My understanding was that INN was now accepting folded Newsgroups >> headers when relaying. >Ah, yes, it's done that since 2.4. OK, let's try it. I have just submitted an article with the following headers to a server using INN 2.4.1. It certainly got stored on that server. I invite you all to see whether it arrived on any of the groups it was sent to, and especially indications of how long it took and the route it took would be interesting, since propagation using only INN 2.4+ servers may be rather slow. If you do not see it in the named groups, it might be worth looking to see if your server has filed it under "junk". Newsgroups: man.test, uk.test, misc.test, de.test Path: chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Testing folded newsgroups. Message-ID: <IHvstu.37@clerew.man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:32:18 GMT Lines: 14 It would also be helpful if others who have relaying privileges would try the same experiment. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L8Kn069313 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B2L83x069309 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L5wZ069293 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-180.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.180]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42aa494c.6e81.34e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:15:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5B2CC503250 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:12:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21222 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1030 Re: backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <IHvtts.D8@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> <94871903A9251E6D2A11596D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:53:52 GMT Lines: 31 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <94871903A9251E6D2A11596D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I have created ticket #1030 with this text. >> I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative >> references and published extensions, and that any deviations are >> clearly indicated via the use of Implementation notes of the general >> form suggested here by Mark Crispin: >> http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html >> and that use of BCP 14 imperatives in conjunction with any such >> deviations in fact conform to the usage requirements in BCP 14. Although possibly useful in some situations, such a blanket solution is unlikely to be helpful. Each case needs to be considered on its merits. If you have specific examples to suggest, then we can do so. But from the examples of Mark Crispin's Implementation notes that I have seen, they tend to be of the form "This is how Mark Crispin views this problem, and he does not wish to be confused by the facts adduced by those who have actual experience of it". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L805069315 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5B2L8Tn069310 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5B2L4mk069292 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-180.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.180]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42aa494e.6e81.350 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:15:42 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5B2CBC03240 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:12:11 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21221 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <IHvtF0.A2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> <IHtu3F.Fr8@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506091725.16806.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:44:59 GMT Lines: 53 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506091725.16806.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Thu June 9 2005 13:04, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> If that is correct, I would have no particular problem with it. But it is, >> in essence, what the article-* drafts were trying to say (they were >> certainly not saying "do whatever you please", any more than Mark was >> saying that). >There is a huge difference between documenting specific issues and >making specific recommendations vs. leaving matters to the opinions >of non-experts. I am impressed by your classification of all news-server implementors as "non-experts". >Something similar could certainly be used where there are issues >corresponding to what Mark calls "baby programmer errors", e.g. >inability to handle msg-ids with a legal 255-octet domain name. There >is no good reason to be stuck with such an absurdity forever; implementers >can and should be encouraged to fix the problems "with all due speed". The restriction of msg-ids t0 250 characters is not a problem to be fixed "with all due speed". It was extensively discussed by the NNTP working group and it was discussed in this WG also. It is now hard coded into the NNTP-draft which has just completed its IETF Last Call (I note that you did not object to it). It is a Done Deal. >No assumption necessary; comments have always been legal in RFC 724/733/822 >structured fields -- any supposed "UA" that doesn't handle them properly is >not conformant. Some software is crappy; fact of life. Absent other >considerations, that's no reason to degrade specifications to the level of >crappiness of the lowest common denominator. Taking note of the lowest common denominator is, in practice, the way things often work in the Real World. It is more politely expressed as "being liberal". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ANxuYd061138 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ANxuK1061137 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay3.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay3.mail.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.165]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ANxtPb061131 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graham.drabble@lineone.net) Received: from smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.247]) by relay3.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DgtPm-0001VQ-CJ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:59:54 +0100 Received: from stu325.sjc.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.63.75] helo=ID-77355.user.dfncis.de) by smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DgtPm-0004g0-3z for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:59:54 +0100 Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (129.67.63.75) with news-to-mail ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:48:28 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? From: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <Xns967174E0F812grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> <8764wmi2vd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:48:28 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns967283837E40grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 10 Jun 2005 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote in news:8764wmi2vd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu: > > Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> writes: >> I came accross a whole bunch of articles that had the form: > >> Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:33:30 +Z > >> This was due to a badly configured moderation bot so it was >> affecting all the posts into the group. > > They were so close. Without the +, that would have actually been > valid. Apparantly they were missing a '%' and had the wrong case Z. The point that I was trying to make is that any software that is actually going to work on Usenet needs to be able to cope with pretty much anything in there. Trying to define what all the possible things that could be used is going to be futile so we are probably best off keeping the list short and saying something about how to handle the crap. My suggestion is to have all letters as SHOULD NOT generate (there's no need for them, the numeric format works just as well if not better) and then don't explicitly say how to treat them. Wa can then say that any time with an unparceable offset (either because they use GMT, UT, EDT etc or because they've mangled it in some new way) should be treated as +0000. This means that GMT (which appears to be the most common) still gets parsed the same way and junk is handled consistently. -- Graham Drabble http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh1646/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ANduDf059663 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ANdu6L059662 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.161]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ANdt3O059655 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graham.drabble@lineone.net) Received: from smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.247]) by relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dgt6Q-0002jY-7F for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:39:54 +0100 Received: from stu325.sjc.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.63.75] helo=ID-77355.user.dfncis.de) by smtp1.herald.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Dgt6Q-0003cV-3z for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:39:54 +0100 Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (129.67.63.75) with news-to-mail ; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:29:20 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) From: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:29:20 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns96724F9B8FC9grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 10 Jun 2005 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in news:IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk: > The problem is that (most) relaying agents need to examine this > header during transit. To upgrade them to accept the folding is > not rocket science, but it is only now beginning to get done. So > at present such articles would not propagate well. How much of a problem is this going to cause big sites? I imagine the extra overhead of unfolding the header could be significant but have no data to go on. -- Graham Drabble http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh1646/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ALaQMY051789 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ALaQs0051788 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ALaP2X051782 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ALaFgt010055 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42AA0808.1090501@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:37:12 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9C324.9080907@mibsoftware.com> <D40BD822D257B40B52413D3D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <D40BD822D257B40B52413D3D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > > --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 12:43:16 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" > <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > >>> The Editors are well aware of many matters of form, boilerplate, >>> division >>> of texts between USEFOR and USEPOR, and other nitpicks, etc. remain >>> to be >>> done. But it is considered more important at the moment to get the >>> technical issues correct, so that at least each of USEFOR, USEPRO and >>> USEAGE can be made technically consistent. >>> >> >> When can we expect to see them in the ticket system? There is no sense >> using an issues tracking system for only some of the important issues. >> >> 80% of the benefit comes only by ensuring that it accurately represents >> all open issues. > > > I create tickets as I see specific issues raised on the mailing list. > There's no sense in raising a ticket to say that "organization" should > really be spelled "organisation" (or vice versa). Being only 9 weeks out from a deadline in a group that works this slowly, means there is no reason for delay in finding and fixing even the little stuff. (Or do you admit the 9 week deadline is a deathmarch anyway?) Yes, creating a ticket can be more work than fixing a problem, but if you STILL don't want to fix the problem now, then you have to create a ticket. When you use a Quality Control system only half way, you get all the costs, and nearly none of the benefits. Don't bother. If you don't want lots of little tickets, can I can suggest to create "Meta" tickets for things you consider "nuisance", and keep tacking on everything you can think of as amendments. It would be less work than having multiple people raise the same issue, and have to respond 3 times with "Oh, that's not in the ticket system, but trust us, we'll get to it.") If you don't have everything in the ticket system, there is no way to use it to get an idea of the work remaining. If someone had everything in the ticket system, and saw how much work on average to close each issue when you use one-man one-vote consensus, you'd realize that 9 weeks is a deathmarch. Or it isn't. How can you tell? Further, are you certain that these things you want to postpone to cleanup are merely nuisance? 1. If there are any documents misclassified as normative/informative, or there are wrong cross-references, that isn't a nuisance problem. Both change how you read the document, and can't be that hard to get right. 2. You are asking volunteers to review this work. They will stop when they see problems like that, because they know it isn't ready for review. (Also, I agree with John's comments about the mickey-mouse self-signed SSL cert. Doesn't everyone get all the phishing attempts that I get. I am very careful about accepting CAs.) I also agree with John's comments that the ticket system must not be used for discussion. It's just an accounting system. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ALE8Bq049791 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ALE8l3049790 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ALE72E049782 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ALE3BR003318 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42AA02CD.30401@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:14:53 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > 7.6.1. Construction of the References header > > The following procedure is to be used whenever some previous article > (the "parent") is to be referred to in the References header (F- > 3.2.1) of a new article, whether in the course of generating a > followup or for some other reason (e.g. the later parts of a > multipart posting such as a FAQ, or the later parts of a > message/partial as suggested in [RFC 2046]). 1. This text appears under "duties of a followup agent." You have not shown text in USEPRO that lets non-followups have a references header, unless they were generated by a followup agent. Non-followups cannot be generated by a followup agent, because follow up agent is defined as software used for preparing and posting followups. I raised this issue at the time of the poll, and was told that the definition of followup was getting set, and my concerns would be addressed within the revisions to USEPRO. I find that my concerns were not addressed at all. 2. Since the semantics of the header were deleted from USEFOR, and the semantics do not appear in this proposed text for USEPRO, there is no guidance on how user agents should detect or treat non-followups that have References headers. > NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article to > have more than one parent. The essential property of the > References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be > preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever > precede one of its own parents. 3. Specifying what something is not is by no means a definition of "The essential property" of anything. 4. RFC2119 language is not called for and is not required. (E.g. if there were a specification of the semantics References header, all the "MUST" formulations are not needed. The draft should specify that the appearance of a references header means "blah blah" and then the implementors will know how to do the right thing. Specify MUST constructions and it becomes ambiguous... 5. What should an implementor of a user Agent make of the 7.6 language regarding the References header? What can that implementor assume about articles created by agents that pre-date the draft? Or is there a flag day? What can they assume about a multi-part FAQ? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AL4jBV048916 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AL4j5o048915 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AL4j7b048906 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5AL4fF1028812; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5AL4eRo028811; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <878y1i6ifv.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610165951.28760A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Russ Allbery wrote: > The problem is that those articles probably shouldn't propagate in a group > named "junk" and junk will often be full of articles that weren't posted > to that group because of what junk is for. So it shouldn't be treated the > same as a normal newsgroup. However, this is *largely* an internal issue within a news server, not something that appears "on the wire". It's reasonable for us to try to stay out of the way of such internal conventions, but exactly how they work is not our problem. Reserving a few name components, and discouraging single-component names, is not an unreasonable thing to do as part of USEFOR, but trying to do it in the grammar is a mistake. Even the most grammar-intensive RFCs have accompanying text which adds restrictions and constraints. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AL2tKB048811 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AL2tB2048810 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AL2slc048804 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:02:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5AL2rl7020310 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:02:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 27896 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 21:02:53 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <D40BD822D257B40B52413D3D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:53:13 +0200") References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9C324.9080907@mibsoftware.com> <D40BD822D257B40B52413D3D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: <87zmty53ia.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: >> When can we expect to see them in the ticket system? There is no sense >> using an issues tracking system for only some of the important issues. >> >> 80% of the benefit comes only by ensuring that it accurately represents >> all open issues. > I create tickets as I see specific issues raised on the mailing list. > There's no sense in raising a ticket to say that "organization" should > really be spelled "organisation" (or vice versa). Agreed. Let's not go overboard here. It's pointless to spend much time trying to fix typos and the like at this stage; we should do one pass once the draft is in reasonably final shape. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKt2vV048213 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:55:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AKt2xU048212 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKt1o5048196 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5AKt1d3023679 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:55:01 -0700 Received: (qmail 26826 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 20:55:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <42A9EC10.1E6B@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:37:52 +0200") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A9EC10.1E6B@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: <878y1i6ifv.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> In practice, people post to control and junk directly, but this often >> doesn't really do what one wants > On GMaNe posting to "junk" is my way to check a problem, if it appears > immediately the server is fine, and mail2news is in trouble - I do this > only if a test in gmane.test failed. The problem is that those articles probably shouldn't propagate in a group named "junk" and junk will often be full of articles that weren't posted to that group because of what junk is for. So it shouldn't be treated the same as a normal newsgroup. >> Creating groups by that name with control messages is a bad idea and >> shouldn't happen. > Yes, but these details are IMHO a case for USEPRO. Trying to exclude > single-component names in the USEFOR ABNF isn't the best way to address > it. I think I agree. >> hard to work around if you want to retain the standard spool structure > Adding one special character like "#" to the article numbers would avoid > all potential problems. That's not retaining the standard spool structure, and doing that will break software that expects the standard spool structure. As soon as you deviate from the standard spool structure there are innumerable ways of fixing the problem, but that's not the point. >> alt.2600 is the most famous example -- it gets away with this even on >> older news servers since there's no newsgroup named "alt". > Now that's bad, if our syntax says "not only digits" it will be used > elsewhere, e.g. in my "minimalistic" variant of the two news-nntp-uri > drafts. Right, that's why it's an arguable case. >> We're reserving it for the typical IETF "use in example" reasons. That >> will be new with our draft. > Was #1021 your ticket ? RT only says that Alexey added it. No. But example had been in our draft for eons, I thought. If not, my bad memory; we've certainly talked about it lots before. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKrJeE048090 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AKrJJl048089 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKrI6m048081 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAC361AFD; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22499-05; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:53:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC7761AFB; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:53:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:53:13 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <D40BD822D257B40B52413D3D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42A9C324.9080907@mibsoftware.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A9C324.9080907@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 12:43:16 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: >> The Editors are well aware of many matters of form, boilerplate, division >> of texts between USEFOR and USEPOR, and other nitpicks, etc. remain to be >> done. But it is considered more important at the moment to get the >> technical issues correct, so that at least each of USEFOR, USEPRO and >> USEAGE can be made technically consistent. >> > > When can we expect to see them in the ticket system? There is no sense > using an issues tracking system for only some of the important issues. > > 80% of the benefit comes only by ensuring that it accurately represents > all open issues. I create tickets as I see specific issues raised on the mailing list. There's no sense in raising a ticket to say that "organization" should really be spelled "organisation" (or vice versa). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKk1CO047584 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AKk1QL047583 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AKjx99047574 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgqJR-0001BM-Se for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:41:09 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.151 ([62.80.58.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:41:09 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.151 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:41:09 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Guaranteed MUSTard (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:39:19 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 68 Message-ID: <42A9FA77.79A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.151 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: {USEFOR] > references = "References:" SP [CFWS] msg-id *(CFWS msg-id ) > [CFWS] CRLF ACK. I'd prefer a msg-id-list version for aesthetical reasons, same idea as for <newsgroup-list> or <path-list>: references = "References:" SP msg-id-list CRLF msg-id-list = [CFWS] *(msg-id CFWS) msg-id [CFWS] In that order the concept of at least one last msg-id is clear, reflecting the construction algorithm as good as possible. [USEPRO] > The followup MUST (in accordance with the definition of that > term) have a References header referring to its precursor, > constructed in accordance with section 7.6.1 below. > NOTE: That "MUST" is to be contrasted with the weaker > recomendation using "SHOULD" applied, in [RFC 2822], to the > generation of "replies" in email. Moreover, in Netnews, > there is no expectation of any In-Reply-To header in a > followup. I'd replace this convoluted MUSTard by a simple statement: The followup has a References header referring to its precursor, constructed in accordance with section 7.6.1 below. > in the course of generating a followup or for some other > reason (e.g. the later parts of a multipart posting such > as a FAQ, or the later parts of a message/partial as > suggested in [RFC 2046]) I'd remove these irrelevant examples where other algorithms might also work, the most important "other reason" is a reply, not limited to Followup-To: poster. So that would be: in the course of generating a followup or for some other reason (e.g. a mail reply). > NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article > to have more than one parent. Then don't talk about it, or add the In-Reply-To blurb here: NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article to have more than one parent. In Netnews, there is no expectation of any In-Reply-To header in a followup > The essential property of the References header, guaranteed > by the procedure above and to be preserved in any future > extension, is that no article can ever precede one of its > own parents. There is no "guarantee", this is bad advice for implementors. My UA cannot handle self-referencing articles, and Harald has reported another case, where this "guarantee" simply crashed. The essential property of the References is a msg-id-list, and it's unnecesary to repeat it in USEPRO. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJeq9t042666 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AJeqDU042665 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJeoKG042657 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgpIb-0001Y8-6W for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:36:13 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.151 ([62.80.58.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:36:13 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.151 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:36:13 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:37:52 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 68 Message-ID: <42A9EC10.1E6B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.151 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > In practice, people post to control and junk directly, > but this often doesn't really do what one wants On GMaNe posting to "junk" is my way to check a problem, if it appears immediately the server is fine, and mail2news is in trouble - I do this only if a test in gmane.test failed. > Creating groups by that name with control messages is a > bad idea and shouldn't happen. Yes, but these details are IMHO a case for USEPRO. Trying to exclude single-component names in the USEFOR ABNF isn't the best way to address it. > not really a protocol issue; it's more a USEAGE issue. Also fine, so it doesn't affect USEFOR. [component name 1*DIGIT] > necessary to retain backward compatibility with any news > server that uses the traditional directory structure for > the news spool, since the group example.foo.600 and article > 600 in example.foo both want to use the same file name. Okay, then we need some ldh-string magic to exclude 1*DIGIT. We could use the ambiguous grammar style as for <id-quote>: c-name = *c-text c-okay *c-text c-text = DIGIT / c-okay c-okay = ALPHA / "-" / "_" > hard to work around if you want to retain the standard spool > structure Adding one special character like "#" to the article numbers would avoid all potential problems. Actually I don't care how we solve it, but don't mention "14" or I'd scream... <g> > alt.2600 is the most famous example -- it gets away with > this even on older news servers since there's no newsgroup > named "alt". Now that's bad, if our syntax says "not only digits" it will be used elsewhere, e.g. in my "minimalistic" variant of the two news-nntp-uri drafts. >> From a user's POV control.all behaves like r/o NGs. > On what server are you seeing control.all? Sorry, I meant "stuff below control", e.g. control.cancel.de > .all is a wildcard in C News and is equivalent to .* Yes, that's exactly what I meant. >> I've never heard of "example" being reserved. > We're reserving it for the typical IETF "use in example" > reasons. That will be new with our draft. Was #1021 your ticket ? RT only says that Alexey added it. If that's a new idea it's fine - I forgot the URL with the unofficial "TLH registry", so I hope you checked this. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJP0rl041892 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AJP0rw041891 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kosat.consultit.no (kosat.consultit.no [80.203.206.234]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJOw7g041875 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (182.80-202-209.nextgentel.com [80.202.209.182]) by kosat.consultit.no (Postfix) with SMTP id 59D0082F1 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:27:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:21:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:21:06 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language Message-ID: <20050610192058.GA13124@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> [2005-06-10 15:09:45 +0200]: > Your language is insulting to the editors I failed to see any insulting language in that message. I failed to see anything wrong with it at all... Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJ3N6R039661 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AJ3N2R039660 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:03:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJ3MNr039646 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5AJ3GZI086756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506101113000.29883@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Your language is insulting ... >If you continue in this vein, I will remove your posting rights to this >list. I found Bruce's summary of the situation to be remarkably correct and a lot less insulting that some of the other participants who continue unwarned. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJ2m4R039594 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AJ2mO2039593 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AJ2lGf039587 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5AJ2kBu016514 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 23041 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 19:02:46 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) In-Reply-To: <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:42:41 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:46 -0700 Message-ID: <87is0m6nmx.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > IMO, Newsgroups folding would be very useful. Newsgroups headers in > excess of 80 characters are very common. They display badly in many user > agents; e.g. there is just a '!' to indicate "rest of line truncated", > or they are are wrapped arbitrarily in the middle of a newsgroup (or > between newsgroups if you are lucky). Surely this is a quality of implementation issue. It's trivial to wrap the newsgroups header for display; it's not like it's hard to parse. My user agent does this without any difficulty. > Even where they are displayed "properly" folded, the user is given the > impression that it would be OK to generate new articles like that, and > copy/paste from what is displayed to a new article might or might not > result in a valid header. Surely this too is a quality of implementation issue; my user agent removes folding and whitespace from the header when posting. > Moreover, this is the only header, within News or Mail, that cannot be > folded, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. Er, no. Message-ID cannot be folded, Control cannot be folded, Date will probably break in practice if folded, Followup-To similarly cannot be folded, and that's just off the top of my head. And I'm still concerned that folding Path might not actually work in practice, although it does work with the software I personally have checked. > Note that the problem is with relaying agents. I think all current user > agents would accept and display them properly. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. > Therefore, I wish to see as much incentive as possible to get relaying > agents upgraded. MUST accept in our draft is a start. SHOULD NOT > generate would give more incentive than MUST NOT generate, and something > even weaker (as in the article-* drafts) would give more incentive > again. If a new RFC differs from existing practice by too much, more requirements that differ from existing practice cease to be motivation to change software and become motivation to just ignore the document. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIsD4D039056 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AIsDmW039055 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIsB47039048 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgoZa-00030P-2C for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:49:42 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.151 ([62.80.58.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:49:42 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.151 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:49:42 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: security considerations Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:51:32 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 48 Message-ID: <42A9E134.6120@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> <42A907F1.15C4@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506100559.03254.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.151 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >> The security problem is the simple / naive scanner supposed >> to catch this malware _before_ it meets any software from >> Redmond. > Yes, because it botched MIME parsing. In a simple script looking at the first 50 lines of the body I decided to use a heuristics instead of proper parsing for the question "is there (maybe) a B64 part starting with TV or UE ?" In that case it would delete the rest of the mail, that's not completely uncritical, and "popstop.cmd" is a published script. > The parsing issue applies in general, and broken "parsing" > leads to problems. Or to heuristics. The problem with RfC 2046 is that it doesn't mention these issues. >> maybe an example: >> boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; charset=utf-8 Bad example, a multipart has no charset, corrected version at <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format:28712:raw> > Or Content-Type: > multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") Yes, that addresses the RfC 2231 issue. Of course it's abuse, 2231 clearly says "don't do this if it's unnecessary", and for a boundary it is unnecessary. But they forgot a very critical MUST NOT in 2046 / 2231. And with both examples it should be clear that it's not only a 2231 problem. The complete line is too long (81), the body (67) is okay, we could fold it in the "security considerations": Content-Type: multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy Only the puzzle, no solution, I want readers to think about it. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXC8O037667 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AIXB6K037666 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXATl037649 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-200.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.200]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a9daf7.175b6.1fe for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:55 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5AINHk29539 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:23:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21204 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <IHvnr5.MHs@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:42:41 GMT Lines: 46 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >IMHO, and speaking for myself-as-participant only: >Realistically, either newsgroups folding is useful or it is not. >If it is not, there is no incentive to implement it no matter what the >standard says. >If it is useful, there is incentive to implement it. >If it is very useful, someone might even be bothered to write an 1-page RFC >saying "Newsgroup folding is now permitted". IMO, Newsgroups folding would be very useful. Newsgroups headers in excess of 80 characters are very common. They display badly in many user agents; e.g. there is just a '!' to indicate "rest of line truncated", or they are are wrapped arbitrarily in the middle of a newsgroup (or between newsgroups if you are lucky). Even where they are displayed "properly" folded, the user is given the impression that it would be OK to generate new articles like that, and copy/paste from what is displayed to a new article might or might not result in a valid header. Moreover, this is the only header, within News or Mail, that cannot be folded, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. The problem is that (most) relaying agents need to examine this header during transit. To upgrade them to accept the folding is not rocket science, but it is only now beginning to get done. So at present such articles would not propagate well. Note that the problem is with relaying agents. I think all current user agents would accept and display them properly. Therefore, I wish to see as much incentive as possible to get relaying agents upgraded. MUST accept in our draft is a start. SHOULD NOT generate would give more incentive than MUST NOT generate, and something even weaker (as in the article-* drafts) would give more incentive again. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXC8D037675 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AIXCIW037674 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXBe4037652 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-200.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.200]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a9daf8.175b6.1ff for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5AINIm29547 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:23:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21205 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <IHvp5t.MLJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:13:05 GMT Lines: 124 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >In reviewing the thread, the text that seems to come closest to capturing >the (VERY) rough consensus of the group is: > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of > an earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a > References header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup > articles may also use a References header). >I have also noted that there is no discernible consensus for the text >Charles suggested addition to the top of the References section (attempting >to explain what References is used for); it will not be added as part of >this decision. I regret that there will now be no introductory text to the References header (whether mine, or some other variant). I also regret that there will be no clear statement of the semantics of this header, other than what can be gleaned from the process for constructing it, as set out in USEFOR (Forrest was anxious to have such semantics included). I would have suggested a text such as the following: | The list is composed of message identifiers of ancestors of the | current article, sorted so that no article precedes any of its own | ancestors. It SHOULD include both the oldest ancestor and the | immediate parent of the current article, even if some of the | intermediate ones are omitted. >Unless there are technical issues that have not been raised before, this is >the instruction from the WG chairs to the editor of the USEFOR document, >and the subject of the definition of "followup" is now closed. In that case, I believe the following represents the definitive result of our deliberations: Definitions (for inclusion in USEFOR or USEPRO as appropriate). A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup articles may also use a References header). A "followup agent" is a combination of reading agent and posting agent that aids in the preparation and posting of a followup. Within USEFOR: 3.2.1 References The References header is the same as that specified in Section 3.6.4 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2 and those listed below: o The updated <msg-id> construct defined in Section 3.1.3 MUST be used. o Message identifiers MUST be separated with CFWS. o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. references = "References:" SP [CFWS] msg-id *(CFWS msg-id ) [CFWS] CRLF | The process of generating a References header is set out in [USEPRO]. Within USEPRO: 7.6. Duties of a Followup Agent ....... 4. The followup MUST (in accordance with the definition of that term) have a References header referring to its precursor, constructed in accordance with section 7.6.1 below. NOTE: That "MUST" is to be contrasted with the weaker recomendation using "SHOULD" applied, in [RFC 2822], to the generation of "replies" in email. Moreover, in Netnews, there is no expectation of any In-Reply-To header in a followup. 7.6.1. Construction of the References header The following procedure is to be used whenever some previous article (the "parent") is to be referred to in the References header (F- 3.2.1) of a new article, whether in the course of generating a followup or for some other reason (e.g. the later parts of a multipart posting such as a FAQ, or the later parts of a message/partial as suggested in [RFC 2046]). If the parent did not have a References header, the content of the new article's References header MUST be inherited from that of the Message-ID header of the parent, otherwise (there already was a References header) it MUST be comprised of the parent's References header (subject to trimming as described below) followed by CFWS and the Message-ID header content of the parent. If the resulting References header is excessively long it MAY (and if its total length, whether folded or not, exceeds 998 chacacters it MUST) then be trimmed, but the first and the last two message identifiers MUST NOT be removed. NOTE: There is no provision in this standard for an article to have more than one parent. The essential property of the References header, guaranteed by the procedure above and to be preserved in any future extension, is that no article can ever precede one of its own parents. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXB4r037659 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AIXBEB037658 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIXAkM037648 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-200.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.200]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a9daf5.175b6.1fc for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:53 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5AINGv29535 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:23:16 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21203 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHvMu2.MD0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> <IHtrrI.F8s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <54106F133056B9446EB13AB0@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:22:50 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <54106F133056B9446EB13AB0@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 16:14:05 +0000 Charles Lindsey ><chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> I think everyone agrees MUST accept. >> >> The issue is SHOULD NOT vs MUST NOT for generate. >Charles, may I remind you again: >the current wording (2.1) is MAY accept. >What wording change do you propose? In relation to the particular matter of <obs-phrase>, I wish to see MUST accept. I could live with either of SHOULD NOT or MUST NOT for generate. My preference is that we should use SHOULD NOT/MUST NOT consistently for the three cases of <obs-phrase>, <obs-zone> (or whatever part of it we adopt) and Newsgroups folding, if it is possible to do so (it might not be, because their priorities are somewhat different). If you press me for an explicit choice, then it would be for SHOULD NOT in all three cases. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIOuu1037081 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AIOuIZ037080 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AIOtED037074 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-200.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.200]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a9daf6.175b6.1fd for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:54 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5AINJ329553 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:23:19 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21206 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1031 backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities Message-ID: <IHvsE0.Mpx@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:22:48 GMT Lines: 46 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: I hope I have attached the proper ticket number to this reply. >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: >> I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative >> references and published extensions... >> The following sections need to be changed because of that - details >> to be discussed when the basic change is accepted... >Personally, I find it impossible to evaluate this suggestion without >more detail. The suggestion as phrased is nearly meaningless, given >that there is no clear indication of what is to be changed or why. I think he is upset because we use the term "header" rather than "header field" and "header name" rather than "field name". I would point out that our drafts have always used this terminology (and have carefully documented that usage). RFC 1036 used the term "header" (though not consistently, since it sometimes used "header line" - a quick look revealed no occurrence of "field", though I have not grepped to confirm it). Son-of-1036 used the term "header". The NNTP draft, which has just completed its IETF Last Call period, uses the term "header". I move that we make no change to this long established practice. NOTE that there is a technical problem with the term "header content" as defined in USEFOR. I have suggested to Ken that he changes it to "header body" throughout USEFOR, and I will define a term "semantic content" (abbrevieted to "content") to cover the way that term is used in USEPRO. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AICXEh036269 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AICWoD036268 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AICWdJ036260 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j5AICPZI065347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:12:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506101025570.29883@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >This was an issue that Charles raised off-list, I believe. This is the IETF working group tasked with news. There is no "off-list" issue, either it comes here or it isn't. >Good point - if filing tickets in response to issues raised off-list, we >need to make sure the WG is notified..... You are certainly kidding, aren't you? You are actually putting more emphasis on this trouble ticket system than on the working group? Gee, MAYBE we ought to mention trouble tickets on the working group that is supposed to be dealing with them? >The following comment was added by someone logged in as "ietf": That's how you told people to access the tickets. Is it odd that they do it the way you told them? And that they way you told them is essentially anonymous? Since I pointed out this problem in private and never got any resolution to it, I'll now bring it up in public. Why is this "trouble ticket" system using HTTPS with bogus certificates? This prevents participation by those who refuse to accept bogus certs. Or perhaps that was the goal? There is no reason for https. IETF discussions are supposed to be public. Whatever you post there is supposed to be available to anyone who wants to see it. There is no security issue: Harald published the username/password pair we are supposed to use to access the site. Why https? But more important, WHY does the trouble ticket system exist at all? If Harald wants to keep a tickler file of issues he thinks needs to be resolved, that's fine. If he wants to publish this list, fine. When that list takes on the task of discussing the issues, not so fine. If Charles's issue is worth discussing, it is worth discussing here. This "trouble ticket" system is a violation of, if not the letter, the spirit of IETF working groups, not only in theory, but now in practice. There should never be a question of "should we tell the WG about this issue we're discussing on this trouble ticket system?" Never. It should never be possible to have that question come up. Since it has now been demonstrated that the question has to be asked, it is time to shut down the trouble ticket system and bring discussion back home. Holding discussions in two places, one of which has limited access, is wrong. And then I run across this gem in "Friday - Ticket status": >1002 USEFOR 6. References - Updates needed > No discussion; ticket seems clear. References has been discussed at length IN THIS LIST, but now that there is no discussion in the "trouble ticket" system, the answer is clear. The only thing that is clear is that this trouble ticket system is being used to bypass the standard IETF working group process. Either that, or it creates the marvelous illusion that it is being used to bypass the process, and either situation is unacceptable. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AHtNso033090 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AHtN91033089 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AHtLpv033081 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgneF-0001Oh-Cf for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:50:27 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.151 ([62.80.58.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:50:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.151 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:50:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:53:02 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A9D37E.6C1F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.151 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > we're left with whether "header" means one RFC 2822 header > field (as in the current draft) or the entire part of the > article before the blank line (as in RFC 2822). This <quote Bruce> "hacker slang" <unquote> is also defined in RfC 2110: | Header Field in a message or content heading specifying | the value of one attribute. | Heading Part of a message or content before the first | CRLFCRLF, containing formatted fields with | attributes of the message or content. In real life nobody says "header field", only we sometimes do, because we are arrogant pseudo-scientific twits. URI vs. URL is another telltale. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AHMlne031179 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AHMlYT031178 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AHMklj031158 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5AHMbgt015329 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A9CC5F.8020604@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:22:39 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer wrote: > I favor keeping the terminology that's in common use in news software and > news documentation. The divergence from RFC 2822 is regrettable but it's > too late to fix it. Changing to RFC 2822 terminology will increase the > readability of our document for people coming from the mail world, but > will reduce it for people already accustomed to the news world. I submit > that for this document, the latter are more important. "More important" based on what criteria? If RFC2822 were an informative reference, inconsistency might be understandable. But since it is a base reference, there is NO WAY to read the USEFOR documents without understanding RFC2822 first. So that means that EVERYONE is "coming from email world." Google searches indicate 14,300 references for the term "RFC1036" 45,300 for "RFC2822" 997,000 for "RFC822" Counting google references isn't a precise measure of anything. But it says something. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AH5HIE028592 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AH5Hag028591 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AH5GD3028583 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5AH5FMd014883 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:05:16 -0700 Received: (qmail 18484 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 17:05:15 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 In-Reply-To: <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:07 +0200") References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:05:15 -0700 Message-ID: <87ll5ign1w.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > This was an issue that Charles raised off-list, I believe. Good point - > if filing tickets in response to issues raised off-list, we need to make > sure the WG is notified..... > The text of the ticket is the following: > ------------------------------ > I suggest to update the Newsgroup ABNF as follows: > 1). uppercase letters must be prohibited in newsgroup names It's not completely clear to me whether this is the right thing to do, since there are some uses of mixed-case newsgroup names in the wild already and they don't actually break anything beyond making things more confusing. The ftp.isc.org list refuses to add them, but the protocol actually has historically supported them. Sorry, I should have mentioned that earlier. > 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this also > addresses conflict with the special value "poster") I think they should be allowed; "poster" and "junk" just have to be reserved. (Getting the wording right for "junk" without going into what "junk" is used for is going to be a bit tricky.) > 3). prohibiting all digit components can be done in ABNF, but it would > be ugly. I suggest to address this with an ABNF comment. > 4). prohibiting components "ctl"/"all" and newsgroups starting > with "control", "example" or "to" can also be done in ABNF, but that > would be even uglier, as there is no way to exclude something in ABNF > (unless I am mistaken). So I suggest to add another comment(s). These both sound good to me. >> 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this >> also addresses conflict with the special value "poster") > But not with pseudo-groups like "junk" or "control", and > the real NG "spamcop" <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> It depends on how one prohibits them, basically. Definitely, news readers have to be able to read control and junk, so it has to be able to appear in the Xref header. In practice, people post to control and junk directly, but this often doesn't really do what one wants and I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow in the standard because the behavior is somewhat undefined. Crossposting to those groups is generally fairly harmless, just confusing. Creating groups by that name with control messages is a bad idea and shouldn't happen. Other single-component newsgroup names work fine at all levels of the protocol. They just don't work with the most common control.ctl patterns and are frowned on because they don't fit into a hierarchy as cleanly as, say, spamcop.general or the like. That's not really a protocol issue; it's more a USEAGE issue. >> 3). prohibiting all digit components can be done in ABNF, >> but it would be ugly. > Ugly if necessary is acceptable, but why is it necessary ? It's necessary to retain backward compatibility with any news server that uses the traditional directory structure for the news spool, since the group example.foo.600 and article 600 in example.foo both want to use the same file name. Many older news servers will essentially crash if one has created example.foo.600 and article 600 arrives in example.foo. Now, one could argue that this is just bad data structures and it's up to the server to work around this rather than putting this into the protocol, and I have a lot of sympathy for that argument. It's just hard to work around if you want to retain the standard spool structure because normally the part of the server that numbers articles and the part of the server that stores them don't have a two-way conversation, and there's a fair bit of existing software out there that just isn't ever going to cope. This has been one of the Usenet newsgroup naming rules for many years, although it's honored in the breech in a few places. (alt.2600 is the most famous example -- it gets away with this even on older news servers since there's no newsgroup named "alt".) >> 4). prohibiting components "ctl"/"all" and newsgroups starting with >> "control", "example" or "to" can also be done in ABNF > From a user's POV control.all behaves like r/o NGs. On what server are you seeing control.all? .all is a wildcard in C News and is equivalent to .*; it's used in feed pattern specifications. > On one server I know I "see" control.cancel.de (etc.) for cancels in > various TLHs. control.* should be reserved for the local implementation, not reserved in the sense that it never appears or cannot be read. Basically, the only thing you should be forbidden to do is send control messages about it, or possibly post to it (and I'm very iffy on the latter). > I've never heard of "example" being reserved. We're reserving it for the typical IETF "use in example" reasons. That will be new with our draft. > And pseudo-TLH "to" is some mail-by-news trick, from a user's POV like > an NG. The to.* newsgroups have extremely special handling with older news software and were used for point-to-point UUCP feeds and similar sorts of tricks. They are special-cased in numerous places in INN and I believe also in C News, and using them for any normal purposes will make you sad. This is another case where the client probably gets to read them, and in this case even post to them, but it should be made clear that they're special and may do strange things. (We should probably expand at some point on just what the strange things are that they're intended to be used for.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGoXql027571 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AGoXx6027570 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGoWNv027563 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j5AGoTF1026531; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j5AGoTDt026530; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text In-Reply-To: <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050610123942.25279H-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and > "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms > "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. > > "header name" occurs once. > "header content" occurs three times. > Is there anyone who objects to changing those to "field name" and "field > body"? We should be consistent: either use the terminology that is common in news, or use the RFC 2822 terminology from mail. Changing *some* of the terms will gain us nothing but confusion. The fact that "header name" and "header content" see little use doesn't mean they can be changed without penalty; what it means is that keeping them consistent with any decision about "header" is not a problem. They should be changed if, and *only* if, "header" is changed. > If that's OK, we're left with whether "header" means one RFC 2822 header > field (as in the current draft) or the entire part of the article before > the blank line (as in RFC 2822). I favor keeping the terminology that's in common use in news software and news documentation. The divergence from RFC 2822 is regrettable but it's too late to fix it. Changing to RFC 2822 terminology will increase the readability of our document for people coming from the mail world, but will reduce it for people already accustomed to the news world. I submit that for this document, the latter are more important. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGhK3d026869 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AGhKJJ026868 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:43:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGhKqO026862 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5AGhEBR000624 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A9C324.9080907@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:43:16 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >>On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > >>>Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and >>>the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be >>>discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > >>I suggest that no later than the publication of the next draft revision, >>the editors carefully spell-check, proofread, and edit for consistency >>the draft (e.g. section cross-references are correct, references listed >>in the references sections are actually referenced, informative/normative >>references are categorized correctly, etc.). > > > The Editors are well aware of many matters of form, boilerplate, division > of texts between USEFOR and USEPOR, and other nitpicks, etc. remain to be > done. But it is considered more important at the moment to get the > technical issues correct, so that at least each of USEFOR, USEPRO and > USEAGE can be made technically consistent. > When can we expect to see them in the ticket system? There is no sense using an issues tracking system for only some of the important issues. 80% of the benefit comes only by ensuring that it accurately represents all open issues. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGcGWB026601 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AGcGZD026600 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGcFNS026594 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5AGcEXA030776 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:38:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 17083 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 16:38:14 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? In-Reply-To: <Xns967174E0F812grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> (Graham Drabble's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:29:22 +0100") References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <Xns967174E0F812grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:38:14 -0700 Message-ID: <8764wmi2vd.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> writes: > On 09 Jun 2005 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: >> Hopefully this will give people a new appreciation for just how >> much bizarre junk is out there on the wire. > I came accross a whole bunch of articles that had the form: > Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:33:30 +Z > This was due to a badly configured moderation bot so it was affecting > all the posts into the group. They were so close. Without the +, that would have actually been valid. > FWIW this doesn't seem to have affected propogation and my newsreader > (XNews) gets the date right and treats +Z as +0000. My stat gathering > tool which uses perl's Date::Parse broke. INN treats all time zones it can't parse as the local time zone, rather than +0000, just because it did that historically and when I wanted to change it to +0000, again, people objected. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGFlot025280 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AGFlxl025279 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AGFkKr025273 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-208.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.208]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a9bc4f.576a.130 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:14:07 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j5AGCHK28406 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:12:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21194 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHvMBt.Lu0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:11:52 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and >> the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be >> discussed when the basic change is accepted". >I suggest that no later than the publication of the next draft revision, >the editors carefully spell-check, proofread, and edit for consistency >the draft (e.g. section cross-references are correct, references listed >in the references sections are actually referenced, informative/normative >references are categorized correctly, etc.). The Editors are well aware of many matters of form, boilerplate, division of texts between USEFOR and USEPOR, and other nitpicks, etc. remain to be done. But it is considered more important at the moment to get the technical issues correct, so that at least each of USEFOR, USEPRO and USEAGE can be made technically consistent. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AEGA1Z009688 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AEGAIC009687 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AEG9lV009680 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E7161B03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17457-08 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C20061AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:16:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Friday - Ticket status Message-ID: <E66C2E1370819356D6C51A16@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have the following open USEFOR tickets: 1002 USEFOR 6. References - Updates needed No discussion; ticket seems clear. 1003 USEFOR 3.1.3 - Cleanup ABNF for msg-id No discussion 1004 USEFOR 3.2.14 - Can we deprecate X- headers? A few notes, no clear resolution 1021 Newsgroups header ABNF and description needs cleanup No discussion 1022 USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Discussion sidetracked; no clear resolution 1028 USEFOR 3.1.2 Date: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? My impression is that only GMT should be a MUST accept, not UT. 1029 USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? My impression is that they are MUST NOT generate at present; people are sensitive to exact formulations here. 1030 USEFOR general: Backwards compatibility and handling incompatibilities No discussion, no text proposal 1031 USEFOR general: Standard terminology and text Under discussion 1032 USEFOR general: Document changes from RFC 1036 Principle accepted. Method under discussion. I also have a list of issues sent to me privately, which I have not seen on the list yet. I'll ask the source of these issues to raise the ones that are not strictly editorial on the list. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AE0dfA008829 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AE0d3f008828 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AE0cHc008822 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3797E61B03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:00:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17349-05 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:00:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4440461AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:00:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:00:31 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text Message-ID: <E2708A21464499731DBE37BB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> After looing through draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04, I've found that of the "redefined" terms: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. "header name" occurs once. "header content" occurs three times. Is there anyone who objects to changing those to "field name" and "field body"? If that's OK, we're left with whether "header" means one RFC 2822 header field (as in the current draft) or the entire part of the article before the blank line (as in RFC 2822). (I'm somewhat unsure what a "header line" means - it isn't listed in the definitions, and is not used in 2822. I'm assuming that it's a line (as defined in RFC 2822) that occurs in the header (as defined in RFC 2822)) Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ADOQiT005978 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ADOQT3005977 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:24:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ADOQNW005970 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ADOCgt025259 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A9947E.8040008@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:24:14 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Admin: Please watch your language References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > Bruce, > > this is a warning. On list and for the record. You were already warned > privately about insulting participants. > > Your language is insulting to the editors, the chairs and the members of > the working group who do not agree with you - as well as being just > vague enough that it is not possible to figure out what exact text you > are objecting to, and what you want it to say instead. > > If you continue in this vein, I will remove your posting rights to this > list. Bruce's "language" was insulting only if you consider criticism insult. You are welcome to remove the posting rights of anyone in order to finish the document the way you think best. If you remove Bruce's posting rights because you don't like what he says, then I see little point in my participating further. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ADEmbg004777 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ADEmT6004776 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ADElHs004764 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-66-33-227-27-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [66.33.227.27]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j5ADEdBR007370 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A99241.7080008@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:14:41 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > Now, you seem to have a specific objection to: > > This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and > "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms > "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. > > Are you making a proposal for a specific text change to delete this > paragraph and change the remaining text to use the RFC 2822 synonyms? > That's an actionable item; "some of the changes are blatantly obvious" > is not. > > (the word "header" occurs approx. 137 times in usefor-04. I think it's > makework to do the search-and-replace, but if I've interpreted you > correctly, you think differently. Please argue your case.) In the future, hundreds of people will read these documents. They will be expected to be familiar with RFC2822. Are you saying it is better to force every single one of those people to learn new, pointless definitions just to understand Usefor, than have one editor do 5 minutes of search and replace of "makework" now? Is it OK to pretend that we are going to finish before RFC2822 gets done? They finished first, so we get to re-use what they have done, not fight against it. