Re: [bess] Thought about "Application Routing" in draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage

["Joel M. Halpern" <[e-mail]>]

This wording is better.
there are still two aspects where I think we can be clearer.
First, referring to generic packet forwarding and only later saying "we 
mean tunnel selection" is still prone to confusing readers and prone to 
confusing discussions of our intent later when folks use this document 
for other work.
Second, it would be good if we could avoid wording that implies that 
application identifier is a field in the packet.  Some sort of wording 
that refers to it as a process performed by the SD-WAN edge is one way 
to improve it.   I tried suggesting it was heuristic (which it is) as a 
way to clarify it.  I am sure there are other ways.

Yours,
Joel

On 8/3/2020 1:08 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
> Joel,
> How about this statement?
> -      Some traffic flows can be forwarded based on their application 
> identifiers instead of based on destination IP addresses, by the edge 
> nodes placing the traffic flows onto specific overlay paths based on 
> their application requirement.
> It is more than " application oriented QoS goals". Some applications are 
> restricted to certain nodes. So regardless of the destination, their 
> traffic are placed in the Overlay path between those "certain nodes".
> Linda
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 11:52 AM
> To: Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 
> 'Najem, Basil' <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [bess] Thought about "Application Routing" in 
> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
> The way you are wording that third bullet, it looks like it is expecting 
> the network (past the SD-WAN edges) to be looking for application 
> identifiers in making the packet forwarding decisions.
> Is what you are looking for:
>     Selection of tunnels to be used for traffic subsets based on
>     heuristic application identification to meet application
>     oriented QoS goals?
> Yours,
> Joel
> On 8/3/2020 12:35 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>> Adrian and Joel,
>> Thank you very much for the suggestions.
>> I have updated the description per your suggested wording:
>> /Here are some key characteristics of “SDWAN” networks:/
>> /-       Augment of transport, which refers to utilizing overlay paths 
>> over different underlay networks. Very often there are multiple 
>> parallel overlay paths between any two SDWAN edges, some of which are 
>> private networks over which traffic can traverse with or without 
>> encryption, others require encryption, e.g. over untrusted public 
>> networks. /
>> /-       Enable direct Internet access from remote sites, instead 
>> hauling all traffic to Corporate HQ for centralized policy control. /
>> /-       Some traffic flows can be forwarded based on their 
>> application identifiers instead of based on destination IP addresses. 
>> For example, by placing the traffic flows onto specific overlay paths 
>> based on their application IDs. /
>> /-       The traffic flows forwarding can also be based on specific 
>> performance criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, jitter) to 
>> provide better application performance by choosing the right underlay 
>> that meets or exceeds the specified criteria./ Thank you very much.
>> Linda
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel M. Halpern <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 6:35 AM
>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>; Linda Dunbar 
> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>;
>> 'Najem, Basil' <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> Cc: [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> Subject: Re: [bess] Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage So Adrian does not feel like is a 
>> lone voice, let me agree publicly that the terminology you are using 
>> is either wrong or more likely ambiguous as to its purpose.  If you 
>> really want to use the term, define it explicitly please.
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>> On 7/31/2020 4:34 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>>> Hi Linda,
>>> 
>>> Thank you so much for continuing to try to accommodate me. Please 
>>> consider this my last attempt to fix this unless someone else on the 
>>> mailing list joins in to support my opinion.
>>> 
>>> I do not believe the term “application forwarding” is either defined 
>>> in the document or particularly meaningful. It is no better than 
>>> “application routing” in this respect.
>>> 
>>> I think that you are trying to refer to “individual traffic flows 
>>> associated with a specific application” (although you may intend to 
>>> refer to “individual packets”). And you are either trying to describe 
>>> how traffic is “classified” onto paths/tunnels (as in bullet 3) or 
>>> trying to indicate how packets may be handled within the network 
>>> (possibly bullet 4), or both.
>>> 
>>> You also have the use of an application identifier as a mechanism to 
>>> classify traffic. If you go down that path you must discuss privacy 
>>> and netneutrality even if all you have to say is that this function 
>>> takes place within a private (enterprise) network where all users are 
>>> assumed to be required to comply with the network operator’s usage rules.
>>> 
>>> I’ll stop now.
>>> 
>>> Once again, thanks for trying to make me happy 😊
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Adrian
>>> 
>>> *From:*Linda Dunbar <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>> *Sent:* 30 July 2020 23:34
>>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Adrian,
>>> 
>>> Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions.
>>> 
>>> Per your suggestions, we have changed the wording to the following. 
>>> Do you think it is clear?
>>> 
>>> Here are some key characteristics of “SDWAN” networks:
>>> 
>>> -Augment of transport, which refers to utilizing overlay paths over 
>>> different underlay networks. Very often there are multiple parallel 
>>> overlay paths between any two SDWAN edges, some of which are private 
>>> networks over which traffic can traverse with or without encryption, 
>>> others require encryption, e.g. over untrusted public networks.
