Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports
Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Fri, 07 June 2019 19:35 UTC
Return-Path: <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: babel@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ED3120058 for <babel@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.748
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a9ZQ8QrsCCvl for <babel@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-it1-x132.google.com (mail-it1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F8CD1200F3 for <babel@ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Jun 2019 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-it1-x132.google.com with SMTP id x22so4505578itl.2 for <babel@ietf.org>; Fri, 07 Jun 2019 12:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+Gvj0IcT5tADYSRqscrTbQ9azxH33jmIcf8Z86dFcL4=; b=rJZaPyiwMIR1/WSfxAn3v2AYY+Zy3OSZQkPbwcURJf4Ci4qAZkwr9W05nGFIBJgCBS WQF55w/rHFhXQEcXhK5XCoAKpc3yyUJ2/aitVi3N3s3D/wNjo0ULfcIfLAQOfwXurA7Y LKoZw53vXm00JibDhIi78J990hSla7m89hvgCmssdARJxC0xBrilA4BegOYbid0F542b y/KSo/MIriRf6PyOB6xkuPYRHC5Qao7/bHeFW9gXyDDi+HMNe+N5rz1qJG7xI99qlkx4 FB6pp4cb69SkrCKEY+e0THUSzKINMTt9+qlfegjIolbsHapk/LFPKSHyecdsGYqS5WIJ Ufyg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+Gvj0IcT5tADYSRqscrTbQ9azxH33jmIcf8Z86dFcL4=; b=Jjix30BaL7n0R0UtBfCBoG4xhLrYXSWU5AYXHAFuYZzljuwq/fvvcSclFq6XkabzBe 3eHw9reLT7WvQ//K8K9zTzwlrUFWuwQ9CXdKZjuTjCCS530rStB7R8tz8HKhMqE/1q34 lv4FPKtezhf4Rb+183UgkPjBSRA/TzuG+MOtYbyNugjQ0CzCL4lkl3w8fMuUClkGOSvx 0VzMULlSU1kGHKBIHM37XyerNQkcs3sVxiQdEF89tohf48Lr86jy3CXm1qCPzgJ1PhuZ cuOMNwNBbH8a2lh9uYCgOGw3r+tJc1HDhAUEZGVfwr9YPdvlrubL1Oln3bWjYSPB3of0 Mn/Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+iaBjW9kSHa8+P1iNCl+X+etzUuqkzfSM9u4kvjpFErvpw1PX OQT/OabAXSc4CsRnldNcxReOkwOBK0HOj1eVC3o=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxp/lrtohKHo6YKorfPEEpe6g+RQHijOn1TltHnkoYfdhdkn3fB8hYcwxC3tJBhLpgqSDupSGschK8MmkE7k7M=
X-Received: by 2002:a24:2792:: with SMTP id g140mr5881760ita.81.1559936156791; Fri, 07 Jun 2019 12:35:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAPDSy+45_gEo=SfLWnODa6jMqnUdC9a10nhL6ZxRLh7EXabxaw@mail.gmail.com> <87tvda7omc.wl-jch@irif.fr>
In-Reply-To: <87tvda7omc.wl-jch@irif.fr>
From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 15:35:45 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEEfE-2xbdN4wPLjt86Sf1v+=DS-3AKz9krkXGfLGy62NA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Babel at IETF <babel@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/babel/qIHFP8qEkmkylJfpfket_Y1vhpY>
Subject: Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports
X-BeenThere: babel@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "A list for discussion of the Babel Routing Protocol." <babel.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/babel>, <mailto:babel-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/babel/>
List-Post: <mailto:babel@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:babel-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel>, <mailto:babel-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 19:36:00 -0000
Hi, It seems to me that we have good reason to go for two ports. I don't think the IANA expert is trying to be bureaucratic; people's judgement can differ as to how hard we should be trying to conserve port number code points for future protocols and as to how good our reasons are. I think we should forge ahead with a TBD in the draft for the DTLS secure port if we can't get one with expert approval and, assuming the draft is approved by the IESG, we will get a port then. Thanks, Donald PS: I'm not sure I would say it is "usual" for protocols to have two ports, one for secure usage and one for insecure usage, but it is "common". =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 9:14 AM Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrote: > > > When the authors requested the new port from IANA, we received some pushback. > > The position of the IANA port expert was that UDP ports are a scarce resource > > and they strongly prefer to not allocate them unless it is necessary. > > In a healthy technical organisation, the administration helps the > technical folks get their stuff done. An organisation is ossified if the > bureaucacy feels they have the right to dictate the technical solutions. > > If there are technical reasons to use a single port, we should state them. > Under no circumstances should we agree to change our protocol in order to > make the bureaucrats happy. > > > So the question for the Babel WG is: is the separate port necessary? > > Antonin's original implementation implementation used a single port: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-babel-babel-over-dtls-00 > > > One possible solution could be for us to have unencrypted packets and DTLS > > packets share the same port. For that we can leverage the fact that all Babel > > packets start with a first byte set to 42, and say that DTLS packets use the > > same port, prefixed with 43 instead of 42. > > Yes, that's what I was arguing for back in 2018. However, I was put in > the minority by a number of wise people: > > - David argued that the whole point of DTLS is to use a standard DTLS > stack, and some DTLS stacks don't support using a single port for both > encrypted an cleartext traffic; > - David pointed out that Apple's DTLS implementation doesn't support > this mode of operation; > - Donald added that it is usual for IETF protocols to use separate ports. > > If the above points no longer stand, then please explain what has changed > since 2018. > > If these points still stand, then it is our duty to make the right > technical decision, IANA's impotence notwithstanding. We have a number of > options: > > - go speak with IANA again, stating clearly that using distinct ports > reflects WG consensus; > - should that fail, we could use an ephemeral port for DTLS, announce it > as a sub-TLV of multicast Hello (recall that DTLS uses unicast only); > - should that be considered to fragile, we can publish the draft with no > port assignment, and have implementations squat an unallocated port. > > > What are people's thoughts? > > None that can be expressed without profanity. > > (Please have a look at the IANA UDP port registry -- thousands of ports > have been allocated to completely undocumented obscure protocols, and > they're refusing to allocate a single port for a standards track document?) > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > babel mailing list > babel@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/babel
- [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports David Schinazi
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports Dave Taht
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports David Schinazi
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports Donald Eastlake
- Re: [babel] Babel over DTLS and UDP ports Juliusz Chroboczek