Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question
Mike Ounsworth <Mike.Ounsworth@entrust.com> Sun, 17 March 2024 21:45 UTC
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From: Mike Ounsworth <Mike.Ounsworth@entrust.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <Cfrg@irtf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] [CFRG] pq firmware signing question
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Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 21:45:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question
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Stephen. Short answer: firmware verification keys burned into ROM or some other immutable trust store which is itself outside the memory space of the firmware that you can update. I am not myself a hardware manufacturer, but I have been lead to believe that this is common practice. - Mike Ounsworth ________________________________ From: CFRG <cfrg-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 7:41:33 AM To: cfrg@irtf.org <Cfrg@irtf.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [CFRG] pq firmware signing question Hiya, A number of people have asserted that firmware signing implies distributing a public value now, (or soon) on which they may still have to rely after a CRQC might exist. The implication being that we should start to do this kind of thing now, based on some composite sig-alg, verification of which is assumed to be implemented below the crypto APIs used by relevant applications. I'd like to try tease bits of that apart to better understand what's required. ISTM that firmware signing entirely does allow one to update the signature keys/algs needed for the next signed firmware update and that there is no need, given ongoing updates, to continue to depend on the original key/alg for the public value with which a device was shipped. IOW, update N can update anything, including the sig alg required for update N+1. I don't understand what class of device might be able to load new firmware but not change the verification alg for sigs on subsequent updates. If there are such devices, can someone describe 'em? There does seem to be an exception - a factory-reset of a device would imply returning to depending on the original public value and alg. However, a factory reset also seems to imply that a human can "touch"/control a specific device at a specific point in time so is not an unattended upgrade. And if someone can touch the device, then in many cases it'd be cheaper to replace the whole thing than do a factory reset in the field. And then there's the issue of the specific signing key - it's hard to imagine a system where that can be changed but the verification alg cannot. Are there such systems? All in all, it seems like a lot of firmware signing deployments should be able to allow for the evolution of verification algs, and the set of devices where we now (or soon) need to embed a forever-fixed alg and key for sig verification has to be very small. What am I getting wrong there? Ta, S. Any email and files/attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If this message has been sent to you in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose of the information it contains. Please notify Entrust immediately and delete the message from your system.
- [CFRG] pq firmware signing question Stephen Farrell
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Stephen Farrell
- Re: [CFRG] pq firmware signing question Dr. Pala
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signi… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signi… Orie Steele
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Stephen Farrell
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Kris Kwiatkowski
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signi… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Falko Strenzke
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question John Mattsson
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] pq firmware signing question Michael StJohns