Re: Fwd: W3C/IETF coordination call 13 March, HTML 5 get-together ~25 March
Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org> Tue, 03 March 2009 02:15 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:16:31 -0600
From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
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To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: W3C/IETF coordination call 13 March, HTML 5 get-together ~25 March
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Mark Nottingham wrote: > AIUI we're not in the habit of publicising our agenda or pre-announcing > calls on the public list; from my archives, only minutes go there. Right... I'm happy to tell Art that we take agenda input from public-ietf-w3c but we don't typically publish the agenda ahead of time. > I'm happy to change this practice, but it seems like we should have a > discussion of it first. Oops; I guess I jumped the gun a little. I thought I saw the date in the (public) ESW wiki was that before or after I sent my message... ok... right... before. > > Thoughts? > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com> >> Date: 3 March 2009 3:31:03 AM >> To: ext Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> >> Cc: public-ietf-w3c <public-ietf-w3c@w3.org> >> Subject: Re: W3C/IETF coordination call 13 March, HTML 5 get-together >> ~25 March >> >> Dan, Mark - where is the agenda for this call? -Thanks, Art Barstow >> >> On Feb 24, 2009, at 1:20 PM, ext Dan Connolly wrote: >> >>> FYI... The next W3C/IETF liaison teleconference is scheduled >>> for 13 March. Mark Nottingham is chairing this time. >>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison >>> >>> I chaired the previous one: >>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2009Jan/0003.html >>> >>> And supplementary to IETF 75 near SFO an HTML 5 related get-together >>> is brewing. >>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 >>> > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ -- Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ From mnot@mnot.net Tue Mar 3 18:23:28 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241453A6846 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:23:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.357, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xCojZaSdJxY for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A163A6804 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (unknown [118.208.254.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 82F5BD0503; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 21:23:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <EA465BA3-1E67-4636-A186-F1F9A1282685@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:23:49 +1100 References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:23:28 -0000 On 26/02/2009, at 12:50 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: Agenda: 0) select scribe 1) review action items DONE: mnot to draft wiki page on IETF/W3C liaison ACTION: mnot to propose times for 3/13, 5/14, 7/16 liaison calls ACTION: plh to contact MDW about liaison response to IETF DONE: plh to inform Arun of March 2 deadline, encourage quick I-D =20= submission for Origin proposal 2) GeoPriv liaison statement response 3) Quick list of new work at IETF74 -- MMOX, OAUTH bofs in particular =20= [Lisa] 4) IETF/HTML5 meeting = <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009=20 > [Sam] 5) VOICEXML use of POST = <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml-04=20 > [Lisa / Francois Daoust] 6) draft-abarth-origin = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-origin/=20 > 7) draft-abarth-mime-sniff = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-mime-sniff/=20 > 8) draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol/=20 > Call details: Friday, 13 March 17:00-18:00 UTC (1:00pm-2:00pm Boston local) = <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3D03&day=3D13&= year=3D2009&hour=3D17&min=3D00&sec=3D0&p1=3D0=20 > Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200 <tel:+1.617.761.6200>, conference 4383 =20 (=93IETF=94) 10 participants IRC: irc.w3.org, port 6665 #ietf Expected: Lisa, Mark, Philippe, DanC, John, Francois Daoust, Sam Ruby Regrets: TimBL -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/= From plh@w3.org Wed Mar 4 11:43:44 2009 Return-Path: <plh@w3.org> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D7D3A6819 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PgdQmrXOlCOG for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09473A698D for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8304EF32; Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:44:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda) From: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <EA465BA3-1E67-4636-A186-F1F9A1282685@mnot.net> References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <EA465BA3-1E67-4636-A186-F1F9A1282685@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: World Wide Web Consortium Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:44:11 -0500 Message-Id: <1236195851.3257.20.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:43:44 -0000 Some corrections. On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 13:23 +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 26/02/2009, at 12:50 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Agenda: > 0) select scribe > 1) review action items > DONE: mnot to draft wiki page on IETF/W3C liaison > ACTION: mnot to propose times for 3/13, 5/14, 7/16 liaison calls > ACTION: plh to contact MDW about liaison response to IETF > DONE: plh to inform Arun of March 2 deadline, encourage quick I-D > submission for Origin proposal > 2) GeoPriv liaison statement response I invited Matt Womer as well to join us. Matt worked with the Chairs of the geolocation group to find out what happened there. Matt and I did the forensic analysis and I expect to have an official response from W3C before the call btw. > 3) Quick list of new work at IETF74 -- MMOX, OAUTH bofs in particular > [Lisa] > 4) IETF/HTML5 meeting <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 > > [Sam] > 5) VOICEXML use of POST <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml-04 > > [Lisa / Francois Daoust] Not sure why Francois's name appears here. Francois will join us for the HTTP header fields X-* discussion, which doesn't seem to be scheduled however. Since Francois will join us from France, is it possible to put his discussion earlier in the agenda? Regarding vxml, do you have a pointer for the discussion abour the vxml issue so I can try to get prepared for it? > 6) draft-abarth-origin <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-origin/ > > > 7) draft-abarth-mime-sniff <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-mime-sniff/ > > > 8) draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol/ > > Philippe From mnot@mnot.net Thu Mar 5 00:59:34 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322B53A68B5 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.162 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.162 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.562, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ngKNs-2eKNR for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B173A67DB for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (unknown [118.208.139.40]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3C5123E3EB; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:59:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <A0E833E7-D84B-40BA-99E6-5F30E748AF3D@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <1236195851.3257.20.