Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.

Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> Wed, 17 March 2021 19:05 UTC

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From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.
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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 19:04:59 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/8ESqwBFalThGeiwPn_1qRwASKJk>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.
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Hi Jeffrey,

    Thanks for your comments.
    My responses are inline below with prefix [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
________________________________
From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 12:39 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>om>; bier@ietf.org <bier@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.


Hi Huaimo,



My comments were in three categories:



  1.  Nits – we can skip them now
  2.  About your statement about draft-merling. I need to digest your response so I’ll defer that to later and/or to Michael.
  3.  The flaw in multiple per-nbr FRR BIFTs



The first two are not really important to the adoption call and the direction of the BIER FRR document, but the 3rd one is.



As you said:



[HC]: Multiple failures handling is out of scope for now.



In my view, the following does handle multiple failures to maximum extent:

zzh> A better way is to simply have a single BIFT for both normal and FRR
forwarding. Each entry has some ECMP and/or primary/backup branches,
and you simply use another ECMP branch or a backup branch when the
normally used branch fails. A backup branch can go through completely
different nbr, or go through the same neighbor but via a tunnel.


[HC]: It seems that some ECMP and/or backup branches can be included

in the FRR BIFT.


Consider that and the cost associated with building/maintaining multiple BIFTs, I would argue that the multiple per-nbr FRR BIFT approach, while perhaps acceptable for a particular implementation, is not ready yet for WG adoption.


[HC]: There are some extra cost. It seems that the cost may not be too high since the size of the BIFT is not big.



Please note that I am not arguing against LFA based FRR. I am just saying that the reference model of a single BIFT with ECMP/primary/backup branches for an entry is the best baseline.


[HC]: The starting point is the LFA based BIER FRR.

We may include a single BIFT for comparisons.

Since this draft is experimental, we can select one

after some experiments and/or research on them are

done.



Jeffrey



From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2021 11:31 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>et>; bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Hi Jeffrey,



    Thanks for your comments.

    My responses are inline below with prefix [HC].



Best Regards,

Huaimo

________________________________

From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 5:41 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com<mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>>; bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org> <bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
Subject: Comments on draft-chen-bier-frr-02.



Hi Huaimo,

Please see my comments below.

Some are nits, but if I understand it correctly, the idea of using
multiple per-nbr FRR BIFTs is flawed.

[HC]: My statement below is right.

   [I-D.merling-bier-frr] proposes a tunnel-based fast re-route (FRR)
   ... Before the
   primary bit mask is recomputed and updated, some of BIER packets may
   be forwarded incorrectly.

Would like to see elaborations on why some of the packets may be
forwarded incorrectly - especially if you consider the approach
at the end of this mail.



[HC]: There are two forwarding entries for each BFER in the BIFT for FRR.

One is primary forwarding entry with primary bit mask and primary next hop.

The other is the backup forwarding entry with backup bit mask and backup next hop.

The backup next hop is the next hop of the neighbor.

All the primary forwarding entries in the BIFT have thier primary bit masks and

primary next hops that are computed before the failure of a neighbor.

When the failure of a neighbor happens, the BIER packets that

go to the neighbor as its next hop are forwarded to the next hop

of the neighbor using the backup forwarding entry.

All the other BIER packets that go to the other neighbors

as their next hops are forwarded to these next hops (i.e., primary next hops)

using the primary forwarding entries.

These primary forwarding entries with thier primary bit mask and primary next hop

are computed before the failure. After the failure, all the primary forwarding entries

will be recomputed and may be different from those before the failure.

>From the time at which the neighbor fails to the time at which

all the primary forwarding entries are recomputed and updated

based on the updated network topology after failure,

Some of the BIER packets that are forwarded using the old primary

forwarding entries may be lost.


   This document describes a mechanism for fast re-route (FRR)
   protection against the failure of a node or link in the core of a
   BIER domain, which resolves the above issue.  It is based on LFA,
   which is called LFA-based BIER-FRR.

Unicast FRR can be based on many mechanisms, and BIER FRR can simply
follow suit. It does not have to be limited to LFA or tunnel - simple
ECMP can also work if there are ECMP paths (if an ECMP branch is no
longer available you can simply take another one).



[HC]:  The draft about LFA-based BIER FRR does not mean other approaches

for BIER FRR cannot be used.