>>> 
>>> -Enable direct Internet access from remote sites, instead hauling all 
>>> traffic to Corporate HQ for centralized policy control.
>>> 
>>> -Some traffic can be forwarded based on their application IDs instead 
>>> of based on destination IP addresses. For example, placing traffic 
>>> onto specific overlay paths based on their application IDs.
>>> 
>>> -The Application forwarding can also be based on specific performance 
>>> criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, jitter) to provide better 
>>> application performance by choosing the right underlay that meets or 
>>> exceeds the specified criteria.
>>> 
>>> If it is not clear, can you help to wordsmith it?
>>> 
>>> Linda Dunbar
>>> 
>>> *From:*Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2020 9:46 AM
>>> *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Linda Dunbar
>>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Hi Adrian;
>>> 
>>> Given the context in the document, I’d revert back to the original 
>>> paragraph (my proposed text in the thread) and change “route/routed”
>>> to “forward/forwarded”.
>>> 
>>> Regards;
>>> 
>>> Basil
>>> 
>>> *From:*Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>> *Sent:* July-28-20 10:07 AM
>>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>>> 'Linda Dunbar' <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* [EXT]RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> The issue I am trying to get at is that the text you have in the 
>>> draft is unclear and probably going to explode.
>>> 
>>>   * We have an approximate solution for that
>>> 
>>> The secondary issue is whether you are talking about 
>>> routing/forwarding within the network, or placing the traffic onto tunnels at the edge.
>>> 
>>>   * You are pretty clear on what you mean, and I am fine with that 
>>>since
>>>     it fits with my understanding of VPN.
>>>   * Possibly Linda is thinking about how those tunnels are maintained
>>>     and operated to meet the service levels that they offer. That 
>>>would
>>>     be (I think) out of scope for a BGP VPN
>>> 
>>> Maybe we can polish the paragraph in question to become…
>>> 
>>> Better user experience can be provided by placing traffic flows for 
>>> an application onto tunnels over an underlay network that meet or 
>>> exceed the specified performance criteria (e.g., packets delay, 
>>> packet lose,
>>> jitter) for those traffic flows.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Adrian
>>> 
>>> *From:*Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>>> *Sent:* 28 July 2020 14:28
>>> *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>; 'Linda Dunbar'
>>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Let’s get back to what SD-WAN is doing: it can steer/forward the 
>>> application traffic based on specified performance criteria value 
>>> requirement. This criteria is set by the subscriber (user) to ensure 
>>> a better experience (by choosing the best tunnel over an underlay). 
>>> Not sure what’s the issue here Adrian? Can we capture this statement 
>>> as per your suggestion and remove the word “route” (or routed) and 
>>> replace it with “forward” (or forwarded)?
>>> 
>>> Regards;
>>> 
>>> Basil
>>> 
>>> *From:*Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>> *Sent:* July-28-20 9:19 AM
>>> *To:* 'Linda Dunbar' <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>; Najem, Basil
>>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* [EXT]RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Thanks to both Linda and Basil,
>>> 
>>> My response is a little unthought as I am currently following two 
>>> simultaneous sessions (sorry about that), but it seems to me that the 
>>> answers from the two of you seem to be slightly at odds.
>>> 
>>> Basil is talking about steering whole traffic flows onto tunnels to 
>>> be carried over the network; Linda is talking about routing 
>>> individual packets within the network.
>>> 
>>> I would still caution you to avoid tying too tightly to the term 
>>> “application”. A single application may generate multiple flows with 
>>> different performance criteria and you will treat the flows differently.
>>> Conversely, two applications may generate flows that have identical 
>>> performance criteria.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Adrian
>>> 
>>> *From:*Linda Dunbar <[e-mail] 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>>> *Sent:* 28 July 2020 14:05
>>> *To:* Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>;
>>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Cc:* [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> *Subject:* RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Adrian,
>>> 
>>> You said:
>>> 
>>> /As will be seen from the Application Aware Networking (APN) effort, 
>>> the concept of traffic flows being routed according to the identity 
>>> of the application is made complicated by various privacy and 
>>> security concerns, not to mention issues of registering application 
>>> identities./
>>> 
>>> The "Application" doesn't necessary mean all the bits in the payload. 
>>> The "Application" can be any criteria that Client has indicated to 
>>> Network Operators, for example the IPsec SA header bits, the TCP/UDP 
>>> port number, the Source Addresses, etc.
>>> 
>>> The network will not alter the forwarding behavior unless there is 
>>> the request from the client to inform the network to forward their 
>>> traffic based on its provided criteria.