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:59:52 +1100 References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <EA465BA3-1E67-4636-A186-F1F9A1282685@mnot.net> <1236195851.3257.20.camel@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:59:34 -0000 Thanks, Philippe. I'll send out a revised agenda in a moment. Regarding vxml - Lisa had some questions about an I-D and VoiceXML's use of POST; see <https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml/comment/92177/ >. Cheers, On 05/03/2009, at 6:44 AM, Philippe Le Hegaret wrote: > Some corrections. > > On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 13:23 +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> On 26/02/2009, at 12:50 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> Agenda: >> 0) select scribe >> 1) review action items >> DONE: mnot to draft wiki page on IETF/W3C liaison >> ACTION: mnot to propose times for 3/13, 5/14, 7/16 liaison calls >> ACTION: plh to contact MDW about liaison response to IETF >> DONE: plh to inform Arun of March 2 deadline, encourage quick I-D >> submission for Origin proposal >> 2) GeoPriv liaison statement response > > I invited Matt Womer as well to join us. Matt worked with the Chairs > of > the geolocation group to find out what happened there. Matt and I did > the forensic analysis and I expect to have an official response from > W3C > before the call btw. > >> 3) Quick list of new work at IETF74 -- MMOX, OAUTH bofs in particular >> [Lisa] >> 4) IETF/HTML5 meeting <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 >>> [Sam] >> 5) VOICEXML use of POST <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml-04 >>> [Lisa / Francois Daoust] > > Not sure why Francois's name appears here. Francois will join us for > the > HTTP header fields X-* discussion, which doesn't seem to be scheduled > however. Since Francois will join us from France, is it possible to > put > his discussion earlier in the agenda? > > Regarding vxml, do you have a pointer for the discussion abour the > vxml > issue so I can try to get prepared for it? > >> 6) draft-abarth-origin <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-origin/ >>> >> 7) draft-abarth-mime-sniff <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-mime-sniff/ >>> >> 8) draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol/ >>> > > Philippe > > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From mnot@mnot.net Thu Mar 5 01:01:26 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303F93A68B5 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.389, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC8U0KURSkfK for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DEE28C1AF for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (unknown [118.208.139.40]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B716523E3AB; Thu, 5 Mar 2009 04:01:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:01:49 +1100 References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:01:26 -0000 Agenda: 0) select scribe 1) review action items DONE: mnot to draft wiki page on IETF/W3C liaison ACTION: mnot to propose times for 3/13 [DONE], 5/14, 7/16 liaison =20 calls DONE: plh to contact MDW about liaison response to IETF DONE: plh to inform Arun of March 2 deadline, encourage quick I-D =20 submission for Origin proposal 2) W3C Content Transformation Proxies guidelines [Francois Daoust] <http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c97cd0$f6bd1b40$7a9eca3e@AREPPIM002> 3) Review wiki page <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison> 4) GeoPriv liaison statement response [Matt Womer] <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/486/> 5) Quick list of new work at IETF74 -- MMOX, OAUTH bofs in =20 particular [Lisa] <http://www.ietf.org/meetings/74/> 6) IETF/HTML5 meeting [Sam] <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009> 7) VOICEXML use of POST [Lisa] <https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml/> 8) draft-abarth-origin = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-origin/=20 > 9) draft-abarth-mime-sniff = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-mime-sniff/=20 > 10) draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol/=20 > Call details: Friday, 13 March 17:00-18:00 UTC (1:00pm-2:00pm Boston local) = <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3D03&day=3D13&= year=3D2009&hour=3D17&min=3D00&sec=3D0&p1=3D0=20 > Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200 <tel:+1.617.761.6200>, conference 4383 =20 (=93IETF=94) 10 participants IRC: irc.w3.org, port 6665 #ietf Expected: Lisa, Mark, Philippe, DanC, John, Francois Daoust, Sam Ruby, Matt Womer Regrets: TimBL -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/= From klensin@jck.com Fri Mar 13 09:52:42 2009 Return-Path: <klensin@jck.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD67928C1F2 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhg2VX-FhxRv for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021BA28C1D6 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1LiAdJ-000Bua-TB; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:53:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:53:17 -0400 From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "W3C/IETF" <w3c-policy@ietf.org> Subject: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) (was: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda)) Message-ID: <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:52:42 -0000 Hi. This is far too late to get on today's agenda in any useful way (and I wouldn't have time to prepare coherent comments if there were) but, as a heads up... The issue of the role of non-ASCII strings in URL/URI contexts has arisen again in the IDNABIS WG in the context of transition issues if non-ASCII UTF-8 strings (or the equivalent) are used in URIs, either directly or in %-encoded form. The issues have arisen primarily in the context of the effort in the current spec to reduce or eliminate the many mappings called for by IDNA2003 (the current version). That effort is motivated by the increased fragility of the characters that are "mapped out" by those mappings -- less likelihood of having accurate fonts available, more likelihood of visual confusion, etc. The assumption that mappings will occur according to IDNA2003 rules also turns some proposed changes to add characters into incompatible ones (ones that some people consider incompatible enough to represent security problems). However, additional analysis demonstrates that there are potential incompatibilities and transition-related changes even if one simply moves from one version of Unicode to another with no changes in the IDNA model. For example, the IDNA2003 mapping rules, especially if interpreted as "strings dependent on mappings are ok in URIs" combine with Unicode 5.1's changes in the model for coding Malayalam, make it impossible to make a completely orderly transition between Unicode 3.2-based IDNA2003 and any version of IDNA based on Unicode 5.1 or later. While I/we recognize that the use of UTF-8 strings in URLs (possibly %-encoded) has become common and is supported in some browsers and that HTML5 and XML efforts encourage the use of IRIs in hrefs, those practices are problematic in several ways. An over-dramatic way to describe the problem is that one has a choice between those approaches and stable identifiers or between stable identifiers and _ever_ moving off Unicode 3.2 for IDNs. It appears that one solution to the problems, which is not within the scope of the IDNABIS WG (although it could make some recommendations and assumptions) would be to: * Clarify that the only IDN forms permitted in URIs are the ACE-encoded forms (i.e., "A-labels" or "Punycode encoding with prefix") with no exceptions for %-encoded UTF-8 or other variations. * Clarify that IRI-> URI transformation of the domain name slot must produce ACE forms, not %-encoded UTF-8. * To the extent possible, encourage the use of URIs (with ACE-form labels only) in documents, especially documents that are expected to be long-lived, because mapping dependencies increase the odds that the identifiers will become unstable or ambiguous. * Specify the mappings that are permitted and/or required as IRI-> URI operations (map, then invoke IDNA to produce the ACE form from a UTF-8 form that does not require mapping) and do so on a per-protocol basis that might, e.g., do less mapping for some protocols than others and might treat domains appearing in the tail differently. * Put appropriate flexibility into the various web-related standards (especially XML and HTML) that permits the use of IRIs where URIs are already being used to include UTF-8 strings and handle the IRIs as suggested above. This is not a good solution. In fact, it stinks. But all of the alternatives, notably ones that effectively leave us stuck at Unicode 3.2, appear to be much worse. Again, just a heads-up, although I expect that some of this will come up strongly during IETF. Talk with you all in a few minutes. john From mnot@mnot.net Fri Mar 13 10:49:01 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AEA73A6927 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.925, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RDNS_DOTCOM_HELO=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmuKLflKVYjd for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630AC3A684E for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wlan-mc2-145-161.corp.yahoo.com (unknown [209.131.62.