   In normal operations, the normal BIFT is used to forward BIER
   packets.  When a neighbor fails, the BFR as PLR uses the FRR BIFT for
   the neighbor to forward BIER packets.  For a BIER packet to traverse
   the BFR and the failed neighbor, the BFR reroutes the packet around
   the failed neighbor using the FRR BIFT for the neighbor.  For a BIER
   packet to traverse the BFR and any other neighbors, the BFR forwards
   the packet to its expected next hop neighbors using the forwarding
   entries with these BFR neighbors in the FRR BIFT.

I do not see why there is a need for per-neighbor FRR BIFT. It is also not
clear how the switch between normal BIFT and FRR BIFT is done - in fact
I think it is flawed - more on that later.



[HC]: In one implementation, we can have a BIFT pointer, which points

to the forwarding table that is used. In normal operations, the pointer

points the normal BIFT. When a neighbor fails, we can set the pointer to

the FRR BIFT for the neighbor. After the network convergence,

the normal BIFT is recomputed and updated based on the updated network

topology after the failure, we can set the pointer to the normal BIFT.

   From the BIRT on the BFR, a "Bit Index Forwarding Table" (BIFT) is
   derived.  In addition to having a route to a BFER in each row of the
   BIFT which is the same as the BIRT, it has a "Forwarding Bit Mask"
   (F-BM) in its each row.  For the rows in the BIRT that have the same
   SI and the same BFR-NBR, the F-BM for each of these rows in the BIFT
   is the logical OR of the BitStrings of these rows.

Need to be a bit more strict here. A row in BIFT is about a
particular BFER, which could be reached via two ECMP nbrs.
The F-BM is really for a nbr, not for a row. See Figure 6 in RFC8279.



[HC]: We will update accordingly.

   When a BFR receives a packet, for each BFER k (from the rightmost to
   the leftmost) represented in the SI and BitString of the packet, if
   BFER k is the BFR itself, the BFR copies the packet, sends the copy
   to the multicast flow overlay and clears bit k in the original
   packet; otherwise the BFR finds the row (i.e., forwarding entry) in
   the BIFT for the sub-domain using the SI and BitString as the key or
   say index, and then copies, updates and forwards the packet to the
   BFR-NBR (i.e., the next hop) indicated by the row (i.e., forwarding
   entry).

Strictly speaking, the BIFT is for <sub-domain, SI> (if we ignore
different bitstringLen), and the lookup key is 'k' not the entire bitstring.



[HC]: We may add some text to explain.

   The FRR-BIRT for BFR-NBR X of the BFR considers the failure of X and
   maps the BFR-id (in the sub-domain) of a BFER to the BFR-prefix of

A nit here - strictly speaking it's not that you map the bfr-id to bier
prefix in BIRT. BIRT is built based on how a BIER prefix is reached,
and the mapping is the other way around - you map the prefix to a BFR-id
when you derive the BIFTs from BIRT.



[HC]: It seems that this is based on some RFCs. I will double check.

   The BFR may build the FRR-BIRT for BFR-NBR X by copying its BIRT to
   the FRR-BIRT first, and then change the next hop with value BFR-NBR X
   in the FRR-BIRT to a backup next hop (BNH) to protect against the
   failure of X.  In other wards, for the BFR-id of a BFER in the FRR-
   BIRT for BFR-NBR X, if the next hop BFR-NBR on the path to the BFER
   is X, it is changed to a BNH when there is a BNH on a backup path to
   the BFER without going through X and the link from the BFR to X.

   If there is not any BNH to a BFER to protect against the failure of
   X, the next hop BFR-NBR X to the BFER in the FRR-BIRT for BFR-NBR X
   is changed to NULL.  For a multicast packet having the BFER as one of
   its destinations, if the next hop BFR-NBR to the BFER is NULL, the
   BFR does not send the packet to the next hop BFR-NBR NULL but drops
   it when X fails.

A nit - it's not that the packdet is dropped. Rather, the bit for that
BFER is simply cleared.



[HC]: We will update accordingly.

So for BFERs not affected by X's failure, they're still present in
X's FRR BIFT and are the same as in the normal BIFT. Keeping these
per-nbr FRR BIFTs with those unaffected entries
just does not make sense - you might as well have one BIFT in which
each row includes ECMP/backup branches. Of course, this is implementation
details/preferences, but:

- it's not good to specify this controversial implementation details
- switching to using FRR BIFT is actually flawed - see later comments.

[HC]: Switching between normal and FRR BIFT is described above.



