Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie
Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Thu, 08 September 2016 05:53 UTC
Return-Path: <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
X-Original-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B955A12B0AD for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 22:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.708
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.708 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=auckland.ac.nz
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t9hHC1aWAEWB for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 22:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx4.auckland.ac.nz (mx4.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.125.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6967912B307 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 22:53:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=auckland.ac.nz; i=@auckland.ac.nz; q=dns/txt; s=mail; t=1473314016; x=1504850016; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=aVU9b6wf80/0Pa9fna8MZ+xwE6BoGk8nmiRHzBt809w=; b=UYMUcboEeotT9HKGjudSGL+9RSxaCKsav8Ow5H4DIB0eIiJqBowVKg0n aNTxNP8tpwrKwiuXPlA0O2O5h7f1KJ3to5h1IZ/btJSztFgFqcWIN4dR4 aIpnn25UTipl9BXOFk49pUkCjdaSCz1BfmqYGm24DdmsrVU1iBYAm1bix 0h3v+b9SImBuA5IzgTlrXrxAWps0McEJbCHv3VZJl9XmtqbJjpWs/Iy5R PrynbwbwJo875XVtmus4iCpeQ05nLXILJ5N8pKUazQwdyIJcvadYaJ4UF YfgEdq3B5NzhbCFxUcc/Jiy0JN3y487MKyWIqUbQRc1TRdO6QJPq1TRXp g==;
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.30,298,1470657600"; d="scan'208";a="105144923"
X-Ironport-HAT: MAIL-SERVERS - $RELAYED
X-Ironport-Source: 10.6.2.3 - Outgoing - Outgoing
Received: from uxcn13-ogg-b.uoa.auckland.ac.nz ([10.6.2.3]) by mx4-int.auckland.ac.nz with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 08 Sep 2016 17:53:30 +1200
Received: from uxcn13-tdc-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.3.5) by uxcn13-ogg-b.UoA.auckland.ac.nz (10.6.2.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:53:30 +1200
Received: from uxcn13-tdc-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([fe80::8081:99e3:dee2:203]) by uxcn13-tdc-d.UoA.auckland.ac.nz ([fe80::8081:99e3:dee2:203%14]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 17:53:30 +1200
From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: Richard Hartmann <richih.mailinglist@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie
Thread-Index: AQHSCOYwtgYqMp52KUWzQpy/H6FTjaBvGI68
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 05:53:29 +0000
Message-ID: <1473314009688.88774@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
References: <m2lgzcyhxi.fsf@bos-mpeve.kendall.corp.akamai.com> <201608311948.u7VJmChl018731@rumpleteazer.rhmr.com> <CABrd9STOCbBo=g22XySRnWofHwVZkrC-ripZY38yLRZV2kQh3A@mail.gmail.com> <sjminu8vk1t.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <1473221674611.89839@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, <CAD77+gSWkttd1_r75GFvZgWotqMZtH0ry5Qw62n-jZkU8mJQGA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAD77+gSWkttd1_r75GFvZgWotqMZtH0ry5Qw62n-jZkU8mJQGA@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-NZ, en-GB, en-US
Content-Language: en-NZ
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [130.216.158.4]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/OKRvzBqbz-9cUnkM7HSKiz_e6ak>
Cc: "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie
X-BeenThere: cfrg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group <cfrg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cfrg/>
List-Post: <mailto:cfrg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 05:53:40 -0000
Richard Hartmann <richih.mailinglist@gmail.com> writes: >Is it correct when I say that the embedded programmers you talked to don't >care about any form of DES as they need/must/prefer to do AES, anyway? The only data point I have is that every time I've tried to disable DES in a new release (and by DES I mean single DES, not 3DES) I've had a chorus of complaints about it vanishing. Unfortunately I don't have anything more than that, you only find out about things like this when they break stuff. Certainly DES still sees a surprising amount of use, and in many cases it's quite justified, whatever you're protecting is adequately safeguarded with DES. For example burglar alarms, if they use real encryption (far too many use "encryption" that would more accurately be described as data masking), often use DES, no doubt based on Microchip App Note 583 or freely available source like despiccable, which runs in 20 bytes of RAM (if your burglar alarm is advertised as having a "RISC based CPU" then it's probably using a PIC, having a processor so spartan it can barely add is now a marketing feature if you use the right name for it). They'll be using DES forever, because the entire environment they operate in runs DES. >If yes, there's no reason in the embedded world that would prevent a >diediedie. See above. You're not going to get rid of DES. And, as I've pointed out earlier, the embedded world won't even know your diediedie exists, and if it's pointed out to them they'll ignore it. Alarms, for example, send data quantities measured in bytes, so some academic attack that would take 500 million years to acquire the necessary data isn't going to lose anyone any sleep. It's a nice piece of work, but you need to look at what practical effect it has on real, deployed systems... Peter.
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Viktor Dukhovni
- [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie david wong
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [SSH] [TLS] 3DES diediedie denis bider (Bitvise)
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [Cfrg] [SSH] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [SSH] [TLS] 3DES diediedie David Jacobson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hanno Böck
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Иван Лавриков
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Karthikeyan Bhargavan
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: [TLS] 3DES died… Rene Struik
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Dave Garrett
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Jon Callas
- Re: [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: [TLS] 3DES … Jon Callas
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: [TLS] 3DES … Rene Struik
- Re: [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: [TLS] 3DES … Greg Rose
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Brian Sniffen
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Watson Ladd
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Dave Garrett
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Philip Levis
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Salz, Rich
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Yoav Nir
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [Cfrg] [TLS] 3DES diediedie denis bider (Bitvise)