[XCON] Re: [Sip] Maintenance on softarmor web site Thursday 30Oct2003
Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com> Fri, 31 October 2003 06:00 UTC
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:59:06 -0600
From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Subject: [XCON] Re: [Sip] Maintenance on softarmor web site Thursday 30Oct2003
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Dean Willis wrote: > 1:30 PM USCST > > The main server (www.softarmor.com) will be down for the next few hours > while I replace the OS. > > In the interim, if you need web content, it's available at > http://kevlar.softarmor.com/ > > Anybody using the main box as a relay for email will also be affected. > > Cheers, > > -- > Dean Everything should be back in working order, I think. Maybe. Note that everything has been rekeyed. -- Dean _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail2.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.31 [192.168.4.31]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT3PFN; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:20:02 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail2.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9DGH9GU002657 for <adam@dynamicsoft.com>; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9DGJnTu014084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:19:50 -0500 Received: (from dwillis@localhost) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h9DGJnqT014082; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:19:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: bdsl.greycouncil.com: dwillis set sender to dean.willis@softarmor.com using -f Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com> To: Adam Roach <adam@dynamicsoft.com> Cc: xcon@softarmor.com In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E864FA@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> References: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E864FA@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <1066061989.13722.16.camel@bdsl.greycouncil.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:19:49 -0500 On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 23:52, Adam Roach wrote: > Whoops. I obviously forgot that this work had already been started. > For some reason, sometime between Vienna and now, my brain must > have translated "no floor control proposals yet" into "the floor > control work hasn't started yet." Probably my fault -- Tom Hiller and I have been teasing you with a potentially seperate requirements draft specific to CDMA-2000 1XRTT short-data-burst usage. And no, we don't think "Anything text plus sigcomp" is always adequate for this particularly demanding usage. -- Dean X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 To: "@nokia.com'; Adam Roach; pete@tech-know-ware.com; Jonathan Rosenberg; eburger@snowshore.com CC: xcon@softarmor.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:52:22 -0600 Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language From: "Adam Roach" Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Whoops. I obviously forgot that this work had already been started. For some reason, sometime between Vienna and now, my brain must have translated "no floor control proposals yet" into "the floor control work hasn't started yet." Sorry about that. /a > -----Original Message----- > From: petri.koskelainen@nokia.com [mailto:petri.koskelainen@nokia.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 3:00 > To: adam@dynamicsoft.com; pete@tech-know-ware.com; > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com; eburger@snowshore.com > Cc: xcon@softarmor.com > Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message > definition language > > > > First version of floor control requirements document is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-koskelainen-xcon-flo or-control-req-00.txt Comments are welcome.. -- Petri > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Adam Roach [mailto:adam@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: 11 October, 2003 02:22 > To: 'Pete Cordell'; Jonathan Rosenberg; Eric Burger > Cc: xcon@softarmor.com > Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message > definition language > > > (As chair) > > Thanks for taking some initiative on this issue. However, > I think we're jumping a little too far ahead. > > >From a charter perspective, we have two deliverables on the > topic of floor control: > > 1) Floor Control Protocol Requirements > 2) Floor Control Protocol Specification > > Of course, the requirements need to be nailed down before > the specification is completed. There have been several > microphone, hallway, and e-mail discussions in which people > have suggested various requirements on the floor control > protocol; we need someone to volunteer to compile these > in a document that we can form some consensus around. I > would think that having at least a -00 draft of such > requirements is a necessary first step before we start > discussing syntax and semantics of the actual protocol. > > /a > _______________________________________________ > XCON mailing list > XCON@softarmor.com > http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail2.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.31 [192.168.4.31]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT3KA6; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 03:59:57 -0400 Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by mail2.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9B7v7KW002442; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 03:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id h9B7xoZ28814; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:59:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id <T6537361ed7ac158f25186@esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com>; Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:59:50 +0300 Received: from esebe015.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.54]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:59:50 +0300 Received: from trebe004.