Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt

[Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]>]

I don't recall saying that, to be honest.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 03-Jul-19 23:03, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been too busy to tackle a new version of this document, but now working on it.
> 
> My recall on this, please correct me if I'm wrong (Brian, Mudric), is that you believe that:
> 
> 1) We should define end-site in the document?
> 
> 2) End-sites must be able to request a longer prefix if needed and the ISP must grant it?
> 
> Anything I may be missing?
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>  
>  
> 
> El 28/8/18 6:27, "v6ops en nombre de Brian E Carpenter" <[e-mail] en nombre de [e-mail]> escribió:
> 
>     On 2018-08-28 06:23, Mudric, Dusan (Dusan) wrote:
>     > Section 4.
>     > "   b.  An end-user should be able to receive any prefix length up to /48
>     >        simply by asking."
>     > 
>     > Can  this be defined in a way to make sure that new applications and devices will always work at end sites without a need for asking ISPs for extra address space? Otherwise, the end-user might not get what he/she asks for, without paying for the "higher grade" service. Can the definition impose up to /48 LAP when needed at end sites? For example, can an application request a home router to request an ISP for /48 prefix and, when requested, ISP must grant it?
>     
>     Unfortunately we can never say "must" in this context. What ISPs will provide
>     for what fee is well outside the IETF's competence. As observed on another
>     thread, applications need to be agile, even if they work better if such a
>     request was granted.
>     
>     I'd say that once this update is done, it may be time to revisit
>     RFC4084.
>     
>     Regards
>         Brian
>     
>     > 
>     > Regards,
>     > Dusan Mudric.
>     > 
>     >> -----Original Message-----
>     >> From: v6ops <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Lea Roberts
>     >> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 2:08 PM
>     >> To: Brian E Carpenter <[e-mail]>; JORDI PALET
>     >> MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=[e-mail]>
>     >> Cc: [e-mail]; IPv6 Operations
>     >> <[e-mail]>
>     >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
>     >>
>     >> hi Brian and Jordi -
>     >>
>     >> excellent comments and I agree also.
>     >>
>     >> thank you!!
>     >> /Lea
>     >>
>     >> On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>     >>
>     >>> Hi Brian,
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Thanks a lot for commenting and sorry the late answer ... too busy last
>     >> weeks.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Comments in-line below (subjected to my co-author agreement), basically,
>     >> agree with all your inputs, except a couple of points.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Thanks!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Regards,
>     >>>
>     >>> Jordi
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> -----Mensaje original-----
>     >>>
>     >>> De: v6ops <[e-mail]> en nombre de Brian E Carpenter
>     >> <[e-mail]>
>     >>>
>     >>> Organizaci?n: University of Auckland
>     >>>
>     >>> Fecha: domingo, 8 de julio de 2018, 17:43
>     >>>
>     >>> Para: <[e-mail]>, IPv6 Operations
>     >> <[e-mail]>
>     >>>
>     >>> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Hi,
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Thanks for this draft.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > Abstract
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    This needs to be shorter. Three paragraphs is too much.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> For the next version, I've reduced 50% the length of the 1st paragraph. 3rd
>     >> paragraph, I recall is mandatory (IDNits).
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
>     >>>
>     >>>    > no longer appropriate unless the recipient explicitly agrees to the
>     >>>
>     >>>    > limitations implied by such an assignment.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I *strongly* suggest deleting the "unless" clause. It leaves a
>     >>>
>     >>>    loophole, and it could easily be hidden in shrink-wrap terms
>     >>>
>     >>>    and conditions so that a subscriber would agree without even
>     >>>
>     >>>    knowing about it. Reduce this simply to:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>       ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
>     >>>
>     >>>       never appropriate.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed and done.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 1.  Introduction
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        may be some cases where assigning only a single address may be
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        justified, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        multiple devices.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I find this a bit weak. Try:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>       1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
>     >>>
>     >>>           may be some applications where assigning only a single address may
>     >> be
>     >>>
>     >>>           tolerated, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
>     >>>
>     >>>           multiple devices. Also, a /128 prevents any form of privacy-based
>     >>>
>     >>>           addressing.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    4.  This revision has been created to more clearly assert the
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        requirement to ensure that address assignments to end-sites
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        provide a sufficiently big number of subnets (/64 on classic
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        networks) to each end-site, taking under consideration the end-
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        site's future expected needs, new deployment expectations and
>     >> new
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        protocol requirements, among others.  Once all these are
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        considered, it seems unlikely that a single subnet (/64) or even
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        a small number of them should be assigned, unless very clearly
>     >>>
>     >>>    >        justified and agreed to by the end-site.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    The "unless" clause is dangerous because of shrink-wrap terms and
>     >>>
>     >>>    conditions. I suggest deleting it.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 2.  Considerations Regarding the Prefix Length
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    This consideration should be noticed, across this document, in the
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    sense that end-sites usually have subnets that use, by default,
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    SLAAC, and consequently, the LAP is mandatorily a /64.  Other
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    technologies, may have a different LAP, which must be used
