Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt
"Jonathan Hansford" <jonathan@hansfords.net> Fri, 26 June 2015 10:43 UTC
Return-Path: <jonathan@hansfords.net>
X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC921ACD37 for <anima@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 03:43:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.712
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.712 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_ANIMAL=2.3] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y-fIqgfluYwm for <anima@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 03:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from webmail3.hi.local (www.outitgoes.com [79.170.40.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5074E1ACD27 for <anima@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 03:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by webmail3.hi.local with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from <jonathan@hansfords.net>) id 1Z8R65-0002AK-HB; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:43:01 +0100
Message-Id: <dd21791b6223be9c0f7da9dc061056258da8cf2e@webmail.hansfords.net>
From: Jonathan Hansford <jonathan@hansfords.net>
To: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>, Jonathan Hansford <jonathan@hansfords.net>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
X-Mailer: Atmail 6.6.0.11156
X-Originating-IP: 212.159.131.152
in-reply-to: <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575E932046@nkgeml505-mbx.china.huawei.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:43:01 +0100
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_d33dcf021ed30128641c16156d5f8bd6"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/-DaZWlIUFF1ilePLNqqVHdlLXfM>
Cc: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt
X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach <anima.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/anima>, <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/anima/>
List-Post: <mailto:anima@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima>, <mailto:anima-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 10:43:17 -0000
I'm thinking particularly about closed networks such as used by the military where budgets can be tight, capabilities have to be traded and replacement of many devices could occur in the 10+ years timescale. Consequently many (most?) devices could be stuck on IPv4 for a long period of time. In those types of environments, network management can be very labour intensive and the provision of autonomic networking could well be considered a far better investment than switching to IPv6, replacing a lot of expensive hardware that can only support IPv4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duzongpeng" To:"Jonathan Hansford" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "Michael Richardson" Cc:"Anima WG" Sent:Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:35:33 +0000 Subject:RE: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt Hi Jonathan: I think you are talking about the network in the enterprise and campus, where might be IPv4. This part of customs don’t care much about what technology is used underneath the network. They only care about the service layer. They want the detailed network information as transparent as possible. Autonomic network can surely fulfill these needs. Best Regards Zongpeng Du FROM: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] ON BEHALF OF Jonathan Hansford SENT: Friday, June 26, 2015 4:39 PM TO: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Duzongpeng; Michael Richardson CC: Anima WG SUBJECT: Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt There are some systems outside the Internet that have no urgent need to move to IPv6 and developers would rather focus on more urgent needs. Autonomic networking could well be one of those more urgent needs. Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- FROM: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" TO: "Duzongpeng" , "Michael Richardson" CC: "Anima WG" SENT: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:56:19 +0000 SUBJECT: Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt For something new like AN, where the standardised specs will take at least a couple of years to appear in anyone's products, where we do NOT have backward compatibility issues, where we do not address end systems for some years to come, I personally think it is insane to even consider IPv4. But I think we do have agreement that we start with IPv6 only, and just keep the door open, in case we need to support it. If the working group wants to do that, I'll change the text accordingly. Maybe a discussion for Prague? Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com [5]] > Sent: 25 June 2015 10:24 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Michael Richardson > Cc: Anima WG > Subject: RE: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft- > behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt > > Hi, Michael Behringer > > I agree that the default setting of the ACP could be IPv6-based, which may > make the communication across autonomic domains easier to implement. > > What I suggested is that we first have an IPv6-based ACP ready, and define > an IPv4-based one as an alternative option. > > Best regards > Zongpeng Du > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [6]] On Behalf Of Michael > Behringer (mbehring) > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 3:31 PM > To: Duzongpeng; Michael Richardson > Cc: Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: draft- > behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt > > Re-reading my own message, one thing to add: Brian has already stated that > GDNP is protocol independent, and it should be. Of course we want to > develop everything IP version independent wherever possible. > > But there has to be some default autonomic addressing, routing, and for > THAT we want to look at IPv6 only at this point. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [7]] On Behalf Of Michael > > Behringer (mbehring) > > Sent: 25 June 2015 09:25 > > To: Duzongpeng; Michael Richardson > > Cc: Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Action: > > draft- behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt > > > > OK, I think there is some confusion around this topic. > > > > A network with autonomic functions (we all agree that a fully > > autonomic network is not our main target for now) can support on the > > *data plane* any protocol the operator wants to use, including IPv4, > > appletalk and IPv8 (when it comes). > > > > The statement is for the signalling, messaging and other protocols > > INSIDE the ACP, used by Autonomic Service Agents. > > > > Autonomic Service Agents will be exposed to a developer community, and > > the vendors implementing the ACP. There is absolutely no reason to > > standardise more than one protocol for this purpose. > > > > MichaelR is right: You don't need to actively deploy IPv6 to use the > > ACP. It just happens. With one caveat: If you connect an NMS system > > into the ACP for "virtual out of band" usage, then that system needs > > to support IPv6. But that is typically not a problem, in our experience. > > > > In other words: We're saying that *autonomic functions* (which the end > > user isn't exposed to at all) are exclusively IPv6, but the network > > can provide any service the operator wants. Specifically, an autonomic > > function (running on an IPv6 control plane) may well negotiate > > addressing for IPv4 services. > > > > Michael > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com [8]] > > > Sent: 25 June 2015 04:06 > > > To: Michael Richardson; Michael Behringer (mbehring) > > > Cc: Anima WG > > > Subject: Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: [Anima] I-D Action: draft- > > > behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt > > > > > > Hi, Michael Richardson: > > > > > > I agree with your option. Perhaps ACP is not needed to be IPv6 only. > > > > > > Of course, an IPv6 only autonomic control plane is ok for all the > > > services in autonomic network, and the solution has the advantage of > > > simplicity as mentioned by Michael Behringer. > > > > > > However, the network operator may be more familiar with the IPv4- > > > base management. > > > In the beginning of the ACP deployment, the network operator may > > not > > > be very confident about the decisions made by the autonomic network. > > > Some kinds of monitoring jobs may be desired by the network operators. > > > At this time, the operator may want to see some IPv4 addresses. So, > > > perhaps we need to provide IPv4-based ACP as an option for these > > > parts of operators. Otherwise, we can only answer them "sorry, we > > > only support > > > IPv6 here". > > > > > > As IPv4 has been widely deployed, perhaps an IPv4-based > > autonomic > > > network will be accepted by more network managers at the beginning. > > > > > > Indeed, at this time, an IPv4-based ACP is not as mature as the > > > IPv6 one. Thus, perhaps some work needs to be done at this > > > direction. For example, as you mentioned, how can we get an address > > > instead of the ULA in IPv6. > > > > > > Best regards > > > Zongpeng Du > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [9]] On Behalf Of Michael > > > Richardson > > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:12 AM > > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) > > > Cc: Anima WG > > > Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic- > > > addressing-01.txt > > > > > > > > > Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > > > >> > IPv6 only: Autonomic processes should use exclusively IPv6, for > > > >> > simplicity reasons. > > > >> > > > >> I agree with this as long as it's an RFC 2119 SHOULD, i.e. > > > IPv4 could be used in > > > >> extraordinary circumstances. The GDNP design is fundamentally > > > IP- version > > > >> independent. > > > > > > > Yes, as long as it's really "extraordinary" ;-) That 2119 says > > > > "SHOULD" means like you need a really good reason to not do it. > What > > > > would such a good reason be? Just saying, in our implementation we > > > > often get the requirement "we want IPv4", and when you dig, > > > the reason > > > > is that they don't want to deploy IPv6, and that's the only > > > > reason Slippery slope... > > > > > > a) to respond to the immediate "we want IPv4" --- I'd just tell the > > customer > > > that it uses a custom link layer protocol that uses an ethernet type > > > different than 0x0800... just like CDP does :-) > > > (I don't think you need to "deploy" IPv6 to have an ACP...) > > > > > > b) the only thing I care about is that nobody is allowed to say, "but > > > mechanism XYZ does not exist in IPv4". That's all. I don't know if > > > we will need IPv6-only things, but maybe. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > >> Use-ULA: For these overlay addresses of autonomic nodes, we > > > use Unique > > > >> Local Addresses (ULA), as specified in [RFC4193]. An alternative > > > >> scheme was discussed, using assigned ULA addressing. The > > consensus > > > >> was to use standard ULA, because it was deemed to be sufficient. > > > > > > It might be that ULA is an IPv6-only feature. > > > I don't consider 10/8 to be the same, as it is not statistically > > > unique inside the AS. > > > > > > -- > > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > > Works > > > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org [12] > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [13] > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org [14] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [15] _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list Anima@ietf.org [16] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [17] Links: ------ [1] mailto:mbehring@cisco.com [2] mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com [3] mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca [4] mailto:anima@ietf.org [5] mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com [6] mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [7] mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [8] mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com [9] mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org [10] mailto:mbehring@cisco.com [11] mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca [12] mailto:Anima@ietf.org [13] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [14] mailto:Anima@ietforg [15] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [16] mailto:Anima@ietf.org [17] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
- Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-aut… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-aut… Michael Behringer (mbehring)
- Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-aut… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-aut… Michael Richardson
- [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D Acti… Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Michael Behringer (mbehring)
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Michael Behringer (mbehring)
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Michael Behringer (mbehring)
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Michael Behringer (mbehring)
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Jonathan Hansford
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Jonathan Hansford
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Jonathan Hansford
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Paul Duffy
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Michael Richardson
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng
- Re: [Anima] Whether IPv6 only for ACP? //RE: I-D … Duzongpeng