Re: [bess] Thought about "Application Routing" in draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage

[Joel Halpern Direct <[e-mail]>]

The way you are wording that third bullet, it looks like it is expecting 
the network (past the SD-WAN edges) to be looking for application 
identifiers in making the packet forwarding decisions.

Is what you are looking for:
   Selection of tunnels to be used for traffic subsets based on
   heuristic application identification to meet application
   oriented QoS goals?

Yours,
Joel

On 8/3/2020 12:35 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
> Adrian and Joel,
> Thank you very much for the suggestions.
> I have updated the description per your suggested wording:
> /Here are some key characteristics of “SDWAN” networks:/
> /-       Augment of transport, which refers to utilizing overlay paths 
> over different underlay networks. Very often there are multiple parallel 
> overlay paths between any two SDWAN edges, some of which are private 
> networks over which traffic can traverse with or without encryption, 
> others require encryption, e.g. over untrusted public networks. /
> /-       Enable direct Internet access from remote sites, instead 
> hauling all traffic to Corporate HQ for centralized policy control. /
> /-       Some traffic flows can be forwarded based on their application 
> identifiers instead of based on destination IP addresses. For example, 
> by placing the traffic flows onto specific overlay paths based on their 
> application IDs. /
> /-       The traffic flows forwarding can also be based on specific 
> performance criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, jitter) to 
> provide better application performance by choosing the right underlay 
> that meets or exceeds the specified criteria./
> Thank you very much.
> Linda
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 6:35 AM
> To: [e-mail]; Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>; 
> 'Najem, Basil' <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [bess] Thought about "Application Routing" in 
> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
> So Adrian does not feel like is a lone voice, let me agree publicly that 
> the terminology you are using is either wrong or more likely ambiguous 
> as to its purpose.  If you really want to use the term, define it 
> explicitly please.
> Yours,
> Joel
> On 7/31/2020 4:34 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>> Hi Linda,
>> 
>> Thank you so much for continuing to try to accommodate me. Please 
>> consider this my last attempt to fix this unless someone else on the 
>> mailing list joins in to support my opinion.
>> 
>> I do not believe the term “application forwarding” is either defined 
>> in the document or particularly meaningful. It is no better than 
>> “application routing” in this respect.
>> 
>> I think that you are trying to refer to “individual traffic flows 
>> associated with a specific application” (although you may intend to 
>> refer to “individual packets”). And you are either trying to describe 
>> how traffic is “classified” onto paths/tunnels (as in bullet 3) or 
>> trying to indicate how packets may be handled within the network 
>> (possibly bullet 4), or both.
>> 
>> You also have the use of an application identifier as a mechanism to 
>> classify traffic. If you go down that path you must discuss privacy 
>> and netneutrality even if all you have to say is that this function 
>> takes place within a private (enterprise) network where all users are 
>> assumed to be required to comply with the network operator’s usage rules.
>> 
>> I’ll stop now.
>> 
>> Once again, thanks for trying to make me happy 😊
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>> *From:*Linda Dunbar <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Sent:* 30 July 2020 23:34
>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Adrian,
>> 
>> Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions.
>> 
>> Per your suggestions, we have changed the wording to the following. Do 
>> you think it is clear?
>> 
>> Here are some key characteristics of “SDWAN” networks:
>> 
>> -Augment of transport, which refers to utilizing overlay paths over 
>> different underlay networks. Very often there are multiple parallel 
>> overlay paths between any two SDWAN edges, some of which are private 
>> networks over which traffic can traverse with or without encryption, 
>> others require encryption, e.g. over untrusted public networks.
>> 
>> -Enable direct Internet access from remote sites, instead hauling all 
>> traffic to Corporate HQ for centralized policy control.
>> 
>> -Some traffic can be forwarded based on their application IDs instead 
>> of based on destination IP addresses. For example, placing traffic 
>> onto specific overlay paths based on their application IDs.
>> 
>> -The Application forwarding can also be based on specific performance 
>> criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, jitter) to provide better 
>> application performance by choosing the right underlay that meets or 
>> exceeds the specified criteria.
>> 
>> If it is not clear, can you help to wordsmith it?
>> 
>> Linda Dunbar
>> 
>> *From:*Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:46 AM
>> *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Linda Dunbar
>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Hi Adrian;
>> 
>> Given the context in the document, I’d revert back to the original 
>> paragraph (my proposed text in the thread) and change “route/routed” 
>> to “forward/forwarded”.
>> 
>> Regards;
>> 
>> Basil
>> 
>> *From:*Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] 
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Sent:* July-28-20 10:07 AM
>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>> 'Linda Dunbar' <[e-mail] 
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* [EXT]RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> The issue I am trying to get at is that the text you have in the draft 
>> is unclear and probably going to explode.
>> 
>>   * We have an approximate solution for that
>> 
>> The secondary issue is whether you are talking about 
>> routing/forwarding within the network, or placing the traffic onto tunnels at the edge.
>> 
>>   * You are pretty clear on what you mean, and I am fine with that since
>>     it fits with my understanding of VPN.
>>   * Possibly Linda is thinking about how those tunnels are maintained
>>     and operated to meet the service levels that they offer. That would
>>     be (I think) out of scope for a BGP VPN
>> 
>> Maybe we can polish the paragraph in question to become…
>> 
>> Better user experience can be provided by placing traffic flows for an 
>> application onto tunnels over an underlay network that meet or exceed 
>> the specified performance criteria (e.g., packets delay, packet lose,
>> jitter) for those traffic flows.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>> *From:*Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>> *Sent:* 28 July 2020 14:28
>> *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; 'Linda Dunbar'
>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Let’s get back to what SD-WAN is doing: it can steer/forward the 
>> application traffic based on specified performance criteria value 
>> requirement. This criteria is set by the subscriber (user) to ensure a 
>> better experience (by choosing the best tunnel over an underlay). Not 
>> sure what’s the issue here Adrian? Can we capture this statement as 
>> per your suggestion and remove the word “route” (or routed) and 
>> replace it with “forward” (or forwarded)?
>> 
>> Regards;
>> 
>> Basil
>> 
>> *From:*Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] 
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Sent:* July-28-20 9:19 AM
>> *To:* 'Linda Dunbar' <[e-mail] 
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Najem, Basil
>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>; 
> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* [EXT]RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Thanks to both Linda and Basil,
>> 
>> My response is a little unthought as I am currently following two 
>> simultaneous sessions (sorry about that), but it seems to me that the 
>> answers from the two of you seem to be slightly at odds.
>> 
>> Basil is talking about steering whole traffic flows onto tunnels to be 
>> carried over the network; Linda is talking about routing individual 
>> packets within the network.
>> 
>> I would still caution you to avoid tying too tightly to the term 
>> “application”. A single application may generate multiple flows with 
>> different performance criteria and you will treat the flows differently.
>> Conversely, two applications may generate flows that have identical 
>> performance criteria.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
>> *From:*Linda Dunbar <[e-mail] 
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Sent:* 28 July 2020 14:05
>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Adrian,
>> 
>> You said:
>> 
>> /As will be seen from the Application Aware Networking (APN) effort, 
>> the concept of traffic flows being routed according to the identity of 
>> the application is made complicated by various privacy and security 
>> concerns, not to mention issues of registering application 
>> identities./
>> 
>> The "Application" doesn't necessary mean all the bits in the payload. 
>> The "Application" can be any criteria that Client has indicated to 
>> Network Operators, for example the IPsec SA header bits, the TCP/UDP 
>> port number, the Source Addresses, etc.
>> 
>> The network will not alter the forwarding behavior unless there is the 
>> request from the client to inform the network to forward their traffic 
>> based on its provided criteria.
>> 
>> This draft, which was written 2 years ago, is indeed to show that BGP 