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98BE4D05A0; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> In-Reply-To: <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) (was: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda)) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:49:36 -0700 References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:49:01 -0000 Hi John, Thanks; I'll make sure to put it on the agenda for next time. In the meantime, I'm very interested in this topic, as I'm running up =20= against a number of IRI-related issues in the Link draft. As a side note I was amused and frustrated to run across an IRI in the =20= wild on a US site yesterday; = http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqu=E9s/dp/B000Q74WFG/ (notice the accent on Appliqu=E9s). I cut-and-pasted it, and immediately noticed two problems; - Apple Mail's URI detection algorithms stopped at the accented =20 character - When pasted into Twitter, it was converted into a tinyURL; http://tinyurl.com/cw7hth which resolves to http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqu=C3=A9s/dp/=20 B000Q74WFG/ which still works, I suspect, only because they're using the string =20 after 'dp' to find a row in a database. IMO this does not bode well for IRIs as identifiers, since one of the =20= big ideas that made URIs successful is the ability to cut and paste =20 them, write them down from billboards, etc. Talk to you all at 1pm US/Pacific, On 13/03/2009, at 9:53 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > Hi. > > This is far too late to get on today's agenda in any useful way > (and I wouldn't have time to prepare coherent comments if there > were) but, as a heads up... > > The issue of the role of non-ASCII strings in URL/URI contexts > has arisen again in the IDNABIS WG in the context of transition > issues if non-ASCII UTF-8 strings (or the equivalent) are used > in URIs, either directly or in %-encoded form. The issues have > arisen primarily in the context of the effort in the current > spec to reduce or eliminate the many mappings called for by > IDNA2003 (the current version). That effort is motivated by the > increased fragility of the characters that are "mapped out" by > those mappings -- less likelihood of having accurate fonts > available, more likelihood of visual confusion, etc. The > assumption that mappings will occur according to IDNA2003 rules > also turns some proposed changes to add characters into > incompatible ones (ones that some people consider incompatible > enough to represent security problems). > > However, additional analysis demonstrates that there are > potential incompatibilities and transition-related changes even > if one simply moves from one version of Unicode to another with > no changes in the IDNA model. For example, the IDNA2003 mapping > rules, especially if interpreted as "strings dependent on > mappings are ok in URIs" combine with Unicode 5.1's changes in > the model for coding Malayalam, make it impossible to make a > completely orderly transition between Unicode 3.2-based IDNA2003 > and any version of IDNA based on Unicode 5.1 or later. > > While I/we recognize that the use of UTF-8 strings in URLs > (possibly %-encoded) has become common and is supported in some > browsers and that HTML5 and XML efforts encourage the use of > IRIs in hrefs, those practices are problematic in several ways. > An over-dramatic way to describe the problem is that one has a > choice between those approaches and stable identifiers or > between stable identifiers and _ever_ moving off Unicode 3.2 for > IDNs. > > It appears that one solution to the problems, which is not > within the scope of the IDNABIS WG (although it could make some > recommendations and assumptions) would be to: > > * Clarify that the only IDN forms permitted in URIs are > the ACE-encoded forms (i.e., "A-labels" or "Punycode > encoding with prefix") with no exceptions for %-encoded > UTF-8 or other variations. > =09 > * Clarify that IRI-> URI transformation of the domain > name slot must produce ACE forms, not %-encoded UTF-8. > =09 > * To the extent possible, encourage the use of URIs > (with ACE-form labels only) in documents, especially > documents that are expected to be long-lived, because > mapping dependencies increase the odds that the > identifiers will become unstable or ambiguous. > =09 > * Specify the mappings that are permitted and/or > required as IRI-> URI operations (map, then invoke IDNA > to produce the ACE form from a UTF-8 form that does not > require mapping) and do so on a per-protocol basis that > might, e.g., do less mapping for some protocols than > others and might treat domains appearing in the tail > differently. > =09 > * Put appropriate flexibility into the various > web-related standards (especially XML and HTML) that > permits the use of IRIs where URIs are already being > used to include UTF-8 strings and handle the IRIs as > suggested above. > > This is not a good solution. In fact, it stinks. But all of > the alternatives, notably ones that effectively leave us stuck > at Unicode 3.2, appear to be much worse. > > Again, just a heads-up, although I expect that some of this will > come up strongly during IETF. > > Talk with you all in a few minutes. > > john > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From rubys@intertwingly.net Fri Mar 13 10:54:26 2009 Return-Path: <rubys@intertwingly.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C683A6A94 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ka5nesBfnRe for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.121]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A358A3A6A7A for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.125] (really [75.182.92.38]) by cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090313175503.NNCI3201.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@[192.168.1.125]>; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:55:03 +0000 Message-ID: <49BA9DF7.3080104@intertwingly.net> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:55:03 -0400 From: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org>, John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:54:26 -0000 Mark Nottingham wrote: > > As a side note I was amused and frustrated to run across an IRI in the > wild on a US site yesterday; > http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqués/dp/B000Q74WFG/ > (notice the accent on Appliqués). > > I cut-and-pasted it, and immediately noticed two problems; > - Apple Mail's URI detection algorithms stopped at the accented character > - When pasted into Twitter, it was converted into a tinyURL; > http://tinyurl.com/cw7hth > which resolves to > http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqués/dp/B000Q74WFG/ > which still works, I suspect, only because they're using the string > after 'dp' to find a row in a database. > > IMO this does not bode well for IRIs as identifiers, since one of the > big ideas that made URIs successful is the ability to cut and paste > them, write them down from billboards, etc. Here's an example of an IRI that does work in twitter: http://twitter.com/samruby/status/1289981841 - Sam Ruby From klensin@jck.com Sat Mar 14 03:12:22 2009 Return-Path: <klensin@jck.