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.232.177]) by esebe015.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:59:50 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:59:49 +0300 Message-ID: <481D6FFB3BD60E4CB590F39C59098400023E0A79@trebe004.europe.nokia.com> Thread-Topic: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Thread-Index: AcOPhiheoug7OzzYS4SC4+VHqyz6LAARdqow From: petri.koskelainen@nokia.com To: adam@dynamicsoft.com, pete@tech-know-ware.com, jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com, eburger@snowshore.com Cc: xcon@softarmor.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2003 07:59:50.0005 (UTC) FILETIME=[A540A250:01C38FCD] First version of floor control requirements document is available at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-koskelainen-xcon-floor-control-req-00.txt Comments are welcome.. -- Petri > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Adam Roach [mailto:adam@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: 11 October, 2003 02:22 > To: 'Pete Cordell'; Jonathan Rosenberg; Eric Burger > Cc: xcon@softarmor.com > Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message > definition language > > > (As chair) > > Thanks for taking some initiative on this issue. However, > I think we're jumping a little too far ahead. > > >From a charter perspective, we have two deliverables on the > topic of floor control: > > 1) Floor Control Protocol Requirements > 2) Floor Control Protocol Specification > > Of course, the requirements need to be nailed down before > the specification is completed. There have been several > microphone, hallway, and e-mail discussions in which people > have suggested various requirements on the floor control > protocol; we need someone to volunteer to compile these > in a document that we can form some consensus around. I > would think that having at least a -00 draft of such > requirements is a necessary first step before we start > discussing syntax and semantics of the actual protocol. > > /a > _______________________________________________ > XCON mailing list > XCON@softarmor.com > http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail2.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.31 [192.168.4.31]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT3J2F; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:24:12 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail2.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ANLMKW001015; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ANMcTv019331; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:22:39 -0500 Received: from mail4.dynamicsoft.com (dyn-tx-bapp-001.dfw.dynamicsoft.com [63.110.3.100]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ANMYTt019328 for <xcon@softarmor.com>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:22:35 -0500 Received: from DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com (dyn-tx-exch-001 [63.110.3.8]) by mail4.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ANMIiM000785; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <4JSRJRT2>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:22:18 -0500 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E864F9@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Adam Roach <adam@dynamicsoft.com> To: "'Pete Cordell'" <pete@tech-know-ware.com>, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, Eric Burger <eburger@snowshore.com> Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:22:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Cc: xcon@softarmor.com X-BeenThere: xcon@softarmor.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF XCON BOF <xcon.softarmor.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon> List-Post: <mailto:xcon@softarmor.com> List-Help: <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=subscribe> Sender: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Errors-To: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit (As chair) Thanks for taking some initiative on this issue. However, I think we're jumping a little too far ahead. >>From a charter perspective, we have two deliverables on the topic of floor control: 1) Floor Control Protocol Requirements 2) Floor Control Protocol Specification Of course, the requirements need to be nailed down before the specification is completed. There have been several microphone, hallway, and e-mail discussions in which people have suggested various requirements on the floor control protocol; we need someone to volunteer to compile these in a document that we can form some consensus around. I would think that having at least a -00 draft of such requirements is a necessary first step before we start discussing syntax and semantics of the actual protocol. /a _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@softarmor.com http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail2.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.31 [192.168.4.31]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT3JBS; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:49:55 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail2.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ALl5KW000672; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ALmxTv018950; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:49:02 -0500 Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9ALmwTt018947 for <xcon@softarmor.com>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:48:58 -0500 Received: from host213-122-184-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.184.234] helo=tkw) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A857x-0004CE-00; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:48:50 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c38f78$76ed0c40$0200000a@tkw> From: "Pete Cordell" <pete@tech-know-ware.com> To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>, "Eric Burger" <eburger@snowshore.com> References: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E85F@zoe.office.snowshore.com> <3F871860.5060906@dynamicsoft.com> Subject: Re: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:49:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Cc: xcon@softarmor.com X-BeenThere: xcon@softarmor.