Draft Minutes of IETF 98 WG Chairs Forum
Mirjam Kuehne <mir@ripe.net> Fri, 31 March 2017 16:05 UTC
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To: 'Working Group Chairs' <wgchairs@ietf.org>
From: Mirjam Kuehne <mir@ripe.net>
Subject: Draft Minutes of IETF 98 WG Chairs Forum
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:05:25 +0200
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Dear all, Here are the draft notes from our meeting on Wednesday, 29 March. Please let me know if anything is missing or wrong. I am sorry I didn't catch all the names. Kind regards, Mirjam ======== IETF 98, WG chairs lunch Wednesday, 29 March 2017 Agenda: 1. Website Update - Greg Wood (20 min) Preview new website with focus on how WG Chairs (and by extension experienced IETF participants) use the website and datatracker. 2. WGs using GitHub BoF - Paul Hoffman (15 min) Quick report out and discussion of results/next steps from the GitHub BOF 3. Effectiveness of Newcomer Targeted programs - Karen O’Donoghue (10 min) Summary of current list of newcomer targeted efforts. What are some metrics for measuring how effective newcomer efforts are? What do WG chairs think would make newcomers more effective in their working groups. 4. Summary of Education and mentoring activities (call for volunteers) Karen O’Donoghue (5 min) —— 1. Greg Wood: IETF website revamp slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-edu-sessh-ietf-website-revamp-project-00.pdf Discussion: One of the WG chairs said that would use a different order for the intended website audiences that Greg had listed on his slides. The experienced IETF participants were listed first, but he didn’t think that should be the case. Potential new IETF participants should be first on the list. He also asked if search engine optimisation is part of the website revamp project? Greg said he doesn’t think that’s the case, but will look into the possibility of implementing it. Greg asked the audience how often they go to www.ripe.net as opposed to the datatracker. Rick Taylor responded that he goes straight to the datatracker for day-to-day WG work. He only goes to the main website to find information about the meeting hotel etc. He added that it is not easy to find information on the main IETF website. Dave Black mentioned another use case for the main IETF website: He said he actually points people to special URLs on the website for information about the IETF organisation, meetings etc. Tim Chown said it is good to have a public front as long as the datatracker stays intact. He said it looks great so far, but wondered if there is a way to look at the current state of the new website and provide feedback. Greg responded that the plan is provide early access to the community for feedback and will make it known to the WG chairs when this will be possible. Someone suggested to develop two front pages: one for experienced participants and one for new people. It was also noted that quicklinks are useful. Justin Dean agreed with the comment that the experienced IETF community is not the main audience for the main web site. It should focus on potential and new contributors and should make it easier for them to participate, e.g. teaching them about the IETF process, how to submit drafts and how to contact people and mailing lists and how to find RFCs and how to implement them. Spencer Dawkins mentioned that all meeting links change from one to the next meeting and that that requires new navigation each time. Greg said that they will make sure that well known URLs should remain intact. Alexander Pelov also agreed to focus on new contributors, but added that this is related to more than just web design. It’s about structuring content. Design should come afterwards. He urged the development team to avoid making the IETF website look just like any other website. There is a spirit in the IETF and that should be reflected in the design. John Scudder: Likes the wall of text; doesn’t need to be on the front page though. Goes to www.ietf.org probably weekly Alissa Cooper said that we currently don’t have any way to track usage. We don’t know how many people visit the IETF website and how they navigate. We don’t have any of this information, mostly for historical reasons. That is also the case for the new website. Alissa thought that this would be useful if we can avoid person tracking. She would like to hear some feedback on that on the wg-chair list after the meeting. 2. Paul Hoffman: GitHub BoF The main goals of the BoF was to allow people to ask questions. Some WGs rely heavily on GitHub, there are some that don’t use it at all, and there are others that are in the middle. There is a wide variety of usages. But there are some problems with these usages. Paul encouraged everyone to look at the presentations (one by Mark Nottingham, one by Martin Thomson: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/agenda/wugh/). Both speakers pretty much know each other from GitHub, but disagree on a number of usage details. The biggest concern that came up during discussion was this: now we have mailing lists for discussions. Once we add GitHub, we’ll have another place for discussion (pull requests). So, how do you know where to look at the conversation. Are we loosing the benefit of having one central place (the mailing lists)? Also, GitHub has a sharp learning curve. It’s been originally designed for programming. But now we are using it for documentation as well. People who work with GitHub find IETF work on it which then encourages them to participate in the IETF. That’s a good thing and we want those people to participate. But it is a bit of a culture clash. Q&A: Someone asked if there is a way to cross-post from GitHub to the mailing lists. Paul confirmed that this is possible. Pete Resnick said that he has started using GitHub now for the mtgvenue WG. He was wondering if the other way round is also possible: posting from the mailing list back to GitHub. Rick Taylor asked if we should be using a third-party platform? Wouldn’t it be better to use trac? Paul asked if people think that tutorials are needed. Someone mentioned that doing document development in a revision control system is valuable. Until now one can point people to mailing list archives. That might not be possible anymore when we use GitHub. Niels ten Oever responded to Paul’s question and said he would love to see more tutorials on travis, circl, httpbis and other useful tools. Natasha Rooney said that she likes using GitHub. It has vastly improved the entire process. Karen asked if we need to define a process for GitHub usage. Natasha said that she would like to develop such processes and define how to use it, how to set it up etc. Bron Gondwana said that if we only use home-built tools and platforms, it is harder for people to find us. Karen and Paul encouraged everyone to continue this discussion on the WG Chairs mailing list. 3. Karen: Education and Mentoring Directorate https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-edu-sessh-chair-slides-agenda-educationmentoring-directorate-newcomer-projects-00.pdf Karen showed the scope of the new directorate and the mail that Jari sent out to the ietf list earlier this week. She also showed the list of projects under the directorate. Please note that we are always looking for input for tutorial topics and for WG chair lunch forum topics. Please send us ideas! What about some more discussion on facilitating remote participation? Pete Resnick mentioned that he got pulled into the speed mentoring and he found it indeed useful. On the other hand he didn’t find the newcomers meet & greet very effective. Maybe we can maybe combine the two? BTW, the speed mentoring is also a good way for old-timers to actually talk to newcomers. Karen asked the room: What do you need from newcomers? What do you wish they would know? Paul asked if we ever reached out to people who attended only once to try to find out why. Karen explained that the definition of newcomers has been from first meeting to five meetings (first timers and newcomers). We send out surveys to newcomers. But we want to do more of that. Barry Leiba said that he finds the meet & greet effective, but is it effective for the newcomers? It is always too busy and too noisy. Could we maybe combine it with the actual welcome reception. He encouraged WG chairs to ask at the beginning if there are newcomers in the room and to explicitly welcome them. There were more people at the mic, but we ran out of time. Please send your input to the list!
- Draft Minutes of IETF 98 WG Chairs Forum Mirjam Kuehne