Re: [CCAMP] The hat trick

John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> Mon, 28 January 2013 19:40 UTC

Return-Path: <jdrake@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: ccamp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ccamp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7631621F86EF for <ccamp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:40:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.992
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.992 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.475, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLuyi-eyY2eg for <ccamp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:39:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from exprod7og121.obsmtp.com (exprod7og121.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B5B21F886D for <ccamp@ietf.org>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:39:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob121.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUQbUCcgKWsa7f1jHdQjDHAQNlHMHo7n3@postini.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:39:53 PST
Received: from P-CLDFE01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.59) by P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:37:19 -0800
Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:37:19 -0800
Received: from CO9EHSOBE038.bigfish.com (207.46.163.26) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:39:38 -0800
Received: from mail207-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.254) by CO9EHSOBE038.bigfish.com (10.236.130.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:18 +0000
Received: from mail207-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail207-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B366600CD for <ccamp@ietf.org.FOPE.CONNECTOR.OVERRIDE>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.101; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:BL2PRD0510HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT
X-SpamScore: -14
X-BigFish: PS-14(zz9371I1503M542Id79ah1432I11f6Nzz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzzz2dh2a8h668h839h944hd25hf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh15d0h162dh1631h1758h18e1h1155h)
Received: from mail207-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail207-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 1359401836192156_30857; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:16 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from CO9EHSMHS009.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.251]) by mail207-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCD494004C; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:16 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from BL2PRD0510HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.101) by CO9EHSMHS009.bigfish.com (10.236.130.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:16 +0000
Received: from BL2PRD0510MB349.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.1.86]) by BL2PRD0510HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.100.38]) with mapi id 14.16.0257.004; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:10 +0000
From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
Thread-Topic: The hat trick
Thread-Index: Ac39ZaelYtW7hPW6Q/qy/QKuSXA6zAAJ8ofQ
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:37:09 +0000
Message-ID: <0182DEA5604B3A44A2EE61F3EE3ED69E0B710C3A@BL2PRD0510MB349.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CDAC6F6F5401B245A2C68D0CF8AFDF0A1915F9E4@atl-srv-mail10.atl.advaoptical.com>
In-Reply-To: <CDAC6F6F5401B245A2C68D0CF8AFDF0A1915F9E4@atl-srv-mail10.atl.advaoptical.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [66.129.224.52]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn%
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%ADVAOPTICAL.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%ATT.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net
X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%LABN.NET$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net
Cc: CCAMP <ccamp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [CCAMP] The hat trick
X-BeenThere: ccamp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion list for the CCAMP working group <ccamp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ccamp>, <mailto:ccamp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ccamp>
List-Post: <mailto:ccamp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ccamp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ccamp>, <mailto:ccamp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:40:02 -0000

Igor,

I don't think Lou or Adrian would approve of my replying to your email.

Seriously, I think they would be the first to tell you that I have a rather jaundiced opinion of anything they say, regardless of what hat they are wearing.  If you remember, I pushed back against both Lou and Julien regarding their desire to have multiple switching type values for the same switching technology and they eventually agreed.

When listening to a WG chair or AD speak, the trick is to imagine them doing so wearing a dunce hat.