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF XCON BOF <xcon.softarmor.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon> List-Post: <mailto:xcon@softarmor.com> List-Help: <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=subscribe> Sender: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Errors-To: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com That was my point - If you don't feel using XML Schema from the off is the right thing to do, use Lumas as an abstract definition and then switch to what ever feels the right thing once you know what you're trying to code up. The tools are there to help you make that transition, or you could do it manually if you prefer. Of course you could invent your own abstract syntax, or you could mandate XML Schema (or maybe RELAX NG) from the start. (Just in case Eric was not understanding what I was saying, the ABNF generation stuff is just doing the handle turning that you could quite easily do manually if you chose to. A bit like you can use ABNF directly or you can run it through yacc and lex to save some of your coding effort depending on your fancy.) Pete. ============================================= Pete Cordell Tech-Know-Ware pete@tech-know-ware.com http://www.tech-know-ware.com +44 1473 635863 ============================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com> To: "Eric Burger" <eburger@snowshore.com> Cc: "Pete Cordell" <pete@tech-know-ware.com>; <xcon@softarmor.com> Sent: 10 October 2003 21:36 Subject: Re: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language > Can we please not start out this working group with the never-ending > debate on protocol syntax? I would rather focus on the protocol > semantics and functionality. > > -Jonathan R. > > Eric Burger wrote: > > > I would offer that anything plus sigcomp would have a message size on the order of a hand-coded binary format. > > > > Given that, I would offer an "anything" that was at least text based, so we can work out the protocol without lots and lots and lots of custom tools, and optimize it (sigcomp) later. > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Pete Cordell [mailto:pete@tech-know-ware.com] > >>Sent: Fri, October 10, 2003 6:31 AM > >>To: xcon@softarmor.com > >>Subject: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language > >> > >> > >>Dear All, > >> > >>I've recently joined this this list, but I was looking > >>through the archives > >>and noticed that there was mention that XML might not be the > >>best thing for > >>the floor control protocol and some sort of exercise might be > >>undertaken to > >>look for alternatives. > >> > >>I would like to put forward a candidate for consideration called Lumas > >>(Language for Universal Message Abstraction and Specification). > >> > >>The message definition language is along the lines of C, with > >>ideas stolen > >>from UML, Java, XML plus extras where appropriate. The goal > >>is to have a > >>compact representation that is easy for most regular programmers to > >>understand. For example, you might have: > >> > >>struct my-floor-control { > >> int<0..65535> participant-id as ?; // 'as ?' means > >>'do not tag' > >> Operation operation as ?; > >>}; > >> > >>Union Operation pluggable { > >> void request-floor as reqf; > >> void release-floor as relf; > >>}; > >> > >>A resulting message would be: > >> > >>12 reqf > >> > >>The language is highly extensible. For example in another > >>module you could > >>define: > >> > >>plug > >> union vote { void yes; void no; }; > >>into Operation; > >> > >>which would make the above union above (the pluggable keyword > >>declared it as > >>a site where this was allowed) to be treated as if it was: > >> > >>Union Operation pluggable { > >> void request-floor as reqf; > >> void release-floor as relf; > >> union vote { void yes; void no; }; > >>}; > >> > >>and an encoding would be: > >> > >>12 vote=yes > >> > >>There is more of a summary at: > >> > >> http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/lumas-example.html > >> > >>I have a full specification at: > >> > >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cordell-lumas-01.txt > >> > >>which I am progressing as an individual submission so that it > >>is available > >>to move to standards track if and when someone finds it > >>useful (otherwise I > >>think there is a bit of a chicken and egg type problem with > >>this sort of > >>thing). > >> > >>Currently there is a definition of how to encode messages > >>defined in Lumas > >>using text (as alluded above), but it would be equally > >>possible to define > >>rules for a binary conversion if required (I have notes on > >>this, but the > >>rules might be more extensible than you require). > >> > >>But the real benefit to this group maybe to simply use Lumas as an > >>information set representation language as an aid to evolving > >>the protocol. > >>I'm part way through developing a tool that converts the > >>message set in ABNF > >>(just need to make it a bit prettier!), and intend to do the > >>same for XML > >>Schema. So you could start out using Lumas and then at the > >>last minute, rip > >>all the Lumas out and insert automatically generated ABNF or > >>XML Schema > >>(although you might want to do a few tweaks to the output I > >>guess - target > >>namespace declarations etc). (In theory the same approach > >>could get it to > >>draw ASCII art TLV type pictures, but I'm not quite sure how > >>that would work > >>at the moment.) > >> > >>I have some free tools such as a validator and parsers for C > >>and Perl at: > >> > >> http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/ > >> > >>I intend to add the ABNF generator and then the XML Schema > >>generator to this > >>group soon. I also have a Lumas/C binding compiler that I'm > >>working on. > >> > >>I hope this can be of help to you. All the best, > >> > >>Pete. > >> > >>============================================= > >>Pete Cordell > >>Tech-Know-Ware > >>pete@tech-know-ware.com > >>http://www.tech-know-ware.com > >>+44 1473 635863 > >>============================================= > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>XCON mailing list > >>XCON@softarmor.com > >>http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > >> > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > XCON mailing list > > XCON@softarmor.com > > http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > > > > -- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza > Chief Technology Officer Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 > dynamicsoft > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@softarmor.com http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail1.