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205493A68D2 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 03:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ru20jMB5rPVQ for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 03:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1B83A67E5 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 03:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1LiQrR-0002Kv-NG; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:12:58 -0400 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:12:56 -0400 From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) (was: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda)) Message-ID: <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:12:22 -0000 --On Friday, March 13, 2009 10:49 -0700 Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: > In the meantime, I'm very interested in this topic, as I'm > running up against a number of IRI-related issues in the Link > draft. It may be worth trying to set up a side-discussion among those who are interested in this general topic. > As a side note I was amused and frustrated to run across an > IRI in the wild on a US site yesterday; >=20 > = http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqu=C3=A9s/dp/= B > 000Q74WFG/ > (notice the accent on Appliqu=C3=A9s). >=20 > I cut-and-pasted it, and immediately noticed two problems; > - Apple Mail's URI detection algorithms stopped at the > accented character > - When pasted into Twitter, it was converted into a = tinyURL; > http://tinyurl.com/cw7hth > which resolves to >=20 > = http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqu=C3=83=C2=A9= s/dp > /B000Q74WFG/ > which still works, I suspect, only because they're using the > string after 'dp' to find a row in a database. >=20 > IMO this does not bode well for IRIs as identifiers, since one > of the big ideas that made URIs successful is the ability to > cut and paste them, write them down from billboards, etc. Some of the problem is "just" bugs. Another part is the specific issue I've been focused on from time to time, which has to do with what is actually valid in a URI (which interacts with the conversation during the call about how much practices outweigh written specifications and standards, even when the practices are demonstrably harmful or risky) and where an IRI can validly and appropriately be used. But there is also a more general problem which we can't fix. If you see a traditional URL in printed form, you can do some pattern-matching to what you are expected to type on a keyboard with under 100 characters. With Unicode and the current (2003) version of IDNA, the number of characters from which you have to choose is around three orders of magnitude more than that (with the IDNA2008 proposal, that number gets a lot smaller, but that is one of the things some people are objecting to). Similarly, because of a lot of issues with coding and its variations, issues of alternate representations of characters that Unicode summarizes under the term "normalization" systems designed for one-octet characters having do deal with multiple-octet ones (sometimes of variable length), etc., copy-and-paste operations (to quote Patrik Falstrom), generally don't work although there are a lot of handy exceptions. =20 That is going to be the nature of the beast for a rather long time, perhaps forever, except in situations where one can perform operations (including transcribing from print to computers and copy-and-paste) under very strong localization assumptions about what is going on. It is probably worth mentioning that the original HTML spec contributed significantly to the mess we have today by assuming that any file containing octets with the high bit set was ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1), not UTF-8 or anything else that was much help outside the range of Western European languages and their writing systems. Without knowing which pair is involved (I might be able to guess if I played around for a bit), the Twitter issue you describe above is most likely a case of the character set that the system containing the URL assumed was different from Twitter's assumption. Unless the systems you are using are immensely sophisticated about what is going on, you are copying and pasting bits, not character abstractions, so, unless you pass enough character set coding information to the other application (copy and paste generally cannot and we haven't defined other mechanisms) so it can sort things out, bad things happen. I find it sad, ironic, and symptomatic of the problems we face that Martin D=C3=BCrst cannot successfully receive and send non-ASCII characters in email because the native coding system that is used for intercomputer communications in Japan is a code-switching technique based on ISO 2022, not UTF-8. If your example is looked at another way, it is an example of why trying to educate folks that the standards are there for a reason may be important. If the "IRIs are user interface matters" model were followed, then it would be the responsibility of the IRI -> URI translator on your system to be sure that=20 http://www.target.com/Thomas-Engine-Peel-Stick-Appliqu=C3=A9s/dp/= B000Q74WFG/ was appropriately transcoded into UTF-8 (if necessary), then properly mapped into all-ASCII (possibly with %-escapes) URI form... and only those canonical, all-ASCII URIs would actually be the subject of copy and paste operations. Absent bugs, Apple would have no problems parsing the resulting URI string and, while Twitter might show you something you didn't want to see (e.g., the string with %-escaped UTF-8 for the accented character), it would at least work as you expected. best, john From tlr@w3.org Sat Mar 14 08:53:03 2009 Return-Path: <tlr@w3.org> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ECD3A6801 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FiOpRLB8c6Kr for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0287F3A6A83 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BAD4EEBA; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:53:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Roessler <tlr@w3.org> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> Subject: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda) References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> Message-Id: <D9A986CE-9147-4D85-9212-BF3EDFB486BE@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:53:18 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:53:03 -0000 Belated regrets. I had been on the road for more than two weeks, and =20= simply crashed when I made it home earlier that evening. --=20 Thomas Roessler, W3C <tlr@w3.org> On 5 Mar 2009, at 10:01, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Agenda: > 0) select scribe > 1) review action items > DONE: mnot to draft wiki page on IETF/W3C liaison > ACTION: mnot to propose times for 3/13 [DONE], 5/14, 7/16 liaison =20 > calls > DONE: plh to contact MDW about liaison response to IETF > DONE: plh to inform Arun of March 2 deadline, encourage quick I-D =20 > submission for Origin proposal > 2) W3C Content Transformation Proxies guidelines [Francois Daoust] > <http://www.w3.org/mid/000001c97cd0$f6bd1b40$7a9eca3e@AREPPIM002> > 3) Review wiki page <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison> > 4) GeoPriv liaison statement response [Matt Womer] > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/486/> > 5) Quick list of new work at IETF74 -- MMOX, OAUTH bofs in =20 > particular [Lisa] > <http://www.ietf.org/meetings/74/> > 6) IETF/HTML5 meeting [Sam] > <http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009> > 7) VOICEXML use of POST [Lisa] > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-mediactrl-vxml/> > 8) draft-abarth-origin = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-origin/=20 > > > 9) draft-abarth-mime-sniff = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-abarth-mime-sniff/=20 > > > 10) draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol = <http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol/=20 > > > > Call details: > Friday, 13 March 17:00-18:00 UTC (1:00pm-2:00pm Boston local) > = <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3D03&day=3D13&= year=3D2009&hour=3D17&min=3D00&sec=3D0&p1=3D0=20 > > > Zakim Bridge +1.617.761.6200 <tel:+1.617.761.6200>, conference 4383 =20= > (=93IETF=94) > 10 participants > IRC: irc.w3.org, port 6665 #ietf > > Expected: > Lisa, Mark, Philippe, DanC, John, Francois Daoust, Sam Ruby, Matt =20 > Womer > Regrets: > TimBL > > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From tlr@w3.org Sat Mar 14 08:53:16 2009 Return-Path: <tlr@w3.org> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344BF3A6A33 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o4kVxg4W-fZA for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.w3.org (ssh.w3.org [128.30.52.