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    accordingly.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I suggest s/Other/Future/ since /64 prevails everywhere today.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 3.  On /48 Assignments to End-Sites
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    An important
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    goal in IPv6 is to significantly change the default and minimal end
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    site assignment, from "a single address" to "multiple networks" and
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    to ensure that end-sites can easily obtain address space.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I suggest adding something like this:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    As the operational costs of carrier-grade NAT and address+port sharing
>     >>>
>     >>>    have shown, availability of multiple addresses and prefixes to end sites
>     >>>
>     >>>    that need them will be a considerable saving to their ISPs.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    It might be tempting to give home sites a single /64, since that is
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    already significantly more address space compared with today's IPv4
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    practice.  However, this precludes the expectation that even home
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    sites will grow to support multiple subnets going forward.  Hence, it
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    s/expectation/certainty/
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    A key goal of the recommendations in [RFC3177] is to
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    ensure that upon renumbering, one does not have to deal with
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    renumbering into a smaller subnet size.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Perhaps add:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    In particular this would apply to any site that switches to
>     >>>
>     >>>    an ISP that provides a longer prefix.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    It should be noted that similar arguments apply to the management of
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    zone files in the DNS.  In particular, managing the reverse
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    (ip6.arpa) tree is simplified when all links are numbered using the
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    same subnet ids
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    s/numbered/renumbered/
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    years, and we don't recover back the /48's, we will be able to use
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    IPv6 addressing space for over 100.000 years.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Perhaps add:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    This document does not advocate careless use of address space, but
>     >>>
>     >>>    there is objectively no reason to be restrictve.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    ....
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    Today typically, a home has already a considerable number of possible
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    subnets (a common CE has 4 LAN ports, 2 WiFi radios which support
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    several SSIDs each one, VoIP subnet, IPTV subnet, additional VLANs)
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    and if downstream routers are used, there is a need for further
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    subnets.  This means that in a short term, assigning a /60 (16
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    subnets), it is already a really bad decision, as it may enforce IPv6
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    NAT between the main CE and downstream routers.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I suggest deleting "as it may enforce IPv6 NAT between the main CE and
>     >>>
>     >>>    downstream routers". Firstly it puts NAT into the reader's mind. Secondly,
>     >>>
>     >>>    it isn't the only solution - IIDs shorter than 64 could also be implemented.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 4.  Impact on IPv6 Standards
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    I propose to simply delete this section.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Firstly, RFC3056 is deprecated so it's irrelevant today.
>     >>>
>     >>>    Secondly, the argument about ULAs (RFC4193) doesn't hold up.
>     >>>
>     >>>    ULAs are like any other /48 prefix - if you are forced to
>     >>>
>     >>>    renumber into a longer prefix, you lose some subnet bits.
>     >>>
>     >>>    That is already covered in the middle of section 3 (the
>     >>>
>     >>>    "key goal" sentence quoted above).
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I recall we deprecated the 6to4 anycast, but not 6to4, in fact 6to4 to 6to4
>     >> traffic is still useful for peer to peer.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 6.  Security Considerations
>     >>>
>     >>>    >
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    This document has no known security implications.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Really? More prefix space offers more potential for scanning
>     >>>
>     >>>    attacks. More prefix space also allows the use of slightly
>     >>>
>     >>>    randomized prefixes and/or prefix-per host.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Also of course, a /128 would prevent any form of privacy-based
>     >>>
>     >>>    addressing.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> I've introduced new text on those points.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    > 8.  Acknowledgements
>     >>>
>     >>>    >
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    The authors of this document will like to acknowledge the authors of
>     >>>
>     >>>    >    previous versions (Thomas Narten and Geoff Huston)
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    RFC3177 was signed by the whole IAB and IESG seated in 2001, and its
>     >>>
>     >>>    Acknowledgements read:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    This document originated from the IETF IPv6 directorate, with much
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    input from the IAB and IESG.  The original text forming the basis of
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    this document was contributed by Fred Baker and Brian Carpenter.
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    Allison Mankin and Thomas Narten merged the original contributions
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    into a single document, and Alain Durand edited the document
>     >> through
>     >>>
>     >>>    >>    its final stages.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> Agreed!
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    Regards
>     >>>
>     >>>        Brian
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>    _______________________________________________
>     >>>
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