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.30 [192.168.4.30]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT325H; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:37:59 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail1.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AKYmFh026766; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AKasTv018535; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:36:55 -0500 Received: from mail3.dynamicsoft.com ([63.113.44.69]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AKarTt018532 for <xcon@softarmor.com>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:36:53 -0500 Received: from dynamicsoft.com ([63.113.46.126]) by mail3.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h9AKatUg029160; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F871860.5060906@dynamicsoft.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:36:48 -0400 From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com> Organization: dynamicsoft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Burger <eburger@snowshore.com> Subject: Re: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language References: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E85F@zoe.office.snowshore.com> In-Reply-To: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E85F@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: xcon@softarmor.com X-BeenThere: xcon@softarmor.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF XCON BOF <xcon.softarmor.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon> List-Post: <mailto:xcon@softarmor.com> List-Help: <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=subscribe> Sender: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Errors-To: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Can we please not start out this working group with the never-ending debate on protocol syntax? I would rather focus on the protocol semantics and functionality. -Jonathan R. Eric Burger wrote: > I would offer that anything plus sigcomp would have a message size on the order of a hand-coded binary format. > > Given that, I would offer an "anything" that was at least text based, so we can work out the protocol without lots and lots and lots of custom tools, and optimize it (sigcomp) later. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Pete Cordell [mailto:pete@tech-know-ware.com] >>Sent: Fri, October 10, 2003 6:31 AM >>To: xcon@softarmor.com >>Subject: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language >> >> >>Dear All, >> >>I've recently joined this this list, but I was looking >>through the archives >>and noticed that there was mention that XML might not be the >>best thing for >>the floor control protocol and some sort of exercise might be >>undertaken to >>look for alternatives. >> >>I would like to put forward a candidate for consideration called Lumas >>(Language for Universal Message Abstraction and Specification). >> >>The message definition language is along the lines of C, with >>ideas stolen >>from UML, Java, XML plus extras where appropriate. The goal >>is to have a >>compact representation that is easy for most regular programmers to >>understand. For example, you might have: >> >>struct my-floor-control { >> int<0..65535> participant-id as ?; // 'as ?' means >>'do not tag' >> Operation operation as ?; >>}; >> >>Union Operation pluggable { >> void request-floor as reqf; >> void release-floor as relf; >>}; >> >>A resulting message would be: >> >>12 reqf >> >>The language is highly extensible. For example in another >>module you could >>define: >> >>plug >> union vote { void yes; void no; }; >>into Operation; >> >>which would make the above union above (the pluggable keyword >>declared it as >>a site where this was allowed) to be treated as if it was: >> >>Union Operation pluggable { >> void request-floor as reqf; >> void release-floor as relf; >> union vote { void yes; void no; }; >>}; >> >>and an encoding would be: >> >>12 vote=yes >> >>There is more of a summary at: >> >> http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/lumas-example.html >> >>I have a full specification at: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cordell-lumas-01.txt >> >>which I am progressing as an individual submission so that it >>is available >>to move to standards track if and when someone finds it >>useful (otherwise I >>think there is a bit of a chicken and egg type problem with >>this sort of >>thing). >> >>Currently there is a definition of how to encode messages >>defined in Lumas >>using text (as alluded above), but it would be equally >>possible to define >>rules for a binary conversion if required (I have notes on >>this, but the >>rules might be more extensible than you require). >> >>But the real benefit to this group maybe to simply use Lumas as an >>information set representation language as an aid to evolving >>the protocol. >>I'm part way through developing a tool that converts the >>message set in ABNF >>(just need to make it a bit prettier!), and intend to do the >>same for XML >>Schema. So you could start out using Lumas and then at the >>last minute, rip >>all the Lumas out and insert automatically generated ABNF or >>XML Schema >>(although you might want to do a few tweaks to the output I >>guess - target >>namespace declarations etc). (In theory the same approach >>could get it