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3C3A696A for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (homer.w3.org [128.30.52.30]) by homer.w3.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E31D4EEBA; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:53:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Roessler <tlr@w3.org> To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> In-Reply-To: <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) (was: Re: Next call: March 13 1pm US/Pacific (updated agenda)) References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> Message-Id: <591DC9EF-BE10-4D90-890A-94892FFAC55A@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 16:53:54 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:53:16 -0000 On 14 Mar 2009, at 11:12, John C Klensin wrote: > It may be worth trying to set up a side-discussion among those > who are interested in this general topic. Count me in on that. I'd hope we can also get DanC involved, as he'll be the W3Cer to attend the upcoming IETF. -- Thomas Roessler, W3C <tlr@w3.org> From leslie@thinkingcat.com Mon Mar 16 13:06:56 2009 Return-Path: <leslie@thinkingcat.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7D428C1E1 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.365 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.365 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_20=-0.74, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9WpSwH2tj61f for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeke.ecotroph.net (zeke.ecotroph.net [70.164.19.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5115D28C1C6 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beethoven.local ([::ffff:209.183.196.229]) (AUTH: PLAIN leslie, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:07:36 -0400 id 015880D7.49BEB188.00001CD7 Message-ID: <49BEB180.5030106@thinkingcat.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:07:28 -0400 From: Leslie Daigle <leslie@thinkingcat.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Roessler <tlr@w3.org> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> <591DC9EF-BE10-4D90-890A-94892FFAC55A@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <591DC9EF-BE10-4D90-890A-94892FFAC55A@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org>, John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:06:56 -0000 De-lurking briefly -- I'd be up for the conversation. Leslie. Thomas Roessler wrote: > On 14 Mar 2009, at 11:12, John C Klensin wrote: > >> It may be worth trying to set up a side-discussion among those >> who are interested in this general topic. > > > Count me in on that. I'd hope we can also get DanC involved, as he'll > be the W3Cer to attend the upcoming IETF. > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- From klensin@jck.com Mon Mar 16 20:13:35 2009 Return-Path: <klensin@jck.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD733A677C for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.296 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.296 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PyrWyc4E8yyq for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2943A6452 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1LjPks-0002ck-Hc; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:14:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:14:13 -0400 From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> To: Leslie Daigle <leslie@thinkingcat.com>, Thomas Roessler <tlr@w3.org> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) Message-ID: <1D2AFEBD2220054515D5A979@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <49BEB180.5030106@thinkingcat.com> References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> <591DC9EF-BE10-4D90-890A-94892FFAC55A@w3.org> <49BEB180.5030106@thinkingcat.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:13:35 -0000 Are there going to be enough people at IETF, with enough spare cycles, to make trying to find a time there, possibly for a bar-BOF, worthwhile (I'm somewhat in doubt about my own availability, but could try)? Or should we pull together and informal discussion/ mailing list? My personal next step is probably to try to pull the details of my "shift the problem out to the IRI/URI interface" suggestion into an actual proposal that can be evaluated, but I could use help and criticism of/with that and there are a lot of other pieces of this that need exploration. john --On Monday, March 16, 2009 16:07 -0400 Leslie Daigle <leslie@thinkingcat.com> wrote: > > De-lurking briefly -- I'd be up for the conversation. > > Leslie. > > Thomas Roessler wrote: >> On 14 Mar 2009, at 11:12, John C Klensin wrote: >> >>> It may be worth trying to set up a side-discussion among >>> those who are interested in this general topic. >> >> >> Count me in on that. I'd hope we can also get DanC involved, >> as he'll be the W3Cer to attend the upcoming IETF. From leslie@thinkingcat.com Fri Mar 20 11:02:36 2009 Return-Path: <leslie@thinkingcat.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463EF3A6C5F for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:02:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rq1gBfpnOlGE for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeke.ecotroph.net (zeke.ecotroph.net [70.164.19.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623D63A6C6B for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beethoven.local ([::ffff:216.239.45.19]) (AUTH: PLAIN leslie, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:03:19 -0400 id 0158802D.49C3DA67.000046CC Message-ID: <49C3DA5E.9090303@thinkingcat.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:03:10 -0400 From: Leslie Daigle <leslie@thinkingcat.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Macintosh/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> Subject: Re: IDNs, IRIs, and URIs (again) References: <519A41C1-CE0D-4B21-853D-FC159386D4C7@mnot.net> <34F82B18-DCFA-4E55-8122-0ECB9E6E87C2@mnot.net> <B52C432F-87E7-48EF-B942-D62688DC7DFD@mnot.net> <F8946DE9-00BB-4913-9273-0D734839DE2D@mnot.net> <5F6439825CDE922173A6E1A5@PST.JCK.COM> <4785B750-68BA-4B0C-9770-CA7FD1E05BE0@mnot.net> <04096B0FA06715E44F777580@PST.JCK.COM> <591DC9EF-BE10-4D90-890A-94892FFAC55A@w3.org> <49BEB180.5030106@thinkingcat.com> <1D2AFEBD2220054515D5A979@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <1D2AFEBD2220054515D5A979@PST.JCK.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fd <fd@w3.org>, Matt Womer <mdw@w3.org>, W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:02:36 -0000 I haven't seen/heard other responses here. I'll be at the IETF, but am doubtful about spare cycles. If others have, I'll see what I can do. Otherwise -- I'm happy with an e-mail discussion. Leslie. John C Klensin wrote: > Are there going to be enough people at IETF, with enough spare > cycles, to make trying to find a time there, possibly for a > bar-BOF, worthwhile (I'm somewhat in doubt about my own > availability, but could try)? Or should we pull together and > informal discussion/ mailing list? > > My personal next step is probably to try to pull the details of > my "shift the problem out to the IRI/URI interface" suggestion > into an actual proposal that can be evaluated, but I could use > help and criticism of/with that and there are a lot of other > pieces of this that need exploration. > > john > > > --On Monday, March 16, 2009 16:07 -0400 Leslie Daigle > <leslie@thinkingcat.com> wrote: > >> De-lurking briefly -- I'd be up for the conversation. >> >> Leslie. >> >> Thomas Roessler wrote: >>> On 14 Mar 2009, at 11:12, John C Klensin wrote: >>> >>>> It may be worth trying to set up a side-discussion among >>>> those who are interested in this general topic. >>> >>> Count me in on that. I'd hope we can also get DanC involved, >>> as he'll be the W3Cer to attend the upcoming IETF. > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- From mnot@mnot.net Fri Mar 20 15:32:41 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9549B3A6ABA for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:32:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RDNS_DOTCOM_HELO=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wCpRjwNq6+31 