   The forwarding procedure defined in [RFC8279] is updated/enhanced for
   a FRR-BIFT to consider the case where the next hop BFR-NBR to a BFER
   is NULL.  For a multicast packet with the BitString indicating a BFER
   as one of its destinations, the updated forwarding procedure checks
   whether the next hop BFR-NBR to the BFER in the FRR-BIFT is NULL.  If
   it is NULL, the procedure will not send the packet to this next hop
   BFR-NBR NULL but drop the packet.

A nit - not "drop the packet" but simply clear the bit.
Additionally, even when you do not support FRR you also have situations
whwere some BFERs are simply not reachable. In other words, clearing
the bit for those BFERs is the base requirement/assumption in RFC8279,
not a update/enhancement.



[HC]: We will update accordingly.

   The FRR-BIFTs will be pre-computed and installed ready for activation
   when a failure is detected.  Once the BFR detects the failure of its
   BFR-NBR X, it activates the FRR-BIFT for X to forward packets with
   BIER headers and de-activates its BIFT.  After activation of the FRR-
   BIFT, it remains in effect until it is no longer required.

Let's say this BFR has several BFR neighbors (including X and W).
X fails first and W fails instantly after that.
Which FRR BIFT do you use? X's FRR BIFT does not consider W's failure
and W's FRR BIFT does not consider X's failure, so using either one alone
has problems. Notice that this is different from the typical
"multiple failure" scenario - it's not that X and W may depend on each
other but it could be that some BFERs have a common backup neighbor Y, yet
if you use X's FRR BIFT then those BFERs normally reachable via W
are not protected now that W also fails. Similarly, if you use W's
FRR BIFT then those BFERs normally reachable via X are not protected
now that X also fails.



[HC]: We focus on single failure at one time. Multiple failures at the same

should be out of scope now. We may consider it in future.


That's why a single BIFT should be used for both normal and FRR forwarding,
just like in unicast case.

   The number of entries in a FRR BIFT is the number of BFERs.  Each FRR
   BIFT on a BFR can be compressed through combining all the entries
   with the same BFR-BNR and F-BM into one entry.  The number of entries
   in a compressed FRR BIFT is the number of neighbors of the BFR minus
   one.

   For example, the compressed FRR-BIFT for BFR C on BFR B is shown in
   Figure 7.  The number of entries in it is three, which equals the
   number (four) of neighbors of BFR B minus one.

                 +----------------+---------+------------+
                 |     BFR-id     |  F-BM   |  BFR-NBR   |
                 | (SI:BitString) |         | (Next Hop) |
                 +================+=========+============+
                 | 1, 4 (0:01001) |  01001  |     G      |
                 +----------------+---------+------------+
                 | 2, 3 (0:00110) |  00110  |     E      |
                 +----------------+---------+------------+
                 |  5 (0:10000)   |  10000  |     A      |
                 +----------------+---------+------------+

             Figure 7: Compressed FRR BIFT for BFR C on BFR B

   For a BIER packet with a BFR-ID as a destination, the entry
   containing the BFR-ID is used to forward the packet.

Not sure of the benefit of compression here. It makes the lookup more
complicated. If the memory consumption is a concern, just get rid of
per-nbr FRR-BIT and use a single one. Additionally, the F-BM and BFR-NBR
information can be considered forwarding information that can be pointed
at by multiple BIFT entries, so the above compression does not really
give you much savings.



[HC]: Compression is optional.

   Once BFR B detects the failure of its BFR-NBR X, after receiving the
   packet from BFR A, BFR B copies, updates and sends the packet using
   the FRR-BIFT for X on BFR B to avoid X and link from B to X according
   to the forwarding procedure defined in [RFC8279].

   For example, once BFR B detects the failure of its BFR-NBR C, after
   receiving the packet from BFR A, BFR B copies, updates and sends the
   packet to BFR G and BFR E using the FRR-BIFT for BFR C on BFR B to
   avoid C and link from B to C.

See earlier comments about failure of multiple neighbors (who do not
use each other for backup). Using a per-nbr FRR BIFT not only is
unnecessary, but also has problems.

[HC]: Multiple failures handling is out of scope for now.

A better way is to simply have a single BIFT for both normal and FRR
forwarding. Each entry has some ECMP and/or primary/backup branches,
and you simply use another ECMP branch or a backup branch when the
normally used branch fails. A backup branch can go through completely
different nbr, or go through the same neighbor but via a tunnel.

Jeffrey

Juniper Business Use Only



Juniper Business Use Only


Juniper Business Use Only