>>> 
>>> This draft, which was written 2 years ago, is indeed to show that BGP 
>>> can be effectively used to “/do something similar to APN: that is, to 
>>> classify the service that a particular application-sourced flow wants 
>>> to receive from the network”./
>>> 
>>> Since SDWAN is over different types of underlay networks, with 
>>> different performance and security aspects, clients may want their 
>>> specific traffic to traverse specific underlay networks, or specific peers.
>>> 
>>> Yes, indeed that the goal is to “ the packets are 'coloured' for 
>>> routing and treatment in the network.”
>>> 
>>> There is another draft in IDR to describe the encoding “Color” or 
>>> “IPsec SA ID”:
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdat
>>> a 
>>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-dunbar-idr-sdwan-edge-discovery%2F&amp
>>> ;
>>> data=02%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d
>>> 8
>>> 3545d5a4%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374
>>> 8 
>>> 40&amp;sdata=ljuFqIHRJbFcAox2pqZgWSQN6jODGvfT9%2Bn44PR9ta0%3D&amp;res
>>> e
>>> rved=0
>>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fda
>>> t 
>>> atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-dunbar-idr-sdwan-edge-discovery%2F&am
>>> p 
>>> ;data=02%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508
>>> d
>>> 83545d5a4%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63731792135337
>>> 4 
>>> 840&amp;sdata=ljuFqIHRJbFcAox2pqZgWSQN6jODGvfT9%2Bn44PR9ta0%3D&amp;re
>>> s
>>> erved=0>
>>> 
>>> Welcome your comments to that draft.
>>> 
>>> I will attend the APN side meeting on Thurs to understand more.
>>> 
>>> Linda Dunbar
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Najem, Basil <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 7:10 AM
>>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> Cc: [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> Subject: RE: Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Thanks Adrian for your comment.
>>> 
>>> How about changing the paragraph to something like:
>>> 
>>> "The application can be routed based on specific performance criteria 
>>> (e.g. packets delay, packet lose, jitter) to provide a better 
>>> experience by choosing a tunnel over an underlay that meets or 
>>> exceeds the specified performance criteria threshold for that application"
>>> 
>>> Regards;
>>> 
>>> Basil
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> 
>>> From: Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>
>>> 
>>> Sent: July-28-20 8:01 AM
>>> 
>>> To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]> 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> 
>>> Cc: [e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>> 
>>> Subject: [EXT]Thought about "Application Routing" in 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> As Linda noted in her agenda slot today, 
>>> draft-dunbar-bess-bgp-sdwan-usage version 08 introduced a new 
>>> paragraph in the Introduction that says:
>>> 
>>>      - The Application Routing can also be based on specific
>>> 
>>>         performance criteria (e.g. packets delay, packet loos, 
>>>jitter)
>>> 
>>>         to provide better application performance by choosing the  
>>>right
>>> 
>>>         underlay that meets or exceeds the specified criteria.
>>> 
>>> Firstly, s/loos/loss/ 😊
>>> 
>>> But I am concerned by the concept of "application routing" and I note 
>>> that the term is not used elsewhere in the document nor is the 
>>> concept expanded upon.
>>> 
>>> As will be seen from the Application Aware Networking (APN) effort, 
>>> the concept of traffic flows being routed according to the identity 
>>> of the application is made complicated by various privacy and 
>>> security concerns, not to mention issues of registering application identities.
>>> 
>>> Fortunately, I suspect that this draft wants to do something similar 
>>> to
>>> APN: that is, to classify the service that a particular 
>>> application-sourced flow wants to receive from the network. This may 
>>> be considerably more complex than DSCP, but the concept is the same 
>>> that either a tunnel/pipe/flow is negotiated and established for use 
>>> by the application, or the packets are 'coloured' for routing and 
>>> treatment in the network.
>>> 
>>> I would suggest two things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Be a lot more clear about what is meant by "application routing" 
>>> possibly even using a different term 2. Have a look at the APN work - 
>>> side meeting on Thursday; see 
>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
>>> h 
>>> ub.com%2FAPN-Community%2FIETF108-Side-Meeting-APN&amp;data=02%7C01%7C
>>> l
>>> inda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d83545d5a4%7C0fee
>>> 8 
>>> ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374840&amp;sdata=J0
>>> U
>>> SmGqeVz9pR5MmJRoOdTZFrmmJ8JiSFKAz4wuNgNs%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgi
>>> t 
>>> hub.com%2FAPN-Community%2FIETF108-Side-Meeting-APN&amp;data=02%7C01%7
>>> C 
>>> linda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C9eec1ed693124518fec508d83545d5a4%7C0fe
>>> e
>>> 8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637317921353374840&amp;sdata=J
>>> 0 USmGqeVz9pR5MmJRoOdTZFrmmJ8JiSFKAz4wuNgNs%3D&amp;reserved=0>
>>> for all the details
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Adrian
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --------
>>> 
>>> External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments 
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>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --
>>> 
>>> */External Email:/*/Please use caution when opening links and 
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>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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