to >>draw ASCII art TLV type pictures, but I'm not quite sure how >>that would work >>at the moment.) >> >>I have some free tools such as a validator and parsers for C >>and Perl at: >> >> http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/ >> >>I intend to add the ABNF generator and then the XML Schema >>generator to this >>group soon. I also have a Lumas/C binding compiler that I'm >>working on. >> >>I hope this can be of help to you. All the best, >> >>Pete. >> >>============================================= >>Pete Cordell >>Tech-Know-Ware >>pete@tech-know-ware.com >>http://www.tech-know-ware.com >>+44 1473 635863 >>============================================= >> >>_______________________________________________ >>XCON mailing list >>XCON@softarmor.com >>http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > XCON mailing list > XCON@softarmor.com > http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Chief Technology Officer Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 dynamicsoft jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@softarmor.com http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail2.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.31 [192.168.4.31]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT32R5; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:17:12 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail2.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AJELKW029800; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AJF6Tv018026; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:15:07 -0500 Received: from webshield.office.snowshore.com (goalie.snowshore.com [216.57.133.4]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9AJF2Tt018023 for <xcon@softarmor.com>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:15:03 -0500 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 23611; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:21:35 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252; format=flowed Subject: RE: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:15:01 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E85F@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language Thread-Index: AcOPGlVI61QcjNDYQCW2ZVVxyLrt/gASEKNw From: "Eric Burger" <eburger@snowshore.com> To: "Pete Cordell" <pete@tech-know-ware.com>, xcon@softarmor.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by bdsl.greycouncil.com id h9AJF2Tt018023 X-BeenThere: xcon@softarmor.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF XCON BOF <xcon.softarmor.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon> List-Post: <mailto:xcon@softarmor.com> List-Help: <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=subscribe> Sender: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Errors-To: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com I would offer that anything plus sigcomp would have a message size on the order of a hand-coded binary format. Given that, I would offer an "anything" that was at least text based, so we can work out the protocol without lots and lots and lots of custom tools, and optimize it (sigcomp) later. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Cordell [mailto:pete@tech-know-ware.com] > Sent: Fri, October 10, 2003 6:31 AM > To: xcon@softarmor.com > Subject: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language > > > Dear All, > > I've recently joined this this list, but I was looking > through the archives > and noticed that there was mention that XML might not be the > best thing for > the floor control protocol and some sort of exercise might be > undertaken to > look for alternatives. > > I would like to put forward a candidate for consideration called Lumas > (Language for Universal Message Abstraction and Specification). > > The message definition language is along the lines of C, with > ideas stolen > from UML, Java, XML plus extras where appropriate. The goal > is to have a > compact representation that is easy for most regular programmers to > understand. For example, you might have: > > struct my-floor-control { > int<0..65535> participant-id as ?; // 'as ?' means > 'do not tag' > Operation operation as ?; > }; > > Union Operation pluggable { > void request-floor as reqf; > void release-floor as relf; > }; > > A resulting message would be: > > 12 reqf > > The language is highly extensible. For example in another > module you could > define: > > plug > union vote { void yes; void no; }; > into Operation; > > which would make the above union above (the pluggable keyword > declared it as > a site where this was allowed) to be treated as if it was: > > Union Operation pluggable { > void request-floor as reqf; > void release-floor as relf; > union vote { void yes; void no; }; > }; > > and an encoding would be: > > 12 vote=yes > > There is more of a summary at: > > http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/lumas-example.html > > I have a full specification at: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cordell-lumas-01.txt > > which I am progressing as an individual submission so that it > is available > to move to standards track if and when someone finds it > useful (otherwise I > think there is a bit of a chicken and egg type problem with > this sort of > thing). > > Currently there is a definition of how to encode messages > defined in Lumas > using text (as alluded above), but it would be equally > possible to define > rules for a binary conversion if required (I have notes on > this, but the > rules might be more extensible than you require). > > But the real benefit to this group maybe to simply use Lumas as an > information set representation language as an aid to evolving > the protocol. > I'm part way through developing a tool that converts the > message set in ABNF > (just need to make it a bit prettier!), and intend to do the > same for XML > Schema. So you could start out using Lumas and then at the > last minute, rip > all the Lumas out and insert automatically generated ABNF or > XML Schema > (although you might want to do a few tweaks to the output I > guess - target > namespace declarations etc). (In theory the same approach > could get it to > draw ASCII art TLV type pictures, but I'm not quite sure how > that would work > at the moment.) > > I have some free tools such as a validator and parsers for C > and Perl at: > > http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/ > > I intend to add the ABNF generator and then the XML Schema > generator to this > group soon. I also have a Lumas/C binding compiler that I'm > working on. > > I hope this can be of help to you. All the best, > > Pete. > > ============================================= > Pete Cordell > Tech-Know-Ware > pete@tech-know-ware.com > http://www.tech-know-ware.com > +44 1473 635863 > ============================================= > > _______________________________________________ > XCON mailing list > XCON@softarmor.com > http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon > > _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@softarmor.com http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail1.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.30 [192.168.4.30]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPT3HD7; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:31:36 -0400 Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.66.12.12.130.gte.net [66.12.12.130]) by mail1.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AASQFh023962; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdsl.greycouncil.com (bdsl.greycouncil.com [127.0.0.1]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AAUTTv015489; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:30:31 -0500 Received: from einsteinium.btinternet.com (einsteinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.147]) by bdsl.greycouncil.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AAUMTt015477 for <xcon@softarmor.com>; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:30:27 -0500 Received: from dial81-135-30-179.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.135.30.179] helo=tkw) by einsteinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A7uWw-00023H-00 for xcon@softarmor.com; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:29:54 +0100 Message-ID: <009201c38f19$a0cf4b40$0200000a@tkw> From: "Pete Cordell" <pete@tech-know-ware.com> To: xcon@softarmor.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:31:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [XCON] Candidate floor control message definition language X-BeenThere: xcon@softarmor.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF XCON BOF <xcon.softarmor.com> List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon> List-Post: <mailto:xcon@softarmor.com> List-Help: <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon>, <mailto:xcon-request@softarmor.com?subject=subscribe> Sender: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Errors-To: xcon-bounces@softarmor.com Dear All, I've recently joined this this list, but I was looking through the archives and noticed that there was mention that XML might not be the best thing for the floor control protocol and some sort of exercise might be undertaken to look for alternatives. I would like to put forward a candidate for consideration called Lumas (Language for Universal Message Abstraction and Specification). The message definition language is along the lines of C, with ideas stolen from UML, Java, XML plus extras where appropriate. The goal is to have a compact representation that is easy for most regular programmers to understand. For example, you might have: struct my-floor-control { int<0..65535> participant-id as ?; // 'as ?' means 'do not tag' Operation operation as ?; }; Union Operation pluggable { void request-floor as reqf; void release-floor as relf; }; A resulting message would be: 12 reqf The language is highly extensible. For example in another module you could define: plug union vote { void yes; void no; }; into Operation; which would make the above union above (the pluggable keyword declared it as a site where this was allowed) to be treated as if it was: Union Operation pluggable { void request-floor as reqf; void release-floor as relf; union vote { void yes; void no; }; }; and an encoding would be: 12 vote=yes There is more of a summary at: http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/lumas-example.html I have a full specification at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cordell-lumas-01.txt which I am progressing as an individual submission so that it is available to move to standards track if and when someone finds it useful (otherwise I think there is a bit of a chicken and egg type problem with this sort of thing). Currently there is a definition of how to encode messages defined in Lumas using text (as alluded above), but it would be equally possible to define rules for a binary conversion if required (I have notes on this, but the rules might be more extensible than you require). But the real benefit to this group maybe to simply use Lumas as an information set representation language as an aid to evolving the protocol. I'm part way through developing a tool that converts the message set in ABNF (just need to make it a bit prettier!), and intend to do the same for XML Schema. So you could start out using Lumas and then at the last minute, rip all the Lumas out and insert automatically generated ABNF or XML Schema (although you might want to do a few tweaks to the output I guess - target namespace declarations etc). (In theory the same approach could get it to draw ASCII art TLV type pictures, but I'm not quite sure how that would work at the moment.) I have some free tools such as a validator and parsers for C and Perl at: http://www.tech-know-ware.com/lumas/ I intend to add the ABNF generator and then the XML Schema generator to this group soon. I also have a Lumas/C binding compiler that I'm working on. I hope this can be of help to you. All the best, Pete. ============================================= Pete Cordell Tech-Know-Ware pete@tech-know-ware.com http://www.tech-know-ware.com +44 1473 635863 ============================================= _______________________________________________ XCON mailing list XCON@softarmor.com http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Received: from mail1.dynamicsoft.com (192.168.4.30 [192.168.4.30]) by DYN-EXCH-01.dynamicsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4JPTN8VR; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:53:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mail1.