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1FF3A687A for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from naturevery-lm.corp.yahoo.com (unknown [209.131.62.113]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB97423E496 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4B87420F-7742-4C18-9835-9DD9283BAFF9@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: 5/14 teleconference scheduling Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:33:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:32:41 -0000 Please vote for your preferred times at: http://doodle.com/udv8cb7pfw8nbvm6 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From mnot@mnot.net Fri Mar 20 15:43:39 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC6B28C1C1 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.890, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RDNS_DOTCOM_HELO=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XsafmV36zHiM for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B301C3A6947 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from naturevery-lm.corp.yahoo.com (unknown [209.131.62.113]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AAF223E49F for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <CF0F8476-126C-4C47-A16F-221D41A5DA75@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: DRAFT minutes from 13 March Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:44:20 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:43:40 -0000 IETF/W3C Liaison Meeting 13 Mar 2009 Attendees Present DanC, Matt, lisa, Johnk, Sam, mnot, plh Regrets TimBL Chair mnot Scribe Matt Contents * [3]Topics 1. [4]Action items 2. [5]Content Transformation 3. [6]Wiki page review 4. [7]Geopriv 5. [8]IETF 74 6. [9]IETF HTML5 bar BOF 7. [10]VoiceXML use of POST 8. [11]draft-abarth-origin 9. [12]origin 10. [13]mime sniff 11. [14]Other business * [15]Summary of Action Items Action items mnot: Draft of wiki, everyone okay with it? <DanC> <[16]http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison> [16] http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison%3E DanC: I tweaked it a bit. lisa: I havent' looked yet. Content Transformation francois: You want an introduction to the CT guidelines, I take it. ... CT Proxies were introduced by mobile carriers to allow mobile users to access the Web at large. ... In theory it's a good idea, but in practice... there are many legacy servers that return errors whent hey don't know the UA, so the proxies instead replace the UA string with a well known one to trick ... the server into thinking they know who they are. ... But in the mobile world, the UA string is essential due to fragmentation. Mobile content creators adapt the resource based on the capabilties of the device found in the UA string. ... These proxies ruined carefully crafted content... <francois> x-mobile-ua, x-device-user-agent, x-original-user-agent francois: Now CT proxies provide the original UA string in a separate header field. There was no real consensus, so each one came up with their own strings, using X-... ... Now with this guideline we're trying to define some practices that will bring some order back to the world. ... This way CT proxies can still add value for legacy pages, but allow mobile developers to be happy. ... Current draft says to send the original UA agent, but if you receive a response that doesn't look right, then send the request again with the fake UA. ... That doesn't satisfy everyone... they also want to use a single HTTP header field. ... There's no immediate benefit to adding another new header... so, can we keep the X- prefix and how can we migrate? ... The X- header field is already deployed. How do we migrate to not having it? mnot: rfc 3864 describes the header field registration policies. ... I don't remember specifically if we completely disallow X-, but I think from the way you describe it you might have a rationale to grandfather it in. ... It's in wide use? francois: How wide? <lisa> Have you seen [17]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4236.txt ? [17] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4236.txt mnot: 2 or more implementations deployed... <DanC> (a search for "x-" in [18]http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3864 fails) [18] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3864 mnot: I don't see anything in the rfc that says you can't use X-... you could make the in use argument. You could also register something without the X- prefix. <plh> John Klensin JcK: Even if you register the X- there's a non-trivial risk that someone is using the same string with different semantics. ... It's worse in X- because it's been custom for others to come along later and reuse them with a different meaning. plh: They did say they'd consider something other than X- right? But if there's another UA string in the headers, how do they name it, etc? mnot: The UA header does allow more than one value, it's a list of values. That should be the first place to look. DanC: X- doesn't occur in 3864, is that by design? mnot: I don't recall. DanC: The X-.. once their introduced, how do we get rid of them? x-www-form... it's everywhere. How do we get rid of them? mnot: Don't use them unless it's a private thing. JcK: This is a 25+ year old argument that we keep going around on. Only use it if it's extremely private, not on the public network. Never use one of these... names are cheap, register one if you must and if it doesn't work it goes unused. DanC: Why put energy into discouraging it at all? Is it just wasted breath? JcK: Long arguments about this... <DanC> (fyi... [19]http://www.mnot.net/blog/2009/02/18/x- "Stop it with the X- Already!" ) [19] http://www.mnot.net/blog/2009/02/18/x- JcK: The private uses do have meaning, the key to registering these things is providing a minimal description. ... If it's private, and I don't want the public to know what it is, perhaps there's a justification there... ... RFC ???? took a different position than 2822, and 56?? took a slightly different take on that... mnot: While RFC [media types] says X- shouldn't be registered. <DanC> (provisional registries are one of the best ways to mitigate these problems, IMO) JcK: Many of the authors of these RFCs have the wounds of it... mnot: Does this clarify enough to make progress or add confusion? DanC: Least cost seems to be to keep using X-. mnot: Use a proper name, but if it hurts adoption or vendors scream, then you could get it grandfathered in. francois: I expect that we'll get some negative feedback from the IETF and the w3c as well. If we have a strong use case we could register the X- if need be. mnot: HTTPbis can't give a formal recommendation, but we could get someone to review the document. francois: We did for the first draft already, and will for the second one I imagine. Wiki page review [20]http://esw.w3.org/topic/IetfW3cLiaison mnot: Any comments? Geopriv <plh> Matt: I've been encouraging the geo chairs to come up with a formal reply. <DanC> wow... this liaison statement is *still* pending? <plh> Matt: it's taking time and I apologize for the delay <plh> ... Richard Barnes was in attendance for the geo f2f meeting <plh> ... came up with a consensus <plh> ... updated the draft <plh> ... planning to re-open this can of worms for the next draft <plh> Mark: when will we receive a response? <plh> Matt: was supposed to come up by last Friday <DanC> (I got myself an android/G1 phone a week or so ago... so this privacy stuff is now a real-world concern of mine. Maybe I'll take another look.) <plh> ACTION: Matt to follow up on geopriv liaison statement [recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action01] <plh> Plh: since the co-chair of geopriv attended the f2f meeting, it was assumed that consensus obtained was enough to move forward <plh> Lisa: Richard is now chair of the geopriv wg <plh> Mark: we could cover recent changes in the IETF at the end IETF 74 mnot: IETF 74 is next week. lisa: There's a bof on XMTP (or XMPP?) ... There's a mail BOF. ... BOF on multi-participants online interactions, MMOX <DanC> I'll be there, FYI. [23]http://www.tripit.com/trip/show/id/1329957 arrive SFO Sun mid-day, depart SFO mid-day Thu Mar 