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AD9o79002968 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:09:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AD9oJW002967 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AD9nbL002954 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9302461B03; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:09:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16597-10; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:09:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895E961AFB; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:09:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:09:45 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: Please watch your language Message-ID: <48F0D5A6E041B7F8167422AB@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce, this is a warning. On list and for the record. You were already warned privately about insulting participants. Your language is insulting to the editors, the chairs and the members of the working group who do not agree with you - as well as being just vague enough that it is not possible to figure out what exact text you are objecting to, and what you want it to say instead. If you continue in this vein, I will remove your posting rights to this list. Harald --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 09:00:52 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Fri June 10 2005 02:30, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> After 8 years on the IESG reading drafts, I found nothing special about >> draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04 that would warrant the "don't resemble any >> other IETF work-product" claim. So it seems you have different criteria >> than mine. > > I can't recall seeing a draft other than the one under discussion and > its predecessors that has anything like > "When we say 'white' we mean black, and when we say 'black' we mean red, > and when we say 'red' we mean green. We won't tell you what we really > mean when we say 'green' -- sometimes it might mean green and sometimes it > might mean something else." > Which is basically what that draft says (except it's not nearly as honest > about the last part). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AD19Tc099162 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:01:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AD19qB099161 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AD18u0099143 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4442996F; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5AD104V026187(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:01:00 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5AD0xfX026186(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:00:59 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:00:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506100900.55242.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 10 2005 02:30, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > After 8 years on the IESG reading drafts, I found nothing special about > draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04 that would warrant the "don't resemble any > other IETF work-product" claim. So it seems you have different criteria > than mine. I can't recall seeing a draft other than the one under discussion and its predecessors that has anything like "When we say 'white' we mean black, and when we say 'black' we mean red, and when we say 'red' we mean green. We won't tell you what we really mean when we say 'green' -- sometimes it might mean green and sometimes it might mean something else." Which is basically what that draft says (except it's not nearly as honest about the last part). > > Why is it acceptable to require that Bruce rewrite the sections before > > entering tickets for every one of those sections? Bruce isn't editor. [...] > > If the chair and editor can't see the problems in the text now, then what > > criteria will be used to evaluate any rewritten versions? Just curious. > > I wonder about that too. That's a strange remark. I think it's reasonable to state what the criteria for evaluating comments and determining consensus are before asking people to jump through ever higher hoops. For reference, a past WG Chair had the following to say, and if I recall correctly, Alexey has agreed: On the topic of voting: Especially on this topic, I think voting would be stupid. The decision is about rough consensus. One screaming person does not indicate that there is no rough consensus, but one or two well-reasoned arguments against a screaming huge crowd does. And a huge number of "I'd prefer X, but I couldn't care less" votes versus 2 or 3 well-argued "X will spell doom for the Internet, and Y will save it" votes *is* rough consensus for Y over X. So voting generally doesn't help me decide one way or the other that there is rough consensus. and As I said in the last message, voting (especially on topics where there are only a few voices who are making well-reasoned arguments) is often a lousy way to judge consensus because you can have a huge number of people vote for a position they don't feel strongly about. In the case of this particular issue, I think the chair taking a rough stab at what appears to be consensus and waiting for screams of horror is going to be much more productive than voting. We've seen a recently declared "(VERY) rough consensus", and you have referred to your May 27 message which repeats snippets of comments, few of which can be said to constitute "well-reasoned arguments". It's difficult to guess what criteria in fact were used to conclude the "(VERY) rough consensus", and there have been "screams of horror". I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if the criteria we have been using for the past couple of years have changed, and if so, what are the new criteria. Ideally we would have had that discussion up front, but better late than never... > I don't know of any simpler way than to get specific text change proposals > on the table, debate those on the open mailing list, and try to decide what > the consensus of the WG is. That's only part of it. It ought to be followed by o ensure that the Document Editor(s) faithfully record the WG consensus o ensure that once recorded in the document based on WG consensus, the text is not arbitrarily changed without good cause, WG discussion, and WG consensus [may I suggest an explicit note in the draft text, to be commented out during RFC publication, indicating the date on which consensus was declared as a cautionary note against unintentional revision during editing] If it isn't, there's little point in proceeding; we've seen the movie before (indeed, we've been watching reruns for 8 years) and we know how it turns out. > Painful, yes. Demands text proposals, yes. There's no point in specific *text* proposals (as distinct from a specific principle, with text to be worked out later) if they're rejected out of hand by Editorial fiat or if they're rewritten to change the meaning (or, for that matter, if the text is nitpicked to death ignoring the principles). All have happened, and that is why people are reluctant to suggest specific text. Now if the co-chairs are giving assurances that that won't continue to happen ("Come on in; the water's fine"), one or two people might cautiously dip a toe in the pool, and in the fullness of time somebody might actually dive in if and when it really seems worthwhile. Whether or not it's a bit late for that is another matter. > Now, you seem to have a specific objection to: > > This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and > "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms > "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. > > Are you making a proposal for a specific text change to delete this > paragraph and change the remaining text to use the RFC 2822 synonyms? > That's an actionable item; With s/RFC 2822 synonyms/standard FYI 18 & RFC 2822 terms/ that sounds like a great idea. So, count that as one actionable item. Following some clarifications regarding methods of determining consensus and assurances that WG consensus will be respected, there may be others. > (the word "header" occurs approx. 137 times in usefor-04. It wouldn't if the mix of standard and non-standard terminology that was in -00 had been corrected when that was suggested instead of being changed to exclusively non-standard terminology by Editorial fiat... > I think it's > makework to do the search-and-replace, but if I've interpreted you > correctly, you think differently. Please argue your case.) See http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jul/0077.html for a case that clear, consistent, and standard terminology matters. The goal of a technical specification is to enable implementers to produce interoperable implementations, and the likelihood of that is diminished if (any of) a) the specification is ambiguous b) the specification is self-inconsistent c) implementers are forced to remember "in this document 'white' means black and 'black' means red, and 'red' means green, but I'm told 'it requires complete understanding and implementation of the normative references', in which 'white' means white, 'black' means black, and 'red' means red" d) there are conflicting definitions of "foo" (for one or more values of foo) between the document and its normative reference, with no clear indication of which definition has priority or why there is a difference e) ABNF is self-inconsistent or ambiguous (or unchecked contrary to the requirement in ID-Guidelines) or conflicts with normative text f) operational requirements impose the need for an efficient implementation, which is precluded by grammar or some normative requirement g) the specification says "This document uses a cite by reference methodology, rather than repeating the contents of other standards, which could otherwise result in subtle differences and interoperability challenges", but the specification in fact repeats content of other specifications, introducing subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences and interoperability challenges. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ACnDXE094540 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5ACnDA9094539 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5ACnBwx094521 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4FC61B03; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16376-09; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC3C61AFB; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:07 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Newsgroup names #1021 (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Message-ID: <29CDA27CF7B8B4A064141F4E@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> This was an issue that Charles raised off-list, I believe. Good point - if filing tickets in response to issues raised off-list, we need to make sure the WG is notified..... The text of the ticket is the following: ------------------------------ I suggest to update the Newsgroup ABNF as follows: 1). uppercase letters must be prohibited in newsgroup names 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this also addresses conflict with the special value "poster") 3). prohibiting all digit components can be done in ABNF, but it would be ugly. I suggest to address this with an ABNF comment. 4). prohibiting components "ctl"/"all" and newsgroups starting with "control", "example" or "to" can also be done in ABNF, but that would be even uglier, as there is no way to exclude something in ABNF (unless I am mistaken). So I suggest to add another comment(s). ------------------------------------------- The following comment was added by someone logged in as "ietf": [alexey.melnikov@isode.com - Wed Jun 01 19:18:53 2005]: > 2). single component newsgroups must be prohibited (this > also addresses conflict with the special value "poster") But not with pseudo-groups like "junk" or "control", and the real NG "spamcop" <news://news.spamcop.net/spamcop> > 3). prohibiting all digit components can be done in ABNF, > but it would be ugly. Ugly if necessary is acceptable, but why is it necessary ? > 4). prohibiting components "ctl"/"all" and newsgroups > starting with "control", "example" or "to" can also be > done in ABNF From a user's POV control.all behaves like r/o NGs. On one server I know I "see" control.cancel.de (etc.) for cancels in various TLHs. I've never heard of "example" being reserved. And pseudo-TLH "to" is some mail-by-news trick, from a user's POV like an NG. (But actually I'm only testing this RT beast, bye, Frank) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AAdubB049270 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5AAduUU049269 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk (relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.161]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5AAdtKm049256 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graham.drabble@lineone.net) Received: from smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.235]) by relay2.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dggva-0007fW-7q for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:54 +0100 Received: from stu325.sjc.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.63.75] helo=ID-77355.user.dfncis.de) by smtp2.herald.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Dggva-0008TS-3n for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:54 +0100 Received: from sjoh1646 ([127.0.0.1]) by sjoh1646 (129.67.63.75) with news-to-mail ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:29:22 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? From: Graham Drabble <graham.drabble@lineone.net> References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:29:22 +0100 Organization: Home Message-ID: <Xns967174E0F812grahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de> User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Hamster-Pg/1.24 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On 09 Jun 2005 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote in news:877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu: > Hopefully this will give people a new appreciation for just how > much bizarre junk is out there on the wire. I came accross a whole bunch of articles that had the form: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:33:30 +Z This was due to a badly configured moderation bot so it was affecting all the posts into the group. FWIW this doesn't seem to have affected propogation and my newsreader (XNews) gets the date right and treats +Z as +0000. My stat gathering tool which uses perl's Date::Parse broke. -- Graham Drabble http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh1646/ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A9xO4Q035036 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A9xOm0035035 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:59:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A9xLv9035020 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0F92990A; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5A9xGjg025420(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:59:16 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j5A9xFQ0025419(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:59:15 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: security considerations (was: Injection-Info issues) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:58:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> <42A907F1.15C4@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A907F1.15C4@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506100559.03254.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 23:24, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > naive methods of handling parameters, i.e. those which do not > > take errata, RFC 2231, and more errata into account are likely > > to botch some legal MIME messages. > > But that's not the security issue. If something botches a MIME > message you normally get some more or less unreadable text. As opposed to the MIME structure specified. > The security issue is that an UA might get it right, and while > it's at it it installs and starts the mail worm, or opens the > GIF bomb, or whatever else these clever UAs might do. That itself (w/o specific user input) would be a MIME violation. > The security problem is the simple / naive scanner supposed to > catch this malware _before_ it meets any software from Redmond. Yes, because it botched MIME parsing. > > To keep Charles on his toes, one might also remark about the > > need to correctly handle all relevant base message format > > (RFC 2822) constructs, and specifically mention that "find > > the first semicolon" is not a viable approach. > > Are you still talking about the boundary ? "bOuNdArY" is just one attribute name. The parsing issue applies in general, and broken "parsing" leads to problems. > Or are you talking about 2822 CFWS between "=" and boundary, > where this CFWS includes a semicolon ? Not only comments, though that's one place where a semicolon might appear. Parsing has to use the specified syntax, and that's not "find the first semicolon". > <sigh> Yeah, a warning > about comments before or after the boundary is an excellent > idea. Or maybe an example: > > boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; charset=utf-8 Or Content-Type: multipart/mixed (; boundary=foo ; xyz=");bOuNdArY*=''next%20part(") Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A6UjL0058773 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A6Ui3a058772 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:30:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A6Uhlf058758 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20261B01; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:30:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12325-04; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:30:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCC061AFB; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:30:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:30:40 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Message-ID: <06F30156F8AF332C3A6E9480@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 14:31:49 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> I am looking forward to your specific suggestions on changes based on >> these documents. >> >> This still does NOT qualify as suggesting a text change. >> > > Huh? > > Bruce did a huge favor in reviewing and pointing out why the drafts > don't resemble any other IETF work-product. That review was a lot of work > already. Bruce provided a list of section numbers. Forrest, please tell me in which way (picking some random, and short, documents) draft-ietf-dnsop-serverid-04 and draft-ietf-sip-sctp-06 resemble each other more than either resemble draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04. After 8 years on the IESG reading drafts, I found nothing special about draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04 that would warrant the "don't resemble any other IETF work-product" claim. So it seems you have different criteria than mine. > Why is it acceptable to require that Bruce rewrite the sections before > entering tickets for every one of those sections? Bruce isn't editor. > > Many of the issues have been raised before. Some of the changes are > blatantly obvious, like the pointless redefinition of RFC2822 terms > in USEFOR-04 section 2. > > If the chair and editor can't see the problems in the text now, then what > criteria will be used to evaluate any rewritten versions? Just curious. I wonder about that too. Furthermore, since Bruce has raised a lot of objections to a lot of drafts over the time I've observed him, and has seen some of those objections rejected, it's clear that the IETF can decide to approve something that Bruce does not like. I don't know of any simpler way than to get specific text change proposals on the table, debate those on the open mailing list, and try to decide what the consensus of the WG is. Painful, yes. Demands text proposals, yes. Now, you seem to have a specific objection to: This specification uses the terms "header", "header name", and "header content" which are synonymous with the [RFC2822] terms "header field", "field name", and "field body" respectively. Are you making a proposal for a specific text change to delete this paragraph and change the remaining text to use the RFC 2822 synonyms? That's an actionable item; "some of the changes are blatantly obvious" is not. (the word "header" occurs approx. 137 times in usefor-04. I think it's makework to do the search-and-replace, but if I've interpreted you correctly, you think differently. Please argue your case.) Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A6AlxQ051283 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A6Al5r051282 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A6Ak04051270 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5A6Ajhe028836 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:10:45 -0700 Received: (qmail 24251 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 06:10:45 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: IPv6 literals in Path (Re: INN implementation clarifications) In-Reply-To: <2F41BDDE376BEEC415FF91DF@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:02:34 +0200") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A8ECDA.5B0D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <2F41BDDE376BEEC415FF91DF@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:10:45 -0700 Message-ID: <8764wmlp22.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > silly (?) question: > is there a failure mode in any known deployed software in which Path: > bang![dead::beef]!not-for-mail breaks things worse than Path: > bang!dead::beef!not-for-mail? > Russ' description seems to indicate that INN would cause both paths to > be treated identically..... and to create trouble for hosts "dead" and > "beef".... Not that I'm aware of; I think they're equivalent. Either software is only going to use ! as a delimiter or software is going to use the "standard" method of considering basically everything to be a delimiter. Note that hosts dead and beef shouldn't happen in normal operations, since Path entries should be FQDNs unless they're in the UUCP maps (and really, these days, that latter excuse is getting less and less relevant). However, of course, people do use random junk as their path identity from time to time. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A62d1D048203 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A62dpx048202 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A62cLG048186 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E5961B01; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:02:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12052-03; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:02:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3033361AFB; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:02:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:02:34 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: IPv6 literals in Path (Re: INN implementation clarifications) Message-ID: <2F41BDDE376BEEC415FF91DF@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <42A8ECDA.5B0D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A8ECDA.5B0D@xyzzy.claranet.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On fredag, juni 10, 2005 03:28:58 +0200 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote: > Russ Allbery wrote: > >> INN considers [a-zA-Z0-9._-] to be valid hostname characters > [...] > >> Path: f-oo.com% bar_bar.com*10.10.10.10![::45af:89]=not-for-mail >> is treated by INN as completely identical to: >> Path: f-oo.com!bar_bar.com!10.10.10.10!45af!89!not-for-mail > > I see a hack for our IPv6 literals, replace colon by underscore > - but that's only a very bad dream, right ? The colon is giving everyone bad dreams, some of which are RFCs :-( RFC 3986 (URI syntax) put square brackets around IPv6 addresses to disambiguate them from hostnames; at the time, a number of solutions were suggested, including representing the IPv6 address as 32 hex digits without punctuation and percent-escaping the colons. In the end, the people doing that syntax decided to use the colon and let the parsers fail where they may. silly (?) question: is there a failure mode in any known deployed software in which Path: bang![dead::beef]!not-for-mail breaks things worse than Path: bang!dead::beef!not-for-mail? Russ' description seems to indicate that INN would cause both paths to be treated identically..... and to create trouble for hosts "dead" and "beef".... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A4nFAf018884 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A4nFTx018883 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A4nCrL018875 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgbNm-0000kr-O2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:44:38 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:44:38 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:44:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: security considerations Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:46:54 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 5 Message-ID: <42A91B3E.44A4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> <42A90A22.3755@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: No, I didn't write nothing. The raw article is here: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format:28712:raw Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A3bn5D013435 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A3bnUf013434 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:37:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A3bm7u013428 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgaGe-0002ay-Oh for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:33:12 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:33:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:33:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: security considerations (was: Injection-Info issues) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:33:54 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42A90A22.3755@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; x-foo = xyzzy X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --simple Bruce Lilly wrote: > specifically mention that "find the first semicolon" is not a > viable approach. Who fixes my UA ? It's too old for these boundary tricks... :-( --simple-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A3W1wJ013218 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A3W1dh013217 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A3Vxup013207 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgaBD-00027Q-30 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:27:35 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:27:35 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:27:35 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: security considerations (was: Injection-Info issues) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:24:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 39 Message-ID: <42A907F1.15C4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >>>| MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. >>>| Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters >>>| like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined >>>| in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass simple algorithms >>>| trying to analyze MIME parts. [...] > naive methods of handling parameters, i.e. those which do not > take errata, RFC 2231, and more errata into account are likely > to botch some legal MIME messages. But that's not the security issue. If something botches a MIME message you normally get some more or less unreadable text. The security issue is that an UA might get it right, and while it's at it it installs and starts the mail worm, or opens the GIF bomb, or whatever else these clever UAs might do. The security problem is the simple / naive scanner supposed to catch this malware _before_ it meets any software from Redmond. > To keep Charles on his toes, one might also remark about the > need to correctly handle all relevant base message format > (RFC 2822) constructs, and specifically mention that "find > the first semicolon" is not a viable approach. Are you still talking about the boundary ? In that case it's more a 2045 / 2046 / 2231 issue, and semicolon is no bchar. Or are you talking about 2822 CFWS between "=" and boundary, where this CFWS includes a semicolon ? <sigh> Yeah, a warning about comments before or after the boundary is an excellent idea. Or maybe an example: boundary (not=me) = ("yes ;-) simple (foo;bar") ; charset=utf-8 Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2p4G2007783 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A2p4TG007782 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2p3ft007776 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:51:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5A2p2OV024816 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:51:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 15630 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 02:51:02 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <42A8FB96.B45@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:31:50 +0200") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtwuy.G2A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6f47ox.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A8FB96.B45@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:51:02 -0700 Message-ID: <873brqorft.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > How about taking TZ as is ? On my box I'd get this creature: > SET TZ=CET-1DST,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600 > The CET would survive your table, but the "DST" is completely > bogus, I use it because IIRC MS C 6.0 wanted 3 letters. Can't > check it at the moment, the C library sources are on an almost > dead disk (disabled until I find the place for the last "read" > attempt). > Don't worry, AFAIK nothing on my box uses "DST" for anything, > but in theory a very strange UA could try it. And in theory I > could live in Eastern Australia and then, who knows. > The obs- timezone crap is as you said above all crap ;-) Bye. TZ has not, for many years now and perhaps ever, been bidirectionally equivalent to the time zone abbreviation. Some time zone abbreviations are *also* valid TZ settings, but for instance the most common TZ setting in my part of the US (prior to switching to the Olson scheme) would be PST8PDT, which has never been valid as a zone abbreviation. I doubt any software would use it that way. What software *does* do is use the time zone abbreviation generated by the system time zone libraries; most time zones do have assigned (often ambiguous) abbreviations. Heck, INN does this. It just does it in a *comment*, which is the right way to do it. The comment is valuable information (well, insofar as any human-readable time zone information is valuable at least), since it lets you distinguish between, say, PDT and MST without knowing the daylight saving date. That abbreviation is unrelated to the TZ string, however. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2WxEI006449 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A2WxUs006448 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2WwPQ006441 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgZGC-0005K1-3n for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:28:40 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:28:40 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:28:40 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:31:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 23 Message-ID: <42A8FB96.B45@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtwuy.G2A@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87br6f47ox.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: >> Guess what individual Australian users are likely to do. > This is not the sort of thing that's likely to be a > user-configurable option in a news reader. How about taking TZ as is ? On my box I'd get this creature: SET TZ=CET-1DST,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600 The CET would survive your table, but the "DST" is completely bogus, I use it because IIRC MS C 6.0 wanted 3 letters. Can't check it at the moment, the C library sources are on an almost dead disk (disabled until I find the place for the last "read" attempt). Don't worry, AFAIK nothing on my box uses "DST" for anything, but in theory a very strange UA could try it. And in theory I could live in Eastern Australia and then, who knows. The obs- timezone crap is as you said above all crap ;-) Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2L6i5005804 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A2L6m9005803 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A2L6iR005796 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5A2L5Is021798 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:21:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 14774 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2005 02:21:05 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? In-Reply-To: <42A8E85E.4A48@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:09:50 +0200") References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A8E85E.4A48@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:21:04 -0700 Message-ID: <87aclzne9b.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Hopefully this will give people a new appreciation for just >> how much bizarre junk is out there on the wire. > Thanks, nice statistics. So nobody uses Z etc. ? I've never seen a use of the military time zones in the wild, although it's possible my script might have missed some uses if there was no space before the time zone name (which is allowed by RFC 822; RFC 822 doesn't require any spaces at all in the string, last time I checked). But I doubt it. >> MEZ: 56 (00.0%) > Ugh. But at least no MESZ or "MEZT". At least in this batch of stuff! :) Incidentaly, I think I checked at one point and the LOCAL and UNKNOWN time zones were from articles from the 1990s that were in groups that never expired. I'm not sure, though. > For USEFOR your results mean "no GMT hits 21%", that would be > bad. Henry already said that he won't insist on UT. So the > real problem is EDT + EST (0.9%). I think it would be insane to allow anything other than what's in RFC 822. I'm certainly not arguing for adding BST, JST, etc. I'm mostly pointing out two things: EDT/EST/PDT/PST/etc. are both fully compliant with RFC 1036 and used in practice by significant numbers of articles (*particularly* if you want to do things with old news spools, which people do often want to do), and real-life news software accepts a ton of junk that's never been in any standard because of common use of getdate as mentioned in RFC 1036. getdate supports an unfortunate number of textual time zone strings. The Date specification in RFC 1036 is unfortunately something of a mess. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A26dHP004584 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A26dKC004583 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:06:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A26b3w004572 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgYqQ-0002Iu-O3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:02:02 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:02:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:02:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: LTRU questions (was: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:03:02 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 40 Message-ID: <42A8F4D6.7C54@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > ISO 3166 is used normatively in section 3.2.6 but is listed > as informative. ISO 3166:1988 3rd ed. :-( Maybe we can use the region codes in the new LTRU registry, it's probably ready for take-off before USEFOR. I'll try to watch this point. In any case of course "normative", but no debates about CS 1988 please. While I'm at it here's another LTRU issue: The "worst" encoded word for 3066bis could be something like: Subject: =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-831-variant1-variant2?Q?a?= ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5...50....5...60....5...70....5. That's ridiculous, but "legal" under 2047 / 2231 / 3066bis. Now let's assume that it's the first character of a word where the language tag makes sense. And it's the first character of the Subject. And it hits a mail2news gateway. Any attempt to split one letter fails. There are some rules in 3066bis allowing to strip "-variant2": Subject: =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-831-variant1?Q?a?= ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5...50....5...60....5...70....5. Good enough, but do we expect this clever trick from gateways ? Or should we just offer a way to force compatibility with our rules by adding a "dummy" word in the 1st line of the Subject ? Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=EF=BF=BE?= =?pc-multilingual-850+euro*lng-exa-exb-exc-Latn-831-variant1-variant2?Q?a?= ....5...10....5...20....5...30....5...40....5...50....5...60....5...70....5. Or what should the poor mail2news gateway do ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A1UGk6001600 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A1UGrx001599 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A1UEGP001592 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgYH2-0006lm-52 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:25:28 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:25:28 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:25:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: INN implementation clarifications Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:28:58 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <42A8ECDA.5B0D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > INN considers [a-zA-Z0-9._-] to be valid hostname characters [...] > Path: f-oo.com% bar_bar.com*10.10.10.10![::45af:89]=not-for-mail > is treated by INN as completely identical to: > Path: f-oo.com!bar_bar.com!10.10.10.10!45af!89!not-for-mail I see a hack for our IPv6 literals, replace colon by underscore - but that's only a very bad dream, right ? Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A1D5hX095023 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A1D5Xp095022 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:13:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A1D3GI094994 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgXzh-00050c-GT for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:07:33 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:07:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:07:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:09:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A8E85E.4A48@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > Hopefully this will give people a new appreciation for just > how much bizarre junk is out there on the wire. Thanks, nice statistics. So nobody uses Z etc. ? > MEZ: 56 (00.0%) Ugh. But at least no MESZ or "MEZT". > I write better code when I expect to ever use it again. :) I won't understand it unless it's gawk ;-) If you're sure that you didn't miss the military zones I simply believe it. For USEFOR your results mean "no GMT hits 21%", that would be bad. Henry already said that he won't insist on UT. So the real problem is EDT + EST (0.9%). Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A0qYT5091767 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5A0qYOK091766 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5A0qXG0091759 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DgXgo-0003EB-Eu for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:48:02 +0200 Received: from du-001-066.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:48:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-066.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:48:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Newsgroup names #1021 (was: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup") Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:50:41 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 15 Message-ID: <42A8E3E1.7373@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-066.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > the subject of the definition of "followup" is now closed. Amen. > Any new messages on the subject of the definition of > "followup" that do not raise new technical issues will be > treated as off-topic postings. OB on topic: what's the purpose of ticket #1021 ? Where does it come from ? https://rt.psg.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=1021 Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59LxsOI079359 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59LxsWI079358 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Lxrn9079348 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j59LxqGr006899 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:59:52 -0700 Received: (qmail 30690 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 21:59:52 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: INN implementation clarifications In-Reply-To: <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:50:31 -0400") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:59:52 -0700 Message-ID: <87br6f2ntz.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Thu June 9 2005 16:01, Russ Allbery wrote: >>> My understanding was that INN was now accepting folded Newsgroups >>> headers when relaying. >> Ah, yes, it's done that since 2.4. > Q1: for relaying only, or for relaying and injection? Only for relaying. > Q2: any estimate of the number of pre-2.4 installations still active? Certainly at least hundreds. My guess would be that something in the range of 50-60% of the INN installations out there have upgraded at this point, based on the questions that I get. >> It doesn't accept colons, btw. > Q3: In the Newsgroups field? Right. Sorry, that was rather unimportant; I ended up getting confused between this and the Path header. Of course it doesn't accept colons in Newsgroups. :) > Q4: What about colon in Path; does "doesn't accept" mean: > a) rejects articles > b) interprets colon as a delimiter > c) does not interpret colon as a delimiter INN considers [a-zA-Z0-9._-] to be valid hostname characters in the Path header and all other characters are treated as delimiters. So in other words, the following path header: Path: f-oo.com% bar_bar.com*10.10.10.10![::45af:89]=not-for-mail is treated by INN as completely identical to: Path: f-oo.com!bar_bar.com!10.10.10.10!45af!89!not-for-mail -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59LPMwM073810 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59LPMqS073809 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59LPLgN073803 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4720D2998B; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59LPJDW019556(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:25:19 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59LPIx2019555(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:25:19 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:25:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> <IHtu3F.Fr8@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHtu3F.Fr8@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091725.16806.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 13:04, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Wed June 8 2005 09:52, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> So the position we took was that people should start generating them when, > >> in their opinion, they would work well enough [...]. > AIUI, Mark Crispin's idea is that you give guidance to implementors to the > effect that such and such behaviour, although permitted, will cause such > and such problems on the present network, and that implementors should > consider this carefully before deciding whether to provide it. There were several specific examples, none of which used anything resembling "in their opinion". > If that is correct, I would have no particular problem with it. But it is, > in essence, what the article-* drafts were trying to say (they were > certainly not saying "do whatever you please", any more than Mark was > saying that). There is a huge difference between documenting specific issues and making specific recommendations vs. leaving matters to the opinions of non-experts. Another example of how issues can be handled is the following text taken from the rfc2440bis draft: While this attack is somewhat obscure, requiring a special set of circumstances to create it, it is nonetheless quite serious as it permits someone to trick a user to decrypt a message. Consequently, it is important that: 1. Implementers treat MDC errors and decompression failures as security problems. 2. Implementers implement Modification Detection with all due speed and encourage its spread. 3. Users migrate to implementations that support Modification Detection with all due speed. Something similar could certainly be used where there are issues corresponding to what Mark calls "baby programmer errors", e.g. inability to handle msg-ids with a legal 255-octet domain name. There is no good reason to be stuck with such an absurdity forever; implementers can and should be encouraged to fix the problems "with all due speed". > The problems are indeed with UAs, and it is true that such comments are > most unlikely to appear in Real Life (so getting agents to accept them > comes fairly low in implementors' priority orders). > > However, it would be unwise to assume that existing mail UAs "already > necessarily handle comments". No assumption necessary; comments have always been legal in RFC 724/733/822 structured fields -- any supposed "UA" that doesn't handle them properly is not conformant. Some software is crappy; fact of life. Absent other considerations, that's no reason to degrade specifications to the level of crappiness of the lowest common denominator. > For sure, it is known for a fact that some agents (news-only ones maybe) > do NOT currently handle these comments correctly. Nobody is going to force them to claim compliance with our specification. As RFCs 850 and 1036 refer to 822 and make no exception regarding comments in References fields, such agents were not 850- or 1036-conforming. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59LPGaJ073795 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59LPGTG073794 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59LPED4073782 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FDD61B94; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:25:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31120-07; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:25:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA1361B92; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:25:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:25:10 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <54106F133056B9446EB13AB0@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <IHtrrI.F8s@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> <IHtrrI.F8s@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 16:14:05 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> To clarify, my strong preference is "exactly as RFC 2822". >> I'm willing to entertain other options, so long as there is an >> accompanying well-reasoned argument for a deviation from 2822. > > I think everyone agrees MUST accept. > > The issue is SHOULD NOT vs MUST NOT for generate. Charles, may I remind you again: the current wording (2.1) is MAY accept. What wording change do you propose? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Koc8X071522 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59KobWF071521 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59KobM6071515 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCB02993C; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59KoZls019407(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:50:36 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59KoZNb019406(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:50:35 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: INN implementation clarifications Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:50:31 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091650.32525.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 16:01, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > > >> I think I've mentioned this before, but maybe not. INN still does not > >> accept folded newsgroup headers, since that would mean accepting an > >> article that's just going to get rejected by the next news server and > >> fail silently. Be conservative in what one generates, etc. > > > My understanding was that INN was now accepting folded Newsgroups > > headers when relaying. > > Ah, yes, it's done that since 2.4. Q1: for relaying only, or for relaying and injection? Q2: any estimate of the number of pre-2.4 installations still active? > It doesn't accept colons, btw. Q3: In the Newsgroups field? Q4: What about colon in Path; does "doesn't accept" mean: a) rejects articles b) interprets colon as a delimiter c) does not interpret colon as a delimiter Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Kh5MZ070827 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Kh5rX070826 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Kh4KZ070819 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091A62996C; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Kh2CY019323(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:43:03 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Kh1RS019322(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:43:02 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Date-time yet again Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:42:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506082040.19825.blilly@erols.com> <IHtyF6.G9C@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHtyF6.G9C@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091642.52315.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 14:37, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506082040.19825.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Wed June 8 2005 10:42, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> In <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > >> > >> >Precisely how would "PDT" "break the protocols" in a way that "UT" > >> >would not? > >> > >> I am not aware what other zones use "PDT", but [...] > > >Charles, stop trying to evade the issue. > > Whether or not "PDT" has clones is beside the point Then its rather telling that you keep changing the subject to that when you are asked to substantiate your claims, viz.: You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone> because it would actually break the protocols and that it would REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept constructes that had Never Ever been seen in Netnews The simple fact is that the specific alphabetic zones listed in RFC 2822 parse grammar also appeared in RFC 822 (cited as the definitive reference for date-time by RFCs 850 and 1036) and are in fact handled by news software past (including B news) and present. There is nothing that "would actually break the protocols" as you claimed; obviously, since those abbreviations have been in use for decades without breakage (illegal cruft not in 822 is another matter). For the purpose of specifying the date-time field component semantics and syntax, I see absolutely no reason to deviate from RFC 2822 and several very good reasons to defer the matter to 2822. For protocol purposes, we can address handling of obs-zone by injection and transport agents in the protocol document, which is a separate matter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K8lIi067850 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59K8ltp067849 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K8l1Z067842 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j59K8kYl007705 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:08:46 -0700 Received: (qmail 27182 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 20:08:46 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text In-Reply-To: <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> (Forrest J. Cavalier, III's message of "Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:31:49 -0400") References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:08:46 -0700 Message-ID: <877jh347jl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J Cavalier <forrest@mibsoftware.com> writes: > Huh? > Bruce did a huge favor in reviewing and pointing out why the drafts > don't resemble any other IETF work-product. That review was a lot of > work already. Bruce provided a list of section numbers. > Why is it acceptable to require that Bruce rewrite the sections before > entering tickets for every one of those sections? Bruce isn't editor. In those messages, he wasn't sufficiently specific about what he wanted changed for me to have any idea what he was talking about without applying knowledge from previous discussions (sometimes years back). He doesn't have to rewrite the sections, but he should at least list specifically what terms he wants changed and outline what textual changes he wants made. > Many of the issues have been raised before. Yes, I agree with this, but to get the information into the ticket it needs to be summarized without assuming people have read all the previous messages. > Some of the changes are blatantly obvious, like the pointless > redefinition of RFC2822 terms in USEFOR-04 section 2. When they're blatantly obvious, they're very easy to list. > If the chair and editor can't see the problems in the text now, then > what criteria will be used to evaluate any rewritten versions? I think you're putting words into the chair's mouth. We're not talking about his personal ability to see the desired changes; we're talking about a procedure that we were asked to follow in making changes. Proposals need to be specific enough that everyone knows exactly what is being proposed to change. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K5aau067629 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59K5a2Y067628 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K5ZFr067622 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j59K5Z6b022347 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 27107 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 20:05:34 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <IHtwuy.G2A@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:04:10 GMT") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtwuy.G2A@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:05:34 -0700 Message-ID: <87br6f47ox.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Yes, I agree that particular scenario is unlikely, though it is quite > easy to hack the TZ tables in Unix to make EST mean whatever you like, > and I have no doubt that many Australian sysadmins will have done so. I find this incredibly unlikely. Why on earth would they do that rather than just configuring the system to be in Australia/Sydney? > 1. It is also easy to hack the news software (indeed, the CNews sources > already contain the necesary line of code - and for Easter Island and > East Brazil too - just proteced by an "#if 0 .... #endif"). I worry that > some Australian newsadmin will have succumbed to the temptation. Also extremely unlikely; the comment says explicitly why not to do that. > 2. Individual users may have configured their user agents with such > timezones (indeed, I suspect that is how the non-GMT examples arose in > your test). Guess what individual Australian users are likely to do. This is not the sort of thing that's likely to be a user-configurable option in a news reader. I've never seen a news reader that could be configured that way. The bogus time zones are probably due to bad choices in writing the code, likely code that was written in the US and therefore always used RFC 822-approved time zones in that context being run elsewhere in the world. I think your objections are on grounds that are very unlikely, and that none of them warrant a diversion from RFC 2822. EST has a well-defined meaning as a time zone, for better or for worse, and news software has been giving it that meaning for at least fifteen years. I really do not see how this could suddenly become some sort of huge interoperability problem. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K1t4i067137 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59K1t5S067136 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:01:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59K1tE2067130 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j59K1sFY021331 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:01:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 26232 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 20:01:54 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header In-Reply-To: <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:39:08 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:01:54 -0700 Message-ID: <87fyvr47v1.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> I think I've mentioned this before, but maybe not. INN still does not >> accept folded newsgroup headers, since that would mean accepting an >> article that's just going to get rejected by the next news server and >> fail silently. Be conservative in what one generates, etc. > My understanding was that INN was now accepting folded Newsgroups > headers when relaying. Ah, yes, it's done that since 2.4. It doesn't accept colons, btw. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhhE7065568 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59JhhUO065567 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhgVw065553 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899c5.17c78.1f5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:29 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWuN21520 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:56 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21158 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Date-time yet again Message-ID: <IHtyF6.G9C@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506082040.19825.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:37:54 GMT Lines: 98 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506082040.19825.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 8 2005 10:42, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >> >> >Precisely how would "PDT" "break the protocols" in a way that "UT" >> >would not? >> >> I am not aware what other zones use "PDT", but [...] >Charles, stop trying to evade the issue. Whether or not "PDT" has clones is beside the point, unless you intend to single out and permit the "safe" zones and deprecate the others. Which would be most unwise IMO. Here, for your general amusement, are the clones I have picked out of the Cnews sources. I strongly suspect this list is but the tip of the real iceberg :-( . /* text token lexval */ "adt", DTZ, PACK(-180), /* Atlantic DT */ "adt", DTZ, PACK(-240), /* Acre DT */ "adt", DTZ, PACK(0), /* Azores DT */ "ast", TZ, PACK(-240), /* Atlantic ST (Canada) */ "ast", TZ, PACK(-300), /* Acre ST */ "ast", TZ, PACK(-60), /* Azores ST */ "bst", DTZ, PACK(60), /* British Summer Time */ "bst", TZ, PACK(-180), /* Brazil ST */ "cdt", DTZ, PACK(-180), /* Chile DT */ "cdt", DTZ, PACK(-240), /* Cuba DT */ "cdt", DTZ, PACK(-300), /* Central DT */ "cdt", DTZ, PACK(540), /* China DT */ "cst", TZ, PACK(-240), /* Chile ST */ "cst", TZ, PACK(-300), /* Cuba ST */ "cst", TZ, PACK(-360), /* Central ST */ "cst", TZ, PACK(480), /* China ST */ "edt", DTZ, PACK(-120), /* East Brazil DT */ "edt", DTZ, PACK(-240), /* Eastern DT */ "edt", DTZ, PACK(-300), /* Easter Island DT */ "edt", DTZ, PACK(660), /* Australian Eastern DT */ "est", TZ, PACK(-180), /* East Brazil ST */ "est", TZ, PACK(-300), /* Eastern ST */ "est", TZ, PACK(-360), /* Easter Island ST */ "est", TZ, PACK(600), /* Australian Eastern ST */ "fst", DTZ, PACK(120), /* French Summer Time */ "fst", TZ, PACK(-120), /* Fernando de Noronha ST */ "ist", TZ, PACK(120), /* Israel */ "ist", TZ, PACK(330), /* Indian ST */ "sst", DTZ, PACK(120), /* Swedish Summer Time */ "sst", TZ, PACK(-660), /* Samoa ST */ "sst", TZ, PACK(480), /* Singapore ST */ "wet", TZ, PACK(0), /* Western Europe */ "wet", TZ, PACK(60), /* Western European Time */ "wst", TZ, PACK(-240), /* Western Brazil ST */ "wst", TZ, PACK(480), /* West Australian ST */ >> We decided that >> obs-syntax in general was a Bad Thing, and it would be an imposition to >> demand that news agents should accept it all regardless (a point you >> yourself once made, as you will doubtless recall). >I do not recall any such thing No, you wouldn't. It must have been decided in 1997 or 1998, and has not been challenged since, apart from the two exceptions for obs-zone and obs-phrase which were also discussed agreed (in 2001 and 2003 respectively). That is how the decisions made by the WG stand at the moment. By all means propose further changes in this area, but do not pretend that those former decisions were never made. >> >> IIRC, it was you who asked for <obs-zone> to be brought within our >> >> standard. >> >> >References, please. >> >> www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0221.html >That message has nothing whatsoever to do with obs-zone (the term is >nowhere mentioned in that message, nor is the subject matter). Yes, I was confusing the <obs-zone> discussion with the <obs-phrase> discussion. My apologies for that. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Jhg8Z065560 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59JhgH2065559 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Jhfro065551 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899c4.17c78.1f4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:28 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWss21511 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:54 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21156 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <IHtu3F.Fr8@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:04:27 GMT Lines: 68 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 8 2005 09:52, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> So the position we took was that people should start generating them when, >> in their opinion, they would work well enough [...]. >I suspect that in a Standards Track document "do whatever you please" >isn't going to pass muster. Less so, I suspect, than a flag day. > >> So there is the gamut of possibilities. They need to be considered >> together. >No, there are other possibilities, including, but not limited to: >o provide a roadmap (X at Proposed, Y at Draft, Z at Full Standard). > Harald can probably give some guidance as to how well that would be > received by the IESG, but failing something like that, there is a > good chance that each such change would require a reset to Proposed >o Implementation notes as suggested by Mark Crispin: > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0486.html > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0554.html AIUI, Mark Crispin's idea is that you give guidance to implementors to the effect that such and such behaviour, although permitted, will cause such and such problems on the present network, and that implementors should consider this carefully before deciding whether to provide it. If that is correct, I would have no particular problem with it. But it is, in essence, what the article-* drafts were trying to say (they were certainly not saying "do whatever you please", any more than Mark was saying that). >Specifically regarding the References field and comments, what is the >scope of the issue? Transport agents are unaffected. Any >considerations appear to be confined to UAs, and as the field plays >imperatives), "[RFC2822]" (for implementations that wish to claim >conformance) may suffice [note that a) comments have always been >permitted per RFC 822 as adopted by 850/1036, b) many UAs are combined >mail/news UAs and already necessarily handle comments (unless they're >broken UAs), and c) message-generating UAs generally do not insert >comments in References fields, so the only likely source is a human >manually editing a field]. It doesn't seem worth spending much time >on -- not beyond an implementation note at most. The problems are indeed with UAs, and it is true that such comments are most unlikely to appear in Real Life (so getting agents to accept them comes fairly low in implementors' priority orders). However, it would be unwise to assume that existing mail UAs "already necessarily handle comments". Have you actually tried it? Sadly, broken agents are a fact of life, however much King Canute might wish them to go away. For sure, it is known for a fact that some agents (news-only ones maybe) do NOT currently handle these comments correctly. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhfWX065549 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Jhf9S065548 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhdZV065539 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899c1.17c78.1f2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:25 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWta21516 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:55 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21157 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHtwuy.G2A@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:04:10 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> It is just not realistic to suppose that servers in Australia will >> interpret "EST" according to RFC 2822 (they will probably just hand the >> zone off to the OS, and for sure that will take an Australian view of >> time zones). >I have never seen any news software that does this, and furthermore, given >that there is no OS facility short of changing TZ for the process that >could make head or tails of "EST" on Unix at least, I disbelieve in the >existence of software that takes this approach. Yes, I agree that particular scenario is unlikely, though it is quite easy to hack the TZ tables in Unix to make EST mean whatever you like, and I have no doubt that many Australian sysadmins will have done so. But there are two more realistic scenarios. 1. It is also easy to hack the news software (indeed, the CNews sources already contain the necesary line of code - and for Easter Island and East Brazil too - just proteced by an "#if 0 .... #endif"). I worry that some Australian newsadmin will have succumbed to the temptation. 2. Individual users may have configured their user agents with such timezones (indeed, I suspect that is how the non-GMT examples arose in your test). Guess what individual Australian users are likely to do. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhdXL065532 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Jhdgn065531 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhcPI065504 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899c0.17c78.1f1 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:24 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWqx21501 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:52 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21154 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? Message-ID: <IHtsMt.FGJ@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050608101326.24647H-100000@spsystems.net> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:32:53 GMT Lines: 45 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050608101326.24647H-100000@spsystems.net> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: >On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> These numbers could argue for skipping UT and/or including EDT (and >> presumabily EST, since this measurement was taken in summer). >"UT" was my addition in son-of-1036, and since it seems to have achieved >essentially zero market penetration :-), I think we can forget about it. >We should *NOT* bless EST or EDT, still in significant use though they may >be, because they are definitely ambiguous. (I think it most unlikely that >software which puts in a local timezone name is first checking to make >sure that the definition agrees with the RFC 2822 obs-zone definition.) I concur. GMT is a special case because (a) it is not ambiguous and (b) it occurs in 20% of current articles (presumably because some widely used software is enforcing it - I know that CNews is one of the culprits in that regard). So I think we MUST accept GMT, though I would happily drop UT. As for the rest, I do not think we should cherry pick. Either we accept everything in the RFC 2822 <obs-zone> (with some risk of misuse in Australia and other places), or we accept none of it beyond GMT. My preference is the latter, followed by the former (OK, you might omit the military ones). As for generation, we currently say SHOULD NOT. I would have no probnlem if someone wants to promoite that to MUST NOT. BTW, I discovered this morning that "EST" is also used in Eastern Brazil and Easter Island :-) . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Jhd7H065534 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59JhdB0065533 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhcPm065503 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899bf.17c78.1f0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:23 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWoJ21497 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:50 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21153 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHtrrI.F8s@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:14:05 GMT Lines: 37 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Wed June 8 2005 07:13, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> - Bruce Lilly argues against a deviation (I think). >To clarify, my strong preference is "exactly as RFC 2822". >I'm willing to entertain other options, so long as there is an >accompanying well-reasoned argument for a deviation from 2822. I think everyone agrees MUST accept. The issue is SHOULD NOT vs MUST NOT for generate. The argument for MUST NOT is that it follows RFC 2822 exactly. The argument for SHOULD NOT is that we may be choosing SHOULD NOT for the References and Newsgroups folding cases, in which case there is some merit in being consistent across all three. And I am assuming that we are discussing only <obs-phrase> (aka <extended-phrase>) here. I would be totally opposed to opening the floodgates to the obs- syntax as a whole. Just the two cases we are discussing - <obs-phrase> and <obs-zone>. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhbCe065497 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59JhbZR065496 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JhaLH065470 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-73-106.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.73.106]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a899bd.17c78.1ee for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:34:21 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j59JWrn21506 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:32:53 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21155 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <IHtsx8.FJ9@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:39:08 GMT Lines: 23 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >I think I've mentioned this before, but maybe not. INN still does not >accept folded newsgroup headers, since that would mean accepting an >article that's just going to get rejected by the next news server and fail >silently. Be conservative in what one generates, etc. My understanding was that INN was now accepting folded Newsgroups headers when relaying. I agree that it would be foolish, at this time, to accept them when injecting. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JbnpZ064658 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59JbnLK064657 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59JbmZV064638 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j59JbfwJ050020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506091225200.18483@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Henry Spencer <henry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >However, the mere fact that someone says the consensus is wrong doesn't >make it so. If you are going to pretend that the only argument I've ever made about this is "I say it is wrong", then I will happily go through all the details again. Is that what you want, or would you like to change your statement and admit that I've provided much more than "I say"? >No, only that RFC 2822 -- a mail standard -- doesn't entirely apply to >news, When our standard says it defers to RFC2822, it defers to RFC2822. It doesn't matter if RFC2822 "doesn't entirely apply", it applies in those sections where we have already said it applies. References is one such section. If you wish to submit proposed text so that we do NOT defer to RFC2822 for References, fine. If you wish to discuss the text I've already provided for USEFOR to bring it in line with RFC2822, that's fine too. But claiming that RFC2822 doesn't apply to news after we've said that it does is dishonest. >Defining the format and semantics of news articles is our job, and it is >appropriate for us to do it. Within the context of the IETF, which includes RFC2119. If we don't want RFC2119 to apply, then why do we explicitely say it does? If you would like to propose text to correct this compliance with RFC2119, please do. >Correct, it's not. The ability to detect intended relationships between >articles is important -- that's what References is for That's what YOU say it is for. Unfortunately, none of the RFCs agree with you. So, I guess it's ok for "Henry says" to be a closing argument. Double standard (pun intended)? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59IVwg7059277 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59IVwYo059276 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59IVwMn059270 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-249-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.249]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j59IVmgt006204 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A88B15.4070104@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:31:49 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.153 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I am looking forward to your specific suggestions on changes based on > these documents. > > This still does NOT qualify as suggesting a text change. > Huh? Bruce did a huge favor in reviewing and pointing out why the drafts don't resemble any other IETF work-product. That review was a lot of work already. Bruce provided a list of section numbers. Why is it acceptable to require that Bruce rewrite the sections before entering tickets for every one of those sections? Bruce isn't editor. Many of the issues have been raised before. Some of the changes are blatantly obvious, like the pointless redefinition of RFC2822 terms in USEFOR-04 section 2. If the chair and editor can't see the problems in the text now, then what criteria will be used to evaluate any rewritten versions? Just curious. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59I7XrC057184 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59I7XkE057183 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59I7Uc6057175 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j59I7JF1013273; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j59I7JQt013272; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506090952360.9342@a.shell.peak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609135824.13008A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, John Stanley wrote: > >...the text that seems to come closest to capturing the (VERY) rough > >consensus of the group is: > > This is a technical standard. A consensus to be wrong is still wrong. However, the mere fact that someone says the consensus is wrong doesn't make it so. > Just to make it clear, the official position of this working group is that > RFC2822 doesn't say what it does... No, only that RFC 2822 -- a mail standard -- doesn't entirely apply to news, or won't until 2822 is revised to be less mail-centric. (It's better than it was, but still needs work.) > that mandates based on "we want" are appropriate despite RFC2119... Defining the format and semantics of news articles is our job, and it is appropriate for us to do it. > and that the ability to detect followups is not important. Correct, it's not. The ability to detect intended relationships between articles is important -- that's what References is for -- but deciding whether those relationships came about because an article is a followup to another is not. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HKu3v053290 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59HKuEu053289 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HKtAh053280 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j59HKnZI007210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:49 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506090952360.9342@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >...the text that seems to come closest to capturing the (VERY) rough >consensus of the group is: This is a technical standard. A consensus to be wrong is still wrong. > Unless there are technical issues that have not been raised before, The existing one is sufficient. When did we get to vote on changing the meaning of RFC2822? > ...the definition of "followup" is now closed. Just to make it clear, the official position of this working group is that RFC2822 doesn't say what it does, that mandates based on "we want" are appropriate despite RFC2119, and that the ability to detect followups is not important. I'll also point out that your "definition" is really just the first sentence. The second sentence is not definition, especially when you note that the attribute you are using to define followup is also present in non-followups. You might as well leave the second sentence out; it means nothing and is the cause of the problem. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HKZqY053267 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59HKZAm053266 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HKY0D053260 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A589C61B94 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:20:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28494-09 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:20:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B309261B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:20:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:20:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1032 documenting new fields (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Message-ID: <B48186B03EC57BBF1A42FDB6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506091155.08126.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091155.08126.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have assigned ticket #1032 to this issue. However, I think (personal opinion) that a better approach is to add an appendix to the document stating how the format differs from the one described by RFC 1036. Harald --On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 11:55:07 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, >> and the following sections need to be changed because of that - details >> to be discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > I suggest that the draft text be revised to conform to the Chair's defined > scope as presented in > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0370.html > specifically, that new fields must clearly be marked as such. > > The following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change (to the draft, no change in policy is > suggested) is reiterated: > 3.2.11, 3.2.12, 3.2.13 > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HFuvC052420 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59HFudw052419 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:15:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59HFtlp052403 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED4161B94 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:15:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28510-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:15:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC06261B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:15:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:15:50 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1031 Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Message-ID: <CB35004183F700F7352F9C05@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have assigned ticket #1031 to this suggestion. FYI, the numbers quoted are: FYI 18 - RFC 1983 Internet Users' Glossary (1996) FYI 36 - RFC 2828 Internet Security Glossary (2000) BCP 14 - RFC 2119 Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels BCP 26 - RFC 2434 Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs BCP 72 - RFC 3552 Guidelines for Writing RFC Text on Security Considerations BCP 104 - RFC 4084 Terminology for Describing Internet Connectivity I am looking forward to your specific suggestions on changes based on these documents. This still does NOT qualify as suggesting a text change. --On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 11:17:46 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, >> and the following sections need to be changed because of that - details >> to be discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > I suggest that we use standard terminology and section text as used in > the primary normative references and as documented in current Internet > FYI/BCP glossaries and guidelines (notably FYIs 18, 36, BCPs 14, 26, 72, > 104) and relevant other guidelines and procedures (notably ID-checklist, > ID-Guidelines, "instructions to RFC Authors"). > > The following sections of USEFOR version -03 need to be changed because > of that - details to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: > 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 3, 3.1, 3.1.1, 3.1.2, 3.1.3, 3.1,4, 3.1.5, > 3.1.6, 3.1.7, 3.2, 3.2.1, 3.2.2, 3.2.3, 3.2.4, 3.2.5, 3.2.6, 3.2.7, > 3.2.8, 3.2.9, 3.2.10, 3.2.11, 3.2.12, 3.2.13, 3.3, 3.3.1, maybe 4, > probably 5, An IANA Considerations section is missing but REQUIRED > (per ID-Guidelines and "Instructions to RFC Authors"), 6.2, Appendix A. > > Note that most of the changes are small and could be performed > automatically. In other cases, a section needs to be moved (Appendices > are supposed to appear before references) or added (IANA Considerations). > Several of the changes are due to requirements which are not currently > met by the draft. > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59H3a0n050869 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59H3a8G050868 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59H3ZjF050856 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:03:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1011661B94 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:03:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28343-05 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:03:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0792661B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:03:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:03:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1030 Re: backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Message-ID: <94871903A9251E6D2A11596D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j59H3ajF050863 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have created ticket #1030 with this text. I will attempt to attach any suggestions for specific modifications to the mentioned sections on this basis to that ticket; in order to make this easier, please keep the subject line with #1030 in it. I'm still waiting to hear what specific changes to 2.1 Bruce is suggesting. --On torsdag, juni 09, 2005 11:34:02 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, >> and the following sections need to be changed because of that - details >> to be discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative > references and published extensions, and that any deviations are > clearly indicated via the use of Implementation notes of the general > form suggested here by Mark Crispin: > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html > and that use of BCP 14 imperatives in conjunction with any such > deviations in fact conform to the usage requirements in BCP 14. > > The following sections need to be changed because of that - details > to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: > (probably 1.4), 2.1, 2.2, (small note in 3.6), 3.1.1, 3.1.2, > 3.1.3, 3.1.4, 3.2, 3.2.1, 3.2.3, 3.2.5 > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GOEdV047500 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59GOEmh047499 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GOE36047485 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-249-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.249]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j59GNqgE010401 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A86D19.2080104@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:23:53 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: documenting new fields (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091155.08126.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506091155.08126.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > >>Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and >>the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be >>discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > > I suggest that the draft text be revised to conform to the Chair's defined > scope as presented in > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0370.html > specifically, that new fields must clearly be marked as such. > > The following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change (to the draft, no change in policy is > suggested) is reiterated: > 3.2.11 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Archive.htm > 3.2.12 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/User-Agent.htm > 3.2.13 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Injection-Info.htm Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GMS9c047402 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59GMSY8047401 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GMSOh047386 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-249-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.249]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j59GMHgt010433 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A86CBA.6020407@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:22:18 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.135 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > >>Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and >>the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be >>discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > > I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative > references and published extensions, and that any deviations are > clearly indicated via the use of Implementation notes of the general > form suggested here by Mark Crispin: > http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html > and that use of BCP 14 imperatives in conjunction with any such > deviations in fact conform to the usage requirements in BCP 14. > > The following sections need to be changed because of that - details > to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: > (probably 1.4), http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Syntax_Notation.htm > 2.1 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Base.htm > 2.2 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Headers.htm > (small note in 3.6) Bruce, I can find no section with that number. > 3.1.1 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/From.htm > 3.1.2, http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Date.htm > 3.1.3 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Message-ID.htm > 3.1.4 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Subject.htm > 3.2 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Optional_Headers.htm > 3.2.1 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/References.htm > 3.2.3 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Expires.htm > 3.2.5 http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/Supersedes.htm Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GI8Qd047183 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59GI8K2047182 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59GI7iC047176 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-216-249-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.216.249]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j59GHxBR010643; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A86BB8.7090607@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:18:00 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > >>Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and >>the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be >>discussed when the basic change is accepted". > > > I suggest that we use standard terminology and section text as used in > the primary normative references and as documented in current Internet > FYI/BCP glossaries and guidelines (notably FYIs 18, 36, BCPs 14, 26, 72, > 104) and relevant other guidelines and procedures (notably ID-checklist, > ID-Guidelines, "instructions to RFC Authors"). > > The following sections of USEFOR version -03 need to be changed because > of that - details to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: Bruce listed all sections of version -03, except for 1. Introduction 1.1 Basic Concepts 1.2 Scope 1.3 Requirements Notation 2. Format 6.1 Normative References Links to separated sections of version 03 are available at: http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-03/ Each page has a diff to the immediately previous version, and links to older and newer versions. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FtCLI045628 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:55:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59FtCQE045627 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FtBVN045621 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:55:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7036529A4F; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59FtAoV015470(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:55:10 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Ft9mx015469(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:55:10 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: documenting new fields (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:55:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091155.08126.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and > the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change is accepted". I suggest that the draft text be revised to conform to the Chair's defined scope as presented in http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0370.html specifically, that new fields must clearly be marked as such. The following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be discussed when the basic change (to the draft, no change in policy is suggested) is reiterated: 3.2.11, 3.2.12, 3.2.13 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FomuX045335 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Fom0l045334 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FoljG045328 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j59FobF1011487; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j59FobgI011486; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:50:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) In-Reply-To: <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050609114753.10996C-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative > references and published extensions... > The following sections need to be changed because of that - details > to be discussed when the basic change is accepted... Personally, I find it impossible to evaluate this suggestion without more detail. The suggestion as phrased is nearly meaningless, given that there is no clear indication of what is to be changed or why. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Fl9ar045125 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Fl9tJ045124 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Fl8Ps045118 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B015D2996F; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Fl60c015440(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:47:06 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Fl5Om015439(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:47:06 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:47:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091147.03315.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and > the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change is accepted". I suggest that no later than the publication of the next draft revision, the editors carefully spell-check, proofread, and edit for consistency the draft (e.g. section cross-references are correct, references listed in the references sections are actually referenced, informative/normative references are categorized correctly, etc.). The following excerpts illustrate some of the issues; these issues should be corrected by the Editors before being presented to the WG: 1.2: "An best" is not English ISO 3166 is used normatively in section 3.2.6 but is listed as informative. The suggestion of course affects the entire draft. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FY8bR044036 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59FY8vt044035 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FY74p044026 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDBD29AEC; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59FY5cw015360(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:34:05 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59FY54U015359(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:34:05 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: backward compatibility and handling incompatibilities (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:34:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091134.03114.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j59FY84p044030 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and > the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change is accepted". I suggest we conform as closely as possible to our primary normative references and published extensions, and that any deviations are clearly indicated via the use of Implementation notes of the general form suggested here by Mark Crispin: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html and that use of BCP 14 imperatives in conjunction with any such deviations in fact conform to the usage requirements in BCP 14. The following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: (probably 1.4), 2.1, 2.2, (small note in 3.6), 3.1.1, 3.1.2, 3.1.3, 3.1.4, 3.2, 3.2.1, 3.2.3, 3.2.5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FHs9i042470 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:17:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59FHsUm042469 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59FHsD8042460 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:17:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0A12992F; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59FHpFt015050(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:17:51 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59FHpui015049(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:17:51 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: standard terminology and text (was #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:17:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091117.47710.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 09:40, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and > the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be > discussed when the basic change is accepted". I suggest that we use standard terminology and section text as used in the primary normative references and as documented in current Internet FYI/BCP glossaries and guidelines (notably FYIs 18, 36, BCPs 14, 26, 72, 104) and relevant other guidelines and procedures (notably ID-checklist, ID-Guidelines, "instructions to RFC Authors"). The following sections of USEFOR version -03 need to be changed because of that - details to be discussed when the basic change is accepted: 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 3, 3.1, 3.1.1, 3.1.2, 3.1.3, 3.1,4, 3.1.5, 3.1.6, 3.1.7, 3.2, 3.2.1, 3.2.2, 3.2.3, 3.2.4, 3.2.5, 3.2.6, 3.2.7, 3.2.8, 3.2.9, 3.2.10, 3.2.11, 3.2.12, 3.2.13, 3.3, 3.3.1, maybe 4, probably 5, An IANA Considerations section is missing but REQUIRED (per ID-Guidelines and "Instructions to RFC Authors"), 6.2, Appendix A. Note that most of the changes are small and could be performed automatically. In other cases, a section needs to be moved (Appendices are supposed to appear before references) or added (IANA Considerations). Several of the changes are due to requirements which are not currently met by the draft. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59EsJMq040929 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59EsJTg040928 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59EsI8e040921 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A36961B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:54:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26513-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:54:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4E461B95 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:54:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:54:10 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Admin: Posters this week Message-ID: <E92483D9BD18E63FE52960EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> FYI, because some might find it interesting: Here's the list of posters to the mailing list for the last 7 days. Searching for msgs since 02-Jun-2005 1 38 23.31 "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> 2 27 39.88 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> 3 22 53.37 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> 4 22 66.87 Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> 5 18 77.91 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> 6 9 83.44 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> 7 8 88.34 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> 8 6 92.02 Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> 9 5 95.09 Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> 10 4 97.55 "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> 11 2 98.77 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> 12 1 99.39 Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> 13 1 100.00 Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> I'll provide this as a regular (weekly?) feature.... it's nice to have a running idea of who "everyone" is..... Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Em4q8040414 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Em4Ig040413 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Em38V040404 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112A961B95 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:48:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26313-09 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:48:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF67661B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:48:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:47:54 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 References: Final text on "followup" Message-ID: <00DF49EE2D14EBC47C06773D@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In reviewing the thread, the text that seems to come closest to capturing the (VERY) rough consensus of the group is: A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup articles may also use a References header). I have also noted that there is no discernible consensus for the text Charles suggested addition to the top of the References section (attempting to explain what References is used for); it will not be added as part of this decision. Unless there are technical issues that have not been raised before, this is the instruction from the WG chairs to the editor of the USEFOR document, and the subject of the definition of "followup" is now closed. Any new messages on the subject of the definition of "followup" that do not raise new technical issues will be treated as off-topic postings. Harald & Alexey Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59EEjMt037399 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59EEjsj037398 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59EEiae037392 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5B861B95; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:14:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25903-08; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:14:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D35261B94; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:14:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:14:40 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Forward compatibility (Re: CFWS in References header) Message-ID: <1381134149C06582165D8FDE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 08, 2005 13:52:02 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > I think you need to consider a more general issue. > > There are various places where our draft mandates behaviour that is not in > accordance with current practice; in all such cases, it is necessary to > consider what transitional arrangements need to be put in place. > > The issue here is where we are mandating that something MUST be accepted, > and where the transitional behaviour is of the form "but do not generate > it yet", for some value of "yet". The cases in this category are: > > 1. <comment>s in References. > 2. Naked '.' in <phrase>s. > 3. Folding of the Newsgroups header. > So we either say "MUST NOT generate" for them all, or > we say "SHOULD NOT generate" plus verbiage, or > we say that Newsgroups (for example) is urgent, and gets "SHOULD NOT", > whereas nobody is actually wanting to put <comment>s in References, so > "MUST NOT" will do there. After this many years of this WG trying to provide *one* revision, I wonder about the likelyhood of there ever being another...... What's more likely to happen is that someone produces a News extension, which updates USEFOR saying "this MUST NOT generate is now changed to a MAY". This is standard practice for protocol extensions. > But it has also been pointed out (Harald will have seen an email from > Alexey on this) that even "SHOULD NOT" is too strong for Newsgroups > folding, since it gives no incentive to implement the "MUST accept". > > So there is the gamut of possibilities. They need to be considered > together. IMHO, and speaking for myself-as-participant only: Realistically, either newsgroups folding is useful or it is not. If it is not, there is no incentive to implement it no matter what the standard says. If it is useful, there is incentive to implement it. If it is very useful, someone might even be bothered to write an 1-page RFC saying "Newsgroup folding is now permitted". But I very much doubt it. We have better things to do than to encourage the implementation of useless features. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59E0qeN036069 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59E0q6f036068 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59E0oMk036062 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:00:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101BF61B99 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:00:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25721-04 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD4E61B94 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:00:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 15:40:34 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <C3A4C8FA7F3318A50268F44B@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> <E03EA07893D20450D6251A0D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 9. juni 2005 08:36 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> (Repeat mantra: When arguing a point, plese specify what section you >> want changed, what text you want changes to, and what you want it >> changed to.) > > As in Andrew's comments, many of the issues are general and affect > multiple sections. Then make multiple suggestions, or say "I suggest we make this change, and the following sections need to be changed because of that - details to be discussed when the basic change is accepted". I can imagine a number of different ways in which section 2.1 of USEFOR could be formulated based on your comments. But you're the one who wants it changed (or, if I have misunderstood you, you don't want it changed). Until you propose a change, I can't tell. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Cb4XZ018654 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j59Cb4am018653 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:37:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j59Cb2b3018640 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA5229937; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59Cb0Cd013930(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:37:00 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j59CaxOO013929(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:36:59 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:36:40 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> <E03EA07893D20450D6251A0D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <E03EA07893D20450D6251A0D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506090836.43929.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Thu June 9 2005 01:35, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Is this what you are arguing for when you say "exactly as RFC 2822"? > Or are you arguing that in the specific case of obs-phrase, USEFOR should > say "MUST accept, but MUST NOT generate", just like RFC 2822 says? In the specific case of obs-phrase, the rules should be the same as RFC 2822, but that need not be achieved by repeating what 2822 says -- indeed a simple reference to 2822 is preferable. This particular provision of 2822 is a parse-only provision made to accommodate previously illegal but commonly generated syntax errors. One WG participant has made a big deal out of that minor point; it is clear from 2822 text what the rationale is for its inclusion, as it is clear that the obs- syntax is a parse grammar separate from the generate grammar. In general, as I have said many times, we should conform to 2822 (and other relevant RFCs), and the above is a particular instance of that general principle. That principle applies to various aspects of our work including terminology (2822, MIME, FYIs 18 & 36, etc.) , message format, and so on. The reasons for doing so have been discussed in this WG many times by many participants and include: o the principle of least astonishment o backward compatibility with widely deployed, Standards Track protocols (e.g. IMAP) [I note that our charter specifies "with particular attention to backward compatibility"] o likelihood of achieving IETF consensus and passing IESG review A sampling of relevant discussions from the WG archives: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0209.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0374.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0827.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0370.html ----------- excerpts (not in web archive) ----------------- Subject: Re: Final Last Last Last Call From: Andrew Gierth <andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> Date: 01 Aug 2002 19:27:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87r8hisacf.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> [...] Back in November last year I made this proposal: ---- I propose the following major changes: 1. Strike all basic syntax and punt it back to the mail standards. Remove any changes that would have the effect of allowing UTF-8 in headers meaningful to mail. Instead, explicitly provide for the use of UTF-8 in Newsgroups and Followup-To, and provide _exactly one_ mapping to a format compatible with mail, to allow gateways to handle it, and to allow servers to reject Newsgroups lines which have been munged for mail purposes. As regards UTF-8 in other fields, point out that it should be a future direction, that there are currently issues with interoperability with mail, but that both standards should be aiming to migrate towards UTF-8 (or some such wording). 2. Strike all statements of policy or default policy, and all statements that refer to actions of the administrator rather than the software. In a few of the cases it may be appropriate to substitute recommendations. 3. Generally aim to reduce the document's size; it is far too big. 4. Strike the new path stuff and standardise the existing practice. Reliance on '!' turns out to be _extremely_ widespread. ---- At the time, I count only four direct responses to this proposal: expressions of agreement from Russ Allbery and Ralph Babel, and disagreement from Henry Spencer and Charles Lindsey. Personally I regard that as indicating pretty strongly that there is not, in fact, a genuine consensus behind the current document, and the subsequent (but months later) adoption of changes that parallel my proposal (1) (but without the simplifying benefits of referring back to the mail standards) adds weight to this. -- Andrew. -------------------------------------------------- > (Repeat mantra: When arguing a point, plese specify what section you want > changed, what text you want changes to, and what you want it changed to.) As in Andrew's comments, many of the issues are general and affect multiple sections. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5974vP5098031 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5974vwD098030 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5974uYA098013 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D09D61B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:04:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20337-03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AB561B58 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:04:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:04:18 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <E832A262E45FA343009B7A57@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506081911.02150.blilly@erols.com> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <200506081911.02150.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 8. juni 2005 19:11 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> > A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not >> > a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. >> >> Bruce, >> >> remember the article I posted on May 27? > > Yes, I remember; I suspect that there are more than 9 people on the > mailing list, and I know some (e.g. me) didn't respond. Some of us > monkeys are tired of chasing the same weasel around the same mulberry > bush, year after year. Yep. That's why I'm trying to nail it to the tree. And make it stay nailed. FWIW, the mailing list had 49 members a few weeks ago, and 20 people have so far responded to my call for participants. > IIRC, the discussion after your message went > down the usual "thread by Subject" rathole. > > If you like you can put me in the "1)" column with a note that there > is disagreement with the alternatives for the reasons mentioned in > recent discussion (those alternatives do not provide an objective > term, hence not a useful term). Thanks. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j595ZCZ1055803 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j595ZCZo055802 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j595ZBYW055786 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B48661B92 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19310-03 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C09161B79 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:35:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:35:06 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <E03EA07893D20450D6251A0D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 08, 2005 19:14:01 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > On Wed June 8 2005 07:13, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> - Bruce Lilly argues against a deviation (I think). > > To clarify, my strong preference is "exactly as RFC 2822". > I'm willing to entertain other options, so long as there is an > accompanying well-reasoned argument for a deviation from 2822. > "exactly as RFC 2822" means changing the "MAY accept" for the obs-syntax in section 2.1 to a "MUST accept". RFC 2822 section 1.3 says: Section 4 of this document specifies an "obsolete" syntax. There are references in section 3 to these obsolete syntactic elements. The rules of the obsolete syntax are elements that have appeared in earlier revisions of this standard or have previously been widely used in Internet messages. As such, these elements MUST be interpreted by parsers of messages in order to be conformant to this standard. However, since items in this syntax have been determined to be non-interoperable or to cause significant problems for recipients of messages, they MUST NOT be generated by creators of conformant messages. Is this what you are arguing for when you say "exactly as RFC 2822"? Or are you arguing that in the specific case of obs-phrase, USEFOR should say "MUST accept, but MUST NOT generate", just like RFC 2822 says? (Repeat mantra: When arguing a point, plese specify what section you want changed, what text you want changes to, and what you want it changed to.) Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j594alvI032595 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j594allv032594 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j594ajB7032588 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233892997B; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j594aiLr028358(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:36:44 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j594ahUZ028357(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:36:43 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:36:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506090036.38169.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 09:52, Charles Lindsey wrote: > The cases in this category are: > > 1. <comment>s in References. > 2. Naked '.' in <phrase>s. > 3. Folding of the Newsgroups header. > So what is an appropriate transitional arrangement for those three? [...] > Our first reaction was to propose some cutoff date after which they could > be freely generated, but we were told that the IESG did not like Flag > Days. > > OTOH, we did not like the idea of "do not generate until the next standard > comes out" (expressible as "MUST NOT generate") because #3, in particular, > really needed a more urgent fix than that [...] It is possible to go from Proposed to Draft in six months. > So the position we took was that people should start generating them when, > in their opinion, they would work well enough [...]. I suspect that in a Standards Track document "do whatever you please" isn't going to pass muster. Less so, I suspect, than a flag day. > So there is the gamut of possibilities. They need to be considered > together. No, there are other possibilities, including, but not limited to: o provide a roadmap (X at Proposed, Y at Draft, Z at Full Standard). Harald can probably give some guidance as to how well that would be received by the IESG, but failing something like that, there is a good chance that each such change would require a reset to Proposed o Implementation notes as suggested by Mark Crispin: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0486.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0554.html o Implementations are of course free to ignore the specification provided they don't claim to conform to it o As already suggested in discussion, specifically w.r.t. dot in a phrase, "do nothing" (aside from "[RFC2822]") may be a reasonable option Specifically regarding the References field and comments, what is the scope of the issue? Transport agents are unaffected. Any considerations appear to be confined to UAs, and as the field plays no critical role in protocol (certainly not warranting BCP 14 imperatives), "[RFC2822]" (for implementations that wish to claim conformance) may suffice [note that a) comments have always been permitted per RFC 822 as adopted by 850/1036, b) many UAs are combined mail/news UAs and already necessarily handle comments (unless they're broken UAs), and c) message-generating UAs generally do not insert comments in References fields, so the only likely source is a human manually editing a field]. It doesn't seem worth spending much time on -- not beyond an implementation note at most. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j593bH1a029281 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j593bH9s029280 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j593bGAJ029273 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B162990F; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j593bDkL027773(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:37:13 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j593bC5q027772(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:37:13 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:37:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071419.09372.blilly@erols.com> <IHrqwL.Lor@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHrqwL.Lor@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506082337.10360.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 10:00, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <200506071419.09372.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >For the purpose of the USEFOR (syntax & semantics) document, it suffices to > >specify the syntax and semantics (obviously?). For the purpose of the > >USEPRO (protocol) document, one could add an implementation note such as: > > > When modifying a References field, care must be taken to ensure that the > > result complies with the syntax specification for the field, specifically > > that line length limits are observed and that no msg-id is truncated or > > subjected to internal line folding. > > I agree that any mention of pruning is a matter for USEPRO rather than > USEFOR. What I currently propose to say, at Frank's request (see suggested > text posted earlier) is that you MAY prune (subject to keeping the first > and the last two), and that you MUST prune to keep it within 998 > (including folded lines, because of the kind of breakage I described). > > I think it goes without saying that whatever results must be syntactically > correct, and so there can be no folding within a msg-id. The specific case you mentioned involved a transport agent that folded a long line at 990 (N.B. not 998) octets, which happened to be in the middle of a msg-id. The suggested text above specifically covers that case. If you're not now concerned about that, one wonders why you brought it up... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590obGd018167 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j590obOJ018166 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590obTM018160 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j590oaH4008690 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:50:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 9891 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 00:50:36 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:42:02 GMT") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:50:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87k6l42w0z.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > It is just not realistic to suppose that servers in Australia will > interpret "EST" according to RFC 2822 (they will probably just hand the > zone off to the OS, and for sure that will take an Australian view of > time zones). I have never seen any news software that does this, and furthermore, given that there is no OS facility short of changing TZ for the process that could make head or tails of "EST" on Unix at least, I disbelieve in the existence of software that takes this approach. Software uses a hard-coded table listing time zone abbreviations and the corresonding offsets. That's the way all news (and e-mail, for that matter) software I've ever seen has done this. It's possible that there's something out there that doesn't do things this way, but I'm still very dubious that any sort of fallback to some OS facility is involved. Furthermore, if you set TZ to EST in Australia, you most likely get the same US zone as you would get anywhere else, since OS manufacturers are not in the habit of modifying POSIX time zones depending on your locale. For actual time zone configuration, nearly everyone switched to the Olson approach a long time ago (which means you use things like America/New_York, not EST). -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590hXxk017576 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j590hXcW017575 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590hWhp017569 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF6D29973 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j590hVUU026965(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:31 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j590hUIC026964(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:31 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:43:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506081026140.25556@a.shell.peak.org> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506081026140.25556@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506082043.28124.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 13:46, John Stanley wrote: > > "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > > >And may I also say that the text that Bruce has quoted from the earlier > >drafts was written *before* someone came on this list to point out the use > >of References in multi-part FAQs (a practice I had not been aware of, but > >which seemed eminently sensible). > > It is such a common practice that I cannot imagine that anyone familiar > enough with news operations to be participating in rewriting the news > standards would not know about it. I certainly did. I don't recall anyone > saying "what a great surprise" when this was pointed out. We did say "we > ought not prohibit this", and that's why I proposed a few word change to > the definition of followup to include existing practice but not exclude > the ability to detect followups altogether. Matches my recollection. > >The *whole* of our discussions, proposed changes, etc. since then have > >arisen as a direct result of what that someone (I cannot recall who it > >was) said. > > Removing the MUST/MUST NOT section was not the result of any discussion. Ditto. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590eSA4017425 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j590eSGV017424 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590eSSn017417 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E484329952; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j590eObg026943(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:40:24 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j590eN2M026942(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:40:23 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Date-time yet again Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:40:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506082040.19825.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 10:42, Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >On Mon June 6 2005 12:36, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> >> You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. > >> > >> >Already covered by 2822. > >> > >> Indeed, but worth reiterating because it would actually break the > >> protocols. > > >Precisely how would "PDT" "break the protocols" in a way that "UT" > >would not? > > I am not aware what other zones use "PDT", but [...] Charles, stop trying to evade the issue. You made a claim with no supporting evidence or reasoning, and you have been politely asked to produce such evidence or reasoning. Instead, you have tried to evade the issue. Will you kindly either provide a supporting line of reasoning for your stated claim about PDT ("any of the other things in <obs-zone>"), or failing that, retract your claim. Your changing the subject to avoid addressing the issue is a waste of time, which is a scarce resource. Nevertheless, to put this to bed... > It is just not realistic to suppose that servers in Australia will > interpret "EST" according to RFC 2822 (they will probably just hand the > zone off to the OS, and for sure that will take an Australian view of > time zones). No, as Russ has already pointed out to you, the zones specified in RFCs 561, 724, 733, 822 (as amended by 1123) and 2822 have a specific protocol-defined meaning in date-time. They do not, and never have had, semantics of "just hand the zone off to the OS". As John os fond of pointing out, software that does such things is just plain broken and is therefore irrelevant to our standards work. > >> I could easily be persuaded to promote > >> it to MUST NOT if someone asks for it. Are you formally proposing that? > > >I have said about as clearly as possible that I feel that we should > >conform to RFC 2822 format as closely as possible. Since 2822 clearly > >says MUST NOT generate for alphabetic zone indication, yes, that is > >what I have proposed. Specifically, I propose no deviations from > >RFC 2822 regarding date-time format. > > Then you have failed to answer the question I asked, which was in relation > to "UT" only. Do you see a special exception anywhere in RFC 2822 for "UT" vis-a-vis MUST NOT generate? Exactly which part of the word "yes" do you fail to grasp? > "GMT" and "UT" are safe, in that _everybody_ understands them [...] > "GMT" is a special case, insofar as it is not ambiguous and is widely > used. Last time I checked, there were at least a dozen well-known places named Greenwich. To use your (fallacious) argument, a (broken) news server could presume that GMT meant the time at some local "Greenwich". > >> This WG decided. more years ago than I care to remember, that it was > >> ludicrous to REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept > >> constructes that had Never Ever been seen in Netnews. > > >You are mistaken in your implied assertion that handling of the standard > >alphabetic zones for parsing would would be "constructes [sic] that had > >Never [sic] Ever [sic] been seen in Netnews". > > Again, you avoid the issue by changing the question. I have not changed anything, including the typos. > We decided that > obs-syntax in general was a Bad Thing, and it would be an imposition to > demand that news agents should accept it all regardless (a point you > yourself once made, as you will doubtless recall). I do not recall any such thing (*illegal* syntax is another matter, and a requirement for parsing coupled with a prohibition against generation in a document produced by a body that has no enforcement arm cannot constitute a "demand"). [quotes from RFCs 850 and 1036 noting that date fields must conform to RFC 822] > So what? There may well have been articles with strange zones in the past; We're not talking about "strange zones", we're discussing (now deprecated) standard alphabetic zone abbreviations. The relevant news article format specification RFCs have always incorporated those -- there are in date-time no "constructes [sic] that had Never [sic] Ever [sic] been seen in Netnews" as you claimed. Your accusation that I am "changing the question" is out of place -- you are again trying to change the subject instead of either defending or retracting your earlier claim. No dice. Stick to the subject. Either substantiate your claim that using RFC 2822 date-time verbatim would "REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept constructes [sic] that had Never [sic] Ever [sic] been seen in Netnews" or retract that claim. You may start with any particular category of "all News software" and proceed to the others in any order of your choosing. > >As Russ has noted, there is *substantial* existing usage of alphabetic > >zone abbreviations. > > No, he has not noted that. Usage of GMT is indeed "substantial", but not > the others. Quote from <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>: There is substantial existing usage of PST/MST/EST too. You have called me a liar. I have substantiated my claim. Are you also calling Russ a liar? > >> That decision have never been challenged since then. Why are you raising > >> it now? > > >Again, this has been discussed before. > > References please. --------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <33F8D858.528E6BB2@fdc.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:18:48 +0100 From: Ian Davis <iand@fdc.co.uk> Resent-Message-ID: <"COQv_2.0.0F3.rWD-p"@ambient> Resent-From: usenet-format@clari.net Here's my first cut at a draft for the Date header. I have taken two liberties with the format of the time zone the implications of which will need examining. Both of these are with a view to bringing the date format closer to the ISO 8601 date and time standard and also to the latest drums draft. They are: removing the space between the time and the timezone and removing UT and GMT and other timezone names. I am fairly confident that these changes are backwards compatible [...] --------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:47:44 -0700 From: Brad Templeton <brad@templetons.com> Subject: Re: RFC 2822 consequentials Message-ID: <20010515214744.L24940@main.templetons.com> [...] > Charles Lindsey <chl@clw.cs.man.ac.uk> writes: > > > [There are just a few tidyings up in that syntax; nothing significant. > > Observe that we rely on RFC 2822 for the syntaxt of date-time, excluding > > their obs-syntax. This means we do not allow 2-digit years (and rightly > > so) but we also do not allow ancient timezones such as GMT (it all has > > to be +0100 now). Do we want to relax that a little?] [...] Well, since lots of people are generating timezones like this, it would have to be a rule to accept them, but not generate them. --------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <3D7EE51F.3020201@alex.blilly.com> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:39:27 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Subject: More draft 8 issues [...] Also, 2.4.2's description of the 2822 obsolete syntax is somewhat puzzling; 2822 clearly states that the obs- forms MUST NOT be used in generation of new text messages, but MUST be recognized (so as to enable parsing of old messages). 2.4.2 claims that the draft excludes the obsolete syntax, then says that it MAY be recognized, and then there are instances where obsolete syntax is *mandated* by the draft (e.g. "UT" and "GMT" for zone in 5.1). [...] --------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: draft-kohn-news-article-01a.txt From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:42:21 -0800 Message-ID: <ylsmtv6ruq.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> [...] > Section 3.3: > Singling out "GMT" seems odd; other 822 alphabetic zones are also in > common use. It would perhaps be both simpler and better to say 2822's > obs-zone MUST be recognized (but MUST NOT be generated). I think you're probably right here. There was extensive discussion of this a while back in the USEFOR archives, including quite a few real numbers on the Date headers seen on the wire. [...] --------------------------------------------------- That's a sample of discussions of the same date-time, obs-zone issue spanning six *YEARS* (not including the current discussion). > >> IIRC, it was you who asked for <obs-zone> to be brought within our > >> standard. > > >References, please. > > www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0221.html That message has nothing whatsoever to do with obs-zone (the term is nowhere mentioned in that message, nor is the subject matter). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590G2kD016088 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j590G2mh016087 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j590G1id016081 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j590G0ZW000349 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:16:00 -0700 Received: (qmail 9080 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2005 00:16:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? In-Reply-To: <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:20:17 -0400") References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: <877jh44c73.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j590G1id016082 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > That reminds me; the corresponding [ECMP]ST (case-insensitive) versions > should probably also be counted. Some places (e.g. the U.S. state of > Indiana) do not observe daylight savings time, and some software is so > broken that it uses the wrong zones, or fails to take account of (or is > configured to fail to take account of) DST. Indiana, incidentally, uses > EST year-round. Okay, okay, fine. :) #JUNK# are various date lines that could not be parsed into a time zone by my simple algorithm (most of them didn't specify a time zone at all, but some of them had other problems, like not zero-padding the seconds in the timestamp). Hopefully this will give people a new appreciation for just how much bizarre junk is out there on the wire. #JUNK#: 1553 (00.0%) +-0400: 10 (00.0%) +000: 8 (00.0%) +0000: 165048 (04.5%) +0001: 1 (00.0%) +0028: 1 (00.0%) +0100: 190268 (05.2%) +0102: 1 (00.0%) +0200: 563629 (15.3%) +0300: 12204 (00.3%) +0307: 1 (00.0%) +0400: 5279 (00.1%) +0430: 21 (00.0%) +0500: 477 (00.0%) +0530: 881 (00.0%) +0545: 421 (00.0%) +0600: 675 (00.0%) +0630: 1 (00.0%) +0700: 1174 (00.0%) +0800: 39837 (01.1%) +0900: 7291 (00.2%) +0900(KST): 1 (00.0%) # This is legit, just a flaw in my script +0930: 2695 (00.1%) +0950: 77 (00.0%) +100: 2 (00.0%) +1000: 29806 (00.8%) +1030: 3 (00.0%) +1100: 75 (00.0%) +1200: 8782 (00.2%) +1300: 5 (00.0%) +1400: 18 (00.0%) -0000: 18257 (00.5%) -0001: 25 (00.0%) -0002: 1 (00.0%) -0100: 64 (00.0%) -0200: 63 (00.0%) -0230: 461 (00.0%) -0300: 4596 (00.1%) -0400: 262862 (07.1%) -0500: 122173 (03.3%) -0600: 29009 (00.8%) -0700: 1116599 (30.3%) -0756: 1 (00.0%) -0800: 269930 (07.3%) -0900: 13 (00.0%) -1000: 684 (00.0%) -1100: 1 (00.0%) -1200: 45 (00.0%) -500: 6 (00.0%) BRST: 2 (00.0%) BST: 59 (00.0%) CDT: 22 (00.0%) CEST: 18 (00.0%) CET: 7 (00.0%) CST: 4224 (00.1%) EASTERN: 1 (00.0%) EDT: 31806 (00.9%) EET: 1 (00.0%) EST: 40 (00.0%) GM: 84 (00.0%) GMT: 782196 (21.3%) GMT): 7 (00.0%) GMT+0000: 35 (00.0%) GMT+1: 65 (00.0%) GMT+2: 1 (00.0%) GMT+6: 60 (00.0%) GMT-6: 3 (00.0%) JST: 3 (00.0%) LOCAL: 3 (00.0%) MDT: 1 (00.0%) MEST: 1 (00.0%) MET: 6 (00.0%) MEZ: 56 (00.0%) MST: 3 (00.0%) NZS: 1 (00.0%) PDT: 214 (00.0%) PST: 2834 (00.1%) UNDEFINED: 9 (00.0%) UT: 13 (00.0%) UTC: 3733 (00.1%) ¥X¥_¼Ð·Ç®É¶¡: 1 (00.0%) This data was collected with: find . -name \*.DAT | xargs cut -f 4 \ | sed -e 's/.*:[0-9][0-9] //' -e 's/ (.*//' \ | perl -n /tmp/script where /tmp/script is: chomp; if (\!$_ || / /) { $_ = "#junk#"; } $zones{uc $_}++; $total++; END { for (sort keys %zones) { printf "%12s: %7d (%04.1f%%)\n", $_, $zones{$_}, $zones{$_} / $total * 100 } } I write better code when I expect to ever use it again. :) The large numbers of PST compared to PDT is probably an artifact of my spool retention; I have a bunch of local newsgroups that I keep forever, I'm in the Pacific time zone, and I'm at a university where almost all of our traffic is not during daylight saving time. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NKMNW012328 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58NKMeK012327 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:20:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NKMHf012321 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A7E29957; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NKLo5026580(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:20:21 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NKKOw026579(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:20:20 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:20:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081920.17862.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 07:24, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Russ Allbery computed the following numbers: [...] > EDT: 30721 > MDT: 1 > CDT: 21 > PDT: 216 > > Which is more than I thought. MDT, CDT, and PDT are a lot less than I > thought. Apparently someone does actually use UT, but maybe only one > person. :) > > These numbers could argue for skipping UT and/or including EDT (and > presumabily EST, since this measurement was taken in summer). That reminds me; the corresponding [ECMP]ST (case-insensitive) versions should probably also be counted. Some places (e.g. the U.S. state of Indiana) do not observe daylight savings time, and some software is so broken that it uses the wrong zones, or fails to take account of (or is configured to fail to take account of) DST. Indiana, incidentally, uses EST year-round. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NE57F011650 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58NE514011649 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NE4jl011643 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7805A29905; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NE3CB026446(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:14:03 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NE2Is026445(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:14:03 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:14:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081914.01514.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 07:13, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > - Bruce Lilly argues against a deviation (I think). To clarify, my strong preference is "exactly as RFC 2822". I'm willing to entertain other options, so long as there is an accompanying well-reasoned argument for a deviation from 2822. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NB7Yf011451 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58NB7Yw011450 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58NB6gJ011444 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6416429952; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NB4nO026418(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:11:04 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58NB3Th026417(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:11:04 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:11:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081911.02150.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 01:59, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > --On 7. juni 2005 14:12 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > > > The bottom line is that the net result is what our drafts said > > for quite some time and which enjoyed consensus, viz. > > > > A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not > > a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. > > Bruce, > > remember the article I posted on May 27? Yes, I remember; I suspect that there are more than 9 people on the mailing list, and I know some (e.g. me) didn't respond. Some of us monkeys are tired of chasing the same weasel around the same mulberry bush, year after year. IIRC, the discussion after your message went down the usual "thread by Subject" rathole. If you like you can put me in the "1)" column with a note that there is disagreement with the alternatives for the reasons mentioned in recent discussion (those alternatives do not provide an objective term, hence not a useful term). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MxNCt010703 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58MxNuC010702 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MxMmP010695 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F652997B; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58MxKPd026324(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:59:20 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58MxJIv026323(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:59:20 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:59:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081859.17995.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 02:29, Frank Ellermann wrote: > >| MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. > >| Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters > >| like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined > >| in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass simple algorithms > >| trying to analyze MIME parts. [...] > That was meant as a request, not only as a proposal. But the > wording is of course open for debate. Wording is a problem, given the fact that 2231 (and errata) have amended 2045 and 2046. The issue could more accurately be phrased as naive methods of handling parameters, i.e. those which do not take errata, RFC 2231, and more errata into account are likely to botch some legal MIME messages. To keep Charles on his toes, one might also remark about the need to correctly handle all relevant base message format (RFC 2822) constructs, and specifically mention that "find the first semicolon" is not a viable approach. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MpZwa010157 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58MpZDl010156 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:51:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MpWBZ010145 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C1829973; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58MpQ8R026280(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:51:26 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58MpQ9G026279(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:51:26 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:51:23 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHpt0I.7nK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <5E8CC1FF1C846ABF3D954EC0@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <5E8CC1FF1C846ABF3D954EC0@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081851.23502.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 01:53, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > Actually RFC 2822 gets away with only giving a construction algorithm. But N.B. that is given for a particular case: When creating a reply to a message,... which is not the only case: ...and the message identifiers of other messages (for example, in the case of a reply to a message which was itself a reply). (N.B. "for example"). [not arguing for anything other than "[RFC2822]", just cautioning against reading too much into what 2822 says] Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MjrOl009744 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58Mjrno009743 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58MjpLM009737 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:45:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7AB82990F; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58Mjnmo026228(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:45:49 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j58MjnUo026227(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:45:49 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:45:47 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A67370.126E@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A67370.126E@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506081845.47742.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 8 2005 00:26, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> Whatever it is, this is not always and not necessarily the > >> case. > > > Yes it is. > > No, it's not. It's a msg-id-list. With the (draft) provision(s) for eliding random ids, it is just a list. Without that provision (i.e. if all ids are required to be retained), *AND* with sufficient external information (gathered from all referenced articles, therefore requiring access to all such articles), one could theoretically generate a directed graph. It might plausibly contain one or more cycles. Even with such extreme measures to generate a graph, the ids comprising a References field body remain a list. > > If you are not trying to describe at least a DAG (of which > > trees and linear lists are a particular case), No. A tree is not necessarily directed (unrooted trees are not, rooted trees are). Lists are sets, and do not possess edges, much less directed edges. See http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeAlgDS/Graph/ > It has _no_ idea what the old references were. And that's only > the normal case. Under less normal conditions I could put some > "related Message-IDs" manually in the references, for "retrieval" > as you said. It's strictly my business. Yes, "other messages" (RFC 2822), not "earlier messages" or "previous messages". Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58JBeQS093835 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:11:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58JBewj093834 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:11:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58JBdI0093821 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j58JBc26014540 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:11:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 28513 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2005 19:11:38 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header In-Reply-To: <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:52:02 GMT") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:11:38 -0700 Message-ID: <8764woack5.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > OTOH, we did not like the idea of "do not generate until the next > standard comes out" (expressible as "MUST NOT generate") because #3, in > particular, really needed a more urgent fix than that (the Newsgroups > header is the only one of all the mail and news headers that cannot be > folded, and people are still astounded to be told that it still breaks > existing software - even INN has only fixed it in the last 12 months > AFAIAA). I think I've mentioned this before, but maybe not. INN still does not accept folded newsgroup headers, since that would mean accepting an article that's just going to get rejected by the next news server and fail silently. Be conservative in what one generates, etc. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58J4ACL093391 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58J4Au6093390 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58J49vJ093382 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j58J49AV025562 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:09 -0700 Received: (qmail 28218 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2005 19:04:08 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:13:20 +0200") References: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:04:08 -0700 Message-ID: <87acm0acwn.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > Of the flurry of messages on this subject line, I found exactly two > responses that pertained to the subject of the original ticket: > - Charles would like to somehow elevate obs-phrase (which allows dot) from > the "MAY accept/MUST NOT generate" implied by the current text to a status > that says "MUST accept", and either SHOULD NOT or MUST NOT generate. > - Bruce Lilly argues against a deviation (I think). > Are these the only two voices on the subject? Deviating from RFC 2822 seems *really* pointless here. Although, again, this is one of those cases where no standard describes the crap that people currently use in From headers and that news software accepts. INN is almost alone in even bothering to look for something that looks like an e-mail address, and it only does that on posting. Things like: From: No one are common-place. So arguing over including or not including the period seems like a waste of time; unless we're going to bless "use whatever you want," (which I'm not arguing in favor of) no deviation from RFC 2822 is going to get us close enough to existing practice to be worth the pain. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58IoKst092303 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58IoK8v092302 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58IoKUb092296 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j58IoJiO019250 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:50:19 -0700 Received: (qmail 26429 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2005 18:50:18 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: OT: "UT" In-Reply-To: <200506081716.j58HGSE05294@panix5.panix.com> (Seth Breidbart's message of "Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:16:28 -0400 (EDT)") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506081716.j58HGSE05294@panix5.panix.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:50:18 -0700 Message-ID: <87hdg8adjp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> writes: > "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> But the clear prepondenance of GMT (21% of the total) is >> notable. But where is the notorious "EST"? > It's Daylight Saving Time in the US, so EST is EDT (the second most > common in the list). (That also says something about the frequency > of Australia's EST, since it's their winter now.) I didn't even check for EST. Since I have a fairly long expire for some groups (forever for a few), it won't tell you anything certain, though, even if I did check. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58HkZXl087176 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58HkZgD087175 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58HkY2F087165 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j58HkTwJ065070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506081026140.25556@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >And may I also say that the text that Bruce has quoted from the earlier >drafts was written *before* someone came on this list to point out the use >of References in multi-part FAQs (a practice I had not been aware of, but >which seemed eminently sensible). It is such a common practice that I cannot imagine that anyone familiar enough with news operations to be participating in rewriting the news standards would not know about it. I certainly did. I don't recall anyone saying "what a great surprise" when this was pointed out. We did say "we ought not prohibit this", and that's why I proposed a few word change to the definition of followup to include existing practice but not exclude the ability to detect followups altogether. >The *whole* of our discussions, proposed changes, etc. since then have >arisen as a direct result of what that someone (I cannot recall who it >was) said. Removing the MUST/MUST NOT section was not the result of any discussion. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58HGUIO082646 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58HGU2d082645 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58HGTfE082637 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893B258B1C for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j58HGSE05294; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506081716.j58HGSE05294@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: OT: "UT" References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > But the clear prepondenance of GMT (21% of the total) is > notable. But where is the notorious "EST"? It's Daylight Saving Time in the US, so EST is EDT (the second most common in the list). (That also says something about the frequency of Australia's EST, since it's their winter now.) Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FduKa073100 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58Fduxe073099 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58Fdtgw073092 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Dg2eC-0006B3-6e; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:39:17 +0000 Message-ID: <InNBvYD$CxpCFAZZ@highwayman.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:37:35 +0100 To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: OT: "UT" References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <XR$$+T+$77f$NOKL2eQ+dOJsyi> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes >But the clear prepondenance of GMT (21% of the total) is notable. But >where is the notorious "EST"? it's summer in New York, Boston &c... so it's EDT at the moment :) - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQqcQv5oAxkTY1oPiEQIWgQCcC/QZHfZPd2fS+Bjlt6VV/rCCqVoAoOe4 6pvA+yDLQY1hKM0INLAQofdt =D2id -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOTxd071517 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FOTNF071516 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOMU9071436 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab7.85a.25d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:51 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAR228688 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:27 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21123 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHrM66.L4I@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:18:06 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 7. juni 2005 14:12 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: >> >> The bottom line is that the net result is what our drafts said >> for quite some time and which enjoyed consensus, viz. >> >> A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not >> a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. >remember the article I posted on May 27? ........ >Whatever the basis is for your claim of an earlier consensus, we don't seem >to have consensus for your position now. And may I also say that the text that Bruce has quoted from the earlier drafts was written *before* someone came on this list to point out the use of References in multi-part FAQs (a practice I had not been aware of, but which seemed eminently sensible). The *whole* of our discussions, proposed changes, etc. since then have arisen as a direct result of what that someone (I cannot recall who it was) said. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOPEH071503 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FOPoR071500 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FONOr071463 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70abb.85a.261 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:55 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FATK28697 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:29 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21125 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <IHrqIq.LLu@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:52:02 GMT Lines: 82 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >References is defined in 2822, while Xref and Supersedes are defined in >USEFOR. >I'll open a ticket on whether comments in References should be listed as >SHOULD NOT generate or MUST NOT generate - saying MUST NOT generate would, >I think, make it equivalent with replacing CFWS with FWS. I think you need to consider a more general issue. There are various places where our draft mandates behaviour that is not in accordance with current practice; in all such cases, it is necessary to consider what transitional arrangements need to be put in place. The issue here is where we are mandating that something MUST be accepted, and where the transitional behaviour is of the form "but do not generate it yet", for some value of "yet". The cases in this category are: 1. <comment>s in References. 2. Naked '.' in <phrase>s. 3. Folding of the Newsgroups header. (There were also matters of <comment>s in some other headers, but these are mostly gone now - there remain cases like From: (rhubarb) Joe Doe (rhubarb) <joe@example.com> (Joe Doe) where the first two <comment>s might confuse some existing newsreaders, but I could perhaps live with that). So what is an appropriate transitional arrangement for those three? Our first reaction was to propose some cutoff date after which they could be freely generated, but we were told that the IESG did not like Flag Days. OTOH, we did not like the idea of "do not generate until the next standard comes out" (expressible as "MUST NOT generate") because #3, in particular, really needed a more urgent fix than that (the Newsgroups header is the only one of all the mail and news headers that cannot be folded, and people are still astounded to be told that it still breaks existing software - even INN has only fixed it in the last 12 months AFAIAA). So the position we took was that people should start generating them when, in their opinion, they would work well enough that the benefit would outweigh the risk that articles would not be seen at some sites. That was expressed by saying "SHOULD NOT generate", plus some verbiage such as: .... Posting agents should be aware that such postings may be rejected by overly-critical old-style relaying agents. When a sufficient number of relaying agents are in conformance, posting agents SHOULD generate such whitespace in the form of <CRLF WSP> so as to keep the length of lines in the relevant headers (notably Newsgroups and Followup-To) to a reasonable length (such as 79 characters, which is likely to be displayed satisfactorily by most current reading agents). Before such critical mass occurs, injecting agents MAY reformat such headers by removing whitespace inserted by the posting agent, but relaying agents MUST NOT do so. which is a bit wordy, but conveys the essential idea. So we either say "MUST NOT generate" for them all, or we say "SHOULD NOT generate" plus verbiage, or we say that Newsgroups (for example) is urgent, and gets "SHOULD NOT", whereas nobody is actually wanting to put <comment>s in References, so "MUST NOT" will do there. But it has also been pointed out (Harald will have seen an email from Alexey on this) that even "SHOULD NOT" is too strong for Newsgroups folding, since it gives no incentive to implement the "MUST accept". So there is the gamut of possibilities. They need to be considered together. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOPBL071513 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FOP2b071512 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOO6j071485 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70abc.85a.262 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:56 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAV928706 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:31 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21127 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHrsu2.LwH@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:42:02 GMT Lines: 123 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Mon June 6 2005 12:36, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. >> >> >Already covered by 2822. >> >> Indeed, but worth reiterating because it would actually break the >> protocols. >Precisely how would "PDT" "break the protocols" in a way that "UT" >would not? I am not aware what other zones use "PDT", but it is wll known that "EST" in Australia means something at least 6 hours different from what it means in America, and I also understand that it means something different again in Estonia, where it will likely be six hours in error the other way. It is just not realistic to suppose that servers in Australia will interpret "EST" according to RFC 2822 (they will probably just hand the zone off to the OS, and for sure that will take an Australian view of time zones). The proper operation of the News protocols requires date-times to be accurate. They have to be compared, and articles get accepted/rejected/expired on the basis of those comparisons. If an article fails to get stored because its date-time is misinterpreted, that is bad. But if the error is the other way round and it gets stored when it should have been rejected as stale, then that is far worse because it can result in looping (example of this were discussed at the time we were introducing the Injection-Date header some months back). >> I could easily be persuaded to promote >> it to MUST NOT if someone asks for it. Are you formally proposing that? >I have said about as clearly as possible that I feel that we should >conform to RFC 2822 format as closely as possible. Since 2822 clearly >says MUST NOT generate for alphabetic zone indication, yes, that is >what I have proposed. Specifically, I propose no deviations from >RFC 2822 regarding date-time format. Then you have failed to answer the question I asked, which was in relation to "UT" only. "GMT" and "UT" are safe, in that _everybody_ understands them and interprets them correctly. But if you follow RFC 2822 and say MUST accept "EST" and the rest, then you cause actual harm (see above) and you force some existing injecting agents which (quite correctly) refuse such zones to be downgraded from a safe behaviour to an unsafe behaviour. We ought to be moving in the opposite direction to that. "GMT" is a special case, insofar as it is not ambiguous and is widely used. So we MUST accept it for the time being. > >> This WG decided. more years ago than I care to remember, that it was >> ludicrous to REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept >> constructes that had Never Ever been seen in Netnews. >You are mistaken in your implied assertion that handling of the standard >alphabetic zones for parsing would would be "constructes [sic] that had >Never [sic] Ever [sic] been seen in Netnews". Again, you avoid the issue by changing the question. We decided that obs-syntax in general was a Bad Thing, and it would be an imposition to demand that news agents should accept it all regardless (a point you yourself once made, as you will doubtless recall). There may be a few exceptions to that, and they need to be considered on their merits (but GMT and obs-phrase are the only ones that have been excepted to date). RFC 850: > 2.1.4 Date The Date line (formerly "Posted") is the > date, in a format that must be acceptable both to the > ARPANET and to the getdate routine, >RFC 1036: > The "Date" line (formerly "Posted") is the date that the message was > originally posted to the network. Its format must be acceptable > both in RFC-822 and to the getdate(3) routine that is provided with > the Usenet software. So what? There may well have been articles with strange zones in the past; there are even a few even now. But nobody is going to reinject old articles into the news transport system again (and I doubt any user agent would refuse to display them anyway). It is the news transport where the harm arises, and there is nothing gained by prolonging the agony. >As Russ has noted, there is *substantial* existing usage of alphabetic >zone abbreviations. No, he has not noted that. Usage of GMT is indeed "substantial", but not the others. >> That decision have never been challenged since then. Why are you raising >> it now? >Again, this has been discussed before. References please. >> IIRC, it was you who asked for <obs-zone> to be brought within our >> standard. >References, please. www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0221.html -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FONgJ071466 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FON2M071461 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOLYS071432 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab3.85a.259 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:47 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAXx28711 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:33 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21128 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: OT: "UT" Message-ID: <IHrt3C.Lyy@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:47:36 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >I was curious, so here are some actual numbers. >% cd spool/overview >% find -name \*.DAT -print > /tmp/files >% xargs cut -f 4 < /tmp/files | sed 's/ (.*)$//' > /tmp/dates >% wc -l /tmp/dates >3632585 /tmp/dates >% foreach zone ( GMT UT UTC EDT MDT CDT PDT ) >foreach? echo -n "${zone}: " >foreach? grep $zone'$' /tmp/dates | wc -l >foreach? end >GMT: 780813 >UT: 13 >UTC: 3756 >EDT: 30721 >MDT: 1 >CDT: 21 >PDT: 216 >Which is more than I thought. MDT, CDT, and PDT are a lot less than I >thought. Apparently someone does actually use UT, but maybe only one >person. :) But the clear prepondenance of GMT (21% of the total) is notable. But where is the notorious "EST"? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOOUA071487 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FOOBw071486 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FONgW071438 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab9.85a.25f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:53 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FASk28692 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:28 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21124 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHrMLy.L7L@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <874qcb3x43.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <62AD13FE5CBD2F4E22C5DB92@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:27:34 GMT Lines: 43 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <62AD13FE5CBD2F4E22C5DB92@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 6. juni 2005 16:05 -0700 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: >> Authentication identity is >> very internal to the application and not generally of use or interest to >> anyone outside that application except for audit purposes. >> >>> So I propose a new Injection-Info parameter >>> authentication=<value> >> >>> Would people be happy with that? >> >> Works for me. >I think Russ made a very good argument that revealing the authentication >identity in the Injection-Info is a mistake. And yet, in the bit you have quoted, he appears to support the inclusion of that parameter. The Injection-Info provides a variety of methods of indicating the article origin, from which injecting agents can choose what suits them. When this header was first introduced, there were long arguments between those who wanted to protect the poster's privacy and anonymity, and those who wanted to prevent malefactors hiding behind their privacy walls. The upshot was the variety of tools that you see, with the choice being left open (because standards don't deal with privacy issues). The discussion of the tensions between the various viewpoints was therefore moved to USEAGE, where you can still read it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FONUF071468 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FONaP071464 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOLH9071433 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab4.85a.25a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:48 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAQx28684 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:26 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21122 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHrLvt.L1z@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHpt0I.7nK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <5E8CC1FF1C846ABF3D954EC0@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:11:53 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <5E8CC1FF1C846ABF3D954EC0@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 7. juni 2005 12:50 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> What you cannot do is to say nothing at all. >Actually RFC 2822 gets away with only giving a construction algorithm. Yes, but Alexey pointed out a couple of weeks back that RFC 2822 is both a protocol and a format document, with the implication that that construction algorithm belonged in USEPRO (where it indeed is). Which leaves the question whether it is sufficient, in USEFOR, to point you at that text in USEPRO, or whether you also need some explicit semantics text in USEFOR, most likely worded in terms of parents coming earlier than children (though maybe not using the words 'parent' and 'child'). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOOiV071477 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FOO9i071476 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOMAb071437 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab8.85a.25e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:52 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAUQ28701 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:30 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21126 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHrqwL.Lor@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506071419.09372.blilly@erols.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:00:20 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506071419.09372.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >For the purpose of the USEFOR (syntax & semantics) document, it suffices to >specify the syntax and semantics (obviously?). For the purpose of the >USEPRO (protocol) document, one could add an implementation note such as: > When modifying a References field, care must be taken to ensure that the > result complies with the syntax specification for the field, specifically > that line length limits are observed and that no msg-id is truncated or > subjected to internal line folding. I agree that any mention of pruning is a matter for USEPRO rather than USEFOR. What I currently propose to say, at Frank's request (see suggested text posted earlier) is that you MAY prune (subject to keeping the first and the last two), and that you MUST prune to keep it within 998 (including folded lines, because of the kind of breakage I described). I think it goes without saying that whatever results must be syntactically correct, and so there can be no folding within a msg-id. There is some additional advice on pruning in USEAGE. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FON2v071465 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58FON8L071460 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58FOLc7071434 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-193.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.193]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a70ab5.85a.25b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:11:49 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j58FAPe28680 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:10:25 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21121 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHrLKo.KzD@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <6024687CE64910DA7D2748FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:05:12 GMT Lines: 31 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <6024687CE64910DA7D2748FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I have rarely seen an example of a linear thread..... I think the use of the metaphor "thread" came about in the following way. Consider a tree (or a list of a DAG or a graph) with a bead at each node. Take a piece of cotton thread, and thread it through some/all of those beads in some manner. That defines a linear ordering on the nodes in the tree (DAG/graph/whatever). A useful threading order for a tree of news articles is a depth first traversal, and newsreaders that present articles in that order (and sometimes with some indentation to make it even prettier) are hence known as "threading newsreaders". But the question immediately facing us is whether or not it is useful to use "thread" informally in some text that serves to introduce the References header in USEFOR. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58ERSca066019 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58ERSUF066018 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:27:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58ERRfb066010 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j58ERNF1025770; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j58ERNER025769; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:27:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? In-Reply-To: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050608101326.24647H-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > These numbers could argue for skipping UT and/or including EDT (and > presumabily EST, since this measurement was taken in summer). "UT" was my addition in son-of-1036, and since it seems to have achieved essentially zero market penetration :-), I think we can forget about it. We should *NOT* bless EST or EDT, still in significant use though they may be, because they are definitely ambiguous. (I think it most unlikely that software which puts in a local timezone name is first checking to make sure that the definition agrees with the RFC 2822 obs-zone definition.) Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BW9LU022589 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58BW9N7022588 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:32:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BW8og022576 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF6B61B75 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:32:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31254-01 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDFF61AFF for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:32:05 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments be a MUST NOT? Message-ID: <9C0900833B50A242F2D14EF9@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> New ticket: At the moment, section 3.2.2 of usefor-04 says: o Comments in CFWS between message identifiers can cause interoperability problems, so comments SHOULD NOT be generated, but MUST be accepted. --On 3. juni 2005 01:45 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > BTW, CFWS in References is a silly unnecessary complication. (CFWS in > any structured header > is a bad idea,IMNSHO. - I implement article processing software.) > > usepro Transitional Arrangements even admits comments in References will > break existing software. > > So, why are comments going to be allowed in the References header? > > Is the idea to make References irrelevant and unreliable, and then we > don't > care that it cannot be parsed by legacy software? While we cannot change RFC 2822, it may be logical to change SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BOIgu019855 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58BOIvv019853 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:24:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BOH34019841 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF2661B75 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:24:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31044-06 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:24:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D1161AFF for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:24:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:24:11 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1028 USEFOR 3.1.2: What zones should be on the MUST accept list? Message-ID: <A82E3750CE3DC44F19E9B2EA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I've created the following ticket: USEFOR section 3.1.2 "Date" currently says: 3.1.2 Date The Date header is the same as that specified in Sections 3.3 and 3.6.1 of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2. However, the use of "UT" and "GMT" as time zones (part of <obs-zone>), although deprecated, is widespread in news articles today. Therefore, agents MUST accept <date-time> constructs which include the updated <zone> construct below. orig-date = "Date:" SP date-time CRLF zone = (( "+" / "-" ) 4DIGIT) / "UT" / "GMT" Note that agents SHOULD NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include either "UT" or "GMT" and MUST NOT generate <date-time> constructs which include any other zone names defined by <obs-zone>, some of which have ambiguous interpretations and would have adverse effects on the Netnews protocols. Also note that these requirements apply wherever <date-time> is used, including Injection-Date and Expires in Section 3.2.1 and Section 3.2.4 respectively. The question has been raised about how realistic this is. Russ Allbery computed the following numbers: I was curious, so here are some actual numbers. % cd spool/overview % find -name \*.DAT -print > /tmp/files % xargs cut -f 4 < /tmp/files | sed 's/ (.*)$//' > /tmp/dates % wc -l /tmp/dates 3632585 /tmp/dates % foreach zone ( GMT UT UTC EDT MDT CDT PDT ) foreach? echo -n "${zone}: " foreach? grep $zone'$' /tmp/dates | wc -l foreach? end GMT: 780813 UT: 13 UTC: 3756 EDT: 30721 MDT: 1 CDT: 21 PDT: 216 Which is more than I thought. MDT, CDT, and PDT are a lot less than I thought. Apparently someone does actually use UT, but maybe only one person. :) These numbers could argue for skipping UT and/or including EDT (and presumabily EST, since this measurement was taken in summer). (note - not in ticket - last sentence was added by me, not Russ) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BDQnf015847 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j58BDQ0K015846 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j58BDPfV015830 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2212A61B58 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:13:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30713-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:13:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACD861AFF for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:13:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:13:20 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1022 Summary: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <5D1094414EF14902B64973A6@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Of the flurry of messages on this subject line, I found exactly two responses that pertained to the subject of the original ticket: - Charles would like to somehow elevate obs-phrase (which allows dot) from the "MAY accept/MUST NOT generate" implied by the current text to a status that says "MUST accept", and either SHOULD NOT or MUST NOT generate. - Bruce Lilly argues against a deviation (I think). Are these the only two voices on the subject? I'm opening another ticket on the issue of UT in timezones. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j587H9ov030169 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j587H9Z1030168 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j587H7eO030135 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfuib-0005AC-3U for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:11:17 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:11:17 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:11:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:13:04 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A69A80.22@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0935A.10CD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHo9zF.CM@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > I need to wait for your "continued later" For the latest and greatest SPF draft published yesterday see http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schlitt-spf-classic-02.txt The weird header is in chapter 7, grmbl, still with <... 2822> for CRLF. Wait a moment, usefor-04 also says that 2822 defines CRLF, now what is this, easter-eggs for Bruce everywhere ? The ABNF for CRLF is in 2234bis, not in 2822. > "client-ip" presumably expects an <IPv4address> or > <IPv6address> All values are either dot-atom or quoted-string, the semantical details are explained in prose. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586WQRM013572 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j586WN3c013449 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:32:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586WI8r013382 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfu2P-00016c-Q1 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:27:41 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:27:41 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:27:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:29:50 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 39 Message-ID: <42A6905E.15BB@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoDrL.qM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4F3BC.3FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Add authentication= with a reference to the new NNTPauth, >> Russ said that this is a good idea. Alexey would warn us >> if NNTPauth is blocked. > OK, that makes 3 people happy with that idea. "Happy" isn't the correct word, it's more like "I really don't see how Sam could kill us for it, and I hope that Alexey would warn us in time". [x-attribute] > the folklore is certainly that they are available for use, > and would never be standardized/registered as such. [...] > we write whatever we think fit. In which case, I most > certainly think that we should allow x-attributes for > injecting agents that wish to include further information > that does not fit into any of the categories provided Okay, where's the ABNF, key-value-pair as in SPF, or a 2231 variant of it ? [security considerations about 2231] >| MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. >| Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters >| like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined >| in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass simple algorithms >| trying to analyze MIME parts. > Posibly. Does anyone else want to see that written into our > Security Considerations? That was meant as a request, not only as a proposal. But the wording is of course open for debate. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AiDL004643 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j586Ainl004642 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AhlV004631 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69DA61B74; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27595-03; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B1B61B66; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:06:51 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <BB154D3972B78CB532B50762@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 7. juni 2005 13:03 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > But I am not aware of anyone (trolls apart) who has ever tried to > construct, for example, a References header with a loop in it. I have been told by someone familiar with News (I think it was by Arnt Gulbrandsen, the implementor of the Leafnode newsserver, but it's so many years ago that it could easily be someone else) that he's seen at least one example of a References: loop. I believe this was a case of two messages having References referring to each other. Had "interesting" effects on some news reading software he was writing that expected the References chain to be a DAG. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586Ag2C004623 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j586AgMV004622 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AfYV004607 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E9461B76; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27466-09; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA1161B74; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:53:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <5E8CC1FF1C846ABF3D954EC0@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <IHpt0I.7nK@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHpt0I.7nK@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 7. juni 2005 12:50 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > > In <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann > <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > >> It would surely kill USEFOR for good, yes. No "threads", no >> nonsense, no aclycic graphs. A msg-id-list is simply a list >> of msg-id-s, ready. Harald's wording (or your version of it) >> was fine, any additional comma in 3.2.2 is asking for trouble. > > No, the <msg-id-list> in the References header is not any random > collection of <msg-id>s. It is subject to constraints (e.g. that a > precursor does not come later in the list that any followup to it). > > You can express this by referring to the rule for constructing it in > USEPOR (which is what my currently proposed text does), or you can express > it by writing some similar rules into USEFOR (which is what Forrest has > suggested), or you can express it by talking about parents coming earlier > than children (which is what my earlier suggestion did, though not using > the words 'parent' and 'child'). > > What you cannot do is to say nothing at all. Actually RFC 2822 gets away with only giving a construction algorithm. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AfPU004609 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j586AfIX004608 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AeOc004595 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D188F61B77; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27595-02; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083D061B76; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:10:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:59:06 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org, "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <0464704FF79B826F0500D9DE@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 7. juni 2005 14:12 -0400 Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> wrote: > > The bottom line is that the net result is what our drafts said > for quite some time and which enjoyed consensus, viz. > > A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not > a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. Bruce, remember the article I posted on May 27? > 1) All "followups" have a References: header. > All articles with References: header are "followups". > - Eivind Tagseth: "Because I view... multi-part..special type of followup" > > 2) All "followups" have a References: header. > There exist articles that have References:, but are not "followups" > - Henry Spencer: "Existing practice" > - Richard Clayton: "captures my perception of useful current practice" > - Seth Breidbarth: "current reality" > - Russ Albery: "but would be content with 1)" > - Frank Ellermann (I also had 3 people arguing other positions). Whatever the basis is for your claim of an earlier consensus, we don't seem to have consensus for your position now. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586AAYP004198 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j586AAp8004197 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j586A8ih004137 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dftgv-0007sb-MF for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:05:29 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:05:29 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:05:29 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:05:56 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 50 Message-ID: <42A68AC4.6928@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdganjrt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A66139.1A35@xyzzy.claranet.de> <877jh54jqy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > people use some of this nonsense in real articles For sure not MEZT, the worst would be MESZ <shudder /> > Usenet software has interpreted those time zones as > having those meanings for something like fifteen > years now, at least, so people expect it. I can understand the 822 and 1036 timezones, and I'm not at all surprised that you got a lot of EDT in your sample, IIRC EST / EDT used to be the default. The other (undocumented) names are as you said crap. > Here's the question: How do you plan on getting > rid of this sort of thing on Usenet? For the 822 / 1036 stuff I can live with whatever you, Bruce, Henry, and Charles say. And if you say "delete the 2822 obs-stuff" I'd be happy with it. > I can tell you as a Usenet software author that > whenever I try to tighten date parsing, I get > pushback from my users who want everything that > currently works to just keep working. And here I was thinking that I'm the most conservative "backwards compatibility" extremist of the world using an ersatz-newsreader built 1996. > I don't have a good answer for that question other > than "standards purity," Tell them where the source is and where they'd find a compiler. Really, MEZT _is_ plain nonsense. And MEZ is CET, nobody uses the German abreviations outside of Germany. Not in the Internet... okay, in Usenet you get all the worst cases, and "deusenet" is Usenet as it was 1995, but it's still state of the art s-o-1036: | time = hh ":" mm [ ":" ss ] space timezone | timezone = "UT" / "GMT" | / ( "+" / "-" ) hh mm [ space "(" zone-name ")" ] See, no MEZ, MESZ, "MEZT", the worst case is a comment. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j585XhQG087676 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j585Xh59087675 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:33:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j585XfYB087644 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:33:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dft8B-0004hG-7G for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:29:35 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:29:35 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:29:35 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:32:20 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 13 Message-ID: <42A682E4.2B98@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <6024687CE64910DA7D2748FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I have rarely seen an example of a linear thread..... Some [FWS] and msg-id threads here were rather linear. In the latter case there was still a sort of result - or maybe two almost equivalent results. The threads about references were in fact loops, they started from scratch periodically. No surprising new arguments for years. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j584pJ92071692 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j584pJlc071691 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j584pHXU071683 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfsSx-0001Ww-Tr for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:46:59 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:46:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:46:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:49:19 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 25 Message-ID: <42A678CF.73F@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <42A59991.2020505@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > Frank, it seems like you want to push USEFOR to be basically > ABNF only, with almost no semantics. For a "msg-id-list" the semantics is "list of msg-ids", for a more elaborated answer about Charles' DAG idea (which also does not fly) see my parallel article. > Why would such a terse document merit its own separate RFC? There are some interesting and important differences from RfC 2822, one header field is irrelevant in news (In-Reply-To), many header fields are only relevant in news, not mentioned in 2822, above all "we" have the one and only msg-id syntax. In two slightly different variants, but syntactically the same msg-id, _very_ different from 2822. There are at the moment at least three drafts building on "our" fixed msg-id: The 26th NNTP monster in last call, Charles' news-nntp-uri-00, my news-nntp-uri-00. They all say "NO-WS-CTL is not correct, RfC 2822 got it wrong". Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j584YFGF070685 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:34:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j584YF7Y070684 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:34:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j584YDu3070678 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:34:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfsCe-00008V-Fn for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:30:08 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:30:08 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:30:08 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:26:24 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 87 Message-ID: <42A67370.126E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: [DAG] >> Is that a "directed acyclic graph" ? > Yes. Then it's too general, if you're lucky you can deduce a rooted tree, and then the References are the way from the root to the article. In a DAG the direction "from root to leave" isn't clear, it's just a tree with arbitrary directions attached to the edges... Wait, I see, you want multiple trees, all the msg-ids are by definition direct or indirect "precursors" of the article in question, and for two msg-ids m and in this list with m < n you have either m is an (in)direct "precursor" of n, or it is unrelated. In any case all listed msg-ids are "precursors" of the article in question. Defining "precursor" as "existed before (pray)". Fine, that makes sense, but we are in trouble with the "pray". And it's not guaranteed, if I pick msg-ids (x, y, z) as my "references", and x was a reply or followup of z, then it's not your DAG. And while I do such stupid things no text in the world forces me to sort these msg-ids as ((y), (z, x)) or ((z, x), y) or (z, y, x) only because you like to see "z before x". There's a serious chance that I don't know this even if I'm willing to follow your decree. Maybe I found x, y, z individually. >> Whatever it is, this is not always and not necessarily the >> case. > Yes it is. No, it's not. It's a msg-id-list. Only if you are lucky it's a way from "the" root to the article in question. Often you don't know what it is (= references from an invisible context). > If you are not trying to describe at least a DAG (of which > trees and linear lists are a particular case), then you have > no business putting a References header in your article. > That is what Forrest is worried about. My UA doesn't care what Forrester is worried about, because his definition is not correct. My UA _normally_ grabs whatever it sees in the References, a msg-id-list, adds the msg-id of the parent article, and uses this as references in the followup or reply. It has _no_ idea what the old references were. And that's only the normal case. Under less normal conditions I could put some "related Message-IDs" manually in the references, for "retrieval" as you said. It's strictly my business. And I'd bet that no UA in the world has a crystal ball to check these references against theoretical trees, they just do what my UA does: grab it, add parent Message-ID, ready. Exactly this is the correct behaviour. If you want to say more about it put it in 1855bis / USEAGE. > my current USEPRO text is only telling you how to construct a > tree It doesn't, it's only a theoretical tree by induction, if the _complete_ references were constructed this way in each step. That is not guaranteed, and it's generally neither possible nor desirable to check it. What you have in USEPRO is the one correct step to create a followup given a parent msg-id and its old msg-id-list. This old msg-id-list can be anything, it can be some "See-Also". > I am not aware of anyone (trolls apart) who has ever tried > to construct, for example, a References header with a loop > in it. I tried this here, References containing my own Message-ID: <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format/27603/raw> <news://news.gmane.org/41268955.1085@xyzzy.claranet.de> It's not that I'd "recommend" this practice, it's a bad idea, but it's still something UAs have to deal with. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j583KdP1066230 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j583KdE8066229 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j583KceZ066222 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j583Kbnt023743 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:20:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 10472 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2005 03:20:37 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <42A66139.1A35@xyzzy.claranet.de> (Frank Ellermann's message of "Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:08:41 +0200") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdganjrt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <42A66139.1A35@xyzzy.claranet.de> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:20:37 -0700 Message-ID: <877jh54jqy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > That's the ambiguous EST beast. Better delete this crap, it's > far beyond ridiculous, it's plain wrong. Except, see, it's not, because people use some of this nonsense in real articles and the time zone they mean is, surprisingly enough, those. Furthermore, Usenet software has interpreted those time zones as having those meanings for something like fifteen years now, at least, so people expect it. Here's the question: How do you plan on getting rid of this sort of thing on Usenet? I can tell you as a Usenet software author that whenever I try to tighten date parsing, I get pushback from my users who want everything that currently works to just keep working. If I require that all times be given properly zero-padded, for instance, it breaks some random Mac off-line reader. I then get asked "why do you have to do that, what really breaks?" I don't have a good answer for that question other than "standards purity," which personally I'm down with, but which isn't a very persuasive argument. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j583A3NF065410 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j583A3RJ065409 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j583A0oJ065396 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Dfqsy-0000pe-JW for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:05:44 +0200 Received: from du-001-163.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:05:44 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-163.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:05:44 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 05:08:41 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 26 Message-ID: <42A66139.1A35@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdganjrt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-163.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Russ Allbery wrote: > well, all this crap: > { "CUT", 0 }, /* Coordinated Universal */ Utter dubious, is that the 822 UT ? > { "WET", 0 }, /* Western European */ Utter dubious, where's GMT ? > { "NDT", (-2 * 60 + 30) * 60 }, /* Newfoundland Daylight */ Crap, skipping more crap... > { "MEZ", 1 * 60 * 60 }, /* Middle European */ > { "MEZT", 2 * 60 * 60 }, /* Middle European Summer */ Completely bogus, MESZ is "MittelEurpaeische SommerZeit" > { "EAST", 10 * 60 * 60 }, /* Eastern Australian Standard */ That's the ambiguous EST beast. Better delete this crap, it's far beyond ridiculous, it's plain wrong. What a headache, bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57JBOgx028463 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57JBOo2028462 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:11:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57JBOCv028452 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E913B29975; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57JBMsm018718(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:11:22 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57JBK96018717(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:11:21 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:11:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> <87vf4qm3f7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87vf4qm3f7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071511.19125.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j57JBOCv028457 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 7 2005 14:23, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > We have been directed to base our work on RFC 2822 and MIME, and MIME > > (specifically RFC 2046 section 5.2.2.2) permits use of a References > > field to reference parts of a fragmented message. Such a message with a > > References field is a "followup" per the consensus text quoted above. > > I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate by inserting the word > "consensus" into this sentence. I would instead argue that RFC 1036 did > not anticipate uses such as MIME when that text was drafted. Apologies if it was unclear; let me clarify. The "consensus text" referred to is what appeared in draft-ietf-usefor-article versions 06 through 13 at least (possibly others), viz.: A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. That text was subject to WG review including internal last calls, and including after a WG Chair clarified that our work was to be based on 2822 + MIME. Clearly that text survived at least eight iterations of the draft, including last calls, and while we were considering MIME. It also happens to be the same as in Henry's news.txt document modulo capitalization of "NOT", and is a reasonable interpretation of 1036 (which does have issues with clarity). I am not claiming that the consensus applied to those other documents or to text other than that quoted above. The text does not appear verbatim as a unit in 1036; that is not the claim. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57IZw4M024789 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57IZwj2024788 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57IZv8K024779 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362512992D; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57IZuXB018506(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:35:56 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57IZtHj018505(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:35:56 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:35:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87d5qynjir.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87d5qynjir.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071435.53896.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 7 2005 13:50, Russ Allbery wrote: > References is a borderline case. Adding CFWS to References *will* break > existing news software, in the sense that the comments will be interpreted > as message IDs, but the result of the breakage isn't particularly > dramatic. The open question is whether that degree of breakage warrants > divergence or not. I don't think we ever really reached a conclusion > everyone was satisfied with, although we've gone around on the topic > several times. A good example of where Mark Crispin's suggestion of an implementation note would be appropriate, e.g.: Although comments have always been permitted in the References field per RFC 822 syntax as adopted by RFCs 850 and 1036, some implementations are known to attempt to interpret comments as msg-ids. Consequently, implementations concerned about such matters should avoid comments when generating References fields. Implementers concerned about resources used for handling msg-ids should ensure that comments are not misinterpreted as msg-ids. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57ISnfa023909 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57ISni4023907 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.33]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57ISmbO023899 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr13.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j57ISfWS037959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:28:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <099f01c56b8e$bddca810$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:23:03 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey schreef: > But I am not aware of anyone (trolls apart) who has ever tried to > construct, for example, a References header with a loop in it. A have seen the shortest variant a few times: self-referencing. The last time even because somebody considered it useful. See news:465.xpost@statusrapport.monitor.nl http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=464.xpost@statusrapport.monitor.nl&fwc=1 http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=465.xpost@statusrapport.monitor.nl&fwc=1 http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=466.xpost@statusrapport.monitor.nl&fwc=1 The URL with 465 will not return a message, I guess that google filters such messages. -- Grtz, Ruud (Bcc: that somebody) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57INfpk023262 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57INfFR023261 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57INfqi023255 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57INefV008926 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:23:40 -0700 Received: (qmail 16649 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2005 18:23:40 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" In-Reply-To: <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:12:42 -0400") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: <87vf4qm3f7.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > That text provided a convenient shorthand ("followup" == article with a > References field) and is an objective fact about a given article which > can be determined directly from that article without the need to examine > an arbitrarily large collection of other articles, without having to > break out a Ouija board to divine whether or not the "subject" changed > or what the authors' or poster's intentions were, etc. > Until it was arbitrarily changed w/o prior WG discussion or consensus. Whether there was consensus before it was changed or not, we just went through this and there's a fair bit of consensus to leave it the way that it is now. That's simply not how the word "followup" is used in software and in discussion of Usenet, for better or for worse. > We have been directed to base our work on RFC 2822 and MIME, and MIME > (specifically RFC 2046 section 5.2.2.2) permits use of a References > field to reference parts of a fragmented message. Such a message with a > References field is a "followup" per the consensus text quoted above. I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate by inserting the word "consensus" into this sentence. I would instead argue that RFC 1036 did not anticipate uses such as MIME when that text was drafted. > RFC 2822 and its predecessors defines use of the References field for > "message identifiers of other messages" without restriction, and that > applies to multi-part FAQs. I agree with you on this, as previously mentioned. > I move that we restore the text quoted above which was present in our > drafts prior to the arbitrary change, and which enjoyed WG consensus and > was subjected to internal last calls. Anybody care to second the > motion? I think this is a really bad argument to use to support the change. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57IJF3N022782 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57IJFGT022781 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57IJEcj022775 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BA729936; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57IJCnh018370(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:19:12 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57IJCip018369(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:19:12 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:19:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071419.09372.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 7 2005 09:47, Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >The current (RFC 1036) definition of "followup" includes current -- > >indeed long-standing -- practices such as multi-part FAQs and other > >multi-part articles. > > No, the consensus view here is that RFC 1036 does NOT include multi-part > FAQS etc in that manner, which is why the issue needs to be clarified. It was eminently clear in earlier drafts which passed internal last call; see separate message. > >o "excessively long lines" is a non-issue due to the ability to fold > > physical lines wherever linear whitespace is allowed, as has been the > > case with RFC 822 message format and its predecessors even before that > > format was adopted by RFC 850. > >o there is of course no limit to the length of a logical (i.e. logically > > unfolded) field. Never has been. > > That's the theory, but it ain't the practice. > > There was a long running thread on the ietf-822 list, which you may well > remember. The References header got longer and longer. Different agents > folded it in different ways (some even took a whole new line for each > msg-id, which was actually quite nice if you wanted to look through it for > some particular message). Moreover, some agents when replying took the old > References list, added the new item, and refolded the whole thing in a > completely different way. All quite permitted by RFC 2822, of course. > > BUT there was at least one agent (I never discovered which) which unfolded > the whole line, added the new entry, and then did not refold, thus undoing > all the good done by the preceding agents. Naturally, the total length > eventually got beyoind 998. At which point some agent (not sure whether it > was the same culprit or the next one in line) truncated the header after > exactly 998 characters (usually in the middle of a <msg-id>) and passed it > on, to the great confusion of the next agent to process it. For the purpose of the USEFOR (syntax & semantics) document, it suffices to specify the syntax and semantics (obviously?). For the purpose of the USEPRO (protocol) document, one could add an implementation note such as: When modifying a References field, care must be taken to ensure that the result complies with the syntax specification for the field, specifically that line length limits are observed and that no msg-id is truncated or subjected to internal line folding. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57ICmm3021706 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57ICmKU021705 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57ICle3021695 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EA42992D; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57ICjnc018258(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:12:46 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57ICj66018257(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:12:45 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:12:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071412.43147.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Tue June 7 2005 12:59, Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > Here are links to all the RFC1036 sections which use the term: Thanks. The bottom line is that the net result is what our drafts said for quite some time and which enjoyed consensus, viz. A followup MUST have a References-header, and an article that is not a followup MUST NOT have a References-header. Modulo capitalization of "NOT", that text also appeared in Henry's news.txt.Z. That text provided a convenient shorthand ("followup" == article with a References field) and is an objective fact about a given article which can be determined directly from that article without the need to examine an arbitrarily large collection of other articles, without having to break out a Ouija board to divine whether or not the "subject" changed or what the authors' or poster's intentions were, etc. Until it was arbitrarily changed w/o prior WG discussion or consensus. > I find no wording above which definitely excludes or includes > multi-parts. We have been directed to base our work on RFC 2822 and MIME, and MIME (specifically RFC 2046 section 5.2.2.2) permits use of a References field to reference parts of a fragmented message. Such a message with a References field is a "followup" per the consensus text quoted above. RFC 2822 and its predecessors defines use of the References field for "message identifiers of other messages" without restriction, and that applies to multi-part FAQs. I move that we restore the text quoted above which was present in our drafts prior to the arbitrary change, and which enjoyed WG consensus and was subjected to internal last calls. Anybody care to second the motion? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HobWH019398 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57Hobqx019396 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57Hobqr019390 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57HoaeY022223 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:50:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 15121 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2005 17:50:36 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header In-Reply-To: <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:27:32 +0200") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:50:36 -0700 Message-ID: <87d5qynjir.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > I was told earlier that the WG had a previous consensus that it would: > a) not change definitions from RFC 2822 (where References has CFWS) > b) allow CFWS wherever possible, with a "MUST accept/SHOULD NOT generate" > clause for certain headers (including References). I don't think so. The consensus, as I understood it, was that we would avoid unnecessary divergences from RFC 2822 while recognizing that some changes to converge with RFC 2822 would break existing news software and therefore couldn't be allowed. In particular, we HAVE to diverge on Message-ID because the RFC 2822 definition is too lax and will break NNTP. I would not have agreed with the consensus as stated above, for the Message-ID issue if for no other reason. References is a borderline case. Adding CFWS to References *will* break existing news software, in the sense that the comments will be interpreted as message IDs, but the result of the breakage isn't particularly dramatic. The open question is whether that degree of breakage warrants divergence or not. I don't think we ever really reached a conclusion everyone was satisfied with, although we've gone around on the topic several times. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HjCYC018553 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57HjC3B018552 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HjBF9018546 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57HjBwX020102 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:45:11 -0700 Received: (qmail 14828 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2005 17:45:10 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:11:33 GMT") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:45:10 -0700 Message-ID: <87hdganjrt.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> However, in the Date header, EST has a protocol-defined meaning. > Only in an obs- part of RFC 2822 which we have chosen to exclude Our draft isn't actually published. Given the best available *published* protocol information that people currently have to work with, EST has a protocol-defined meaning and UTC doesn't. INN's date parser parses the full obs RFC 2822 syntax, plus some other random junk, primarily missing leading zeros in time components and dates without any time zone at all, but also including UTC and, well, all this crap: { "CUT", 0 }, /* Coordinated Universal */ { "WET", 0 }, /* Western European */ { "BST", 1 * 60 * 60 }, /* British Summer */ { "NDT", (-2 * 60 + 30) * 60 }, /* Newfoundland Daylight */ { "NST", (-3 * 60 + 30) * 60 }, /* Newfoundland Standard */ { "ADT", -3 * 60 * 60 }, /* Atlantic Daylight */ { "AST", -4 * 60 * 60 }, /* Atlantic Standard */ { "YDT", -8 * 60 * 60 }, /* Yukon Daylight */ { "YST", -9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Yukon Standard */ { "AKDT", -8 * 60 * 60 }, /* Alaska Daylight */ { "AKST", -9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Alaska Standard */ { "HADT", -9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Hawaii-Aleutian Daylight */ { "HAST", -10 * 60 * 60 }, /* Hawaii-Aleutian Standard */ { "HST", -10 * 60 * 60 }, /* Hawaii Standard */ { "CES", 2 * 60 * 60 }, /* Central European Summer */ { "CEST", 2 * 60 * 60 }, /* Central European Summer */ { "MEZ", 1 * 60 * 60 }, /* Middle European */ { "MEZT", 2 * 60 * 60 }, /* Middle European Summer */ { "CET", 1 * 60 * 60 }, /* Central European */ { "MET", 1 * 60 * 60 }, /* Middle European */ { "EET", 2 * 60 * 60 }, /* Eastern European */ { "MSK", 3 * 60 * 60 }, /* Moscow Winter */ { "MSD", 4 * 60 * 60 }, /* Moscow Summer */ { "WAST", 8 * 60 * 60 }, /* Western Australian Standard */ { "WADT", 9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Western Australian Daylight */ { "HKT", 8 * 60 * 60 }, /* Hong Kong */ { "CCT", 8 * 60 * 60 }, /* China Coast */ { "JST", 9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Japan Standard */ { "KST", 9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Korean Standard */ { "KDT", 9 * 60 * 60 }, /* Korean Daylight (no change?) */ { "CAST", (9 * 60 + 30) * 60 }, /* Central Australian Standard */ { "CADT", (10 * 60 + 30) * 60 }, /* Central Australian Daylight */ { "EAST", 10 * 60 * 60 }, /* Eastern Australian Standard */ { "EADT", 11 * 60 * 60 }, /* Eastern Australian Daylight */ { "NZST", 12 * 60 * 60 }, /* New Zealand Standard */ { "NZST", 13 * 60 * 60 }, /* New Zealand Daylight */ I tried to get rid of some of it, but I got pushback from people who didn't want existing dates to suddenly stop parsing, and finally gave up and just tossed the whole time zone list from parsedate in when I rewrote the date parser. As I recall, something in the range of 10% of that list was actually in use when I checked. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HdbC4017431 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57HdaDn017430 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HdaXY017423 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57HdZG2022487 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:39:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 14454 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2005 17:39:35 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: OT: "UT" In-Reply-To: <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> (Bruce Lilly's message of "Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:26:58 -0400") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:39:35 -0700 Message-ID: <87ll5mnk14.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > On Mon June 6 2005 19:08, Russ Allbery wrote: >> I don't recall any usage of UT at all. > Well, there's substantial use of "UTC", though that is not and never has > been a valid standard zone abbreviation in date-time in the message > format. It's a violation of RFCs 561, 724, 733, 822, 850, 1036, and > 2822. Fortunately, nobody has proposed accepting it as if it were > valid. I was curious, so here are some actual numbers. % cd spool/overview % find -name \*.DAT -print > /tmp/files % xargs cut -f 4 < /tmp/files | sed 's/ (.*)$//' > /tmp/dates % wc -l /tmp/dates 3632585 /tmp/dates % foreach zone ( GMT UT UTC EDT MDT CDT PDT ) foreach? echo -n "${zone}: " foreach? grep $zone'$' /tmp/dates | wc -l foreach? end GMT: 780813 UT: 13 UTC: 3756 EDT: 30721 MDT: 1 CDT: 21 PDT: 216 Which is more than I thought. MDT, CDT, and PDT are a lot less than I thought. Apparently someone does actually use UT, but maybe only one person. :) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HDtG4013338 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57HDtJo013337 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57HDsOX013330 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j57HDrSY007239 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:13:54 -0700 Received: (qmail 13759 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2005 17:13:53 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues In-Reply-To: <62AD13FE5CBD2F4E22C5DB92@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:03:53 +0200") References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <874qcb3x43.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <62AD13FE5CBD2F4E22C5DB92@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:13:53 -0700 Message-ID: <873bruozse.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > I think Russ made a very good argument that revealing the authentication > identity in the Injection-Info is a mistake. Name it > identifier-that-the-sysadmin-can-use-to-figure-out-who-sent-this, and it > may make sense. I think it's important to distinguish between world-wide public newsgroups and private newsgroups for a particular organization. It may make quite a bit more sense to include the authentication identity in the latter. On the other hand, don't we already have an opaque token explicitly for the use of the local sysadmin to encode trace information? That might be sufficient. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57H01ZZ012119 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57H010n012118 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57H00iX012106 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-223-220-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.223.220]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j57Gxegt002932 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A5D279.3080305@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 12:59:37 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: > > >>The current (RFC 1036) definition of "followup" includes current -- >>indeed long-standing -- practices such as multi-part FAQs and other >>multi-part articles. > > > No, the consensus view here is that RFC 1036 does NOT include multi-part > FAQS etc in that manner, which is why the issue needs to be clarified. RFC1036 does not define "follow-up". Any "definition of followup" from RFC1036 is only found "between the lines". I think Bruce and Charles are wrong to refer to it as a definition. Here are links to all the RFC1036 sections which use the term: http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc1036/References.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc1036/Newsgroups.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc1036/Subject.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc1036/Summary.htm I find no wording above which definitely excludes or includes multi-parts. So appeals to RFC1036 as an authority on this are rhetoric, not reason. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GT4lO009502 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57GT4p0009501 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSujr009468 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-142.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.142]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a5c7da.9a7.15e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:14:18 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j57GCen11648 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:12:40 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21093 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHpvn0.82s@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:47:23 GMT Lines: 60 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >The current (RFC 1036) definition of "followup" includes current -- >indeed long-standing -- practices such as multi-part FAQs and other >multi-part articles. No, the consensus view here is that RFC 1036 does NOT include multi-part FAQS etc in that manner, which is why the issue needs to be clarified. >> To prevent excessively long lines, message >> identifiers from the parent's References field can be omitted, provided >> that the first and last one or more in that field are retained. >o "excessively long lines" is a non-issue due to the ability to fold > physical lines wherever linear whitespace is allowed, as has been the > case with RFC 822 message format and its predecessors even before that > format was adopted by RFC 850. >o there is of course no limit to the length of a logical (i.e. logically > unfolded) field. Never has been. That's the theory, but it ain't the practice. There was a long running thread on the ietf-822 list, which you may well remember. The References header got longer and longer. Different agents folded it in different ways (some even took a whole new line for each msg-id, which was actually quite nice if you wanted to look through it for some particular message). Moreover, some agents when replying took the old References list, added the new item, and refolded the whole thing in a completely different way. All quite permitted by RFC 2822, of course. BUT there was at least one agent (I never discovered which) which unfolded the whole line, added the new entry, and then did not refold, thus undoing all the good done by the preceding agents. Naturally, the total length eventually got beyoind 998. At which point some agent (not sure whether it was the same culprit or the next one in line) truncated the header after exactly 998 characters (usually in the middle of a <msg-id>) and passed it on, to the great confusion of the next agent to process it. I remember that, for some messages, I had to edit the text of the message by hand before my browser would show it to me (or was it before I could respond, I am not sure). So long as such broken agents exist in the wild, the only safe procedure is to prune the References so that it never exceeds 998, folded or not. And preferably well before 998, because in practice a reading agent never needs more than two or three msg-ids in order to generate a proper threading. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSw0J009496 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57GSw6u009495 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSuc1009466 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-142.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.142]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a5c7d8.9a7.15c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:14:16 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j57GCaf11634 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:12:36 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21090 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHptL7.7r0@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:03:07 GMT Lines: 59 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> EVERY header in USEFOR needs a brief intrpductory section >> explaining "what this header is good for". >Not if it's essentially the same as in 2822. Agreed. There is no need to write introductory text for the From header, because we have nothing to add to RFC 2822. But that is not the case for the References header. >>> A References header indicates the previously posted context >>> in which the article was created. >That's not always and not necessarily the case. >> effectively, you can deduce a tree or, more generally, a >> DAG >Is that a "directed acyclic graph" ? Yes. > Whatever it is, this is >not always and not necessarily the case. Yes it is. If you are not trying to describe at least a DAG (of which trees and linear lists are a particular case), then you have no business putting a References header in your article. That is what Forrest is worried about. Note that I don't want to include the term "DAG" in any published text. And note also that my current USEPRO text is only telling you how to construct a tree (though it does point out, as does RFC 2822, that it has deliberately limited itself to that). Nevertheless, you cannot prevent non-trees. Every time someone tries to followup to two precursors, and manually attempts to fix up the References to reflect that (and people DO try to do that from time to time), then that someone has constructed a DAG. We have to live with that, because we cannot prevent it. But I am not aware of anyone (trolls apart) who has ever tried to construct, for example, a References header with a loop in it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSvrT009491 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57GSva0009489 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSuBn009465 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-142.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.142]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a5c7d6.9a7.15a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:14:14 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j57GCZ011630 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:12:35 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21089 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHpt0I.7nK@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:50:42 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >It would surely kill USEFOR for good, yes. No "threads", no >nonsense, no aclycic graphs. A msg-id-list is simply a list >of msg-id-s, ready. Harald's wording (or your version of it) >was fine, any additional comma in 3.2.2 is asking for trouble. No, the <msg-id-list> in the References header is not any random collection of <msg-id>s. It is subject to constraints (e.g. that a precursor does not come later in the list that any followup to it). You can express this by referring to the rule for constructing it in USEPOR (which is what my currently proposed text does), or you can express it by writing some similar rules into USEFOR (which is what Forrest has suggested), or you can express it by talking about parents coming earlier than children (which is what my earlier suggestion did, though not using the words 'parent' and 'child'). What you cannot do is to say nothing at all. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSvYg009492 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57GSvS3009490 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GSuhF009467 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-142.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.142]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a5c7d9.9a7.15d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:14:17 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j57GCds11643 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:12:39 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21092 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHpurH.7yE@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoDrL.qM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4F3BC.3FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:28:29 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A4F3BC.3FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >... Add authentication= with a reference >to the new NNTPauth, Russ said that this is a good idea. >Alexey would warn us if NNTPauth is blocked. OK, that makes 3 people happy with that idea. >That didn't change "x-", 2045 had attribute := token, and >x-token is a special case of extension-token unrelated to >attribute. >x-token is only used in mechanism (7bit, 8bit, etc.), in >subtype, and in type (indirectly), not in any parameter. OK, I looked again, and x-token is for use in experimental media types (text/x-my-funny-text) and encodings (x-yenc) that have not been standardized or registered. RFC 2048 (which is the proper place to say such things) is silent on x-tokens used as attributes, though the folklore is certainly that they are available for use, and would never be standardized/registered as such. But, coming back to Injection-Info, there is no media type involved, so we write whatever we think fit. In which case, I most certainly think that we should allow x-attributes for injecting agents that wish to include further information that does not fit into any of the categories provided (and that is also what we said in draft-13, so we have already decided it once). >2049 is "minimal MIME conformance", 2231 did not update 2049. >Anyway, for USEFOR we need security considerations about 2231: > MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. > Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters > like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined > in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass simple algorithms > trying to analyze MIME parts. Posibly. Does anyone else want to see that written into our Security Considerations? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GEIFb007922 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57GEIie007921 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57GEGC8007914 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-142.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.142]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 42a5c7d7.9a7.15b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:14:15 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j57GCbI11639 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:12:38 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21091 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHptz9.7u3@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:11:33 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> There is substantial existing usage of UT and GMT. Therefore it _has_ >> to be a MUST accept. >There is substantial existing usage of PST/MST/EST too. Well I have never seen one, whereas when I last looked something like 20% of articles in my news spool used GMT (and they weren't all from people who lived in Greenwich :-) ). > (And a quibble: >there is substantial existing usage of GMT. I don't recall any usage of >UT at all.) That is true. UT just got dragged into the draft alongside GMT. It could be omitted without loss. >However, in the Date header, EST has a protocol-defined meaning. Only in an obs- part of RFC 2822 which we have chosen to exclude (though agents MAY use that interpretation if they want, and I suppose any Australians who use it will be in breach of something, and their articles will be discarded as 'stale', and they will put it down to some dastardly pommie plot :-( ). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57FR8TP004013 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57FR8vk004012 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57FR89p004005 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E44A29936; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57FR2qv017221(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:27:02 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57FR1v4017220(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:27:02 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Subject: OT: "UT" Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:26:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071126.58789.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 6 2005 19:08, Russ Allbery wrote: > I don't recall any usage of > UT at all. Well, there's substantial use of "UTC", though that is not and never has been a valid standard zone abbreviation in date-time in the message format. It's a violation of RFCs 561, 724, 733, 822, 850, 1036, and 2822. Fortunately, nobody has proposed accepting it as if it were valid. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57FHG7a003347 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57FHGH7003346 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57FHF78003340 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F5129930; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57FHChs017022(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:17:12 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j57FHAni017021(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:17:11 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:16:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506071116.46640.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Mon June 6 2005 12:36, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. > > >Already covered by 2822. > > Indeed, but worth reiterating because it would actually break the > protocols. Precisely how would "PDT" "break the protocols" in a way that "UT" would not? > It has said SHOULD NOT generate UT and GMT in our drafts for many years, > and nobody has complained before. This is not the first time the issue has come up. In any event, your argument is a misplaced "appeal to tradition" fallacy. > I could easily be persuaded to promote > it to MUST NOT if someone asks for it. Are you formally proposing that? I have said about as clearly as possible that I feel that we should conform to RFC 2822 format as closely as possible. Since 2822 clearly says MUST NOT generate for alphabetic zone indication, yes, that is what I have proposed. Specifically, I propose no deviations from RFC 2822 regarding date-time format. > >> News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > >> [RFC2822]. The obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822] is > >> excluded (except for some special use of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2 > >> below [and any other exceptions we choose to make ....]); Netnews agents > >> MAY accept that obsolete syntax but MUST NOT generate productions of it. > > >Making it longer and more convoluted isn't "helpful". Eliding it in > >favor of "[RFC2822]" would be helpful. > > That would be a technical change to the standard we are proposing. You are > usually the first to complain when editors make technical changes that the > WG has not discussed. > > This WG decided. more years ago than I care to remember, that it was > ludicrous to REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept > constructes that had Never Ever been seen in Netnews. You are mistaken in your implied assertion that handling of the standard alphabetic zones for parsing would would be "constructes [sic] that had Never [sic] Ever [sic] been seen in Netnews". RFC 850: 2.1.4 Date The Date line (formerly "Posted") is the date, in a format that must be acceptable both to the ARPANET and to the getdate routine, RFC 1036: The "Date" line (formerly "Posted") is the date that the message was originally posted to the network. Its format must be acceptable both in RFC-822 and to the getdate(3) routine that is provided with the Usenet software. I can of course dig up the aforementioned getdate routine source and demonstrate that it accepts all of the standard RFC 2822 (deprecated for new generation, required for parsing) alphabetic zone abbreviations plus a slew of others. As Russ has noted, there is *substantial* existing usage of alphabetic zone abbreviations. > That decision have never been challenged since then. Why are you raising > it now? Again, this has been discussed before. > IIRC, it was you who asked for <obs-zone> to be brought within our > standard. References, please. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57Cv0R7087544 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57Cv0af087543 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57CuxFS087531 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-223-220-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.223.220]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j57Cukgt019834 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A59991.2020505@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:56:49 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: >>Forrest>A References header indicates the previously posted context >>Forrest>in which the article was created. > > > That's not always and not necessarily the case. I understand people wish to relax the requirement that an article be "posted." I disagree. But, do you have any other cases which are outside the description? Frank, it seems like you want to push USEFOR to be basically ABNF only, with almost no semantics. Why would such a terse document merit its own separate RFC? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57CbPIf080553 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57CbP38080551 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:37:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57CbO6B080537 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 05:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0FA061B57; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07240-02; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:37:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA2B61AF3; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:24:29 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Cc: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <D31C74C83D426255121F35C6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> References is defined in 2822, while Xref and Supersedes are defined in USEFOR. I'll open a ticket on whether comments in References should be listed as SHOULD NOT generate or MUST NOT generate - saying MUST NOT generate would, I think, make it equivalent with replacing CFWS with FWS. Harald --On 7. juni 2005 07:26 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> >> New subject.... >> >> I was told earlier that the WG had a previous consensus that it would: >> a) not change definitions from RFC 2822 (where References has CFWS) >> b) allow CFWS wherever possible, with a "MUST accept/SHOULD NOT >> generate" clause for certain headers (including References). >> >> If this is indeed the previously documented consensus, then Forrest's >> comment is out of order - a reopening of past issues. > > CFWS was changed to FWS for Xref and Supersedes between April 2005 > (usefor-usefor-03) and May 2005 (usefor-usefor-04), so I thought any > "previously documented consensus" must not have been all that important. > > If you are you asking me to withhold objections until Last Call, > I will. We seem to finally have a real push to end this torture, > with either success or failure, in 10 weeks. I'm all for that. > > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57BQQ2n055649 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j57BQQjo055648 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j57BQPAI055637 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-37-223-220-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.37.223.220]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j57BQ3gE020496; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A5844E.9090407@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:26:06 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> CC: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: CFWS in References header References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > New subject.... > > I was told earlier that the WG had a previous consensus that it would: > a) not change definitions from RFC 2822 (where References has CFWS) > b) allow CFWS wherever possible, with a "MUST accept/SHOULD NOT > generate" clause for certain headers (including References). > > If this is indeed the previously documented consensus, then Forrest's > comment is out of order - a reopening of past issues. CFWS was changed to FWS for Xref and Supersedes between April 2005 (usefor-usefor-03) and May 2005 (usefor-usefor-04), so I thought any "previously documented consensus" must not have been all that important. If you are you asking me to withhold objections until Last Call, I will. We seem to finally have a real push to end this torture, with either success or failure, in 10 weeks. I'm all for that. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578WEh0093810 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j578WEpi093809 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578WES6093798 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A72F61AF3; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:32:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04181-09; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:32:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BFF61B4D; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:03:53 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <62AD13FE5CBD2F4E22C5DB92@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <874qcb3x43.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <874qcb3x43.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 6. juni 2005 16:05 -0700 Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> wrote: > Authentication identity is > very internal to the application and not generally of use or interest to > anyone outside that application except for audit purposes. > >> So I propose a new Injection-Info parameter >> authentication=<value> > >> Would people be happy with that? > > Works for me. I think Russ made a very good argument that revealing the authentication identity in the Injection-Info is a mistake. Name it identifier-that-the-sysadmin-can-use-to-figure-out-who-sent-this, and it may make sense. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578Vlah093636 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j578VlRc093635 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578VkkP093621 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE58D61B58; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04196-06; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C660C61B56; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:27:32 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: CFWS in References header Message-ID: <6DDF4175A3B745EBD50383B6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> New subject.... I was told earlier that the WG had a previous consensus that it would: a) not change definitions from RFC 2822 (where References has CFWS) b) allow CFWS wherever possible, with a "MUST accept/SHOULD NOT generate" clause for certain headers (including References). If this is indeed the previously documented consensus, then Forrest's comment is out of order - a reopening of past issues. Did I hear it wrong that this was a previous consensus? Harald --On 3. juni 2005 01:45 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > BTW, CFWS in References is a silly unnecessary complication. (CFWS in > any structured header > is a bad idea,IMNSHO. - I implement article processing software.) > > usepro Transitional Arrangements even admits comments in References will > break existing software. > > So, why are comments going to be allowed in the References header? > > Is the idea to make References irrelevant and unreliable, and then we > don't > care that it cannot be parsed by legacy software? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578Vkp2093623 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j578Vkov093622 for ietf-usefor-skb; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j578VjSA093607 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B0961AF3; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04181-07; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA6261B4D; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:31:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:09:09 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <6024687CE64910DA7D2748FF@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On 6. juni 2005 18:35 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > What does "thread" actually mean in the "Real World" (TM). IN this > context, surely it means a "linear list", which is near enough to its > meaning as used in so called "threaded newsreaders" to be OK in this sort > of context. I have rarely seen an example of a linear thread..... Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j571Co8S088915 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j571Cn2f088914 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j571CkRu088907 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfSZv-0005NH-Pg for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:08:27 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.39 ([62.80.58.39]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:08:27 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.39 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:08:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:09:16 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 72 Message-ID: <42A4F3BC.3FE5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoDrL.qM@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.39 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > the IANA registry for each media type includes details > of all the parameters appropriate for that media type. Checking draft-lilly-text-troff-04.txt and RfC 3676, yes, it does. > we have not proposed an IANA Registry for Injection-Info > parameters (thoug we could if we were so minded). Not at the moment. Add authentication= with a reference to the new NNTPauth, Russ said that this is a good idea. Alexey would warn us if NNTPauth is blocked. > Which means that <attribute>s are different from <token>s, > which is what I said. That didn't change "x-", 2045 had attribute := token, and x-token is a special case of extension-token unrelated to attribute. x-token is only used in mechanism (7bit, 8bit, etc.), in subtype, and in type (indirectly), not in any parameter. Maybe I should test x-9bit for the nonets in RfC 4042. > 2045 most certainly did "strange things" with <x-token>s, > and <attribute>s inherit those same "strange things". In my copy <attribute> comes nowhere near to any <x-token>, <extension-token>, <iana-token>, or <ietf-token>. It's in "appendix A - collected grammar", the last three pages. "x-attribute" does not exist, it's a hallucination. If you say that you want to create it from scratch it's fine, you could use the SPF trick. Or merge it with 2231 <shudder /> > You just tell people that, if they post through your server, > then the Injection-Info header will identify them. If they > don't like that, then they have to go to a different server. > That is the EU law (slightly simplified, I grant you). Anoymous and pseudonumous access is a right in a German law, and the threads discussing this issue put together in a row are worse than our "Re: ferences" here. I'm not directly affected, my favourite server is news.clara.net in the UK ;-) > In general, the Americans are less squeamish :-( . They can't spell privacy without a dictionary. They don't understand why any @gmail address is begging for a *PLONK*. > That vulnerability is nothing to do with RFC 2231. It's about MIME, and this part of the debate was about USEFOR 2.3 "MIME Conformance": | User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME-conformance in | [RFC2049] and MUST also support [RFC2231]. 2049 is "minimal MIME conformance", 2231 did not update 2049. Anyway, for USEFOR we need security considerations about 2231: MIME security considerations are discussed in [RFC2046]. Note that applying some [RFC2231] extensions for parameters like multi-line paramters on a boundary parameter as defined in [RFC2046] might be abused to bypass simple algorithms trying to analyze MIME parts. That's all. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56Nd51T083481 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56Nd5Z2083480 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:39:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56Nd4Uq083474 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfR73-0002kB-MA for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:34:33 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.39 ([62.80.58.39]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:34:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.39 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:34:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: OT: EST (was: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases?) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:36:13 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 11 Message-ID: <42A4DDED.6825@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.39 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > BTW, please will someone remind me the name of that timezone > in Australia (wherever) that is abbreviated as "EST" See <http://mid.gmane.org/11461.1118026649@munnari.OZ.AU> for an opinion, but the whole thread is funny - Mark Davis meets Clive Feather to discuss strange beasts like "BDT" = "British Daylight saving Time"... ;-) Apparently the NNTP "last call" goes well, and LTRU is also almost ready with 3066bis. Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N8Lrg081739 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56N8Lkf081738 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N8L6Y081732 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j56N8KFR013266 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:20 -0700 Received: (qmail 28856 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jun 2005 23:08:20 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? In-Reply-To: <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:36:14 GMT") References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:08:20 -0700 Message-ID: <87zmu32ie3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > There is substantial existing usage of UT and GMT. Therefore it _has_ > to be a MUST accept. There is substantial existing usage of PST/MST/EST too. (And a quibble: there is substantial existing usage of GMT. I don't recall any usage of UT at all.) > Indeed, but worth reiterating because it would actually break the > protocols. BTW, please will someone remind me the name of that timezone > in Australia (wherever) that is abbreviated as "EST"). Eastern Standard Time. :) However, in the Date header, EST has a protocol-defined meaning. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N55Pd081538 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56N55uK081537 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:05:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp3.Stanford.EDU (smtp3.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N54hf081531 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:05:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp3.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j56N50Zg007892 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:05:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 28611 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jun 2005 23:05:00 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues In-Reply-To: <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:56:12 GMT") References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:05:00 -0700 Message-ID: <874qcb3x43.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Ah! So it depends what "hat" the guy is wearing at a particular time. Right. The authorization identity is the "hat," so to speak, and the authentication identity is who you proved you were in order to get to wear the hat. > E.g. Alice and Bob may both be entitled to wear the "sysadmin" hat, but > each of them is not necessarily wearing that hat each time they > authenticate (they sometimes just post as themselves). So when Alice > authenticates (as Alice), she may (or may not) claim the authorization > "sysadmin", and presumably the server knows that Alice and Bob have > "sysadmin" privileges, but that Mallet most definitely does not. Right. >> Your authorization identity is generally going to be the thing that >> goes into sender and the like. > Hmm! I am not quite convinced of that. RFC 2822 (which we follow) is > fairly clear as to what goes into the Sender header. Yes, it's the authorization identity: The "Sender:" field specifies the mailbox of the agent responsible for the actual transmission of the message. For example, if a secretary were to send a message for another person, the mailbox of the secretary would appear in the "Sender:" field and the mailbox of the actual author would appear in the "From:" field. What's confusing is that there is yet another level of even weaker binding in the From header, but the key part of the above is "the agent responsible for the actual transmission of the message." Whether Alice or Bob sent the message, "secretary" was the agent that sent the message. There are just various people who are authorized to use that agent and act as the secretary. Alice and Bob may not even *have* their own mailboxes; they just have separate identities in the authentication system because that's a good security practice. The easiest way to think about it from the security standpoint is to observe that, in general, the *only* thing that cares about the authentication identity is your authorization component. Once you finish the authentication and authorization process, the authorization identity is the effective identity for the rest of the application; the authentication identity is used only for the authorization process and for internal audit trails. Sender is intended to capture the case where one agent sends out mail on behalf of another agent, *not* the case where multiple people can control a single agent. Authentication identity is very internal to the application and not generally of use or interest to anyone outside that application except for audit purposes. > So I propose a new Injection-Info parameter > authentication=<value> > Would people be happy with that? Works for me. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N4Fg1081475 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56N4F8d081474 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56N4D0X081463 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfQYv-0006b6-W8 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:18 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.39 ([62.80.58.39]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:17 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.39 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:59:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:00:51 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 44 Message-ID: <42A4D5A3.419E@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.39 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> I don't think it is efficient for the group to consider this >> problem once now for USEFOR and then once again later for >> USEPRO. > I agree entirely with the above. And I disagree entirely. The data structure (USEFOR) is clear, the algorithms (USEPRO) will fit. > There is no way that we can publish USEFOR before we publish > USEPRO. There is no way that this WG will still exist in ten weeks without an approved USEFOR RfC submitted to the in-queue. Or at the very minimum in "last call". > EVERY header in USEFOR needs a brief intrpductory section > explaining "what this header is good for". Not if it's essentially the same as in 2822. And saying that a msg-id-list is a list of msg-ids is a waste of time. It's like saying that id-domain is a domain. The only reason why you are forced to say the latter is because you insist on the vague and bad id-right idea found in 2822. >> A References header indicates the previously posted context >> in which the article was created. That's not always and not necessarily the case. > effectively, you can deduce a tree or, more generally, a > DAG Is that a "directed acyclic graph" ? Whatever it is, this is not always and not necessarily the case. The msg-id-list is a list of msg-ids. > it is probably time to post a fresh version of those texts, > taking account of discussions these last few days. That would be the "internal last call" for USEFOR, good. Bye. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56MWt1T079175 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56MWt1H079174 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56MWriO079167 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:32:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DfQ5P-0002UQ-Kb for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:28:47 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.39 ([62.80.58.39]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:28:47 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.39 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:28:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:29:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A4CE4D.7A29@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.39 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > We are agreed that the References heaader should only be used > in situations where threading the articles by reading agents > would make sense. This would be an agreement over my dead body, but I don't feel like I'm dead. We "agreed" to describe the followup procedure as is in USEPRO. The mere word "thread" is taboo for USEFOR. > So using that word, in what is only meant as an introductory > remark to the References header section, would surely > reinforce that intention. It would surely kill USEFOR for good, yes. No "threads", no nonsense, no aclycic graphs. A msg-id-list is simply a list of msg-id-s, ready. Harald's wording (or your version of it) was fine, any additional comma in 3.2.2 is asking for trouble. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56Jidfg063026 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56Jidk8063017 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibHb062971 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f7.3852.76 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:43 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56Jego01755 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:42 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21079 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHoEB7.u2@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:35:31 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> Yes, that says the right things >+1 >> How about: >Also fine, maybe better. > [3.2.x propossal] >>| in order to facilitate the display or retrieval, by reading >>| and other agents, of threads of related articles. >It's not only for "threads of", it can be anything the poster >wants as a "relation" for "display or rertrieval", it can be >also a "relation" unknown for most readers (e.g. follwup in a >different TLH, or article posted as reply to a mail in a list) But we don't formally define "threads". We are agreed that the References heaader should only be used in situations where threading the articles by reading agents would make sense. So using that word, in what is only meant as an introductory remark to the References header section, would surely reinforce that intention. What does "thread" actually mean in the "Real World" (TM). IN this context, surely it means a "linear list", which is near enough to its meaning as used in so called "threaded newsreaders" to be OK in this sort of context. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JidbK063015 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56JidVL063004 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibZm062968 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f6.3852.75 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:42 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56Jee501744 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:40 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21077 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHo9zF.CM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0935A.10CD@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:02:03 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A0935A.10CD@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >You could also use the trick in the most recent SPF drafts - >not as good as an RfC, but the ABNF passed Bill's checker: >| header = "Received-SPF:" [CFWS] result FWS [comment FWS] >| [ key-value-list ] CRLF >[...] >| key-value-list = key-value-pair *( ";" [CFWS] key-value-pair ) >| [";"] >| >| key-value-pair = key [CFWS] "=" ( dot-atom / quoted-string ) >| key = "client-ip" / "envelope-from" / "helo" / >| "problem" / "receiver" / "identity" / >| mechanism / "x-" name / name >Continued later, I've to Cc: this part to the SPF editor, bye. Then I need to wait for your "continued later", because what you have said gives no guidance as to which <-atom / quoted-string> is syntactically allowed for each of the various <key>s. For example, "client-ip" presumably expects an <IPv4address> or <IPv6address>. "envelope-from" expects an <addr-spec>. And so on. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JidqK063024 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56JiddM063018 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibGg062974 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6fa.3852.79 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:46 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56JefI01750 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:41 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21078 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHoDrL.qM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:23:45 GMT Lines: 121 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> RFC 2045 makes a special case for <x-token>s, and we want to >> buy into that. >2045 / 2048 define IANA registries for the Content-Type among >others, but AFAIK not for any attribute=value parameters. AIUI, the IANA registry for each media type includes details of all the parameters appropriate for that media type. >And I won't buy into any "let's create another IANA registry" >scheme - unless my aim is a new IESG "[Discuss]" record... ;-) No, we have not proposed an IANA Registry for Injection-Info parameters (thoug we could if we were so minded). >> by the time we get to RFC 2231, <token>s have morphed into >> <attribute>s. >Our copies of 2045 are apparently not strictly identical, 2231 >only adds initial-section and other-sctions to attribute, and >for that trick it removes "*" from the attribute-char set. Which means that <attribute>s are different from <token>s, which is what I said. >And maybe because they were lazy they also removed "'" and "%" >using the same attribute-char set also for the values, and not >only for the attribute. >2045 or 2231 don't do strange things with x-attributes, that's >a hallucination. 2045 most certainly did "strange things" with <x-token>s, and <attribute>s inherit those same "strange things". > IMHO we don't need x-attributes. Wwe have little choice. They come with the territory. >> Whatever is wrong with designing formats that simplify the >> things that people are going to use them for? >If some Injection-Info parameters allow to identify users by >third parties without the user's consent no legit German news >server can use them, and so their potential "user-friendliness >for killfiling" is moot. Forget it, that's irrelevant. You just tell people that, if they post through your server, then the Injection-Info header will identify them. If they don't like that, then they have to go to a different server. That is the EU law (slightly simplified, I grant you). But for servers that don't care to include names, there are other options. In general, the Americans are less squeamish :-( . >>>> they SHOULD come in a prescribed order >>> See (a), it's not worth it. >> It _could_ be a USEAGE matter >2045 says that "the ordering of parameters is not significant". Indeed, and this makes a SHOULD exception. But I have already said USEAGE would be good enough for that bit. >> It the "posting-account" parameter runs into legal >> difficulties, then use a "logging-data" parameter which is >> designed to be inscrutable without the cooperation of the ISP >Okay, for USEFOR all we need is the syntax, no legal advice. USEFOR doesn't give any legal advice. It just provides some facilities which which injecting agents may or may not choose to use. There might be some legal advice in USEAGE. >>>| IMPORTANT NOTE: These mechanisms end up being somewhat >>>| gibbous when they actually are used. As such, these >>>| mechanisms should not be used lightly; they should be >>>| reserved for situations where a real need for them exists. >> Yes, but that is similar to my wording. >Sure, but either you want 2231 I18N, then gibbous or not it's >the way it is, or you don't want it, then the SPF trick with >its key-value-pair bypasses 2231. So? My wording was quite happy for the 2231 I18N to be used. It was the multiline stuff that was being discouraged. >Wanting 2231 and at the same time not wanting it is the weird >"MUST accept SHOULD NOT use" stuff again - I really hate this. There is no "MUST accept SHOULD NOT use" wording in any text proposed for 2231, AFAIAA. >> Please be more specific which risks/vulnerabilities you are >> talking about. >http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/836088 That vulnerability is nothing to do with RFC 2231. It affects message/partial which is hardly used in News, so I do not see any point even in mentioning it in Security Considerations. But if people want it mentioned, that is no problem. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56Jidwb063025 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56JidDx063019 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibIs062973 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f9.3852.78 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56JeXp01722 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:33 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21073 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHo8sE.n3M@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:36:14 GMT Lines: 104 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 3 2005 08:17, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> You MUST accept "UT" and "GMT". >RFC 2822 already says that. No "exception" here. Sigh! But we have already excluded that bit of RFC 2822 (so this is an "exception" to that "exclusion"). >> You SHOULD NOT generate "UT" and "GMT". >There has never been any convincing argument that there should be a >deviation from RFC 2822 (and RFC 1123) here. > Ancient implementations >might well be non-conforming to what we specify for requirements on >new generation, and no argument has been presented as to why that >should differ from 2822 (viz. use numeric offsets only for generation). >I.e., while this does represent an "exception", there has been no >justification for such. There is substantial existing usage of UT and GMT. Therefore it _has_ to be a MUST accept. It is, morevoer, important to get it right because the News protocols _require_ <date-time>s to be compared for earlier/later (a requirement that never arises in Email AFAIAW). >> You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. >Already covered by 2822. Indeed, but worth reiterating because it would actually break the protocols. BTW, please will someone remind me the name of that timezone in Australia (wherever) that is abbreviated as "EST"). >.... Especially, there is no justification for simultaneously >being more restrictive (MUST accept -> MAY accept) for some alphabetic >zones and less restrictive (MUST NOT generate -> SHOULD NOT generate) >for one particular zone ... It has said SHOULD NOT generate UT and GMT in our drafts for many years, and nobody has complained before. I could easily be persuaded to promote it to MUST NOT if someone asks for it. Are you formally proposing that? > ... (purely coincidental that that happens to be >a Document Editor's zone, and that said Editor's mail to this mailing >list remains non-compliant with 2822 while the vast majority of >messages are compliant... :-). I do not find your smiley amusing, since you have made this snide remark before. As I have explained to you previously, I read this mailing list in a local newsgroup, and I have better things to do that spend time upgrading my News software while this WG is still debating what News is supposed to look like. As for the gateway from my news-server to this list, there seemed little point in changing that "GMT", because it is a MUST accept for Email. > >> So that paragraph in 2.1 could more helpfully say: >> >> News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of >> [RFC2822]. The obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822] is >> excluded (except for some special use of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2 >> below [and any other exceptions we choose to make ....]); Netnews agents >> MAY accept that obsolete syntax but MUST NOT generate productions of it. >Making it longer and more convoluted isn't "helpful". Eliding it in >favor of "[RFC2822]" would be helpful. That would be a technical change to the standard we are proposing. You are usually the first to complain when editors make technical changes that the WG has not discussed. This WG decided. more years ago than I care to remember, that it was ludicrous to REQUIRE all News software to be upgraded to accept constructes that had Never Ever been seen in Netnews. They "MAY" accept them, of course, and agents that are intended for joint Email/News use likely will. That decision have never been challenged since then. Why are you raising it now? >> What I would like to see is <obs-phrase> (possibly renamed as >> <extended-phrase>) treated as a special case with similar status to "UT" >> and "GMT". >As noted above, there seems to be no justification for the deviations; >it appears to be a personal prejudice. IIRC, it was you who asked for <obs-zone> to be brought within our standard. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56Jida0063016 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56JidiX063006 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibM5062970 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f4.3852.73 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56JeYL01728 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:34 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21074 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHo90A.3t@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603110301.9545B-100000@spsystems.net> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:40:58 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603110301.9545B-100000@spsystems.net> Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> writes: >> Eh? What is "AAAA"? >An AAAA record is the IPv6 equivalent of an A record. IPv6 addresses are >four times as long as IPv4 addresses, so the name seemed obvious... :-) Ah! I see. It now says: | 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or | "AAAA" record, which SHOULD identify the actual host inserting | this <path-identity> and, ideally, should also be "mailable" (see | below). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JidXJ063013 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56JicVr063003 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibAQ062969 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f5.3852.74 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:41 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56JeaF01733 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:36 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21075 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHo98I.6H@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603121645.9545G-100000@spsystems.net> <200506031504.50459.blilly@erols.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:45:54 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506031504.50459.blilly@erols.com> Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> writes: >On Fri June 3 2005 12:34, Henry Spencer wrote: >> We used both -- rather cautiously -- as references when we wrote C News. >And a year ago we discussed what C news (and INN) do and do not >treat as delimiters. >Why are we still flogging this horse? We indeed flogged it very thoroughly, and one thing we concluded was that aguments related to what some implementation of B News did simply did not wash. But the text now proposed is the final outcome of that discussion a year ago, and what is and is not allowed in both <path-identity>s and <path-delimiters> has been reduced to a minimum that should cause no problems whatsoever on the existing network. So stop flogging. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JidNZ063023 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56Jid8E063014 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56JibYo062972 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-138.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.138]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4a6f8.3852.77 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:41:44 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56JecE01739 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:40:38 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21076 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHo9po.9z@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:56:12 GMT Lines: 72 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> Whichever. I find the distinction made by the SASL standards far from >> clear. Is a man allowed to choose any string he likes as his >> "authorization identity", or does it have to be something previously >> agreed with the server? >It's fairly clear if you understand the distinction between authentication >and authorization. Authentication says who you are. Authorization says >what you're allowed to do. The authorization identity is the identity >you're assuming on the server and with which ACLs are associated -- it may >be, for instance, a group account shared by several people, or a role in >which you're acting. The authentication identity is who you actually are, >namely some identified user who has access to that role. Depending on the >authentication mechanism, the two identities may live in different >namespaces. Ah! So it depends what "hat" the guy is wearing at a particular time. E.g. Alice and Bob may both be entitled to wear the "sysadmin" hat, but each of them is not necessarily wearing that hat each time they authenticate (they sometimes just post as themselves). So when Alice authenticates (as Alice), she may (or may not) claim the authorization "sysadmin", and presumably the server knows that Alice and Bob have "sysadmin" privileges, but that Mallet most definitely does not. >Your authorization identity is generally going to be the thing that goes >into sender and the like. Hmm! I am not quite convinced of that. RFC 2822 (which we follow) is fairly clear as to what goes into the Sender header. >> OK, just call it "auth": >> Injection-Info: dodgy.net; posting-host=dialup-123.dodgy.net; >> auth="some-string" >It's generally wise to never use the term "auth" in a security context >because it's ambiguous on whether you're talking about the authentication >identity or the authorization identity. You need at least "authn" or >"authz", and it's probably better to just spell it out. >> Or else use it in a "posting-account" parameter. >That would be the authorization identity, not the authentication identity. Ah! That makes sense. So I propose a new Injection-Info parameter authentication=<value> Would people be happy with that? >> I just want to make sure that such authentication-identities can be >> used, and that there exists a parameter clearly suitable for the >> purpose. >Yup. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS7ki048186 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56GS7ox048185 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS6BG048154 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-93.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.93]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4765d.8de5.3436 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:14:21 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56GCht29462 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:12:43 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21070 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHo6KK.MGx@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:48:20 GMT Lines: 123 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >> I have deliberately not discussed USEPRO. I believe that we can do one >> thing at a time. >You cannot change a definition in USEFOR and ignore that it requires >a change in USEPRO. Fragility due to dependency chains is a well-studied >effect. >These are companion documents split only because they were too verbose. >I do not believe they can be edited, issued, or discussed independently. >I do not think it is going to be a "win" to push out USEFOR, and then >see how in the world we can write a USEPRO that requires no changes to >USEFOR. >I don't think it is efficient for the group to consider this problem once >now for USEFOR and then once again later for USEPRO. I agree entirely with the above. There is no way that we can publish USEFOR before we publish USEPRO. Maybe we can leave USEAGE until the other two are out of the way. >> At the moment, USEFOR contains very little information about how to >> interpret ANY header. Are you suggesting to change this? >I wrote "how to interpret," but I did not mean "how to display." Indeed. EVERY header in USEFOR needs a brief intrpductory section explaining "what this header is good for". I think References is the only header lacking that in USEFOR-04, but I have already proposed text to fill that gap. Often, that introduction is sufficient for the "semantics" of that header, especially if the protocols in USEPRO tells you exactly what to do when you encounter it. But if agents are going to use it for a variety of purposes, then more may be needed, since USEPRO is not the place to go into detail of how to display things (though USEAGE might be). >So, instead of making an attempt at specifying the conditions that >it is acceptable, we have to allow it without limitation? No. We describe the intended "purposes" of the header. In this case to facilitate "threading", "retrieval" (of parents) and "killfiling" (for killing whole subthreads) (my proposed introductory text mentions the first two of those, which I think is enough). If you create a References header, then you should be aware it is likely to be used for those purposes, and if those are not what you intend, then you shouldn't be creating it. >> >> But changing USEFOR to contain this level of information would change >> the split between USEFOR and USEPRO, and I don't see a good reason for >> that. >I think that's because you confuse semantics and implementation. >Here is a specification of "semantics" (my proposed References definition >for USEFOR, with some RFC2822 text, and a correct trimming algorithm, >unlike the ambiguity currently in USEPRO.) > A References header indicates the previously posted context in which > the article was created. That is an "introductory text", but it does not really tell you anything interesting. The one I proposed goes further. > The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's > "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's > "Message-ID:" field. To prevent excessively long lines, message > identifiers from the parent's References field can be omitted, provided > that the first and last one or more in that field are retained. But that is just telling you how to construct it, and since that is going to be described in USEPRO, it does not need to be mentioned here (especially the bit about pruning). You might argue that if (from USEPRO) you know how to construct it, then you have sufficient information to work out what it "means". I don't entirely buy that, and in an earlier draft of my "suggestions" I had some "semantics" text telling what parent/child relationships you could deduce from it (effectively, you can deduce a tree or, more generally, a DAG). But I took that text out because people did not think it necessary. I could be persuaded to put it back. >Here is a specification of "implementation" (text from USEPRO-03) > If the precursor did not have a References header (F-3.2.1), .... Yes, but that text is way out of date. I have already posted my suggested text, which tells you how to contruct a References header in the general case given a "parent" article, and then invokes that for the followup case in particular. It also ties up the pruning bit more precisely, because Frank asked for that. >Semantics based is clearer, complete, and shorter already, but the USEPRO >text I showed here is not complete. That is because you have ignored the more recent texts posted to this list. Come to think of it, it is probably time to post a fresh version of those texts, taking account of discussions these last few days. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS7Vv048174 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56GS74F048165 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS5eU048151 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-93.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.93]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4765a.8de5.3433 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:14:18 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56GCiH29467 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:12:44 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21071 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHo6zG.MJv@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:57:15 GMT Lines: 38 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> writes: >Forrest J. Cavalier III: >> This is in RFC2822, which I copied... >> >> The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's >> "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the >> parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). >> >> and one of your criticisms was that "contents of" was nebulous, and >> you provided an example. >> >> Are you saying the phrase "contents of" is not nebulous in RFC2822, >> but would be nebulous in USEFOR? Can you explain? >The contents of the parent's "Message-ID:"-field will sometimes >contain more than just a <msg-id>, like trailing whitespace, or >a comment, or worse. Yes, we know that the definition of "content" in USEFOR is not consistent with the way it is used in USEPRO. That was pointed out on this list months ago, and the document editors are discussing ways to fix it. May I suggest that you all stick to the important technical issues under discussion, and leave it to the document editors to sort out matters of consistency in the texts. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS7ET048172 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j56GS7bJ048166 for ietf-usefor-skb; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j56GS5c4048152 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-93.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.93]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a4765b.8de5.3434 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:14:19 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j56GCkw29471 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:12:46 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21072 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHo7FH.MMw@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> <20050603200555.GA26194@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:06:53 GMT Lines: 46 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <20050603200555.GA26194@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> writes: >* Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> [2005-06-03 15:01:37 +0000]: >> 3.2.1 References >> >> | The References header is used to refer to earlier articles (e.g. >> | followups refer to their precursors), in order to facilitate the >More confusion. You now say that the references header refers to >"earlier" articles, while an important point of using this complicated >followup/references definitions is to allow for multi-part FAQs to >be posted "at the same time". "earlier" seems to contradict this. OK s/earlier/previous/ Clearly, References headers are only appropriate when there as a sequence of articles with some ordering. "Earlier" implies an ordering in time (which is true for normal followups). "Previous" is regularly used to imply an ordering in other senses, e.g. of items in a list. >I'll try this again: > A "followup" is an article that follows up on the contents of another > article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References header > identifying that precursor. No, I think the consensus of this group is to keep "followup" (and its converse "precursor") for the genuine reply/response situation, and Harald's text (or my slight variation of it) expresses that. The word "parent" may be useful, and indeed I have proposed to use it in USEPRO. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j55D3n7E078320 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 06:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j55D3nwk078319 for ietf-usefor-skb; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 06:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j55D3k4D078293 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 06:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FDC2991D; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j55D3eIu024683(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.25 2005/06/05 08:09:15) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:03:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j55D3cXH024663(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:03:39 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:03:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603161944.12622A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603161944.12622A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506050903.19412.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 16:40, Henry Spencer wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > > Because you again tried to resolve vagueness in 1036 by appealing to the > > > B2.11 code, as if it was a model implementation of 1036, which it wasn't. > > > > No, the code provides insight into what the 1036 text "punctuation" > > means. > > The only way it can provide such insight is if you first assume that it is > meant to be an exact implementation of 1036 (or equivalently that 1036 was > written as a specification matching the B2.11 code). Incorrect. The only "assumption" is that when the RFC 1036/B News 2.11 authors -- the same people -- write "punctuation" or an abbreviation thereof in the same limited context in the same timeframe with an explicit cross- reference between documents, that it in fact means the same thing in that limited context. > That assumption is > unsubstantiated, and must be considered highly questionable given the > numerous differences between what 1036 says and what B2.11 does. Utter nonsense. The real, minimal "assumption" is quite reasonable, unlike other claims that have been made in this WG, e.g. that the term is based on some Unicode or POSIX set (both Unicode and POSIX post-date 1036). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j540SieI019242 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j540SiWZ019241 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j540SgDD019233 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeMTG-0003Lk-Sf for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:25:02 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.82 ([62.80.58.82]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:25:02 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.82 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:25:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:18:48 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 86 Message-ID: <42A0F368.73F3@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.82 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > RFC 2045 makes a special case for <x-token>s, and we want to > buy into that. 2045 / 2048 define IANA registries for the Content-Type among others, but AFAIK not for any attribute=value parameters. And I won't buy into any "let's create another IANA registry" scheme - unless my aim is a new IESG "[Discuss]" record... ;-) > by the time we get to RFC 2231, <token>s have morphed into > <attribute>s. Our copies of 2045 are apparently not strictly identical, 2231 only adds initial-section and other-sctions to attribute, and for that trick it removes "*" from the attribute-char set. And maybe because they were lazy they also removed "'" and "%" using the same attribute-char set also for the values, and not only for the attribute. 2045 or 2231 don't do strange things with x-attributes, that's a hallucination. IMHO we don't need x-attributes. As long as the parameters are unique there's no additional 2231 problem. >>> a) folding SHOULD NOT happen in silly places >> Let's better forget it. > Well, it's in the present text of USEFOR. Okay. OTOH that's a general rule, 2.2.3 in 2822 says "folding SHOULD be limited to placing the CRLF at higher-level syntactic breaks". For Injection-Info that's the semicolon. > Whatever is wrong with designing formats that simplify the > things that people are going to use them for? If some Injection-Info parameters allow to identify users by third parties without the user's consent no legit German news server can use them, and so their potential "user-friendliness for killfiling" is moot. Forget it, that's irrelevant. >>> they SHOULD come in a prescribed order >> See (a), it's not worth it. > It _could_ be a USEAGE matter 2045 says that "the ordering of parameters is not significant". 2231 adds that "while MIME does prohibit modification of MIME headers during transport, it is still possible that parameters will be reordered when user agent level processing is done." If you want to "buy into" this 2231 I18N you get it wholesale. > It the "posting-account" parameter runs into legal > difficulties, then use a "logging-data" parameter which is > designed to be inscrutable without the cooperation of the ISP Okay, for USEFOR all we need is the syntax, no legal advice. >>| IMPORTANT NOTE: These mechanisms end up being somewhat >>| gibbous when they actually are used. As such, these >>| mechanisms should not be used lightly; they should be >>| reserved for situations where a real need for them exists. > Yes, but that is similar to my wording. Sure, but either you want 2231 I18N, then gibbous or not it's the way it is, or you don't want it, then the SPF trick with its key-value-pair bypasses 2231. Wanting 2231 and at the same time not wanting it is the weird "MUST accept SHOULD NOT use" stuff again - I really hate this. > Please be more specific which risks/vulnerabilities you are > talking about. http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/836088 About 34,000 Google hits for "MIME partial vulnerability". Is US-CERT something we could reference in an IETF RfC, or is that source too obscure ? We could also mention the potential 2231 boundary problems and forget the message/partial stuff, it's old news. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53KekSU087565 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Kek9H087564 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53KekIe087552 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53KeeF1012822; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j53KeeUx012821; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:40:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <200506031553.52127.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603161944.12622A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > Because you again tried to resolve vagueness in 1036 by appealing to the > > B2.11 code, as if it was a model implementation of 1036, which it wasn't. > > No, the code provides insight into what the 1036 text "punctuation" > means. The only way it can provide such insight is if you first assume that it is meant to be an exact implementation of 1036 (or equivalently that 1036 was written as a specification matching the B2.11 code). That assumption is unsubstantiated, and must be considered highly questionable given the numerous differences between what 1036 says and what B2.11 does. The B2.11 code cannot provide *reliable* insight into ambiguities in 1036. > We know that it does NOT mean underscore, and that it does mean colon. We might *speculate* to that effect, but we don't *know* it. The fact is, 1036 doesn't say exactly what "punctuation" means. Period. Moreover, it doesn't really matter. We're trying to write a new document, not to help 1036's authors revise theirs; what they *intended* is simply irrelevant. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Ka5bH087050 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Ka5iW087049 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:36:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Ka37h087041 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeIoh-0003yJ-Hr for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:30:55 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.82 ([62.80.58.82]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:30:55 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.82 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:30:55 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:30:18 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A0BDDA.499@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603151117.12008A-100000@spsystems.net> <200506031553.52127.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.82 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > We know that it does NOT mean underscore, and that it does > mean colon. | Letters, digits, periods and hyphens are considered part of | host names; other punctuation, including blanks, are | considered separators. That's 100% clear, and whether it's wrong is beside the point. If "we" want the underscore for UUCP host names, then it needs a "note" like the existing "note" for the colon. Or it needs s-o-1036 published as RfC, that should simplify some problems of inheritance. I'd just drop underscore in path-identity and be done with it. Allowing it only in the tail-entry is no syntactical problem. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53K8kot085114 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53K8k53085113 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from kosat.consultit.no (kosat.consultit.no [80.203.206.234]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53K8jfP085099 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (182.80-202-209.nextgentel.com [80.202.209.182]) by kosat.consultit.no (Postfix) with SMTP id F3C3D82EA for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:10:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:06:05 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:06:05 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <20050603200555.GA26194@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> [2005-06-03 15:01:37 +0000]: > Yes, that says the right things, but I think the text can be tidied up a > bit. How about: > > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an > earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References > header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup articles > may also use a References header). > 3.2.1 References > > | The References header is used to refer to earlier articles (e.g. > | followups refer to their precursors), in order to facilitate the More confusion. You now say that the references header refers to "earlier" articles, while an important point of using this complicated followup/references definitions is to allow for multi-part FAQs to be posted "at the same time". "earlier" seems to contradict this. I'll try this again: A "followup" is an article that follows up on the contents of another article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References header identifying that precursor. The References header is used to identify the parentage of the article by identifying its precursors. Based on dictionary lookups, I cannot see why multi-part FAQs aren't covered by this. www.wordsmyth.net: Parentage: Definition 1. descent from parents and ancestors; lineage. Definition 2. the condition or relationship of a parent; parenthood. Follow-up: Definition 1. the act or process of following up, esp. with something that may increase the effectiveness of an earlier action. Definition 2. the means, such as a phone call or letter, used to follow up merriam-webster: Follow up: 1 : to follow with something similar, related, or supplementary <following up his convictions with action -- G. P. Merrill> 2 : to maintain contact with (a person) so as to monitor the effects of earlier activities or treatments 3 : to pursue in an effort to take further action <the police follow up leads> Precursor: 1 a : one that precedes and indicates the approach of another b : PREDECESSOR 2 : a substance, cell, or cellular component from which another substance, cell, or cellular component is formed Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Jrwa4083908 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53JrwoZ083907 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Jrw8k083900 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2098229946; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53Jrsad029993(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:53:54 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53JrsSQ029989(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:53:54 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:53:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603151117.12008A-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603151117.12008A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031553.52127.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 15:28, Henry Spencer wrote: > Because you again tried to resolve vagueness in 1036 by appealing to the > B2.11 code, as if it was a model implementation of 1036, which it wasn't. No, the code provides insight into what the 1036 text "punctuation" means. We know that it does NOT mean underscore, and that it does mean colon. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53JoTri083657 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53JoTK3083656 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53JoSAV083637 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j53JoL4w013302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506031240580.4983@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart <sethb@xxxxxxxxx>: >"Thread it" isn't necessarily a display issue. It is only a display issue. Nothing in the news system cares how an article is threaded other than the display agent. >That makes the assumption that "followup" iff "contains References >header". We voted against that assumption. Deal with it. We have no authority to vote out sections of RFC1036, which is the current RFC dealing with news. Currently, the standard says "required/prohibited". There is no "please display this article this way" header; References deals only with expressing followup relationships. Thus, the poster cannot possibly be saying "please display me this way", or even "please thread me as if I were a followup", because there is no header that expresses that sentiment. >But based on both the vote here and reality, the poster is _not_ >calling the article a followup, No vote here can change why a poster called his article a followup (or that he did so), and the current standard says that his article MUST be a followup -- otherwise it is not a valid article, and invalid articles are outside the scope of our standard. Invalid articles are not supposed to be transported, much less processed as if they said "display this article this way". >> All we know is that he DID call it a followup for some reason >> because it contains a header that is allowed only in followups. >We voted otherwise. Link to proof? Link to authority to vote out existing standards? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53JSLPS081363 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53JSL5T081362 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53JSKr1081356 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53JSGF1012115; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j53JSGka012114; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:28:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <200506031504.50459.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603151117.12008A-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > > We used both -- rather cautiously -- as references when we wrote C News. > > And a year ago we discussed what C news (and INN) do and do not > treat as delimiters. > Why are we still flogging this horse? Because you again tried to resolve vagueness in 1036 by appealing to the B2.11 code, as if it was a model implementation of 1036, which it wasn't. The vagueness in 1036 is inherent and unfixable. We need to think about what the best resolution of it is today, rather than trying to deduce what 1036's authors intended nearly 20 years ago. The practices followed by existing implementations are relevant only insofar as they impose backward-compatibility constraints. In that regard, B2.11 can safely be ignored, and even C News is marginal. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53J4uF6078922 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53J4uUw078921 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53J4rck078913 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:04:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A8C29976; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53J4qMX020933(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:52 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53J4p7J020932(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:52 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:50 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603121645.9545G-100000@spsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603121645.9545G-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031504.50459.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 12:34, Henry Spencer wrote: > We used both -- rather cautiously -- as references when we wrote C News. And a year ago we discussed what C news (and INN) do and do not treat as delimiters. Why are we still flogging this horse? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53J2802078714 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53J28a1078713 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53J281K078707 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D191129932; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53J243e020411(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:02:04 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53J24BW020407(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:02:04 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:02:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031502.01345.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 12:25, Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > > I see no error in the relevant sections of RFC 2822. > > > > This is in RFC2822, which I copied... > > The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's > "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's > "Message-ID:" field (if any). > > and one of your criticisms was that "contents of" was nebulous, and > you provided an example. > > Are you saying the phrase "contents of" is not nebulous in RFC2822, but > would be nebulous in USEFOR? Can you explain? It's indeed nebulous, but falls short of an error. It's unfortunate that it lacks clarity, but this WG isn't tasked with rewriting 2822. It should suffice to reference 2822 and hope that the text will be clarified in its successor. I don't see much point in copying the text verbatim into our documents. At most, we might have a note clarifying the matter. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Iw7Ll078413 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Iw7gx078412 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:58:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Iw4go078400 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:58:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeHHO-00048l-Tb for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:52:26 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.82 ([62.80.58.82]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:52:26 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.82 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:52:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:52:10 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 6 Message-ID: <42A0A6DA.6C7C.xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <42A09FCE.1000002@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.82 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > I don't know what you mean by "worse." Take this. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53IME5K075599 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53IME6r075598 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53IMC9A075590 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-72-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.72]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j53IM6gE026052; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A09FCE.1000002@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:22:06 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> In-Reply-To: <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> > The contents of the parent's "Message-ID:"-field will sometimes > contain more than just a <msg-id>, like trailing whitespace, or > a comment, or worse. > The draft states that comments are forbidden in a Message-ID. You can read the draft here: http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-04/Message-ID.htm But since the draft allows CFWS in References, it apparently isn't a concern that comments appear there. (I disagree.) I don't know what you mean by "worse." Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Hi4Pq073064 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Hi4ZH073063 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.26]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Hi36v073056 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:44:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j53Hht9A028145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:44:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <039001c56863$d3334210$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:38:41 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III: > Bruce Lilly: >> I see no error in the relevant sections of RFC 2822. > This is in RFC2822, which I copied... > > The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's > "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the > parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). > > and one of your criticisms was that "contents of" was nebulous, and > you provided an example. > > Are you saying the phrase "contents of" is not nebulous in RFC2822, > but would be nebulous in USEFOR? Can you explain? The contents of the parent's "Message-ID:"-field will sometimes contain more than just a <msg-id>, like trailing whitespace, or a comment, or worse. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53HYpHx072457 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53HYp9K072456 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:34:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53HYnHu072449 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeG0Q-0008Nz-0f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:30:50 +0200 Received: from 62.80.58.82 ([62.80.58.82]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:30:49 +0200 Received: from nobody by 62.80.58.82 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:30:49 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:28:58 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 146 Message-ID: <42A0935A.10CD@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Cc: wayne <wayne@schlitt.net> X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.80.58.82 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote in USEFOR: >> Is anything wrong with copying RfC 3834 opt-parameter-list ? >> I'd be very interested if that's not more state of the art. > That would cope fine with <ext-param>, but it does not help > to show the full syntax of, say, the <post-host-param> You could also use the trick in the most recent SPF drafts - not as good as an RfC, but the ABNF passed Bill's checker: | header = "Received-SPF:" [CFWS] result FWS [comment FWS] | [ key-value-list ] CRLF [...] | key-value-list = key-value-pair *( ";" [CFWS] key-value-pair ) | [";"] | | key-value-pair = key [CFWS] "=" ( dot-atom / quoted-string ) | key = "client-ip" / "envelope-from" / "helo" / | "problem" / "receiver" / "identity" / | mechanism / "x-" name / name [.,.] | dot-atom = <unquoted word as per [RFC2822]> | quoted-string = <quoted string as per [RFC2822]> | comment = <comment string as per [RFC2822]> | CFWS = <comment or folding white space as per [RFC2822]> | FWS = <folding white space as per [RFC2822]> | CRLF = <standard end-of-line token as per [RFC2822]> Note the ... / "x-" name / name Argh, but stay away from "CRLF as in 2822", of course 2234bis. Continued later, I've to Cc: this part to the SPF editor, bye. (it needs to be clear when > <quoted-string>s are needed, and that all sorts of RFC 2231 nonsense > can/may be used). The problem with RFC 3834 is that it defines no > parameters of its own, and thus sets no example of how to do so. > > >> 1. We now have <ext-param>s, which allow for further > >> parameters in extensions. There is also a query: > >> [[Should also allow for x-attributes?]] > > >RfC 2231 <attribute-char> allows "x" and "-" among others. > >Why reserve "x-" if there's no IANA registry ? RfC 3834 > >has not a single additional word about opt-parameter-list. > > RFC 2045 makes a special case for <x-token>s, and we want to buy into > that. But by the time we get to RFC 2231, <token>s have morphed into > <attribute>s. > > >>| allow <parameter>s with x-attributes > > >Is x-attributes a defined term ? I know what you mean, but we > >would get "[x] draft should try to avoid hacker slang" for it. > > Yes, ir should be defined (RFC 2231 should have done it, but didn't). > > >> a) folding SHOULD NOT happen in silly places > > >Let's better forget it. > > Well, it's in the present text of USEFOR. > > > An article format designed to simplify > >"killfiling" can't be a good idea for USEFOR. Maybe put it in > >USEAGE. Some uses of sender= or posting-account= are probably > >against the law in my country, and some legal uses won't allow > >"killfiling". > > Whatever is wrong with designing formats that simplify the things that > people are going to use them for? > > The Injection-Info provides a variety of paramaters, if some of them are > illegal in your country, then you will just have to use one of the others. > > >> b) if several parameters are present, they SHOULD come in a > >> prescribed order > > >See (a), it's not worth it. > > It _could_ be a USEAGE matter, but it wasn't considered so in draft-13. > > >> c) if a <post-account-param> is used, a given sender SHOULD > >> always show up as the same posting-account, at least in > >> the short term. > > >Dito, that's a legal nightmare, let's forget it, or discuss > >it with some legal advisors and privacy officers - IANAL. > > But that one definitely belongs here. It the "posting-account" parameter > runs into legal difficulties, then use a "logging-data" parameter which is > designed to be inscrutable without the cooperation of the ISP. But that is > just its problem. It is well known that spammers and other Bad Guys are > attracted to "uncooperative" ISPs (ones where abuse@ is diverted to > /dev/null, and which never make any attempt to discipline their > customers). The whole purpose of the "posting-account" parameter is to > identify the same source of articles when it turns up again (even if you > don't get to know the guy's real name or address). > > We went through all these arguments when we designed the Injection-Info > header way back (see discussion in USEAGE 4.1.4). There were tensions > between those who wanted to ensure posters' privacy and those who wanted > to ensure that spammers could be traced. You cannot achieve both of those > ideals together. So the standard provides a variety of tools (some more > private than others), and it is left to the marketplace (perhaps with soe > guidance from USEAGE) to decide which of them get used. > > >> we can still discourage its unnecessary use > > >It does this by itself, we don't need to worry about this: > > >| IMPORTANT NOTE: These mechanisms end up being somewhat > >| gibbous when they actually are used. As such, these > >| mechanisms should not be used lightly; they should be > >| reserved for situations where a real need for them exists. > > Yes, but that is similar to my wording. My wording deliberately pinched > some text from RFC 2231 itself, in order to show that even RFC 2231 was > deprecating itself :-) . > > >What we really need are some security considerations about the > >MIME boundary parameter. While we're at it we could also add > >a note about the known message/partial risks, it's essentially > >the same issue - IIRC with a registered "MIME vulnerability" > >number for the latter, we could even add it to the informative > >references, if that's allowed and good style (?) > > Please be more specific which risks/vulnerabilities you are talking about. > > -- > Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ > Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl > Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. > PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53HO6j9071517 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53HO6Mf071516 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53HO59n071509 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD7AA700E for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j53HO4p00299; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506031724.j53HO4p00299@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506030949220.26185@a.shell.peak.org> (message from John Stanley on Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506030949220.26185@a.shell.peak.org> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > Seth Breidbart <sethb@xxxxxxxxx>: >>Exactly as before: thread it as if the article were a followup. >>That's the reason for inserting the References header. > Sorry, but that cannot be the reason. Display of articles is outside > the scope of our standard, and of RFC1036, so "please display it > this way" cannot be the function of any header defined therein. "Thread it" isn't necessarily a display issue. But if you prefer, change my language to "Treat this article as if it were a followup." > The only reason for inserting the References header is to say "this > is a followup to article X". That makes the assumption that "followup" iff "contains References header". We voted against that assumption. Deal with it. > Now, MAYBE the poster is trying to say "I call this a followup > because...", but we cannot divine that internal discussion from the > appearance of the article. But based on both the vote here and reality, the poster is _not_ calling the article a followup, he's just indicating that it would be useful to treat it as one. If that means you can't distinguish between "this article is a followup" and "this article ought to be treated as a followup" then so what? Since you ought to treat them the same anyway, of what use would being able to make that distinction be? > All we know is that he DID call it a followup for some reason > because it contains a header that is allowed only in followups. We voted otherwise. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53H3puI069497 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53H3p0n069496 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:03:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53H3oBb069488 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53H3mF1010941; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j53H3l44010940; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:03:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" In-Reply-To: <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603130330.9545I-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Charles Lindsey wrote: > Yes, that says the right things, but I think the text can be tidied up a > bit. How about: > > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an > earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References > header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup articles > may also use a References header). Looks good to me. Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53H2hv8069421 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53H2hkN069420 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53H2f0P069413 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DeFTm-000385-0r for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:57:06 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-56.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.56]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:57:06 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-56.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:57:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:50:01 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 21 Message-ID: <42A08A39.2FC@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-56.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > Yes, that says the right things +1 > How about: Also fine, maybe better. [3.2.x propossal] >| in order to facilitate the display or retrieval, by reading >| and other agents, of threads of related articles. It's not only for "threads of", it can be anything the poster wants as a "relation" for "display or rertrieval", it can be also a "relation" unknown for most readers (e.g. follwup in a different TLH, or article posted as reply to a mail in a list) Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Gvlka068944 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Gvl7G068943 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GvkjX068934 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j53Gvf4K045223 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506030949220.26185@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart <sethb@xxxxxxxxx>: >Exactly as before: thread it as if the article were a followup. >That's the reason for inserting the References header. Sorry, but that cannot be the reason. Display of articles is outside the scope of our standard, and of RFC1036, so "please display it this way" cannot be the function of any header defined therein. The only reason for inserting the References header is to say "this is a followup to article X". It has no other defined meaning. If the poster includes a References header, which it otherwise prohibited, it can only be to indicate "this is a followup". It cannot be "display it with X". Now, MAYBE the poster is trying to say "I call this a followup because...", but we cannot divine that internal discussion from the appearance of the article. All we know is that he DID call it a followup for some reason because it contains a header that is allowed only in followups. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GgnWk067779 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GgnJ5067778 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Ggm9B067772 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j53Gge4K039058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506030928340.26185@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >I have deliberately not discussed USEPRO. I believe that we can do one >thing at a time. You are wrong. You must consider the effects of USEFOR on USEPRO and vice versa. We must discuss them together, because they are intended to be implemented together. >...people are currently using the References: header in messages that can >only be called "followup" by a rather stretched definition of that term, Here's how far it has to be stretched: add "or as a result of". Not very far, and it is exactly how people are treating it today. It is current practice. Why is documenting current practice suddenly "rather stretched"? >I disagree with your statement about RFC 2822. You are free to disagree, but only one of us can be right. Do you have a section of RFC2822 that says that References is EVER mandatory in a message? I don't think so. I have one that says it is optional in replies, and I have a section of USEFOR that says we defer to RFC2822 for References. >I'll let current practitioners speak for themselves. I'm happy to observe current practice and discuss it. If current practitioners (other than ourselves, who can also be current practitioners) don't want to come here, they don't have to. >The others can speak for themselves, too. Yes, and they are. But RFCs do not have a voice of their own, so someone has to speak up for them. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GYqeG067138 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GYquH067137 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GYqZ7067129 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53GYkF1010602; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j53GYkqB010596; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:34:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <200506031200.30757.blilly@erols.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603121645.9545G-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Bruce Lilly wrote: > Been there, discussed that. 1036 describes "version B2.11 of the News > program". Been *there*, discussed *that*. No, it doesn't. Possible intent notwithstanding, there are many discrepancies between the two, enough that the B2.11 code is not useful as a model implementation of 1036. We used both -- rather cautiously -- as references when we wrote C News. They not infrequently disagree. Note also that 1036 does not claim to "describe" B2.11. Rather, it says it is an update of 850, "reflecting" B2.11 -- that is, that changes have been made to 850 based on things done in B2.11. That doesn't imply that 1036 and B2.11 are even intended to match exactly. >Underscore was not a Path field delimiter as documented by "punctuation" >in RFC 1036. 1036 never says exactly what "punctuation" is supposed to mean for its purposes, although it does say that the characters "considered part of host names" are "letters, digits, periods and hyphens". Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GPlub066226 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GPlDP066225 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GPl98066217 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-72-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.72]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j53GPegt002201 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A08482.5010303@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:25:38 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > I see no error in the relevant sections of RFC 2822. > This is in RFC2822, which I copied... The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). and one of your criticisms was that "contents of" was nebulous, and you provided an example. Are you saying the phrase "contents of" is not nebulous in RFC2822, but would be nebulous in USEFOR? Can you explain? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GJRfA065702 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GJRPc065701 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GJQI1065692 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-72-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.72]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j53GJJgt000247; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A08305.1020407@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:19:17 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org CC: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: You critiqued USEPRO....Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A07B14.7000500@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42A07B14.7000500@mibsoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.133 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > Private email. Ah, I guess not private. No big deal. As you can see I thougth private would avoid extra inconvenience to Bruce and the list when pointing out that some of the harsh criticism Bruce had was actually against text posted from the current drafts. I think it is clear he did not realize it when he wrote. Actually, I think that had an extremely valuable result....a fresh criticism of the wording in the current USEPRO draft. I didn't need to send that publicly, unless other people also didn't realize where the "implementation" text from my posting came from. I guess I assumed that everyone participating here can recognize text when it comes from RFC2822 and our drafts. Wrong assumption. I admit to not knowing the drafts as well as I could, but I try to be familiar with the parts as they are discussed before I comment. I split the documents into sections on mibsoftware.com to facilite that. I have made my opinions on the general state of the drafts known to every chair over the years, and I have started being more public with those comments too. So that part of my intended private email is not a revelation. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GEqan065191 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GEqXB065190 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GEo9J065181 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-20.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.20]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.181) id 42a081f7.1477b.88 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:14:47 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53GCID06318 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:12:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21035 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHIJrA.4AA@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:47:34 GMT Lines: 119 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: > [CFWS issues for parameters] >> I don't want to discuss these here, because they are better >> resolved offline. >Is anything wrong with copying RfC 3834 opt-parameter-list ? >I'd be very interested if that's not more state of the art. That would cope fine with <ext-param>, but it does not help to show the full syntax of, say, the <post-host-param> (it needs to be clear when <quoted-string>s are needed, and that all sorts of RFC 2231 nonsense can/may be used). The problem with RFC 3834 is that it defines no parameters of its own, and thus sets no example of how to do so. >> 1. We now have <ext-param>s, which allow for further >> parameters in extensions. There is also a query: >> [[Should also allow for x-attributes?]] >RfC 2231 <attribute-char> allows "x" and "-" among others. >Why reserve "x-" if there's no IANA registry ? RfC 3834 >has not a single additional word about opt-parameter-list. RFC 2045 makes a special case for <x-token>s, and we want to buy into that. But by the time we get to RFC 2231, <token>s have morphed into <attribute>s. >>| allow <parameter>s with x-attributes >Is x-attributes a defined term ? I know what you mean, but we >would get "[x] draft should try to avoid hacker slang" for it. Yes, ir should be defined (RFC 2231 should have done it, but didn't). >> a) folding SHOULD NOT happen in silly places >Let's better forget it. Well, it's in the present text of USEFOR. > An article format designed to simplify >"killfiling" can't be a good idea for USEFOR. Maybe put it in >USEAGE. Some uses of sender= or posting-account= are probably >against the law in my country, and some legal uses won't allow >"killfiling". Whatever is wrong with designing formats that simplify the things that people are going to use them for? The Injection-Info provides a variety of paramaters, if some of them are illegal in your country, then you will just have to use one of the others. >> b) if several parameters are present, they SHOULD come in a >> prescribed order >See (a), it's not worth it. It _could_ be a USEAGE matter, but it wasn't considered so in draft-13. >> c) if a <post-account-param> is used, a given sender SHOULD >> always show up as the same posting-account, at least in >> the short term. >Dito, that's a legal nightmare, let's forget it, or discuss >it with some legal advisors and privacy officers - IANAL. But that one definitely belongs here. It the "posting-account" parameter runs into legal difficulties, then use a "logging-data" parameter which is designed to be inscrutable without the cooperation of the ISP. But that is just its problem. It is well known that spammers and other Bad Guys are attracted to "uncooperative" ISPs (ones where abuse@ is diverted to /dev/null, and which never make any attempt to discipline their customers). The whole purpose of the "posting-account" parameter is to identify the same source of articles when it turns up again (even if you don't get to know the guy's real name or address). We went through all these arguments when we designed the Injection-Info header way back (see discussion in USEAGE 4.1.4). There were tensions between those who wanted to ensure posters' privacy and those who wanted to ensure that spammers could be traced. You cannot achieve both of those ideals together. So the standard provides a variety of tools (some more private than others), and it is left to the marketplace (perhaps with soe guidance from USEAGE) to decide which of them get used. >> we can still discourage its unnecessary use >It does this by itself, we don't need to worry about this: >| IMPORTANT NOTE: These mechanisms end up being somewhat >| gibbous when they actually are used. As such, these >| mechanisms should not be used lightly; they should be >| reserved for situations where a real need for them exists. Yes, but that is similar to my wording. My wording deliberately pinched some text from RFC 2231 itself, in order to show that even RFC 2231 was deprecating itself :-) . >What we really need are some security considerations about the >MIME boundary parameter. While we're at it we could also add >a note about the known message/partial risks, it's essentially >the same issue - IIRC with a registered "MIME vulnerability" >number for the latter, we could even add it to the informative >references, if that's allowed and good style (?) Please be more specific which risks/vulnerabilities you are talking about. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GEmWC065174 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GEmXW065171 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GElpH065159 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-20.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.20]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.181) id 42a081f4.1477b.86 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:14:45 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53GCKQ06322 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:12:20 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21036 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHIKEp.4Dy@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:01:37 GMT Lines: 45 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >2) All "followups" have a References: header. > There exist articles that have References:, but are not "followups" >1) To section 1.5: >NEW: > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of > an earlier article. (the followup's "precursor" indicated in the > "References" header). > All "followups" have a "References" header. > Note: Other articles may also use the "References" header. Yes, that says the right things, but I think the text can be tidied up a bit. How about: A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an earlier article, its "precursor". Every followup includes a References header identifying that precursor (but note that non-followup articles may also use a References header). And note that either text is consistent with the currently proposed introduction to the References header: 3.2.1 References | The References header is used to refer to earlier articles (e.g. | followups refer to their precursors), in order to facilitate the | display or retrieval, by reading and other agents, of threads of | related articles. It is the same as that specified in Section 3.6.4 | of [RFC2822] with the added restrictions detailed in Section 2.2 and | those listed below: -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GEmJ7065173 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GEmgZ065172 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GElbH065158 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-75-20.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.75.20]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.181) id 42a081f2.1477b.85 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:14:43 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53GCLg06326 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:12:21 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21037 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <IHIKox.4GI@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <053201c567c0$12ffc160$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:07:45 GMT Lines: 36 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <053201c567c0$12ffc160$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> writes: >So now I have to share this story on something that happened about an >hour ago: >So what he did was follow-up to an earlier posting and replacing the >body as if he was reacting on a posting that he still had to received >from his ISP's newsserver. He wrote that he did that to be closer >involved in the discussions. He obviously didn't manually update the >"References" header, so his reactions popped-up in all the wrong places >on people's screens. >Luckily the discussions were in the nl-hierarchy, and he could be >persuaded to start using the good & free news://fb1.euro.net Which is a perfect example of how Usenet governs itself. If someone steps out of line, there is always someone in each newsgroup to bring him back into the fold. But sadly, that mechanism does not work for email. Which is why innovations spread rather rapidly through Usenet (though not necessarily all useful ones, which is why we have this WG to tidy up the mess). Whereas in Email the standards people can beaver away for years and still people do not adopt the new things :-( . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GD8PV064986 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53GD8lj064985 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53GCwWA064969 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2269A29940; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53GCuOR016696(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:12:56 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53GCtLs016692(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:12:55 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:12:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031212.52682.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 09:40, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > >I think you mean authentication identity; authorization identity is the > >thing that we had before. The authentication identity may, in fact, may > >often look like a <mailbox> but not actually be one in any traditional > >sense. > > Whichever. I find the distinction made by the SASL standards far from > clear. See FYI 36. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G9iEj064745 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53G9iJ6064744 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns5.townisp.com (ns5a.townisp.com [216.195.0.140]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G9hgu064738 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns5.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1733929981; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53G9ejV016080(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:09:40 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53G9dpk016076(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:09:39 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:09:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031209.37192.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 11:40, Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > > If that's supposed to be a shining example of technical writing, we're in > > deep trouble: > > o terminology is inconsistent. Some of the terminology is OK; other uses > > are inconsistent with definitions in normative references (esp. RFC 2822) > > and in standard glossaries such as FYI 18. > > Yes we are in deep trouble, especially since I copied most of what you objected > to verbatim from RFC2822. > > Take a look... > > http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc2822/Identification_fields.htm I see: "Message-ID:" field "In-Reply-To:" and "References:" fields "Message-ID:" field "References:" and "In-Reply-To:" field "Message-ID:" field header fields trace fields resent fields etc., and the definition (consistent with FYI 18): A message consists of header fields (collectively called "the header of the message") followed, optionally, by a body. The header is a sequence of lines of characters with special syntax as defined in this standard. The body is simply a sequence of characters that follows the header and is separated from the header by an empty line (i.e., a line with nothing preceding the CRLF). > If we can't be consistent with RFC2822, then all is lost indeed. Agreed. > Thanks for the criticism, shall I make an attempt to improve it, Your choice. > and should > I submit some errata for RFC2822 based on your comments? I see no error in the relevant sections of RFC 2822. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G5McP064376 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53G5MVT064375 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G5L2V064369 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C1013A778 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j53G5Lv15293; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506031605.j53G5Lv15293@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <IHIExv.3Gq@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <IHGGEJ.Jzn@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506021753.j52HrBr29179@panix5.panix.com> <IHIExv.3Gq@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > In <200506021753.j52HrBr29179@panix5.panix.com> Seth Breidbart > <sethb@panix.com> writes: > Sure. What I meant was that there might have been a long thread with "Old > Subject" which morphed into "New Subject". And, after a couple of "News > Subject" articles somebody might decide it wasn't anything to do with "Old > Subject" anymore and so, when generating the next followup, he might prune > all the "Old Subject" articles out of the References, just leaving the two > "New Subject" articles. > > Technically in breach of the draft, but quite sensible nevertheless. Of course, it would have no effect (on any newsreader I know), unless the parent and grandparent articles hadn't arrived so the newsreader didn't know they were part of the old thread. I thought you meant removing the entire References header, which I don't think is sensible in an article with (e.g.) 3 levels of quoting. >>But then, we can't control user behavior anyway. So this is all moot. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G0iug063991 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53G0ieV063990 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53G0gpw063983 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDE829975; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53G0cJo014408(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:00:38 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53G0aXI014404(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:00:37 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:00:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIFM9.3J3@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHIFM9.3J3@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031200.30757.blilly@erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id j53G0hpw063985 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 09:18, Charles Lindsey wrote: > > In <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: > > Note, in particular, that RFC 1036 treats "_" as a delim- > > iter, but in fact it is known to appear in relayer names > > occasionally. > > >So "_" is apparently not exactly compatible with RfC 1036. > > It is impossible to tell from RFC 1036 exactly what is a delimiter and > what is not. Been there, discussed that. 1036 describes "version B2.11 of the News program". We know precisely which characters were delimiters, and that information has been presented on this WG's mailing list. See http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0566.html and http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jul/0265.html Underscore was not a Path field delimiter as documented by "punctuation" in RFC 1036. That term means the set of characters: #define NETCHRS "!:@^%,"/* Punct. chars used for various networks */ Note that that set does include the colon character. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FjaKF062537 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53FjacP062536 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FjZIK062528 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-72-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.72]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j53FjPBR005805 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A07B14.7000500@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:45:24 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: You critiqued USEPRO....Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.134 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Private email. Did you realize that most of your criticism actually applied to text that appears in the current USEPRO-03? It isn't mine. http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Followup_Agent.htm I agree with the criticisms you have. The trouble is that the ENTIRE USEPRO is like that. If people actually read the drafts, as you were just prompted to, there would be as much criticism for every section. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Febiv062080 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53Febsi062079 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lentil.epix.net (lentil.epix.net [199.224.64.67]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Fea7C062072 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-72-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.72]) by lentil.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j53FeHBR004035 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42A079E1.8070507@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:40:17 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.135 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: > If that's supposed to be a shining example of technical writing, we're in > deep trouble: > o terminology is inconsistent. Some of the terminology is OK; other uses > are inconsistent with definitions in normative references (esp. RFC 2822) > and in standard glossaries such as FYI 18. Yes we are in deep trouble, especially since I copied most of what you objected to verbatim from RFC2822. Take a look... http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc2822/Identification_fields.htm If we can't be consistent with RFC2822, then all is lost indeed. I do take the blame/responsibility for the wording of the "previously posted context" definition. The trimming algorithm came from the current USEPRO draft, but I reworded it. Thanks for the criticism, shall I make an attempt to improve it, and should I submit some errata for RFC2822 based on your comments? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FVaTU060855 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53FVaYS060853 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns2.townisp.com (ns2a.townisp.com [216.195.0.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FVaph060845 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns2.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD4029930; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53FVWEK009048(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:31:33 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53FVUhQ009040(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:31:30 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:31:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031131.17073.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 08:17, Charles Lindsey wrote: > Actually, that is not quite right, because there is also an exception for > a part of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2. > > You MUST accept "UT" and "GMT". RFC 2822 already says that. No "exception" here. > You SHOULD NOT generate "UT" and "GMT". There has never been any convincing argument that there should be a deviation from RFC 2822 (and RFC 1123) here. Ancient implementations might well be non-conforming to what we specify for requirements on new generation, and no argument has been presented as to why that should differ from 2822 (viz. use numeric offsets only for generation). I.e., while this does represent an "exception", there has been no justification for such. > You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. Already covered by 2822. > You MAY accept "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone> (because of > that "MAY" in 2.1). 2822 says (in effect) MUST accept. Again, no justification for a difference, particularly as practice is and existing documents specify acceptance. Especially, there is no justification for simultaneously being more restrictive (MUST accept -> MAY accept) for some alphabetic zones and less restrictive (MUST NOT generate -> SHOULD NOT generate) for one particular zone (purely coincidental that that happens to be a Document Editor's zone, and that said Editor's mail to this mailing list remains non-compliant with 2822 while the vast majority of messages are compliant... :-). > So that paragraph in 2.1 could more helpfully say: > > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. The obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822] is > excluded (except for some special use of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2 > below [and any other exceptions we choose to make ....]); Netnews agents > MAY accept that obsolete syntax but MUST NOT generate productions of it. Making it longer and more convoluted isn't "helpful". Eliding it in favor of "[RFC2822]" would be helpful. A note explaining that legacy UAs might be non-compliant with *this* specification could be argued as either being a clarification or as being redundant. My opinion is the latter; at most a statement to the effect that non-conforming implementations are non-conforming should be relegated to an Appendix. "At most". > What I would like to see is <obs-phrase> (possibly renamed as > <extended-phrase>) treated as a special case with similar status to "UT" > and "GMT". As noted above, there seems to be no justification for the deviations; it appears to be a personal prejudice. > I.e. MUST accept it, but SHOULD/MUST/whatever NOT generate it. > That aligns us with the way RFC 2822 is leading us. I would prefer SHOULD > NOT to MUST NOT generate, but that is a secondary issue. SHOULD NOT implies that generation is officially allowed, and would adversely affect backward compatibility unless you can conclusively show that no deployed parsers will experience difficulties (note that the 2822 change was specifically to address such observed difficulties). Lacking such a detailed analysis and in the absence of a convincing argument in favor of a deviation, again "[RFC2822]" should suffice. > >My instinct is "don't mess with other standards" and leave it as it is. Is > >someone arguing strongly that we should change it? > > I am trying not to "mess". Just to adopt a piece if RFC 2822 that we have > not adopted so far. Then what precisely are the justifications for the deviations (BCP 14 keyword changes in date-time related issues and in your suggested MUST NOT -> SHOULD NOT for obs-phrase)? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FBoNf058011 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53FBolP058010 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53FBnwY058003 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j53FBmvs002521 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:11:48 -0700 Received: (qmail 22775 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2005 15:11:48 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <IHIFo2.3Ks@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:19:14 GMT") References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> <429EFA71.3956@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHIFo2.3Ks@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:11:48 -0700 Message-ID: <87acm71nm3.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >> Sorry, now that Bruce is back I could stop this, but... >> >>> | 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an >>> | A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine >> >> ...we need "or AAAA", don't we ? > Eh? What is "AAAA"? The IPv6 equivalent of an A record. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53F8jMF057779 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53F8jWR057778 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53F8ixO057772 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j53F8hhg014093 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:08:43 -0700 Received: (qmail 22610 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2005 15:08:43 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues In-Reply-To: <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:40:19 GMT") References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:08:43 -0700 Message-ID: <87hdgf1nr8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> I think you mean authentication identity; authorization identity is the >> thing that we had before. The authentication identity may, in fact, >> may often look like a <mailbox> but not actually be one in any >> traditional sense. > Whichever. I find the distinction made by the SASL standards far from > clear. Is a man allowed to choose any string he likes as his > "authorization identity", or does it have to be something previously > agreed with the server? It's fairly clear if you understand the distinction between authentication and authorization. Authentication says who you are. Authorization says what you're allowed to do. The authorization identity is the identity you're assuming on the server and with which ACLs are associated -- it may be, for instance, a group account shared by several people, or a role in which you're acting. The authentication identity is who you actually are, namely some identified user who has access to that role. Depending on the authentication mechanism, the two identities may live in different namespaces. So, for instance, if I authenticate to my local news server with the KERBEROS_V4 SASL mechanism, my authorization identity (the user string in readers.conf that I'm assigned) is "rra@stanford.edu", but my authentication identity is "rra@IR.STANFORD.EDU", which is a principal in our Kerberos v4 realm. Your authorization identity is generally going to be the thing that goes into sender and the like. Authentication identity is an additional trace showing who was actually using a shared account or role that in many cases will just be identical to the authorization identity. This is fairly standard stuff in the security community, but Usenet protocols have not, up until recently, really dealt with security in a fashion consistent with the rest of the world. > OK, just call it "auth": > Injection-Info: dodgy.net; posting-host=dialup-123.dodgy.net; > auth="some-string" It's generally wise to never use the term "auth" in a security context because it's ambiguous on whether you're talking about the authentication identity or the authorization identity. You need at least "authn" or "authz", and it's probably better to just spell it out. > Or else use it in a "posting-account" parameter. That would be the authorization identity, not the authentication identity. > I just want to make sure that such authentication-identities can be > used, and that there exists a parameter clearly suitable for the > purpose. Yup. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53F4Nke057490 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:04:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53F4NDY057489 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from spsystems.net (spsystems.net [216.126.83.115]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53F4MMW057482 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henry@spsystems.net) Received: from spsystems.net (henry@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53F4JF1009855; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from henry@localhost) by spsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j53F4Jxb009854; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer <henry@spsystems.net> To: Usefor Mailing List <ietf-usefor@imc.org> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <IHIFo2.3Ks@clerew.man.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050603110301.9545B-100000@spsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >>| 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an > >>| A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine > >...we need "or AAAA", don't we ? > > Eh? What is "AAAA"? An AAAA record is the IPv6 equivalent of an A record. IPv6 addresses are four times as long as IPv4 addresses, so the name seemed obvious... :-) Henry Spencer henry@spsystems.net Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53EupTo056855 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53EupaW056854 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns3.townisp.com (ns3a.townisp.com [216.195.0.136]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53Eupjd056848 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns3.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6534B2996F; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53EujB6002458(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.24 202005/06/02 17:07:02) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:56:45 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j53Euiae002454(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:56:44 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:56:30 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506031056.32692.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Fri June 3 2005 02:50, Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > > I have deliberately not discussed USEPRO. I believe that we can do one > > thing at a time. > > You cannot change a definition in USEFOR and ignore that it requires > a change in USEPRO. "one thing at a time" != "ignore". > > I believe the other participants claim that this is a hole that is > > currently open, and should not be closed - people are currently using > > the References: header in messages that can only be called "followup" by > > a rather stretched definition of that term, and should not be prevented > > from doing so. This was discussed at length when the change was first made without WG consensus or prior discussion; it was going on a year ago: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2004/Jun/0130.html That the same argument over the same unrequested change which is inconsistent with RFCs 850 and 1036 is still going on today is an indication that the WG is dysfunctional. The simple fact is that RFCs 850, 1036 and drafts prior to that change used "followup" as shorthand for "an article containing a References field". And as noted long ago in the ensuing discussion, that shorthand is objective; it does not require guesses regarding the intent of a human user, it does not require knowing how the article was prepared or submitted, and it does not require examination of large numbers of articles -- it concisely describes a fact about a particular article which can be objectively assessed by examining that article in isolation. > So, instead of making an attempt at specifying the conditions that > it is acceptable, we have to allow it without limitation? > > That's not current practice. It is obvious that more than limited > use outside of followups would significantly degrade existing practice, > and that means it is outside the charter. The current (RFC 1036) definition of "followup" includes current -- indeed long-standing -- practices such as multi-part FAQs and other multi-part articles. > This isn't a hard concept for anyone familiar with writing software > specifications that separate requirements, design, and implementation. > > Here is a specification of "semantics" (my proposed References definition > for USEFOR, with some RFC2822 text, and a correct trimming algorithm, > unlike the ambiguity currently in USEPRO.) > > A References header indicates the previously posted context in which > the article was created. > > The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's > "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's > "Message-ID:" field. If that's supposed to be a shining example of technical writing, we're in deep trouble: o terminology is inconsistent. Some of the terminology is OK; other uses are inconsistent with definitions in normative references (esp. RFC 2822) and in standard glossaries such as FYI 18. o "previously posted context" is just plain wrong; it does not account for multi-part FAQs which may be prepared together (including References fields) and posted (nearly) simultaneously. Likewise for other fragmented messages. o "the contents of" is at best nebulous; at worst can lead to interoperability issues: References: <foo@bar.example.com> Message-ID: <baz@qzz.example.edu> is "the contents of" a References field followed by "the contents of" a Message-ID field. We have suitable terminology, viz. "field body", and more precisely "msg-ids". > To prevent excessively long lines, message > identifiers from the parent's References field can be omitted, provided > that the first and last one or more in that field are retained. o "excessively long lines" is a non-issue due to the ability to fold physical lines wherever linear whitespace is allowed, as has been the case with RFC 822 message format and its predecessors even before that format was adopted by RFC 850. o there is of course no limit to the length of a logical (i.e. logically unfolded) field. Never has been. > Here is a specification of "implementation" (text from USEPRO-03) > > If the precursor did not have a References header (F-3.2.1), the o where is your definition of "precursor", precisely how does it differ from your use above of "parent", and does it account for use with multi- part FAQs and fragmented message parts (RFC 2046 section 5.2.2.2)? > content of the followup's References header MUST be inherited from o why "MUST" -- what damage or interoperability problems (see BCP 14) are involved? (N.B. "some user doesn't like it" isn't an interoperability issue in the same sense as "limiting retransmissions") In particular, if some article has a clearly broken field where either the first or last identifier is malformed, why "MUST" that error be propagated? o see above re. "content of" o where is your definition of "inherited"? What precisely are the rules for ``inheritance'' -- may comments be elided? Physical lines refolded? Etc. > that of the Message-ID header of the precursor. A followup to an > article which already had a References header MUST have a > References header comprising the precursor's References header o you are presumably trying to define "followup" but have not yet done so. The current definition means "article with a References field", so the text above is at least partially redundant (of course a followup must (N.B. lower case, indicating a logical relationship per section 2.14 of ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc-editor/instructions2authors.txt) have a References field). > (subject to trimming as described below) followed by CFWS and the > Message-ID header content of the precursor. o see above re "content of" > If the resulting References header is excessively long, it MAY be o try to define "excessively long". Then try to achieve consensus for your definition. This WG long ago abandoned that exercise in futility. > trimmed, but the first and the last two message identifiers MUST > NOT be removed. o see above re. BCP 14 and use of imperatives. > By specifying semantics properly, it is clear how to implement > a followup agent, a reading agent, and how to post multi-parts > and FAQs using the References header. The text you have supplied is certainly not clear. It doesn't explicitly address multi-part articles (FAQs or otherwise) directly, and the "previously posted" part implies that it may not be used for some types of multi-part articles. It is hopelessly vague about "excessively long" and "content of" and does not address reading agents at all. > Semantics based is clearer, complete, In which alternate reality is that either clear or complete, much less both? [...] > there must be some section added for how the references get constructed > in a non-followup. By definition, a followup contains a References field and an article with no References field is not a followup. "how the references get constructed in a non-followup" is a non sequitur. Unless of course you are trying to redefine "followup" to mean something other than what it has meant since RFC 850, in which case there are many problems. If it hurts, don't do it. Complete text regarding References can be a short as: Refer to section 3.6.4 of [RFC2822] and section 5.2.2.2 of [RFC2046]. > And then there must be a section about how to > display them. Why "must be"? We (the IETF) do not usually specify display aspects of implementation (when we specify implementation detail at all, as opposed to specifying format and function); exceptions where display is specified are typically limited to internationalization and/or localization issues which do not apply to the References field or to display ordering of articles or to indications of relationships. > I think the current drafts are all terribly written because of this. > They are too long. They are easy to use for one purpose, but not > another. You may be right regarding criticism of current drafts, but frankly your suggested text (which past history shows would either be ignored or twisted beyond recognition anyway) hardly seems clear or concise, nor is delving into implementation choices that do not affect interoperability (as distinct from product features) appropriate for Standards Track documents. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4gvu052911 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4g1v052910 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4fR0052896 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06378.127f6.415 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:40 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E37Y04978 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:07 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21021 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <IHICsv.3D9@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:17:19 GMT Lines: 64 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >I have filed ticket #1022 to cover this issue. >At the moment, section 2.1 of USEFOR-04 says: > News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of > [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax > specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate > productions of such syntax. Actually, that is not quite right, because there is also an exception for a part of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2. You MUST accept "UT" and "GMT". You SHOULD NOT generate "UT" and "GMT". You MUST NOT generate "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone>. You MAY accept "EST" or any of the other things in <obs-zone> (because of that "MAY" in 2.1). So that paragraph in 2.1 could more helpfully say: News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. The obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822] is excluded (except for some special use of <obs-zone> in section 3.1.2 below [and any other exceptions we choose to make ....]); Netnews agents MAY accept that obsolete syntax but MUST NOT generate productions of it. >I have failed to find a consistent message that someone is arguing that we >should change this. I think Charles is arguing for a change, but I'm not >sure - either whether he really wants to change it, or what particular >change he'd propose. What I would like to see is <obs-phrase> (possibly renamed as <extended-phrase>) treated as a special case with similar status to "UT" and "GMT". I.e. MUST accept it, but SHOULD/MUST/whatever NOT generate it. That aligns us with the way RFC 2822 is leading us. I would prefer SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT generate, but that is a secondary issue. Note that this exception was already included, years ago, in our 'article' series of drafts, so I cannot understand why it was not automatically carried forward into USEFOR. 2.1 would be the place to say it (see the "....." carefully left in my syggested text), and there should be a pointer to that paragraph in RFC 2822 to explain the purpose of the exception. >My instinct is "don't mess with other standards" and leave it as it is. Is >someone arguing strongly that we should change it? I am trying not to "mess". Just to adopt a piece if RFC 2822 that we have not adopted so far. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4f0I052903 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4fdb052902 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4edX052884 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06377.127f6.414 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:39 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E3HB05031 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:17 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21027 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHIGn7.3qK@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:40:19 GMT Lines: 56 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: >> 3. There is now a draft (with Ken's name on it) for SASL authentication >> within NNTP. That may give rise AIUI to an "authorization identity" >> which may or may not be in the form of a <mailbox>. >I think you mean authentication identity; authorization identity is the >thing that we had before. The authentication identity may, in fact, may >often look like a <mailbox> but not actually be one in any traditional >sense. Whichever. I find the distinction made by the SASL standards far from clear. Is a man allowed to choose any string he likes as his "authorization identity", or does it have to be something previously agreed with the server? >> An injecting agent might then decide to use this identity in the >> Injection-Info header. Question: do we need a seperate "SASL-identity" >> parameter for this, or can we just use the "sender" parameter and, if >> so, should its syntax be extended to suit? >If anyone expects sender to be an actual mailbox, using it for the >authentication identity is a bad idea, since the authentication identity >may be indistinguishable from a mailbox but not be usable for the same >purpose. Yes, my feeling was that the <sender-param> was not the right place for this. >SASL-identity is a bad choice since it unnecessarily restricts what the >field may be used for. I'd rather use a more generic name. The field >should be described as an opaque token that may only have meaning for the >originating site. OK, just call it "auth": Injection-Info: dodgy.net; posting-host=dialup-123.dodgy.net; auth="some-string" Or else use it in a "posting-account" parameter. I just want to make sure that such authentication-identities can be used, and that there exists a parameter clearly suitable for the purpose. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4euI052892 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4egA052891 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4d5J052874 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06376.127f6.413 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:38 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E39F04992 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:09 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21023 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHIFM9.3J3@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:18:09 GMT Lines: 52 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> This is, I hope, the final form of the Path header. >Thanks, I found no problems, maybe two and a half nits: >>| 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an >>| A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine >RfC 1034 (3.6) offers s/machine/host/ if it has an A record. >I stumbled over it while checking that we get no "_" here. OK, I changed that. >>| this SHOULD then be followed by CRLF and WSP if it would >>| otherwise result in a line longer than 79 characters. >See below. >I tried to check the magic number 79 in s-o-1036, found nothing, >but stumbled over this part: > Note, in particular, that RFC 1036 treats "_" as a delim- > iter, but in fact it is known to appear in relayer names > occasionally. >So "_" is apparently not exactly compatible with RfC 1036. It is impossible to tell from RFC 1036 exactly what is a delimiter and what is not. >If the 79 is an almost arbitrary magic number I'd prefer one >of the known magic numbers (78 in 2822, or 76 in 2047), too >many magic numbers are confusing. OK, I have changed it into "... result in a line of excessive length." (and the same under Relaying Agents). Anybody who wants to know what "excessive" means can go look in USEAGE. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4dja052881 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4d9B052880 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4cI3052858 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06375.127f6.412 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:37 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E38q04986 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:08 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21022 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <IHIExv.3Gq@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <IHGGEJ.Jzn@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506021753.j52HrBr29179@panix5.panix.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:03:31 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <200506021753.j52HrBr29179@panix5.panix.com> Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> writes: >If the connection between his article and its predecessor were as >tenuous as "That reminds me of an interesting story . . ." that would >be fine. Otherwise, he's breaking the connection between his article >and its parent, which is likely not such a good idea. Sure. What I meant was that there might have been a long thread with "Old Subject" which morphed into "New Subject". And, after a couple of "News Subject" articles somebody might decide it wasn't anything to do with "Old Subject" anymore and so, when generating the next followup, he might prune all the "Old Subject" articles out of the References, just leaving the two "New Subject" articles. Technically in breach of the draft, but quite sensible nevertheless. >But then, we can't control user behavior anyway. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4cXg052861 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4cV8052859 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4ajI052840 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06373.127f6.40f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:35 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E3A104996 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:10 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21024 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHIFo2.3Ks@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> <429EFA71.3956@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:19:14 GMT Lines: 21 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429EFA71.3956@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Sorry, now that Bruce is back I could stop this, but... > >>| 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an >>| A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine > >...we need "or AAAA", don't we ? Eh? What is "AAAA"? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4ckq052862 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4c10052860 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4aXp052841 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06373.127f6.410 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:35 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E3E105015 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21026 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: IMAP definitions on threading Message-ID: <IHIG64.3oL@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021621310.853@a.shell.peak.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:30:04 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021621310.853@a.shell.peak.org> John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes: >Perhaps the problem is that you think of threads as "lumps of articles" >and not the more realistic "group of articles with a defined hierarchical >relationship"? And that lumping articles together by similar subject is >"close enough", when you don't care what the hierarchical relationship is? >I think current usage of thread is certainly not just "lump", but how >articles are "strung together" -- and that's why "thread" is used instead >of "lump". But even for the "lump", the Subject header just doesn't >contain the necessary information, so even "lumping" by Subject isn't >really possible. I move that all occurrences of the word "threading" in our drafts be replaced with the word "lumping". :-) -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4cdn052871 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j53E4cMO052870 for ietf-usefor-skb; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j53E4bf2052845 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-72-10.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.72.10]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 42a06374.127f6.411 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:04:36 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j53E3Ce05000 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:03:12 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21025 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHIG31.3Mr@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <2916D97073D397081972AC9D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:28:13 GMT Lines: 31 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <2916D97073D397081972AC9D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >checking..... is the !! stuff a feature that has seen production use >somewhere, or is it a new feature that we are adding? It is a new feature, but carefully crafted so that it causes no harm on the existing network. >since it could concievably be constructed as having to do with security, >it's a potential sticky point with the security ADs. It is indeed connected with security. The Bad Guys were in the habit of preloading their Path headers with a long string culled from some other article, so as to make it appear that its point of origin was far removed from themselves. The change will make it much easier to spot such malpractice and to determine where it originated. But of course the benefit will only appear when the majority of news-servers routinely do it, hence various "MUST"s carefully placed in USEPRO to encourage them to do so. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j536pBde008803 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j536pB0c008802 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j536pAXN008788 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mibsoft@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-21-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.21]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j536ougt002143 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 02:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429FFDC8.4050700@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 02:50:48 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.135 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I have deliberately not discussed USEPRO. I believe that we can do one > thing at a time. You cannot change a definition in USEFOR and ignore that it requires a change in USEPRO. Fragility due to dependency chains is a well-studied effect. These are companion documents split only because they were too verbose. I do not believe they can be edited, issued, or discussed independently. I do not think it is going to be a "win" to push out USEFOR, and then see how in the world we can write a USEPRO that requires no changes to USEFOR. I don't think it is efficient for the group to consider this problem once now for USEFOR and then once again later for USEPRO. > At the moment, USEFOR contains very little information about how to > interpret ANY header. Are you suggesting to change this? I wrote "how to interpret," but I did not mean "how to display." USEFOR is supposed to be a syntax and semantics document. More below.... > > I believe the other participants claim that this is a hole that is > currently open, and should not be closed - people are currently using > the References: header in messages that can only be called "followup" by > a rather stretched definition of that term, and should not be prevented > from doing so. So, instead of making an attempt at specifying the conditions that it is acceptable, we have to allow it without limitation? That's not current practice. It is obvious that more than limited use outside of followups would significantly degrade existing practice, and that means it is outside the charter. One of us has a very wrong idea about how useful threading (using References) is. > > But changing USEFOR to contain this level of information would change > the split between USEFOR and USEPRO, and I don't see a good reason for > that. I think that's because you confuse semantics and implementation. This isn't a hard concept for anyone familiar with writing software specifications that separate requirements, design, and implementation. Here is a specification of "semantics" (my proposed References definition for USEFOR, with some RFC2822 text, and a correct trimming algorithm, unlike the ambiguity currently in USEPRO.) A References header indicates the previously posted context in which the article was created. The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's "Message-ID:" field. To prevent excessively long lines, message identifiers from the parent's References field can be omitted, provided that the first and last one or more in that field are retained. Here is a specification of "implementation" (text from USEPRO-03) If the precursor did not have a References header (F-3.2.1), the content of the followup's References header MUST be inherited from that of the Message-ID header of the precursor. A followup to an article which already had a References header MUST have a References header comprising the precursor's References header (subject to trimming as described below) followed by CFWS and the Message-ID header content of the precursor. If the resulting References header is excessively long, it MAY be trimmed, but the first and the last two message identifiers MUST NOT be removed. By specifying semantics properly, it is clear how to implement a followup agent, a reading agent, and how to post multi-parts and FAQs using the References header. Semantics based is clearer, complete, and shorter already, but the USEPRO text I showed here is not complete. Since that is the section on Followup Agent, there must be some section added for how the references get constructed in a non-followup. And then there must be a section about how to display them. What advantage is there to that? I think the current drafts are all terribly written because of this. They are too long. They are easy to use for one purpose, but not another. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5360hML089625 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j5360h6X089624 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5360h4V089613 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j5360g74012506 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:00:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 1093 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2005 06:00:42 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" In-Reply-To: <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> (Forrest J. Cavalier, III's message of "Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:45:47 -0400") References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:00:42 -0700 Message-ID: <873bs0m12t.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Forrest J Cavalier <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> writes: > 2. The References header in usefor-usepro-03 is mentioned in only these > sections: > http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Transitional_Arrangements.htm > http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Followup_Agent.htm > http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Reading_Agent.htm > http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Relaying_Agent.htm > Note that none of those contain language to allow any articles except > followups to have the header. The proposed text will standardize that > articles which are not followups can have the header, but nothing in the > proposed text or usefor or usepro limits those articles, nor indicates > how they should be treated. I think I'm with Harald on this -- while I agree that USEPRO should say something about how References should be used in that context, USEFOR shouldn't, and it's USEFOR that we're trying to finish. Now, it's a separate (and good) question as to whether publishing USEFOR without USEPRO should even be considered, given the clarifications like this that USEPRO would carry, but considering USEFOR in isolation, with its strictly limited scope, I don't think we should say anything more than what Harald proposed about References. Well, maybe a note saying that all References should be treated the same regardless of their origins, to cover the last part of your paragraph above, but I'd think that would be fairly obvious. > BTW, CFWS in References is a silly unnecessary complication. I agree, but not diverging from mail is even more important to me than having to deal with that. > So, why are comments going to be allowed in the References header? Because mail allows them. At least that's what I recall. I think mail was wrong to ever allow them in the first place, but it's several decades too late to make that argument, alas. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535k7aN083882 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j535k7W0083881 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:46:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from soy.epix.net (soy.epix.net [199.224.64.64]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535k6UO083858 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mibsoft@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-21-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.21]) by soy.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j535jtgE019662 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429FEE8B.8050305@mibsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:45:47 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <mibsoft@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.154 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Seth Breidbart wrote: > That's the existing practice. I agree, but that's exactly my point.... I get the feeling that people have not read the drafts.... The drafts contain no wording that standardizes the existing practice that Seth described. And accepting the proposed change with no other changes is totally unacceptable. For those who haven't read the draft, I'll spell it out.... 1. The References header in usefor-usefor-04 is mentioned in only these sections: http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-04/Definitions.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-04/References.htm (which defers to RFC 2822 http://mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/rfc2822/Identification_fields.htm ) http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-04/Message-ID.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usefor-04/Obsolete_Headers.htm 2. The References header in usefor-usepro-03 is mentioned in only these sections: http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Transitional_Arrangements.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Followup_Agent.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Reading_Agent.htm http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/usefor/usefor-usepro-03/Duties_of_a_Relaying_Agent.htm Note that none of those contain language to allow any articles except followups to have the header. The proposed text will standardize that articles which are not followups can have the header, but nothing in the proposed text or usefor or usepro limits those articles, nor indicates how they should be treated. BTW, CFWS in References is a silly unnecessary complication. (CFWS in any structured header is a bad idea,IMNSHO. - I implement article processing software.) usepro Transitional Arrangements even admits comments in References will break existing software. So, why are comments going to be allowed in the References header? Is the idea to make References irrelevant and unreliable, and then we don't care that it cannot be parsed by legacy software? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535eI8S079841 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j535eIjI079840 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535eHFg079819 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A3561AFF; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31779-06; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:40:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3702461AFB; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:40:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:40:13 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <0BE88793A7BB06D24E71A84D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021635560.853@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021635560.853@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 02, 2005 16:42:21 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > > > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> I am pretty sure that John Stanley disagrees with this. > > RFC2822 disagrees with this. I disagree with your statement about RFC 2822. I'll let current practitioners speak for themselves. > It would be nice if you would let me speak for myself, and when you list > what disagrees with what, you don't pretend that I'm standing alone. The others can speak for themselves, too. You were the loudest voice, so I thought it was polite to say that I had noticed. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535L8wV069567 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j535L8at069566 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j535L7GJ069546 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A7861AFF; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:21:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31773-03; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8705861AFB; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:21:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:21:01 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <C96F639C660756F4165FC6C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 02, 2005 23:37:53 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > or >> who think that the group has or can reach a consensus that is best >> represented by a different formulation, please speak up. > > John and I raised objections which received no adequate response already. > Will doing it again have any different result? > > My primary objection at this time is that your proposed text change is > incomplete, because other parts of USEFOR and USEPRO must be changed I have deliberately not discussed USEPRO. I believe that we can do one thing at a time. > - to provide guidance on how to interpret a references header in a > received article, At the moment, USEFOR contains very little information about how to interpret ANY header. Are you suggesting to change this? > - to limit conformant applications to insert References headers only > when appropriate. I believe the draft documents lack text > allowing or restricting References in Usefor except for followups. > That being the case, your change will open up a huge hole unless > it gets plugged other ways. I believe the other participants claim that this is a hole that is currently open, and should not be closed - people are currently using the References: header in messages that can only be called "followup" by a rather stretched definition of that term, and should not be prevented from doing so. > If you show us what you intend for those changes, I might be able > to respond. As it is, your statement "Note: Other articles may also > use the "References" header." will ensure that "threading on References" > will be as unreliable as "threading on Subject." This direction is > contrary > to the entire point of a "draft standard," which is to define formats > and protocols so that you can implement RELIABLE BEHAVIOR. My personal preference is to have USEPRO (probably) say that it's reasonable for newsreaders that see a References: header to make it easy for people to find the article referred to by the References: header when they are looking at the article containing it, and to find articles with a References: header referring to the article they are looking at, and say something like "One such mechanism is commonly called "threading"". (Customarily, IETF standards do NOT specify user interfaces) I think this description should talk only about how to treat a message with a References header, and not attempt to guess whether or not the message is a "followup". But changing USEFOR to contain this level of information would change the split between USEFOR and USEPRO, and I don't see a good reason for that. And - again - at this time, I'm only trying to get USEFOR finished. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j534BgOA058896 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j534Bgb6058895 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:11:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.1.72]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j534Bfh1058888 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C952595A3 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j534BfC00061; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506030411.j534BfC00061@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> (forrest@mibsoftware.com) Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> wrote: > My primary objection at this time is that your proposed text change is > incomplete, because other parts of USEFOR and USEPRO must be changed > > - to provide guidance on how to interpret a references header in a > received article, Exactly as before: thread it as if the article were a followup. That's the reason for inserting the References header. > - to limit conformant applications to insert References headers only > when appropriate. I believe the draft documents lack text > allowing or restricting References in Usefor except for followups. Appropriate is defined, roughly, as "the poster intends that this article be treated as a followup to that one" (or use the term "threaded" as appropriate). That's the existing practice. I agree, it wouldn't be wrong to address those (at least the second, I'd have to check existing wording to see if there are any changes needed to accommodate the first). Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j533cEYH057224 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j533cEXa057223 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pine.epix.net (pine.epix.net [199.224.64.53]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j533cDBE057216 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (hrbg-216-108-206-21-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net [216.108.206.21]) by pine.epix.net (8.12.10/2004120601/PL) with ESMTP id j533bugt015316 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429FD091.2090807@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:37:53 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" <forrest@mibsoftware.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 199.224.89.152 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I am pretty sure that John Stanley disagrees with this. I object too, for rational reasons, which have not been addressed. Surely, "reasons" trump "opinion"? Oh, wait, this is Usefor, where people seriously write you can "thread on Subject." > If there are other people who violently object to this formulation, I don't do "violence", unless a formal objection at Last call counts as violence. > or > who think that the group has or can reach a consensus that is best > represented by a different formulation, please speak up. John and I raised objections which received no adequate response already. Will doing it again have any different result? My primary objection at this time is that your proposed text change is incomplete, because other parts of USEFOR and USEPRO must be changed - to provide guidance on how to interpret a references header in a received article, - to limit conformant applications to insert References headers only when appropriate. I believe the draft documents lack text allowing or restricting References in Usefor except for followups. That being the case, your change will open up a huge hole unless it gets plugged other ways. If you show us what you intend for those changes, I might be able to respond. As it is, your statement "Note: Other articles may also use the "References" header." will ensure that "threading on References" will be as unreliable as "threading on Subject." This direction is contrary to the entire point of a "draft standard," which is to define formats and protocols so that you can implement RELIABLE BEHAVIOR. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52NgRMX043336 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52NgRTu043335 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52NgQVd043325 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j52NgLlS080554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021635560.853@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > I am pretty sure that John Stanley disagrees with this. RFC2822 disagrees with this. RFC1036 and current practice disagree with this. The previous documents produced by this group that went through last call disagree with this. It would be nice if you would let me speak for myself, and when you list what disagrees with what, you don't pretend that I'm standing alone. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Na14T042834 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52Na1ZV042833 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:36:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Na0EH042826 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j52NZs4K061939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:35:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: IMAP definitions on threading Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021621310.853@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Your particular words that I found too strong were: >> Threading on Subject does not exist. ??? Too strong? Please. >I pointed to the particular IMAP draft as an example of a person using the >word "threading" to describe something very like what you don't want to >call "threading". We already have examples of people calling it "threading". We also have examples of why it really isn't threading. >Your problem. But your claim that this definition is "the truth" is too >strong for my taste. The solution is simple. Answer either or both of the questions I presented with the correct threading as determined by the Subject header and disprove my reading of the RFC. That you did not (and I maintain you cannot) is sufficient to indicate that threading is not possible with the Subject header, and thus "threading by subject" does not exist as such. I am at a loss as to why people care so much about not being correct to call their sorting algorithm "threading", when the final result is exactly the same. The only difference is that they don't mislead naive users into thinking their presentation order has any physical reality behind it when they admit they just sort by subject, and they do mislead them when they claim they can determine threading by subject. Perhaps the problem is that you think of threads as "lumps of articles" and not the more realistic "group of articles with a defined hierarchical relationship"? And that lumping articles together by similar subject is "close enough", when you don't care what the hierarchical relationship is? I think current usage of thread is certainly not just "lump", but how articles are "strung together" -- and that's why "thread" is used instead of "lump". But even for the "lump", the Subject header just doesn't contain the necessary information, so even "lumping" by Subject isn't really possible. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52MC09k035348 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52MC074035347 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.25]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52MBsCB035332 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52MBkHK050946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:11:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <053201c567c0$12ffc160$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:11:40 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand: > NEW: > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of > an earlier article. (the followup's "precursor" indicated in the > "References" header). > All "followups" have a "References" header. > Note: Other articles may also use the "References" header. I can live with that, although I will still call articles "followup" that have no "References" header but that are obviously reactions on an earlier article. So now I have to share this story on something that happened about an hour ago: Someone that posts through his ISP's newsserver (news.chello.nl) suddenly started reacting on older articles but with quoted text from newer articles, because he could find the newer articles 90 minutes earlier on google. So what he did was follow-up to an earlier posting and replacing the body as if he was reacting on a posting that he still had to received from his ISP's newsserver. He wrote that he did that to be closer involved in the discussions. He obviously didn't manually update the "References" header, so his reactions popped-up in all the wrong places on people's screens. Luckily the discussions were in the nl-hierarchy, and he could be persuaded to start using the good & free news://fb1.euro.net -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LqLcM034113 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52LqLAM034112 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LqKHL034103 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB1E61B5D for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:52:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19313-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:52:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8837461AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:52:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:52:17 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1022: USEFOR 2.1 obs-phrase: Should dot be permitted in phrases? Message-ID: <BB0F313E29E179910C3E741A@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> I have filed ticket #1022 to cover this issue. At the moment, section 2.1 of USEFOR-04 says: News articles MUST conform to the syntax specified in Section 3 of [RFC2822]. Netnews agents MAY also accept the obsolete syntax specified in Section 4 of [RFC2822], but they MUST NOT generate productions of such syntax. This makes generation of obs-phrase (which allows unquoted dots in "phrase") forbidden. I have failed to find a consistent message that someone is arguing that we should change this. I think Charles is arguing for a change, but I'm not sure - either whether he really wants to change it, or what particular change he'd propose. My instinct is "don't mess with other standards" and leave it as it is. Is someone arguing strongly that we should change it? Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LSEWI032126 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52LSEfQ032125 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LSDms032116 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F53061B5D for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:28:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18986-10 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:28:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750DD61AFB for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:28:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:28:10 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1008 USEFOR 1.5: Suggested language on "followup" Message-ID: <E1EC397EEA187F366183D72B@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> The thread following my summary doesn't seem to have created many new arguments or changes of opinion, so the next step is trying to suggest language.... The option among my 4 alternatives that seemed to be least controversial was this one: 2) All "followups" have a References: header. There exist articles that have References:, but are not "followups" In order to make this entirely clear in USEFOR, I suggest the following edit: 1) To section 1.5: OLD: A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an earlier article (the followup's "precursor" indicated in the "References" header). NEW: A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of an earlier article. (the followup's "precursor" indicated in the "References" header). All "followups" have a "References" header. Note: Other articles may also use the "References" header. I am pretty sure that John Stanley disagrees with this. If there are other people who violently object to this formulation, or who think that the group has or can reach a consensus that is best represented by a different formulation, please speak up. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LIl60031561 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52LIlmE031560 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52LIkPr031553 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D5761B5D; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:18:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19116-02; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:18:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759E561AFB; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:18:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:18:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: IMAP definitions on threading Message-ID: <831A26DD0DEF2C9A8E5ED3DA@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021011150.11331@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021011150.11331@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On torsdag, juni 02, 2005 10:58:16 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >> John, I believe you are using language stronger than is justified. > > I see nothing improper in my language. > >> If you check out draft-ietf-imapext-thread-13 (the draft is expired, >> unfortunately), you will find the method called ORDEREDSUBJECT referred >> to as "threading" - > > And obviously since it is in an IETF draft it is gospel. I shudder to > think how many patently wrong things have appeared in USEFOR IETF draft > products in the past, but apparently I should assume that every other WG > never says anything daffy in their drafts. > >> ... the fact that you do not like this particular name for this way of >> ordering messages does not mean that you have the right to claim that it >> "does not exist". > > First of all, I did not claim that "that way of ordering articles" does > not exist. I've been pretty clear that I understand that it is done, and > that we have no control over it being done that way. So, implying that > I've said "it does not exist" is nonsense. Your particular words that I found too strong were: > Threading on Subject does not exist. I pointed to the particular IMAP draft as an example of a person using the word "threading" to describe something very like what you don't want to call "threading". You may have a definition of "threading" that makes the IMAP command THREAD ORDEREDSUBJECT do something that doesn't fit your definition, so you may want to say that "THREAD ORDEREDSUBJECT" is not threading. Your problem. But your claim that this definition is "the truth" is too strong for my taste. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52KGA37026408 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52KGAiR026407 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52KG8bS026401 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddw19-00073s-M7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:10:15 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.133 ([212.82.251.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:10:15 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:10:15 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: encoded words in an obs-phrase Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:07:22 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 36 Message-ID: <429F66FA.35E4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506011436.56132.blilly@erols.com> <429E5EB1.3AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506021522.36705.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.133 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: >>>> RfC 2047, >>> orthogonal to 2822. >> It _redefines_ phrase. > Not significantly (note that -- intentionally Sure, it's clear what it's really doing. But some subtleties with specials in Q-encoded words are still fascinating. Like attempts to decode without parsing "only to display it", where "it" was a structured header field. >> There might be one redefinition too many if USEFOR tries it >> for the third time, > Are you suggesting that there's a proposal on the table that > would do so? If this table includes "an idea I posted yesterday here", yes, just replace the 2822 phrase by its obscene incarnation: {2822] | phrase = 1*word / obs-phrase | obs-phrase = word *(word / "." / CFWS) [idea] phrase = word *(word / "." / CFWS) > a normative reference to RFC 2822 should suffice We have a normative "2822 excl. all obs- forms". The same strategy as for Date would also work, but that's more than just a reference, it's two paragraphs of text plus the ANBF. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52JMmYg021641 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52JMmSs021640 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.townisp.com (ns1a.townisp.com [216.195.0.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52JMlPK021633 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns1.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046729929; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j52JMfZd004323(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.23 2005/03/23 20:35:49) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:41 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j52JMdkW004322(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:40 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: encoded words in an obs-phrase Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:22:34 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <200506011436.56132.blilly@erols.com> <429E5EB1.3AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <429E5EB1.3AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506021522.36705.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 1 2005 21:19, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > If you replace an entire SP-delimited word, you have to > > consider whether what is on the other side of the SP is > > or is not an encoded word and is or is not part of the > > phrase and is or is not a special > > Yes, and so far there never were any specials in a phrase, > unless they were already encoded / quoted / in a comment. The veracity of that statement depends on the definition of "in", e.g. given Keywords: =?us?q?foo?= (bar), baz the comment can be said to be "in" the phrase containing the encoded-word (both appear before the delimiting comma), and the left parenthesis is a special but would normally not be considered to be "in" the comment (it delimits comments in many structured fields). This is an ambiguity related to vagueness of RFC 822, which permits comments but is silent about whether a comment such as the one above is or is not "in" the phrase; RFC 2822 tacks on [CFWS] to many productions, meaning the comment can clearly be said to be "in" the phrase: atom = [CFWS] 1*atext [CFWS] word = atom / quoted-string phrase = 1*word / obs-phrase but unfortunately the 2822 grammar also results sometimes in adjacent [CFWS] [CFWS], resulting in some remaining ambiguities (but not in this instance). > In other words a recipe like "grab anything in a phrase up to > the next delimiter (= comma in the case of keywords), DQUOTE, > encoded-word (=?), or comment , and then encode it as you see > fit under the rules of 2047" worked. The "under the rules of 2047" entails quite a bit of complexity; it is definitely not as simple as considering a word without looking at surrounding context. Even in the simple case of encountering a comma (== special), there are rules; an encoded-word has to be separated from specials by linear whitespace. > > In any event, '.' being a special, it cannot appear in an > > encoded-word in a phrase. > > Exactly, that's the point (pun intended). The 2822 obs-phrase > would break the simple recipe to get it automatically right. The "simple recipe" isn't as simple as you initially stated, and the rules handling specials suffice as well for a period as for a comma. Note that 2822's rule only states that if an unquoted period appears in certain places it might be considered part of a phrase for parsing; it does not permit it for generation. Your concern seems to be about generation ("grab anything [...] then encode"), and as 2822 does not change the prohibition regarding unquoted periods for generation, there is no problem. > > 2822 obsoletes STD 11 > > Don't tell me, tell it to legacy applications. BTW, the IESG > has just approved an RfC explaining these issues of backwards > compatibility: > > | There are many subtleties and variations that may come into > | play. Authors should very carefully consider backwards > | compatibility when devising extensions, and should clearly > | describe all known compatibility issues. > > Sounds familiar ? Yes, as does "non-binding informational supplement". In the specific case under discussion, there is no change to generation rules. Lack of backwards compatibility happens when some new set of generation rules permits something to be foisted upon deployed implementations which are unprepared for it. That doesn't apply here. > >> RfC 2047, > > orthogonal to 2822. > > It _redefines_ phrase. Not significantly (note that -- intentionally -- the important characters constituting an encoded-word, '=', '?', and in the case of the RFC 2231 amendment, '*', are all legal in "atom", as are the B and Q encoded characters, legal charset and language tag names (at least as currently defined)). That was done precisely for backwards compatibility; an encoded-word *is* an atom as far as pre-MIME RFC 822 parsing is concerned. The "redefinition" is for the benefit of MIME-aware parsers that recognize encoded-words as a special subset of atoms. While both =?us?q?foo?= and =??*-???= are atoms, only the former is an encoded-word. > There might be one redefinition too > many if USEFOR tries it for the third time, Are you suggesting that there's a proposal on the table that would do so? > But I hate anything making usefor-05 longer / more obscure / > less readable / unclear / a waste of time. In this case, a normative reference to RFC 2822 should suffice. If there is some operational issue related to it, then the most concise, clearest, most readable, and simplest way to address the matter would be along the lines suggested by Mark Crispin (not limited to *this* issue; it applies to SP-after-colon, length of msg-id, etc. ad nauseum). Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HwOpO015171 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52HwOOk015170 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HwNLC015160 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:58:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j52HwG4K020549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:58:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: IMAP definitions on threading Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506021011150.11331@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.16 () BAD_CREDIT X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >John, I believe you are using language stronger than is justified. I see nothing improper in my language. >If you check out draft-ietf-imapext-thread-13 (the draft is expired, >unfortunately), you will find the method called ORDEREDSUBJECT referred to >as "threading" - And obviously since it is in an IETF draft it is gospel. I shudder to think how many patently wrong things have appeared in USEFOR IETF draft products in the past, but apparently I should assume that every other WG never says anything daffy in their drafts. >... the fact that you do not like this particular name for this way of >ordering messages does not mean that you have the right to claim that it >"does not exist". First of all, I did not claim that "that way of ordering articles" does not exist. I've been pretty clear that I understand that it is done, and that we have no control over it being done that way. So, implying that I've said "it does not exist" is nonsense. But then, what part of "the Subject header contains NO article relationship information" do you see as saying "I don't like this and thus it does not exist?" If you can read paragraphs that point out obvious technical limitations in calling something "theading" and pretend that the only argument being presented is "he doesn't like it", then there is a problem. Perhaps you'd like to disprove my statement? Ok, here are four subject headers. Please put them in the correct threading order, using the "threading information" you find in those headers. Be explicit, and describe exactly what threading information you base your decision on. You may open your test booklet and begin now. 1: Subject: A question 2: Subject: Re: A question 3: Subject: Re: A question 4: Subject: Stop asking stupid questions Warning: it's a trick question. You cannot answer correctly. But then, that's the point. There is no data to generate the right answer. The Subject header simply does not allow threading, especially not the identification of specific threads that someone here claimed was possible. Sorting, yes. Threading, no. And not just "because I don't like it", because the RFC doesn't support it. Oh, wait, that was synthetic, so it obviously isn't like real-world data. Ok. Here's four real subjects from a real newsgroup. Put them in the proper threaded relationship. I'll make it easier, I'll make it multiple choice, but you still have to show your work. If you simply answer "B" without supporting work, you get no credit. "Process of elimination" is acceptable. 1: how does ByteLoader work? 2: Re: how does ByteLoader work? 3: Re: how does ByteLoader work? 4: Re: how does ByteLoader work? A: 1->2->3->4 B: 1->2, 1->3, 2->4 C: 1->2->3, 1->4 D: 1->4, 4->2, 2->3 E: 1->4, ?->2, ?->3 (? is "article not listed above") And the correct answer is: Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HrENx014608 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52HrEtS014607 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HrBuh014597 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EC813A987 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j52HrBr29179; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200506021753.j52HrBr29179@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart <sethb@panix.com> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <IHGGEJ.Jzn@clerew.man.ac.uk> (chl@clerew.man.ac.uk) Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <IHGGEJ.Jzn@clerew.man.ac.uk> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > OTOH, I would have some sympathy for the man who decided that the > new Subject had changed so far from the original topic that it was > really a new thread, and who therefore manually trimmed all the > earlier articles out of the References header. If the connection between his article and its predecessor were as tenuous as "That reminds me of an interesting story . . ." that would be fine. Otherwise, he's breaking the connection between his article and its parent, which is likely not such a good idea. > Yes, that would break the letter of our drafts, but it would be well > within the spirit. But then, we can't control user behavior anyway. Seth Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HhX22012997 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52HhXXZ012996 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52HhVLS012985 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddtdn-0002Ie-0i for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:37:59 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.133 ([212.82.251.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:37:59 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.133 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:37:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:36:33 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 70 Message-ID: <429F43A1.355D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.133 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: [CFWS issues for parameters] > I don't want to discuss these here, because they are better > resolved offline. Is anything wrong with copying RfC 3834 opt-parameter-list ? I'd be very interested if that's not more state of the art. > 1. We now have <ext-param>s, which allow for further > parameters in extensions. There is also a query: > [[Should also allow for x-attributes?]] RfC 2231 <attribute-char> allows "x" and "-" among others. Why reserve "x-" if there's no IANA registry ? RfC 3834 has not a single additional word about opt-parameter-list. >| allow <parameter>s with x-attributes Is x-attributes a defined term ? I know what you mean, but we would get "[x] draft should try to avoid hacker slang" for it. > a) folding SHOULD NOT happen in silly places Let's better forget it. An article format designed to simplify "killfiling" can't be a good idea for USEFOR. Maybe put it in USEAGE. Some uses of sender= or posting-account= are probably against the law in my country, and some legal uses won't allow "killfiling". > b) if several parameters are present, they SHOULD come in a > prescribed order See (a), it's not worth it. > c) if a <post-account-param> is used, a given sender SHOULD > always show up as the same posting-account, at least in > the short term. Dito, that's a legal nightmare, let's forget it, or discuss it with some legal advisors and privacy officers - IANAL. No idea for your point 3. If you want to put something in a sender= that's neither "verified" nor a mailbox you have to allow it. Unless this NNTP AUTH stuff has the syntactical form of a mailbox of course. > (as Frank would have us do in his parallel universe) With the MUST in 2.3 I lose. It's still strange, RfC 2822 and mail manage to avoid this issue, why are we unable to do this ? What's wrong with our zero-I18N newsgroup names etc., that we still need this RfC 2231 MUSTard ? > we can still discourage its unnecessary use It does this by itself, we don't need to worry about this: | IMPORTANT NOTE: These mechanisms end up being somewhat | gibbous when they actually are used. As such, these | mechanisms should not be used lightly; they should be | reserved for situations where a real need for them exists. What we really need are some security considerations about the MIME boundary parameter. While we're at it we could also add a note about the known message/partial risks, it's essentially the same issue - IIRC with a registered "MIME vulnerability" number for the latter, we could even add it to the informative references, if that's allowed and good style (?) Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52GgqBj007824 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52Ggq6E007823 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:42:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52GgpHE007817 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j52Ggoe0029453 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:42:51 -0700 Received: (qmail 24184 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jun 2005 16:42:50 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Injection-Info issues In-Reply-To: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:31:54 GMT") References: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <87u0kgsoad.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> writes: > 3. There is now a draft (with Ken's name on it) for SASL authentication > within NNTP. That may give rise AIUI to an "authorization identity" > which may or may not be in the form of a <mailbox>. I think you mean authentication identity; authorization identity is the thing that we had before. The authentication identity may, in fact, may often look like a <mailbox> but not actually be one in any traditional sense. > An injecting agent might then decide to use this identity in the > Injection-Info header. Question: do we need a seperate "SASL-identity" > parameter for this, or can we just use the "sender" parameter and, if > so, should its syntax be extended to suit? If anyone expects sender to be an actual mailbox, using it for the authentication identity is a bad idea, since the authentication identity may be indistinguishable from a mailbox but not be usable for the same purpose. SASL-identity is a bad choice since it unnecessarily restricts what the field may be used for. I'd rather use a more generic name. The field should be described as an opaque token that may only have meaning for the originating site. > 4. Everyone on the WG heartily dislikes RFC 2231, and would like to > deprecate its use except where absolutely necessary. Not true. I'm just tired of arguing about it. I think it's a workable, if ugly, solution to the (very hard) problem it was trying to solve, and the *real* problem is using MIME-style parameters in places where they don't belong. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Gai2Z007104 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:36:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52GaiTt007103 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:36:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52GahRt007096 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j52Gagsj006533 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:36:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 24055 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jun 2005 16:36:42 -0000 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text In-Reply-To: <2916D97073D397081972AC9D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:59:13 +0200") References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <2916D97073D397081972AC9D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> Organization: The Eyrie Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <87y89ssokl.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4 (Jumbo Shrimp, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: > checking..... is the !! stuff a feature that has seen production use > somewhere, or is it a new feature that we are adding? It's a new feature. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52GEY4n005184 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52GEYJG005183 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52GEWmM005177 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-71-109.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.71.109]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.181) id 429f302c.11b02.286 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:13:33 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j52GCIi27802 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:12:18 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21006 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Injection-Info issues Message-ID: <IHGr56.L6z@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:31:54 GMT Lines: 71 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Draft-usefor-03 added proper texts for the various parameters of the Injection-Info header, and draft-usefor-04 added <ext-param>s, and fixed a problem with the <complainto-param>. But I still have a few issues I would like to raise. NOTE: There are further issues regarding the way <parameter>s are defined, where CFWS is allowed and where quoting is needed, but I don't want to discuss these here, because they are better resolved offline. So, my issues: 1. We now have <ext-param>s, which allow for further parameters in extensions. There is also a query: [[Should also allow for x-attributes?]] I suggest the following text: <ext-params> are provided to allow additional <parameter>s to be defined in future extensions, and also to allow <parameter>s with x-attributes to be used in circumstances where the defined ones appear to be insufficient. 2. A major use of this header will be for killfiling by users on particular parameters, or as an aid to detecting spams, spews, etc by netcops (in the best sense of that term). There were a several features in the old draft-13 to facilitate this: a) folding SHOULD NOT happen in silly places, and <comment>s should come at the end (this provision is already in the draft). b) if several parameters are present, they SHOULD come in a prescribed order (such as the order they are defined in the syntax) so as to facilitate writing regular expressions. c) if a <post-account-param> is used, a given sender SHOULD always show up as the same posting-account, at least in the short term. I would like to see fetures b and c reinstated, plus an explanatory NOTE mentioning killfiles. The texts in draft-13 could easily be reinstated or adapted. 3. There is now a draft (with Ken's name on it) for SASL authentication within NNTP. That may give rise AIUI to an "authorization identity" which may or may not be in the form of a <mailbox>. An injecting agent might then decide to use this identity in the Injection-Info header. Question: do we need a seperate "SASL-identity" parameter for this, or can we just use the "sender" parameter and, if so, should its syntax be extended to suit? 4. Everyone on the WG heartily dislikes RFC 2231, and would like to deprecate its use except where absolutely necessary. Assuming that we are not in a position to get rid of RFC 2231 entirely (as Frank would have us do in his parallel universe), we can still discourage its unnecessary use. Here is a text that I have suggested before (though there may be a better place to put it than in the Injection-Info section): NOTE: Although the provisions of RFC 2231 for Non-ASCII characters in <value>s of <parameter>s provide useful additional functionality, those for splitting <value>s over multiple lines offer no additional benefit, since the only length limit on header lines specified by this standard is an overall 998 octets. That latter mechanism is, moreover, somewhat gibbous, and as RFC 2231 itself recommends its use only where a real need exists, it is better avoided within Netnews. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52FxN0r003578 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52FxN7S003577 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52FxKTX003569 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15F761B5F; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:59:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14667-01; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:59:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFC161AFB; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:59:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:59:13 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <2916D97073D397081972AC9D@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On onsdag, juni 01, 2005 19:54:44 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: > The <keyword> "POSTED" > indicates that the agent to its left injected the article. The use > of the <path-delimiter> "!!" indicates that the agent to its left > claims that the agent to its right was the verified source of the > article (whereas the <path-delimiter> "!" implies no such claim). checking..... is the !! stuff a feature that has seen production use somewhere, or is it a new feature that we are adding? since it could concievably be constructed as having to do with security, it's a potential sticky point with the security ADs. Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52ErbeB097571 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52ErbAd097568 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Erakw097548 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-187.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.187]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429f1a10.11bb9.150 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:39:12 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j52Ebel26541 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:37:40 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20998 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Misc. ABNF nits Message-ID: <IHGFMI.Jv6@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <429CC960.3FFD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050531165621.28336A-100000@spsystems.net> <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEKoA.DLq@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:23:06 GMT Lines: 25 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> So what is your problem? >Attackers could try to hide behind a foo_bar.example.com >path identity, because it doesn't work as an abuse@ FQDN But even if '_' was forbidden as a <path-identity> character, the attacker could still try to hide behind foobar.example.com, and I doubt abuse@foobar.example.com would work either (attackers are not in the habit of using email addresses that "work", unless they are trying to generate a mailbomb). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52ErbeX097572 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52ErbKC097569 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52EraqJ097549 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-187.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.187]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429f1a11.11bb9.152 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:39:13 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j52Ebgj26551 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:37:42 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20999 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: encoded words in an obs-phrase (was: Differences between RFC 2822 and Usefor) Message-ID: <IHGG7p.Jxv@clerew.man.ac.uk> Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K._Moore?