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h97JoE2V009052 for <adam@dynamicsoft.com>; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19561; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200310071953.PAA19561@ietf.org> From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> To: "IETF-Announce: ;" Cc: alan.johnston@mci.com, adam@dynamicsoft.com, xcon@softarmor.com Subject: WG Action: Centralized Conferencing (xcon) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:53:05 -0400 Sender: dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit A new IETF working group has been formed in the Transport Area. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Centralized Conferencing (xcon) ------------------------------- Current Status: Active Working Group Chair(s): Adam Roach <adam@dynamicsoft.com> Alan Johnston <alan.johnston@mci.com> Transport Area Director(s): Allison Mankin <mankin@psg.com> Jon Peterson <jon.peterson@neustar.biz> Transport Area Advisor: Allison Mankin <mankin@psg.com> Mailing Lists: General Discussion: xcon@softarmor.com To Subscribe: http://www.softarmor.com/mailman/listinfo/xcon Archive: http://www.softarmor.com/pipermail/xcon Description of Working Group: The focus of this working group is to develop a standardized suite of protocols for tightly-coupled multimedia conferences, where strong security and authorization requirements are integral to the solution. Tightly-coupled conferences have a central point of control and authorization (known as a focus) so they can enforce specific media and membership relationships, and provide an accurate roster of participants. The media mixing or combining function of a tightly-coupled conference need not be performed centrally, however. The scope of this effort is intentionally more narrow than previous attempts to standardize conferencing (e.g. centralized control), and is intended to enable interoperability in a commercial environment which already has a number of non-standard implementations using some of the protocols. Privacy, security, and authorization mechanisms are integral to the solution generated by the working group. This includes allowing participants to be invisible to all but the conference owner, or to be visible but participate anonymously with respect to some or all of the other participants. Authorization rules allow for participants and non-participants to have roles (ex: speaker, moderator, owner), and to be otherwise authorized to perform membership and media manipulation for or on behalf of other participants. In order to preserve these properties, the protocols used will require implementation of channel security and authentication services. Due to the centralized architecture of the WG, XCON's mechanisms will place requirements on the signaling protocol used between the focus and the participants. At a high level, the signaling protocol must be able to establish, tear down, modify, and perform call control operations on multimedia streams, including voice, video, and instant messaging, in both a centralized and distributed mixing architecture. SIP will be the reference session signaling protocol used for examples; however, none of the XCON solutions themselves will be signaling protocols, nor will XCON extend existing signaling protocols. Other signaling protocols than SIP may be used between the focus and participants, including non-IETF protocols, but the requirements and possible extensions needed for other signaling protocols to utilize the full functionality of the XCON architecture is outside the scope of XCON. The deliverables for the group will be: - A mechanism for membership and authorization control - A mechanism to manipulate and describe media "mixing" or "topology" for multiple media types (audio, video, text) - A mechanism for notification of conference related events/changes (for example a floor change) - A basic floor control protocol The initial set of protocols will be developed for use in unicast media conferences. The working group will perform a second round of work to enhance the set of protocols as necessary for use with multicast media after their initial publication. The following items are specifically out-of-scope: - Voting - Fully distributed conferences - Loosely-coupled conferences (no central point of control) - Far-end device control - Protocol used between the conference controller and the mixer(s) - Capabilities negotiation of the mixer(s) - Master-slave cascaded conferences The working group will coordinate closely with the SIPPING and MMUSIC working groups. In addition the working group will cooperate with other groups as needed, including SIP, MSEC, AVT, and the W3C SMIL working groups. In addition, the working group will consider a number of existing drafts as input to the working group. Goals and Milestones: Oct 2003 Submit Requirements for Membership Manipulation for publication as Informational Oct 2003 Submit Requirements for Basic Floor Control for publication as Informational Nov 2003 Submit Conferencing Scenarios document for publication as Informational Nov 2003 Submit Use Cases for Media Topology Control for publication as Informational Dec 2003 Submit Requirements for Media Topology Control for publication as Informational Feb 2004 Submit Basic Floor Control Protocol for publication as PS Mar 2004 Submit Notification Event package extension for conference related events for publication as PS May 2004 Submit Membership Manipulation Protocol for publication as PS Jul 2004 Submit Protocol for Media Topology Control for publication as PS
- [XCON] Maintenance on softarmor web site Thursday… Dean Willis
- [XCON] Re: [Sip] Maintenance on softarmor web sit… Dean Willis