26 [23] http://www.tripit.com/trip/show/id/1329957 lisa: Second Life, virtual world companies, etc, having a debate about interoperability and use cases and such. MMOX lots of interest. <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask date time of MMOX mnot: Tuesday 3:20-5. <JcK> The mail bof could have been called "find old stuff that has been lying around for years, is widely deployed and used, clean it up, and advance it to Internet Standard". There should be few, if any, substantive issues -- docs that raise substantive issues will be taken off the agenda" lisa: OAUTH bof should be interesting to W3C I assume. Work moving quite well on list after quiet period during holidays. Getting consensus on charter, and have new chairs and [scribe failure] ... IPR bof, copy right issues that have come up recently. ... bar bof on HTML5. ... Bi-directional HTTP, COMET, etc. mnot: That's during the app area meeting? lisa: Yes. <lisa> APPAREA : [24]http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/apparea.txt <JcK> DanC: OAUTH is at 1300 Monday, Apps Area at 0900 lisa: The 2nd Life folks are interested in this bidirectional stuff and claim they've got a different use case. mnot: Are W3C people aware of copyright problems? lisa: There's a sun rise problem... DanC: The IETF note-well thing didn't cover that? mnot: Doesn't transfer copyright. ... There's an implication on standards that are published... the idea behind the change, I could be wrong, was that other standards organizations could re-use IETF text. Because of the sunrise problems they can't do that. <JcK> If I can get into the conversation, I can explain this stuff ... am very much in the middle mnot: e.g. link draft, I have pre-November 10th contributions with Note Well... ... Changes in IESG? <JcK> But folks claiming to speak for/be involved in the W3C are very active in the conversations. <mnot> [26]http://www.ietf.org/IESGmems.html <scribe> ACTION: plh to add mnot to Policy admins [recorded in [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action02] mnot: Changes are not reflected on that link. lisa: The IETF mailing list for it... ... JcK now on IAB. ... There are other changes too. mnot: The most relavent are in apps and RAI. IETF HTML5 bar BOF rubys: Only 10 people signed up so far, but may be more popular than that. lisa: IETF people are likely to not sign up on the wiki page. mnot: More likely to just drop in. lisa: Sitting room for 25 or so, but probably bigger than that. mnot: Can we get the wiki updated with location info? rubys: Someone who has more details can send it to me or update it themselves. <scribe> ACTION: rubys to update the HTML5 bar BOF page with details. [recorded in [29]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action03] lisa: I don't know which room is assigned. Wednesday? rubys: Yes. <DanC> [30]http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 [30] http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 mnot: I see a lot of high level goals and a lot of concrete things to look at. rubys: Lots of issues we could talk about, not sure quite how to keep things moving. mnot: How much time? rubys: 8pm until whenever. mnot: Dinner before? ... We could go until 10 if we have the time. ... Is Ian coming? he's on the list. rubys: He's told me he's coming, but then says to others he may not. mnot: Anything we can do to prepare for this to make it successful? DanC: Should be good. Chris Wilson not certain? rubys: I think that's old data. I believe he's planning on being at this and Web open (?). <DanC> (what 7:30pm start time? "8pm Wednesday, March 25th") lisa: The 7:30 start time is rgiht at the end of the plenary, so some IETF people may not have had dinner. ... Room was reserved for 7:30... mnot: Might it be worth meeting ahead of time? VoiceXML use of POST lisa: The IETF spec punted on interoperability questions by pointing to the w3c spec. ... The VoiceXML stuff talks about GET and POST, but... tried to get folks in IETF to write down stuff like this. DanC: Not clear to me that both parties must support chunk transfer encoding. lisa: Re-inforcing what the HTTP spec actually requires is often useful. ... It's worth re-iterating what's in the HTTP spec. [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-voice/2009JanMar/0014.ht ml [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-voice/2009JanMar/0014.html lisa: Are redirects appropriate? etc. we're trying to set standards for what the IETF standards must met when they use HTTP as a transport. ... I sent mail and haven't gotten an answer yet. mnot: You're talking about a profile of HTTP... lisa: If we could find the right people we could get this written down and referenced once. mnot: Identify extensibility points, and which points we could have variance across, etc. If there's something we could put into BIS it might be useful. [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-voice/2009JanMar/0014.ht ml [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-voice/2009JanMar/0014.html <DanC> matt, if you see mail like lisa's, please *reply* to confirm receipt. Matt: The chairs will be sending a response once they figure out what it should be. Looking for clarifications on the first two paragraphs and asking for review on the last paragraph. <DanC> I think senders can wait a couple days when they send a comment on a W3C WD, but more than a week is kinda off-putting draft-abarth-origin origin mime sniff <DanC> mnot: the feedback from the HTTP WG was "Use Referer" and the question remains whether that suffices mnot: Are we going to review this in HTTP bis was DanC's question. <DanC> "The above algorithm is a willful violation of the HTTP <DanC> specification." mnot: It looked like they were specifying a mime-sniffing algorithm for browsers on top of HTTP, but that we weren't going to incorporate this into HTTP. DanC: It's not on top of HTTP, it's in violation... mnot: I think we'll have sufficient wiggle room in HTTP bis that they could do this... DanC: There's still some chatting to do? mnot: That's my impression. DanC: This is a huge hot button issue. mnot: If they want it published as an IETF standard they're going to need more consensus. rubys: I am pretty confident they want to publish it as a standard. DanC: I don't think they're breaking things, just writing down what's broken already. lisa: The way we deal with contentious things like this is to form working groups. We don't have a mechanism for reaching consensus when there's such a substantial difference of opinion. ... We now have several such topics that could be worthy of a second HTTP WG if we don't extend the current one. DanC: And if no one shows up? lisa: In a WG we have a way to make sure people play nicely. It's where there is a lack of a WG that there's less order. mnot: Getting to the point where there's agreement that there should be a standard that describes what this thing describes and getting to a charter is going to be difficult. lisa: If there was a way forward recommended too that would be great. A charter can have two deliverables, documenting what's there and how to move forward... DanC: Hixie spent 10 years trying to get browsers to follow the spec, but the browsers would end up losing market share... ... Users will think the browser is broken and not the server. <JcK> At the same time, some of those practices, however well-established, can cause rather serious problems including security ones... and there, behavior sometimes does change. <DanC> yes, JcK, I think there's a pretty good argument on the other side... it'll be tricky to get people to consider both sides <lisa> yeah, sorry it was so confusing too mnot: I fear in 10-12 years you're going to have to publish a media type, and a 3 page algorithim on how to sniff it... <JcK> There are pretty good arguments on both sides. The problem is, indeed, to get people to consider both, rather than repeating the same position over and over again. mnot: I think it needs to be handled very carefully. ... Web socket protocol is totally different in that it's not trying to document anything that's there, just something totally new. Other business mnot: Next meeting, 14th of May. No particular time. ... I'll chair the next two meetings. ... I'll be in Australia. JcK: I'll be in Nairobi. Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: Matt to follow up on geopriv liaison statement [recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action01] [NEW] ACTION: plh to add mnot to Policy admins [recorded in [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action02] [NEW] ACTION: rubys to update the HTML5 bar BOF page with details. [recorded in [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-ietf-minutes.html#action03] [End of minutes] From timbl@w3.org Sat Mar 21 12:40:58 2009 Return-Path: <timbl@w3.org> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336623A6AEA for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kO7NYxI4+FlG for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flanders.w3.org (people.w3.org [128.30.54.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1C23A6A45 for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-96-233-120-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net ([96.233.120.166] helo=new-host-3.home) by flanders.w3.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <timbl@w3.org>) id 1Ll74e-0004hV-0B; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:41:43 +0000 Message-Id: <822F19EE-83BE-4AF8-8268-D73D1F0F3D9F@w3.org> From: Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4B87420F-7742-4C18-9835-9DD9283BAFF9@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-321--488246571 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: 5/14 teleconference scheduling Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:41:14 -0400 References: <4B87420F-7742-4C18-9835-9DD9283BAFF9@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.7 X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.057, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 X-W3C-Scan-Sig: flanders.w3.org 1Ll74e-0004hV-0B ff0d10912a95d4568b5552cfe3c6b3b2 Cc: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:40:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-321--488246571 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "A script from "http://doodle.com" is requesting enhanced abilities that are UNSAFE and could be used to compromise your machine or data: - Run or install software on your machine Allow these abilities only if you trust this source to be free of viruses or malicious programs." Do you need me to do this? Do you know what doodle wants to do? Tim On 2009-03 -20, at 18:33, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Please vote for your preferred times at: > http://doodle.com/udv8cb7pfw8nbvm6 > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail-321--488246571 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; = -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">"A script from "<a = href=3D"http://doodle.com">http://doodle.com</a>" is requesting enhanced = abilities that are UNSAFE and could be used to compromise your machine = or data:<div><br></div><div>- Run or install software on your = machine</div><div><br></div><div>Allow these abilities only if you trust = this source to be free of viruses or malicious = programs."</div><div><br></div><div>Do you need me to do this? Do = you know what doodle wants to = do?</div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><div><br></div><div><div>On = 2009-03 -20, at 18:33, Mark Nottingham wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Please = vote for your preferred times at:<br> <a = href=3D"http://doodle.com/udv8cb7pfw8nbvm6">http://doodle.com/udv8cb7pfw8n= bvm6</a><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>--<br>Mark Nottingham = <a = href=3D"http://www.mnot.net/">http://www.mnot.net/</a><br></div></blockquo= te></div><br></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-321--488246571-- From mnot@mnot.net Sat Mar 21 12:47:39 2009 Return-Path: <mnot@mnot.net> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608393A6B02 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7H+FeYfqsGl for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-03.mxes.net (mxout-03.mxes.net [216.86.168.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6990E3A680B for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.1.53] (unknown [67.111.52.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE16C23E3E2; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <64A12A8B-75D2-4D93-A54E-CF128CC51C2E@mnot.net> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> To: Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org> In-Reply-To: <822F19EE-83BE-4AF8-8268-D73D1F0F3D9F@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: 5/14 teleconference scheduling Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:48:23 -0700 References: <4B87420F-7742-4C18-9835-9DD9283BAFF9@mnot.net> <822F19EE-83BE-4AF8-8268-D73D1F0F3D9F@w3.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Cc: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:47:39 -0000 I sent you a message about this a little while ago. AFAICT, the page isn't doing anything unusual; it uses Google ads and analytics, and a few local things to manage time zones. However, I'm not a Web security expert (nudging Thomas...). FWIW, neither my Safari (3.2.1) nor my Firefox (3.0.7) complains about this... perhaps you're running some extra in-browser software, or are running through a non-transparent proxy? Cheers, On 21/03/2009, at 12:41 PM, Tim Berners-Lee wrote: > "A script from "http://doodle.com" is requesting enhanced abilities > that are UNSAFE and could be used to compromise your machine or data: > > - Run or install software on your machine > > Allow these abilities only if you trust this source to be free of > viruses or malicious programs." > > Do you need me to do this? Do you know what doodle wants to do? > > Tim > > On 2009-03 -20, at 18:33, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Please vote for your preferred times at: >> http://doodle.com/udv8cb7pfw8nbvm6 >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ > -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ From klensin@jck.com Sat Mar 21 14:32:13 2009 Return-Path: <klensin@jck.com> X-Original-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07DE28C1F8 for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pIcv2mr0V1vQ for <w3c-policy@core3.amsl.com>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF7028C0FA for <w3c-policy@ietf.org>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ll8oH-000FPY-C2; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:32:53 -0400 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 17:32:52 -0400 From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org> Subject: Re: 5/14 teleconference scheduling Message-ID: <9A55173C8F05BB3D47A120DB@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <64A12A8B-75D2-4D93-A54E-CF128CC51C2E@mnot.net> References: <4B87420F-7742-4C18-9835-9DD9283BAFF9@mnot.net> <822F19EE-83BE-4AF8-8268-D73D1F0F3D9F@w3.org> <64A12A8B-75D2-4D93-A54E-CF128CC51C2E@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: W3C/IETF <w3c-policy@ietf.org> X-BeenThere: w3c-policy@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of w3c-ietf policy issues <w3c-policy.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/w3c-policy> List-Post: <mailto:w3c-policy@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w3c-policy>, <mailto:w3c-policy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 21:32:13 -0000 --On Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:48 -0700 Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote: > I sent you a message about this a little while ago. AFAICT, > the page isn't doing anything unusual; it uses Google ads and > analytics, and a few local things to manage time zones. > However, I'm not a Web security expert (nudging Thomas...). > > FWIW, neither my Safari (3.2.1) nor my Firefox (3.0.7) > complains about this... perhaps you're running some extra > in-browser software, or are running through a non-transparent > proxy? The NoScript plugin (available for several browsers, I believe, but I run it with Firefox) does detects that Doodle is trying to run its own scripts plus Google analytics. I haven't detected anything hostile with the former and it seems to run fine if Google analytics stay disabled). john
- Fwd: W3C/IETF coordination call 13 March, HTML 5 … Mark Nottingham
- Re: Fwd: W3C/IETF coordination call 13 March, HTM… Dan Connolly