= , =?utf-8?Q?Jonathan_(Jon)_Postel?= X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <4299F711.3415@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHB279.oI@clerew.man.ac.uk> <7720B187EEDCD0754BC8E464@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <429CD378.25B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEJwJ.D1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:35:49 GMT Lines: 46 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >>> display-name = word *(word / "." / CFWS) >>> This syntax would still disallow obscene keywords. >> If we are going to put it into USEFOR (and I think we >> should), then it may as well go into Keywords too. It is >> clearly allowed in Keywords in RFC 2822 >Only by a very obs-cure rule, hiding itself as obs-olete, >and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with RfC 2047: >Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K._Moore?= >That's illegal, see 2047 5.3. Dito for a <display-name>. It is a MUST accept (but NOT generate) in RFC 2822. But it is not a valid <encoded-word> according to RFC 2047 (because RFC 2047 has not caught up with the change introduced by RFC 2822). But you could write Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K=2E_Moore?= and then everyone should be happy. But the whole point is that people are going to write From: K.Moore <keith@wherever> whether we like it or not. So RFC 2822 said that MUST be accepted, and I (and Bruce, it seems) are saying that USEFOR should say essentially the same. And if it does it for <addr-spec>s, then it may as well do it for Keywords too, just to avoid yet more exceptions in the grammar (for sure, it won't break anything to allow that). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Erbwd097573 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52ErbAV097570 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Era2O097550 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-187.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.187]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429f1a11.11bb9.151 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:39:13 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j52EbhM26555 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:37:43 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:21000 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <IHGGEJ.Jzn@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:39:54 GMT Lines: 26 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> writes: >A followup agent has to obey some rules when following up to >an article with a references header, the subject header can never >override this. If a followup agent ignores the references header >when creating a followup just because the subject has changed, it >would be broken. OTOH, I would have some sympathy for the man who decided that the new Subject had changed so far from the original topic that it was really a new thread, and who therefore manually trimmed all the earlier articles out of the References header. Yes, that would break the letter of our drafts, but it would be well within the spirit. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52DcdMB090848 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52Dcde5090847 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52Dcb0n090840 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddpq9-0005PK-Ie for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:34:29 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.76]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:34:29 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:34:29 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-04.txt Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:32:45 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 22 Message-ID: <429F0A7D.6D54@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <200505241947.PAA07375@ietf.org> <42939B43.5F06@xyzzy.claranet.de> <1E84DEC1F8377954146EE162@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > RT claims that you should instead bookmark this horror: > https://rt.psg.com/Search/Listing.html?Bookmark=FrT%3B%404%7C%256%7C%241%7C1%241%7C2%241%7C3%258%7C%2411%7CDESCRIPTION%245%7CFIELD%248%7COPERATOR%245%7CVALUE%2414%7CQueue%20%3D%20usefor%245%7CQueue%241%7C%3D%246%7Cusefor%258%7C%2411%7CDESCRIPTION%245%7CFIELD%248%7COPERATOR%245%7CVALUE%2413%7CStatus%20%3D%20open%246%7CStatus%241%7C%3D%244%7Copen%258%7C%2411%7CDESCRIPTION%245%7CFIELD%248%7COPERATOR%245%7CVALUE%2412%7CStatus%20%3D%20new%246%7CStatus%241%7C%3D%243%7Cnew%241%7C4%241%7C0%241%7C0&TicketsSortBy=&TicketsSortOrder=&RowsPerPage=50 Ouch. For a given ticket number like 1021 the shorter URL... <https://rt.psg.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=1021> ...works. I've just tested to add a comment, but when I wanted to spam the world (using my own address and Alexey's in a CC: as test victims) it fortunately said njet. > Login with user "ietf", password "ietf". A shorter version of the horror link apparently also works: <https://rt.psg.com/Search/Listing.html?QueueOp=%3D&ValueOfQueue=48> It only wants some queue "=" "48" to be happy for USEFOR with the search defaults for owner, sort order, status, etc. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52D5jwI082829 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52D5jU0082828 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.29]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52D5hMw082796 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52D5a8v014869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:05:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <01ab01c56773$c6d0f490$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <I+AR5nMw9bnCFAow@highwayman.com> <IHGFFq.JL5@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:05:31 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey schreef: > the whole discussion > would have made more sense if I had just sorted it on Date within > Subject. For mailing-lists, I read-by-date-only. For mailing-lists that share a large group of contributors, I even let those messages be delivered to a common mailbox, and read-by-date-only. I rather use date-received than the Date-header. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CgaWg074216 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52CgaLj074215 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CgZGW074200 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E017961B5D; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11677-01; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7B361AFB; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:42:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: IMAP definitions on threading (Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far) Message-ID: <CF8CC0F499F04A77F00ED4AE@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506011452160.11057@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506011452160.11057@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> This thread is far enough off topic that I'm changing the subject line... --On onsdag, juni 01, 2005 15:10:10 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: >> With "threading on Subject", > > Threading on Subject does not exist. It is "sorting by subject". You > obviously missed the entire paragraph where I pointed out that the Subject > header has NO article relationship information, and thus cannot be used to > identify threads. John, I believe you are using language stronger than is justified. If you check out draft-ietf-imapext-thread-13 (the draft is expired, unfortunately), you will find the method called ORDEREDSUBJECT referred to as "threading" - the fact that you do not like this particular name for this way of ordering messages does not mean that you have the right to claim that it "does not exist". Harald Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CZtUV071877 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52CZtYG071876 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CZsY2071864 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdoqD-0004gk-AB for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:30:29 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.76]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:30:29 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:30:29 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:24:17 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 7 Message-ID: <429EFA71.3956@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Sorry, now that Bruce is back I could stop this, but... >| 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an >| A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine ...we need "or AAAA", don't we ? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CDHwu063701 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52CDHPg063699 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52CDEGJ063670 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdoWI-00020a-D4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:09:54 +0200 Received: from c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.76]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:09:54 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:09:54 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Path header - suggested text Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:10:04 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 42 Message-ID: <429EF71C.7383@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-76.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > This is, I hope, the final form of the Path header. Thanks, I found no problems, maybe two and a half nits: > path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) > *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / ":" / "_" ) See below. >| 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an >| A record, which SHOULD identify the actual machine RfC 1034 (3.6) offers s/machine/host/ if it has an A record. I stumbled over it while checking that we get no "_" here. >| this SHOULD then be followed by CRLF and WSP if it would >| otherwise result in a line longer than 79 characters. See below. >| All such prepended material SHOULD be followed by CRLF and >| WSP if it would otherwise result in a line longer than 79 >| characters. I tried to check the magic number 79 in s-o-1036, found nothing, but stumbled over this part: Note, in particular, that RFC 1036 treats "_" as a delim- iter, but in fact it is known to appear in relayer names occasionally. So "_" is apparently not exactly compatible with RfC 1036. If Henry doesn't publish s-o-1036 before its grandson the latter could say so. Most probably irrelevant. If the 79 is an almost arbitrary magic number I'd prefer one of the known magic numbers (78 in 2822, or 76 in 2047), too many magic numbers are confusing. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52BKaiw046548 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j52BKauc046547 for ietf-usefor-skb; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-6.gradwell.net (lon-mail-6.gradwell.net [193.111.201.132]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j52BKY3j046527 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-17.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.17]) by lon-mail-6.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.181) id 429eeb7f.1426f.5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:20:31 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j52BJ7d25434 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:19:07 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20997 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <IHGFFq.JL5@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <I+AR5nMw9bnCFAow@highwayman.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:19:02 GMT Lines: 48 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <I+AR5nMw9bnCFAow@highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> writes: >In message <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org>, John >Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes >>There is never a necessity to sort by Subject (not "thread", since Subject >>isn't a threadable header.). >apologies, I was imprecise I meant "attempt to locate specific thread >using Subject (fuzzy matching as needed) and place into position using >other clues such as Date" Which is sometimes referred to as "Poor man's threading" (there is even an ID with those words in it). But USEFOR does not define "threading" as a specific technical term, so it means whatever it means "out there in the real world", where is is sometime used loosely to describe several threading-like activities. That loose "real world" meaning is plenty good enough for the limited use of the term in our drafts. >>If it isn't ever necessary, >I think it is :) I like threads. So do almost all the people who use >the software I designed. That's quite a few. OTOH, pure threading is not always the best. I was recently reviewing a discussion on this WG dating from 2001. A large tree of sub-threads was generated over several days and, reading those articles in the usual "depth first traversal", I found that I kept coming across messages which predated (and appeared to contradict) messages from those same people which I had already read. The problem was that people were replying in one sub-thread of the tree with full knowledge of what people had said in parallel sub-threads. I managed to work it all out, but I concluded that the whole discussion would have made more sense if I had just sorted it on Date within Subject. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j521Q8Wo089939 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j521Q8hb089938 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j521Q6wj089931 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdePp-0001GL-Ib for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:22:33 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:22:33 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:22:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: encoded words in an obs-phrase Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:19:45 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 81 Message-ID: <429E5EB1.3AE8@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHEJwJ.D1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> <200506011436.56132.blilly@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Bruce Lilly wrote: [2047] > I think you mean section 5, paragraph marked "(3)"; > there is no 5.3. Yes, your assumption is correct. > If you replace an entire SP-delimited word, you have to > consider whether what is on the other side of the SP is > or is not an encoded word and is or is not part of the > phrase and is or is not a special Yes, and so far there never were any specials in a phrase, unless they were already encoded / quoted / in a comment. In other words a recipe like "grab anything in a phrase up to the next delimiter (= comma in the case of keywords), DQUOTE, encoded-word (=?), or comment , and then encode it as you see fit under the rules of 2047" worked. > N.B. Q encoding differs from QP encoding. Yes, they are <quote rfc=2047> similar </quote>. > In any event, '.' being a special, it cannot appear in an > encoded-word in a phrase. Exactly, that's the point (pun intended). The 2822 obs-phrase would break the simple recipe to get it automatically right. > Why one would use encoding with utf-8 in the absence of > language tagging for text which can be represented in the > default us-ascii charset is a complete mystery. utf-8 was shorter than us-ascii for my example. Think of any reasonable case, e.g. =?utf-8*en?q?Moore?= combined with voice output. =?utf-8*de?q?Moore?= would sound like "more a" and is the German plural of "moor". > 2822 obsoletes STD 11 Don't tell me, tell it to legacy applications. BTW, the IESG has just approved an RfC explaining these issues of backwards compatibility: | There are many subtleties and variations that may come into | play. Authors should very carefully consider backwards | compatibility when devising extensions, and should clearly | describe all known compatibility issues. Sounds familiar ? >> RfC 2047, > orthogonal to 2822. It _redefines_ phrase. There might be one redefinition too many if USEFOR tries it for the third time, and it could... | Cause a deployed implementation to behave differently from | how it would behave in the absence of the proposed change, | in ways that are not intended by the proposal. That is a | failure of the proposal to remain backwards compatible with | the deployed base of implementations. >> s-o-1036. > Not a standard of any kind. Not an RFC of any kind. The best available standard available for Netnews articles, if you have difficulties to decide which of the 13 + 4 usefor drafts might be better than 1036. Probably it inspired some developers over the years, and resulted in deployed software. Unlike msg-id = "<" id-local "@" id-domain ">" and potential 2231-boundary-risks I don't care much about this period-issue. But I hate anything making usefor-05 longer / more obscure / less readable / unclear / a waste of time. Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51MAHSb076840 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51MAHWu076839 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51MAGo6076818 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51MAAlS032441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506011452160.11057@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@xxxxxxxxxxxx>: >You obviously missed the "only" in the first sentence that you quote >from my text. I obviously did no such thing. Sorting by subject does not include date headers, otherwise it would be called "sorting by making things up" and not just "sort by subject". >With "threading on Subject", Threading on Subject does not exist. It is "sorting by subject". You obviously missed the entire paragraph where I pointed out that the Subject header has NO article relationship information, and thus cannot be used to identify threads. >It is threading, Nonsense. >because the software uses whatever it finds to >detect followup-relations between messages, The Subject header contains NO information regarding followup relations between messages, so using the Subject header to detect followup relations is impossible. The Date header contains no information about followup relations, so ditto. The body is UNSTRUCTURED. Nothing plus nothing plus nothing is nothing, not "just like a References header". >and presents them in a >tree-structure just like if there was a References-header to go by. The fact that some clients lie to the user and pretend that there is some relationship when none can be detected is unfortunate and should be corrected (but not by us), and is not an excuse for an IETF working group to propogate the lie. A thread is a group of related articles, which can only be detected by the References header. >Such algorithms are also nice to use Obviously you missed the part where I said yeah, people LIKE sorting by subject etc, but that still doesn't make it threading, and that sorting by Subject is neither a) necessary nor b) relevant to a discussion about References. Nothing we do about References headers will make sorting by Subject either more or less correct, even ignoring that the current level of "correct" is zero. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51LA4Ru071789 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51LA40c071788 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.townisp.com (ns4a.townisp.com [216.195.0.138]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51LA26P071779 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blilly@erols.com) Received: from mail.blilly.com (dhcp-0-8-a1-c-fa-f7.cpe.townisp.com [216.49.158.220]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "marty.blilly.com", Issuer "Bruce Lilly" (not verified)) by ns4.townisp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3ADE29930; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marty.blilly.com (marty.blilly.com [192.168.99.98] (may be forged)) by mail.blilly.com with ESMTP id j51L9uNE017886(8.13.1/8.13.1/mail.blilly.com sendmail.mc.mail 1.23 2005/03/23 20:35:49) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:09:57 -0400 Received: from marty.blilly.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by marty.blilly.com with ESMTP id j51L9umT017885(8.13.1/8.13.1/blilly.com submit.mc 1.3 2005/04/08 12:29:31) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:09:56 -0400 From: Bruce Lilly <blilly@erols.com> Reply-To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Organization: Bruce Lilly To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: encoded words in an obs-phrase (was: Differences between RFC 2822 and Usefor) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:36:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8 Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <IHEJwJ.D1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506011436.56132.blilly@erols.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> On Wed June 1 2005 12:23, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >> display-name = word *(word / "." / CFWS) > >> This syntax would still disallow obscene keywords. > > > If we are going to put it into USEFOR (and I think we > > should), then it may as well go into Keywords too. It is > > clearly allowed in Keywords in RFC 2822 > > Only by a very obs-cure rule, hiding itself as obs-olete, > and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with RfC 2047: > > Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K._Moore?= > > That's illegal, see 2047 5.3. Dito for a <display-name>. Leaving aside for the moment whether or not putting Keith's initial and surname in a Keywords field makes sense, I think you mean section 5, paragraph marked "(3)"; there is no 5.3. > Normally you can split a phrase without quoted-string at > any word boundary and replace one or more words by an QP > encoded-word. No, it's not like that. If you replace an entire SP-delimited word, you have to consider whether what is on the other side of the SP is or is not an encoded word and is or is not part of the phrase and is or is not a special, and you may have to include an encoded SP -- underscore for Q encoding, more complex for B encoding -- depending on that analysis. If you did that, the encoded-word length limit might be exceeded, and you'd therefore have to choose a different or additional splitting point. You can't simply replace a word. And N.B. Q encoding differs from QP encoding. In any event, '.' being a special, it cannot appear in an encoded-word in a phrase. RFC 2047 uses and is based on RFC 822 syntax rules, not 2822's, and 2822 does not discuss MIME other than say that it's outside of 2822's scope. Whether or not Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K?= . =?utf-8?Q?_Moore?= might or might not be legal to generate under some hypothetical successors of RFCs 2047 and 2822 is academic. Under 2822, unquoted '.' in a phrase is illegal for generation. And Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K?= ". " =?utf-8?Q?Moore?= is legal under 2047 + (822 or 2822). Why one would use encoding with utf-8 in the absence of language tagging for text which can be represented in the default us-ascii charset is a complete mystery. > This obsure RfC 2822 rule messses with specials, STD 11, 2822 obsoletes STD 11, and defines specials as the same set of twelve characters as the obsoleted STD 11. > RfC 2047, orthogonal to 2822. > and s-o-1036. Not a standard of any kind. Not an RFC of any kind. Predated RFC 2822 and the observed widespread syntax error which 2822 accounts for. > Okay, that's kind of obvious, RfC 2047 only promises that > you can encode word(s) in a phrase, and "(Jon)" is no word. '.' is not a word either. As for keywords, there might be some legitimate use, e.g. "X.25" or "T.3" or "H.263" as keywords. For now, they must be quoted. The decision regarding possible future codifcation in generation rules is up to an RFC 2822 successor. ---------- The reason for this to be part of USEFOR is that we have agreed that USEFOR is to be based on 2822, and it is part of 2822. There also seems to be support for minimizing differences between the article format and the Internet Message Format on which it is based wherever possible. And where there is some operational issue of concern, Mark Crispin's suggestion of an implementation note seems to be a vastly superior method for handling the issue than a horde of "like 2822, except..." clauses, incompatible redefinitions of RFC 2822 terms and grammar productions, and/or endless debates over whether a difference should be expressed by SHOULD or MUST: http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0486.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0493.html http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/2003/Feb/0554.html Had more of us listened to Mark's advice, we might have finished our work two years ago. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Kpf9k070408 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51KpftI070407 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:51:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.28]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51KpdVL070399 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:51:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51KpWsO015612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:51:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <0a3001c566eb$b45404c0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506010929590.24924@a.shell.peak.org> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:49:32 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> John Stanley: > Ruud H.G. van Tol: >> To thread on Subject, doesn't mean that only the value of the >> Subject: header is used. Other information that can be used is >> the Date and the attributions ... > > Simply remarkable. If it isn't sorting by the Subject header, then it > isn't "sort by Subject", it's "sort by date" or "make stuff up > sorting". You obviously missed the "only" in the first sentence that you quote from my text. With "threading on Subject", the Subject is an important value, but a combination of values like Subject + Date + part-of-the-body is needed to find relations on which to thread. > It's a guessing game which works sometimes and fails miserably at > other times I never said it isn't or doesn't. > The problem with what you > are saying is not that sorting isn't done by some clients that way or > that people don't like articles sorted that way, it is that you keep > claiming that this is "threading", and it simply ain't so. It is threading, because the software uses whatever it finds to detect followup-relations between messages, and presents them in a tree-structure just like if there was a References-header to go by. Such algorithms are also nice to use with archives of messages from before the Received-header. Example: http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?threadm=anews.Aucbvax.1635 -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51JwAvT065496 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51JwAkH065495 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Jw6I8065488 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-235.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.235]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429e134b.14b38.5bb for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:58:03 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j51JuNw19304 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:56:23 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20985 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Path header - suggested text Message-ID: <IHF8n8.EtM@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:54:44 GMT Lines: 215 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> This is, I hope, the final form of the Path header. It was pretty well agreed last time, but Alexey asked me to move the material regarding the form of <path-identity>s from USEFOR to USEPRO, which I have now done, resulting in a new "Identification of news-servers" section in USEPRO. There are a few minor fixes required in USEFOR, including a slight syntax change for <tail-entry> which I suggested here a couple of days ago, the removal of an unnecessary reference to the <tail-entry> in USEPRO, and a sentence about <IPv6address>s which did not get moved to USEPRO. In USEFOR 3.1.6 Path The Path header indicates the route taken by an article since its injection into the Netnews system. Each agent that processes an article is required to prepend one (or more) identities to this header. This is primarily to enable relaying agents to avoid sending articles to sites already known to have them, in particular the site they came from, and additionally to permit tracing the route articles take in moving over the network, and for gathering Usenet statistics. path = "Path:" SP path-list CRLF path-list = [FWS] *( ( path-identity / path-keyword ) [FWS] path-delimiter [FWS] ) tail-entry [FWS] path-identity = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / ":" / "_" ) path-keyword = "POSTED" / "MISMATCH" | tail-entry = ( ALPHA / DIGIT ) | *( ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / ":" / "_" ) [To avoid any suggestion that the <tail-entry> inherits any of the semantic properties of a <path-identity> (see USEPRO). Any other syntax that avoids that problem would do.] path-delimiter = "!" / "!!" Each <path-identity> in the <path-list> (excluding the one in the <tail-entry>) indicates, from right to left, the successive agents through which the article has passed. The <keyword> "POSTED" indicates that the agent to its left injected the article. The use of the <path-delimiter> "!!" indicates that the agent to its left claims that the agent to its right was the verified source of the article (whereas the <path-delimiter> "!" implies no such claim). The <keyword> "MISMATCH" indicates that the agent to its right failed to be so verified. The full procedure for constructing a Path header | as well as the specific format and use of the <path-identity> are | discussed in [USEPRO]. [No need to refer to USEPRO for the <tail-entry>, because the following NOTE contains all that needs to be said.] NOTE: Historically, the <tail-entry> indicated the name of the sender. If not used for this purpose, the string "not-for-mail" is often used instead (since at one time the whole path could be used as a mail address for the sender). NOTE: Although case-insensitive, it is intended that the <path- keyword>s "POSTED" and "MISMATCH" should be in upper case, to distinguish them from the <path-identity>s which are traditionally in lower case. | NOTE: The character ':' is now permitted within a <path-identity> | to facilitate the use of an <IPv6address> therein. [That sentence belongs here, rather than in USEPRO.] In USEPRO 2.1. Defining the Architecture .................... Posting, reading and followup agents (which are usually just different services provided by the same piece of software) are known collectively as "user agents". | Injecting, relaying and serving agents (which are often just | different services provided by the same piece of software) are known | collectively as "news-servers". 2.2. Identification of news-servers | News-servers need to identify themselves, by inserting their <path- | identity>s (F-3.1.6), into Path, Injection-Info and Xref headers. An | injecting agent MUST identify itself with the same <path-identity> in | both Path and Injection-Info headers. To ensure that a <path- | identity> provides a unique identity for the news-server concerned, | it SHOULD be one of: | 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an A record, | which SHOULD identify the actual machine inserting this <path- | identity> and, ideally, should also be "mailable" (see below). | 2. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an MX record, | which MUST be "mailable". | 3. An arbitrary name believed to be unique and registered at least | with all other news-servers receiving articles directly from the | given one. | 4. An encoding of an IP address - <IPv4address> or <IPv6address> [RFC | 3986]. | The FQDN of a news-server is "mailable" if its administrators can be | reached by email using both of the forms "usenet@<FQDN>" and | "news@<FQDN>", in conformity with [RFC 2142]. | For an injecting agent prepending to a Path header (7.2.2), the | <path-identity> MUST be option 1 or 2 and the FQDN MUST be mailable, | and if the agent offers its services to the general public the form | "abuse@<FQDN>" MUST also be available, unless a more specific | complaints address has been provided in a <complainto-param> of an | Injection-Info header (F-3.2.14). For other agents, options 1 | through 3 are to be preferred. 7.2.1. Proto-articles NOTE: An article that is offered for reinjection has, by definition, already been injected once, and is not therefore to be considered as a proto-article. Hence a genuine proto-article | will not contain any Injection-Date header nor any "POSTED" in | its Path header, though that header MAY contain <path-identity>s | corresponding to machines traversed between the posting agent | and the injecting agent proper. 7.2. Duties of an Injecting Agent 10.It MUST then prepend the <path-identity> of the injecting agent, | followed by a '!', the <path-keyword> "POSTED" and a further "!" | (or "!!" if appropriate) to the content of the Path header; this | SHOULD then be followed by CRLF and WSP if it would otherwise | result in a line longer than 79 characters. The prepended | <path-identity> MUST be an FQDN mailable address (F-3.1.6). | NOTE: This could result in more that one "POSTED" <path-keyword> in the case of reinjection. 7.3. Duties of a Relaying Agent 1. It MUST establish the trusted identity of the source of the article and compare it with the leftmost <path-identity> of the Path header's content. If it matches it MUST then prepend its own | <path-identity> and a '!!' <path-delimiter> to that content. If | it does not match then it prepends instead two entries to that | content; firstly the true established <path-identity> of the | source followed by a '!', the <path-keyword> "MISMATCH" and a | further '!', and then, to the left of that, its own <path- | identity> followed by a '!!' <path-delimiter> as usual. This | prepending of two entries SHOULD NOT be done if the provided and | established identities match. All such prepended material SHOULD | be followed by CRLF and WSP if it would otherwise result in a line | longer than 79 characters. 7.3.1. Path-Header Example | Path: foo.isp.example!!foo-server!!bar.isp.example!MISMATCH! | 2001:DB8:0:0:8:800:200C:417A!!old.site.example!barbaz!! | baz.isp.example!POSTED!!dialup123.baz.isp.example!not-for-mail NOTE: That article was injected into the news stream by | baz.isp.example, as indicated ny the <path-keyword> "POSTED" (complaints may be addressed to abuse@baz.isp.example). The | injector has chosen to record that it got it from dialup123.baz.isp.example. "not-for-mail" is a dummy <tail- entry>, though sometimes a real userid is put there. The article was relayed, perhaps by UUCP, to the machine known, at least to old.site.example, as "barbaz". Barbaz relayed it to old.site.example, which does not yet conform to this standard (hence the '!' <path-delimiter). So one cannot be sure that it really came from barbaz. | Old.site.example relayed it to a site claiming to have the IPv6 | address [2001:DB8:0:0:8:800:200C:417A], and claiming (by using | the '!!' <path-delimiter>) to have verified that it came from old.site.example. | [2001:DB8:0:0:8:800:200C:417A] relayed it to "foo-server" which, not being convinced that it truly came from | [2001:DB8:0:0:8:800:200C:417A], inserted the <path-keyword> | "MISMATCH" and then did a reverse lookup on the actual source and concluded it was known as bar.isp.example (that is not to | say that [2001:DB8:0:0:8:800:200C:417A] was not a correct IPv6 address for bar.isp.example, but simply that that connection could not be substantiated by foo-server). Observe that foo- server has now added two entries to the Path. "foo-server" is a locally significant name within the complex site of many machines run by foo.isp.example, so the latter | should have no problem recognizing foo-server and using a '!!' <path-delimiter>. Presumably foo.isp.example then delivered the article to its direct clients. | It appears that foo-server and barbaz decided to fold the line, on the grounds that it seemed to be getting a little too long. And also several minor consequential changes. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Ij9Nt059743 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51Ij9jd059742 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Ij8J2059734 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdY8S-0005jw-FP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:40:12 +0200 Received: from 212.82.251.244 ([212.82.251.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:40:12 +0200 Received: from nobody by 212.82.251.244 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:40:12 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Misc. ABNF nits Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:38:41 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 14 Message-ID: <429E00B1.2028@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <429CC960.3FFD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050531165621.28336A-100000@spsystems.net> <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEKoA.DLq@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> <429DE840.9040401@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.244 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Alexey Melnikov wrote: > How is it different from spoofing Received or From headers? Henry explained that "_" was okay for UUCP hosts names, so my first idea "get rid of it" was dubious. But when we want it for UUCP host names we can't say "MUST be a mailable FQDN". Okay, USEPRO only says that it's a rule for identities _added_ to the path. Maybe I didn't get the idea that USEPRO doesn't cover UUCP (?). It's just a minor potential inconsistency, I was curious about the reasoning behind it. After all the set of characters allowed in a path-identity isn't arbitrary. Bye Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51HSROE053843 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51HSRYX053842 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51HSR9e053833 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51HSL4K037456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far, Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506011025110.24924@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>I don't know if you mean "current standards say", "our draft says", "we >>want to say", or what. > I thought this was sufficiently clear from the original message: Until you asked me about what USEFOR currently says, I thought so too. >I don't see the logic in that. Most of the work of standards is to define >terms to have a meaning *in the context of the standards* that is not >identical to an "intuitive" understanding of what the word means. That's ridiculous. If a term has a common meaning, it is perfectly acceptable for the standards to use those terms in their common meaning. In this case, "reply" has a commonly understood english meaning. I'm doing it right now -- replying to something you wrote. This is a reply. I'm doing it in email, but if I were doing it in news, it would still be a reply, and we would also call it a followup. In news, it would have a References header, and you would have no doubt. >If we can't define a specific meaning for a word like "followup", we have >to invent new words like "froobnitz" every time we want a term with a >specific definition - and I don't see how that aids the clarity of the >standards. Taking a word that is already in current usage and redefining it to be something else certainly does not clarify the standard. People, today, right now, probably within a second or two of when I write this, are using the term "followup" to mean "in response to or as a result of". That part 2 of the FAQ you see today was posted because part 1 was posted. That's "as a result of". If it contains a References header, then you know that the poster intended it as a followup. It doesn't get much clearer than that. It's current practice; let's document it and get on with life. It's a simple change, or would have been had Charles not gone rampant with unilateral changes to what wasn't being discussed. >If you post a reply to my message in news, and don't include a References: >header, I'm perfectly happy with saying that "this is not a followup as >defined in USEFOR". I'd be happier with the truth, which is yes, it is a followup but you cannot detect it as such. I'd be even happier if we can find a justification so you could identify it as such by requiring a References header, but it doesn't look likely that we'll ever find an RFC2119 justification for that mandate anymore, so I'll stick with just documenting existing practice in this area. And "this is a followup as defined in USEFOR" isn't the actual issue you asked about. News "Replies" as found in RFC2822 are "followups" as found in USEFOR, unless you create some really wacky unrealistic definition for "followup" that doesn't match anything seen so far. If your definition includes "in response to", then "replies" posted to news are "followups", and References is optional in those replies, and thus in those followups. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51HPFIS053609 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51HPFUt053608 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51HPECH053581 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org ([69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51HP84K036110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:25:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0506010929590.24924@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@xxxxxxxxxxxx>: >To thread on Subject, doesn't mean that only the value of the >Subject: header is used. Other information that can be used is >the Date and the attributions ... Simply remarkable. If it isn't sorting by the Subject header, then it isn't "sort by Subject", it's "sort by date" or "make stuff up sorting". >Threading on Subject, Does not exist. Subject is a sortable but not threadable header. There is no defined relationship between articles based on the Subject header. Two articles with the identical same subject may or may not be related at all, much less be parent and child. "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@xxxxxxxxxxxx>: >Threading is done that way. By some news reader clients. But I >already said that. No, threading is NOT done that way, by any news reader clients. It's called "sorting by Subject", not threading, because there is NO defined relationship between articles based on the Subject header. It's a guessing game which works sometimes and fails miserably at other times, because there is a sometimes similarity in the Subject headers of related articles and a sometimes similarity in the Subject headers of unrelated articles. And more than one person has already said that. >Some people even like it that >way, so they activate the option in their news client. News reading clients are free to SORT articles any way they please. This does not mean they are threading them. The problem with what you are saying is not that sorting isn't done by some clients that way or that people don't like articles sorted that way, it is that you keep claiming that this is "threading", and it simply ain't so. Eivind is right. Listen to him. Richard Clayton <richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >apologies, I was imprecise I meant "attempt to locate specific thread >using Subject (fuzzy matching as needed) and place into position using >other clues such as Date" You're still only almost right. To locate a SPECIFIC thread you need a References header. You cannot differentiate between threads by using the Subject header, since the Subject header has no defined relationship to a thread, and certainly not a specific thread. Using the References header, you do not have to guess using "other clues", you have an explicit statement as to the parental relationships of articles. A begat B begat C begat D ... > I think it is :) I like threads. First of all, you liking "threads" doesn't make them necessary. And second, sorting by Subject has nothing to do with threads, so please stop pretending that it does. And third, this issue of the References header has nothing at all to do with sorting by Subject, so stop worrying. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GsPqY051164 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51GsPS5051163 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GsOoZ051154 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.175] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (internal) with ESMTPA; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:54:22 +0100 Message-ID: <429DE840.9040401@isode.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:54:24 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov-usefor@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Misc. ABNF nits References: <429CC960.3FFD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050531165621.28336A-100000@spsystems.net> <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEKoA.DLq@clerew.man.ac.uk> <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Frank Ellermann wrote: >Charles Lindsey wrote: > > >>So what is your problem? >> >> > >Attackers could try to hide behind a foo_bar.example.com >path identity, because it doesn't work as an abuse@ FQDN > > How is it different from spoofing Received or From headers? Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Gj4P6050527 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51Gj43n050526 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51Gj3XW050517 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:45:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdWES-0005mi-37 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:38:16 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:38:15 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:38:15 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: Re: Misc. ABNF nits Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:39:59 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 7 Message-ID: <429DE4DF.25F0@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <429CC960.3FFD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050531165621.28336A-100000@spsystems.net> <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEKoA.DLq@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: > So what is your problem? Attackers could try to hide behind a foo_bar.example.com path identity, because it doesn't work as an abuse@ FQDN Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GWY5c049507 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51GWYOo049506 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GWWRg049491 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DdW58-0004Rw-Je for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:28:39 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:28:38 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:28:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> Subject: encoded words in an obs-phrase (was: Differences between RFC 2822 and Usefor) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:23:46 +0200 Organization: <URL:http://purl.net/xyzzy> Lines: 52 Message-ID: <429DE112.2131@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <4299F711.3415@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHB279.oI@clerew.man.ac.uk> <7720B187EEDCD0754BC8E464@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <429CD378.25B@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHEJwJ.D1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K._Moore?= , =?utf-8?Q?Jonathan_(Jon)_Postel?= X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-52.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Charles Lindsey wrote: >> display-name = word *(word / "." / CFWS) >> This syntax would still disallow obscene keywords. > If we are going to put it into USEFOR (and I think we > should), then it may as well go into Keywords too. It is > clearly allowed in Keywords in RFC 2822 Only by a very obs-cure rule, hiding itself as obs-olete, and I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with RfC 2047: Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?K._Moore?= That's illegal, see 2047 5.3. Dito for a <display-name>. Normally you can split a phrase without quoted-string at any word boundary and replace one or more words by an QP encoded-word. This obsure RfC 2822 rule messses with specials, STD 11, RfC 2047, and s-o-1036. And what about the CFWS in obs-phrase ? If we'd say... phrase = word *(word / "." / CFWS) ...simple RfC 2047 strategies also fail for the comments: Keywords: =?utf-8?Q?Jonathan_(Jon)_Postel?= Okay, that's kind of obvious, RfC 2047 only promises that you can encode word(s) in a phrase, and "(Jon)" is no word. Nevertheless, I don't like it. For the same reasons why I don't like RfC 2231: MIME is supposed to be simple, robust, and compatible. Any screw after 2049, and it's screwed up. > come to think of it, I am not aware of any regular news > software that looks at Keywords at all Certainly not my UA, unless I enable its "spam analysis" aka "show headers - all". It's much less important than X-Face, and we decided against specifying X-Face... ;-) > Anyone see any problems with it? Yes, wasting more than one word about it in USEFOR is a waste of bandwidth and therefore net abuse. <eg> Bye, Frank Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GDVop048216 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51GDVaM048215 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51GDTuO048209 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-69.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.69]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429ddea8.7ceb.1ea for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:13:28 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j51GC9F18306 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:12:09 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20978 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Misc. ABNF nits Message-ID: <IHEKoA.DLq@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <429CC960.3FFD@xyzzy.claranet.de> <Pine.BSI.3.91.1050531165621.28336A-100000@spsystems.net> <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:16:57 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429CDAD9.3009@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Henry Spencer wrote: > >> Underscores were indeed in use in UUCP names... but there has >> also been some use of them in domain names, even though it is >> technically against the rules. >Only for "mailable FQDN". Maybe the real problem is the MUST >in USEPRO and not the underline in USEFOR ? I like this MUST, >but if we allow "unmailable" underlines we need a SHOULD. I copmpletely fail to understand what you are complaining about. In the Path header, you find <path-identity>s. A <path-indentity> can be made up of any sequence of letters, digits, '-', '.', ':' and '_' (except that it must begin with a letter or a digit). Any arbitrary sequence will do, though some sequences are preferred to others, and there is a specific REQUIREMENT for the <path-identity> inserted by the injecting agent. Some <path-identity>s will be in the form of a domain-name; some won't. Those that are will clearly not include either of the characters ':' or '_'. So what? That is no reason to forbid those characters in the other cases. So what is your problem? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51E23Ec036637 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51E23Kd036636 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:02:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51E21JI036630 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DdTms-000GlN-0u; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:01:52 +0000 Message-ID: <I+AR5nMw9bnCFAow@highwayman.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:00:16 +0100 To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton <richard@highwayman.com> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M <zZ$$+z3$77$$tPKL26Y+dershQ> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org>, John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> writes >Richard Clayton <richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > >>I suspect (guessing here of course) that most of the people who went for >>#2 would agree that readers often thread on Subject since that's the >>reality -- but we'd all (another guess) would like to make it far less >>necessary to do so > >There is never a necessity to sort by Subject (not "thread", since Subject >isn't a threadable header.). apologies, I was imprecise I meant "attempt to locate specific thread using Subject (fuzzy matching as needed) and place into position using other clues such as Date" >If it isn't ever necessary, I think it is :) I like threads. So do almost all the people who use the software I designed. That's quite a few. >we cannot make it >"far less necessary". - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQp2/cJoAxkTY1oPiEQL/rACfY96DEiuduegNnm1aug6cnBLb8msAoP8R +UquGN6gcP+DkThW1ctNHyrc =jpjM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51BEraS085516 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51BErSC085514 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51BEpTf085495 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-88.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.88]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429d98aa.170b4.4d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:14:50 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j51BCEK17020 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20977 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Differences between RFC 2822 and Usefor Message-ID: <IHEJwJ.D1E@clerew.man.ac.uk> Keywords: is . considered harmful X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <4299F711.3415@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHB279.oI@clerew.man.ac.uk> <7720B187EEDCD0754BC8E464@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <429CD378.25B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:00:19 GMT Lines: 35 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <429CD378.25B@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de> writes: >Hiding this in "miscellaneous obsolete tokens" in the chapter >"obsolete syntax" is more odd than dangerous. No showstopper >for USEFOR, we could just redefine the RfC 2822 display-name: >{2822] >| display-name = phrase >| phrase = 1*word / obs-phrase >| obs-phrase = word *(word / "." / CFWS) >[USEFOR] > display-name = word *(word / "." / CFWS) >This syntax would still disallow obscene keywords. If we are going to put it into USEFOR (and I think we should), then it may as well go into Keywords too. It is clearly allowed in Keywords in RFC 2822, and I am not aware of any news software that will break if we allow it too (come to think of it, I am not aware of any regular news software that looks at Keywords at all). For good measure, I have included such a Keywords header in this message. Anyone see any problems with it? -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51BErSS085517 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j51BErBN085515 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j51BEqDF085499 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 04:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-77-88.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.77.88]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.183) id 429d98ab.170b4.4e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:14:51 +0100 (envelope-sender <news@clerew.man.ac.uk>) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j51BCDo17014 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:20976 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles H. Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Differences between RFC 2822 and Usefor Message-ID: <IHEJJC.CzI@clerew.man.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <IEp3L6.MwB@clerew.man.ac.uk> <4299F711.3415@xyzzy.claranet.de> <IHB279.oI@clerew.man.ac.uk> <7720B187EEDCD0754BC8E464@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:52:24 GMT Lines: 72 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> In <7720B187EEDCD0754BC8E464@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> writes: >--On 30. mai 2005 13:45 +0000 Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> It was a newly introduced "feature" of RFC 2822, on a MUST accept but do >> not generate yet basis. It is widely agreed that calling it "obs-" was a >> mistake, because it was very much intended for future use. Many agents >> accept it already. Bruce Lilly asked us to put it in (and for once he was >> right). >hey - where did that come from?????? It was hidden away in a section entitled "Obsolete Syntax", and so a lot of people (myself included) never spotted it. There was some discussion on the ietf-822 list around 12 months ago, involving Bruce Lilly, Pete Resnick and others, in which all (Pete included) agreed that hiding it there was a mistake, and that it ought to be brought out and called <extended-phrase> if and when a 2822bis happened. >the text in RFC 2822 section 4.1 is: >> Note: The "period" (or "full stop") character (".") in obs-phrase is >> not a form that was allowed in earlier versions of this or any other >> standard. Period (nor any other character from specials) was not >> allowed in phrase because it introduced a parsing difficulty >> distinguishing between phrases and portions of an addr-spec (see >> section 4.4). It appears here because the period character is >> currently used in many messages in the display-name portion of >> addresses, especially for initials in names, and therefore must be >> interpreted properly. In the future, period may appear in the >> regular syntax of phrase. >The way I remember the discussions (after 4-10 years, I'm not that sure any >more...), people observed that this period was used quite widely, so >parsers that refused to handle it were not terribly useful, but the WG >refused to recommend it as part of existing syntax. But clearly recommended it as part of the MUST accept syntax. The wording above is a classic example of "Here is a mew feature; compliant software MUST accept it now, but it MUST/SHOULD/whatever NOT be generated yet" (for some value of "yet", which apparently included regularizing it in a future standard). Actually, I doubt any current email software refuses to tramsit and display such a thing once it get onto the wire. I could well believe that some software might be confused if asked to reply to a From: header with it in (I have tried it in this message, as you will see - feel free to try to reply to it). Anyway, for News, Bruce Lilly pointed out some years ago that we should adopt this new "feature", and it duly went into our draft (but entitled <extended-phrase>). It does not seem to have made it into USEFOR yet, but I think it should. >Illustrates the danger of future-looking statements in standards that we're >arguing based on this text 4 years later..... It illustrates the danger of putting important things in places where nobody will notice them :-( . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j519v7Dk057330 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j519v7CN057329 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:57:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.35]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j519v55L057305 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j519uwoe020358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:57:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <060201c56690$4259c3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:56:52 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Eivind Tagseth: > Ruud H.G. van Tol: >> Eivind Tagseth: >>> Ruud H.G. van Tol: >>>> Threading on Subject, is also used to explain why some users see a >>>> new thread when others don't. In that case the change in Subject >>>> overrules the References. >>> The subject never overrules the References header. >> I just mentioned when it does. Some people even like it that >> way, so they activate the option in their news client. Some >> news clients even came with that option activated. There may >> even be news clients that do it and that can not be told not >> to do it. > It still doesn't overrule the References header. Aaargh. The particular news reader shows two threads where the References header represents one. You just chose another interpretation of 'overrules' than the one I wrote about, and then say that it doesn't. Let's please leave it at that. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j518TKwZ028441 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j518TKLu028440 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxfw3.q-free.com (mxfw3.q-free.com [62.92.116.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j518TGXr028408 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from hurricane.q-free.com ([192.168.4.14]) by mxfw3.q-free.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.2) with SMTP id M2005060110265511382 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:26:55 +0200 Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (h192-168-2-54.q-free.com [192.168.2.54] (may be forged)) by hurricane.q-free.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j518TE3F025375 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:29:14 +0200 Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:27:02 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:27:02 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <20050601082702.GB30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Ruud H.G. van Tol <rvtol@isolution.nl> [2005-06-01 10:14:59 +0200]: > Eivind Tagseth: > > Ruud H.G. van Tol: > >> Threading on Subject, is also used to explain why some users see a > >> new thread when others don't. In that case the change in Subject > >> overrules the References. > > > The subject never overrules the References header. > > I just mentioned when it does. Some people even like it that > way, so they activate the option in their news client. Some > news clients even came with that option activated. There may > even be news clients that do it and that can not be told not > to do it. It still doesn't overrule the References header. This is why it is important to describe the References header for what it _means_ not how some people expect news readers to _display_ it. The references header describes the parental relation between the article and it's precursors, the subject header can never override this. A followup agent has to obey some rules when following up to an article with a references header, the subject header can never override this. If a followup agent ignores the references header when creating a followup just because the subject has changed, it would be broken. If a newsreader chooses to display an article with a references header as a new thread, just because the subject was different than it's parent, then it is free to do so, since the references header shouldn't put requirements on how newsreaders should display it's meaning to the user. Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j518FFai023658 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j518FFwv023657 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:15:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.21]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j518FDAR023638 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Received: from isop10 (velvet.isolution.nl [194.109.164.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr1.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j518F6ko013532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:15:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rvtol@isolution.nl) Message-ID: <046e01c56682$079eb3b0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> From: "Ruud H.G. van Tol" <rvtol@isolution.nl> To: <ietf-usefor@imc.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:14:59 +0200 Organization: Chaos rules. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> Eivind Tagseth: > Ruud H.G. van Tol: >> John Stanley: >>> There is never a necessity to sort by Subject (not "thread", since >>> Subject isn't a threadable header.). If it isn't ever necessary, we >>> cannot make it "far less necessary". >> To thread on Subject, doesn't mean that only the value of the >> Subject: header is used. Other information that can be used is >> the Date and the attributions (and further whatever the author >> of the news client chooses as feasible). > That's not threading, that's guessing. Threading is done that way. By some news reader clients. But I already said that. I didn't say that I like it. >> Threading on Subject, is also used to explain why some users see a >> new thread when others don't. In that case the change in Subject >> overrules the References. > The subject never overrules the References header. I just mentioned when it does. Some people even like it that way, so they activate the option in their news client. Some news clients even came with that option activated. There may even be news clients that do it and that can not be told not to do it. -- Grtz, Ruud Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j517OKoM005400 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j517OKIi005399 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxfw3.q-free.com (mxfw3.q-free.com [62.92.116.8]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j517OHq9005353 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivindt@multinet.no) Received: from hurricane.q-free.com ([192.168.4.14]) by mxfw3.q-free.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.2) with SMTP id M2005060109215321914 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:21:53 +0200 Received: from tagseth-trd.consultit.no (h192-168-2-54.q-free.com [192.168.2.54] (may be forged)) by hurricane.q-free.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id j517OA3F023399 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:24:13 +0200 Received: by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:21:59 +0200 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:21:58 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no> To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <20050601072158.GA30235@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Mail-Followup-To: Eivind Tagseth <eivindt@multinet.no>, ietf-usefor@imc.org References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <03d001c56672$27a755f0$0b01a8c0@isolution.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> * Ruud H.G. van Tol <rvtol@isolution.nl> [2005-06-01 08:21:23 +0200]: > John Stanley: > > There is never a necessity to sort by Subject (not "thread", since > > Subject isn't a threadable header.). If it isn't ever necessary, we > > cannot make it "far less necessary". > > To thread on Subject, doesn't mean that only the value of the > Subject: header is used. Other information that can be used is > the Date and the attributions (and further whatever the author > of the news client chooses as feasible). That's not threading, that's guessing. > Threading on Subject, is also used to explain why some users see a > new thread when others don't. In that case the change in Subject > overrules the References. The subject never overrules the References header. The newsreader may be set up to show subthreads with a Subject change as if they were a new thread, but that doesn't change the information the References header is conveying, and it doesn't change how the references header should be treaded when following up to an article in the subthread. Eivind Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j517MnKW004833 for <ietf-usefor-skb@above.proper.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j517Mnwq004832 for ietf-usefor-skb; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j517MmVA004801 for <ietf-usefor@imc.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1F761B58; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:22:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16107-07; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:22:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9450B61AF1; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:22:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:22:41 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> To: John Stanley <stanley@peak.org>, ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1008 USEFOR 1.5 "followup": summary so far Message-ID: <4180B2E9AFD992E31E0506C2@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> References: <Pine.LNX.4.53.0505310834320.6575@a.shell.peak.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-usefor-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> List-ID: <ietf-usefor.imc.org> --On tirsdag, mai 31, 2005 11:25:58 -0700 John Stanley <stanley@peak.org> wrote: > What is really confusing about your mixmaster approach to this is that > when you say: > > 1) All "followups" have a References: header. > > I don't know if you mean "current standards say", "our draft says", "we > want to say", or what. I thought this was sufficiently clear from the original message: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Subject: USEFOR 1.5: relation between a followup and a References: header? > > USEFOR version -04 states: > > A "followup" is an article containing a response to the contents of > an earlier article (the followup's "precursor" indicated in the > "References" header). > > Discussion has revealed two possibilities: > - All "followup"s (as defined here) have a References: header. > - There can be articles that are a "followup" that do not have > "References:" headers > > The other half of the problem is whether there can be articles that > have References: headers which are not "followups". > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'd like to have the 11 or so people who have spoken up on the issue (and > anyone who cares to speak up otherwise) identify themselves as having one > of four positions on what USEFOR should say about this issue: I'm only talking about what USEFOR should say. This group's mandate is (among other things) getting USEFOR out the door. We can't change what people are currently doing, we can't change what other standards say - but we CAN change what USEFOR says. As to your comment: > As for RFC2822 not using the specific term "followup": been there, covered > that. It uses the generic term "replies". Every reply posted as news is a > "followup". Every one. Each time someone replies, in a news context, they > are posting an article that is "a response to another". If you can find a > single person here who would call an article I post, in response to > another, which says "you are wrong when you say X because..." NOT a > followup, please trot them out. I don't believe they exist. And if they > think it is not a reply, then they are clearly deluded. I don't see the logic in that. Most of the work of standards is to define terms to have a meaning *in the context of the standards* that is not identical to an "intuitive" understanding of what the word means. If we can't define a specific meaning for a word like "followup", we have to invent new words like "froobnitz" every time we want a term with a specific definition - and I don't see how that aids the clarity of the standards. If you post a reply to my message in news, and don't include a References: header, I'm perfectly happy with saying that "this is not a followup as defined in USEFOR". If that's the consensus position of the group. Harald
- #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments b… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should comments b… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Russ Allbery
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Bruce Lilly
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Bruce Lilly
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Bruce Lilly
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Forrest J. Cavalier III
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Forrest J. Cavalier III
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Typo (was: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Charles Lindsey
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Frank Ellermann
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Ruud H.G. van Tol
- Re: #1029: USEFOR 3.2.2 References: Should commen… Charles Lindsey