Irrespectively Yours,

John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:45 AM
> To: John E Drake; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
> Cc: CCAMP; adrian@olddog.co.uk; Lou Berger (lberger@labn.net)
> Subject: The hat trick
> 
> John,
> 
> You said:
> 
>           I disagree.  Airing dirty laundry in public is too
> entertaining to stop.
> 
> All right then, here is another topic for you.
> 
> You are very respectable IETFer and seem to be here forever (certainly
> since I can remember myself). I wonder what do you (and other CCAMPers)
> think about these cute little "My hat on/off" statements? That's
> right, the ones that IETF ADs and WG Chairs do with a coquettish smile
> quite often at IETF meetings and on the mailing lists. The assumption
> is, of course, that the things must be said by ADs/Chairs and
> interpreted by the audience differently depending on whether the hat is
> said to be in "on" or "off" position. This is a quite safe and
> reasonable assumption, if one designs a signaling protocol for network
> elements, for which it is possible to set proper filters, program
> processing rules and maintain a separate independent state for each
> conversation. However, ADs, Chairs and the audience are humans, i.e.
> they are not very good at compartmentalizing the information in non-
> overlapping memory spaces. When I, for one, hear or read an
> AD's/Chair's statement, the statement always carries the AD/Chair
> weight.
> 
> Let's take an example. Consider in a middle of a heated technical
> discussion on a CCAMP WG session,  Adrian comes up to the mike and
> makes his hat-off comment. What does this exactly mean? Does it mean
> that Adrian may have a separate hat-on opinion, that is opposite or
> perpendicular to what he just said? I don't think so. The way I see it,
> Adrian, being an excellent expert in many areas, has developed an
> opinion that he genuinely believes may help the discussion.  But, being
> also very professional, Adrian believes that at this level of
> discussion (or for whatever other reasons) it is somewhat inappropriate
> for an AD to influence the discussion. The end result of the statement
> is as follows. I, Igor Bryskin, am sitting in the audience and just
> heard a statement that might very well influence the discussion and its
> outcome. The statement came from Adrian Farrel, who happens to be one
> of the Routing Area ADs (and I don't forget about this for a second) at
> the precise moment when according to Adrian himself it is inappropriate
> for an AD to influence the discussion. I might remember the statement
> for quite a while, and I may communicate the statement to other some 37
> people. What I will immediately forget is what Adrian has said about
> his hat, and this information will be lost on me and these 37 poor
> souls. I am sure that the same happens to most (if not all) of the
> crowd. I have never read, for example,  emails like:
> 
> " Dear Adrian (with your AD hat on)! Thank you very much for your
> thoughtful comments on our draft...." or "Adrian (with his AD hat off)
> suggested to use his favorite LSP_ATTRIBUTES object, but I don't hate
> this idea and since it was suggested with the hat off, I think it is Ok
> to simply ignore the suggestion".
> Nor I remember a conversation like:
> "Igor, listen, I am about to make my XYZ draft last call vote. When Lou
> made this comment on the ASSOCIATION object, could you tell me where
> his hat was?" "Sorry, John, I have to come back to you with that: I
> have to go through the meetings minutes as well as through some 1013
> emails that Lou has posted on the list since then. I am afraid, you
> will be late with your vote"
> 
> Furthermore, ADs and Chairs do not talk just on the sessions and
> mailing lists. There are also private emails, telephone calls, face-to-
> face meetings even bar conversations. Call me a pessimist, but I doubt
> that in all these circumstances ADs/Chairs do not forget to update
> their hat status (especially in the bar). So, the point is that the
> "Hat on/off" thing does not really work as intended, which is not a
> problem per-se. The problem is that intentionally or unintentionally
> this opens up ways for quite unfair play.
> 
> I don't know what you, John, know about football (soccer), but imagine
> a match between two teams - one in red, one in white - and there is a
> guy on the pitch with a hat: when the hat is on, the guy is the umpire
> of the game, when the hat is off, he is a striker for the reds. You can
> imagine a lot of funny things happening in such a game. For example,
> the guy with his umpire hat on can pick up a proper situation and
> moment, stop the game and grant a penalty against whites. Then, with
> the hat off, he can take the penalty and score for the reads. And when
> it looks like the whites are about to score the equalizer, the guy can
> put his umpire hat back, blow the whistle and say: "Time is up, game is
> over, reds won". Fortunately such a thing cannot happen in soccer: not
> only a guy cannot be in the same game an umpire and a player of one of
> the teams, an umpire cannot be associated in any way with one team more
> than with the other (an umpire cannot be even from the same city or
> country as one team but not the other). Why is that? Simple, to ensure
> fair play, so that a better, more deserving team wins and moves into
> the next round, while the bad team loses and gets kicked out of the
> competition. That's what makes soccer such a beautiful game, by far the
> most popular in the world: simple well thought through rules and fair
> play".
> 
> If you don't like my analogy with soccer, consider a criminal case
> trial in the court of law, where the judge is saying something like
> this: " With my judge hat off I have to say that I agree completely
> with the defense. Also in my previous life I was both defense and
> district attorney, and my experience of being involved in such or
> similar cases tells me that in 80% of the cases the defendant ends up
> verdicted as not guilty. Now, with my judge hat back on, please,
> proceed ...."
> 
> You may disagree with any of these analogies, but I hope you see where
> I am getting at. With the hat trick It is quite possible to influence
> the IETF game (which is creating RFCs) with the end result that it is
> possible for poor architectures and bad solutions to make into useless
> RFCs, while for good ideas to be killed and forgotten.
> Here is a simple question: When a WG Chair systematically pushes one
> solution while vigorously fights off an alternative one, does it matter
> whether the Chair is doing this with his hat on or off, considering
> that at the end of the day the Chair is the only one (along with co-
> Chairs) who gets to make a call on rough consensus and hence to decide
> which solution wins?
> 
>  I say, no it does not matter, and this is unfair to you, John, because
> while the Chair can take off his hat at any time, you, as a potential
> (co-)author of the alternative solution, cannot put the WG Chair hat on
> and overrule the call on the consensus. I suggest we nail down the hats
> to AD/Chair heads and outlaw the hat trick to be used as an excuse. In
> my opinion, WG chair is, figuratively speaking, 75% soccer umpire and
> 25% soccer coach, but never a soccer player.
> 
> Does this make sense? Sorry for the long email.
> 
> Cheers,
> Igor