>> can be effectively used to “/do something similar to APN: that is, to 
>> classify the service that a particular application-sourced flow wants 
>> to receive from the network”./
>> 
>> Since SDWAN is over different types of underlay networks, with 
>> different performance and security aspects, clients may want their 
>> specific traffic to traverse specific underlay networks, or specific peers.
>> 
>> Yes, indeed that the goal is to “ the packets are 'coloured' for 
>> routing and treatment in the network.”
>> 
>> There is another draft in IDR to describe the encoding “Color” or 
>> “IPsec SA ID”:
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata
>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-dunbar-idr-sdwan-edge-discovery%2F&amp;
>> data=02%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d8
>> 3545d5a4%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C6373179213533748
>> 40&amp;sdata=ljuFqIHRJbFcAox2pqZgWSQN6jODGvfT9%2Bn44PR9ta0%3D&amp;rese
>> rved=0 
>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdat
>> atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-dunbar-idr-sdwan-edge-discovery%2F&amp
>> ;data=02%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d
>> 83545d5a4%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374
>> 840&amp;sdata=ljuFqIHRJbFcAox2pqZgWSQN6jODGvfT9%2Bn44PR9ta0%3D&amp;res
>> erved=0>
>> 
>> Welcome your comments to that draft.
>> 
>> I will attend the APN side meeting on Thurs to understand more.
>> 
>> Linda Dunbar
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 7:10 AM
>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> Cc: [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> Subject: RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Thanks Adrian for your comment.
>> 
>> How about changing the paragraph to something like:
>> 
>> "The application can be routed based on specific performance criteria 
>> (e.g. packets delay, packet lose, jitter) to provide a better 
>> experience by choosing a tunnel over an underlay that meets or exceeds 
>> the specified performance criteria threshold for that application"
>> 
>> Regards;
>> 
>> Basil
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> 
>> From: Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>> 
>> Sent: July-28-20 8:01 AM
>> 
>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> 
>> Cc: [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> 
>> Subject: [EXT]Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> As Linda noted in her agenda slot today, 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage version 08 introduced a new 
>> paragraph in the Introduction that says:
>> 
>>      - The Application Routing can also be based on specific
>> 
>>         performance criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, jitter)
>> 
>>         to provide better application performance by choosing the 
>> right
>> 
>>         underlay that meets or exceeds the specified criteria.
>> 
>> Firstly, s/loos/loss/ 😊
>> 
>> But I am concerned by the concept of "application routing" and I note 
>> that the term is not used elsewhere in the document nor is the concept 
>> expanded upon.
>> 
>> As will be seen from the Application Aware Networking (APN) effort, 
>> the concept of traffic flows being routed according to the identity of 
>> the application is made complicated by various privacy and security 
>> concerns, not to mention issues of registering application identities.
>> 
>> Fortunately, I suspect that this draft wants to do something similar 
>> to
>> APN: that is, to classify the service that a particular 
>> application-sourced flow wants to receive from the network. This may 
>> be considerably more complex than DSCP, but the concept is the same 
>> that either a tunnel/pipe/flow is negotiated and established for use 
>> by the application, or the packets are 'coloured' for routing and 
>> treatment in the network.
>> 
>> I would suggest two things:
>> 
>> 1. Be a lot more clear about what is meant by "application routing" 
>> possibly even using a different term 2. Have a look at the APN work - 
>> side meeting on Thursday; see
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgith
>> ub.com%2FAPN-Community%2FIETF108-Side-Meeting-APN&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cl
>> inda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d83545d5a4%7C0fee8
>> ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374840&amp;sdata=J0U
>> SmGqeVz9pR5MmJRoOdTZFrmmJ8JiSFKAz4wuNgNs%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
>> hub.com%2FAPN-Community%2FIETF108-Side-Meeting-APN&amp;data=02%7C01%7C
>> linda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d83545d5a4%7C0fee
>> 8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374840&amp;sdata=J0
>> USmGqeVz9pR5MmJRoOdTZFrmmJ8JiSFKAz4wuNgNs%3D&amp;reserved=0>
>> for all the details
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Adrian
>> 
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